The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground. [James Yen] [MIGRATE] - Discussion
The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground. [James Yen]
James Yen - 2014-04-23 21:50:12 - The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
The Dharma Overground is based upon the premise that if one sits down and meditates, one will reach Awakening.
This premise is flawed, and false, now I'm not saying meditation is bad or even unnecessary. Rather I'm pinpointing and criticizing the notion that one's intention, view, speech, actions and livelihood have no effect on where one goes.
The Buddha was adamant about one thing:
With wrong view, comes wrong intention, comes wrong speech, comes wrong action, comes wrong livelihood, comes wrong effort, comes wrong mindfulness, comes wrong concentration.
Without the correction view you will not end up at the correct destination.
This is in fact precisely why no one at the Dharma Overground has ever touched the end of suffering, simply because they did not practice right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.
The DhO is premised on the notion that "despite" one's intentions, meditation will change them, whereas I say intention is instrumental.
This is why the majority of meditators here simply spiral around in their mental masturbation-esque fantasies while neglecting the real work.
Don't neglect,
James
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Jeff Grove - 2014-04-23 22:40:33 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Sorry James but your premise appears to be based on wrong view, and with wrong view comes wrong intention, comes wrong speech, comes wrong action, comes wrong livelihood, comes wrong effort, comes wrong mindfulness, comes wrong concentration.
Without the correction view you will not end up at the correct destination.
peace
Jeff
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James Yen - 2014-04-23 22:49:41 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Sorry Jeff, but your reply seems to be based on wrong view...
Oh hey we just ended up where we started.
Sweet!
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James Yen - 2014-04-23 22:53:57 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Oh also,
With wrong Jeff, comes wrong post.
Therefore we cannot neglect to have the right Jeff.
-
Sorry I'm just trolling, I don't understand why you think you were saying anything though. You were literally saying nothing with that reply.
Peace,
James
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James Yen - 2014-04-23 23:04:10 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
You know what I'll throw you a bone.
Maybe I do have wrong view, and consequently all those other things. Fine.
Maybe I'm a dissenter and you're all right. That's actually how I feel.
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Chris M - 2014-04-23 23:06:38 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I pretty much agree with what so are saying James, but would add also that many of the "Dark Night" issues and intensity of, could be resolved by proper practice of the Eight-fold Path. This is what happens when Meditation is not correctly balanced by Wisdom & Conduct. Importantly, Right View being most necessary to address first, as the Buddha stated it is "the forerunner" conditioning all the other factors of the path. And of course Right View essentially boils-down to not being ignorant of and comprehending the Four Noble Truths, of which the Eight-fold Path is the 4th Truth. There is a nice circularity to this.
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Jeff Grove - 2014-04-24 02:36:33 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James how did you come to the conclusion that
The Dharma Overground is based upon the premise that if one sits down and meditates, one will reach Awakening
cheers
Jeff
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dat Buddha-field - 2014-04-24 04:11:31 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
After lurking around here a while, I completely agree with you.
That intention is instrumental is the understatement of the century. Intention is fundamental.
Looking at the five aggregates, mental formations/fabrication is the intentional element we bring to experience. What I see here is a lot of people fabricating elaborate narratives. It's not everyone, but it seems like the vast majority. It's the opposite of the 'mushroom factor', the shadow side of 'pragmatic' dharma. Every moron thinks they're an arhat.
I don't claim to have stream entry, but I know that I know a lot more about reality than many of the people on this site who claim to be enlightened.
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Daniel M. Ingram - 2014-04-24 07:25:19 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I think that the flaw in that basic statement is that the DhO is not anything resembling a uniform entity, but is instead a community of loosely aligned people sharing some basic views and inclinations but who otherwise are extremely diverse in their practices, views, conceptualizations, teachers, goals, attainments, talents, abilities, weaknesses, and the like.
As is routinely demonstrated here, characterizing this place one way or the other is not easy, and aspects of it seem to change all the time, as does everything.
How has it arisen that you believe the whole group can be so easily characterized? While certainly not all participate, last count of signed-up members was about 3,800, and the number of lurkers is probably vastly higher, but I have no numbers on them at all.
That's a lot of people, a lot of views, a lot of practices, a lot of takes on the dharma from many traditions, relations, teachers, and the like. This site is not explicitly Buddhist or anything else. It is dedicated to practices that reduce suffering and enhance peoples lives in practical ways. That is a very, very wide net it casts, and, while for historical reasons the place obviously often focuses more narrowly than that, still, look around and see the diversity and see if such blanket statements reflect more than your own biases and gross generalizations.
James, have you considered starting a community that was, in your view, free of flaws? It would be an interesting project. More sister sites enhance the community, I think. Please, create one to suit your tastes if you feel that it would be of benefit. It is easily done and for free or nearly no money in this modern age.
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Simon E - 2014-04-24 08:14:32 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
You know, I find it sort of odd to see right view being preached by someone who has spent years trolling this forum. How is this time any different than the numerous other times that you have come here, made a bunch of claims, then admitted you were lying a month later?
Simon
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 08:52:21 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Simon,
I really don't want to do this dance this time around. I would add that I don't feel that I'm lying, because I'm sincere.
On the other hand is everything I say factually accurate?
Who gives a fuck.
The point is to be sincere.
How do you feel?
Sincerely,
James
Edit:
Factual truth is never important, there is no such thing as factual truth. There is only such thing as relative or contextual truth.
And that is the truth.
Lawl.
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Simon E - 2014-04-24 11:49:01 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
Well, if what you're saying isn't, to the best of your knowledge, factually accurate, then in my eyes you aren't being sincere.
Which dance is it you don't want to do this time around? The one where you make a bunch of claims to troll the forum, or the one where you have to answer for your previous behaviour?
Trying to excuse trolling with the claim that factual truth isn't important doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your new-found sincerity.
Simon
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 12:40:26 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Then according to you Simon, what is factually accurate?
You can't say, that's the thing.
I actually never lied, I really did believe the claims that I made (at least enough to claim them), but I never outright lied. I did however, post-hoc, say that I lied just to be completely honest.
Which ended up being dishonest.
What exactly was wrong with my previous behavior anyways?
Can you pinpoint anything?
Can you even pinpoint me?
(Which is what you're trying to do.)
Okey dokey then.
No fucks given.
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 12:42:11 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Simon you gotta help me out here.
Why are you trying to oust and pinpoint me? Do you realize that it's not possible? (I tried to do this with a friend.)
I will never yield, just as you will never give up.
This is the dance I wish to avoid.
