dual-track awakening: a theory

dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/27/10 12:46 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Bruno Loff 5/27/10 10:44 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/27/10 11:38 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Bruno Loff 5/28/10 3:20 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/28/10 8:59 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/28/10 9:27 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Julius P0pp 5/30/10 2:53 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 5/30/10 9:38 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Bruno Loff 5/30/10 10:18 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 5/30/10 10:43 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/30/10 10:57 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 5/30/10 11:20 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/30/10 12:23 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/30/10 9:58 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 6/6/10 2:34 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/9/10 9:45 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 6/26/10 1:41 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 5/30/10 10:48 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/2/10 11:47 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/4/10 7:57 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 6/6/10 12:39 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/9/10 9:43 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory tarin greco 7/1/10 1:58 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Dan K 6/9/10 2:40 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/9/10 1:27 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Dan K 6/9/10 7:05 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/9/10 10:19 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Dan K 6/10/10 1:28 AM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Anon Anon 6/18/10 11:04 PM
RE: dual-track awakening: a theory Dan K 6/19/10 5:05 PM
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/27/10 12:46 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/27/10 12:24 AM

dual-track awakening: a theory

Posts: 40 Join Date: 5/26/10 Recent Posts
I encountered Daniel's work, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, quite some time ago, but have not been inclined to post much to this (very good, very valuable!) forum until now. I notice there's been a lot of talk in the past about the traditionally Buddhist 4-Path model of awakening vs. various models that emphasize an immediate, possibly temporary, grasping of insight into nonduality. I'd like to share my experience with both approaches, because I have never seen any discussion of an experience that matches mine, so it might be quite informative.

When I began intense vipassana, I could already see that many sensations were constantly vibrating or flickering, and as I climbed through the nanas, one of the major changes was in how they vibrated or flickered. The most prominent kind of change was in apparent frequency (i.e. they would be faster or slower, or or [in A&P] fluctuate in sync with the breath-cycle). However, not all phenomena flickered at the same frequency. Especially in the visual field, it was easy to see "patches" that would flicker at different rates, and these different rates, in combination with the movement of my attention, would produce strange kinds of interference effects ("disharmonies") along the borders of patches that had clearly different frequencies. Even all the way up in Equanimity, the width of my attention would encompass virtually all of the six senses, and, while the major variations in frequency would largely subside, there were always patches towards the edges that vibrated at different frequencies and demonstrated obvious interference effects.

Immediately after stream-entry, the major effect on frequency was that the width of my attention tended to be about as large as it was in Equanimity, no matter which review nana I was currently inhabiting, but the particular frequencies that I would see would be whichever were typical of the nana being reviewed.

First question: Has this been everyone's experience upon attaining stream-entry?

I found stream-entry to be simultaneously relieving as well as psychologically difficult to integrate. My mind felt excessively powerful afterwards, and I was having some trouble integrating the permanent, effortless Equanimity-like attentional width into everyday life. For example, eating was strange because instead of just being a matter of putting the fork to my mouth and tasting the food, the experience included , e.g., all of the intentions involved in using utensils, chewing, swallowing, etc, in a way that was extremely salient compared to what I was used to. The review cycles also moved pretty quickly, and reviewing Reobservation without much prior warning many times a day was disconcerting. These two things gave me a lot of problems, until I discovered a few days later what Kenneth Folk calls rigpa.

Here is the definition of rigpa that I am going to use, or rather, here is the state I mean to refer to by the word. One starts by looking around for the sense of being the perceiver of the six senses, or by asking "Who am I?" and waiting for it to present itself. Focusing on it, one reaches a state where it seems as if they are the subjectivity, the "I", that watches the entirety of awareness. Holding onto "I", it can either eventually diffuse into a state where it seems that one is some kind of subjectivity whose nature is more open than "I", or it can eventually disappear entirely. When it disappears entirely, what remains is a centerless kind of awareness, in which the five non-mental senses work as before, and in which certain aspects of cognition (such as the ability to analyze or closely observe or clearly recognize phenomena as one would when doing vipassana, as well as certain aspects of will / intention) are strongly inhibited, and in which there is no phemonenal arising of anything resembling a perceiver. This last state is what I mean by rigpa, and also what I think Kenneth means.

Anyhow, after discovering this state, I spent a lot of time trying to remain in it to figure out what it was, as at first all I could do was pop in and pop right back out. Once I got used to dwelling in it without popping out, I spent an hour or two in it without budging, and suddenly, something remarkable happened--in the course of about a minute, all of the visual patches that varied in frequency and produced disharmonies came to vibrate at the same frequency, and so my entire visual field was in virtually perfect synchrony. This was accompanied by immense feelings of bliss, relief, gratitude, and other things I can't express, which lasted for many hours in an intense form and for many days in a more subtle form, even when not dwelling in rigpa.

The interesting thing about this experience was that, firstly, it ended the psychological difficulties that came from trying to integrate the attentional width of Equanimity with everyday life, and secondly, the synchrony between the frequencies of phenomena, and so the lack of disharmonies, remained a constant for me for days afterwards...and weeks afterwards...and months afterwards...and here I am. And as long as harmony has prevailed in my sensate experience, the peace and surrender of rigpa has also prevailed.

Later paths did not make any difference to my experience concerning this synchrony among phenomena, though some of the wilder A&Ps would introduce some temporary and very subtle disharmonies, which went away after entering Dissolution.

So, here's my theory, based solely on my own experience and the bits I've read about other people's experiences. One way that practitioners can make spiritual progress is to attain one or more paths, which leads to a kind of non-dual awakening whose manifestation is the clear understanding that phenomena, including the thought "I", are not-self. This awakening is an ongoing experience, in that it isn't a fleeting state of consciousness, but is a permanent way of seeing. It has various symptoms, such as access to fruitions, cycling through nanas, easier access to jhanas, changes in attention, ability to make effective resolutions concerning re-attaining particular states, an ongoing experience of "having let go" and non-attachment, and so on. Another way that practitioners can make spiritual progress is to attain rigpa, and dwell in it without moving until it makes some kind of imprint on the psyche. Attaining rigpa is a fleeting thing, but the imprint is an ongoing, permanent experience, whose symptoms are peace, synchrony of phenomena, psychological stability, and understanding why people are tempted to talk about Awareness as if it were some kind of transcendental thing-that's-not-a-thing (despite whatever skepticism may be warranted). These two tracks of development are apparently separate, but related in some way...paths make the thought "I" transparent, rigpa takes the thought "I" away for a few moments, and in a way, those are similar outcomes.

I would love to hear about other people's experiences of vibration frequencies, synchrony and disharmony between frequencies, how those have been affected by being in different nanas, how those have been affected by path attainments, how those have been afftected by rigpa, or whatever else. There's lots of argument about rigpa, what it means, what it doesn't mean, and all that, but the fact remains that it can be attained by dedicated practitioners, and that, rather than just offering some kind of momentary benefit, there may be a good developmental reason to attain it. Thus, it's worth finding out whether my experiences (the post-stream entry disharmonies, their resolution by sustained dwelling in rigpa) are idiosyncratic or not.
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 5/27/10 10:44 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/27/10 10:40 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Very nice account. I have a question:

and in which certain aspects of cognition (such as the ability to analyze or closely observe or clearly recognize phenomena as one would when doing vipassana, as well as certain aspects of will / intention)


Did the "visual synchronization event" ended these inhibitions in cognition? I'm also having a problem with this kind of hazy, panoramic attention I currently have available (post stream-entry). Did this sort of thing sort itself out?
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/27/10 11:38 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/27/10 11:38 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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In a way. The inhibition I'm talking about is just that dwelling in rigpa isn't compatible with certain kinds of cognitive acts. Trying to analyze the experience would have the typical result of ending rigpa--so analysis works just fine, unless I wanted to actually stay in rigpa. Same for will and volition--trying to get up and do something works fine, but ends rigpa.

