Looking for a specific pali sutta

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John P, modified 10 Years ago at 2/3/14 5:02 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 2/3/14 5:02 PM

Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 155 Join Date: 1/24/12 Recent Posts
Hey, I am trying to find a pali sutta I read before.

It was something like this: In it, someone asked the buddha about what are the beliefs necessary to follow the buddhadharma. And the buddha answered that, when feeling a sensation, you believe that you felt that sensation, then that was enough faith.

I might have missed some details. Does someone know which sutta is this? I saw it in www.accesstoinsight.org and no, it's not canki sutta or kalama sutta, and it was relatively short

Thanks
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 7:34 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 7:26 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
If you can recall any of the literal key words in the quotation, one method is to look in the indeces to the Nikaya volumes  and search through, examine the text from each reference there.

That would be the Digha-, Majjhima-, Anguttara-, Samyutta-Nikayas, even the Sutta Nipata, Dhammapada, Udana, etc. in translations that are indexed.

Time-consuming, but s/t works.

From what you describe, it could be in several suttas.

If you can characterize the basic theme, the Samyatta Nikaya is a good place to start. The structure of that collection is to group together lots of little suttas with variations on the same theme; often very minor variations so that many nearly identical suttas are given.

According to Ajahn Sujato (in his book A History of Mindfulness), the Samyutta Nikaya is also arguably the repository of, by and large, the earliest strata of the written-down suttas.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 8:10 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 8:10 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
It is not in the suttas.  It is wrong.

You need to believe in what you percieve, but you must also question what you percieve.  Therefore, it is not in Suttas.

For clarification: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/prajparagen2.pdf
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 10:28 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/23/14 10:27 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Looks like it might be the Vedana Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.005.than.html )?
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At Savatthi. "Monks, feeling born of eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
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Nicky, modified 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 7:12 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 7:11 AM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 484 Join Date: 8/2/14 Recent Posts
Also MN 37 may cover it. emoticon

~~Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is foremost among gods and humans.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Culatanhasankhaya_Sutta.htm
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 11:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 11:16 AM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
^Best Answer   *bows*
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 1:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 1:09 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Nicky:
Also MN 37 may cover it. emoticon

~~Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is foremost among gods and humans.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Culatanhasankhaya_Sutta.htm
Why would it be that one? It doesn't even mention faith.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 2:02 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 2:02 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Did you get confused when I said that such a statement is not in the suttas?

Your post was good, it gave the sutta to question the phenomenon of the body while holding to yourself.

This one... this sutta says what I said:  You must believe in what you percieve, and also you must question what it is you are percieving. 

Faith is knowledge.

No belief is worth keeping.
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Nicky, modified 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 7:22 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/25/14 7:21 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 484 Join Date: 8/2/14 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Nicky:
Also MN 37 may cover it. emoticon

~~Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, there is no more coming to any state of being.’ Briefly, it is in this way, ruler of gods, that a bhikkhu is liberated in the destruction of craving, one who has reached the ultimate end, the ultimate security from bondage, the ultimate holy life, the ultimate goal, one who is foremost among gods and humans.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Culatanhasankhaya_Sutta.htm
Why would it be that one? It doesn't even mention faith.

Sure. You probably identified the most appropriate sutta. Well done! However, the sutta I added covers "everything" (thus also faith). Kind regards. emoticon
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John P, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 9:45 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 9:45 AM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 155 Join Date: 1/24/12 Recent Posts
Beoman, that's not the sutta I'm looking for, but thanks for the attempt.
This one is good too.

I think I will do as Chris J Macie recommended, and try to look for the sutta the hard way :-)
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John P, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 9:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 9:47 AM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 155 Join Date: 1/24/12 Recent Posts
Jeremy, I remember reading the sutta I'm looking for in accesstoinsight.org as a sutta (and not a commentary), so I think it exists, but I'm not sure if it says exactly what I remember it says. That's the main reason why I want to find it again.

I'm pretty sure that the words "faith" and "knowledge" refer to different things, even inside the suttas.
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 6:31 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 6:31 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
Correct.  In the suttas:  Faith = Noble Wisdom
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 8:33 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 8:33 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
John P:
Jeremy, I remember reading the sutta I'm looking for in accesstoinsight.org as a sutta (and not a commentary), so I think it exists, but I'm not sure if it says exactly what I remember it says. That's the main reason why I want to find it again.

I'm pretty sure that the words "faith" and "knowledge" refer to different things, even inside the suttas.


From my understanding is this, As far as Dhamma is concerned, Faith comes from confidence, and confidence comes from experiencing what the Buddha taught as actually true.  So faith is not a blind faith, nor is it a believing, but comes from experiencing what was said as true from one's very own experience. So faith and confidence are linked, and also Wisdom , Wisdom defined as that which derives from understood experiences, not just experiences in and of themselves.  So, Jeremy has a point , that faith , in a roundabout way is connected to "knowledge", though better defined as the Greek term for knowledge , which is Gnosis.  But, not the knowledge as usually described as intellectual or verbal knowledge.  By the Gods, why did I start posting this mess of views?

So, by these definitions, in short:

Faith =  as arising from confidence in actually experiencing what is being taught as being true, Not "blind faith"

Knowledge =  Gnosis, or "insight", a direct knowing

Wisdom = Comes from the understood experience, (insights)  (The Aha! moment, i.e. the connection of "so that's how such and such emotion starts up" "And that's how to stop such and such emotion from starting up") or visa versa

Many Much Metta

Wu Wei
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 8:41 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 8:41 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
God I love you!
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Psi, modified 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 9:42 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/26/14 9:42 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 1099 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
John P:
Hey, I am trying to find a pali sutta I read before.

