Equanimity? [Travis Gene McKinstry] [MIGRATE] - Discussion
Equanimity? [Travis Gene McKinstry]
Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-01 23:26:12 - Equanimity?
I understand that self-diagnosis is best, I would just like the community's opinion.
I get a long struggle of annoying sensations both in the body and the mind but mainly in the body. (I've seen people talk of the Dark Night as negative bodily sensations, can they be restricted to just the mind?) After a generally annoying struggle with the mind, there came a large relaxation event. I didn't feel COMPLETELY calm, but MUCH calmer than what was just happening. Many times I start to feel like the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'. Almost as if 'I' am closer to the sensations.
Sound like equanimity?
THANK YOU!!!
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-02 02:55:01 - RE: Equanimity?
The dark night is withdrawal symptoms from rumination addiction. When you achieve equanimity for the first time it should be a really peaceful quiet mind. You should start noticing how hindrances seem to arise and pass away quicker. It's still far from being able to change habits (which you'll work on for the rest of your life) but it feels like the biggest relief you've had in your life up to this point.
First tastes of equanimity should be quite narrow and concentrative until you learn to spread the equanimity to as many experiences as possible. Some people say it reminds them of childhood and it did for me as well. I think when you're young you don't have as many conditionings yet and equanimity can give you a flavour of that. Another metaphor I like to use is tension in the skull and body start melting like ice cubes.
When you have equanimity you're aren't clinging as much but it's a temporary state so you have to cultivate it again and again and hopefully use it in daily life. When the equanimity is more habitual then you'll probably be at a point where you want to stop meditating as regularly. It's probably okay to do this but as many other posters here can attest you can continue to grow and find subtle aversions in your meditation practice and let go of them as well. I don't think people should stop until they feel more freedom in their habits. Just listening to an audio book The Art of Happiness at work with the Dalai Lama he mentions Dzogchen practioners that try and stay thoughtless all the time which is just another clinging. Enjoy the equanimity if it's there but don't attach to clear thoughtless periods. It's okay to enjoy them once and a while but if there's an aversion to thoughts then that's a signal pointing to more clinging.
To stablize your equanimity further I would try to let awareness go where it wants and watch it arise and pass away. When you notice the mind wandered you're already back so there's no need to add aversion to a wandering mind. You can train it and nudge the mind towards an object of your choosing but getting exasperated when the mind wanders is just a lack of patience. Letting the mind wander a long time and welcoming the natural return to your senses in the moment will reduce more stress and give you a taste of equanimity that's less about jhanas and more effortless. Push with more effort and relax effort and with trial and error you'll find a happy medium.
Keep practicing and make it more subtle. Read a lot of Daniel's practice advice on treating thoughts as sensations and noticing the cause and effect of everything including your intention to pay attention. You can feel it when you're trying to meditate. If all these bits and pieces of thinking are just thinking (including strategizing/analyizing/rehearsing) then where's the self? How can consciousness arise unless there's objects to be conscious of? That means consciousness is dependent on experience. It's not a separate viewer.
Hopefully that helps!
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Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-05 00:26:39 - RE: Equanimity?
Richard Zen,
Your replies are always full of useful insight it seems. I appreciate your reply.
I do remember you telling me this before, and I have re-read the part about EQ in MCTB, which has also given a lot of insight.
But instead of packing more knowledge of what EQ is like for Daniel, or you, I'd just like some opinions from the members here in this community if whether or not the experience detailed above sounds like a form of EQ.
Thanks again Richard
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-05 03:24:53 - RE: Equanimity?
Travis. This isn't enough detail. What did you do in your practice to achieve this "relaxation event"? That could easily be a concentration state you solidifed into. If you had a big relaxation event so that physical pain and unpleasant thinking was much less of a problem and this was during insight practice (noting, bare awareness) then that would be more likely equanimity. How is some random poster on the net going to give you the affirmation of progress without more detail about you?
I used to ask lots of questions about shifts and changes but ultimately it was just more attachment. Signs of progress and striving are to be investigated for clinging to move forward.
I think Daniel says it in a practical way.
Equanimity needs to become a habit so that the benefits of mindfulness are habitual. Equanimity can be viewed just simply by experiencing something and staying mindful in the body and watch the sensations pass away on their own. Practice creating a desire in you and watch all the sensations and do nothing but wait until they naturally pass away. Wait until the relief happens on it's own. When you're not ruminating or repressing sensations then those are two stressful activities you are letting go of.
This is why dependent arising is important. The purpose of stream entry is to show you that mind-matter needs consciousness and consciousness needs mind-matter. Everything is interrelated and conditioned. Disenchantment comes from seeing the habitual patterns but using mindfulness to not react with action but to just observe things passing away.
At some point you need to use this in your life and become functional so you can achieve goals. Even monks probably have lots of goals.
The energy factor of awakening is so important. You need to see all experiences including experiences on this website as part of the 3 characteristics. You then need to use the energy factor in particular (from the 7 factors of awakening) so you can sustain effort to develop concentration while noting. Abandon unskillful thinking, prevent it from arising, cultivate skillful thinking/behaviours, and then sustain it. If the habits don't change it doesn't matter that you feel better about them and have equanimity. Equanimity is overrated. It's a good staging point but unless you are using it to change habits to something better you will be disappointed with it.
If someone here tells you "Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanmity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner!" What is that? Investigate it like everything else.
Metta,
Richard
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Neem Nyima - 2014-05-05 08:19:38 - RE: Equanimity?
G'day Tavis.
Ingram has a [url=]Sub-Nana chart, in it he breaks equanimity down into four stages. Low Equ, Early mastery, Late mastery and High Equ.
Its my feeling that, its a bit like a golden mean spiral, A&P is very physical, Re-Observation is very Mental and Physical in its disturbance. But in the the 3rd segment of Equanimity we have late mastery, which has been described as a mini-dark night, by Daniel, I have found this stage to be very mental in its disturbance, it is advised by my teacher to look at Vedana and its relationship to the subtle spacious periods. In this period the spacious subtle sensations alternate between periods of fast flowing sensations that increasingly become subtler and subtler. This fast flowing sensations start by increase in intensity and then become slowly subtler. This alternates with periods of spacious subtle body sensations, which can extend in intervals with the fast flowing sensations. This is all depending of whether you are moving up or down the map, and also depending on where you centre of gravity is.