My experience then was after the visual synchrony, I was able to get enough stability in rigpa that I could do basic everyday stuff (walking around, reading, talking) without bouncing out of it, but jhana / vipassana, requiring a different order of effort, were still incompatible.

My experience now is that, if i dwell in rigpa for long enough, eventually it becomes obvious in some way that the experience is stable, and I can do basic everyday stuff while remaining in it. However, after the synchronization event, my interest in re-attaining rigpa is quite low. There doesn't seem to be much left that it has to offer--I seemed to get most of the good stuff from the synchronization event, and since synchronization is my ongoing experience, there isn't much need to re-attain rigpa. I do enter it once in a while when I have time to kill (e.g. waiting for a bus), and sometimes spontaneously without intention (sitting passively, in cases where I would previously have had wandering thoughts or daydreams). So I typically don't dwell in it long enough to make it stable nowadays.

Whatever problems of "hazy, panoramic attention" I had post-stream entry (mostly, finding all the sensory input disconcerting because it was too salient but still "jumpy" or unclear) while going about daily life were completely resolved by the synchronization event.

I should say, just to make myself completely clear, that the synchronization effect isn't any particular state, and is compatible with everything, including jhana and vipassana. Rigpa, or the absense of the arising of any kind of phenomenal perceiver, is different, not compatible with certain kinds of cognition, in that those kinds of cognition tend to cause a phenomenal perceiver to re-arise, which by definition isn't rigpa anymore.

What I would really like to know is whether, post-stream entry, most people experience the frequencies of phenomena in e.g. the visual field as basically synchronous, or with parts that are obviously disharmonized. I've never heard of anyone having a synchronization event besides me, but it could be because it happens immediately after stream-entry for most people and there are too many other interesting things that happen at that point for people to think it matters or is worth describing. Bruno, what has your experience been?
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 5/28/10 3:20 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/28/10 3:20 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Well visually I notice that as time progresses vision becomes more beautiful; this has been happening since A&P though. Colours are more intense, there is more detail and sharper contrasts. The last few weeks I've started noticing other visual stuff: I don't know if I would call it dissynchronization, it is a bit like if the field of vision was a lake, otherwise very clear except for some surface movement. Little subtle streaks move around, sometimes little blips of light show up, etc... maybe I could give this rigpa a try...

I also seem to have some sort of dual-track awakening. Just shortly after stream entry I worked on releasing a knot of tension in the base of the spine, and this has triggered kundalini to awaken, manifesting as a constant buzz at the base of the spine, which will sometimes shoot up into the brain, and then either to the third eye or crown, where it goes back down again through the front of the torso. Do you get that: if you focus on the base of the spine do you feel a constant buzz?

Bruno
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/28/10 8:59 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/28/10 8:59 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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About visual phenomena, I wonder if you would try to answer these questions for me: once you're focused enough to see visual phenomena vibrating with some clarity, looking straight ahead, at what frequency is whatever object that's at the center of the field vibrating? Without moving your eyes, looking at the left or rightmost edge of your visual field, at what frequency is whatever object that's there vibrating? If the frequencies are different, at what point between the center and the edge does one frequency give way to the other? If you can find such a point, what is it like?

A little bit after stream-entry, I noticed that I would experience a pleasant web of tingling sensations on any part of my body that I paid attention to. If I pay attention to the whole thing, then the whole thing tingles, but the spine / back area tingles most. The only time I've had anything feel like it was shooting anywhere was during A&P (sometimes a slow progression up my spinal column, sometimes an instantaneous blast), and I don't seem get this just by focusing on my spine. Actually, I assumed that the reason I felt this tingling was because the default state after stream entry is A&P review. (The thing that characterized my A&Ps more than anything was "physical manifestation of kundalini", meaning shaking, blasts of energy, orgasm sensations, the sensation of the body being torn apart or exploding, constant hand tremor, etc. So a little bit of tingling seemed like what I'd expect a low-key version of those things to be, as I'd expect to see in A&P review.) I'm not sure if this is referring to the same thing as your experience, though.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/28/10 9:27 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/28/10 9:27 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Bruno Loff:
maybe I could give this rigpa a try...


Yeah, why not? The neat thing about it is that you don't have to have any particular opinion about what it means or doesn't mean, and attaining it won't necessarily give you any particular opinion either. So you can sidestep the whole debate, and just check it out.

The state that comes before it, aka the Witness, dwelling as "I", no-dog, or whatever you want to call it, was in my opinion without value for anything except attaining rigpa, because it's no fun being a giant formless ego. Or at least that's what I thought until I got what I understood to be third path after dwelling as "I" (not allowing it to lead to rigpa) with a ton of concentration, and doing vipassana in that state. This was a Big Deal, because getting third path was something I had been struggling with ineffectually for a long while before that. So, learning the preliminary state that comes before rigpa can be useful for other stuff, whether or not it gets you to rigpa quickly.
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 9:38 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 9:38 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:

Immediately after stream-entry, the major effect on frequency was that the width of my attention tended to be about as large as it was in Equanimity, no matter which review nana I was currently inhabiting, but the particular frequencies that I would see would be whichever were typical of the nana being reviewed.

First question: Has this been everyone's experience upon attaining stream-entry?


yes, and so i thought, 'what's the point of cycling through the nanas/going through the paths' if everything just looks like this.

the paths continued to happen anyway.


Anon Anon:

Here is the definition of rigpa that I am going to use, or rather, here is the state I mean to refer to by the word. One starts by looking around for the sense of being the perceiver of the six senses, or by asking "Who am I?" and waiting for it to present itself. Focusing on it, one reaches a state where it seems as if they are the subjectivity, the "I", that watches the entirety of awareness. Holding onto "I", it can either eventually diffuse into a state where it seems that one is some kind of subjectivity whose nature is more open than "I", or it can eventually disappear entirely. When it disappears entirely, what remains is a centerless kind of awareness, in which the five non-mental senses work as before, and in which certain aspects of cognition (such as the ability to analyze or closely observe or clearly recognize phenomena as one would when doing vipassana, as well as certain aspects of will / intention) are strongly inhibited, and in which there is no phemonenal arising of anything resembling a perceiver. This last state is what I mean by rigpa, and also what I think Kenneth means.

Anyhow, after discovering this state, I spent a lot of time trying to remain in it to figure out what it was, as at first all I could do was pop in and pop right back out. Once I got used to dwelling in it without popping out, I spent an hour or two in it without budging, and suddenly, something remarkable happened--in the course of about a minute, all of the visual patches that varied in frequency and produced disharmonies came to vibrate at the same frequency, and so my entire visual field was in virtually perfect synchrony. This was accompanied by immense feelings of bliss, relief, gratitude, and other things I can't express, which lasted for many hours in an intense form and for many days in a more subtle form, even when not dwelling in rigpa.


meta-fruition - this sounds like it was a new path-moment.

Anon Anon:

So, here's my theory, based solely on my own experience and the bits I've read about other people's experiences. One way that practitioners can make spiritual progress is to attain one or more paths, which leads to a kind of non-dual awakening whose manifestation is the clear understanding that phenomena, including the thought "I", are not-self. This awakening is an ongoing experience, in that it isn't a fleeting state of consciousness, but is a permanent way of seeing. It has various symptoms, such as access to fruitions, cycling through nanas, easier access to jhanas, changes in attention, ability to make effective resolutions concerning re-attaining particular states, an ongoing experience of "having let go" and non-attachment, and so on. Another way that practitioners can make spiritual progress is to attain rigpa, and dwell in it without moving until it makes some kind of imprint on the psyche.


can you be more precise about what the imprint that attaining rigpa makes on the psyche is which is different from the 'ongoing experience of "having let go" and nonattachment' you characterise as being brought about by path-attainment?

