Nana #1 Mind and Body

Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/9/14 7:44 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Florian 7/10/14 4:38 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/10/14 1:10 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/13/14 11:43 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/14/14 1:38 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/14/14 3:33 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eric B 7/12/14 2:24 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Florian 7/12/14 3:44 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/12/14 10:04 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/12/14 10:16 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Florian 7/13/14 9:18 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/13/14 11:56 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Florian 7/13/14 3:37 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/13/14 6:28 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Florian 7/14/14 1:33 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/14/14 1:54 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/14/14 3:23 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/14/14 5:11 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eva Nie 7/14/14 10:35 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Jeff Grove 7/15/14 5:31 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 5:50 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 5:50 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 6:42 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 6:59 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 7:09 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 7:14 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 7:20 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 7:37 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Nikolai . 7/15/14 4:40 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eva Nie 7/15/14 7:46 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/28/14 2:01 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/28/14 1:01 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/31/14 11:12 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Noting Monkey 8/1/14 1:12 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 8/1/14 7:35 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Jeff Grove 8/1/14 8:02 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 8/3/14 12:30 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Jeff Grove 8/3/14 9:35 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 8/9/14 7:57 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eva Nie 8/10/14 3:11 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Noting Monkey 8/1/14 10:49 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eric M W 7/10/14 9:23 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Noting Monkey 7/13/14 12:42 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/13/14 2:28 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eric M W 7/13/14 7:05 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/13/14 11:45 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eric M W 7/13/14 5:43 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/13/14 6:31 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eric M W 7/13/14 7:01 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body James 7/13/14 7:20 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Noting Monkey 7/13/14 9:45 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Jeff Grove 7/13/14 8:51 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Florian 7/14/14 1:38 AM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Jake 7/13/14 5:44 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Eric M W 7/13/14 5:52 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Jake 7/13/14 7:32 PM
RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body Noting Monkey 7/13/14 9:19 PM
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/9/14 7:44 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/9/14 7:44 PM

Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 22 Join Date: 6/10/14 Recent Posts
I've been noticing for a good time now that in the discussion of the maps, there is very much appreciation for nanas 5 until fruition, but very little mention, at least when it comes to walking people through their practice, of the territory encompassed by just mind & body.

I'm wondering if I'm wrong about this and just managed to not see it all this time. It seems to me that there is ample territory to the first nana, and that more people are 'naturals' with this stage, and therefore it sort of 'goes without saying'. 

What's everyone elses ideas?
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 7/10/14 4:38 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/10/14 4:36 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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James:
It seems to me that there is ample territory to the first nana, and that more people are 'naturals' with this stage, and therefore it sort of 'goes without saying'.


Interesting observation. I know a few people who got into the first ñana in childhood.

This is also the case with me: I have memories of playing mind games at bedtime when I wasn't tired but was sent to bed nonetheless. The most vivid memory is of visualizing the letters of a short word and simultaneously trying to "hear" how it sounded, and the shift into first ñana was when the word and letters were suddenly "out there", and had lost their meaning somehow. I got so "good" at this that with time, any word I'd repeat mentally for a short time would "get broken" (as I called it). I also have memories of getting into mind&body via smells, when we were on home leave to Germany (we were living in South Africa at the time) and there were a lot of unfamiliar smells around. With smells, the "out there" quality was very weird, involving sensations in my sinuses that I called "splintering" (like watching a glass object burst, but not visual or auditory, and the perception was localized in the frontal sinuses somehow).

Since I did mind games and relaxation exercises and guided metitations and religious devotional practices all throughout my childhood and adolescence, I was, as you say, very familiar with the territory when I came across the maps.

Maybe the DhO being self-selecting to a large degree, people here really tend to treat this one as almost not worth mentioning, like you say.

More descriptions?

Cheers,
Florian
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/10/14 1:10 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/10/14 1:10 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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To be fair, I haven't participated in the DHO throughout my practice, but I was at other sites.

I practiced a lot, really quite a bit, and I didn't have appreciation for the territory I was in. I was very demanding of myself, for good reason.

In the last year, I've made significant progress, from which you can understand why I needed a change so badly:

I had a strange insight with the digits on my left hand where I felt a strangely strong vibration that stayed off cushion for about a week accompanied by thoughts of unpleasant horror movie like gore, slowly lessening throughout the week.

Really unpleasant sort of libidinous tensions in the lower abdomen

Really heavy wrenching weight in my solar plexus

Strange unpleasant cold hollow vomitting sensation in my chest

Tension throughout the left side of my head from the left side of the tongue, through the teeth, into the eye and temple, in the jaw, and around the ear and back of head. It was constantly tensed for who knows, more than a decade, I'm 27 now, and I think it qualifies as body dismorphia. Reason being I had a bone condition and couldn't walk straight until I was 17, and had other things bone condition-wise with the left side of my body that made it difficult to orient, I just dissociated.

Serious tension in my right hip begetting lots and lots of anxiety. The problem was related to my bone condition that I had a spike of bone on the femoral neck on the front that my hip muscles had to stretch over.

Weird super heavy pain that came up during meditation for about two months after I had a surgery to fix the hip. It seemed to come out of a general sort of exoskeleton of like 'rough perception' of my leg and stretched from my hip down to my ankle. 

Strange airy sensation of anxiety in my left foot, it felt sort of like the nerves never really grew fully or something like that.

Body-wide anxiety and aching and heaviness, slowly getting lesser and lesser, eventually feeling okay just being in my body.


So those are all the important ones. Before those, during very serious and looking back basically strenuous practice, I did encounter some really tough aches in my upper back, but other than that just a couple brief and non permanent a&p experiences.

I wonder what it would have been like if I had appreciation for the territory, if I knew that basically some things like those were going to happened. Instead it feels like I may have just wasted thousands of hours of time. 
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 7/10/14 9:23 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/10/14 9:23 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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My first experience of Mind and Body, that I remember, was when I first got into meditation. I was trying a mantra and basically just being really frustrated about not being able to stay concentrated, but I kept at it because everyone always talked about how amazing meditation was. One day, The mantra suddenly became very clear, and my mind was suddenly quieter than before. The mantra was now "out there," but I didn't have the conceptual framework to fully understand or describe what had happened.

I also used to experience it quite a bit when I switched to anapanasati a few months later, but again, I didn't have any conceptual frameworks to understand what it was. All I knew was that the breath became much crisper and more solid, and my mind was quieter. Even when I read about the progress of insight in MCTB, I read about Mind and Body and thought, "Huh?" because I didn't fully comprehend what it entailed. 

Most of the heavy lifting is done in the early nanas and I think navigating them is incredibly important. A&P tends to take care of itself, the dark night goes all the way to Re-Observation whether you want it to or not, and Equanimity has its own traps but it tends to be very pleasant. In many ways, moving through the nanas 1-3 is the most important part of a meditators career.
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Eric B, modified 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 2:24 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 2:22 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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[quote=Florian Wep
]
This is also the case with me: I have memories of playing mind games at bedtime when I wasn't tired but was sent to bed nonetheless. The most vivid memory is of visualizing the letters of a short word and simultaneously trying to "hear" how it sounded, and the shift into first ñana was when the word and letters were suddenly "out there", and had lost their meaning somehow. I got so "good" at this that with time, any word I'd repeat mentally for a short time would "get broken" (as I called it). I also have memories of getting into mind&body via smells, when we were on home leave to Germany (we were living in South Africa at the time) and there were a lot of unfamiliar smells around. With smells, the "out there" quality was very weird, involving sensations in my sinuses that I called "splintering" (like watching a glass object burst, but not visual or auditory, and the perception was localized in the frontal sinuses somehow).



