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Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]

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Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker]


Dream Walker - 2014-04-29 18:41:27 - Kenneth Folk's book

Kenneth Folk's book - contemplativefitnessbook
Good stuff in it...I especially liked his descriptions of the Nanas. His description of EQ is well done.
check it out, and buy a copy when he's done and published.
~D

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Eric M W - 2014-04-30 00:46:49 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

This is awesome.

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Droll Dedekind - 2014-04-30 01:20:49 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Aye, Eric, aye

Read a good chunk of it. Does Kenneth address the powers anywhere?

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Robin Woods - 2014-04-30 10:51:17 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Thanks DW!!

I don't think I've read anything so quickly in ages. Particularly liked the Ladder of Abstraction thing. Been trying to put my finger on something like that recently but without any way of conceptualizing it. My entire 20s spent utterly lost in a world of extreme abstraction without even being aware it was happening...

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Eric M W - 2014-04-30 11:04:54 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Droll Dedekind:
Aye, Eric, aye

Read a good chunk of it. Does Kenneth address the powers anywhere?

He reflects on his first A&P experience while under the influence of LSD, but that's about it.

Talking about the powers isn't very common in the pragmatic dharma community, it seems.  It's actually one of my pet peeves, as I've had some mind-blowing powers stuff happen to me in the past and there doesn't seem to be any modern, non-dogmatic framework for such experiences, except perhaps Robert Monroe's books.

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Dream Walker - 2014-04-30 18:22:14 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Eric M W:
there doesn't seem to be any modern, non-dogmatic framework for such experiences, except perhaps Robert Monroe's books.
Don't forget "My Big Toe". Where Tom Campbell explains the powers quite well. {shameless plug} 
(just read it already....you know you want to) emoticon

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Eric M W - 2014-04-30 18:31:08 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Dream Walker:
Eric M W:
there doesn't seem to be any modern, non-dogmatic framework for such experiences, except perhaps Robert Monroe's books.
Don't forget "My Big Toe". Where Tom Campbell explains the powers quite well. {shameless plug} 
(just read it already....you know you want to) emoticon

Oh right!  I have it bookmarked, I found it on Google Books.  I had no idea that "TC Physicist" from Far Journeys was Tom Campbell.  I need to read it someday...

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Daniel M. Ingram - 2014-05-01 20:47:04 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Re: Kenneth and the powers, he has gone through numerous powers-heavy phases in his meditative career but when I talked with him recently about that he was in an anti-powers mood. It is common in general to swing this way when doing strong practice, with interest in the powers turning into dislike for them and then back again, etc. in a cyclical fashion. I have done and continue to do the same.

I actually have just spent lots of time working on substantially extending MCTB2's powers section, as I think that there is nowhere that really covers them that well, and if you are going to get into hardcore practice you should know about them, so think I at this moment, but later I might not be as into them, as noted above.

I think Kenneth's book is really going for his own vibe and aesthetic, which is more palatable and less controversial, more mainstream, more like going to the gym, like there is nothing particularly controversial about working out, though I don't mean to imply "mainstream" in a bad way, as I realize that term here can ring oddly, and I don't mean it to. The mainstream should get quality dharma, dharma that helps them to go deeper if they wish to, and I think that is CF's goal.

Using the funnel analogy, in which there is the wide end of the funnel occupied by things like MBSR and gentle breath-counting relaxation, and the narrow end of the funnel, occupied by things like this place, my read of Contemplative Fitness' purpose is more to get people to feel comfortable and empowered to move from the wide end to the middle of the funnel and perhaps go deeper without feeling like it is something really strange to do so, whereas MCTB is clearly for very narrow end of the funnel and for most people pretty radical, even for many Buddhists.

I think that working all parts of the funnel has merits, and I wish CF great success.

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Eric M W - 2014-05-01 23:31:05 - RE: Kenneth Folk's book

Daniel M. Ingram:
Re: Kenneth and the powers, he has gone through numerous powers-heavy phases in his meditative career but when I talked with him recently about that he was in an anti-powers mood. It is common in general to swing this way when doing strong practice, with interest in the powers turning into dislike for them and then back again, etc. in a cyclical fashion. I have done and continue to do the same.

I personally had a powers-heavy phase a few years back, but have largely lost interest these days.  I suspect being a dark night yogi plays into this.  Still, communicating with an individual who identified themselves as being deceased, and then having all the information verified by a living relative, remains one of the biggest WTF moments of my life.

In addition, a lot of folks talk about enlightenment from a neuroscience point of view.  This is great, but it rustles my jimmies when it is implied that enlightenment (or any kind of spiritual practice) is nothing more than the creation of changes in physical brain.  The brain can't even be experienced, and even if it could, it would just be a bunch of sensations like everything else.

When one experiences anything like telepathy or out-of-body travel, they have obviously moved beyond the physical brain.  It's frustrating when everyone wants to pretend that this "beyond" doesn't exist.

I actually have just spent lots of time working on substantially extending MCTB2's powers section, as I think that there is nowhere that really covers them that well, and if you are going to get into hardcore practice you should know about them, so think I at this moment, but later I might not be as into them, as noted above.