(smiley face)
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Simon E - 2014-04-24 13:14:40 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
I'm not trying to, as you say, pinpoint you. I'm trying to understand what, if anything, is different this time around. Ie. why I should believe anything that you are saying when experience has shown that most of what you write here is lies and trolling.
However this particular exchange doesn't seem to be leading anywhere which was pretty much to be expected, so I guess we can agree on just dropping this line of inquiry. You can go on posting and I can go on ignoring your postings and we can both go on with our lives.
Simon
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Sweet Nothing - 2014-04-24 14:02:54 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
I partially agree with you.
This website is about a very modern mutation of what can hardly be called "Buddhism" or the noble eightfold path, since it loosely follows bits of what the Buddha taught.
There are many people who come around here from many different practices and try to find a common ground for helping each other on our spiritual quest.
This book by Thanissaro handles the subject tactfully :
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/BeyondAllDirections_v130911.pdf
The Buddha readily admitted that even though release (from suffering) isnít touched by
time, his teachings on the path to release would, over time, be neglected and
replaced by others. But he didnít regard that fact as a happy one. He compared
changes to the teaching to changes in a drum whose wooden body is repaired
by pegs every time it splits, to the point where the body is gone, and nothing
but pegs remain (SN 20:7). Just as a drum of pegs would be useless for
summoning people from far away, in the same way, ìreplacement Dhammaî
(saddhamma-pa?ir?pa) would be ineffective in leading to release.
The folks at www.dhammawheel.com are closer to the teachings taught in the Pali cannon.
Nothing can be achieved from telling someone with wrong views in their face that their views are wrong. There are many factors that give rise to wrong views and I anticipate that in time people who are dedicated enough in their pursuit for the truth do end up cultivating right views and abandoning wrong views, as well as understanding the real causes for suffering.
I know only 2 people who have been on this website who I feel have holistically pursued the tatagatha's teachings with the necessary honesty, sincerity and discipline. Only they can gauge their accomplishments, and I am grateful for this website with all it's flaws just because it let me come across the 2 of them. Of course, there may be others I haven't come across or don't know well enough.
No taking names or bruising egos pls.
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Pawe? K - 2014-04-24 14:54:28 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
bullshit
there ate tons of sites where there is much more attention to intentions and other aspects of spirituality, much more than sites specializing in hardcore meditation...
so what is DhO fault really?
only thing that could be better would be better practicing/enlightened folks ratio. By which I obviously mean more practicing and less supremely enlightened
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-24 15:27:57 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James, I can pin you down, because I am the Tathagata. By encompassing your mind with my mind, I have determined that on the dissolution of your body, after death, you will reappear in a state of deprivation. I see this also with the divine eye, just as clearly as if you were to look at a ball rolling off a roof, you would know the ball will fall on such and such a spot and not on another.
It's nothing personal, it's just that these faculties never lie and are infallible.
However, I also understand your inclinations and the disposition of your faculties, along with the ways leading to all destinations. So I know that by me speaking this, there is a good chance you will correct your path and make the right exertions, leading to Full Awakening *in this lifetime*, instead of the wrong exertions, leading to a painful, extremely long stay in hell. Which hell? To be honest it's not looking good. You are trying to split the sangha by preaching Not-Dhamma as Dhamma, which is basically the worst offense you could commit. Keep in mind I only say the following to help you correct your path.
First, you will fall into the Avici hell, where you are going to be roasted in an immense blazing oven with terrible suffering. You will remain there for 3,397,386,240,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Avici hell, you will fall into the Pratapana hell, where you will be impaled on bloody tridents. You will remain there for 424,673,280,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Pratapana hell, you will fall into the Mahapadma hell, where the frost will crack your entire body into pieces, exposing your internal organs to the cold which will crack them also. You will remain there for 290,688,000,000,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Mahapadma hell, you will fall into the Tapana hell, where you will be pierced with fiery spears by the hell guards until flames issue from your nose and mouth. You will remain there for 53,084,160,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Tapana hell, you will fall into the Padma hell, where blizzards will crack open your frozen skin, leaving you raw and bloody. You will remain there for 14,534,400,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Padma hell, you will fall into the Maharaurava hell, where hellish animals will torment you and eat your flesh. You will remain there for 6,635,520,000,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Maharaurava hell, you will fall into the Raurava hell, where the ground is eternally burning; you will scramble about looking for shelter; finally when you think you've found it you will get trapped and it will start blazing around you; after years of blazing you will be released, only to run about again. You will remain there for 829,440,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Raurava hell, you will fall into the Utpala hell, where blistering raging blizzard storms will peel the flesh from your body and turn your bones blue. You will remain there for 726,720,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Utpala hell, you will fall into the Samghata hell, where you will be smashed by huge masses of rock and turned to pulp, only to be reanimated as the rocks part to be then smashed again. You will remain there for 103,680,000,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Samghata hell, you will fall into the Huhuva hell, where the cold will make you shiver and your teeth chatter. You will remain there for 36,336,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Huhuva hell, you will fall into the Kalasutra hell, where black lines will be drawn on your body, which the hell guards will use to cut you with fiery saws and sharp axes. You will remain there for 12,960,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Kalasutra hell, you will fall into the Hahava hell, where you will never find respite from the cold, constantly lamenting your pain. You will remain there for 1,816,800,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Hahava hell, you will fall into the Sanjiva hell, where you will have molten metal be dropped on you, where you will be sliced into pieces, where other beings will relentlessly attack you. You will remain there for 1,620,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Sanjiva hell, you will fall into the Atata hell, where the cold is so great, with no relief from it, that you will perpetually shiver from the frost. You will remain there for 90,840,000,000 years. Once you exit the Atata hell, you will fall into the Nirarbuda hell, where blizzards will raise blisters on your body and then burst them, leaving you covered in frozen blood and pus. You will remain there for 4,542,000,000 years.
Finally, once you exit the Nirarbuda hell, you will fall into the Arbuda hell, where you will lie naked and alone with perpetual blizzards blistering your body. You will remain there for 227,100,000 years.
However, because your path is currently so vile, the bad karma so great, once you exit the Arbuda hell, you will not be reborn as an animal. No, you will fall into the Nirarbuda hell, and go through the entire sequence in reverse order. Once you have completed the course and spent 3,397,386,240,000,000,000 years in the Avici hell again, you will follow the sequence again in forward order.
Then, once you exit the Arbuda hell for the second time, you will be reborn as a slug. You will be squished and squashed and eaten by all sorts of creatures. After a thousand lifetimes of being a slug, you will be reborn as a fish. You will be eaten by other fish, die of diseases, and get caught by fishermen. After a thousand lifetimes of being a fish, you will be reborn as a bird. You will be a poor hunter, constantly starving, and you will be constantly hunted down. After a thousand lifetimes of being a bird, you will be reborn as a lion. You will never have children, you will always be diseased, and men will kill you for your fur.