When I was a child sometimes I would lay in bed and repeat a word.  Two syllable words were best.  One I remember was "table".  I would repeat it mentally until it became what I called "not a word anymore".  I asked my mother "what do you call it when a word isn't a word anymore?". Which led to one of those sputtering conversations that teach you never to ask thing like that again.  This was probably when I was 7 or 8, and never did it after that age.  Since I started practicing as an adult i've often wondered what would have happened if I had kept doing that (stream entry by 4th grade? hehe).

I've never associated this with the 1st nana, just some increasing stae of concentration.  How does this fit into mind & body?  I don't get it.

Eric
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 3:44 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 3:41 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Eric B:
When I was a child sometimes I would lay in bed and repeat a word.  Two syllable words were best.  One I remember was "table".  I would repeat it mentally until it became what I called "not a word anymore".  I asked my mother "what do you call it when a word isn't a word anymore?". Which led to one of those sputtering conversations that teach you never to ask thing like that again.  This was probably when I was 7 or 8, and never did it after that age.  Since I started practicing as an adult i've often wondered what would have happened if I had kept doing that (stream entry by 4th grade? hehe).

I've never associated this with the 1st nana, just some increasing stae of concentration.  How does this fit into mind & body?  I don't get it.


Here's Daniel's description from MCTB Mind and Body: There is this sudden shift, and mental phenomena shift out away from the illusory sense of “the watcher” and are just out there in the world with the sensations of the other five sense doors. This is an important insight, as it shows us clearly and directly that we are not “our” mind or “our” body.

So that's how I understand this ñana / knowledge / insight to present itself in the case of mind objects like words. The watcher is made of words to the extent that it is a commentator, and when they shift out and away from the assumed watcher, they can't be used for purposes of watcher-maintenance any more. Since that quality is tied into the semantic field of every word, when it drops out of the picture, words seem "broken" or "not words any more".

With visualized mind objects, this ñana presents itself more straightforwardly, by interpreted as a sense of distance, an "out there" quality.

With the smell, I'm less sure, but other aspects of the experience fit in nicely with understanding it as mind & body.

Cheers,
Florian
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 10:04 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 10:02 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Well, back to the original topic about the maps evidently not containing or the discussion not representing the numerous shades of insight gotten in the first nana.

This was not just absent in the Pragmatic Dharma scene but also in traditional Buddhist scenes like Goenka and the folks at IMS. And it wasn't addressed by numerous people in the Shambhala lineage as well, in addition to a bona fide Tibetan ex-llama, now technically a layman. And a couple catholic Priests, and a handful of professional yoga teachers.

So I am sitting here like "really?" Is that really what happened?

I thought there would be some interest in this here at a DIY pragmatic dharma forum sort of founded off a book that attests to the value of knowledge about the maps, but no one has really responded like so. It's great to point out that Mind & Body is an important insight to obtain, but what about portraying it as it is?

I don't like to say this but talk about Not Making The Dharma Accesible? 
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 10:16 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/12/14 10:16 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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That being said, all those harshly won insights all came with the same type of phenomena as you three mention: taking on an "out there" just being quality.
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Noting Monkey, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 12:42 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 12:42 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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I agree with Florian that mind&body can arise very naturaly for people without meditation practice. 
It is important stage because without this there is no chance for the rest to arise as this is the first one.

Maybe people talk less about the first 3 stages because most of the meditators on a retreat hit the A&P and 
ones you hit A&P then you will cycle between A&P and EQ until you get frution.
So we spent definitaly more time in DN then in the first 3 stages so more to talk about. 
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 2:28 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 12:53 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Okay.

What about teaching people what they need to be taught, whatever that is? Shouldn't this be at least somewhat of a staple in the DIY meditation world?

Or, those people who need to hear it can just go wallow around for years until they figure it out?
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:05 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:05 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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If a meditator follows the instructions dililgently, paying bare attention to the present moment, they will progress through the stages of insight whether they know what they are or not, and whether they want to or not. 
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 9:18 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 9:16 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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James:
Well, back to the original topic about the maps evidently not containing or the discussion not representing the numerous shades of insight gotten in the first nana.

So I am sitting here like "really?" Is that really what happened?


I do not understand your question. Are you asking the other participants here whether they think what you describe is all first ñana stuff? Or are you asking whether first ñana stuff is really underrepresented in discussions here? I, and from what I gather the other participants, understood your original topic in the second sense.

I thought there would be some interest in this here at a DIY pragmatic dharma forum sort of founded off a book that attests to the value of knowledge about the maps, but no one has really responded like so. It's great to point out that Mind & Body is an important insight to obtain, but what about portraying it as it is?

I don't like to say this but talk about Not Making The Dharma Accesible?


Please re-state your question. You are obviously frustrated about something, but I really don't see what it is that you are saying here.

Cheers,
Florian
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 11:45 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 11:45 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Eric M W:
If a meditator follows the instructions dililgently, paying bare attention to the present moment, they will progress through the stages of insight whether they know what they are or not, and whether they want to or not. 


Oh really? 

Or is that not true, as my experience demonstrates. 

Maybe there are some cases where the stage actually needs to be set for the meditator so that they can practice appropriately. So they know what to do.

Saying they just need to pay bare attention to the present moment is an oversimplification that helps no one. 

I wasn't really frustrated when I wrote this, of course I think it blows how I may have wasted thousands of hours, but I am a little wowed now that you respond with that simple one liner like you didn't read or think about anything I wrote.

Its cases like where people are "Extremely Fucking Miserable" where the situation approaches "change or just kill themself".
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 11:56 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 11:56 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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I'm saying that the maps are under utilized in teaching of this stuff, bringing this up to see what people think, not just about "the discussion here". 

I'm bringing it up because I think its something important in teaching meditation that unbelievably to me was missed by almost every teacher I had except one (LUCKY?).

Evidently though it seems like the discussion here is not interested in teaching meditation but just doing meditation for their selves regardless of other people. 

It is a little confounding because some people get into meditation to address suffering, and then some people get into meditation to address even deeper suffering and then can't do it because there's no appreciation for talking about something that's pretty elementary, and they fail at it and then just go kill themselves or something, while the people who got into meditation who it worked for are just blissing out on jhanas and getting nirodha samapati and not thinking at all about how simple and easy it would have been to actually consider the situation of these evidently ungifted practitioners and tell them what they need instead of throwing everyone into an unexamined cookie cutter approach to no avail for these ungifted practitioners despite how the answer they need is just hanging around in plain sight the whole time.
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 3:37 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 3:35 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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James:
I'm saying that the maps are under utilized in teaching of this stuff, bringing this up to see what people think, not just about "the discussion here".


All right, so welcome to the DhO, where the maps, their application to practice and so on is a major topic.

I'm bringing it up because I think its something important in teaching meditation that unbelievably to me was missed by almost every teacher I had except one (LUCKY?).


Good teachers are hard to find, is that what you're saying?

Evidently though it seems like the discussion here is not interested in teaching meditation but just doing meditation for their selves regardless of other people.


The DhO is not an online course. There are no teachers here (taking students, in a teacher role). If you are after such things, you'll have to find them somewhere else. But if you practice meditation (alone or guided by a teacher) and like to discuss with like-minded people ("good spiritual friends" in Buddhist language), you will probably get a lot out of participating.

