Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud) [Pawe? K] [MIGRATE]

Migration 6.2 Daemon, modified 6 Years ago.

Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud) [Pawe? K] [MIGRATE]

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Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud) [Pawe? K]


Pawe? K - 2013-12-01 22:48:03 - Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

I changed name of this topic to practice log because its what it really is
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It hit me today that some mind states that I can enter are maybe more standard and are actually vispassana jhanas. But I would like experts to clarify that. I can enter any of them quite fast, in a matter of seconds.

First is one pointed with feeling of concentration of viewed objects that appear not very precise, rather coarse and big, like sensations were more 'flashing full screen' than placed anywhere specific. 

Second is more surface oriented with accent on 2d shapes of viewed objects, it is very plesurable now though it not always had been. I remember almost psychosis like creating two dimensional shapes out of evertyhing in this state. It interleaved with burst of pleasure. Sensations are still coarse, not very precise.

Third is kinda normal I guess and very good. It also had caused issues in the past making everything look 3d-ish, even flat images eg. on monitor screen or even ordinary text that normally doesn't seem to have any depth. It is kinda my baseline state I always try to be in, especially lately when it doesn't cause any issues and is pretty joyous. Not as much as second though. Sensations are neither coarse nor precise, just normal.

Fourth is different, its like everything was viewed from distance and concentrated on even more depth than before. Whereas third was three dimensional fourht seem to have one more dimension though it is hard to tell where is it. Just like clarity got a boost, now sensations are very sharp and precise and viewed from beggining to end. It is kinda dark-nightish in a sense but I can as well make it more like in second state and then irritating factor will be less visible.

Next four stages I have much less practice with

Fifth seem similar to fourth but kinda closer and less Dark Nightis, like focus changed to something else that I will describe in the end.

Sixth is definitely white and bright and pleasurable. Nothing exceptional about this state except maybe sensations are even more formless.

Seventh and eight I cannot say much about because I kinda don't feel them much. I feel I activate something but pretty weak so I consider myself not having those mastered yet.

Apart of vispassana jhanas there are three more interesting states. One is what I call ordinary no-self that is pretty much 'everything runs by itself' mode where I never eg. move my hands, they always do it by itself even though I am moving them. Informations about self doing that are absent from it. Ok, you got me there it is not so much interesting ;-) 

Next is combination of self and this no-self. This state have this quality that sizes of my body and all perceived objects (of mind or physical) seems most right and kinda override what vispassana jhanas can screw up, even 4th (forced to this state) can't make sensations smaller, thought sensations seems to flow and disappear in place where they would normally be in 4th visp-jhana. Also in this state it is obvious that actions are took by no-self and self is just an trailing sensation that interpret what happens so that it would appear as doing of a self but with that trailing it is actually influencing decisions. Not making them but influencing nevertheless.

Last state is much more formless but I doubt it is normal formless vispassana jhana from 5 to 8 because entrance is different and it from previous state as formless version of it. It feels kinda fluffy like nothing is really felt like it always is. In this state I feel close to my real neuron-network based nature. There are kinda tree-like structures that don't move at all but I don't see them, just know they are there. If I were to really look I would already trigger those structures and make them react which would be to change in one way or another and cause myself pain when done too strong (making impernamence and suffering aspects of 3C kinda obvious). This state is ok but not blissful by any means, just warm and pretty ok-ish. Probably best state if I were to lay and die ; ) I actually reside in this state pretty often lately as it feels very clear and workable in day-to-day basis and all clinging/aversion based urges are clearly seen and cannot be easily fulfilled, only dissolving them into more tree-like structures works. Self in it is tree-like structure that feels pretty much the same as everything which in turns make no-self part of 3C obvious. 

So if anyone have experience in those I'd like names of those states in Buddhist (or any other) tradition.
Also Daniel Ingram wrote 3rd vispassana jhana is DN-ish but it tottally doesn't feel that way and actually what I experience is that DN and other process of insight states are quality by itself and any state can suck at DN and all are great during A&P, etc.