After a thousand lifetimes of being a lion, you will be reborn as a hungry ghost. You will wander the realm, searching in vain for fulfillment. After a thousand lifetimes of being a hungry ghost, you will be reborn as a titan. You will constantly be in conflict with other titans, and you will be weak and never win.
Finally, after a thousand lifetimes of being a titan, you will be reborn as a human. At this point you will be in much the same spot as you are now, having burned off all the bad karma your actions are currently generating, and you'll have another shot of attaining Full Awakening. What you do in that lifetime will determine whether you do another course of hells, or whether you attain the greatest and most valuable treasure that any being in any realm could ever hope to attain.
Please, James, spare yourself the trouble of going through all that and correct your path now.
Cheers,
- Claudiu, the Ultimate, Unsurpassed, Extreme Tathagata
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Jane Laurel Carrington - 2014-04-24 16:06:58 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I would gladly endure all of that rather than be forced to spend my morning dealing with paper clutter.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-24 16:23:13 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Being the Tathagata I have also seen, with the divine eye, a set of previously never-seen-before hells.
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 16:36:33 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
So to be completely honest, I have no idea what the fuck is going on.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-24 16:53:35 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Maybe you shouldn't stop. You're really good at it. You consistently get a lot of attention and replies, time and time again. Do you enjoy it? If you do and you could come up with some way to monetize it then you'd be set.
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Psi Phi - 2014-04-24 17:05:47 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James, you do know what is going on, "you" is just mental formations of neurons, many of these neuron cells have been replaced many times over, they die and regrow, following old patterns and new patterns. The you that has ever posted here before is irrevocably dissolved back into the universe, and a new you has regrown, following your new pattern blueprint, based upon previous causes and conditions. The path is a gradual path, as you know, you are changing, we all are always changing. The thing to remember is that without practice one will stagnate and slide backwards, and to remember that with practice one may stagnate or move forward.
Ahh! Now I am trolling ! hahahaha
Grok out
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Felipe C. - 2014-04-24 17:25:40 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
James Yen:
Maybe you shouldn't stop. You're really good at it. You consistently get a lot of attention and replies, time and time again. Do you enjoy it? If you do and you could come up with some way to monetize it then you'd be set.
Yeah, after all, you know what they say: there's only now. So, ask yourself "what can I do to be the best (worst?) troll I can possibly be right now?"
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Eric M W - 2014-04-25 00:05:35 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James, your concerns are valid but I'm not sure I follow you.
First of all, the Dho is a conglomerate of practitioners from varying traditions and backgrounds, it is problematic to say that there is a unified "view" on anything.
Second of all, the eightfold path is a good teaching, but I think the traditional way of summing it up into three trainings is more to the point. The first training is morality-- livelihood, actions, intent, etc. The second is concentration-- jhanas, one-pointedness of mind, powers, etc. The third is insight-- vipassana and ultimate wisdom.
You probably know all this already, but I think it's useful to reiterate. Now, if we are good with morality, we have minds free of negative states and lives conducive to meditation and spiritual pursuits. This makes the latter two trainings much, much easier. So, your concern is valid in a sense, but I don't understand why you have that concern in the first place, because as far as I can tell, no one around here is saying that living well is unnecessary.
*shrugs*
Eric
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Not Tao - 2014-04-25 02:06:00 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Jane, that paper clutter causes you so many problems, I'm betting you get a lot of mindfulness practice in at work. >_>
I've been lurking here a few months, which I think can give someone a distorted view of this place. Since I started posting, everyone has been very friendly and helpful, and there really are a lot of differing opinions. It's changed my view of the place, being part of the community.
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Chris M - 2014-04-25 09:55:58 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Thanks for the comic relief Beoman. I'm not sure if there was meant to be a more serious point to your post because I couldn't get past the belly-laughs ... very funny!
Eric M W, not trying to nit-pick here, but you have some factors listed under the wrong categories/trainings. As the 8FNP is so central and foundational, it bears getting it right:
The Eightfold Path (ariya-magga)
Wisdom/Discernment (paÒÒa)
1. Wise or Right View/Understanding (samma-ditthi) ñ Knowledge of the Four Noble Truths
2. Wise or Right Intention/Resolve (samm·-sankappa) ñ Renunciation, Loving-kindness, Harmlessness
Virtue (sila)
3. Wise or Right Speech (samm·-v·c·) ñ abstaining from lying, malicious or divisive speech, abusive or harsh speech, and idle chatter
4. Wise or Right Action (samm·-kammanta) ñ abstaining from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct
5. Wise or Right Livelihood (samm·-·jÌva) ñ abstaining from dishonest and harmful means of livelihood
Concentration/Meditation (samadhi)
6. Wise or Right Effort (samma-vayama) ñ the effort of avoiding and overcoming unskillful qualities, and of developing and maintaining skillful qualities
7. Wise or Right Mindfulness (samma-sati) ñ The Four Foundations of Mindfulness
8. Wise or Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) ñ The Four Form Jhanas
Incidentally, you often see 8FNP listed in the order you outlined Eric, that is: Sila-->Samadhi-->Panna, but I think it helps to understand it in the order: Panna-->Sila-->Samadhi, because the first path factor (Wise/Right View) conditions all other factors of the path. Which essentially is the movement from Mind-->Actions-->Cultivation. That is: View & Intention influence Actions, which in turn influence our ability to gain greater stability in Samadhi.
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Jane Laurel Carrington - 2014-04-25 12:35:48 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I also owe Beoman my thanks for the laugh. I've been in all of those new hells he brought to light, in one form or another.
And Chris, thanks for the clear exposition of the 8-fold path. I need a daily refresher, really, especially in the right speech area.
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Chris M - 2014-04-26 00:15:08 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I hear you Jane. I think right speech is the hardest, that and right intention/thought, the final filter of resolve, before it spews forth, sometimes ending in regret and remorse.
Right speech, such an important one too for forums!
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Michael A Speesler - 2014-04-28 19:38:08 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
To get back to your original point, I certainly think that actions, speech, etc. are extremely important as well as sitting in terms of Awakening. I don't claim to be fully awakened by any means, but I have found, and I am speaking only from my own personal experiences, that my sitting affects all the other aspects of my life. I think if one sits well and acts out in anger, their internal experience will be different than one who doesn't.
By sitting, we create a less reactive mind, and therefore will be less likely to act, speak, etc. in reactive ways. If we're not sitting with the intention to see reality clearly so we can be our best when off the cushion, then what's it all for?
