Need help filling up my bath

Jack Ellis, modified 10 Years ago at 2/28/14 4:55 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 2/28/14 4:53 PM

Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 3 Join Date: 2/28/14 Recent Posts
Hey,

I recently read Upasaka Culadasa's 'Progressive Stages of Meditation in Plain English' and was
wondering if anyone can comment on how one might keep their progress in Meditative Concentration from declining in-between sitting. Culadasa likens it to filling a bathtub:

But if everything that is learned,and all of the skills that are acquired while sitting are not continued and applied
throughout the rest of the day after one arises from the cushion, it is like filling a bathtub without putting the plug in place and then walking away. By the time one returns, the tub will be almost empty again and the filling process can go on forever.


He then goes on to say 'There are certain important ancillary non-sitting practices that will be discussed that can help the meditator to do just that.' But then the doc/pdf ends and I can't find anymore info.
Can anyone comment or share any tips about how best to maintain or even further ones concentration practice throughout the day, as I'm focusing the next 16 months on Shamatha practice in a home-retreat kind of setting.

The first things that came to mind were obviously continuing the Attention and Awareness cultivated in sitting during other activities and staying free from extraneous thoughts/procrastination, maybe I'd use an alarm that buzzed every few minutes to remind me, training wheels if you like. Even now, before I properly begin this expedition (I'm currently around Stage 3), would it aid quicker development if I practiced mindfulness consistently as much as possible throughout the day? The reason I ask is it feels some-what mentally tiring to come from sitting, straight into mindfulness practice and I've read to keep my sessions short to ensure 'quality of attention' as oppose to quantity.

Thanks,
Ellis
thumbnail
Ian And, modified 10 Years ago at 3/1/14 1:16 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 3/1/14 1:16 AM

RE: Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Hi Jack,

Welcome to the DhO.

I'm familiar with Upasaka Culadasa's work. I used to post on a yahoo groups list forum with him nearly ten years ago. He has some of the best descriptions I've ever read regarding the process of meditation, and is well worth looking into.

Jack Ellis:

I recently read Upasaka Culadasa's 'Progressive Stages of Meditation in Plain English' and was
wondering if anyone can comment on how one might keep their progress in Meditative Concentration from declining in-between sitting. Culadasa likens it to filling a bathtub:

But if everything that is learned,and all of the skills that are acquired while sitting are not continued and applied
throughout the rest of the day after one arises from the cushion, it is like filling a bathtub without putting the plug in place and then walking away. By the time one returns, the tub will be almost empty again and the filling process can go on forever.


He then goes on to say 'There are certain important ancillary non-sitting practices that will be discussed that can help the meditator to do just that.' But then the doc/pdf ends and I can't find anymore info.
Can anyone comment or share any tips about how best to maintain or even further ones concentration practice throughout the day, as I'm focusing the next 16 months on Shamatha practice in a home-retreat kind of setting.

If you are a student of meditation techniques and have studied such, there have been several practices proposed in ancient and modern times to help practitioners extend the effects of a samatha meditation session into the rest of their conscious day. They all revolve around the common thread of picking an object for observation and momentarily paying attention to it in order to re-establish mindfulness.

My favorite is the breath. You can also use a mantra (which becomes mentally repeated silently) as one is going through one's day. What people here are directed to do is called "noting," wherein they take note of any phenomena that arises. But that can become a bit wearying (distracting) if you have to interrupt your day with constant noting. Noting promotes general mindfulness. However, if you are going to practice it, I would recommend not verbally noting things, but just being aware of having observed the phenomenon's rise and fall. All of which comes back to why I prefer mindful awareness of the breath. One can become mindfully aware of the breath at any moment that one begins to sense a diminishing of mindfulness. Becoming aware of the breath is less distracting. This helps one to re-establish mindfulness, if one is mentally aware of the breath for, say, a minute or two. Sometimes, you can also use the universal sensation of the concentrative pressure in the middle and just above the eye brows as an object of awareness. This pressure can sometimes feel similar to a balloon filling up in the center of the head and pressing against the skull.

Ultimately, what really helps one to begin establishing mindfulness on a continuous basis is the development of dhyana (jhana) meditation. After extended practice (over several weeks and months) of practicing the first four dhyana absorption meditations, the mind can become reconditioned to the profound calm of the fourth dhyana such that this calmness is extended into the rest of the day in what is called a state of passaddhi (or a profound calmness) in normal consciousness after meditation. What generally happens is that you begin to notice that this passaddhi (this profound calmness) lasts for longer and longer periods after you've finished formal meditation. The extension of this passaddhi helps one maintain not only mindfulness but concentration.