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Pawe? K - 2013-12-06 16:36:08 - RE: Are those vispassana jhanas? Clarification about naming

I found out that those eight modes are different manifestations of chakras eg. when I use 4th mode I get strong sensation in my heart chakra up to physical pain exactly in the middle of my chest. Correlation of those modes with chakras explain why they are linearly aligned in my head-space and some of their properties that match with chakras. I practiced stimulating and experiencing chakras few years ago and I counted 8 chakra consciousnesses, eight is above my head and represents nothingness aspect of self. Now those new modes of perception I mentioned are probably no-self aspect of chakras and closely related to vispassana jhanas.

[quote='Wiki']Mahasi's student, Sayadaw U Pandita describes four vipassan? jhanas in his meditation text "In this very life":
- The meditator first explores his body, then his mind, discovering the three characteristics. The first jhana consists in seeing these points and in the presence of vitakka and vicara. Phenomena reveal themselves as appearing and ceasing.
- In the second jhana, the practice seems effortless. Vitaka and vicara both disappear.
- In the third jhana, piti, the joy, disappears too: there is only happiness (sukha) and concentration.
- The fourth jhana arises, characterised by purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. The practice leads to direct knowledge. The comfort disappears because the dissolution of all phenomena is clearly visible. The practice will show every phenomenon as unstable, transient, disenchanting. The desire of freedom will take place.
it is very precise in how I perceive first four modes so I rather believe that vispassana jhanas are related to chakras than there is no relation at all

In those modes what was worrying was that they were alone without more self-like partners. Now that this is solved I know what to do which would be the same thing I did with coarse presentation of 'self' and 'no-self'. I'll post here if something interesting is born out of it.

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Pawe? K - 2014-02-01 19:49:54 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

little update
1. It seems I unlocked 3rd chakra much more than it was before by 'disabling' bliss/pleasure I was feeling which had strong identification aspect to it

it disappeared and underneath it were simpler sensations that could be characterized as either pleasurable or pain, though mostly pleasurable. Those were in large quantities, yellow, slightly flowery taste/smell, rather 'warm'. Now 3rd chakra can be activated in a way that feels like drawing mind substance (or energy or whatever) from it just like I could do with 1st and 2nd chakras already. For comparison 4th is not even close to being open, it hurts from using it and 4th chakra mode still is harsh and generally not very pleasant

2. Had realization that various spaces and sides in mind can be 'put together' in totally new place disidentified with any of those things/objects. It was very nice realization in how it worked but kinda lacking still as nature of those spaces and sides was not really clear. Anyhow bare staying there was making me genuinely happy. This is imho being reborn in pure abode.

3. Then had realization that all this are just visualizations. By all I mean everything, every mode of perception but not only my plethora of modes and various 'artificial' feelings but everything and it always was that way. I continue to make pure abodes and it is so easy to do so as long as I see this visualization nature of everything which is pretty easy being skilled at visualization stuff. But what is interresting is that I do not make anything, just seeign everything as visualization place me in this super sweet and joyful non-space from #2

4. Tried to 'integrate' sensation of 'fear' so placed it withing this space in which I was (actually still am as of writing this post) experiencing everything. So visualization of fear was put on visualization of everything on visualized screen. It was super easy thing to do cause fear was already there to take cause there was 6th nana going on. But the thing is that it didn't blend so easily and dragged me down to DN . It was like trying to eat poison. Neither it nor anything around it wasn't liking this situation very much. It had it's distinctive dark greenish color which later changed to more sky blue and become like chillingly cold. It have it's graphical representation (something like 3d icon) which was pretty clearly seen, not perfectly but good enough to see though I am not perfectly sure what it represented to talk about it now. It was represented in various places, quantities and numbers, the smaller it was the larger in quantity showing something about mind screen. It seems screen is both space around me, in my mind and body itself. I studied it's effects on body, feelings, perception and awareness. Obviously it was mental sensation so this aspect was covered too and obviously I tried to equanimitize it so it blend. It kinda did partially but neither my field was ready for it nor this object so I called it off out of my experience to it's own dimension with simple method I was training myself for some time. It is just moving sensation in direction sensation choose and then back where it was. I have not reached 100% hit rate with it, especially strong pain is too strong for me but this time it worked nicely. Some parts remained but those were parts that were integrated and which are my way to communicate with this object.