In my last 30 day retreat my centre of gravity was really around mastery, before and after these fast flow vibrations. I was just beginning to make the transition into sustaining long periods of equanimity, which is in affect what high equanimity is. But i couldn't quite quiet down the mind enough. This was a case of needing to increase my khanika samadhi or/and my passadhi, to really get into it. And needing to bring myself back to the bare sensations and the present moment. Because subtle thoughts were lingering and intruding in the background, and when left unchecked or allowed to much agitation the can become foreground thought pushing mindfulness into the background. It is understandable why there is a requirement to go into long and continual periods of slow movement at this period. Unfortunately I was only doing it for a few day at a time and my passadhi wasn't strong enough this last retreat. Anyway, keep in mind that mapping at this point isn't as good as really getting into it like Richard says. That's kind of what I realised in my last two 30 day retreats, the above points that is.
Neem.
P.S. I recon, I kind of answered you question, but what Richard is saying is actually more relevant. Pay attention to what he is saying! I should actually read it more carefully, cause this is the advice that is perfectly pertinent to where I am in my practice at the moment! You gotta be it, you can't actually do it here, which is the real difficulty.
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Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-05 17:16:45 - RE: Equanimity?
Richard,
I understand what you're saying. I've read that post by Daniel multiple times, it speaks a lot of truth to me. It helps me keep going in my practice!
I understand that all things in the mind need to be investigated. I realized that not too long ago. Thanks for reminding me.
As for the above question, which I think your entire post was alluding to, it helps to know that I'm doing it correctly. It's not about 'hey, I'm the shit. I got EQ, damn I'm good!'. It's about feedback; knowing that the practice is actually doing something. Because if it isn't, I have to change my strategy. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong. Perhaps I'm investigating phenomenon but not in the 'right' way. These all creep into my head (note 'doubt') so I look to this community to perhaps provide some feedback. After meditating for hours each day and noting as much as I feel I can, it's tough to keep going in the same direction if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I'm sure you understand.
Anyways, I appreciate your feedback. Your post has given me a lot to think about already. Thanks again for replying
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Dream Walker - 2014-05-05 19:01:52 - RE: Equanimity?
From my understanding, Yes, the DN can be restricted to just the mind. Some people only get the DN effects during practice on cushion and they can be mild. This is not how I experience it though...it bleeds out off the cushion to my life and makes a mess that I have to mop up later. Be thankful.
Yes, sounds like it could be EQ. I just had a meditation where I watched the transition to EQ and the description of "the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'" is accurate. I notice the blackness behind my eyes much more and get some colors and movement of the colors..this was my usual signpost for recognizing EQ. I noticed that thoughts and sensations were much more up close and apparent. Annoyingly so. I have to then kinda start over at this level and work from scratch to get the content to calm down.
The instant drop into calmness/relaxed/stresslessness is also very noticeable.
{Cheer leading mode ON}
"Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanimity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner! Congratulations!"
{Cheer leading mode OFF}
Now back to work....reread - Knowledge_of_Equanimity_Stage_11 and start the progress from low to mid to high EQ...Oh and enjoy the heck out of EQ....It's the carrot of each practice until you get to SE. Do not eat the carrot and stop though...this is a big problem with this area. Practice getting to EQ each sit and work there for the amount of time needed to move your practice forward.
Good Luck,
~D
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x x - 2014-05-05 19:48:30 - RE: Equanimity?
Here's some more reading material:
Ron Crouch on Equanimity
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Neem Nyima - 2014-05-05 23:33:13 - RE: Equanimity?
Hey Travis, its just a case of a really brief report. Diagnosis for most situations is really a negotiation with people more experienced, which by the way I may only be a bit, if what you say is true, as i am in the same stage and have been for a year or four depending on how you look at it. The only sign that was clear in your reporting, was the thing about the mind difficulties. This could easily occur with someone trying to master Jhana in the hard school style. Your practice should go through stages and changes and have a range of phenomena, its unlikely you would be able to stay in High Equanimity all the time and even those that do will have some mornings where the have to move back up the Insight Stages and spend some period negotiating late mastery. And maybe even re-observation to on some occasions though it becomes easier and easier, to pass through this stage.
So what i heard from you is that your having problems with the mind/ subtle mind and your calm, but its not that calm.
Also Equ, for some, such as my self can be a long stage to develop through. I have clearly developed into it and through it but not finished it, Yet. And that has also been under guidance within retreats. Its likely that the people who are doing this at home while living life and meditating 4 to 6 hrs are an exceptional exception. A fast practitioner, in my book is someone who does a 90 day retreat and gets it the first time.
I find it hard to give a really detailed report, like some do, but a bit more is needed. And you can't recognise what you haven't seen or are only seeing for the first time.
Shit i'm crapping on, sorry, don't want to nag, you. Keep at it, Good luck sincerely Neem.
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Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-05 23:52:29 - RE: Equanimity?
oh DÖ you are hilariousÖ haha thanks for all your guidance friend. But yes, 'bitting into the carrot' can disrupt practiceÖ I've done this a few times. As always, you are a big help.
XX, Thanks. I read through this; great resource. Thanks again for providing this gem.
Neem Nyima,
Thanks for the perspective. But yes I agree, those who develop EQ quickly are meditating a lot each day. That's why every minute is so important
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-06 00:01:26 - RE: Equanimity?
This is exactly what is targeted. Need for progress. I remember the Dalai Lama said that you should check in after 25 years.
He's joking but you want ongoing knowledge of experience including any checking in or progress related checking in because enlightenment is more about surrendering this "checking in" and being with what is. You ideally want to act on what you should and accept what you can't control. There should be a "getting on with life" vibe where this stuff is involved with your goals.