It was something like this: In it, someone asked the buddha about what are the beliefs necessary to follow the buddhadharma. And the buddha answered that, when feeling a sensation, you believe that you felt that sensation, then that was enough faith.

I might have missed some details. Does someone know which sutta is this? I saw it in www.accesstoinsight.org and no, it's not canki sutta or kalama sutta, and it was relatively short

Thanks
This is like looking for a set of lost car keys....

Just some possibilties...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.002.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn25/sn25.005.than.html

Probably not what your looking for, but, I now have faith in bloodshot eyes sensation, and that's enough... for now...

Peace





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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/27/14 6:53 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/27/14 6:39 AM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
[quote=Psi Phi]
...Faith comes from confidence, and confidence comes from experiencing what the Buddha taught as actually true.  So faith is not a blind faith, nor is it a believing, but comes from experiencing what was said as true from one's very own experience. So faith and confidence are linked, and also Wisdom ...


Slightly tangential, but maybe helpful:

This theme of 'faith' is central in Fundamentalist Christianity, and I got a good handle on why, while watching late-night re-runs of sermons / lectures by one Gene Scott. That was years ago, during a phase of watching late-night re-runs of M.A.S.H., StarTrek, and after came Scott's talks. The attraction was Scott had 3 or 4 white-boards on stage and filled them with Greek (Paul's epistles), and versions and / or comparable texts in Hebrew, Latin, Ethiopic, Aremaic, and modern versions in English, French, German, etc., which I found fascinating. ("Born-again" Christianity has never interested me, but one runs into it occasionaly. Scott helped me understand the history and rationale.)

The pivotal phrase was in Paul's text (somewhere in the 'Epistle to the Romans,' verse something or other), which ran, roughly: "Righteousness before God is available only though taking on the faith <something> Jesus." Most translations read "…faith in Jesus…", and some read "…faith of Jesus…" Scott argues, documents extensively (and convincingly) for '… faith of Jesus'. He shows that the Greek has only one word for 'faith', but that Hebrew, and the other Semitic languages, had three words that get subsumed in that single Greek word.

(Paul was an educated Roman-Jew, so he wrote in Greek, as did most Jews then; only rabbis knew Hebrew; the 'Pentatuch' – itself a Greek word – was in those times available almost exclusively in Greek.)

The three Hebrew (and close relatives in other semitic languages) words differentiated between:
1) faith as sort-of believing in, maybe like hoping it's true; or maybe 'blind' faith;
2) faith as 'verified' hence lending confidence, etc. (as well explained by PsiPhi);
3) faith as absolute knowledge.

Scott argues that '… faith in Jesus…' implies option (1) or (2), at best. But that what Paul was talking about was that Jesus ('God made man') had an absolute faith(3) in his Father; caught in human form (in Samsara, so to speak), he knew, though it hadn't happened yet, as he was going through all that gruesome stuff, that his Father would come through and make it all worthwhile, so to speak – he would 'die' and hence redeem all mankind, and then be reunited at the right hand of the Father (and live happily ever after?).

So taking on the '… faith of Jesus…' (so Scott) makes much more sense, AND the parallel translations of Paul's Epistle in semitic languages did use that 3rd word for faith. So the Christian believer can find righteousness before God (i.e. redemption) simply by taking on that same faith like Jesus', namely that God's plan in fact worked – giving his 'only Son' as sacrifice was a once-and-for all sacrifice furnishing a path of righteousness for all mankind, past, present, future. The Hebrew 'old' covenent stipulated a yearly renewal of one-year (limited term) contracts between the chosen people and God, celebrated with an annual sacrifice of two goats. Jesus as sacrificial goat, ended all that and created a contract forever (unlimited term 'new' covenent). Any one, anytime, can cash in on that just by taking the faith of Jesus. The Hebrew 'Old' covenent sacrifice was executed in the inner sanctum of the Temple, hidden behind a veil; hence the symbolism in the text (somewhere in the 'Gospels') that at the moment of Jesus' death, "the veil in the temple was rent asunder".

So, (after all that – sorry about the extended build-up):
"…faith [Scott's faith(1)] and confidence [faith(2)] are linked, and also Wisdom [as a form of knowledge faith(3)  -- that comes with tasting Nibbana?] ..."

BTW, another curiosity, from some magazine article: the hypthesis that Paul's genius was in reshaping the Hebrew covenent in conceptual terms made possible by the Roman empire -- all peoples integrated by vast military, political and economic dominian, to be cast now in relgious terms. Paul may have thought this was just for Jewish people, maybe getting back at the Romans, but it turned out to be extensible, and caught on like wild-fire.

(And there may be some historical parallel here to the emergence of the Mahayana, at about the same time in history, and influenced by more pan-humanistic concepts of the time, whereby Buddhism was eventually extended beyond just Indic peoples to the Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, etc. via this new 'Great Vehicle'.)
Jeremy May, modified 9 Years ago at 10/27/14 12:49 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/27/14 12:49 PM

RE: Looking for a specific pali sutta

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
This is a brilliant Essay!

Christianity is Buddhism.  At least, it was.

The sacrifice of Christ was a fulfillment of a contract with the Jews.  It was not meant for all mankind.

Romans 6 states that there are other ways to salvation.  It is Faith that saves, not belief.

Jesus did not die after crucifixion.  He just left.  He become Yuz Asaf.

The Quaran states this simply.

Jesus was a Buddhist.  He was not a religious fanatic.  He used Buddhist terms instead of Jewish ones.  

It's all quite fascinating emoticon

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