It is a little confounding because some people get into meditation to address suffering, and then some people get into meditation to address even deeper suffering and then can't do it because there's no appreciation for talking about something that's pretty elementary, and they fail at it and then just go kill themselves or something, while the people who got into meditation who it worked for are just blissing out on jhanas and getting nirodha samapati and not thinking at all about how simple and easy it would have been to actually consider the situation of these evidently ungifted practitioners and tell them what they need instead of throwing everyone into an unexamined cookie cutter approach to no avail for these ungifted practitioners despite how the answer they need is just hanging around in plain sight the whole time.


Sure, that's what a good teacher (whom you've found, going by your own words) can do for people. Are you just venting, or are you obliquely criticizing the DhO regulars for not being teachers in an online retreat center? I'm having difficulties understanding your posts in any other sense.

Cheers,
Florian
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 5:43 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 5:42 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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James:
Eric M W:
If a meditator follows the instructions dililgently, paying bare attention to the present moment, they will progress through the stages of insight whether they know what they are or not, and whether they want to or not. 


Oh really? 

Or is that not true, as my experience demonstrates. 

Maybe there are some cases where the stage actually needs to be set for the meditator so that they can practice appropriately. So they know what to do.

Saying they just need to pay bare attention to the present moment is an oversimplification that helps no one. 

I wasn't really frustrated when I wrote this, of course I think it blows how I may have wasted thousands of hours, but I am a little wowed now that you respond with that simple one liner like you didn't read or think about anything I wrote.

Its cases like where people are "Extremely Fucking Miserable" where the situation approaches "change or just kill themself".
I read everything you wrote. As for my experience, I made it all the way to nana #11, Equanimity, without knowing what the Progress of Insight was, and only having a crude understanding of Buddhism. In addition, stream entry occurs in many traditions outside of Buddhism, e.g. contemplative Christianity.

Meditators waste thousands of hours, or even their entire lives, all the time. They spin around lost in thought or try to work on their psychological baggage instead of examining the sensations that compose the present moment. It takes a lot of mental discipline to stay on the level of bare sensations for any length of time. Just because something is simple, doesn't mean it is easy.

If you are having trouble attaining to early nanas, try really fast noting, as it tends to move things along.
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Jake, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 5:44 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 5:44 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Would the sudden realization of mind and body be sufficient cause for sudden happiness and bliss? Or is it more of a "holy shit" experience? 
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 5:52 PM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Jake WM:
Would the sudden realization of mind and body be sufficient cause for sudden happiness and bliss? Or is it more of a "holy shit" experience? 

Both have happened in my experience, though "holy shit" moments haven't been as common as "sudden happiness" moments.
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 6:28 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 6:27 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Well, I suppose the underlying criticism is there, but its for meditators in general. They evidently aren't interested in making a reliable tool for a better life accessible. It's just something along the lines of "that's your karma". Whatever the hell that means! Why settle for that when you can Actually Address the problem just by being interested??

I don't know why you're introducing some "wanting a teacher" dynamic. Obviously people want teachers. Obviously people want to have an effective experience in meditation. Do you need some official lineage of teachers to do that? Or could you just have people who are interested in meditation and interested in what it takes to make it accessible. Like people who might be on this forum, reading this, being interested in meditation so that people don't have to starve on Mount McKinley to find out. Just little pointers here and there. It's just about being interested, and it even seems like many meditation teachers aren't even interested. Enough's enough for them, who really cares how many people flounder for no really good reason.

What I wanted to hear out of people is that they're actually paying attention to what composes the meditation experience, so that people who actually need it can access it, but what I'm getting from you guys is that you only think about your own stuff.

Maybe this is just this bizarre because other morons come on here and criticize the DHO blah blah. What I am writing about is something that happened to me and an evidently simple solution to it.

I have no idea why you're saying the DHO isn't an online course, it's like you're justifying your lack of interest in helping others along, no matter how basic, easy, and in-line-with-your interests that would be....
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 6:31 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 6:29 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Well, if you read what I wrote you seem to have missed the point of it. The point was that those garden variety kickers like what you said aren't sufficiently appropriate for people in these situations. 

You're like, meditators waste thousands of hours routinely. Really? You are satisfied with that explanation. That's incredible.

Bizarrely, I actually had really fast noting as the anvil in my practice for like over a year and it is actually what was wrong with my practice. It was what was holding me up. I did it because I needed change, but it was just facile advice from the get go and didn't bring me much insight. 

It is like no one paid attention to my experience to the point of not even wanting to know about it. Just do the "notes". This applies to teachers, too. 

And now I am here writing about a solution to the problem. But it's not being interpreted like that, and evidently no one has any thoughts to add about it.
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:01 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:01 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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James, the first nana tends to be very brief, and in the Burmese Theravada tradition, some teachers say that "true insight" doesn't actually begin until the 4th nana, The Arising and Passing Away. This is at least part of the reason why the early nanas are often not discussed in detail. Once a meditator attains stream entry, they cycle starting from 4th nana, so the early nanas do not arise until the next path begins. So we can talk all day about the higher insight stages, since enlightened beings cycle through them, but the early nanas simply do not manifest very often.

If you have meditated with any degree of diligence, it is almost inconceivable that you have not attained at least the first nana, Mind and Body. As I said earlier, I did not know what it was until much later. I did not even really realize that anything special was happening. It is quite common to sail through nanas and not realize what happened, and it is likely that you have gone past them without realizing it. 

From your first post,
I'm wondering if I'm wrong about this and just managed to not see it all this time. It seems to me that there is ample territory to the first nana, and that more people are 'naturals' with this stage, and therefore it sort of 'goes without saying'. 

Again, Mind and Body, and the three early nanas in general, tend to be very quick, and cannot be repeated after path. It's easy to miss them. If you have practiced with any kind of mindfulness at all, you have almost certainly been through these early nanas. I wish I could be of more assistance.

Do you feel lost on the maps? 
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:20 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:20 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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You're not paying attention to what I wrote.

I know all of what you just said. The only problem is that parts of it are just wrong.

There is a lot of territory to the first nana, I've spent years going through it eradicating impurities that have prevented me from jumping up through the A&P.

So I have experienced it. And it has addressed numerous problems I had in my body in this time, but no one oriented me towards that. As soon as that started happening, it was fine.

But it could have happened a lot sooner had I been oriented towards it.

It's like you're not paying attention to this thread:

They may be quick for some people, but:

They are not quick for others, for others it entails a long process of purification, and this should be included in the maps.
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Jake, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:32 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 7:32 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 135 Join Date: 4/18/13 Recent Posts
Eric M W:
Jake WM:
Would the sudden realization of mind and body be sufficient cause for sudden happiness and bliss? Or is it more of a "holy shit" experience? 

Both have happened in my experience, though "holy shit" moments haven't been as common as "sudden happiness" moments.