Jack Ellis:

The first things that came to mind were obviously continuing the Attention and Awareness cultivated in sitting during other activities and staying free from extraneous thoughts/procrastination, maybe I'd use an alarm that buzzed every few minutes to remind me, training wheels if you like. Even now, before I properly begin this expedition (I'm currently around Stage 3), would it aid quicker development if I practiced mindfulness consistently as much as possible throughout the day? The reason I ask is it feels some-what mentally tiring to come from sitting, straight into mindfulness practice and I've read to keep my sessions short to ensure 'quality of attention' as oppose to quantity.

Yes, it would "aid quicker development" if you practiced mindfulness consistently as much as possible throughout the day. Continuous mindfulness is the ultimate goal of all meditation according to the system of development espoused by Gotama.
Jack Ellis, modified 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 9:01 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 5:50 AM

RE: Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 3 Join Date: 2/28/14 Recent Posts
Thanks a lot for your reply, really cleared things up and for the most part confirmed some important things for me that I didn't want to remain unsure about. I've been reading a lot over the past several months and just finished getting through most of MCTB, however I have one final question that's bugging me, if anyone could shed some light on it that'd be great.

In regards to Kamalashilas's nine stages ie. Tibetan map/Culadasa's 10 stages, how do they compare with the 8 jhanas?
My long term goal is attaining Shamatha and I was wondering if experiencing the 4 jhanas would help achieve this? The obvious answer to me would be yes but in Culadasa's guide mentioned above he mentions:

One exception to this is that stage 5 can be skipped altogether, which as I have already explained,is a serious error leading to concentration with dullness. If this happens, the meditator may experience a shallow facsimile of the later stages, but is truly at a dead end as far as attaining the real fruits of meditation
practice.

Is he by any chance eluding to the Jhanas here when he says 'shallow facsimile of the later stages' ?

And as a side note I'm making a guess that attaining hard 4th Jhana with ease is not the same as achieving Shamatha unless the quote below can be said for 4th Jhana also:
It possesses the same characteristics of mental and physical pliancy as the preceding stages, combined with an almost imperturbable peacefulness and calm, joy and happiness, and profound equanimity.... - But as practice continues, they persist for longer and longer periods after each meditation session ends, until before too long they become the normal condition for the meditator.


Thanks for any info. emoticon

EDIT: Currently re-reading your all purpose Jhana thread, might find some answers there actually
stuart chas law, modified 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 7:42 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 7:42 AM

RE: Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 68 Join Date: 12/8/13 Recent Posts
G'day Jack,

Please forgive me cutting across your bows my friend but i just wanted to say to Ian And that i'd been looking for something to keep up my off cushion concentration momentum and those five beautiful words are it. (I feel)My favorite is the breath. Thank you Ian. You are a scholar and a gentleman. I've gained much from your words and work here.

Again i'm sorry Jack.

Kind regards

Stu
thumbnail
Jane Laurel Carrington, modified 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 2:14 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 2:14 PM

RE: Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 196 Join Date: 12/29/10 Recent Posts
Yes; if there were "Like" buttons on here I'd be liking Ian's post terrifically. As it is, I think I'll go do the practice.
thumbnail
Ian And, modified 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 8:53 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 3/2/14 8:53 PM

RE: Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Jack Ellis:

In regards to Kamalashilas's nine stages ie. Tibetan map/Culadasa's 10 stages, how do they compare with the 8 jhanas?

The nine stages or ten stages are just another template to reach the same goal as dhyana meditation, which is to be able to reach the purified, stable, stilled, established, brightness of mind necessary in order to practice contemplation on the teachings (i.e., the four noble truths, the three characteristics, the five aggregates, and the crowning jewel of dependent co-arising). When the mind is no longer having to deal with distractions and is thus purified, bright and calm, it is able to concentrate solely upon its object with unworldly clarity. It can notice (realize) and verify the truth of the Dhamma much quicker.

Culadasa explains this pretty much in the same way I mean here when he says:

[indent]The four milestone achievements:
1. Uninterrupted continuity of attention to the meditation object — Uninterrupted continuity of attention marks the first stage of development of Skilled Concentration. The meditator is no longer a novice, prone to mind-wandering and falling asleep.

