So I've suspected I was in A&P for about a week now. I've been able to go deeper than before almost effortlessly. Before last week I could sort of reliably attain the 2nd Samatha Jhana. Now I hit the 4th every time I'm on the cushion whether I want to or not (even noting or body-sweeping). Lots of colors, geometric shapes and a crap load of white light. Once I even hit the 5th. Shit got really weird but afterwards I had a clarity of mind that I have never experienced before that lasted for hours. It was astonishing.

Anyway, last night I went to a Tai Chi class and before the class I was stretching in front of a mirror. I started noticing reality strobing and vibrating in my peripherals. I looked at my reflection in the mirror and I became pixilated and began to vanish. I knew what was happening but as class was about to begin I didn't want to get into this altered state while interacting with people so I sort of resolved to not let it happen. Things stayed strange for a while but slowly settled down and I was able to complete the class.

So I'm wondering 1. Is that it? Now I'm headed to DN? 2. Did I kick the can down the road and It will recur? 3. This was not the A&P all? 4. All of the above?

The answer to all your questions is practice and wait and see. Past performance is not predictive of guaranteed future results. The first time thru you just have to see what happens....the second time and the times after are more obvious.
Good luck,
~D

If you want more feedback I would recommend giving more phenomenological descriptions of things. Notice above that you are stating where you are at not describing...so we do not know if it is true or not. The "colors, geometric shapes and a crap load of white light" are the only descriptions...is this your description of fourth jhana as you are experiencing it? Please expound upon "Shit got really weird"

Thanks,
~D

Good point, Dream Walker. Honestly, I'm not sure I'm even in A&P at all. My practice tends toward the concentration. Even when I note, the focus I place on noting pushes me through the Samatha Jhanas. In fact, the insight practices seem to have made my concentration practices even stronger even though that isn't what I was trying to accomplish. I do note sensations arising and passing and can note a large number of them. I can sometimes even hear constant sounds broken into constituent parts or frequencies. It's hard to describe. Once I was listening to music and focusing on particular notes. At one point it seemed like one of the notes slowed down while I focused on it but all the other ones stayed at the same speed. Like I pulled that note out and held it for just a second.

All that being said, I still thought that I hadn't even attained Mind and Body until I read a post by you from another thread:



It dawned on me that maybe I was in A&P after all. And when the weird mirror thing happened, I figured it was likely related to the A&P stage. Still not sure though. I've felt odd all day today, light-headed with major sensitivity to light (no pupil dilation) but no other strangeness.

Edit: Also, I haven't really been able to sleep for 3 days.

1. Could be, hard to say though. Time will tell. Anyhow don't worry too much, because you will probably cycle around a bunch till you get stream entry.
2. As I said above, it will probably recur. Until stream entry, you will cycle ALL the way through the Vippassina jhanas numerous times, until you get stream entry.
3. Probably trust your gut on this, based on your description it seems likely. Anyhow it's not that important, just keep practicing and see what happens. You know.. don't worry about it too much!


Also the fact that your concentration is stronger could well be a sign of the A+P. Ha and that you haven't been able to sleep for 3 days is an indication something involving keyed up energy is definitely occurring, unless you're abusing stimulants.

Some light reading about the A&P Diagnosing the A&P in case you have not read it.
~D

Another thing to think about

Intensity of everything is subjective and how much people notice and then accurately remember varies greatly.
~D

In my experience, I hit what I took to be A&P while on retreat, in the zendo. But because I was surrounded by people, there was an element of fear and being self-conscious. So afterwards, it definitely felt like an A&P event but perhaps something missing.

A week or so later, while meditating alone in my house, I had a repeat experience, similar to before, but this time no holding back, and a lot of more intense.

So in my case, I think I might have "willed" the A&P away initially, but I wouldn't say it stopped, just that it wasn't fully expressed. Obviously this is just my experience and it isn't necessarily true that it will apply to you, though I get the sense from what you say that there could be "more in the bank", but then again I wouldn't worry or set up up the expectation of looking for it. You could take the position that whatever needs to be expressed will find its way out.

In my experience, I hit what I took to be A&P while on retreat, in the zendo. But because I was surrounded by people, there was an element of fear and being self-conscious. So afterwards, it definitely felt like an A&P event but perhaps something missing.

A week or so later, while meditating alone in my house, I had a repeat experience, similar to before, but this time no holding back, and a lot of more intense.

So in my case, I think I might have "willed" the A&P away initially, but I wouldn't say it stopped, just that it wasn't fully expressed. Obviously this is just my experience and it isn't necessarily true that it will apply to you, though I get the sense from what you say that there could be "more in the bank", but then again I wouldn't worry or set up up the expectation of looking for it. You could take the position that whatever needs to be expressed will find its way out (and might already have).

Thanks for relating your experience, Sawfoot. My gut tells me that, like you, there is more to come. I've been doing too much anticipating and I need to just relax, enjoy the moment and let what happens happen.

Ha, the limits of my stimulant abuse are 2 cups of coffee in the morning.