Interesting. The reason I asked was because recently I began to think that my glorious and blissful "a&p" experience was just the realization of mind and body, of thoughts not being "me", just another sense. What followed was profound happiness for a few months, and then a deep depression. Sounds like the a&p but to this day I have trouble noticing the arising and passing of phenomena and due to that have been second guessing my place on the maps. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter too much as long as I practice.
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Jeff Grove, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 8:51 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 8:44 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Hi James,
Perhaps if you could lead the discussion with what you believe the maps should detail for the first nanna there would be more discussion in the area you want. 
Name and form, nama and ruppa,
standing, sitting is form
I sit, I stand is nama
What is the difference
Notice with the physical there is also the mental
This doesn't have to be hard
Observe again and again and then you start to see cause and affect
The 5 elements meditation is great for the early stages and observing a quality leads to Jhanna 

Does this help
Jeff
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Noting Monkey, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 9:19 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 9:19 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 48 Join Date: 7/24/11 Recent Posts
Hi Jake WM,
A&P can be also subtle...it is not always wow huge ass-kicking firework etc. especially if you already cycle so you don't need to worry about
to much. Maybe you've already crossed many times not even knowing about. If you already meditating for a while and you find yourself in kind of depression then welcome in the DN... 
and yeah as you say as long as you keep noting the stuff it doesn't matter anyway. 
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Noting Monkey, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 9:45 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 9:45 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 48 Join Date: 7/24/11 Recent Posts
Hi James

(sorry for my spelling I am not english speaking)

there are teachers/traditions where they are really intrested whether the student get the first stage or not.
how they know? they ask questions like "if you feel pain, who feels the pain"; "who sees the flower etc"? If the student has no idea what the question is about they sand him/her back to keep going with the noting practice.
Next day again. In some days will be clear that the experience coming truth the senses is mind. How?
If you practice to stay in present and note the phenomena arising in present moment you will realise that as long as you thinking you not able to see, hear etc. Will be more clear that the eye can not see, ear can not hear.

In Mahasi tradition you get plenty of dharma talks about the 6 sens organs and their objects (12 ayatanas - 18 Dhatus) 

http://www.mi-lam.org/pdf/AyatanasAndDhatus.pdf

then you keep going the practice and the stuff will be clear by itself. 
so teachers really care about the first stages but the student actually have no idea what is going on.
If you follow the instructions the insight will arise naturally. 

cause&effect is the same: intention to lift the leg is the cause, lifting the left ist the effect, lifting the leg is the cause noting it is the effect etc.
slowly they will get it.

you don't need to think about, you don't need to analyse
I guess if it is not arise then the student is not able to keep focus, so get lost in "own stuff" and not able to investigate the present. 
so they will leave early. or i don't know what are they doing after.

I agree with you it is important but same time my experience is that teachers really care about...
and yes here in DhO the DN is more talked about so is good that you brought the topic up. 
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 11:43 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/14 11:38 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
James:


I practiced a lot, really quite a bit, and I didn't have appreciation for the territory I was in. I was very demanding of myself, for good reason.

In the last year, I've made significant progress, from which you can understand why I needed a change so badly:

I had a strange insight with the digits on my left hand where I felt a strangely strong vibration that stayed off cushion for about a week accompanied by thoughts of unpleasant horror movie like gore, slowly lessening throughout the week.

Really unpleasant sort of libidinous tensions in the lower abdomen

Really heavy wrenching weight in my solar plexus

Strange unpleasant cold hollow vomitting sensation in my chest

Tension throughout the left side of my head from the left side of the tongue, through the teeth, into the eye and temple, in the jaw, and around the ear and back of head. It was constantly tensed for who knows, more than a decade, I'm 27 now, and I think it qualifies as body dismorphia. Reason being I had a bone condition and couldn't walk straight until I was 17, and had other things bone condition-wise with the left side of my body that made it difficult to orient, I just dissociated.

Serious tension in my right hip begetting lots and lots of anxiety. The problem was related to my bone condition that I had a spike of bone on the femoral neck on the front that my hip muscles had to stretch over.

Weird super heavy pain that came up during meditation for about two months after I had a surgery to fix the hip. It seemed to come out of a general sort of exoskeleton of like 'rough perception' of my leg and stretched from my hip down to my ankle. 

Strange airy sensation of anxiety in my left foot, it felt sort of like the nerves never really grew fully or something like that.

Body-wide anxiety and aching and heaviness, slowly getting lesser and lesser, eventually feeling okay just being in my body.


So those are all the important ones. Before those, during very serious and looking back basically strenuous practice, I did encounter some really tough aches in my upper back, but other than that just a couple brief and non permanent a&p experiences.

I wonder what it would have been like if I had appreciation for the territory, if I knew that basically some things like those were going to happened. Instead it feels like I may have just wasted thousands of hours of time. 

Hi James,

I'm a little confused as to why you are getting testy with people here. Are you saying that all the experiences in red above are all part and parcel of what you are calling the nana of mind and body?

If so, then perhaps there is a a talking past each other happening as some of those experiences point to other nanas arising in my own experience. I see 3rd and 6th nana expressed a bit in the very little phenomenological descriptions you have given thus far. 

Nick
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:33 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:30 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
James:
Why settle for that when you can Actually Address the problem just by being interested??

What I wanted to hear out of people is that they're actually paying attention to what composes the meditation experience, so that people who actually need it can access it, but what I'm getting from you guys is that you only think about your own stuff.

I have no idea why you're saying the DHO isn't an online course, it's like you're justifying your lack of interest in helping others along, no matter how basic, easy, and in-line-with-your interests that would be....


I added some emphasis to what you wrote. James, are you saying that we are not sufficiently interested in your own stuff?

If that is the case, please read the DhO FAQ page again, especially the sections on what is appropriate here and what is not.

The topic you started is interesting and appropriate. I feel the discussion is not going well. I love discussing the maps and sharing the experiences of other meditators. Please share in the spirit of this place, and if you need to vent, feel free, and be open about it, for everyone's sake.

Cheers,
Florian
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:38 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:38 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 22 Join Date: 6/10/14 Recent Posts
Right, right. Yeah, those are what I was referring to as being from Mind & Body. But now that you bring this up, I realize the only thing I am really saying is that they're pre-A&P experiences. For some reason I assumed they were encompassed in Mind & Body. 

As for getting testy I don't really mean to do it. I was a little confounded that the main idea of trying to address in greater detail the early stages wasn't being spoken about or noticed. I thought it was stated pretty obviously from me. Maybe not, though. 

So, more about that. 

I don't think what I've gone through has had any dark night nanas. If this is the dark night, then I'm surprised because this is relatively pretty easy -- although it has been really miserable when I've sat, it's always felt like I am making progress during the sits. I've thought that the dark night would be stubborn in that regard, and much more chaotic. All the insights that have come have come in a pretty organized fashion, like for that amount of time it was obviously just those insights that I was working with. I thought the DN would be more chaotic. There also is no cycling through the A&P. There is just the tone of the general sensations that I experience which come and go in a fairly predictable way throughout the day. No wild kriyas, just a general state pretty consistent from one moment to the next.

So I am thinking that all of this stuff, pre A&P stuff, is floating leftover garbage from the past on the level of normal habit patterns rather than the upheaval in the paradigm of perception like what would come out of an A&P event. 

I am open to thinking more about this, though. If it turns out that what I'm saying is true, then great, it's great to have that clarity. If it's wrong for one reason of another, then I should know that too. More later
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:38 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:38 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
James:
Bizarrely, I actually had really fast noting as the anvil in my practice for like over a year and it is actually what was wrong with my practice. It was what was holding me up. I did it because I needed change, but it was just facile advice from the get go and didn't bring me much insight. 

It is like no one paid attention to my experience to the point of not even wanting to know about it. Just do the "notes". This applies to teachers, too. 

And now I am here writing about a solution to the problem. But it's not being interpreted like that, and evidently no one has any thoughts to add about it.