Anon Anon:

I would love to hear about other people's experiences of vibration frequencies, synchrony and disharmony between frequencies, how those have been affected by being in different nanas, how those have been affected by path attainments, how those have been afftected by rigpa, or whatever else. There's lots of argument about rigpa, what it means, what it doesn't mean, and all that, but the fact remains that it can be attained by dedicated practitioners, and that, rather than just offering some kind of momentary benefit, there may be a good developmental reason to attain it. Thus, it's worth finding out whether my experiences (the post-stream entry disharmonies, their resolution by sustained dwelling in rigpa) are idiosyncratic or not.


post-stream entry, i found the disharmonies more prominent because i could rest and let them emerge from the woodwork without all too much bother (this 'i' was just an illusion, after all), and so the more complex, and subtle, (dis)harmonics came into view (which view was, being better-balanced in general, no longer such a trade-off between depth of clarity and width of focus as it had been earlier).

just out of curiosity, does the following statement mean anything to you?:

what you appear to be looking through is part of what you're looking at.

tarin
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:18 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:18 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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"What you appear to be looking through is part of what you're looking at" makes tons of sense to me. And whatever it is, it feels painful, and it feels like it's in the middle of the brain, with some connection to the middle of the forehead and the top of the head. Does that make sense to anyone else?
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:43 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:41 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Bruno Loff:
"What you appear to be looking through is part of what you're looking at" makes tons of sense to me. And whatever it is, it feels painful, and it feels like it's in the middle of the brain, with some connection to the middle of the forehead and the top of the head. Does that make sense to anyone else?


painful? are you sure? look closer... maybe it's more like.... paneful, like a pane of see-through glass? with some dirty smudges on it.. wait, bring it into focus... oh, those little specks.. is that all it ever was..?

;)
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:57 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:56 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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tarin greco:

meta-fruition - this sounds like it was a new path-moment.


It seemed to me like a path moment for a different track of awakening. It didn't at all resemble the attaining of a path that one gets through vipassana. No moment of cessation, for instance.

tarin greco:

can you be more precise about what the imprint that attaining rigpa makes on the psyche is which is different from the 'ongoing experience of "having let go" and nonattachment' you characterise as being brought about by path-attainment?


I'll have to think about it some more in order to say something precise. But for now, I remember wondering after stream entry whether all this nonduality stuff was just an acquired taste, or just of benefit for people who had some kind of interest in buddhism, consciousness, mysticism, introspection, or whatever. After the imprint moment, I had no doubt that where I was at was somewhere that everyone would benefit from, because of the clear appreciation of how "I" is oppressive, and the visceral sense of relief that comes by first letting go of it and then subduing it in some kind of semi-permanent way.

tarin greco:

just out of curiosity, does the following statement mean anything to you?:

what you appear to be looking through is part of what you're looking at.


Sure. "I" presents as if it were a perspective that sensations take, as if sensations were being funnelled towards or through it. But this "funnelling towards" perspective is illusory when taken to be something more than phenomenology; "I" is just one more thing that presents itself to awareness, one more thing being looked at. In other words, when the thought "I" arises, what arises is an experience that presents as this kind of funnelling of sensations.

Somehow it is as if "I" takes a lot of cognitive processing power to maintain. When it goes away in rigpa, the senses present with extra clarity, and without the "funnelling towards" phenomenology superimposed on them they present as pure Suchness, neither subject nor object.


Also, thanks for sharing your experiences regarding disharmonies. Did you ever get rid of them, and if so, what led up to it?
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 11:20 AM
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RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:
tarin greco:

meta-fruition - this sounds like it was a new path-moment.


It seemed to me like a path moment for a different track of awakening. It didn't at all resemble the attaining of a path that one gets through vipassana. No moment of cessation, for instance.


not everyone notices a cessation, nor notices a cessation every time, which opens the question about whether or not there is always a cessation-moment (but i'll sidestep that and leave it for scholars to deal with).


Anon Anon:

Also, thanks for sharing your experiences regarding disharmonies. Did you ever get rid of them, and if so, what led up to it?


you're welcome, yes, and getting actual freedom meant freedom from (things) feeling out of synchrony (as what appears to be synching and un-synching is a feeling-fed/feeling-felt illusion).

tarin
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 12:23 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 12:23 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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tarin greco:
Anon Anon:
tarin greco:

meta-fruition - this sounds like it was a new path-moment.


It seemed to me like a path moment for a different track of awakening. It didn't at all resemble the attaining of a path that one gets through vipassana. No moment of cessation, for instance.


not everyone notices a cessation, nor notices a cessation every time, which opens the question about whether or not there is always a cessation-moment (but i'll sidestep that and leave it for scholars to deal with).


Other differences include that it unfolded over >5 seconds rather than instantaneously, and that there was a shift in the contents of experience with respect to the arising of "I" and the flickering rates of phenomena, and not a shift that concerned any sort of fundamental insight, i.e. the transparency of whatever phenomena that arise (which has always been obvious to me after paths).


tarin greco:
Anon Anon:

Also, thanks for sharing your experiences regarding disharmonies. Did you ever get rid of them, and if so, what led up to it?


you're welcome, yes, and getting actual freedom meant freedom from (things) feeling out of synchrony (as what appears to be synching and un-synching is a feeling-fed/feeling-felt illusion).


Hmm.
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Julius P0pp, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 2:53 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 2:53 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Bruno Loff:
I'm also having a problem with this kind of hazy, panoramic attention I currently have available (post stream-entry). Did this sort of thing sort itself out?


I know the problem, but differing from you guys this state was less and less available and rarer and 3 weeks or so after SE stopped to happen, I did not yet figure out how to trigger it, even when it was new and fresh I couldn't sit with it for two hours as you did, Anon.

About the vibrations, I enjoy them in my visual field for 9 months or so now, but I only had parts (colours) whose vibes were obvious and other patches where it wasn't. That these vibrations are more obvious in the area where my attention is focused has remained since. Frequency right now is 2.5-3 Hz. But I can't find non-synchrony. On the other hand I do not note.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 9:58 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 9:58 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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tarin greco:
Anon Anon:

Also, thanks for sharing your experiences regarding disharmonies. Did you ever get rid of them, and if so, what led up to it?


you're welcome, yes, and getting actual freedom meant freedom from (things) feeling out of synchrony (as what appears to be synching and un-synching is a feeling-fed/feeling-felt illusion).


So, I don't know much about AF. I'm trying to figure out whether what I call rigpa is a PCE or not. Some things make me think so, other things make me think not. The jargon that you AF people tend to use also makes things murkier for me.

Let's do a quick comparison of experiences and perhaps it will shed some light on things.

1. During your FIRST post-stream entry PCE, what effect did this have on the disharmonies you noticed?

2. During your first SUSTAINED post-stream entry PCE, what effect did this have on the disharmonies you noticed?

And just out of curiosity,

3. Do you still experience vibrations in your current state? Without undue effort to observe them, what frequency are they?

Here are my answers for what I'm calling rigpa:

1. After stream entry I would fall into rigpa for a fraction of a second anytime my mind wasn't occupied and I wasn't doing anything effortful. The most common time would be if I were observing my breath---in the gap between the exhalation and the next inhalation, rigpa would occur. Entering the state would synchronize all visual vibrations, beginning from around the center and radiating outwards, and as this wave of synchronized vibrations encountered the dissynchronized ones further out, there would be a wave of interference at the outward-moving border. This was rather disconcerting.

2. I already answered this for my experience of rigpa in my original post.

3. Beginning at my default level of concentration, at A&P review, observing between one exhalation and the next inhalation, my entire visual field vibrates at about 3hz. It is as close to completely synchronous as I can discern through off-the-cuff observation.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:48 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 5/30/10 10:31 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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tarin greco:
Anon Anon:

Also, thanks for sharing your experiences regarding disharmonies. Did you ever get rid of them, and if so, what led up to it?


you're welcome, yes, and getting actual freedom meant freedom from (things) feeling out of synchrony (as what appears to be synching and un-synching is a feeling-fed/feeling-felt illusion).