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John Wilde - 2014-04-28 20:54:36 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
If we're not sitting with the intention to see reality clearly so we can be our best when off the cushion, then what's it all for?
Indeed, I'd never separate the two. For me, the clearest seeing is the deepest satisfaction is the best source of mutual benefit.... so the aim of practice is to see clearly enough to live well, and to live well enough to see clearly, and so on.
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. Jake . - 2014-04-29 17:30:44 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Nicely put John.
You encasulate well the non-linearity of 'Path' as a lived phenomenon. The feedback of each facet (speach, overt behavior, thoughts/views, insight, intentions...) into each other facet is incredibly complex. The feedback between living beings who inhabit from different perspectives multiplies that individual complexity by another infinite degree.
In a sense, 'Path' is just life, everyday life, with these non-linear dynamics becoming explicit. Formal sitting practice is a nice situation for cutting back on variables to simplify experience and thus catch clear glimpses of these dynamics *so that* we can embody them in our being-with-others. That embodiment and actualization of insight in turn clarifies the insights, and allows our bodies and minds to absorb their significance on deeper implicit levels-- thus making possible yet deeper, more comprehensive embodiment.
Trying to seperate 'insight' from life, from living well within ourselves and amongst others, is an odd project indeed!
James Yen - 2014-04-23 21:50:12 - The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
The Dharma Overground is based upon the premise that if one sits down and meditates, one will reach Awakening.
This premise is flawed, and false, now I'm not saying meditation is bad or even unnecessary. Rather I'm pinpointing and criticizing the notion that one's intention, view, speech, actions and livelihood have no effect on where one goes.
The Buddha was adamant about one thing:
With wrong view, comes wrong intention, comes wrong speech, comes wrong action, comes wrong livelihood, comes wrong effort, comes wrong mindfulness, comes wrong concentration.
Without the correction view you will not end up at the correct destination.
This is in fact precisely why no one at the Dharma Overground has ever touched the end of suffering, simply because they did not practice right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.
The DhO is premised on the notion that "despite" one's intentions, meditation will change them, whereas I say intention is instrumental.
This is why the majority of meditators here simply spiral around in their mental masturbation-esque fantasies while neglecting the real work.
Don't neglect,
James
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Jeff Grove - 2014-04-23 22:40:33 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Sorry James but your premise appears to be based on wrong view, and with wrong view comes wrong intention, comes wrong speech, comes wrong action, comes wrong livelihood, comes wrong effort, comes wrong mindfulness, comes wrong concentration.
Without the correction view you will not end up at the correct destination.
peace
Jeff
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James Yen - 2014-04-23 22:49:41 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Sorry Jeff, but your reply seems to be based on wrong view...
Oh hey we just ended up where we started.
Sweet!
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James Yen - 2014-04-23 22:53:57 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Oh also,
With wrong Jeff, comes wrong post.
Therefore we cannot neglect to have the right Jeff.
-
Sorry I'm just trolling, I don't understand why you think you were saying anything though. You were literally saying nothing with that reply.
Peace,
James
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James Yen - 2014-04-23 23:04:10 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
You know what I'll throw you a bone.
Maybe I do have wrong view, and consequently all those other things. Fine.
Maybe I'm a dissenter and you're all right. That's actually how I feel.
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Chris M - 2014-04-23 23:06:38 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I pretty much agree with what so are saying James, but would add also that many of the "Dark Night" issues and intensity of, could be resolved by proper practice of the Eight-fold Path. This is what happens when Meditation is not correctly balanced by Wisdom & Conduct. Importantly, Right View being most necessary to address first, as the Buddha stated it is "the forerunner" conditioning all the other factors of the path. And of course Right View essentially boils-down to not being ignorant of and comprehending the Four Noble Truths, of which the Eight-fold Path is the 4th Truth. There is a nice circularity to this.
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Jeff Grove - 2014-04-24 02:36:33 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James how did you come to the conclusion that
The Dharma Overground is based upon the premise that if one sits down and meditates, one will reach Awakening
cheers
Jeff
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dat Buddha-field - 2014-04-24 04:11:31 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
After lurking around here a while, I completely agree with you.
That intention is instrumental is the understatement of the century. Intention is fundamental.
Looking at the five aggregates, mental formations/fabrication is the intentional element we bring to experience. What I see here is a lot of people fabricating elaborate narratives. It's not everyone, but it seems like the vast majority. It's the opposite of the 'mushroom factor', the shadow side of 'pragmatic' dharma. Every moron thinks they're an arhat.
I don't claim to have stream entry, but I know that I know a lot more about reality than many of the people on this site who claim to be enlightened.
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Daniel M. Ingram - 2014-04-24 07:25:19 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I think that the flaw in that basic statement is that the DhO is not anything resembling a uniform entity, but is instead a community of loosely aligned people sharing some basic views and inclinations but who otherwise are extremely diverse in their practices, views, conceptualizations, teachers, goals, attainments, talents, abilities, weaknesses, and the like.
As is routinely demonstrated here, characterizing this place one way or the other is not easy, and aspects of it seem to change all the time, as does everything.
How has it arisen that you believe the whole group can be so easily characterized? While certainly not all participate, last count of signed-up members was about 3,800, and the number of lurkers is probably vastly higher, but I have no numbers on them at all.
That's a lot of people, a lot of views, a lot of practices, a lot of takes on the dharma from many traditions, relations, teachers, and the like. This site is not explicitly Buddhist or anything else. It is dedicated to practices that reduce suffering and enhance peoples lives in practical ways. That is a very, very wide net it casts, and, while for historical reasons the place obviously often focuses more narrowly than that, still, look around and see the diversity and see if such blanket statements reflect more than your own biases and gross generalizations.
James, have you considered starting a community that was, in your view, free of flaws? It would be an interesting project. More sister sites enhance the community, I think. Please, create one to suit your tastes if you feel that it would be of benefit. It is easily done and for free or nearly no money in this modern age.
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Simon E - 2014-04-24 08:14:32 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
You know, I find it sort of odd to see right view being preached by someone who has spent years trolling this forum. How is this time any different than the numerous other times that you have come here, made a bunch of claims, then admitted you were lying a month later?
Simon
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 08:52:21 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Simon,
I really don't want to do this dance this time around. I would add that I don't feel that I'm lying, because I'm sincere.
On the other hand is everything I say factually accurate?
Who gives a fuck.
The point is to be sincere.
How do you feel?
Sincerely,
James
Edit:
Factual truth is never important, there is no such thing as factual truth. There is only such thing as relative or contextual truth.
And that is the truth.
Lawl.
