Fruition

Matthew Jones, modified 7 Years ago.

Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
Hi Everyone

First, a little background on myself and my practice. I don't physically attend a sangha, I practice at home using the resources available to me through the internet and books. I live alone and work part time so have a lot of time for dedicated practice. I've been practicing for around three years now.

Just recently I believe I attained fruition for the first time, it's not at all as I expected. This was about a week ago now. Since then I believe I've attained fruition multiple times and each time I become more and more confident that the '(non-)experience' occurring is actually Nibbana/fruition, like I suspect. The experience I speak of is a sense of discontinuity, sometimes this is subtle, whilst other times the discontinuity of experience is more obvious and blatant, after stages involving subtler and subtler spiraling/vibrating (kind of fractal like, I've noticed at times) 3D formations mainly occurring in the head, sometimes settling to a stable point at the crown. On a couple of occasions, I was in a state of extremely calm, high equanimity then the next instant my heart was beating very fast and focus was resting on looking at inside of my eyelids, whereas an instant before attention had not been there. Last night the sense of discontinuity was more blatant and from one instant to the next instant, the difference of attention and state was the most pronounced yet.

After initial fruitions, I notice that, as pointed out in "MtCToTB", the nerves in my head are very strained due to sensitivity of sensory input.

DI's book "MtCToTB" has been invaluable. Especially since I don't have access to talk to an experienced teacher for guidance in person. I've been able to recognize and identify difference stages and 'states' of insight and concentration, so I was able to keep to the path and not get lost. That, coupled with the exceptional teachings of venerable Bhante Vimalaramsi. I highly recommend his teachings, especially for smoothly navigating through the dukkha nanas. His tranquil insight has helped me out immeasurably, I was stuck until I learnt how to recognize craving and the oh-so-important step of relaxing the physical manifestations of craving before returning to the primary object; integrating cultivation of metta, through following his methods and instructions. Craving really is the weak link to the chain of dependent origination, and its diametric opposite (ie Acceptance/equanimity; peace/calm; warmth/friendliness; openness/clarity; patience/non-aversion) dissolves / tranquilizes it. I believe his teachings really do compliment DI's in the sense that it provides perspectives that adds to DI's approach, and helps to cultivate clear, open, warm acceptance and patience allowing effective insight.

Has anyone got any advice to offer to a newly awakened noob? I believe I still have cravings and knots that need loosening and shedding, I expect continuing on with practice with obviously help with maturing and development.
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katy steger, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Matthew

First, a little background on myself and my practice. I don't physically attend a sangha, I practice at home using the resources available to me through the internet and books. I live alone and work part time so have a lot of time for dedicated practice. I've been practicing for around three years now.
Personally, I always hope everyone who has taken up this hobby-study has well personalized it on their own. It's like anything: one gets out of the practice and out of one's sentient peers (some of whom may be in the role of stated or unstated "teacher") what one puts into the hobby-study. So if I personally study in my own time and experimentation whiskey-making on my own, the distillery tour with master distillers and other students is way more useful than if I think I can just learn it all on the distillery tour. I think you know this, but I like to say it.

Has anyone got any advice to offer to a newly awakened noob? I believe I still have cravings and knots that need loosening and shedding, I expect continuing on with practice with obviously help with maturing and development.
So I would refer to a fruition moment as a "extinguishment", not as "awakening" (though "awakening" is a common reference, as in (starting to) waking up to seeing things as they are, waking up to seeing conditions of cause-and-effect and how one operates personally), as that ("extinguishment") is the meaning of nibbana and there are affective traits of mind and self views that extinguish, that do go out as a result of sitting calmly to the point the mind relaxes very much and naturally ceases its own arising urges or its recognition of its arising moments (e.g., thoughts).

So, generally, the advice offered is to wait a year, see if any affective traits or viewpoints about self-nature have changed: either attenuated or ceased arising. One knows for themselves if, for example, one's view of what is being a "self" has changed, if a personal, steady self view is greatly undermined.

And then, if this has indeed happened, aka "first path" in the Theravadin map, then one would not be in some perfected state, but merely aware of all the nutty and harmful things one puts in motion via mental seeds of own-greed and own-malice, one would start to see cause-and-effect in the environment and to start learning to apply skillful means to help assuage painful, needless effects in one's own being and their environment (such as practicing the brahmaviharas: kindness, altruistic joy, compassion, equanimity/equipoise). And one would become better, too, at seeing what one is doing correctly: seeing seeds of own-effort, own calming-down, etc...


I hope that helps.
Matthew Jones, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
Thanks for your advice and thoughts Katy emoticon

Yeah, I agree with you - time and continued practice is the way to go. I'm coming to realize that fixating on this is not particularly beneficial or helpful. I'm not about to go out telling anyone (other than this message board) of my experiences or possible interpretations of them either, as that would serve no useful purpose imo. Though it's good to know that I can come here to discuss any matters with members of Dharma Overground, and gain advice from people who have traversed this territory before. It can be quite isolating practicing alone, though as we seem to agree, it is essential to be 'a light unto oneself'.
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katy steger, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Though it's good to know that I can come here to discuss any matters with members of Dharma Overground,
Yeah, so I want to thank you for sharing this! It's helpful to read you. And I am also am grateful for this "hobby community" and others. =)

It would be very, very hard to do without our sharing notes and a friendly community.