Your description of equanimity could be accurate but you're just listening to people who "think" they might have the same experience and some have posted the same thing.
The ego/amygdala wants to control meditation. For an experiment try and just go on with your daily activities but follow the breath. At the same time allow the mind to wander and notice how little control you have over the animal part of the brain. It surveys the environment. It just wants perceptions and then to react to the perceptions. Develop concentration with this understanding so you accept that the id of your mind will want to go where it wants, but you can nudge it towards better goals without aversion. It's almost like the tall guy that can't see who holds up a short-guy you can see but has no braun. They work together. The perception puppy wants to take all likeable perceptions as 100% likeable and chase it and vice versa.
Be loving and accepting of the puppy in your mind and nudge it towards the goals you have so you don't have aversion to goals, meditation or any attachments to stream-entry etc.
You should also notice any frustration or irritation with practice. That's the perception wanting to react to not liking your progress or not liking the present moment in some way. Sit back and relax and use mindfulness to notice how perceptions are affecting you. For example, I sometimes get aversion when I'm interrupted in my work and have to do something else. I notice a "self" feeling separate from the "object". Yet this is all happening in my brain. There is no separation. The consciousness is interdependent with objects and cannot be conscious without it. So I notice the irritation and start letting go of the tension until I don't feel separate at all. Then I'm completely normal with no tension. Perception is measuring stuff and reacting ALL THE TIME. Notice when you're sitting and you feel just fine. This is temporary because the perception hasn't gotten hooked on some object or goal. Try and maintain this "okay-ness" while doing tasks and following goals. Notice when the perception/consciousness/body starts tensing when something is considered "not good", or "really good". Relax your body and mind.
In a sense this is like noting but you are targeting the area that causes the problem in the first place and preventing full blown rumination. If you start feeling an uneasiness or violation with this practice then it's probably working.
Equanimity is an impermanent mind state so that's why it can disappoint. Insight is understanding how the stress happens and that's why dependent arising is important. Concentration can now be looked at appropriately like it's something to balance you out with the 7 factors of awakening as opposed to the goal itself.
The best sign of progress is that you're normal and not in an altered state but at the same time you are becoming a master of perception. Arhats are masters of perception. They are so aware of the yearning/wanting/day-dreaming part of the mind and train to let go so that they don't fall in the same traps over and over again.
Make sense?
I want to be a like a normal person but with less stress. I want to allow perception to do healthy things but when it's unhealthy I want to decondition those habits by relinquishing them, preventing them from arising, cultivating healthy thinking/behaviours, and sustaining them. It should feel healthy doing this but a little violating and unpleasant. Purifying yourself is not easy. If it was easy everybody would do it. I've had business seminars that go from company to company and they mentioned this stuff (along with Christian stuff) to our company. I predicted correctly that the audience only wants this information if it can help them dominate more. LOL! I knew that it was "in one ear and out another". In our culture reading and basic understanding is supposed to be enough but in reality we need more experience.
Another example is I'm training another lady in how to pass a hard exam that I passed and she didn't follow ONE prescription I gave. The puppy wants to watch TV, go to the refrigerator, surf the net as opposed to study. This is what we are dealing with and equanimity, as nice as it is, is not the enough.
I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I have ENORMOUS equanimity right now and it is automatic and feels great but unless I can chip away at those habits it's a fools gold.
Keep practicing and refining your knowledge.
Good luck!
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Pawe? K - 2014-05-06 09:04:01 - RE: Equanimity?
in_front-ness of everything is surely sign of EQ quality of experience and it is how children experience world for sure.
other thing that is very EQesque is that formations tend to go through each other. If you have habit to visualize everything then it will literally look like objects seem to be able to pass through themselves. In DN there is repulsion between those objects that are aggregates of sensations and even individual sensations. Like touch that is composite of thousands of little touch sensations (it will present itself that way in higher EQ) will at DN felt like those touch sensations repel each other creating dukkha experience. Touch itself is neutral but this aversion is painful. In EQ those sensations don't seem to interact and are merely there and in a way it can feel like sensations are numbed at times (compared to A&P and DN) but because mind see everything in such clarity it shows that without those addons that we normally inject it is how we feel our own body and mind.
at A&P on the other hand sensations do interact but mind is very selective. It can switch very fast between sensations but don't have ability to see everything at once which ability is gained at higher stages of DN and crystallize at EQ. So at A&P mind feel like grabbing sensations fully but is also jumping so really it is grabbing just one (non)quality of these sensations. Mind is stupid and mistake this quality for sensations themselves and try to grab sensations itself to find its impossible and finds 3C hard way. Its EQ in which mind have to again turn to what was really source of its amazement in A&P, though even when it is found its hard not to fall to the same trap again... and again...
also at EQ, especially during meditation there might be sensation of living sky with living stars and especially during a day mind as water surface where thoughts, especially unskillful will create waves on its surface. When zooming in using abilities gained in higher EQ it always looks the same, just bunch (bazillions) of sensations, often related to body
Anyway, don't take sensations of I am great meditator as source of your happiness as it could throw you back to depths of DN if you fall for it. Instead try to see what it would be like without this sensation. I am not suggesting I am not great meditator but no such concept/sensation existing altogether. How would it feel then? If you like you can take this as your koan to strengthen your Zen side of practice =)
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-06 14:13:56 - RE: Equanimity?
Here's a good talk that will keep you questioning further and interested beyond equanimity and also how to expand your equanimity:
On Nature of Mind
Hang out in equanimity and expand it to all areas that consciousness is aware of as a staging point and try to go further. You can note "empty" or "not self" towards consciousness.
Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-01 23:26:12 - Equanimity?
I understand that self-diagnosis is best, I would just like the community's opinion.
I get a long struggle of annoying sensations both in the body and the mind but mainly in the body. (I've seen people talk of the Dark Night as negative bodily sensations, can they be restricted to just the mind?) After a generally annoying struggle with the mind, there came a large relaxation event. I didn't feel COMPLETELY calm, but MUCH calmer than what was just happening. Many times I start to feel like the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'. Almost as if 'I' am closer to the sensations.