Interesting property of this object is that it make reality like many times more real but not only reality that is real but everything. Eg. watching music videos in small window was feeling like being pretty much that and when reduced immersion to see myself watching music video it felt like I could pretty much insert my hand into monitor like it was some kind of teleport or smt. Interesting quality of perception which I call upon. Not so strongly but slight coloration is possible to make reality or movies seem more real which is good cause all this visualization stuff make everything way to artificial sometimes.

Anyhow, I somehow feel that this experience changed relations in my mind to more accepting and equaimous. Not only it feels better on surface but deep down too, like some barrier was reduced. Not destroyed but reduced still. I fear though that I will have to go through with it fully for complete enlightenment...

My next goal is unlocking 4th chakra as it is mess right now, much more mess than 3rd ever was... emoticon

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Dream Walker - 2014-02-01 21:03:58 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

Pawe? K:

My next goal is unlocking 4th chakra as it is mess right now, much more mess than 3rd ever was... emoticon

I use metta to work the 3rd and 4th chakras. Happiness in the stomach and loving kindness for the heart. I start with words but then move to the actual sensations. I grow the sensation with each inbreath. I still have to be careful not to overwork the heart as it will get a bit ragged around the edges. Play with the flow rate, quality and pipe size of the love. 
Great thread
~D

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Pawe? K - 2014-02-17 21:16:53 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

metta and loving kindness...  I constantly forget about those. Thanks for reminder emoticon

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Update
I worked with heart and next thing I knew was this super strong feeling and perception like I went back at least ten years in mind time. Synesthesia (feeling colors) almost inexistent and in its place deeply infused self. My intent preceding that was to feel world through heart. Now I know that my heart is not quite on the same page as rest of me. I want powering this state up and it changed naturally to my baseline perception in about two days.

I also had some feelings that came from heart that are compatible with self-less default perception mode as its contribution to it. I knew those are from heart cause it is from self I feel being with heart. Each chakra have its own self feeling associated with it and when it is kinda perceived self-lessly it radiate colored and very pleasurable light (maybe it's what Daniel meant by luminosity).

Another interesting things lately was that I found out that from specific state which is probably 3rd jhana it is possible to directly perceive nadi channel just like one would perceive hand with body scanning. So I can go down where it begin just by staying on it and going further where it leads me. Kinda strange perspective cause it feels like going to your own intestents cause those things feel organic, just like body parts but without feel of skin on them so even more flesh-like emoticon 

It would seem kinda pointless to do so cause it is impossible to enter this channel or so anything at all except try to manipulate something from from outside. But after switching to 4-jhana it is possible to do cause goes through itself in that state and its easy to enter it and it is felt as strong sensation of vibration. Definitely will try this one on heart chakra but maybe I first try some metta before I take out big guns

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Pawe? K - 2014-02-28 22:37:45 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

Yesterday I was playing with various stones/crystals. Each one have its own specific taste and other various properties like eg. ribbons, explosions around it, explode internally, just strong sensations of various types, etc I would take new stone and just hold in my hands and especially in left hand I would start to feel it radiating ... very bizarre thing to experience.

Today I was most of the day just trying to disable myself as much as to feeling of my surroundings were possible just as is with stones. I felt as close to Brahman/God/universe as I could because I was it. It was not unity but obvious fact about nature of things and answer to my investigation and contemplation of this topic.