2. Sustained single-pointed attention to the meditation object, with exclusive focus — Sustained single-pointed attention constitutes the mastery of Skilled Concentration.

3. Effortless stability of the attention, also known as mental pliancy, the compliant mind — The achievement of effortlessly sustained single-pointed attention marks the first stage of development of the Concentration of an Adept

4. Stability of attention and mindful awareness are fully developed, accompanied by meditative joy, tranquility and
equanimity, qualities which persist between meditation sessions
— This is the Concentration of an Adept.[/indent]

Therefore the end goal is the same.

Jack Ellis:

My long term goal is attaining Shamatha and I was wondering if experiencing the 4 jhanas would help achieve this? The obvious answer to me would be yes but in Culadasa's guide mentioned above he mentions:

One exception to this is that stage 5 can be skipped altogether, which as I have already explained,is a serious error leading to concentration with dullness. If this happens, the meditator may experience a shallow facsimile of the later stages, but is truly at a dead end as far as attaining the real fruits of meditation
practice.

Is he by any chance eluding to the Jhanas here when he says 'shallow facsimile of the later stages' ?

The answer to your first question above is: of course they will. It appears that you are still struggling in your mind to define what samatha is. It simply refers to a calm and concentrated mind. Nothing more, nothing less. The first four dhyanas aim to bring the mind into this same calm and concentrated state when one reaches the fourth dhyana.

The answer to your second question is: no. He is not referring to dhyana meditation as being a "shallow facsimile of the later stages." If you go back and read what Stage Five is, he states that it involves "full-minded awareness." This is just another way of saying "full mindfulness." He states: "The fifth stage is characterized by freedom from strong dullness, and
by the ability to easily keep the subtle distractions that continue to be present from becoming gross distractions that will overwhelm the attention to the meditation object."

He is endeavoring to emphasize the importance of having established mindfulness before, during, and after the formal sitting session. That can be a tall order to achieve for someone just beginning to practice; so don't expect to achieve it without some effort. When that "full-minded awareness" becomes established, the mind will not slip back into a dull or trance-like state, which is something you want to avoid like the plague. Such a state is the exact opposite of a clear, bright, pliant, and self-aware state of mental clarity. A mind that is dull can be manipulated (just as a hypnotist will manipulate his subject's mind when under hypnosis, because the trance mind is in this same dull awareness mode; this trance-like state can be a pleasant state to be in, but it is not conducive to insight meditation, because the mind in that state will accept any kind of nonsense as true rather than objectively recognizing what is true). This will not happen when the mind is purified, bright, and established on its object. It will see that object with objective clarity and insight! This is what Gotama (and hence, the elaboration of Kamalashila and Culadasa) is aiming at. A mind that is bright, unblemished, unified and established in mindfulness (and hence ready for a more pointed concentration upon an object of observation).

Jack Ellis:

And as a side note I'm making a guess that attaining hard 4th Jhana with ease is not the same as achieving Shamatha unless the quote below can be said for 4th Jhana also:

It possesses the same characteristics of mental and physical pliancy as the preceding stages, combined with an almost imperturbable peacefulness and calm, joy and happiness, and profound equanimity.... - But as practice continues, they persist for longer and longer periods after each meditation session ends, until before too long they become the normal condition for the meditator.

Then your guess would be wrong. By now you should be aware that attaining a "hard 4th Jhana with ease" is exactly the same as achieving "shamatha." Do you understand what the word "elaboration" means in the comment above (as well as in Culadasa's opening paragraph description in his Progressive Stages of Meditation in Plain English? His explanations are not changing the parameters of the practice; only adding more detail in order to further clarify (elaborate upon) the concepts for the reader.
Jack Ellis, modified 10 Years ago at 3/3/14 11:11 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 3/3/14 11:11 AM

RE: Need help filling up my bath

Posts: 3 Join Date: 2/28/14 Recent Posts
I appreciate you taking the time to clear things up for me, I get it now.
My misunderstanding of the Jhanas began with hearing that some people have been warned away from them, whilst I thought my knowledge of Shamatha (in terms of 9stages) was decent, it was my ignorance in thinking that the Jhanas might be related to trance states and only had similarities to the 9 stages that got me confused.

I'll also be sure to re-read your posts when needed.

Thanks again.

Breadcrumb