Actually, I want to come back to this point, to make sure that we understand each other.

I played around with rigpa today and here are my observations. My best analysis of what happens is as follows. (Keep in mind that the state is nearly unanalyzable for me until it's stable.)

1. Experiencing "I" in everyday life, it is as if "I" and the visual field are out of sync with each other, and attention jumps back and forth between the two constantly in order to notice both. This kind of cross-modal dissynchrony gives rise to the impression that one is out-of-sync with the world, but it is extremely subtle compared to any similar impression in my pre-stream entry experience, and also extremely subtle compared to how I felt post-stream entry, before I got my sensations to synchronize. (The experience of getting them to synchronize was getting them to synchronize WITHIN sensory modalities. At the time I didn't pay attention to cross-modal stuff. See below.)

2. Rigpa begins with "I" disappearing, but it is as if attention continues to jump between the visual field and where "I" used to be, repeatedly coming up empty. Feeling out-of-sync continues. Little intentions or attempts at analysis cause "I" to reappear immediately.

3. When the impression of stability is reached, attention no longer looks around for "I", and what remains is the impression of a direct, unmediated experience of the sensate world. Some kinds of experiences of the cognitive world are attenuated, but verbal thoughts / visualizing / etc. are possible on command. Synchrony within modalities is no different than ever.

So. Is this what you were talking about above?

If so, this was NOT what I was originally talking about. The disharmonies and varying frequencies I was referring to were within modalities (in particular, within vision). However, what you've brought up seems highly relevant nonetheless. Here's my clarified account:

1. Pre-stream entry, everything was dissynchronized, both within modalities and between the senses and "I".

2. Immediately post-stream entry, within modalities the dissynchrony and disharmony continued, but as far as I can recall I think the dissynchrony between the senses and "I" was better somehow.

3. After attaining synchrony through dwelling in rigpa, everything was synchronized within modalities, and attention didn't look for "I".

4. Nowadays, without making any special efforts, there is within-modality synchrony, but still dissynchrony between the senses and "I", since "I" still arises whever I don't go out of my way to suppress it. I think that the amount of this dissynchrony has somehow decreased by attaining further paths after stream entry, but I can't say I paid close enough attention to this.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/2/10 11:47 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/2/10 11:47 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:
tarin greco:

can you be more precise about what the imprint that attaining rigpa makes on the psyche is which is different from the 'ongoing experience of "having let go" and nonattachment' you characterise as being brought about by path-attainment?


I'll have to think about it some more in order to say something precise.


It's hard to say much about this without the proviso that what I'm saying is a bit tentative, because the time between the attainment of those two things for me wasn't very long. My best and most concrete impression of what the difference was, post-"impression", was that the thought "I" is somehow subdued or tends to manifest in a more diffuse and softer way than before. People on this forum who have attained paths seem always to talk about seeing whatever phenomena they previously call "I" as fundamentally not-self, even though "I" continues to arise and pass as before. The "impression" that I'm talking about seemed to have the effect that the default state for me is that the phenomena called "I" has given way to something more diffuse which arises and passes instead, which (by virtue of path attainment) is seen to be fundamentally not-self. The effect is reversible, in that I can call up the old, hard "I" of the Witness state if I want to, but my mind inclines to generating the soft, diffuse "I" instead when left to do its own thing.

Trading hard "I" for soft "I" seems to lead to a better mood, more psychological stability, and things along those lines.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 7:57 PM
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RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Tarin, still around?
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 6/6/10 2:34 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/6/10 10:39 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:


Let's do a quick comparison of experiences and perhaps it will shed some light on things.

1. During your FIRST post-stream entry PCE, what effect did this have on the disharmonies you noticed?

2. During your first SUSTAINED post-stream entry PCE, what effect did this have on the disharmonies you noticed?


during that pce itself (my first post-stream entry pce was the same one as my first sustained post-stream entry pce), there were no disharmonies. and prior to that pce, i cannot say, as i was not paying attention to that sort of thing (i was just stepping out the door for an unplanned early-morning walk). however, prior to subsequent pce's, i did notice that whatever dyssynchronies were there would first align, then vanish entirely (and reveal the crystal clear experience of what it is, exactly, to be a sensate and reflective human being, alive here and now).

Anon Anon:

And just out of curiosity,

3. Do you still experience vibrations in your current state? Without undue effort to observe them, what frequency are they?


no, i don't. there is a vibrancy in the sheer sensuousness of what i experience, but it is incredibly still here. things no longer vibrate in 'time'.

here's a question for you: when things are vibrating in perfect synchrony, what/where is it that you are perceiving things vibrating in relation to?

tarin
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 6/6/10 12:39 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/6/10 12:36 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:
Anon Anon:
tarin greco:

can you be more precise about what the imprint that attaining rigpa makes on the psyche is which is different from the 'ongoing experience of "having let go" and nonattachment' you characterise as being brought about by path-attainment?


I'll have to think about it some more in order to say something precise.


It's hard to say much about this without the proviso that what I'm saying is a bit tentative, because the time between the attainment of those two things for me wasn't very long. My best and most concrete impression of what the difference was, post-"impression", was that the thought "I" is somehow subdued or tends to manifest in a more diffuse and softer way than before. People on this forum who have attained paths seem always to talk about seeing whatever phenomena they previously call "I" as fundamentally not-self, even though "I" continues to arise and pass as before. The "impression" that I'm talking about seemed to have the effect that the default state for me is that the phenomena called "I" has given way to something more diffuse which arises and passes instead, which (by virtue of path attainment) is seen to be fundamentally not-self. The effect is reversible, in that I can call up the old, hard "I" of the Witness state if I want to, but my mind inclines to generating the soft, diffuse "I" instead when left to do its own thing.


theory 1: this is a difference between the insights of earlier paths and later paths. earlier paths replace 'i' with 'not-i' (the hard 'i' of the witness state becomes the soft, diffuse 'i' which is seen to just arise and pass on its own), later paths take i/not-i and replace it with no-i-at-all (which you're calling rigpa)

theory 2: there are indeed (no fewer than) two tracks of spiritual awakening.

theory 3: you're talking about a pce when you refer to rigpa.

which last possibility leads me to ask: is it so that, in the absence of the feeling of being (absence of the sense of i completely), there is likewise the absence of any affective experience (the experience of moods/passions/feelings) ... and is it obvious, upon reflection, why this is the case? (that is, is it obvious that the feeling of being is part and parcel of the movement of feelings?)

Anon Anon:

Trading hard "I" for soft "I" seems to lead to a better mood, more psychological stability, and things along those lines.


comparatively, what does trading the i-phenomenon (whether hard or soft) for what you are calling 'rigpa' lead to?

tarin
Dan K, modified 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 2:40 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 2:40 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Hi Anon,

I have experienced a "synchronization event". The context is unclear because it happened during sleep. I noticed a many-fold symmetry forming around my center of attention. The symmetry was of dark and light oscillating back and forth. There was the sensation of a powerful exertion followed by perfect synchronization and breaking through the middle, finding myself in a luminously clear and blissful, but otherwise boundless and featureless place. Locked into this perspective, I was able to observe the arising and passing away of the "I"/other duality.

I woke up after some dreaming. Something was different (and still is a month later). The idea of wanting something intently is impossible. There is a kind of counterbalance in place now where mental movements are automatically coupled with a counter-movement a split second later, making sensations less sticky. It basically feels like being in 4th vipassana jhana all the time. This counterbalance must be related to the synchronization, so I wonder if you have experience with something like that.

I can see what you mean by physical vibrations being in sync. I can't do vipassana on physical sensations because I don't have the frequency differential to focus on. The frequency differentials are still there, it's just that they go *poof* like sand in the wind as soon as I attend to them. I had assumed that my career in vipassana was over, but you state that you have been moving through the paths so now I'm requestioning. Would you care to comment on what has been your object of vipassana since the synchronization?