Then I did some noting, some more feeling surroundings and had click, blip like consciousness loss. Unlike other fruitions there were no afterglow of any sort but it felt stronger like nothing from old consciousness remained. New one that appeared have nothing to do with equanimity I was experiencing. Its as sharp difference as can be. Perception too changed and visual changes were one of the first things I notices. Others was sound and sensation in everythingness new consciousness arising, kinda like being abruptly awakened. I was feeling awake before and after it though actually less awake after...

Like I said, there were no afterglow. New consciousness felt as old self centered one which itself isn't as bad but compared to being part of space in universe is feeling like dry toast. Its kinda reverse to what Daniel is describing in MCTB when it comes to afterglos.

It is though mostly in accordance with how I always felt fruitions:
1. new consciousness taking place of old with specific sensation accompanying it, especially if it is kinda taking longer time 
2. new consciousness being clueless about essence of what previous one was doing and why. It know what was done but not deep enough like it was never really done, at least not with this new consciousness.
3. it have to find its own self-realization and its own EQ, its own pure abode. Old insights can be done but don't feel like answer to this new consciousness. Help yes but not answer, something have to be modified, deepened maybe... I have to went even deepen into rabbit hole... now I felt stoness and space. Wonder what will be next in my crazy-land jhana emoticon

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Dream Walker - 2014-03-03 19:36:56 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

Pawe? K:
Then I did some noting, some more feeling surroundings and had click, blip like consciousness loss. Unlike other fruitions there were no afterglow of any sort but it felt stronger like nothing from old consciousness remained. New one that appeared have nothing to do with equanimity I was experiencing. Its as sharp difference as can be. Perception too changed and visual changes were one of the first things I notices. Others was sound and sensation in everythingness new consciousness arising, kinda like being abruptly awakened. I was feeling awake before and after it though actually less awake after...

Like I said, there were no afterglow. New consciousness felt as old self centered one which itself isn't as bad but compared to being part of space in universe is feeling like dry toast. Its kinda reverse to what Daniel is describing in MCTB when it comes to afterglos.
Since my last baseline shift the fruitions have not had any afterglow. The vipassana  jhanas feel much more subtle now. It kinda feels like review and I am still doing old territory or maybe this is just the way it is now...we shall see.
Pawe? K:

It is though mostly in accordance with how I always felt fruitions:
1. new consciousness taking place of old with specific sensation accompanying it, especially if it is kinda taking longer time 
2. new consciousness being clueless about essence of what previous one was doing and why. It know what was done but not deep enough like it was never really done, at least not with this new consciousness.
3. it have to find its own self-realization and its own EQ, its own pure abode. Old insights can be done but don't feel like answer to this new consciousness. Help yes but not answer, something have to be modified, deepened maybe... I have to went even deepen into rabbit hole... now I felt stoness and space. Wonder what will be next in my crazy-land jhana emoticon

Try going outside and looking out into the distance and opening your visual field to include everything into one thing and quiet the mind. I do this a lot nowdays. Just grooving on how reality looks without very much mind chatter to obscure it. Trying to stay in the now.
Good luck,
~D

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Pawe? K - 2014-03-17 22:05:17 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

it definitely was some baseline perception shift to strata of mind related to perception of the past. Learned some trick there, found out that there is hole in place where there should impenetrable impression of self and initiated merging process with what was on that side which was something that looked like night sky with random fluctuation in there or reflection of water. Dived in completely and when I regained consciousness of that mind (the one I had before blip) I initiated merging process by trying to perceive both states at once. There was process of insight like process with all stages clearly perceived especially fear and disgust and from both sides of this merging. After it calmed I send intent from both sides at once to switch to something different and moment later color palette (their looks and feeling) changed to something completely different from any of those states and integration feels complete. I was also trying to send integration intent from one side and it was failure resulting in some unstable state which felt more like two states glued together and that wanted to separate on slightest thought about how it was before. Now it doesn't seem to be anything left to even be able to separate, like two states disappeared and new one appeared.