I've held off posting because I wanted to be sure what was going on. I know that the A&P can cause a bunch of confusion especially when you try to figure out where you are afterwards. I have to say though, I'm pretty confident that it was the A&P and I got to enjoy 4 days of the DN. The DN for me unfolded pretty much EXACTLY like MCTB described. This makes me wonder if this whole ride has been sort of self programming. You read about it, you meditate heavily, then things unfold the way they are supposed to. Weird.

That being said, I had the A&P Monday eve. I awoke Tuesday morning and I felt this annoying tone in my head just for a second right as I awoke. The rest of the day I wasn't sure where I was on the map. In fact I was pretty sure I was in the 3 C's. I was sure I had a migraine coming on (I get them about twice a year) but it never would materialize. Everything in my view seemed to be comprised of 'dots' that vibrated and shook. There was a light annoying buzzing around the peripherals of my eyes and that persisted most of the day. Other than that, things were manageable.

On my way back from the zendo about 9pm while driving, I was pondering the A&P experience and I got an awful terror. I won't go into the details as the nature of the fear as it was ridiculous, especially to a skeptic like myself. Regardless, it was scary. Then I suddenly realized that I didn't know where I was. I was completely lost for a second. Soon as that passed, I saw some sort of small creature run out in front of me and I slammed on the brakes. Turns out I hallucinated the small creature. Thankfully, I was on a country road and no one was around.

I made it home, slept reasonably well and woke up with the same annoying buzzing around the peripherals of my eyes. This was the point that I figured I was in the DN. I was still unsure but I took Daniel's advice to heart and (I'm paraphrasing):
-Kept practicing diligently
-Didn't try to keep focus on an object if that wasn't going to happen (and it sure as hell wasn't going to happen)
-Exercise (this is my emphasis). It helps, believe me. Even if you don't want to.

3 days earlier I basically sat in the wonderful equanimity of the 4th Samatha Jhana any time I wanted. Now, not so much. Not at all, in fact. But I was OK with that.

Thursday afternoon, I went for my allergy shot so I headed for lunch out by myself which is my custom. After your allergy shot you are required to wait for 30 minutes presumably to ensure you don't launch into some sort of anaphylactic shock. I generally read a dharma book at this time and I had just got a copy of "A Path With Heart". 10 pages in I began to weep. My practice was meaningless and futile and completely heartless (I still hold this view to some degree). I headed to lunch and barely held it together while I ate.

I was becoming convinced that this whole path was BS and I was about to post a tirade of shit here on DhO. Glad I didn't.

The buzzing became super intense, everything in my view was vibratory 'dots' and I still thought I had a migraine coming on. I just decided that this was OK. Didn't worry about it. Somehow, I felt some sort of 'pre-equanimity' here because there was some relief. I just stayed with the same strategy--diligent practice (2-4 hours a day) and letting the fact that I could barely even get to the 1st Jhana be OK. BOOM.

Friday was equanimity. A complete fucking relief. Saturday, it is still holding. I went to a farmers market and it was crowded (I hate crowds). I was totally fine with it. I loved it. I was so thankful to be alive. All this being said, I am pretty convinced that I have not achieved the necessary insights for SE (I know Daniel and others say that if you have gotten this far, you have the skills to finish). My practice has been concentration heavy and I simply don't feel that I have the insights to move on so I fully expect to be repeating DN.

I'll get it eventually...

Thanks for reading.

Its a ride, isn't it.

Convinced that the whole path was BS and about to post a tirade of shit? Sounds familiar. But I would be interested to hear what has changed? Are those insights about the BS still compatible with what you think now?

Good question. I have to say, the way I've felt since Friday has been amazing. I'm still exactly the same person but I feel more engaged with life, people and the world. At that farmer's market I mentioned, I really was interested in the people I interacted with--this is not like me. Also, in interactions with my wife. As in all relationships, she does shit that pisses me off. But now it isn't just that those things don't bother me so much, I see why they happen and they are generally a response to something I was unknowingly doing. In an instant, I saw the whole karmic dance play out--me doing something unintentionally causing her to respond in a way that pissed me off and then me getting angry at her for this response. I just changed the behavior and bang. The whole thing circumvented. And my intention for changing the outcome wasn't even motivated by my desire to not be pissed off, it was out of compassion for her feelings.

So to answer your question Sawfoot, I'm not there yet but equanimity has given me a taste and it is very real. Nothing is different but your outlook but that is a powerful change. I still expect to backslide to DN. It went so fast for me I'm not sure I really gained much insight from it. But I'm OK with that. I've been here now, I know I can get back and I know I'll move forward.

Don't have any expectations either way...If you saw clearly the sensations and noticed that they are not you, not permanent and not satisfactory then you have progressed to where you need to be. Continue the work with diligence and skillfulness. Move up the layers of EQ to high EQ and get very gentle with the noticing of the sensations. Drift a little. they will do their own thing of rising and passing away. You need not force it at all at that stage. Have fun.
Good luck,
~D