There is still the sensation of "I" (or, more generally, subjectivity), but it floats around and sort of associates with this or that depending on context. When I put attention to it, it becomes formless and is quite obviously nowhere, and shortly fades away, but not to what I understand as "rigpa". It is seen to come and go, and it can be seen as inseparably associated with objectification and intention/action/movement/feeling. I'm not sure whether the Theravada insight map is particularly applicable to me on account of my style of investigation being different and my experiences hardly matching up, but hopefully this is enough information to place me somewhere along the map for the purposes of this discussion.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 9:45 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 9:35 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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tarin greco:
here's a question for you: when things are vibrating in perfect synchrony, what/where is it that you are perceiving things vibrating in relation to?


On one hand, the answer is "in relation to themselves at a prior point in time". It's the same as if one asked "when you see a person moving, what do you perceive them moving in relation to?" One may see them moving in relation to their environment over time (comparable to dissynchrony), and in the case that one sees them moving against a completely blank background (comparable to synchrony), one uses the coordinates of the field (left / right / up / down / forward / back) to compare their states over time and describe their motion.

On the other hand, there is also the sense that it is attention that's moving, not necessarily the object. When one prepares for jhana, at the beginning there is the sense that attention keeps "sliding off" the object and that one needs applied and sustained thought to continually re-attach it to the object. (More accurately, perhaps "applied and sustained thought" just is the sense of sliding off / reapplication.) Once applied and sustained thought end, there is the impression that the object is not observed to vibrate in the same way as before---one seems more in sync with things (cross-modal synchrony). Which suggests that the phenomenon of "I" is wrapped up with cognition / attention in some way.

Not sure what you had in mind with this question.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 9:43 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 9:43 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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tarin greco:
which last possibility leads me to ask: is it so that, in the absence of the feeling of being (absence of the sense of i completely), there is likewise the absence of any affective experience (the experience of moods/passions/feelings) ... and is it obvious, upon reflection, why this is the case? (that is, is it obvious that the feeling of being is part and parcel of the movement of feelings?)


It might depend on exactly what you mean by "affective experience". Without the feeling of subjectivity, phenomena continue to have pleasant / unplesant / neutral vedana...but without "I" entangled around them, the experience is quite different. For example, It is as if, when listening to enjoyable music, the music itself is enjoyable or interesting, ie those are properties of the music rather than properties of one's reaction to the music, how one likes it, how one feels about it, etc. (This is fundamentally different from seeing that when one enjoys something, the sense of "I" enjoying it is illusory and that the entire experience is really nondual, not-self.)

Without "I", there seems to be a kind of all-pervading equanimity that isn't a mood (equanimity without the feeling of equanimity). It's very pure, quiet, innocent, and for lack of a better word, "good". I don't know what it's compatible with or not compatible with; it needs more real-world testing. (I'll get back to you about it.)

Reflection doesn't make things much clearer to me, because there's something radically different about experience without "I" that makes that kind of experience hard to review, reflect on, or understand (for me) once "I" returns. It's as if I have to make mental notes at the time, and review the notes later. Perhaps this is why I said in my original post that I don't have much interest in re-attaining that state. When attaining it, it seems like it's important. Once it's gone, it seems much less so.

The best reflection I can do at the moment is with regard to an issue that Bruno seems to have concerning how someone can choose to do things, be motivated to act, etc. without phenomenal emotions or desires. Sidestepping the issue of whether "rigpa = PCE", playing around with it has made clear to me that a lot of our behavior doesn't occur for the reasons we think it does. We don't act *because* we have the phenomenon of desire with something as its object. The phenomenon of desire ("I" desiring something) isn't necessarily part of the causal chain. Rather, we just act, and depending on what state of mind we're in, perhaps the phenomenon of desiring something precedes our act, and perhaps it doesn't. In some ways, the phenomenon is more like an epiphenomenon; a little illustrative flourish, non-causal with respect to many kinds of behavior, dispensable. This becomes clear after the observation that behavior can proceed pretty much as before, with or without it.

This seems related to the fundamental insight of nonduality. Behavior just happens, phenomena just arise, undirected by a self, directed only by the unmanifest, inferred causal order of the world. The belief that one needs the phenomenal trappings of self in order to behave in a "normal" way seems like an unquestioned assumption that's been held over from one's pre-awakening theories about one's own psychology.

tarin greco:
comparatively, what does trading the i-phenomenon (whether hard or soft) for what you are calling 'rigpa' lead to?


Again, I'll address this later when I can be clear about it.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 1:27 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 10:40 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Dan K:
Hi Anon,

I have experienced a "synchronization event". The context is unclear because it happened during sleep. I noticed a many-fold symmetry forming around my center of attention. The symmetry was of dark and light oscillating back and forth. There was the sensation of a powerful exertion followed by perfect synchronization and breaking through the middle, finding myself in a luminously clear and blissful, but otherwise boundless and featureless place. Locked into this perspective, I was able to observe the arising and passing away of the "I"/other duality.

I woke up after some dreaming. Something was different (and still is a month later). The idea of wanting something intently is impossible. There is a kind of counterbalance in place now where mental movements are automatically coupled with a counter-movement a split second later, making sensations less sticky. It basically feels like being in 4th vipassana jhana all the time. This counterbalance must be related to the synchronization, so I wonder if you have experience with something like that.


Well, I'd like to ask you if you can be more specific in describing what the "counter-movement" is. I think we have different ways of describing our phenomenal worlds, so there's a bit of gap-bridging to be done first.

Post-SE, I have had the sense of my default state being like the 4th vipasanna jhana in terms of attentional width and equanimity, except my experience of that state pre-SE was with dissynchrony, and my experience of things now is without.

Is there any ongoing difference in your experience of "I"? What is it like in everyday life?

I have some experience with meaningful spontaneous experiences that occur during dreams, but for me they are clearly A&P events, and they tend to involve cognitive processes that are really, really bizarre and not easily describable. And I tend to wake up sometime during them.

When this event occured for you, were you dreaming or in some other state of sleep? (I think that the phenomenon of "I" does not arise in other stages of sleep, so possibly this is the same kind of thing as rigpa-while-awake that got me to my synchronization event.) Was there something recent (at the time) that could have predisposed you to it, such as a new path?

Dan K:
I can see what you mean by physical vibrations being in sync. I can't do vipassana on physical sensations because I don't have the frequency differential to focus on. The frequency differentials are still there, it's just that they go *poof* like sand in the wind as soon as I attend to them. I had assumed that my career in vipassana was over, but you state that you have been moving through the paths so now I'm requestioning. Would you care to comment on what has been your object of vipassana since the synchronization?


Instead of attending to the differentials between vibrations within some modality, can you attend to the absolute vibration of that modality? I mean, eg if your entire visual field vibrates in sync with itself, the absolute frequency of the field seems like a good candidate.

Post-2nd path, I found that the best vipassana objects for me were (in no special order)

-whatever is happening now, broken into moments as small as possible,
-the phenomenon of "I" ("who is experiencing this?"),
-mood (hard to observe clearly, doesn't consistently break up into vibrations, but seems helpful anyway)
-the tiny, momentary mental stuff that's involved in attention, noting, intention, and so on,
-tiny, momentary quasi-verbal cognitions (e.g. "noting properly", "this is working", "how much longer?")

EDIT: In case I didn't make this clear, the vibration of the entire visual field, or of the visual stuff that arises with eyes closed, made fine vipassana objects immediately after the synchronization. The trouble you mention is something I did not experience. I just mentioned what the better alternatives have been since then.

The latter two are particularly good if you're having some sort of trouble finding vibrations. For me, they arise and pass too quickly to see them hang around and vibrate over time. But because they arise and pass so quickly, observing them seems just as good as observing quick vibrations of static objects. On the other hand, at least for quasi-verbal cognitions, you may not have an ongoing stream of them (I do), or they may end as you start to observe them (mine don't). In that case, you could try generating some just for the purpose of observing them...