Please start a new thread, and describe the problem and your solution.

Cheers,
Florian
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:54 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 1:53 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Yes I you could say that's what I'm saying. I'm disappointed that people are not interested more in making meditation accessible, especially when it's an easy thing to do. Instead letting people like me languor rather than having a discussion about the territory of the early nanas so that people might be able to be guided well in that regard if it applied to them. But then it appeared like no one noticed. 

So it goes? Why are we even talking about this and not just talking about the topic as it was raised, if you think it is interesting and important?
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 3:33 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 2:59 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
James:
I don't think what I've gone through has had any dark night nanas.
How do you know? From people's descriptions not matching your own experience? Isn't that what you are frustrated at cocerning what you are calling pre-Ap experiences? One thing to keep in mind is that the experience of this and that nana can vary in how they present from yogi to yogi. One may not get kriyas at the 4th nana. One may not experience a "stubborn' experience in the dukkha nanas. It is best not to judge your experience too much up against others' desctiptions, though it helps when there are things we relate to to orient our practices. But when we deny our own progress because experiences are not 100% matches to this and that description, we simply set up a conceptual overlay which will influence what we do and don't do in practice , which may or may not result in further progress.


If this is the dark night, then I'm surprised because this is relatively pretty easy -- although it has been really miserable when I've sat, it's always felt like I am making progress during the sits.
Perhaps it is just 3rd nana, which with the very little info I have of your practice, is simply a guess based on a lot of reading others' experiences here as well as my own. Patterns need to be seen to make a more educated guess. Perhaps, only if you are truly interested, you could share your practice for a week or two in a designated thread, and described exatly what is occuring as you practice for 30 minutes to an hour each time? Up to you. Without patterns to be seen, it is hard to tell where you may be at, and all we can rely on is your own guess which may be tinged with your own objectification/proliferation/conceptualisation of what you are experiencing. 

I've thought that the dark night would be stubborn in that regard, and much more chaotic.
It can be, and sometimes it might not be "chaotic" nor "stubborn". Depends on your past conditioning and how concentrated, stable, discerning your are.

All the insights that have come have come in a pretty organized fashion, like for that amount of time it was obviously just those insights that I was working with. I thought the DN would be more chaotic.
It is for a yogi lacking in a malleable, pliant mind. Perhaps you have different conditioning to yogis who experience it more chaotically. Perhaps you are talking about the 3rd nana. Need to see more patterns. 


There also is no cycling through the A&P. There is just the tone of the general sensations that I experience which come and go in a fairly predictable way throughout the day. No wild kriyas, just a general state pretty consistent from one moment to the next.
Perhaps that nana hasn't matured yet and you are hovering around in the first three nanas. The point is, we don't know. And from the little phenomenological descriptions you have given, I doubt you are talking only about the first nana, which is more pleasant than not pleasant, which is why you can samatha-ise it into the 1st samatha jhana. Without seeing further patterns, I think you are misadiagnosing yourself, assigning meaning to experiences which dont match up to what is talked about around here , and then getting into a tissy about people not relating and talking about it as you wish. Sounds like classic post-AP yogi stuff to me actually. But truthfully, I need to see more descrtiptions of your experience to see patterns. 

So I am thinking that all of this stuff, pre A&P stuff, is floating leftover garbage from the past on the level of normal habit patterns rather than the upheaval in the paradigm of perception like what would come out of an A&P event. 
Have you ever experienced the mind and body buzzing like you were lying on a vibrating bed, perhaps buzzing like you had electiricity surging through all parts? Even without kriyas, and lights, and fireworks, I'd classify this access as post-ap. It doesn't have to be a huge perceptual change. That comes later on post-11th nana. 
I am open to thinking more about this, though.
Good. And people here are open to taking you seriously. You just have to be a bit clearer and perhaps share a bit more so we can see PATTERNS!
If it turns out that what I'm saying is true, then great, it's great to have that clarity. If it's wrong for one reason of another, then I should know that too. More later
And you came to a place where we discuss this stuff openly and quite a bit. Trying to be clearer and less testy helps communication both ways.

My 2 cents are that you aren't talking about the just the 1st nana. But I'd like to make a more educated guess with patterns you share with us here at the DhO. If not, frustration may simply be the result. 

Nick
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 3:23 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 3:02 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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James:
Yes I you could say that's what I'm saying. I'm disappointed that people are not interested more in making meditation accessible, especially when it's an easy thing to do. Instead letting people like me languor rather than having a discussion about the territory of the early nanas so that people might be able to be guided well in that regard if it applied to them. But then it appeared like no one noticed. 

So it goes? Why are we even talking about this and not just talking about the topic as it was raised, if you think it is interesting and important?

You are talking about the Mushroom Factor. Keep em in the dark and feed em shit. The Mushroom factor is something talked of here, or perhaps talked of in the past a lot more here now that there are less people not talking about maps, stages, and experiences. But this place and Daniel's book MCTB were a direct reaction to that perceived factor.  Let's see of we actually agree with your self-diagnosis of a broad 1st nana by showing us some patterns in your current practice. If not, then it's hard to continue with this discussion.

Nick
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 5:11 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 5:11 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 22 Join Date: 6/10/14 Recent Posts
Thanks for bigning clarity to this discussion. The stuff you brought up were exactly what I was aiming for, with more refinement, ie the mushroom cutlure. I didn't intend on getting testy, but I suppose I did nonetheless. I guess you can count on someone's mind getting bent when they're talking about something important to them and it gets pretty misconstrued.

I'm going to take you up on your proposition to be more rigorous with this thread.
Eva Nie, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 10:35 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/14/14 10:35 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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I got the impression that you though it would be very helpful to many that that there be more and better descriptions of Mind and Body to help confused beginners.  Ironically, interpretations of your question ranged to almost everywhere other than much in the way of explanations/descriptions of Mind and Body.   Sounds like you were frustrated since way back when people did not explain things to you back when you were a beginner and you feel like you wasted a lot of time and maybe things would have gone faster with better explanation.  That's hard to say if you would have gone faster if things were different, maybe it wouldn't have or maybe not,  but yes, it is irritating when people assume things about you and give you other answers other than the one you asked for, like assuming you were not able to get Mind and Body or that you only ask for  your own progress and not others,etc .  You probably easily remember all the frustration back from when you were a beginner and that is easily triggered when others take on a 'doesn't matter anyway' attitude.  Would a better description not be useful to many and so not worth bothering with here?   

Actually, I don't understand the MCTB explanation of it myself.  I am pretty sure I have gone through A&P through EQ so theoretically, I should have done Mind and Body, but I don't understand the explanations of it and I'm curious and would like to know if for no other reason than just the sake of knowing.  Maybe you just need to be heavily steeped in the traditions for a long time and learn a ton and another ton of terminology and subtly to understand a lot of these explanations.  From an outsider's perspective, that's how it seems to me.  Most explanations of terms are explained using multiple other industry terms, such that understanding anything via normal English is not common.  It's not like I'm a bad student normally and my language comprehension has historically been considered to be quite good, but when I read some of this stuff, I frankly don't know what the )^*#)&^ people are talking about!  Whereas some of the other stuff seems fairly obvious. 

