Question about statement MCTB [John Power] [MIGRATE]

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Question about statement MCTB [John Power] [MIGRATE]

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Question about statement MCTB [John Power]


John Power - 2014-04-28 09:45:37 - Question about statement MCTB

I have a question about the following statement in the MCTB:

Once someone has crossed the Arising and Passing Event, one will
enter the Dark Night regardless of whether one wants to or not. It
doesnít matter if you practice from this point on; once you cross the
A&P you are in the Dark Night to some degree (i.e. are a Dark Night
Yogi) until you figure out how to get through it, and if you do get
through it without getting to the first stage of enlightenment, you will
have to go through it again and again until you do. I mean this in the
most absolute terms.


So ones crossed A&P you enter the DN, even if you stop practising. When don't get the first stage of enlightenment you fall back.But how can it be that some fall back to stages below A&P? 

For example: 1,5 years ago: crossed A&P on retreat went through DN, then after retreat stopped practising so much then few months later practising more again, experienced DN (fear, misery, disgust) again for at least 6 month (heavy period). Then few months later (apparantly felt back) crossed A&P (could be EQ?) again, few months later I think I was in Dissolution (or RE-O). A month ago crossed A&P and am now still in Dissolution. I have only read MCTB a month ago so it is hard to analyse and diagnose those experiences I had in the past.

Another statement:
Dissolution feels like a very natural place to stop practicing, the only problem being that the
later stages (Fear and the rest) tend to follow it soon enough even if one stops, though less intense practice leads to a less intense, if often prolonged, Dark Night.


I would appreciate if someone can help me with these questions. Thanks in advance.

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Eric M W - 2014-04-28 13:38:08 - RE: Question about statement MCTB

Hello John,

John Power:

So ones crossed A&P you enter the DN, even if you stop practising. When don't get the first stage of enlightenment you fall back.But how can it be that some fall back to stages below A&P?

This is where I'm at.  I crossed the A&P two years ago without knowing what it was, got slammed with the Dark Night without knowing what it was, and managed to "touch" Equanimity a year after the mess started.  After I touched EQ I dropped back down to the bottom of the nanas, because I wasn't practicing.

So, I am technically below A&P again, but things are not the same, and never will be the same.  My baseline has been thoroughly shattered and I'm in a complex and confusing place where I need to get back on the ride, but I've already been changed by what my mind has been through.

In A Path With Heart, Jack Kornfield talks about this sort of thing in his chapter on expanding and dissolving the self. He says if one quits meditating in the middle of the Dark Night, it will continue to haunt us and become an undercurrent of consciousness.  That's what it feels like for me.  It's like a deep psychological wound or sense of loss that is always there, even though I'm below the A&P.

Dissolution feels like a very natural place to stop practicing, the only problem being that the
later stages (Fear and the rest) tend to follow it soon enough even if one stops, though less intense practice leads to a less intense, if often prolonged, Dark Night.

The DN naturally moves from Dissolution, to Fear, etc, all the way to Re-Observation.

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John Power - 2014-04-28 14:46:39 - RE: Question about statement MCTB

Hello Eric M W,

Thank you for your responds.

So according to the statement: You just have to go through A&P and then with or without practice you will go through the DN till you arive at RE-O. To get to EQ you probably will have to practise?

You said you dropped back from EQ to the bottom of the nanas. How did the drop go? Like EQ, RE-O till the lowest nana. Or was it more like a big drop?

You said things are not the same. That makes sense because you learnt from the knowledges, otherwise you didn't get that far. I am curious what are the big differentes in comparising to you not having practised at all, because your mindfulness and other helpers are probably not strong at the moment. 
You will probably move faster through the nanas if you start practising because of the things you learnt. Have you tried practising again? Why did you stop practising?

I can't find a pfd of A Path With Heart with Chapter 10 - expanding and dissolving the self in it. Do you have a pdf version? Or is there a copyright.

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Eric M W - 2014-04-28 16:55:22 - RE: Question about statement MCTB

John Power:

So according to the statement: You just have to go through A&P and then with or without practice you will go through the DN till you arive at RE-O. To get to EQ you probably will have to practise?

Yes, once you cross the A&P you are already in the Dark Night.  To get to EQ one must deeply and sincerely accept the unpleasant sensations of the DN, and notice the space around them.  In other words, simply keep practicing.