Dan K:
There is still the sensation of "I" (or, more generally, subjectivity), but it floats around and sort of associates with this or that depending on context. When I put attention to it, it becomes formless and is quite obviously nowhere, and shortly fades away, but not to what I understand as "rigpa".


About whether it's "rigpa", all I have to go on is a description of how I get there. It's hard to judge off-the-bat whether people are talking about the same thing or different things, since the common descriptions of what happens once you get there tend to be quite thin.

Are you familiar with some other state that you call "rigpa"?

What is it like when "I" fades away? Does it stay that way indefinitely?

Dan K:
It is seen to come and go, and it can be seen as inseparably associated with objectification and intention/action/movement/feeling. I'm not sure whether the Theravada insight map is particularly applicable to me on account of my style of investigation being different and my experiences hardly matching up, but hopefully this is enough information to place me somewhere along the map for the purposes of this discussion.


How would you assess yourself in terms of the 4-path model? Pre- or post-SE? Pre- or post-SE when you had your synchronization event?
Dan K, modified 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 7:05 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 7:04 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:

Well, I'd like to ask you if you can be more specific in describing what the "counter-movement" is. I think we have different ways of describing our phenomenal worlds, so there's a bit of gap-bridging to be done first.


A sensation will occur. The mind will tend to sweep in an engulfing way around the sensation along one axis of rotation. A tiny bit later, the mind sweeps around it the other way along the same axis of rotation. The two motions tend to cancel each other out. I think this sort of thing is happening non-spatially as well, but I'm not able to discern the mechanics.

Anon Anon:

Post-SE, I have had the sense of my default state being like the 4th vipasanna jhana in terms of attentional width and equanimity, except my experience of that state pre-SE was with dissynchrony, and my experience of things now is without.

Is there any ongoing difference in your experience of "I"? What is it like in everyday life?


When I am by myself, the label "I" does not usually occur unless I think about. There is still subjectivity and the impression things being willed to happen, although it appears automatic when I attend to it. When I am with others, there is usually a pretty strong notion of "I", and it feels as real as anything unless I really try to dissolve it. I think these two are different I's, one transcendental and one personal, although I'm not sure about this.

Anon Anon:

I have some experience with meaningful spontaneous experiences that occur during dreams, but for me they are clearly A&P events, and they tend to involve cognitive processes that are really, really bizarre and not easily describable. And I tend to wake up sometime during them.

When this event occured for you, were you dreaming or in some other state of sleep? (I think that the phenomenon of "I" does not arise in other stages of sleep, so possibly this is the same kind of thing as rigpa-while-awake that got me to my synchronization event.) Was there something recent (at the time) that could have predisposed you to it, such as a new path?


It was an "other" state of sleep. I don't know how to categorize it. It's a state of awareness with very little or no mindfulness. Occasionally something interesting happens and mindfulness is brought to bear on what's going on. When I remember, it is clear that awareness was present but being attended to very passively. Otherwise I don't remember anything. This has only happened a handful of times and I have no ability to willfully replicate it so there's not much to say. It does tend to happen more when I am mentally fatigued or if I have been investigating rigorously.

Anon Anon:
Dan K:
I can see what you mean by physical vibrations being in sync. I can't do vipassana on physical sensations because I don't have the frequency differential to focus on. The frequency differentials are still there, it's just that they go *poof* like sand in the wind as soon as I attend to them. I had assumed that my career in vipassana was over, but you state that you have been moving through the paths so now I'm requestioning. Would you care to comment on what has been your object of vipassana since the synchronization?


Instead of attending to the differentials between vibrations within some modality, can you attend to the absolute vibration of that modality? I mean, eg if your entire visual field vibrates in sync with itself, the absolute frequency of the field seems like a good candidate.


I can do this. Is there a point to this other than stilling the mind?

Anon Anon:

The latter two are particularly good if you're having some sort of trouble finding vibrations. For me, they arise and pass too quickly to see them hang around and vibrate over time. But because they arise and pass so quickly, observing them seems just as good as observing quick vibrations of static objects. On the other hand, at least for quasi-verbal cognitions, you may not have an ongoing stream of them (I do), or they may end as you start to observe them (mine don't). In that case, you could try generating some just for the purpose of observing them...


The "problem" isn't that I can't find vibrations, it's that I'm stuck in 4th vipassana jhana so there's nowhere to go with the vibrations, nor does there seem to be any gain from looking at them. There is still plenty of stuff for me to work with, but I would classify them more as waves than vibrations. For example, the process of objectification is seen to be wavelike and makes a good object of inquiry.

Anon Anon:
Dan K:
There is still the sensation of "I" (or, more generally, subjectivity), but it floats around and sort of associates with this or that depending on context. When I put attention to it, it becomes formless and is quite obviously nowhere, and shortly fades away, but not to what I understand as "rigpa".


About whether it's "rigpa", all I have to go on is a description of how I get there. It's hard to judge off-the-bat whether people are talking about the same thing or different things, since the common descriptions of what happens once you get there tend to be quite thin.

Are you familiar with some other state that you call "rigpa"?

What is it like when "I" fades away? Does it stay that way indefinitely?


There is another state which I associate with "rigpa". It is the perfect understanding that this is all there is and there is nothing else to it. It is a perfectly non-profound (at the time) and non associative state. I don't have much experience with this state and I do not know if there is any relationship between this and what happens when subjectivity starts to fade. It's not something I have worked on for whatever reason. I'll experiment a little and get back to you.

Anon Anon:

How would you assess yourself in terms of the 4-path model? Pre- or post-SE? Pre- or post-SE when you had your synchronization event?


Post SE when I had the event. I interpreted the synchronization event as a path moment. My working hypothesis is 4th path, based on the fact that I'm stuck in 4th vipassana jhana, but it's too early to say.
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 10:19 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/9/10 10:19 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Well, here's the results of this thread so far:

Experienced a permanent synchronization of vibrations?

Me: yes.
Dan K: yes.
Bruno: no.
Julius: no?
Tarin: yes (as a consequence of AF).

It seems like there's something to this synchronization stuff, though the big picture is still murky. Anyone else care to chime in? How about Daniel?

Dan K:
Anon Anon:

Well, I'd like to ask you if you can be more specific in describing what the "counter-movement" is. I think we have different ways of describing our phenomenal worlds, so there's a bit of gap-bridging to be done first.


A sensation will occur. The mind will tend to sweep in an engulfing way around the sensation along one axis of rotation. A tiny bit later, the mind sweeps around it the other way along the same axis of rotation. The two motions tend to cancel each other out. I think this sort of thing is happening non-spatially as well, but I'm not able to discern the mechanics.


Can you describe what you mean when the mind "sweeps"? Is it a kinaesthetic phenomenon? I can't say that I know what this corresponds to in my own descriptive language...

Dan K:
Anon Anon:
Instead of attending to the differentials between vibrations within some modality, can you attend to the absolute vibration of that modality? I mean, eg if your entire visual field vibrates in sync with itself, the absolute frequency of the field seems like a good candidate.


I can do this. Is there a point to this other than stilling the mind?


When I do it, it leads me through a review cycle, as any other object for vipassana would (but see below about my post-synchronization state and nanas).

Dan K:
The "problem" isn't that I can't find vibrations, it's that I'm stuck in 4th vipassana jhana so there's nowhere to go with the vibrations, nor does there seem to be any gain from looking at them. There is still plenty of stuff for me to work with, but I would classify them more as waves than vibrations. For example, the process of objectification is seen to be wavelike and makes a good object of inquiry.


OK, got it. Can you explain what you mean by there not being any gain by looking at them? Can you get a fruition (for example) by looking at them?

Dan K:
Anon Anon:
Are you familiar with some other state that you call "rigpa"?

