Hi DhO,

First time poster, devoted subscriber.

I'm a 22-year old college student. I was hit in the face by meditation, unwittingly, when I sat a 10-day Goenka retreat about a year ago. Since then, I have been obsessed with meditation but have struggled to maintain a daily practice. This past summer, I went on a 7-day retreat at IMS. Although I do not have a consistent practice, I think I made some progress on the path of insight from sitting my first retreat. A fellow retreatant turned me on to MTCB, and I was instantly drawn to it. Considering this past year, I think I have been stumbling around in the dark night.

As expected, I have been thirsty for a several-month long retreat. I am about to start the process of applying to medical school, but I am taking a gap year. People (all highly driven but non-meditators) disabuse me of my obsession to go to Malaysia (i.e. Panditarama Lumbini) for this gap year. They say it is "smarter" for me to gain valuable medical experience. But, I'd rather set 'em up and knock 'em down and hit stream entry.

Only problem is that I have to be available for medical school interviews during the first several months of my gap year. Obviously, I cannot be flying back and forth from Malaysia. I thought about the 3-month retreat at IMS, but it takes place from Sept-Dec which is a hot time for interviews.

I am at a crossroads with what to do.

I know Goenka centers offer a sit-and-serve program where I could alternate sitting and serving retreats for up to a year. I have concerns though. It seems that the DhO turns to Mahasi-style noting for results. Can I make progress with a pure Goenka practice? Also, will this oscillation of sitting and serving hinder me from going deep?

Do I have any other options? How can I do intensive meditation while still being available to travel to interviews at the drop of a hat?

I just feel lost. I want to get out of this constant 3am feeling.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Maybe do a self-retreat. Set up a schedule for yourself and make it a priority in your life. Delve into the materials and gain knowledge.

You can still go to do medical school interviews and stuff as well.

You don't have to go to Malaysia to get stream entry.

Thank you. I like this idea.

My only hesitation is that I question how well I really know the Mahasi technique to do a self-retreat. I have read Practical Insight Meditation. Should I reread that? Is that enough?

It might be possible to have video or phone interviews with some of the schools. Or possibly plan a month where you'd come back, and schedule interviews during that month.

Or, for that matter, you can have video interviews with meditation teachers: I believe Kenneth Folk and Ron Crouch offer them. That way you could do a self-retreat and still have access to a meditation master when you need one.

Its more than enough to get you started.

You don't have to forbid yourself from reading and getting knowledge etc. While you are on 'retreat'. You set the rules that will be most conducive to your goal of stream entry.

So if you feel you are getting to bogged down with the intellectual stuff, and need to focus on practice then cut it out and focus on practice. On the other hand if you feel you are lacking confidence if you are investigating the right areas in your practice then get some more theory in.

The experiences in meditation will give you more reference points to understand theory, and the theory will help guide your meditations in the right direction. So there is a positive feedback look.

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The main thing is to investigate your first person subjective experience of reality in a specific way that you are not normally used to doing.

It helps to have someone point out the right sort of thing for you to investigate. Especially when you get stuck, or overly excited, etc. So that you keep progressing rather than spinning your wheels.

That someone can be a formal teacher (eg. ken folk) or in my case it was just someone else on these forums who had done it before.

There is lots of information on these forums, in the MCTB etc. Immerse yourself in this stuff, read about articles about philosophy and mindfulness, intellectual understanding will often precede realization. Then keep refining your intellectual view and practice of investigative meditation. Insight will follow naturally.

Hi Kurt,

For a good while I shared the same paradox as you regarding technique.

I have been doing the scanning technique exclusively for over 2 years. I have taken 3 retreats of 10 days each, the most recent of which settled me into Equanimity.

As far as this technique is concerned :

1) You need absolutely cutting edge morality to make progress. I have learnt my lessons well in this regard. If we ignore this aspect of the instruction then we may unwittingly wreck havoc not only while sitting but also in our daily life. This goes on until the lessons are learnt and concentration sharpens again with a strong moral base.

2) You go deep or you dont go, and you go deep when you're ready for it. Patience is vital, and impatience will also cause agony/frustration. Accept where you are at the moment fully and "see" what you can wholly, without craving for more.

3) You wont be given any juicy information at all either by the AT's or the VRI books. If you want to deepen theoretical knowledge of the Dharma, Practice and so on then http://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html is the best place to start.

4) Metta is just as important as Vipassana, and so are all 4 Brahma Viharas to counter all difficulties that may arise.