You said you dropped back from EQ to the bottom of the nanas. How did the drop go? Like EQ, RE-O till the lowest nana. Or was it more like a big drop?

I'm not sure how the drop went.  The shift into EQ was very clear-- a knot loosened in my chest, a fog lifted from my mind, and everything suddenly became the same thing (if that makes sense).  I got a real sense that everything I saw was of the same "essence" and was just dancing silently.

I had no idea what the maps were, I thought I was done with the dark night.  I went to bed and when I woke up, I was no longer in EQ.

You said things are not the same. That makes sense because you learnt from the knowledges, otherwise you didn't get that far. I am curious what are the big differentes in comparising to you not having practised at all, because your mindfulness and other helpers are probably not strong at the moment.

Well, my current baseline is basically the dark night, though it's not a strong one, more of an existential angst.  I can talk to others about dharma points such as impermanence knowing from firsthand experience what it is like.  I understand the 3C's in a very deep and profound way, though probably not as much as I would if I was a stream enterer.  

When I sit to meditate, it's like someone hits the reset button and I'm back in Mind & Body, no more dark night undercurrent.  Though lately, I jump straight to the third nana, which I'm hoping is a sign of progress.  I just try to be with whatever happens in the moment, because the maps can really make future-oriented if I'm not careful.

You will probably move faster through the nanas if you start practising because of the things you learnt. Have you tried practising again? Why did you stop practising?

I practice on and off, but I can't practice much because I have a full-time job, three kids with one on the way, and an overall busy life.  I would love to go on a retreat some day soon and reach stream-entry.

I can't find a pfd of A Path With Heart with Chapter 10 - expanding and dissolving the self in it. Do you have a pdf version? Or is there a copyright.

There is a copyright, sad to say.  I recommend purchasing it, it's a treasure trove of wisdom and section on expanding and dissolving the self is worth the money alone.

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John Power - 2014-04-28 17:29:34 - RE: Question about statement MCTB

John Power:

So according to the statement: You just have to go through A&P and then with or without practice you will go through the DN till you arive at RE-O. To get to EQ you probably will have to practise?

Eric M W:
Yes, once you cross the A&P you are already in the Dark Night.  To get to EQ one must deeply and sincerely accept the unpleasant sensations of the DN, and notice the space around them.  In other words, simply keep practicing.

So that is a bit confusing because when you cross A&P you can only move forward (through the DN), but after a while, it is suddenly possible to fall back to the lower stages of insight.

John Power:
You said you dropped back from EQ to the bottom of the nanas. How did the drop go? Like EQ, RE-O till the lowest nana. Or was it more like a big drop?

Eric M W:
I'm not sure how the drop went.  The shift into EQ was very clear-- a knot loosened in my chest, a fog lifted from my mind, and everything suddenly became the same thing (if that makes sense).  I got a real sense that everything I saw was of the same "essence" and was just dancing silently.

I had no idea what the maps were, I thought I was done with the dark night.  I went to bed and when I woke up, I was no longer in EQ.

After waking up suddenly not in EQ anymore, but probably also not DN because if that was the cause you would now that.
Maybe the shift into EQ was into high EQ and then after waking up, it was early EQ.

John Power:
You said things are not the same. That makes sense because you learnt from the knowledges, otherwise you didn't get that far. I am curious what are the big differentes in comparising to you not having practised at all, because your mindfulness and other helpers are probably not strong at the moment.

Eric M W:
Well, my current baseline is basically the dark night, though it's not a strong one, more of an existential angst.  I can talk to others about dharma points such as impermanence knowing from firsthand experience what it is like.  I understand the 3C's in a very deep and profound way, though probably not as much as I would if I was a stream enterer.  

When I sit to meditate, it's like someone hits the reset button and I'm back in Mind & Body, no more dark night undercurrent.  Though lately, I jump straight to the third nana, which I'm hoping is a sign of progress.  I just try to be with whatever happens in the moment, because the maps can really make future-oriented if I'm not careful.

Interesting, maybe you are more aware in daily life lately and that why your mindfulness is stronger and you can get in the third nana.

John Power:
You will probably move faster through the nanas if you start practising because of the things you learnt. Have you tried practising again? Why did you stop practising?

Eric M W:
I practice on and off, but I can't practice much because I have a full-time job, three kids with one on the way, and an overall busy life.  I would love to go on a retreat some day soon and reach stream-entry.

Nice target! But in daily life you also can make much progress. Every moment you are aware you are meditating.

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