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Simon E - 2014-04-24 11:49:01 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
Well, if what you're saying isn't, to the best of your knowledge, factually accurate, then in my eyes you aren't being sincere.
Which dance is it you don't want to do this time around? The one where you make a bunch of claims to troll the forum, or the one where you have to answer for your previous behaviour?
Trying to excuse trolling with the claim that factual truth isn't important doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your new-found sincerity.
Simon
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 12:40:26 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Well, if what you're saying isn't, to the best of your knowledge, factually accurate, then in my eyes you aren't being sincere.
Then according to you Simon, what is factually accurate?
You can't say, that's the thing.
Which dance is it you don't want to do this time around? The one where you make a bunch of claims to troll the forum, or the one where you have to answer for your previous behaviour?
I actually never lied, I really did believe the claims that I made (at least enough to claim them), but I never outright lied. I did however, post-hoc, say that I lied just to be completely honest.
Which ended up being dishonest.
What exactly was wrong with my previous behavior anyways?
Can you pinpoint anything?
Can you even pinpoint me?
(Which is what you're trying to do.)
Trying to excuse trolling with the claim that factual truth isn't important doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your new-found sincerity.
Okey dokey then.
No fucks given.
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 12:42:11 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Simon you gotta help me out here.
Why are you trying to oust and pinpoint me? Do you realize that it's not possible? (I tried to do this with a friend.)
I will never yield, just as you will never give up.
This is the dance I wish to avoid.
(smiley face)
-------------------
Simon E - 2014-04-24 13:14:40 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
I'm not trying to, as you say, pinpoint you. I'm trying to understand what, if anything, is different this time around. Ie. why I should believe anything that you are saying when experience has shown that most of what you write here is lies and trolling.
However this particular exchange doesn't seem to be leading anywhere which was pretty much to be expected, so I guess we can agree on just dropping this line of inquiry. You can go on posting and I can go on ignoring your postings and we can both go on with our lives.
Simon
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Sweet Nothing - 2014-04-24 14:02:54 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Hi James,
I partially agree with you.
This website is about a very modern mutation of what can hardly be called "Buddhism" or the noble eightfold path, since it loosely follows bits of what the Buddha taught.
There are many people who come around here from many different practices and try to find a common ground for helping each other on our spiritual quest.
This book by Thanissaro handles the subject tactfully :
http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/BeyondAllDirections_v130911.pdf
The Buddha readily admitted that even though release (from suffering) isnít touched by
time, his teachings on the path to release would, over time, be neglected and
replaced by others. But he didnít regard that fact as a happy one. He compared
changes to the teaching to changes in a drum whose wooden body is repaired
by pegs every time it splits, to the point where the body is gone, and nothing
but pegs remain (SN 20:7). Just as a drum of pegs would be useless for
summoning people from far away, in the same way, ìreplacement Dhammaî
(saddhamma-pa?ir?pa) would be ineffective in leading to release.
In the centuries since the Buddhaís time, teachers who follow the canon
have adopted the vision of the path as purification, stressing the need to cleanse
the mind of its defilements if awakening is to occur. In the Thai Wilderness
tradition, for instance, teachers frequently describe Dhamma practice as an
attempt to outwit the defilements so as to end their obscuring influence in the
mind. To practice, they say, is to learn how little you can trust the mindís urges
and ideas because theyíre darkened with the defilement of delusion, whose
darkness in turn can allow greed, aversion, and all the other derived defilements
to grow. Only by questioning the mindís urges and ideas can you free yourself
from the influence of these defilements, leaving the mind totally pure.
But many modern Western teachersóanticipating that their listeners
would react unfavorably to hearing their minds called defiledóhave abandonedthe concept entirely. Even when discussing the problems of greed, aversion, and
delusion, they tend to avoid describing them as ìdefilements.î The closest they
come is calling them ìpoisons,î whose source they trace, not to the mind, but
to its external conditioning and its mistaken belief that these poisons are real.
Awakening, in this view, is a matter not of washing away defilement, but of
accepting the mind as it is, realizing that itís already pure.
There are several reasons for why modern teachers are probably correct in
anticipating a negative reaction to the idea of the mind as defiled, the primary
reason coming from modern Western psychology. Many psychotherapists have
identified low self-esteem as a prime cause of mental suffering, and the ability
to silence the voice of the inner hypercritic as the prime way to end that
suffering. Because the notion of defilement is critical of such normal mind
states as greed, aversion, and delusion, they see it as unhealthy: a cause of
suffering rather than a tool to bring suffering to an end.
This view is sometimes bolstered by appeals to Western cultural history.
People coming to Buddhism are often reacting to the doctrine of original sin,
which tells them that the nature of their mind is basically depraved. Manyó
unaware of the sourceóhave adopted the standard Western counter-arguments
to this doctrine. One is the idea advanced by European Romantics and
American Transcendentalists that the urges in the mind are essentially divine in
origin and thus basically good. Another is the postmodern idea that any
discourse of defilement or depravity is a political attempt to gain power over
others by telling them that their minds are so defiled that they canít trust
themselves to think straight, and so need outside help.
However, the most powerful support for the idea that thereís nothing
wrong with greed, aversion, and delusion comes from modern marketing.
Advertising, which has become our most pervasive source of cultural norms,
trades almost entirely on the notion that people should gratify their greed,
aversion, and delusion. So a great deal of money has been spent to turn people
into consumers who feel good about cultivating these tendencies. The result is
that people are accustomed to having these tendencies indulged, and so would
resist hearing that they are in any way defiled.
For these reasons, the resistance to the idea of mental defilement is so
pervasive that even when Western Buddhists encounter the Buddhaís most
emphatic statement on the need to understand the way in which the mind is
defiled, they interpret it to say that defilement is basically unreal.The Buddhaís statement is this:
ìLuminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming
defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesnít discern that as
it has come to be, which is why I tell you thatófor the uninstructed run-ofthe-mill personóthere is no development of the mind.î
ìLuminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming
defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it
has come to be, which is why I tell you thatófor the well-instructed disciple
of the noble onesóthere is development of the mind.î ó AN 1:51ñ52
have adopted the vision of the path as purification, stressing the need to cleanse
the mind of its defilements if awakening is to occur. In the Thai Wilderness
tradition, for instance, teachers frequently describe Dhamma practice as an
attempt to outwit the defilements so as to end their obscuring influence in the
mind. To practice, they say, is to learn how little you can trust the mindís urges
and ideas because theyíre darkened with the defilement of delusion, whose
darkness in turn can allow greed, aversion, and all the other derived defilements
to grow. Only by questioning the mindís urges and ideas can you free yourself
from the influence of these defilements, leaving the mind totally pure.