Sound like equanimity?
THANK YOU!!!
-------------------
Richard Zen - 2014-05-02 02:55:01 - RE: Equanimity?
The dark night is withdrawal symptoms from rumination addiction. When you achieve equanimity for the first time it should be a really peaceful quiet mind. You should start noticing how hindrances seem to arise and pass away quicker. It's still far from being able to change habits (which you'll work on for the rest of your life) but it feels like the biggest relief you've had in your life up to this point.
First tastes of equanimity should be quite narrow and concentrative until you learn to spread the equanimity to as many experiences as possible. Some people say it reminds them of childhood and it did for me as well. I think when you're young you don't have as many conditionings yet and equanimity can give you a flavour of that. Another metaphor I like to use is tension in the skull and body start melting like ice cubes.
When you have equanimity you're aren't clinging as much but it's a temporary state so you have to cultivate it again and again and hopefully use it in daily life. When the equanimity is more habitual then you'll probably be at a point where you want to stop meditating as regularly. It's probably okay to do this but as many other posters here can attest you can continue to grow and find subtle aversions in your meditation practice and let go of them as well. I don't think people should stop until they feel more freedom in their habits. Just listening to an audio book The Art of Happiness at work with the Dalai Lama he mentions Dzogchen practioners that try and stay thoughtless all the time which is just another clinging. Enjoy the equanimity if it's there but don't attach to clear thoughtless periods. It's okay to enjoy them once and a while but if there's an aversion to thoughts then that's a signal pointing to more clinging.
To stablize your equanimity further I would try to let awareness go where it wants and watch it arise and pass away. When you notice the mind wandered you're already back so there's no need to add aversion to a wandering mind. You can train it and nudge the mind towards an object of your choosing but getting exasperated when the mind wanders is just a lack of patience. Letting the mind wander a long time and welcoming the natural return to your senses in the moment will reduce more stress and give you a taste of equanimity that's less about jhanas and more effortless. Push with more effort and relax effort and with trial and error you'll find a happy medium.
Keep practicing and make it more subtle. Read a lot of Daniel's practice advice on treating thoughts as sensations and noticing the cause and effect of everything including your intention to pay attention. You can feel it when you're trying to meditate. If all these bits and pieces of thinking are just thinking (including strategizing/analyizing/rehearsing) then where's the self? How can consciousness arise unless there's objects to be conscious of? That means consciousness is dependent on experience. It's not a separate viewer.
Hopefully that helps!
-------------------
Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-05 00:26:39 - RE: Equanimity?
Richard Zen:
The dark night is withdrawal symptoms from rumination addiction. When you achieve equanimity for the first time it should be a really peaceful quiet mind. You should start noticing how hindrances seem to arise and pass away quicker. It's still far from being able to change habits (which you'll work on for the rest of your life) but it feels like the biggest relief you've had in your life up to this point.
First tastes of equanimity should be quite narrow and concentrative until you learn to spread the equanimity to as many experiences as possible. Some people say it reminds them of childhood and it did for me as well. I think when you're young you don't have as many conditionings yet and equanimity can give you a flavour of that. Another metaphor I like to use is tension in the skull and body start melting like ice cubes.
When you have equanimity you're aren't clinging as much but it's a temporary state so you have to cultivate it again and again and hopefully use it in daily life. When the equanimity is more habitual then you'll probably be at a point where you want to stop meditating as regularly. It's probably okay to do this but as many other posters here can attest you can continue to grow and find subtle aversions in your meditation practice and let go of them as well. I don't think people should stop until they feel more freedom in their habits. Just listening to an audio book The Art of Happiness at work with the Dalai Lama he mentions Dzogchen practioners that try and stay thoughtless all the time which is just another clinging. Enjoy the equanimity if it's there but don't attach to clear thoughtless periods. It's okay to enjoy them once and a while but if there's an aversion to thoughts then that's a signal pointing to more clinging.
To stablize your equanimity further I would try to let awareness go where it wants and watch it arise and pass away. When you notice the mind wandered you're already back so there's no need to add aversion to a wandering mind. You can train it and nudge the mind towards an object of your choosing but getting exasperated when the mind wanders is just a lack of patience. Letting the mind wander a long time and welcoming the natural return to your senses in the moment will reduce more stress and give you a taste of equanimity that's less about jhanas and more effortless. Push with more effort and relax effort and with trial and error you'll find a happy medium.
Keep practicing and make it more subtle. Read a lot of Daniel's practice advice on treating thoughts as sensations and noticing the cause and effect of everything including your intention to pay attention. You can feel it when you're trying to meditate. If all these bits and pieces of thinking are just thinking (including strategizing/analyizing/rehearsing) then where's the self? How can consciousness arise unless there's objects to be conscious of? That means consciousness is dependent on experience. It's not a separate viewer.
Hopefully that helps!
First tastes of equanimity should be quite narrow and concentrative until you learn to spread the equanimity to as many experiences as possible. Some people say it reminds them of childhood and it did for me as well. I think when you're young you don't have as many conditionings yet and equanimity can give you a flavour of that. Another metaphor I like to use is tension in the skull and body start melting like ice cubes.
When you have equanimity you're aren't clinging as much but it's a temporary state so you have to cultivate it again and again and hopefully use it in daily life. When the equanimity is more habitual then you'll probably be at a point where you want to stop meditating as regularly. It's probably okay to do this but as many other posters here can attest you can continue to grow and find subtle aversions in your meditation practice and let go of them as well. I don't think people should stop until they feel more freedom in their habits. Just listening to an audio book The Art of Happiness at work with the Dalai Lama he mentions Dzogchen practioners that try and stay thoughtless all the time which is just another clinging. Enjoy the equanimity if it's there but don't attach to clear thoughtless periods. It's okay to enjoy them once and a while but if there's an aversion to thoughts then that's a signal pointing to more clinging.