5) Goenka's centers are very good places to practice and make progress, given you're able to follow the extensive rules.

6) They dont teach or speak about Jhanas, but Jhanas happen and are not given any significance.

7) Many practitioners seem to have orthodox/close minded views as opposed to a "Can Do" or "In this very life" kind of attitude. I advice to steer away from both the extremes, and simply focus on practice in the moment.

The body scanning technique is essentially a simplified version of what is taught in the Thai Forest Tradition.

All the best, whichever way you go.

Metta,

SN

Interesting. I did a "life retreat" with Vincent Horn, so I may reach out to him to discuss this option. Thank you.

I really like the idea of grouping all my interviews during one month, but I don't think it is feasible. I don't think I have that flexibility, but I will look further into it.

As for the self-retreat, do you know of any good resources that describe a daily schedule? Should I just model it off my retreat experience at IMS?



I have noticed the more reference points now that you mention it. I have been more obsessed with the theory. I need to embrace this idea of a positive feedback loop.

Thank you for the link to your other posts. That was very helpful.

HI SN,

So, if I gather what you said correctly, then if I am to do this sit and serve program at one of the Goenka retreats for close to a year or so, as long as I commit fully to following the precepts and practice, I can make some progress.

Can I take what you said one step further and do a self-retreat based on the Goenka technique, so long as I fully commit to morality and metta?

I've heard that you do not learn the entire Goenka technique until you have sat a longer course or the satipatthana. Is this true? Can I still do a self-retreat with only having sat one 10-day?

Maybe I should just stick with the sit and serve program. But, they require 2 weeks serving for every week sitting. I understand the important of serving, but part of me (probably the dark night part) wishes it was only sitting. I think I know the answer to this, but can I still make progress while serving and meditating 3 hours a day?

Apparently, I am full to the brim with questions. Appreciate the help thus far.

Kurt

Have you looked into this center in San Jose? They seem to have regular month long retreats in the Mahasi tradition. One with U Pandita in the summer. I think this center is reviewed in the retreat section. I have not been.

http://tathagata.org/node/7

Hey Kurt,

Always happy to help.

The sit and serve program looks like an excellent opportunity to make progress while staying grounded in the practical realities of our world.

The environment of the retreat would be conductive to your practice, and you will find it much easier to deal with all the unwholesome mental stuff that is likely to come up as opposed to a self retreat. You're also less likely to get bored or give up.

I have never served so I am unsure of how much free time you will have, during which you may also study/meditate. 3 hours/day sitting in strong determination in a group can be effective. In the other time, you can continue to be fully mindful in your tasks. This is fun and balanced way to make progress, while also developing in the 10 perfections.

You can do a self retreat also, but I feel such an endeavor will be more rewarding after some more time at actual retreat.

I have not sat for the Sathpathana course, but from what I have heard it deals with all the mess more advanced mediators land into. It also covers other aspects of "seeing" than just Vedana/Sensations. You can probably sit for this 7 day course after a while at sit & serve.

I feel the standard technique is complete in itself. As we go further, we are able to "see" more and more things that we did not notice before and our concentrated awareness automatically dissolves them and then we see what's beneath them. Simultaneously, insight arises naturally in the mind as our burden of delusion reduces.

As we keep practicing more and more, variations in technique happen by themselves and it becomes more effortless.
With consistency we're also able to maintain higher levels of awareness off the mat.

From my experience, I can say that bulk of the suffering in the DN comes from the Ego trying to hold on tight to it's old patterns of existence. Eventually it gives up. This struggle can be a lot easier when the mind is busy with non egotistic work.

Regards,

SN

What are your goals for this timeframe?
Work on morality?
Work on patience?
Work on 4 Brahma Viharas?
Work on jhanas?
Get to equanimity?

All of these things are wonderful axis of development to work on and you should clarify for yourself exactly what you want. Some people believe these are all one axis of development and you have to work on them all to make progress....others do not.

Or are you going for Stream entry? There are conversations about the goenka tradition from those who have followed it for many years who then moved to a noting practice and then got SE. Consider this.
Google -> site:http://www.dharmaoverground.org Goenka
read the various threads yourself and see what you think before making a decision that aligns with your goals.
Message me if you wish to chat more
Good Luck
~D

It never hurts to ask about grouping interviews, especially if you tell them you will be overseas for most of the year. They may be willing to be flexible.

Tarin's guide for self-retreats. It includes a suggested daily schedule (but I'd need more sleep than that personally).