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Pawe? K - 2014-04-28 11:36:53 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

it is possible to see into right-hemisphere mind and even see if some body part movement comes from left or right mind, similarly it is possible to asses if sensations are coming from left or right processing route. Eg. seeing human being I notice that part of understanding about it comes from left and some from right.

both have their selves but kinda not at the same time so its either left-self or right-self. I can try to force both at the same time but it feels like stressful thing to do, to the point of feeling pain in my head and near neck. Other possibility is to concentrate on no-self aspects and it feels much better.

also there is kinda mind operation of changing 'phase' of a sensation so that it can immediately change from 'being' and causing dukkha to kinda be even-less than not-being and causing bliss, kinda like making sensation negative. To do this I have kinda zoom-in to it mentally and it have to be stabilized and not 'repelling' everything which I use 'mental brushing' or 'mental sandpaper' to do. Usually it is in specific part of head on its surface and I can usually see it visually represented as some king badly drawn oscilloscope graphs, sometimes fancy 3D graphs (also badly drawn with least possible line count - my mind is kinda lazy I guess...) when sensation is on surface eg. some kind of pain, though its always to go as specific as possible and chose this single 'leading' selfing sensation which is like very high frequency sound/hiss

BTW. if someone have never worked with anything resembling what I describe it might sound like I was crazy. I assure all of those unfortunate fools that am not crazy but people who do not hear/feel/see 'selfing' or their hemispheres definitely are. To work with mind without inner eyes and ears and abilities to actually change something is like going through the street without eyes and ears and... without legs... so growing all those is most important to get to other side.

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Dream Walker - 2014-04-28 16:33:11 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

Pawe? K:
BTW. if someone have never worked with anything resembling what I describe it might sound like I was crazy. .
This is merely one of the reasons to view you as crazy....and is why I love reading your posts so much. It is always interesting how and what you are doing that is so different from the rest.
Note crazy, note crazy
emoticon

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Pawe? K - 2014-04-28 20:02:06 - RE: Pawe? K practice log (mostly thinking outloud)

at my A&P I had realization that I had native mind mode which was lost due to me being affraid of its bigness, a lot of sensations, a lot of possibilities. I thought of that small mind mode with less stuff to deal with would be better for me... and I lost my native mode only to find some time after that that unused functions get weak and I have to train stuff that I could already have if I wasn't a little afraid mind cry-baby...

It was not anatta as anatta is already oversimplification on top of which there is created concept of self. Its ugly abomination as it doesn't really point to native mode but to itself. So even anatta which is seeing stuff doing itself is closer to native mode than self even if in native mode stuff don't do itself but everything is seen as act of will, something self try to simulate. 

I have something resembling somehow my native mode but its still just crap nowhere excellence of what it should be as it is full of 'small mode' traits. Note that this small mode I talk is not all that bad. It is actually working better than expected. If it was less working then we would not need enlightenment. That is probably this 'human condition' that Richard dude from AF is raving about and Actual Freedom is probably what I consider my native mode.

Generally I am building skills to visualize my own mind. I do strange techniques like allowing mind to draw lines on objects that represent how mind process stuff like eg. images. Like flat surface have those strange patterns on them that seem to be what we actually fix our eyes to when we look at flat surface. Its like we were looking at something but nothing in particular and when trying to mode eyes it have to jump to another place some distance away, right? and when trying to jump less that that mind have to do something, and then its possible to jump smaller steps, right? its those patterns =) it also enable me to see what mind imagine there is when some objects part is hidden eg. its back or we see only part of object. It is drawn too but with different kind of lines, not very detailed or accurate and it is not fixed, it kinda fluctuate, just so that there won't be sensation of glaring emptiness but not to create sensation of knowing either. Hidden parts of object that I know have dangerous places are drawn in scary way with scary colors and more accurately than those of not important not dangerous things.

enough craziness on DhO for today, I already used way more words than necessary, should say 'mu' instead =)

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