To stablize your equanimity further I would try to let awareness go where it wants and watch it arise and pass away. When you notice the mind wandered you're already back so there's no need to add aversion to a wandering mind. You can train it and nudge the mind towards an object of your choosing but getting exasperated when the mind wanders is just a lack of patience. Letting the mind wander a long time and welcoming the natural return to your senses in the moment will reduce more stress and give you a taste of equanimity that's less about jhanas and more effortless. Push with more effort and relax effort and with trial and error you'll find a happy medium.
Keep practicing and make it more subtle. Read a lot of Daniel's practice advice on treating thoughts as sensations and noticing the cause and effect of everything including your intention to pay attention. You can feel it when you're trying to meditate. If all these bits and pieces of thinking are just thinking (including strategizing/analyizing/rehearsing) then where's the self? How can consciousness arise unless there's objects to be conscious of? That means consciousness is dependent on experience. It's not a separate viewer.
Hopefully that helps!
Richard Zen,
Your replies are always full of useful insight it seems. I appreciate your reply.
I do remember you telling me this before, and I have re-read the part about EQ in MCTB, which has also given a lot of insight.
But instead of packing more knowledge of what EQ is like for Daniel, or you, I'd just like some opinions from the members here in this community if whether or not the experience detailed above sounds like a form of EQ.
Thanks again Richard
-------------------
Richard Zen - 2014-05-05 03:24:53 - RE: Equanimity?
Travis Gene McKinstry:
I understand that self-diagnosis is best, I would just like the community's opinion.
I get a long struggle of annoying sensations both in the body and the mind but mainly in the body. (I've seen people talk of the Dark Night as negative bodily sensations, can they be restricted to just the mind?) After a generally annoying struggle with the mind, there came a large relaxation event. I didn't feel COMPLETELY calm, but MUCH calmer than what was just happening. Many times I start to feel like the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'. Almost as if 'I' am closer to the sensations.
Sound like equanimity?
THANK YOU!!!
I get a long struggle of annoying sensations both in the body and the mind but mainly in the body. (I've seen people talk of the Dark Night as negative bodily sensations, can they be restricted to just the mind?) After a generally annoying struggle with the mind, there came a large relaxation event. I didn't feel COMPLETELY calm, but MUCH calmer than what was just happening. Many times I start to feel like the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'. Almost as if 'I' am closer to the sensations.
Sound like equanimity?
THANK YOU!!!
Travis. This isn't enough detail. What did you do in your practice to achieve this "relaxation event"? That could easily be a concentration state you solidifed into. If you had a big relaxation event so that physical pain and unpleasant thinking was much less of a problem and this was during insight practice (noting, bare awareness) then that would be more likely equanimity. How is some random poster on the net going to give you the affirmation of progress without more detail about you?
I used to ask lots of questions about shifts and changes but ultimately it was just more attachment. Signs of progress and striving are to be investigated for clinging to move forward.
I think Daniel says it in a practical way.
Daniel M. Ingram:
Attention moves around on its own: notice that totally, completely, fully, naturally, just as it is, in the whole field.
It changes all the time: notice all of that.
There is no such thing as attention, just sensations: know that all the way through.
Every quality that implies attention is just more qualities: notice them all without exception until no quality can fool you in this way, as you know it to just be textures, aspects, flavors, colors, sounds, and the like, just sensations, simply sensations.
Everything that appears to be "this side": notice all of that until you are naturally really good at it, every pattern, every familiar and unfamiliar thing.
Everything that appears to be "that side": notice all of that until you are naturally really good at it, every pattern, every familiar and unfamiliar thing.
If you don't have stream entry, you know you have to develop the above further, so do that and keep at it. You know you are missing something, figure out what. It is typically some "core process", such as figuring, wanting, striving, analyzing, expecting, fearing, wondering, and the like: those are all just more sensations: know these patterns as they arise until naturally they are seen as they are. By practice, it becomes habit. When it is habit, then it happens on its own. When it happens on its own, that is one less thing not clearly perceived, one more step closer to being clear about right here.
Simply, easily, clearly, naturally, completely, fully, honestly, devoid of ideals beyond just being with whatever shows up as it changes and fluxes and moves around and vanishes and appears. All the way down, all the way up, all the way through the center.
Do this more than you think you should.
See if that helps,
Daniel
It changes all the time: notice all of that.
There is no such thing as attention, just sensations: know that all the way through.
Every quality that implies attention is just more qualities: notice them all without exception until no quality can fool you in this way, as you know it to just be textures, aspects, flavors, colors, sounds, and the like, just sensations, simply sensations.
Everything that appears to be "this side": notice all of that until you are naturally really good at it, every pattern, every familiar and unfamiliar thing.
Everything that appears to be "that side": notice all of that until you are naturally really good at it, every pattern, every familiar and unfamiliar thing.
If you don't have stream entry, you know you have to develop the above further, so do that and keep at it. You know you are missing something, figure out what. It is typically some "core process", such as figuring, wanting, striving, analyzing, expecting, fearing, wondering, and the like: those are all just more sensations: know these patterns as they arise until naturally they are seen as they are. By practice, it becomes habit. When it is habit, then it happens on its own. When it happens on its own, that is one less thing not clearly perceived, one more step closer to being clear about right here.
Simply, easily, clearly, naturally, completely, fully, honestly, devoid of ideals beyond just being with whatever shows up as it changes and fluxes and moves around and vanishes and appears. All the way down, all the way up, all the way through the center.
Do this more than you think you should.
See if that helps,
Daniel
Equanimity needs to become a habit so that the benefits of mindfulness are habitual. Equanimity can be viewed just simply by experiencing something and staying mindful in the body and watch the sensations pass away on their own. Practice creating a desire in you and watch all the sensations and do nothing but wait until they naturally pass away. Wait until the relief happens on it's own. When you're not ruminating or repressing sensations then those are two stressful activities you are letting go of.
This is why dependent arising is important. The purpose of stream entry is to show you that mind-matter needs consciousness and consciousness needs mind-matter. Everything is interrelated and conditioned. Disenchantment comes from seeing the habitual patterns but using mindfulness to not react with action but to just observe things passing away.