I do sometimes wonder if many people don't answer some of these questions simply because they actually just don't know it well either or feel they don't know it well enough to for sure speak without incorrectness and so would rather just keep quiet.  Another option is that people feel the question is so stupid that it's not worth their time, but I suspect that's not the reason, even if it might be easy to feel slighted if answers swayed anywhere in that general direction.  After all, mind and body is supposed to be elementary, apparently, from what I gather but since I am a total outsider, I have the convenience of not being suppposed to know anything so I can just admit to total confusion on the subject.   Am I the only one that doesn't get it?  This board seems to describe itself in part as a place to discuss the map, so I can certainly see why a person would come here and expect to get more actual explanation than in other places and feel frustrated if it was not forthcoming.  Maybe it is because although this board seems anchored in part on the concepts of the map, this board is also said to be only for the hardcore and this simpler stuff maybe is considered uninteresting or not worth bothering with as being too elementary.      

So is the 'broken word' thing really an example of Mind and Body?  When I was a kid, many kids did that or talked about it on occasion, ie when you repeat a word enough, it can seem to lose its meaning.  I assumed it happened to everyone.  If there was any kid that didn't understand it, then that kid was not admitting it publically, but then again, even as kids, people often hate to admit when they don't understand something fully.

Anyway, something to consider for the long haul might be threads dedicated to one concept or stage at time, and various people's explanations and descriptions of that concept all in the same thread.  People could put their 2 cents in and do their best,  Those threads might turn out to be good ones to organize or make sticky and you could just refer people back to the thread.  When teaching, it's a good idea to explain things in different ways because each student also understand things in different ways.
-Eva
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Jeff Grove, modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 5:31 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 5:28 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Eva M Nie:
I got the impression that you though it would be very helpful to many that that there be more and better descriptions of Mind and Body to help confused beginners.  Ironically, interpretations of your question ranged to almost everywhere other than much in the way of explanations/descriptions of Mind and Body.   



-Eva
Hi
People have taken the time to give explanations and descriptions, there really isn't that much more to add.The insight is the important step. 
With a bit of direction people usually pass through this stage quickly. Thank you to everyone who has had a go
Cheers
Jeff
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 5:50 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 5:44 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts

1. Namarupa pariccheda nana: knowledge that can distinguish between mental and physical states.
In this nana, or state of wisdom or knowledge, the meditator is able to distinguish nama (mental phenomena) from rupa (material phenomena). For example, he is aware that the rising and falling movements of the abdomen are rupa and that the mind which acknowledges these movements is nama. A movement of the foot is rupa and the consciousness of that movement is nama.

The meditator can distinguish between nama and rupa with regard to the five senses as follows:


  • When seeing a form, the eyes and the color are rupa; the consciousness of the seeing is nama.
  • When hearing a sound, the sound itself and the hearing are rupa, and consciousness of the hearing is nama.
  • When smelling something, the smell itself and the nose are rupa, and the consciousness of the smell is nama.
  • When tasting something, the taste and the tongue are rupa, and the consciousness of taste is nama.
  • When touching something, whatever is cold, hot, soft or hard to the touch is rupa, and consciousness of the contact is nama.

In conclusion, in this nana the meditator realizes that the whole body is rupa and the mind (or consciousness of the sensations of the body) is nama. Only nama and rupa exist. There is no being, no individual self, no "I", no "he" or "she," etc. When sitting, the body and its movement are rupa and awareness of the sitting is nama. The act of standing is rupa and awareness of the standing is nama. The act of walking is rupa and the awareness of the walking is nama.


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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 5:50 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 5:50 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html#ch3.1

Analytical knowledge of body and mind.

Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically as follows: "The rising (upward movement) of the abdomen is one process; the falling (downward movement) is another; sitting is another; touching is another," etc. In this way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily process that he notices. Further he realizes: "The knowing of the rising movement is one process; the knowing of the falling movement is another." In that way he comes to know each mental act of noticing. Further he realizes: "The rising movement is one process; the knowing of it is another. The falling movement is one process; the knowing of it is another," and so on. In that way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily and mental process. All that knowledge comes from simply noticing, not from reasoning; that is to say, it is knowledge by direct experience arrived at by the mere act of noticing, and not knowledge derived from ratiocination.

Thus, when seeing a visual object with the eye, the meditator knows how to distinguish each single factor involved: "The eye is one; the visual object is another; seeing is another, and knowing it is another." The same manner applies in the case of the other sense functions.

For at the time, in each act of noticing, the meditator comes to know analytically the mental processes of noticing, and those of thinking and reflecting, knowing them for himself through direct knowledge by his experience thus: "They have the nature of going towards an object, inclining towards an object, cognizing an object." On the other hand, he knows analytically the material processes going on in the whole body — which are here described as "the rising and falling movements of the abdomen," "sitting," etc., knowing them thus: "These have notthe nature of going or inclining towards an object, or of cognizing an object." Such knowing is called "knowing matter (or the body) by its manifestation of non-determining." For it is said in the Mula-Tika, the "Principal Sub-commentary" to the Abhidhamma Vibhanga: "In other words, 'non-determining' (as in the passage quoted) should be understood as having no faculty of cognizing an object.

"
Such knowledge as this, which analyzes in each act of noticing both the bodily process noticed and the mental process engaged in noticing, according to their true essential nature, is called "analytical knowledge of body and mind.

"
When that knowledge has come to maturity, the meditator understands thus: "At the moment of breathing in, there is just the rising movement of the abdomen and the knowing of the movement, but there is no self besides; at the moment of breathing out, there is just the falling movement of the abdomen and the knowing of the movement, but there is no self besides." Understanding it thus in these and other instances, he knows and sees for himself by noticing thus: "There is here only that pair: a material process as object, and a mental process of knowing it; and it is to that pair alone that the terms of conventional usage 'being,' 'person' or 'soul,' 'I' or 'another,' 'man' or 'woman' refer. But apart from that dual process there is no separate person or being, I or another, man or woman."
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 6:42 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 6:42 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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http://www.buddhanet.net/knowledg.htm

 Knowledge of the distinction between mind and body - nama-rupa paricheda-nanaWhen khanika samadhi is established, the meditator notices that experience break up: Breathing and walking break up into distinct, separate events of rising/falling; lifting/moving/placing;etc. The distinction between physical experience (rupa) and the quality of the knowing of the physical experience (nama) becomes apparent.Further divisions may become apparent - e.g., "seeing" consists of the interrelation between the eye, a visual object, the act of seeing, and the knowing of the act of seeing.`The attention may fall on any or all of these aspects. For example, sound in the form of "hearing a bird" may become sound as just sound; or sound as the knowing of sound.In brief, the meditator sees there is just experience and the knowing of experience.
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 6:59 AM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/html/jhanas.html

Access to the First Vipassanā Jhāna Requires Insight into Mind and Matter
It is not sufficient to have all five factors present for one to say one has attained the first vipassanā jhāna. The mind must also come to penetrate into the Dhamma a little bit, enough to see the interrelationship of mind and matter. At this time we say that access to the first vipassanā jhāna has occurred.A yogi whose mind is composed of these five jhānic factors will experience a new accuracy of mindfulness, a new level of success in sticking with the object. Intense rapture, happiness and comfort in the body may also arise. This could be the occasion for him or her to gloat over the wondrousness of the meditation practice. “Oh wow, I’m getting really precise and accurate. I even feel like I’m floating in the air!” You might recognize this reflection as a moment of attachment.
This one is worth reading in Full, In This Very Life by U Pandita. There is more on the 1st Vipassana Jhana which encompasses the first nana of mind and body. 
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:09 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:09 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/the-map/the-physio-cognitive-stage/
The Physio-Cognitive Stage
The Physio-Cognitive Stage
  • Mind and Body
  • Cause and Effect
  • Three Characteristics
I call the first phase of mediation the physio-cognitive stage because the insights associated with it are primarily about the body, mind, and their connection and characteristics. This stage can feel pretty mundane, and practioners often don’t even know that they are in this stage. I had no idea that I had gone through it the first time it happened. It wasn’t until things got exciting that it became clear that I must have already gone through these and it wasn’t until I went through them many times that I was even able to see them clearly.           