But many modern Western teachersóanticipating that their listeners
would react unfavorably to hearing their minds called defiledóhave abandonedthe concept entirely. Even when discussing the problems of greed, aversion, and
delusion, they tend to avoid describing them as ìdefilements.î The closest they
come is calling them ìpoisons,î whose source they trace, not to the mind, but
to its external conditioning and its mistaken belief that these poisons are real.
Awakening, in this view, is a matter not of washing away defilement, but of
accepting the mind as it is, realizing that itís already pure.
There are several reasons for why modern teachers are probably correct in
anticipating a negative reaction to the idea of the mind as defiled, the primary
reason coming from modern Western psychology. Many psychotherapists have
identified low self-esteem as a prime cause of mental suffering, and the ability
to silence the voice of the inner hypercritic as the prime way to end that
suffering. Because the notion of defilement is critical of such normal mind
states as greed, aversion, and delusion, they see it as unhealthy: a cause of
suffering rather than a tool to bring suffering to an end.
This view is sometimes bolstered by appeals to Western cultural history.
People coming to Buddhism are often reacting to the doctrine of original sin,
which tells them that the nature of their mind is basically depraved. Manyó
unaware of the sourceóhave adopted the standard Western counter-arguments
to this doctrine. One is the idea advanced by European Romantics and
American Transcendentalists that the urges in the mind are essentially divine in
origin and thus basically good. Another is the postmodern idea that any
discourse of defilement or depravity is a political attempt to gain power over
others by telling them that their minds are so defiled that they canít trust
themselves to think straight, and so need outside help.
However, the most powerful support for the idea that thereís nothing
wrong with greed, aversion, and delusion comes from modern marketing.
Advertising, which has become our most pervasive source of cultural norms,
trades almost entirely on the notion that people should gratify their greed,
aversion, and delusion. So a great deal of money has been spent to turn people
into consumers who feel good about cultivating these tendencies. The result is
that people are accustomed to having these tendencies indulged, and so would
resist hearing that they are in any way defiled.
For these reasons, the resistance to the idea of mental defilement is so
pervasive that even when Western Buddhists encounter the Buddhaís most
emphatic statement on the need to understand the way in which the mind is
defiled, they interpret it to say that defilement is basically unreal.The Buddhaís statement is this:
ìLuminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming
defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesnít discern that as
it has come to be, which is why I tell you thatófor the uninstructed run-ofthe-mill personóthere is no development of the mind.î
ìLuminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming
defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it
has come to be, which is why I tell you thatófor the well-instructed disciple
of the noble onesóthere is development of the mind.î ó AN 1:51ñ52
The folks at www.dhammawheel.com are closer to the teachings taught in the Pali cannon.
Nothing can be achieved from telling someone with wrong views in their face that their views are wrong. There are many factors that give rise to wrong views and I anticipate that in time people who are dedicated enough in their pursuit for the truth do end up cultivating right views and abandoning wrong views, as well as understanding the real causes for suffering.
I know only 2 people who have been on this website who I feel have holistically pursued the tatagatha's teachings with the necessary honesty, sincerity and discipline. Only they can gauge their accomplishments, and I am grateful for this website with all it's flaws just because it let me come across the 2 of them. Of course, there may be others I haven't come across or don't know well enough.
No taking names or bruising egos pls.
-------------------
Pawe? K - 2014-04-24 14:54:28 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
bullshit
there ate tons of sites where there is much more attention to intentions and other aspects of spirituality, much more than sites specializing in hardcore meditation...
so what is DhO fault really?
only thing that could be better would be better practicing/enlightened folks ratio. By which I obviously mean more practicing and less supremely enlightened
-------------------
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-24 15:27:57 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James Yen:
Simon you gotta help me out here.
Why are you trying to oust and pinpoint me? Do you realize that it's not possible? (I tried to do this with a friend.)
I will never yield, just as you will never give up.
This is the dance I wish to avoid.
(smiley face)
Why are you trying to oust and pinpoint me? Do you realize that it's not possible? (I tried to do this with a friend.)
I will never yield, just as you will never give up.
This is the dance I wish to avoid.
(smiley face)
James, I can pin you down, because I am the Tathagata. By encompassing your mind with my mind, I have determined that on the dissolution of your body, after death, you will reappear in a state of deprivation. I see this also with the divine eye, just as clearly as if you were to look at a ball rolling off a roof, you would know the ball will fall on such and such a spot and not on another.
It's nothing personal, it's just that these faculties never lie and are infallible.
However, I also understand your inclinations and the disposition of your faculties, along with the ways leading to all destinations. So I know that by me speaking this, there is a good chance you will correct your path and make the right exertions, leading to Full Awakening *in this lifetime*, instead of the wrong exertions, leading to a painful, extremely long stay in hell. Which hell? To be honest it's not looking good. You are trying to split the sangha by preaching Not-Dhamma as Dhamma, which is basically the worst offense you could commit. Keep in mind I only say the following to help you correct your path.
First, you will fall into the Avici hell, where you are going to be roasted in an immense blazing oven with terrible suffering. You will remain there for 3,397,386,240,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Avici hell, you will fall into the Pratapana hell, where you will be impaled on bloody tridents. You will remain there for 424,673,280,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Pratapana hell, you will fall into the Mahapadma hell, where the frost will crack your entire body into pieces, exposing your internal organs to the cold which will crack them also. You will remain there for 290,688,000,000,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Mahapadma hell, you will fall into the Tapana hell, where you will be pierced with fiery spears by the hell guards until flames issue from your nose and mouth. You will remain there for 53,084,160,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Tapana hell, you will fall into the Padma hell, where blizzards will crack open your frozen skin, leaving you raw and bloody. You will remain there for 14,534,400,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Padma hell, you will fall into the Maharaurava hell, where hellish animals will torment you and eat your flesh. You will remain there for 6,635,520,000,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Maharaurava hell, you will fall into the Raurava hell, where the ground is eternally burning; you will scramble about looking for shelter; finally when you think you've found it you will get trapped and it will start blazing around you; after years of blazing you will be released, only to run about again. You will remain there for 829,440,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Raurava hell, you will fall into the Utpala hell, where blistering raging blizzard storms will peel the flesh from your body and turn your bones blue. You will remain there for 726,720,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Utpala hell, you will fall into the Samghata hell, where you will be smashed by huge masses of rock and turned to pulp, only to be reanimated as the rocks part to be then smashed again. You will remain there for 103,680,000,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Samghata hell, you will fall into the Huhuva hell, where the cold will make you shiver and your teeth chatter. You will remain there for 36,336,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Huhuva hell, you will fall into the Kalasutra hell, where black lines will be drawn on your body, which the hell guards will use to cut you with fiery saws and sharp axes. You will remain there for 12,960,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Kalasutra hell, you will fall into the Hahava hell, where you will never find respite from the cold, constantly lamenting your pain. You will remain there for 1,816,800,000,000 years.