At some point you need to use this in your life and become functional so you can achieve goals. Even monks probably have lots of goals.
The energy factor of awakening is so important. You need to see all experiences including experiences on this website as part of the 3 characteristics. You then need to use the energy factor in particular (from the 7 factors of awakening) so you can sustain effort to develop concentration while noting. Abandon unskillful thinking, prevent it from arising, cultivate skillful thinking/behaviours, and then sustain it. If the habits don't change it doesn't matter that you feel better about them and have equanimity. Equanimity is overrated. It's a good staging point but unless you are using it to change habits to something better you will be disappointed with it.
If someone here tells you "Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanmity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner!" What is that? Investigate it like everything else.
Metta,
Richard
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Neem Nyima - 2014-05-05 08:19:38 - RE: Equanimity?
G'day Tavis.
Ingram has a [url=]Sub-Nana chart, in it he breaks equanimity down into four stages. Low Equ, Early mastery, Late mastery and High Equ.
Its my feeling that, its a bit like a golden mean spiral, A&P is very physical, Re-Observation is very Mental and Physical in its disturbance. But in the the 3rd segment of Equanimity we have late mastery, which has been described as a mini-dark night, by Daniel, I have found this stage to be very mental in its disturbance, it is advised by my teacher to look at Vedana and its relationship to the subtle spacious periods. In this period the spacious subtle sensations alternate between periods of fast flowing sensations that increasingly become subtler and subtler. This fast flowing sensations start by increase in intensity and then become slowly subtler. This alternates with periods of spacious subtle body sensations, which can extend in intervals with the fast flowing sensations. This is all depending of whether you are moving up or down the map, and also depending on where you centre of gravity is.
In my last 30 day retreat my centre of gravity was really around mastery, before and after these fast flow vibrations. I was just beginning to make the transition into sustaining long periods of equanimity, which is in affect what high equanimity is. But i couldn't quite quiet down the mind enough. This was a case of needing to increase my khanika samadhi or/and my passadhi, to really get into it. And needing to bring myself back to the bare sensations and the present moment. Because subtle thoughts were lingering and intruding in the background, and when left unchecked or allowed to much agitation the can become foreground thought pushing mindfulness into the background. It is understandable why there is a requirement to go into long and continual periods of slow movement at this period. Unfortunately I was only doing it for a few day at a time and my passadhi wasn't strong enough this last retreat. Anyway, keep in mind that mapping at this point isn't as good as really getting into it like Richard says. That's kind of what I realised in my last two 30 day retreats, the above points that is.
Neem.
P.S. I recon, I kind of answered you question, but what Richard is saying is actually more relevant. Pay attention to what he is saying! I should actually read it more carefully, cause this is the advice that is perfectly pertinent to where I am in my practice at the moment! You gotta be it, you can't actually do it here, which is the real difficulty.
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Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-05 17:16:45 - RE: Equanimity?
Richard,
I understand what you're saying. I've read that post by Daniel multiple times, it speaks a lot of truth to me. It helps me keep going in my practice!
I understand that all things in the mind need to be investigated. I realized that not too long ago. Thanks for reminding me.
If someone here tells you "Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanmity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner!" What is that? Investigate it like everything else.
As for the above question, which I think your entire post was alluding to, it helps to know that I'm doing it correctly. It's not about 'hey, I'm the shit. I got EQ, damn I'm good!'. It's about feedback; knowing that the practice is actually doing something. Because if it isn't, I have to change my strategy. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong. Perhaps I'm investigating phenomenon but not in the 'right' way. These all creep into my head (note 'doubt') so I look to this community to perhaps provide some feedback. After meditating for hours each day and noting as much as I feel I can, it's tough to keep going in the same direction if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I'm sure you understand.
Anyways, I appreciate your feedback. Your post has given me a lot to think about already. Thanks again for replying
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Dream Walker - 2014-05-05 19:01:52 - RE: Equanimity?
Travis Gene McKinstry:
I understand that self-diagnosis is best, I would just like the community's opinion.
I get a long struggle of annoying sensations both in the body and the mind but mainly in the body. (I've seen people talk of the Dark Night as negative bodily sensations, can they be restricted to just the mind?)
I get a long struggle of annoying sensations both in the body and the mind but mainly in the body. (I've seen people talk of the Dark Night as negative bodily sensations, can they be restricted to just the mind?)
From my understanding, Yes, the DN can be restricted to just the mind. Some people only get the DN effects during practice on cushion and they can be mild. This is not how I experience it though...it bleeds out off the cushion to my life and makes a mess that I have to mop up later. Be thankful.
Travis Gene McKinstry:
After a generally annoying struggle with the mind, there came a large relaxation event. I didn't feel COMPLETELY calm, but MUCH calmer than what was just happening. Many times I start to feel like the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'. Almost as if 'I' am closer to the sensations.Sound like equanimity?
Yes, sounds like it could be EQ. I just had a meditation where I watched the transition to EQ and the description of "the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'" is accurate. I notice the blackness behind my eyes much more and get some colors and movement of the colors..this was my usual signpost for recognizing EQ. I noticed that thoughts and sensations were much more up close and apparent. Annoyingly so. I have to then kinda start over at this level and work from scratch to get the content to calm down.
The instant drop into calmness/relaxed/stresslessness is also very noticeable.
{Cheer leading mode ON}
"Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanimity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner! Congratulations!"
{Cheer leading mode OFF}
Now back to work....reread - Knowledge_of_Equanimity_Stage_11 and start the progress from low to mid to high EQ...Oh and enjoy the heck out of EQ....It's the carrot of each practice until you get to SE. Do not eat the carrot and stop though...this is a big problem with this area. Practice getting to EQ each sit and work there for the amount of time needed to move your practice forward.
Good Luck,
~D
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x x - 2014-05-05 19:48:30 - RE: Equanimity?
Here's some more reading material:
Ron Crouch on Equanimity
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Neem Nyima - 2014-05-05 23:33:13 - RE: Equanimity?