Mind and BodyThe physio-cognitive section of the path begins when the meditator enters into the stage of Mind and Body. During this stage the meditator’s mind begins to sync up with the beginnings of phenomena, and when they note whatever comes into awareness the meditator begins to distinguish their thoughts from their bodily sensations. This can seem pretty mundane and uneventful, but it is actually pretty valuable information. It is an understanding that is needed before any further insights are possible. For those who are particularly attuned to their own states, they may notice a subtle shift from being the thoughts and sensations to watching them.The primary insight that is gained in this stage is that the mind and the body are truly different.

Of course we all know that this is so on a cognitive level, but there is a big difference between knowing this and seeing it in real time. Actually seeing these truths as they are happening has a profound effect on the mind. Oddly, while the effect can be profound, in that certain doubts vanish, it is an effect that can be easy to miss. This is often true of many of the insights that occur. This is because the insights do not leave an imprint on us at a cognitive level, but at a much deeper level.
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:14 AM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Stages of Insight-Knowledge

Also, the mental phenomena such as the act of contemplating, consciousness of thoughts, act of seeing, etc., are also perceived at every moment of contemplation as distinguished from material phenomena and other mental phenomena. Even at every moment of breathing, the body that is known and the knowing mind are observed and noted with clear distinction. This knowledge of discernment distinguishing between mind and matter is known as "namarupa-pariccheda ñana." When this insight-knowledge has been developed many a time, the known material object such as the phenomena of 'rising and falling' and the knowing mind which realizes the act of seeing, knowing, etc., are clearly understood as being only rupa (matter that has no sensitivity of knowing things) and 'nama' (mind which has the power or sense of knowing, seeing or feeling the material objects and mental activities) which in fact constitute the two main factors of this bodily existence.Apart from these two constituents of life existence, there is no 'atta,' or Self, and knowing this well one becomes elated. This realization of knowledge in the course of contemplation is called "Ditthi- Visuddhi" (Purity of View).

On proceeding further with the contemplation, it will be appreciated for having perceived that the material and mental phenomena that are arising in the body are the results of cause and effect.
For illustration: The disciple is pleased for having perceived the fact that because of the mind intending to bend or stretch or move or change the posture, there arise the action of bending, stretching, moving; or changing; because of the fluctuations of temperature, condition in the physical body changes either by being hot or cold; and because of the partaking of food there arises formations of the physical energy. Again he perceives with satisfaction that because of the presence of the eye and visual object, ear and sound, etc., the act of seeing, hearing etc., has occurred; and because of the volitional attentiveness, the mind reaches its sense-object. Again, he perceives with entire satisfaction that because of 'Avijja' (ignorance or delusion) things appear as being fine and pleasurable; because of 'tanha' (cravings) all kinds of deeds are performed after premeditation, being willing to get better-off and delighted or obtain satisfaction: and because of attachment to such actions, thoughts and performances there arise afresh 'viññana' (consciousness): and that the phenomenon of death is nothing but the eventual passing away or disappearance of such consciousness; and that the new life existence (another birth) is the resurgence of such mental consciousness together with the new corporeal body to be depended upon, and so forth.
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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:20 AM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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http://vmc128.8m.com/VipassanaTechniques/


QUESTION 8:
        Can the enumeration or itemization of phenomena result in Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana (the knowledge distinguishing between mind and body)?

ANSWER 8:        A yogi cannot develop Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana just by enumerating or itemizing phenomena. Only when the yogi observe mind and body the moment they take place, will the yogi be able to spontaneously distinguish between mental and physical phenomena. That is really Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. (The discourse on Dhamma-cakka-pavattana Sutta)Real insight knowledge can be brought about by observing the present phenomena, but not by reasoning, analyzing, judging or itemizing: there are 81 types of worldly consciousness (Lokiya Citta), 52 kinds of mental constituents (Cetasika), 28 categories of matter; and so on. Such knowledge is just learning memory (Sanna), but not real knowledge based on one's own experience. Think about what the 81 types of worldly consciousness (Lokiya Citta) are; whether they all can take place in us. Mahaggata consciousnesses, for example, belong to Jhanic persons only. Even though worldly,  Kriya consciousnesses only to Arahantas. How can a person experience an object which does not belong to him or her? Among 28 categories of matter, femininity is owned by women, while masculinity by men. So one cannot experience another's gender. So, itemizing phenomena which one does not really experience, how can it be the knowledge of ultimate truth? Is it not conceptual knowledge? The answer, if given honestly, will be: "Yes, it is just conceptual knowledge." Thus, it is crystal clear that such conceptual knowledge, or just memory of learning cannot result in Nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana. As a matter of fact, a yogi cannot bring about even basic insight knowledge without observing mind and matter.  

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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:37 AM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Nikolai , modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 4:40 PM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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http://www.dhammaspread.org/Page428.htm

"When people first begin vipassana meditation their minds are usually not very calm, their samadhi (concentration) and sati (mindfulness) are somewhat weak, and they often forget to make mental notes. Thus, meditators should begin by noting ‘rising’ and ‘falling’ continuously and the rising and falling matter (rupa) of the abdomen will become more distinct. Then, the mind (nama) will understand that it has the purpose of knowing the rising and falling and will see that the rising and falling are two separate material events.

As the samadhi of the meditator develops, the meditator will then come to realize that the rising and falling matter and the mind that notes it are two different things; not the same. There is no self engaged in this process, just the rising object and the mind that notes it.

This first knowledge marks the beginning of the end for self illusion. (In noticing the rising matter, the meditator will notice the middle part of the rising because it is more distinct.)"
Eva Nie, modified 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:46 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/15/14 7:46 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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[quote=]but there is no self besides." Understanding it thus in these and other instances, he knows and sees for himself by noticing thus: "There is here only that pair: a material process as object, and a mental process of knowing it; and it is to that pair alone that the terms of conventional usage 'being,' 'person' or 'soul,' 'I' or 'another,' 'man' or 'woman' refer. But apart from that dual process there is no separate person or being, I or another, man or woman."

Thank you Nikolai, you really came through!   I think I basically get it and lots of interesting links to look further into as well.  But this above quote caught my attention sooner, although it takes the conversation off on a tangent.  So the point of the concept of no self is there is no self OTHER THAN sensation and awareness of sensation?  Which in my my mind means something rather different than a concept of there is no self AT ALL.  Am I getting this right? 
-Eva
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/28/14 2:01 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/28/14 2:01 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Great So I thought I would just place the results of the last couple weeks of my practice in this same thread, why bother with a new one, especially when 80% of respondents just decided that I am just confused, and that that's all there is.

So it has been pretty consistent the last two weeks. Winding the clock back two weeks, there was a period where during meditation and also off the cushion through general mindfulness, the tensions in the left part of my face felt more close together, and less than before, when they felt like the parts on that side of the face were loosely held together by string. A disjointed feel. But those few days were of a closer more integrated feel to them.