What is it like when "I" fades away? Does it stay that way indefinitely?


There is another state which I associate with "rigpa". It is the perfect understanding that this is all there is and there is nothing else to it. It is a perfectly non-profound (at the time) and non associative state. I don't have much experience with this state and I do not know if there is any relationship between this and what happens when subjectivity starts to fade. It's not something I have worked on for whatever reason. I'll experiment a little and get back to you.


Looking forward to it.

Dan K:
Anon Anon:

How would you assess yourself in terms of the 4-path model? Pre- or post-SE? Pre- or post-SE when you had your synchronization event?


Post SE when I had the event. I interpreted the synchronization event as a path moment. My working hypothesis is 4th path, based on the fact that I'm stuck in 4th vipassana jhana, but it's too early to say.


In case you find it helpful, I'll share my experience with this phenomenon ("stuck in 4th vipassana jhana") insofar as I've experienced something like it. (Perhaps this should be split off into another thread?)

Pre-SE, nanas were experienced as big, obvious shifts in my state of consciousness, with a variety of typical attentional, perceptual, and affective characteristics. Nanas were to be feared, or at least respected, because they could make my life really unpleasant in the right (wrong) circumstances.

Immediately post-SE, nanas (during review) were pretty much like they were pre-SE, but with the attentional width of the 4th jhana superimposed on them somewhat. Also, there was a kind of equanimity garnered from pure insight superimposed as well (like, "oh, I don't exist in the way that I thought I did, so there's less to worry about"). But overall, they presented pretty much as before. One of the most distinctive features of their presentation, dissynchronies that varied based on which nana it was, continued to manifest, and made diagnosing "which nana is this?" somewhat easy.

After synchronization, all nanas except for A&P typically present as a kind of shadow of themselves: not big shifts in states of consciousness, but comparatively small tweaks of a state that is 4th jhana-like and somewhat permanent. The state is characterized by a lot of equanimity, extremely wide attention, a diffused sense of "I", and no within-modality dissynchronies.

Because synchronization occurred soon after SE, at the time I thought to myself "nanas appear to be tempered by SE", and learned to identify them in new ways without thinking much of it. But apparently this isn't the standard experience.

Despite the fact that all nanas now have 4th jhana-like characteristics, the progress of insight continues as before. The amount of insight I had immediately after synchronization seems very limited to me now in retrospect. (Currently I'd put myself down as lost in 3rd path somewhere, using the MCTB definition of it---and I definitely attained this path long *after* synchronization) In fact, I wouldn't say that synchronization bestowed me with any insight at all, at least not any insight of the direct, non-reflective kind that paths bestow, unless you count the phenomenon of "I" becoming more diffuse as related to insight. Its notable effects for me have been primarily related to equanimity and psychological wellbeing. (This might be different if I had attained it pre-SE, assuming that's possible.)

Here is how I identify the nanas right now:

Mind and body: stronger sense of being "I", sudden grasp of which phenomena are unclear and need to be analyzed for insight.

Cause and effect: indistinct.

Three characteristics: indistinct, maybe boredom.

A&P: vibrations vary synchronously as one inhales or exhales; later (not in review), all the typical A&P craziness.

Dissolution: easier to see the passing of phenomena, vibration rate of visual field upon cursory observation is faster than usual (5-6hz?) through all the dukkha nanas.

Fear: a bit of stomach tension.

Misery: indistinct, sometimes vague tension.

Disgust: indistinct, sometimes vague tension.

Desire for deliverance: indistinct; less tension if it were previously present.

Re-observation: sometimes indistinct, sometimes irregular sensations of buzzing in the body; rarely the typical re-observation unpleasantness.

Equanimity: boredom at first; then attentional width expands a tiny bit; then formless stuff and strong equanimity; then fruition.

The things to note about all of these is, first, that about half of the nanas have become indistinct for me, including most of the Dark Night (but none of the positive nanas), and second, the only way I know that I'm clearly in Equanimity is by keeping track of which nanas came immediately before, or by waiting until I get deeper into it and formless stuff begins to arise. This is because all the mentioned characteristics of all the nanas are superimposed on a state that's like the 4th jhana, but without the formless phenomena, and without the extreme equanimity that the 4th jhana can present with when approached with strong concentration.

Later paths made no difference to synchronization / dissynchronization, but only to direct insight and whatever psychological consequences follow from having insight.

I don't know if this corresponds in any way with where you are currently, but if so, I hope it helps!
Dan K, modified 13 Years ago at 6/10/10 1:28 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/10/10 1:28 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

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Anon Anon:

Can you describe what you mean when the mind "sweeps"? Is it a kinaesthetic phenomenon? I can't say that I know what this corresponds to in my own descriptive language...


The mind tends to rotate towards pleasant sensations, as if it is diving in from one side. It might appear as the mind lunging toward, engulfing or consuming sensations.

Anon Anon:

Dan K:
The "problem" isn't that I can't find vibrations, it's that I'm stuck in 4th vipassana jhana so there's nowhere to go with the vibrations, nor does there seem to be any gain from looking at them. There is still plenty of stuff for me to work with, but I would classify them more as waves than vibrations. For example, the process of objectification is seen to be wavelike and makes a good object of inquiry.


OK, got it. Can you explain what you mean by there not being any gain by looking at them? Can you get a fruition (for example) by looking at them?


I'm not sure what is and isn't a fruition. Is every flicker a fruition? Are the bigger ones every once in a while fruitions? Is it a fruition when I sense a blink followed by a burst of energy? I didn't learn about the whole fruition thing until quite recently. Otherwise, by looking at sensations I can get into various modes of concentration, depending on which phase of the flickering I focus on, so that is useful.

Anon Anon:

I don't know if this corresponds in any way with where you are currently, but if so, I hope it helps!


I have very poor awareness of the nanas. I never practiced noting and I practiced very limited formal vipassana so my cycles are not categorized well. I don't notice the stages of the review cycles either, except for the fruitions. It doesn't matter where I am on the Theravada path in any case. I had a burning desire to be enlightened, but that is gone now.

Back to the synchronization: since the event, are you able to notice any "energy patterns"? For example, rotating rings, halos, "wings" (see: 7th chakra), energy coming out of your head and circling around, giant eyes, glowing orbs, or any other types of vivid imagery or sensual impressions?
Anon Anon, modified 13 Years ago at 6/18/10 11:04 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/18/10 11:03 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

Posts: 40 Join Date: 5/26/10 Recent Posts
Sorry that it took a while to write this; I've been trying to work out some things and not been inclined to say much on that account.

Dan K:
Anon Anon:

Can you describe what you mean when the mind "sweeps"? Is it a kinaesthetic phenomenon? I can't say that I know what this corresponds to in my own descriptive language...


The mind tends to rotate towards pleasant sensations, as if it is diving in from one side. It might appear as the mind lunging toward, engulfing or consuming sensations.


OK, this makes sense to me. I have some things to say about it, but for a few reasons I'd like to hold off on that for a bit...

Dan K:

I'm not sure what is and isn't a fruition. Is every flicker a fruition? Are the bigger ones every once in a while fruitions? Is it a fruition when I sense a blink followed by a burst of energy? I didn't learn about the whole fruition thing until quite recently. Otherwise, by looking at sensations I can get into various modes of concentration, depending on which phase of the flickering I focus on, so that is useful.


The experience (?) I'm trying to point at is a complex of entrance-cessation of phenomena-exit. The entrance presents in various ways which I find hard to describe and in my opinion these ways are best learned by making one's own catalogue of them.

When the visual field flickers sychronously, then if I understand you correctly, the off-moments aren't fruitions, because there is still phenomena of some kind apart from the temporarily-faded visual field.

What happens if you just aimlessly look at sensations for, say, 30 minutes?

Dan K:

Anon Anon:

I don't know if this corresponds in any way with where you are currently, but if so, I hope it helps!