Once you exit the Hahava hell, you will fall into the Sanjiva hell, where you will have molten metal be dropped on you, where you will be sliced into pieces, where other beings will relentlessly attack you. You will remain there for 1,620,000,000,000 years. Once you exit the Sanjiva hell, you will fall into the Atata hell, where the cold is so great, with no relief from it, that you will perpetually shiver from the frost. You will remain there for 90,840,000,000 years. Once you exit the Atata hell, you will fall into the Nirarbuda hell, where blizzards will raise blisters on your body and then burst them, leaving you covered in frozen blood and pus. You will remain there for 4,542,000,000 years.
Finally, once you exit the Nirarbuda hell, you will fall into the Arbuda hell, where you will lie naked and alone with perpetual blizzards blistering your body. You will remain there for 227,100,000 years.
However, because your path is currently so vile, the bad karma so great, once you exit the Arbuda hell, you will not be reborn as an animal. No, you will fall into the Nirarbuda hell, and go through the entire sequence in reverse order. Once you have completed the course and spent 3,397,386,240,000,000,000 years in the Avici hell again, you will follow the sequence again in forward order.
Then, once you exit the Arbuda hell for the second time, you will be reborn as a slug. You will be squished and squashed and eaten by all sorts of creatures. After a thousand lifetimes of being a slug, you will be reborn as a fish. You will be eaten by other fish, die of diseases, and get caught by fishermen. After a thousand lifetimes of being a fish, you will be reborn as a bird. You will be a poor hunter, constantly starving, and you will be constantly hunted down. After a thousand lifetimes of being a bird, you will be reborn as a lion. You will never have children, you will always be diseased, and men will kill you for your fur.
After a thousand lifetimes of being a lion, you will be reborn as a hungry ghost. You will wander the realm, searching in vain for fulfillment. After a thousand lifetimes of being a hungry ghost, you will be reborn as a titan. You will constantly be in conflict with other titans, and you will be weak and never win.
Finally, after a thousand lifetimes of being a titan, you will be reborn as a human. At this point you will be in much the same spot as you are now, having burned off all the bad karma your actions are currently generating, and you'll have another shot of attaining Full Awakening. What you do in that lifetime will determine whether you do another course of hells, or whether you attain the greatest and most valuable treasure that any being in any realm could ever hope to attain.
Please, James, spare yourself the trouble of going through all that and correct your path now.
Cheers,
- Claudiu, the Ultimate, Unsurpassed, Extreme Tathagata
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Jane Laurel Carrington - 2014-04-24 16:06:58 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I would gladly endure all of that rather than be forced to spend my morning dealing with paper clutter.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-24 16:23:13 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Jane Laurel Carrington:
I would gladly endure all of that rather than be forced to spend my morning dealing with paper clutter.
Being the Tathagata I have also seen, with the divine eye, a set of previously never-seen-before hells.
- The Paper-Clutter Hell: You have to constantly clean up paper clutter. As soon as you finish, more paper clutter appears. If you are too slow or you file things incorrectly, you get stabbed with a burning giant paperclip. Duration: as long as it would take to straighten out a multinational corporation's entire stock of paper clips if you were to straighten out one clip every 100 years.
- The Slow-Internet Hell: You need to use the internet to do work or to watch a video. It's just fast enough that you have hope it'll work, yet so slow that it drives you insane. Every day you spend five hours on the line with tech support which keep telling you to restart your modem. It never helps. Duration: As long as it would take to download all videos ever created on a 1 kilobyte/second connection.
- The Long-Line Hell: You wait on a giant line that only moves once an hour. The line is one block long after which it rounds the corner. When you finally round the corner, there's simply another one-block line which winds around a corner. You never arrive. Duration: The time it would take to serve a coffee to every living person on earth if a coffee is only served once every thousand years.
- The DMV Hell: You are at the DMV to renew your license. You spend the entire duration of this hell waiting on lines, getting bounced between different stations, filling out paperwork, all the while the employees are rude and belittle your intelligence for not knowing the byzantine bureaucracy, which changes every hour. Duration: The amount of time it would take every person on earth to complete every procedure the DMV is capable of at one DMV office.
- The Don't-Know-What-to-Eat Hell: You are perpetually sort of hungry. You have an infinitely long delivery menu but not a single one of the options is appealing to you. Whenever you finally settle for something, they either don't pick up, or they never deliver your order. Duration: The amount of time it would take for one restaurant with poor customer service to deliver their most complicated dish to every person on earth.
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James Yen - 2014-04-24 16:36:33 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
So to be completely honest, I have no idea what the fuck is going on.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem - 2014-04-24 16:53:35 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James Yen:
So to be completely honest, I have no idea what the fuck is going on.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
Maybe you shouldn't stop. You're really good at it. You consistently get a lot of attention and replies, time and time again. Do you enjoy it? If you do and you could come up with some way to monetize it then you'd be set.
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Psi Phi - 2014-04-24 17:05:47 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James Yen:
So to be completely honest, I have no idea what the fuck is going on.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
James, you do know what is going on, "you" is just mental formations of neurons, many of these neuron cells have been replaced many times over, they die and regrow, following old patterns and new patterns. The you that has ever posted here before is irrevocably dissolved back into the universe, and a new you has regrown, following your new pattern blueprint, based upon previous causes and conditions. The path is a gradual path, as you know, you are changing, we all are always changing. The thing to remember is that without practice one will stagnate and slide backwards, and to remember that with practice one may stagnate or move forward.
Ahh! Now I am trolling ! hahahaha
Grok out
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Felipe C. - 2014-04-24 17:25:40 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
James Yen:
So to be completely honest, I have no idea what the fuck is going on.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
I also don't know how to stop lying/trolling. It's probably compulsive on my part.
Maybe you shouldn't stop. You're really good at it. You consistently get a lot of attention and replies, time and time again. Do you enjoy it? If you do and you could come up with some way to monetize it then you'd be set.
Yeah, after all, you know what they say: there's only now. So, ask yourself "what can I do to be the best (worst?) troll I can possibly be right now?"
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Eric M W - 2014-04-25 00:05:35 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
James, your concerns are valid but I'm not sure I follow you.
James Yen:
The Dharma Overground is based upon the premise that if one sits down and meditates, one will reach Awakening.
This premise is flawed, and false, now I'm not saying meditation is bad or even unnecessary. Rather I'm pinpointing and criticizing the notion that one's intention, view, speech, actions and livelihood have no effect on where one goes.