Hey Travis, its just a case of a really brief report. Diagnosis for most situations is really a negotiation with people more experienced, which by the way I may only be a bit, if what you say is true, as i am in the same stage and have been for a year or four depending on how you look at it. The only sign that was clear in your reporting, was the thing about the mind difficulties. This could easily occur with someone trying to master Jhana in the hard school style. Your practice should go through stages and changes and have a range of phenomena, its unlikely you would be able to stay in High Equanimity all the time and even those that do will have some mornings where the have to move back up the Insight Stages and spend some period negotiating late mastery. And maybe even re-observation to on some occasions though it becomes easier and easier, to pass through this stage.
So what i heard from you is that your having problems with the mind/ subtle mind and your calm, but its not that calm.
Also Equ, for some, such as my self can be a long stage to develop through. I have clearly developed into it and through it but not finished it, Yet. And that has also been under guidance within retreats. Its likely that the people who are doing this at home while living life and meditating 4 to 6 hrs are an exceptional exception. A fast practitioner, in my book is someone who does a 90 day retreat and gets it the first time.
I find it hard to give a really detailed report, like some do, but a bit more is needed. And you can't recognise what you haven't seen or are only seeing for the first time.
Shit i'm crapping on, sorry, don't want to nag, you. Keep at it, Good luck sincerely Neem.
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Travis Gene McKinstry - 2014-05-05 23:52:29 - RE: Equanimity?
Yes, sounds like it could be EQ. I just had a meditation where I watched the transition to EQ and the description of "the sensations are right in 'front' of 'me'" is accurate. I notice the blackness behind my eyes much more and get some colors and movement of the colors..this was my usual signpost for recognizing EQ. I noticed that thoughts and sensations were much more up close and apparent. Annoyingly so. I have to then kinda start over at this level and work from scratch to get the content to calm down.
The instant drop into calmness/relaxed/stresslessness is also very noticeable.
{Cheer leading mode ON}
"Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanimity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner! Congratulations!"
{Cheer leading mode OFF}
Now back to work....reread - Knowledge_of_Equanimity_Stage_11 and start the progress from low to mid to high EQ...Oh and enjoy the heck out of EQ....It's the carrot of each practice until you get to SE. Do not eat the carrot and stop though...this is a big problem with this area. Practice getting to EQ each sit and work there for the amount of time needed to move your practice forward.
Good Luck,
~D
The instant drop into calmness/relaxed/stresslessness is also very noticeable.
{Cheer leading mode ON}
"Hey Travis! You did it! You achieved equanimity! You are an awesome dharma practitioner! Congratulations!"
{Cheer leading mode OFF}
Now back to work....reread - Knowledge_of_Equanimity_Stage_11 and start the progress from low to mid to high EQ...Oh and enjoy the heck out of EQ....It's the carrot of each practice until you get to SE. Do not eat the carrot and stop though...this is a big problem with this area. Practice getting to EQ each sit and work there for the amount of time needed to move your practice forward.
Good Luck,
~D
oh DÖ you are hilariousÖ haha thanks for all your guidance friend. But yes, 'bitting into the carrot' can disrupt practiceÖ I've done this a few times. As always, you are a big help.
Here's some more reading material:
Ron Crouch on Equanimity
Ron Crouch on Equanimity
XX, Thanks. I read through this; great resource. Thanks again for providing this gem.
Hey Travis, its just a case of a really brief report. Diagnosis for most situations is really a negotiation with people more experienced, which by the way I may only be a bit, if what you say is true, as i am in the same stage and have been for a year or four depending on how you look at it. The only sign that was clear in your reporting, was the thing about the mind difficulties. This could easily occur with someone trying to master Jhana in the hard school style. Your practice should go through stages and changes and have a range of phenomena, its unlikely you would be able to stay in High Equanimity all the time and even those that do will have some mornings where the have to move back up the Insight Stages and spend some period negotiating late mastery. And maybe even re-observation to on some occasions though it becomes easier and easier, to pass through this stage.
So what i heard from you is that your having problems with the mind/ subtle mind and your calm, but its not that calm.
Also Equ, for some, such as my self can be a long stage to develop through. I have clearly developed into it and through it but not finished it, Yet. And that has also been under guidance within retreats. Its likely that the people who are doing this at home while living life and meditating 4 to 6 hrs are an exceptional exception. A fast practitioner, in my book is someone who does a 90 day retreat and gets it the first time.
I find it hard to give a really detailed report, like some do, but a bit more is needed. And you can't recognise what you haven't seen or are only seeing for the first time.
Shit i'm crapping on, sorry, don't want to nag, you. Keep at it, Good luck sincerely Neem.
So what i heard from you is that your having problems with the mind/ subtle mind and your calm, but its not that calm.
Also Equ, for some, such as my self can be a long stage to develop through. I have clearly developed into it and through it but not finished it, Yet. And that has also been under guidance within retreats. Its likely that the people who are doing this at home while living life and meditating 4 to 6 hrs are an exceptional exception. A fast practitioner, in my book is someone who does a 90 day retreat and gets it the first time.
I find it hard to give a really detailed report, like some do, but a bit more is needed. And you can't recognise what you haven't seen or are only seeing for the first time.
Shit i'm crapping on, sorry, don't want to nag, you. Keep at it, Good luck sincerely Neem.
Neem Nyima,
Thanks for the perspective. But yes I agree, those who develop EQ quickly are meditating a lot each day. That's why every minute is so important
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-06 00:01:26 - RE: Equanimity?
Travis Gene McKinstry:
As for the above question, which I think your entire post was alluding to, it helps to know that I'm doing it correctly. It's not about 'hey, I'm the shit. I got EQ, damn I'm good!'. It's about feedback; knowing that the practice is actually doing something. Because if it isn't, I have to change my strategy. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong. Perhaps I'm investigating phenomenon but not in the 'right' way. These all creep into my head (note 'doubt') so I look to this community to perhaps provide some feedback. After meditating for hours each day and noting as much as I feel I can, it's tough to keep going in the same direction if I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I'm sure you understand.