I'm coming to realize that fixating on this is not particularly beneficial or helpful.
But, to borrow from Chris G's gratitude practice, it's really helpful to actually thank the mind for its work so far, to not stuff away any good work in some strained humility (not that you are). It is really good to thank the mind for its practice. Even have something nice as a thank. Seriously, a piece of cake or what have you! But then as you said, (I think, to paraphrase hopefully correctly): to let it go and just resume the practice.
Matthew Jones, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
It's just happened again, I was meditating in neither perception nor non perception, extremely tranquil but clear and attentive. Then a totally unexpected 'blip' and a wave of bliss followed shortly after. I'm so grateful that I've been lucky enough to gain stream entry, especially after such a relatively short period of practicing the Buddha Dharma. I know how frustrating it can be when you think, 'is it ever going to happen?'

But, to borrow from Chris G's gratitude practice, it's really helpful to actually thank the mind for its work so far, to not stuff away any good work in some strained humility (not that you are). It is really good to thank the mind for its practice. Even have something nice as a thank. Seriously, a piece of cake or what have you! But then as you said, (I think, to paraphrase hopefully correctly): to let it go and just resume the practice.


I treated myself to nice homemade meal and a glass of red wine tonight, and gave thanks to mind for its practice as you suggested. Thanks Katy. ;)
Adam Dietrich Ringle, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 695 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Based on my own personal experience and reading, my conclusion is that fruitions are simply the desire for that which you can't have. There is a reason more people don't talk about such nut-jobbery.
Adam Dietrich Ringle, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 695 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
This may sounds a little harsh, and if it is taken as such I am sorry.

Edit:

I say this from the vantage point of having taking vipassana practice to the extreme and not finding any tangible results other than learning how to deconstruct my own practice and mind. I once thought I had the ability to call up jhana and get review fruitions, but it has been awhile now since these things have been part of my life.
Matthew Jones, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
No, not taken harshly at all. I've become very weary of self delusion in these respects. It's not about a 'state', or constant bliss or whatever, but clarity and the truth I believe. My main problem before was cultivating bliss and clinging on to it, that hindered me. A huge part of it is being as honest with yourself as possible, and seeing habits that you were blind to. In some respects, it was a disappointment as it didn't live up to my expectations, but I'm coming to just accept things now, and paradoxically that is more fulfilling than my expectations, if that makes sense?
Matthew Jones, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
Adam Dietrich Ringle:
Based on my own personal experience and reading, my conclusion is that fruitions are simply the desire for that which you can't have. There is a reason more people don't talk about such nut-jobbery.


Could you explain what you mean a bit more Adam? I'm intrigued.
Adam Dietrich Ringle, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 695 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
You are obviously happy that you achieved something, and I can relate to that sense of achievement. Ultimately though, I have found that such a feeling does not last, if what you are experience is anything like I have experienced (there is a decent chance that this is not the case, but I wouldn't know how to verify it). The animal body has to be tamed, and I think this is a lifelong endeavor that can be and has to be approached from various angles, viewpoints, energy levels, religions, sexual orientations, etc.

My primary preoccupation is finding the right preoccupation . . .
Matthew Jones, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
Adam Dietrich Ringle:
You are obviously happy that you achieved something, and I can relate to that sense of achievement. Ultimately though, I have found that such a feeling does not last, if what you are experience is anything like I have experienced (there is a decent chance that this is not the case, but I wouldn't know how to verify it). The animal body has to be tamed, and I think this is a lifelong endeavor that can be and has to be approached from various angles, viewpoints, energy levels, religions, sexual orientations, etc.

My primary preoccupation is finding the right preoccupation . . .


I'm just speaking from the initial aftershocks that have arisen after what just occurred. It obviously will fade and has done every time it has occurred (although, its not always the case that there is this blissful, grateful feeling I've noticed, often there's not much discernible afterwards in this respect, I think it depends on my level of clarity and mindfulness at the time). The first time it happened I experienced this 'bliss' and gratefulness, then that faded and I was left feeling that I'd imagined it all in some way, and I was quite disappointed in myself for what I then saw as kidding myself. But it happens every day now, without even 'trying' or having the intention. Particularly at the end of the day when I chill out on the sofa or whatever. it just happens unexpectedly. My practice has changed quite dramatically.

And i totally agree with you, this is a life long practice, and I relate to your statement, "My primary preoccupation is finding the right preoccupation".
Matthew Jones (UK), modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 11 Join Date: 6/1/12 Recent Posts
Adam Dietrich Ringle:
You are obviously happy that you achieved something, and I can relate to that sense of achievement. Ultimately though, I have found that such a feeling does not last, if what you are experience is anything like I have experienced (there is a decent chance that this is not the case, but I wouldn't know how to verify it). The animal body has to be tamed, and I think this is a lifelong endeavor that can be and has to be approached from various angles, viewpoints, energy levels, religions, sexual orientations, etc.

My primary preoccupation is finding the right preoccupation . . .


Thank you for your grounded comments and words of advice Adam. emoticon
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sawfoot _, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 507 Join Date: 3/11/13 Recent Posts
Adam Dietrich Ringle:
You are obviously happy that you achieved something, and I can relate to that sense of achievement. Ultimately though, I have found that such a feeling does not last, if what you are experience is anything like I have experienced (there is a decent chance that this is not the case, but I wouldn't know how to verify it). The animal body has to be tamed, and I think this is a lifelong endeavor that can be and has to be approached from various angles, viewpoints, energy levels, religions, sexual orientations, etc.

My primary preoccupation is finding the right preoccupation . . .


Tamed or freed??!
John Wilde, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: Fruition

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
sawfoot _:

Tamed or freed??!


That question goes right to the heart of so many controversies...