This premise is flawed, and false, now I'm not saying meditation is bad or even unnecessary. Rather I'm pinpointing and criticizing the notion that one's intention, view, speech, actions and livelihood have no effect on where one goes.
First of all, the Dho is a conglomerate of practitioners from varying traditions and backgrounds, it is problematic to say that there is a unified "view" on anything.
Second of all, the eightfold path is a good teaching, but I think the traditional way of summing it up into three trainings is more to the point. The first training is morality-- livelihood, actions, intent, etc. The second is concentration-- jhanas, one-pointedness of mind, powers, etc. The third is insight-- vipassana and ultimate wisdom.
You probably know all this already, but I think it's useful to reiterate. Now, if we are good with morality, we have minds free of negative states and lives conducive to meditation and spiritual pursuits. This makes the latter two trainings much, much easier. So, your concern is valid in a sense, but I don't understand why you have that concern in the first place, because as far as I can tell, no one around here is saying that living well is unnecessary.
*shrugs*
Eric
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Not Tao - 2014-04-25 02:06:00 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Jane Laurel Carrington:
I would gladly endure all of that rather than be forced to spend my morning dealing with paper clutter.
Jane, that paper clutter causes you so many problems, I'm betting you get a lot of mindfulness practice in at work. >_>
I think that the flaw in that basic statement is that the DhO is not anything resembling a uniform entity, but is instead a community of loosely aligned people sharing some basic views and inclinations but who otherwise are extremely diverse in their practices, views, conceptualizations, teachers, goals, attainments, talents, abilities, weaknesses, and the like.
I've been lurking here a few months, which I think can give someone a distorted view of this place. Since I started posting, everyone has been very friendly and helpful, and there really are a lot of differing opinions. It's changed my view of the place, being part of the community.
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Chris M - 2014-04-25 09:55:58 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
James, I can pin you down, because I am the Tathagata. By encompassing your mind with my mind, I have determined that on the dissolution of your body, after death, you will reappear in a state of deprivation. ...
Thanks for the comic relief Beoman. I'm not sure if there was meant to be a more serious point to your post because I couldn't get past the belly-laughs ... very funny!
Eric M W:
... Second of all, the eightfold path is a good teaching, but I think the traditional way of summing it up into three trainings is more to the point. The first training is morality-- livelihood, actions, intent, etc. The second is concentration-- jhanas, one-pointedness of mind, powers, etc. The third is insight-- vipassana and ultimate wisdom. ...
Eric M W, not trying to nit-pick here, but you have some factors listed under the wrong categories/trainings. As the 8FNP is so central and foundational, it bears getting it right:
The Eightfold Path (ariya-magga)
Wisdom/Discernment (paÒÒa)
1. Wise or Right View/Understanding (samma-ditthi) ñ Knowledge of the Four Noble Truths
2. Wise or Right Intention/Resolve (samm·-sankappa) ñ Renunciation, Loving-kindness, Harmlessness
Virtue (sila)
3. Wise or Right Speech (samm·-v·c·) ñ abstaining from lying, malicious or divisive speech, abusive or harsh speech, and idle chatter
4. Wise or Right Action (samm·-kammanta) ñ abstaining from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct
5. Wise or Right Livelihood (samm·-·jÌva) ñ abstaining from dishonest and harmful means of livelihood
Concentration/Meditation (samadhi)
6. Wise or Right Effort (samma-vayama) ñ the effort of avoiding and overcoming unskillful qualities, and of developing and maintaining skillful qualities
7. Wise or Right Mindfulness (samma-sati) ñ The Four Foundations of Mindfulness
8. Wise or Right Concentration (samma-samadhi) ñ The Four Form Jhanas
Incidentally, you often see 8FNP listed in the order you outlined Eric, that is: Sila-->Samadhi-->Panna, but I think it helps to understand it in the order: Panna-->Sila-->Samadhi, because the first path factor (Wise/Right View) conditions all other factors of the path. Which essentially is the movement from Mind-->Actions-->Cultivation. That is: View & Intention influence Actions, which in turn influence our ability to gain greater stability in Samadhi.
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Jane Laurel Carrington - 2014-04-25 12:35:48 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
I also owe Beoman my thanks for the laugh. I've been in all of those new hells he brought to light, in one form or another.
And Chris, thanks for the clear exposition of the 8-fold path. I need a daily refresher, really, especially in the right speech area.
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Chris M - 2014-04-26 00:15:08 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Jane Laurel Carrington:
I need a daily refresher, really, especially in the right speech area.
I hear you Jane. I think right speech is the hardest, that and right intention/thought, the final filter of resolve, before it spews forth, sometimes ending in regret and remorse.
Right speech, such an important one too for forums!
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Michael A Speesler - 2014-04-28 19:38:08 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
To get back to your original point, I certainly think that actions, speech, etc. are extremely important as well as sitting in terms of Awakening. I don't claim to be fully awakened by any means, but I have found, and I am speaking only from my own personal experiences, that my sitting affects all the other aspects of my life. I think if one sits well and acts out in anger, their internal experience will be different than one who doesn't.
By sitting, we create a less reactive mind, and therefore will be less likely to act, speak, etc. in reactive ways. If we're not sitting with the intention to see reality clearly so we can be our best when off the cushion, then what's it all for?
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John Wilde - 2014-04-28 20:54:36 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Michael A Speesler:
If we're not sitting with the intention to see reality clearly so we can be our best when off the cushion, then what's it all for?
Indeed, I'd never separate the two. For me, the clearest seeing is the deepest satisfaction is the best source of mutual benefit.... so the aim of practice is to see clearly enough to live well, and to live well enough to see clearly, and so on.
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. Jake . - 2014-04-29 17:30:44 - RE: The fatal flaw of the Dharma Overground.
Nicely put John.
You encasulate well the non-linearity of 'Path' as a lived phenomenon. The feedback of each facet (speach, overt behavior, thoughts/views, insight, intentions...) into each other facet is incredibly complex. The feedback between living beings who inhabit from different perspectives multiplies that individual complexity by another infinite degree.
In a sense, 'Path' is just life, everyday life, with these non-linear dynamics becoming explicit. Formal sitting practice is a nice situation for cutting back on variables to simplify experience and thus catch clear glimpses of these dynamics *so that* we can embody them in our being-with-others. That embodiment and actualization of insight in turn clarifies the insights, and allows our bodies and minds to absorb their significance on deeper implicit levels-- thus making possible yet deeper, more comprehensive embodiment.
Trying to seperate 'insight' from life, from living well within ourselves and amongst others, is an odd project indeed!