This is exactly what is targeted. Need for progress. I remember the Dalai Lama said that you should check in after 25 years.
He's joking but you want ongoing knowledge of experience including any checking in or progress related checking in because enlightenment is more about surrendering this "checking in" and being with what is. You ideally want to act on what you should and accept what you can't control. There should be a "getting on with life" vibe where this stuff is involved with your goals.Your description of equanimity could be accurate but you're just listening to people who "think" they might have the same experience and some have posted the same thing.
The ego/amygdala wants to control meditation. For an experiment try and just go on with your daily activities but follow the breath. At the same time allow the mind to wander and notice how little control you have over the animal part of the brain. It surveys the environment. It just wants perceptions and then to react to the perceptions. Develop concentration with this understanding so you accept that the id of your mind will want to go where it wants, but you can nudge it towards better goals without aversion. It's almost like the tall guy that can't see who holds up a short-guy you can see but has no braun. They work together. The perception puppy wants to take all likeable perceptions as 100% likeable and chase it and vice versa.
Be loving and accepting of the puppy in your mind and nudge it towards the goals you have so you don't have aversion to goals, meditation or any attachments to stream-entry etc.
You should also notice any frustration or irritation with practice. That's the perception wanting to react to not liking your progress or not liking the present moment in some way. Sit back and relax and use mindfulness to notice how perceptions are affecting you. For example, I sometimes get aversion when I'm interrupted in my work and have to do something else. I notice a "self" feeling separate from the "object". Yet this is all happening in my brain. There is no separation. The consciousness is interdependent with objects and cannot be conscious without it. So I notice the irritation and start letting go of the tension until I don't feel separate at all. Then I'm completely normal with no tension. Perception is measuring stuff and reacting ALL THE TIME. Notice when you're sitting and you feel just fine. This is temporary because the perception hasn't gotten hooked on some object or goal. Try and maintain this "okay-ness" while doing tasks and following goals. Notice when the perception/consciousness/body starts tensing when something is considered "not good", or "really good". Relax your body and mind.
In a sense this is like noting but you are targeting the area that causes the problem in the first place and preventing full blown rumination. If you start feeling an uneasiness or violation with this practice then it's probably working.
Equanimity is an impermanent mind state so that's why it can disappoint. Insight is understanding how the stress happens and that's why dependent arising is important. Concentration can now be looked at appropriately like it's something to balance you out with the 7 factors of awakening as opposed to the goal itself.
The best sign of progress is that you're normal and not in an altered state but at the same time you are becoming a master of perception. Arhats are masters of perception. They are so aware of the yearning/wanting/day-dreaming part of the mind and train to let go so that they don't fall in the same traps over and over again.
Make sense?
I want to be a like a normal person but with less stress. I want to allow perception to do healthy things but when it's unhealthy I want to decondition those habits by relinquishing them, preventing them from arising, cultivating healthy thinking/behaviours, and sustaining them. It should feel healthy doing this but a little violating and unpleasant. Purifying yourself is not easy. If it was easy everybody would do it. I've had business seminars that go from company to company and they mentioned this stuff (along with Christian stuff) to our company. I predicted correctly that the audience only wants this information if it can help them dominate more. LOL! I knew that it was "in one ear and out another". In our culture reading and basic understanding is supposed to be enough but in reality we need more experience.
Another example is I'm training another lady in how to pass a hard exam that I passed and she didn't follow ONE prescription I gave. The puppy wants to watch TV, go to the refrigerator, surf the net as opposed to study. This is what we are dealing with and equanimity, as nice as it is, is not the enough.
I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I have ENORMOUS equanimity right now and it is automatic and feels great but unless I can chip away at those habits it's a fools gold.
Keep practicing and refining your knowledge.
Good luck!
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Pawe? K - 2014-05-06 09:04:01 - RE: Equanimity?
in_front-ness of everything is surely sign of EQ quality of experience and it is how children experience world for sure.
other thing that is very EQesque is that formations tend to go through each other. If you have habit to visualize everything then it will literally look like objects seem to be able to pass through themselves. In DN there is repulsion between those objects that are aggregates of sensations and even individual sensations. Like touch that is composite of thousands of little touch sensations (it will present itself that way in higher EQ) will at DN felt like those touch sensations repel each other creating dukkha experience. Touch itself is neutral but this aversion is painful. In EQ those sensations don't seem to interact and are merely there and in a way it can feel like sensations are numbed at times (compared to A&P and DN) but because mind see everything in such clarity it shows that without those addons that we normally inject it is how we feel our own body and mind.
at A&P on the other hand sensations do interact but mind is very selective. It can switch very fast between sensations but don't have ability to see everything at once which ability is gained at higher stages of DN and crystallize at EQ. So at A&P mind feel like grabbing sensations fully but is also jumping so really it is grabbing just one (non)quality of these sensations. Mind is stupid and mistake this quality for sensations themselves and try to grab sensations itself to find its impossible and finds 3C hard way. Its EQ in which mind have to again turn to what was really source of its amazement in A&P, though even when it is found its hard not to fall to the same trap again... and again...
also at EQ, especially during meditation there might be sensation of living sky with living stars and especially during a day mind as water surface where thoughts, especially unskillful will create waves on its surface. When zooming in using abilities gained in higher EQ it always looks the same, just bunch (bazillions) of sensations, often related to body
Anyway, don't take sensations of I am great meditator as source of your happiness as it could throw you back to depths of DN if you fall for it. Instead try to see what it would be like without this sensation. I am not suggesting I am not great meditator but no such concept/sensation existing altogether. How would it feel then? If you like you can take this as your koan to strengthen your Zen side of practice =)
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Richard Zen - 2014-05-06 14:13:56 - RE: Equanimity?
Here's a good talk that will keep you questioning further and interested beyond equanimity and also how to expand your equanimity:
On Nature of Mind
Hang out in equanimity and expand it to all areas that consciousness is aware of as a staging point and try to go further. You can note "empty" or "not self" towards consciousness.