I have very poor awareness of the nanas. I never practiced noting and I practiced very limited formal vipassana so my cycles are not categorized well. I don't notice the stages of the review cycles either, except for the fruitions. It doesn't matter where I am on the Theravada path in any case. I had a burning desire to be enlightened, but that is gone now.

Back to the synchronization: since the event, are you able to notice any "energy patterns"? For example, rotating rings, halos, "wings" (see: 7th chakra), energy coming out of your head and circling around, giant eyes, glowing orbs, or any other types of vivid imagery or sensual impressions?


My mind has always been inclined to visualize all kinds of abstract, striking imagery, but I didn't notice any change afterwards.

I have always had a hard time understanding what people meant when they talked about "energy" (as sensual impressions?). Something about the way I conceptualize my experience seems to prevent "energy" from being a label I would apply to anything but the most outrageous A&P stuff. But my best guess is that, again, I didn't notice any change in this regard.
Dan K, modified 13 Years ago at 6/19/10 5:05 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/19/10 5:05 PM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

Posts: 33 Join Date: 5/15/10 Recent Posts
Anon Anon:
Sorry that it took a while to write this; I've been trying to work out some things and not been inclined to say much on that account.


No problem.

Anon Anon:

What happens if you just aimlessly look at sensations for, say, 30 minutes?


When my mind starts to wander aimlessly, I tend to drift into certain types of thoughts that suddenly blink out. Usually I'm not able to remember what the content of the thought was, but they tend to be complex, content-rich thoughts.

Anon Anon:
.
I have always had a hard time understanding what people meant when they talked about "energy" (as sensual impressions?). Something about the way I conceptualize my experience seems to prevent "energy" from being a label I would apply to anything but the most outrageous A&P stuff. But my best guess is that, again, I didn't notice any change in this regard.


By "energy" I meant flows of sensation of any kind that seem to be out in the world or in the body, but that don't seem to be part of the material world. For example, I can visualize a beam of light shooting out of my hand.
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 6/26/10 1:41 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/26/10 1:41 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Anon Anon:
tarin greco:
here's a question for you: when things are vibrating in perfect synchrony, what/where is it that you are perceiving things vibrating in relation to?


On one hand, the answer is "in relation to themselves at a prior point in time". It's the same as if one asked "when you see a person moving, what do you perceive them moving in relation to?" One may see them moving in relation to their environment over time (comparable to dissynchrony), and in the case that one sees them moving against a completely blank background (comparable to synchrony), one uses the coordinates of the field (left / right / up / down / forward / back) to compare their states over time and describe their motion.

On the other hand, there is also the sense that it is attention that's moving, not necessarily the object. When one prepares for jhana, at the beginning there is the sense that attention keeps "sliding off" the object and that one needs applied and sustained thought to continually re-attach it to the object. (More accurately, perhaps "applied and sustained thought" just is the sense of sliding off / reapplication.) Once applied and sustained thought end, there is the impression that the object is not observed to vibrate in the same way as before---one seems more in sync with things (cross-modal synchrony). Which suggests that the phenomenon of "I" is wrapped up with cognition / attention in some way.

Not sure what you had in mind with this question.


what i had in mind with this question was to introduce the notion that what you are calling synchrony is merely another, more refined, version of what you have rejected - and quite rightly - as a dissatisfying dissynchrony... as even when things are vibrating in perfect synchrony, there is still a something (a what or a where) which they are vibrating in or against.

on one hand, that things do move in time (rather than time being what moves) does cause perceptions of movement (in the same manner that one would perceive a person moving). yet, this itself is not either the sense of synchrony or dissynchrony we have been discussing - this is merely actual movement (the perception of which, on its own, i find to have a crystal-clear stillness to it).

and on the other hand, the notion that attention is moving is correct, and demonstrated clearly in the fact that what one experiences (what occurs in the field of one's experience) is constantly changing. even if one were to look at an unmoving desk, or computer keyboard, there is always subtle change occurring.. the light does not look the same from one moment to another - eye saccades ensure this.. no vibrating experience, whether synchronised or dissynchronised, is required. hence, the vibration which is attributed to movements of attention are not actually caused by them - what movements of attention cause is, rather, the perception of a world which is entirely new, refreshing, and happening right now.

so, the sense that attention keeps 'sliding off' the object (and how it vibrates in particular ways depending on how, or how much, it 'slides') is neither due to things moving (in relation to themselves at a prior point) in time, nor to the movement of attention. rather, it is the swirl of passions that causes this entire phenomenon.. it is the feeling of being, at its very core, which manifests as a 'perfect synchrony'... and which is what sometimes goes 'out of synch' (however much or little).

tarin
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 7/1/10 1:58 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 7/1/10 1:58 AM

RE: dual-track awakening: a theory

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Anon Anon:
tarin greco:
which last possibility leads me to ask: is it so that, in the absence of the feeling of being (absence of the sense of i completely), there is likewise the absence of any affective experience (the experience of moods/passions/feelings) ... and is it obvious, upon reflection, why this is the case? (that is, is it obvious that the feeling of being is part and parcel of the movement of feelings?)


It might depend on exactly what you mean by "affective experience". Without the feeling of subjectivity, phenomena continue to have pleasant / unplesant / neutral vedana...but without "I" entangled around them, the experience is quite different. For example, It is as if, when listening to enjoyable music, the music itself is enjoyable or interesting, ie those are properties of the music rather than properties of one's reaction to the music, how one likes it, how one feels about it, etc. (This is fundamentally different from seeing that when one enjoys something, the sense of "I" enjoying it is illusory and that the entire experience is really nondual, not-self.)


yes, this is entirely different from merely seeing that the sense of 'i' enjoying something is illusory and that the entire experience is really nondual, not-self.

Anon Anon:

Without "I", there seems to be a kind of all-pervading equanimity that isn't a mood (equanimity without the feeling of equanimity). It's very pure, quiet, innocent, and for lack of a better word, "good". I don't know what it's compatible with or not compatible with; it needs more real-world testing. (I'll get back to you about it.)


have you done any more real-world testing of this 'equanimity without the feeling of equanimity'?

Anon Anon:

Reflection doesn't make things much clearer to me, because there's something radically different about experience without "I" that makes that kind of experience hard to review, reflect on, or understand (for me) once "I" returns. It's as if I have to make mental notes at the time, and review the notes later. Perhaps this is why I said in my original post that I don't have much interest in re-attaining that state. When attaining it, it seems like it's important. Once it's gone, it seems much less so.


when in that state, why does it seem important? what does it look like from that perspective.. and what do other states seem like, in comparison?

Anon Anon:

The best reflection I can do at the moment is with regard to an issue that Bruno seems to have concerning how someone can choose to do things, be motivated to act, etc. without phenomenal emotions or desires. Sidestepping the issue of whether "rigpa = PCE", playing around with it has made clear to me that a lot of our behavior doesn't occur for the reasons we think it does. We don't act *because* we have the phenomenon of desire with something as its object. The phenomenon of desire ("I" desiring something) isn't necessarily part of the causal chain. Rather, we just act, and depending on what state of mind we're in, perhaps the phenomenon of desiring something precedes our act, and perhaps it doesn't. In some ways, the phenomenon is more like an epiphenomenon; a little illustrative flourish, non-causal with respect to many kinds of behavior, dispensable. This becomes clear after the observation that behavior can proceed pretty much as before, with or without it.


and yet, feeling fearful, or aggressive, can make people do thing they would most certainly not do otherwise.. can you conceive of an unfearful/unaggressive mob lynching, for example?

it is incorrect to simply label desire an epiphenomenon.. when desire causes action, there are (often tragic) consequences in the actual world.

Anon Anon:

tarin greco:
comparatively, what does trading the i-phenomenon (whether hard or soft) for what you are calling 'rigpa' lead to?


Again, I'll address this later when I can be clear about it.


are you clear about it yet?

tarin

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