Then starting on last Friday my head started to assume a posture moved to the right with my ear approaching my right shoulder, with significant tension arising in the back left part of my neck, getting very strong. During this time with the significant tension, there was a feeling with the tensions throughout the left side of my head as though they were getting integrated with one another, into the whole field on the head itself. 

This pattern reemerged in the following days, and eventually progressed to my jaw opening wide, my head moving around into different positions, although with most of them having the face point upwards, and the tension moving from just the back left part of my neck to my jaw and other parts of the back of my neck, depending on how my head was moved. At times my jaw would open very very widely and tensely - powerfully so, that it almost felt like my jaw was being opened by exterior forces. When this was happening it felt like there were other tinier tensions and distortions usualy extant in my face that were becoming resolved.

This has become easier to get in touch with since then, in the last couple days.

Accompanying this insight is a general feeling of fear/anxiety/tenseness/apprehension. Just an uncertainty and sort of hesitance about feeling the strange postures my face and head are adopting. 

It is that simple. Nothing else has been happening. Only one time there was a slight tingly wave that went down my right leg. That is all.

To me this seems like just another mind & body rendition addressing the distortions in my experience since far before any insight practice or insight event. This particular one with the tension in my left face has been there probably as long as I can remember. I was dissociated from it and ignoring it.

So what else do we need to know to make the decision? 

The only thing I can think of is the progression of the sits. It starts with just noting, with tension in my face, and slowly my awareness finds the movements that seem to address the tension in my face and move my head along it, seemingly getting deeper into it the longer the sit goes on.
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/28/14 1:01 PM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Yeah, that could what I'm thinking about, chakras. My idea with this thread is that this type of territory should be included in the maps. It appears to be criteria for fostering deeper insights. Without a reasonable base of perception in your body, you will not pass through the A&P.

My practice includes similar things to what Pawel suggested.
James, modified 7 Years ago at 7/31/14 11:12 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/31/14 11:12 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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So, I am wondering if I am in the DN or not, I would think not, because everything that has come up has been so predictable. But maybe the degree of concentration here, not very much compared to most serious meditators I think (although offset by 24/7 commitment), might have the effect of making it not so chaotic/piercing?

Sad to see no one is interested in thinking about this. 

Someone here even said "maybe meditation's not for you"... that's like someone rich telling someone poor "maybe economic stability isn't for you"
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Noting Monkey, modified 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 1:12 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 1:12 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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I still don't understand why do you worry so much about where you are...
If you are not in the DN then keep going noting....If you are in the DN then keep going noting...
don't follow your mind come back to present and the next stage will arise. 

NM
James, modified 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 7:35 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 7:32 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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I'm not "worrying about where I am". My practice is beyond this. You're just assuming I'm trying to self medicate.

This is actually a topic to try to make progress more realistic for people who are in that territory.

My question about whether I'm in the DN or not is just this:

If I am in the DN, that explains the previous territory. 

If I am not in the DN, then there can be better explanations for early territory like that that avoids wasting thousands of hours for a specific type of practitioner.
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Jeff Grove, modified 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 8:02 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 8:02 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Hi James,
You will cycle thru stages with each sit, you have an underling medical condition which you explained and perhaps it made your progression thru the earlier stages uniquely painful
Use Google to search this site
The map that Dan's book is based on is 2000 years old and a well trodden path, it's not about the map it's the insight that leads to progress
Cheers
Jeff
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Noting Monkey, modified 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 10:49 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 8/1/14 10:47 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Hi James,

sorry for misunderstanding...I see your positiv intention but I would prefer to open a new thred and make it claer what is your goal with it...

As Jeff sad underling conditions can make the progress more diffucult (and you can hardly avoid them) and those conditions are very different for each person. Somebody go faster others are slower. We have to pay the price for everything we have done. 
The low of Karma can not be avoided. All suffering we get has its place in our progress.
 
I would not call it „waisting thousands of hours…“ All those hours are lessions must be learned.
If you find a good teacher and you are able to follow instructions then it is because of your good karma from the past. As the level of desires are dropped the mind tend to be less distracted so the „fine tune“ practice can go on.
 
So if we want to find explanation for the early territory: underling conditions based on our Karma. I think it would be more beneficial for others (because this is your goal if I got your point) to talk about how could you overcome those difficulties then finding the causes of the difficulties. 

The instructions are very basic but can be followed only when the mind is already cleaned on the superficial level. If it is hard for somebody to get his mind to do what must be done then working on morality and perfections will give a good support.
 
NM
James, modified 7 Years ago at 8/3/14 12:30 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 8/3/14 12:30 AM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Hi Jeff,

You're wrong. The whole point of this thread is to make it easier for people who need it like that. Obviously insight is what works. And yet it can be made more accessible to people early on. It is just about making a goal oriented practice. Does that not sound like PD to you?
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Jeff Grove, modified 7 Years ago at 8/3/14 9:35 PM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Hi James,
Have you had a chance to check out the Wiki with this site there are some great descriptions of the nanas and sub nanas
cheers
Jeff
James, modified 7 Years ago at 8/9/14 7:57 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 8/9/14 7:57 PM

RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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Hi Jeff

This entire post has been about how that may not be enough in some cases and how there can be further criteria to help people. Did you just not read it?
Eva Nie, modified 7 Years ago at 8/10/14 3:11 PM
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RE: Nana #1 Mind and Body

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There seems to be a kind of underlying and subtle assumption at times that the knowledge from long ago is not only the only knowledge that is needed but also the only knowledge that is useful or will ever useful.  I don't agree with either assumption.  I personally feel that, and I am sure that others may disagree, I personally feel that no special ancient knowledge, texts, or statements are actually NEEDED for enlightenment.  Buddha figured it out his own way and I also think there were many others before him.  Before there was a special terminology for it that currently survives in our history books, I think there was, before that, still people who became enlightened.  So I don't think the ancient texts are a requirement. 

But are they useful and helpful?  I'd guess that for many, yes, that knowledge does help.

But is it all that will ever be known and/or all that will ever be useful?  I'd say no.  I don't think humanity is done with all useful learning on that front.  Something doesn't have to be old to be true and all old things are not true.  I do think we can learn more and add to current understanding. 

I think also there is a great reluctance on the part of many (especially gurus and leaders) to say the magical words, "I don't know," when confronted with a question. Instead, there tends to be an attitude of it's not known, it's not only not needed but also that the better understanding of it would not even be useful. IMO, the leap from 'not needed' to 'not useful' is a large and also often incorrect assumption.  If we don't even understand something, how can we assume such understanding would not be of use?  Oh but it's not needed some might say!  ;-P

Certainly there is something to be said about practicality.  And there are so many strange and varying side effects to meditation that the idea of understanding any one individual's symptoms does seem rather unlikely on the face of it, at least given current knowledge, so I can certainly see why a lot of things have gotten informly lumped into a kind of 'weird but unimportant side effects' type of category.   And I can certainly see why leaders might want people to concentrate on methods they think would work best and not get sidetracked by other things.  But I also think long term, it would be useful for humanity to put some effort into trying to get a better understanding of some of this stuff and actually add to our knowledge base instead of just continuing to surf along as best we can on the old knowledge.  Hopefully, there is still room for curiosity even about things that aren't absolutely NEEDED but still might turn out to be useful.  Curiosity is what drives progress and evolution.  IMO, we stunt that at our own peril. 
-Eva