Awesome!  The only downside being, a lot of folks with a more materialistic view may find themselves tossing the book down, though I suppose that is ultimately their own problem.

I think Kenneth's book is really going for his own vibe and aesthetic, which is more palatable and less controversial, more mainstream, more like going to the gym, like there is nothing particularly controversial about working out, though I don't mean to imply "mainstream" in a bad way, as I realize that term here can ring oddly, and I don't mean it to. The mainstream should get quality dharma, dharma that helps them to go deeper if they wish to, and I think that is CF's goal.

Using the funnel analogy, in which there is the wide end of the funnel occupied by things like MBSR and gentle breath-counting relaxation, and the narrow end of the funnel, occupied by things like this place, my read of Contemplative Fitness' purpose is more to get people to feel comfortable and empowered to move from the wide end to the middle of the funnel and perhaps go deeper without feeling like it is something really strange to do so, whereas MCTB is clearly for very narrow end of the funnel and for most people pretty radical, even for many Buddhists.


I do think a more mainstream introduction to the whole "Hey, enlightenment is real, attainable, and mappable" thing is a fantastic idea.  Maybe we can all come out of the dharma closet now, eh?

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/27/14 4:03 PM as a reply to Migration 6.2 Daemon.
bump

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/27/14 8:45 PM as a reply to Migration 6.2 Daemon.
Eric:
I personally had a powers-heavy phase a few years back, but have largely lost interest these days.  I suspect being a dark night yogi plays into this.  Still, communicating with an individual who identified themselves as being deceased, and then having all the information verified by a living relative, remains one of the biggest WTF moments of my life.

In addition, a lot of folks talk about enlightenment from a neuroscience point of view.  This is great, but it rustles my jimmies when it is implied that enlightenment (or any kind of spiritual practice) is nothing more than the creation of changes in physical brain.  The brain can't even be experienced, and even if it could, it would just be a bunch of sensations like everything else.

When one experiences anything like telepathy or out-of-body travel, they have obviously moved beyond the physical brain.  It's frustrating when everyone wants to pretend that this "beyond" doesn't exist.


How do you fit all of this in with anatta? How can Buddhism be a "spiritual" practice when the whole point of the practice is to realize that there is no spirit?

EDIT: I noticed the wording here sounds blunt, but I'm genuinely curious. :3

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/27/14 7:17 PM as a reply to Migration 6.2 Daemon.
Daniel,

      Should you ever read this could you give an example of other teachers/teachings/organizations that might be considered at the narrow end of the funnel? The one that comes most immediately to mind is Reggie Ray, but aside from here, and there, I find a lack of teachers/teachings that interest me. Thank you.

Bill

P.S- If anyone else has any thoughts/suggestions for teachers they find unique and with a bit of depth please do include your thoughts. Thanks.

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/28/14 12:41 AM as a reply to Bill F..
Pau Auk, Shaila Caterine, Chokyi Nyima, Urgen Tulku, most Mahasi teachers (U Janaka, U Kundula, U Pandita), some of Bhante Gunaratana's stuff (The Path of Serenity and Insight, The Jhanas), and plenty of Kenneth stuff is all narrow end. There are plenty of others. Those were just the first ones to come to mind. Visuddhimagga: narrow end. The Fruits of the Homeless Life (DN 2): narrow end. etc.

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/28/14 5:15 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Thank you. I appreciate it.

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/30/14 9:16 PM as a reply to Bill F..
William Golden Finch:
Daniel,

      Should you ever read this could you give an example of other teachers/teachings/organizations that might be considered at the narrow end of the funnel? The one that comes most immediately to mind is Reggie Ray, but aside from here, and there, I find a lack of teachers/teachings that interest me. Thank you.

Bill

P.S- If anyone else has any thoughts/suggestions for teachers they find unique and with a bit of depth please do include your thoughts. Thanks.


Shinzen Young, Vince Horn, Ron Crouch, the Hamilton Project, and Thanissaro should also be mentioned.

RE: Kenneth Folk's book [Dream Walker] [MIGRATE]
Answer
5/30/14 9:21 PM as a reply to Migration 6.2 Daemon.


I actually have just spent lots of time working on substantially extending MCTB2's powers section, as I think that there is nowhere that really covers them that well, and if you are going to get into hardcore practice you should know about them, so think I at this moment, but later I might not be as into them, as noted above.

Awesome!  The only downside being, a lot of folks with a more materialistic view may find themselves tossing the book down, though I suppose that is ultimately their own problem.

I have a very materialistic view, and I'm really looking forward to MCTB2, especially the powers stuff. It's odd, the section on the powers in MCTB is mostly on the materialistic side, with the exception of one paragraph -- which pretty much blew me out of the water, as that one solitary paragraph is completely different from the viewpoint of the rest of the book -- which flat-out stated that the powers were real, without much commentary or explanation. I'd like to read and understand more on this.

The "extraordinary" interpretation of powers-like experiences seems self-evidently absurd to me, for reasons I've gone into (all evidence points to other explanations as being much more likely), but I'm very open to and interested in reading further discussion on it, even though I currently disagree.