Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2 - Discussion
Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Jason Snyder, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 11:04 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 11:01 AM
Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 186 Join Date: 10/25/13 Recent Posts
As the title suggests, I think it would be very usefull to discuss direct inquiry as an insight strategy to be used alongside noticing/noting, especially for recognizing "not-self". Daniel does discuss direct inquiry in an indirect way in the "not-self" section below:
"There also seems to be something that is frequently called “the watcher,” that which seems to be observing all this, and perhaps this is really the “I” in question. Strangely, the watcher cannot be found, can it? It seems to sometimes be our eyes, but sometimes not; sometimes it seems to be images in our head; and sometimes something that is separate from them and yet watching the images in our head. Sometimes it seems to be our body, but sometimes it seems to be watching our body. Isn’t it strange how we are so used to this constant redefinition of ourselves that we never stop to question it? Question it! This odd sense of an unfindable watcher to which all of this is happening yet which is seemingly separate from all that is happening, which sometimes seems in control of “us” and yet which sometimes seems at the mercy of reality: what is it really? What is going on here?"
...but I think it can be fleshed out more, with references made to various resources that do this systematically.
Plenty of people have become enlightened using Vipassana or Self Inquiry (just look at the batgap site), but imagine if people used them together in a sophisticated way? I know this is MCT of the Buddha and that direct inquiry is an Advaita Vedanta thing, but aren't we about pragmatism first and foremost?
"There also seems to be something that is frequently called “the watcher,” that which seems to be observing all this, and perhaps this is really the “I” in question. Strangely, the watcher cannot be found, can it? It seems to sometimes be our eyes, but sometimes not; sometimes it seems to be images in our head; and sometimes something that is separate from them and yet watching the images in our head. Sometimes it seems to be our body, but sometimes it seems to be watching our body. Isn’t it strange how we are so used to this constant redefinition of ourselves that we never stop to question it? Question it! This odd sense of an unfindable watcher to which all of this is happening yet which is seemingly separate from all that is happening, which sometimes seems in control of “us” and yet which sometimes seems at the mercy of reality: what is it really? What is going on here?"
...but I think it can be fleshed out more, with references made to various resources that do this systematically.
Plenty of people have become enlightened using Vipassana or Self Inquiry (just look at the batgap site), but imagine if people used them together in a sophisticated way? I know this is MCT of the Buddha and that direct inquiry is an Advaita Vedanta thing, but aren't we about pragmatism first and foremost?
Small Steps, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 12:38 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 12:38 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
I think this fusing of techniques is what Kenneth Folk's been advocating with his three speed transmission, no? If anyone practices this, or with Kenneth, please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood.
It seems like there's a bit of self/direct inquiry teachings, along with ideas of emptiness that come out of the later (Mahayana) teachings of the Buddha. The Vajrayana practices, in particular dzogchen and mahamudra, zazen, even the "open/choiceless awareness" popular in western Insight circles all seem to point to this.
I feel there's a lot of value in picking one or two practices that speak to one's experience best (at the time), and then practicing diligently. Consistent, intelligent, dedicated practice may get you a lot further than you think :-)
It seems like there's a bit of self/direct inquiry teachings, along with ideas of emptiness that come out of the later (Mahayana) teachings of the Buddha. The Vajrayana practices, in particular dzogchen and mahamudra, zazen, even the "open/choiceless awareness" popular in western Insight circles all seem to point to this.
I feel there's a lot of value in picking one or two practices that speak to one's experience best (at the time), and then practicing diligently. Consistent, intelligent, dedicated practice may get you a lot further than you think :-)
Jason Snyder, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 1:14 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 1:14 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 186 Join Date: 10/25/13 Recent PostsSmall Steps:
I think this fusing of techniques is what Kenneth Folk's been advocating with his three speed transmission, no? If anyone practices this, or with Kenneth, please feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood.
It seems like there's a bit of self/direct inquiry teachings, along with ideas of emptiness that come out of the later (Mahayana) teachings of the Buddha. The Vajrayana practices, in particular dzogchen and mahamudra, zazen, even the "open/choiceless awareness" popular in western Insight circles all seem to point to this.
I feel there's a lot of value in picking one or two practices that speak to one's experience best (at the time), and then practicing diligently. Consistent, intelligent, dedicated practice may get you a lot further than you think :-)
It seems like there's a bit of self/direct inquiry teachings, along with ideas of emptiness that come out of the later (Mahayana) teachings of the Buddha. The Vajrayana practices, in particular dzogchen and mahamudra, zazen, even the "open/choiceless awareness" popular in western Insight circles all seem to point to this.
I feel there's a lot of value in picking one or two practices that speak to one's experience best (at the time), and then practicing diligently. Consistent, intelligent, dedicated practice may get you a lot further than you think :-)
Small Steps, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 1:45 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 1:45 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent PostsJason Snyder:
For example I would suggest that self inquiry can be seamlessly alternated in a single sit with the noting of sensations to gain insight into "not-self" with the goal of achieving stream entry.
Jason Snyder, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 2:44 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 2:44 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 186 Join Date: 10/25/13 Recent PostsSmall Steps:
Jason Snyder:
For example I would suggest that self inquiry can be seamlessly alternated in a single sit with the noting of sensations to gain insight into "not-self" with the goal of achieving stream entry.
Jason Snyder, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 4:41 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 4:41 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 186 Join Date: 10/25/13 Recent Posts
An example of how it all kind of boils down to the same thing, this is from "Standing in Awareness" by Greg Goode, a Direct Path teacher:
"In a nutshell, higher reason works by following your direct experience. You examine the gross and subtle worlds, as well as the body, senses, and mind. You come to see that they are experienced as objects in witnessing awareness and cannot exist apart form the witnessing awareness. You then investigate the witness itself and come to see that it is an ever-so-subtle structure superimposed upon awareness. When this is realized, the witness gently and peacefully collapses into awareness itself, which is pure consciousness...."
Sounds basically like Vipassana to me.
"In a nutshell, higher reason works by following your direct experience. You examine the gross and subtle worlds, as well as the body, senses, and mind. You come to see that they are experienced as objects in witnessing awareness and cannot exist apart form the witnessing awareness. You then investigate the witness itself and come to see that it is an ever-so-subtle structure superimposed upon awareness. When this is realized, the witness gently and peacefully collapses into awareness itself, which is pure consciousness...."
Sounds basically like Vipassana to me.
Small Steps, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 5:28 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 5:17 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent PostsJason Snyder:
An example of how it all kind of boils down to the same thing, this is from "Standing in Awareness" by Greg Goode, a Direct Path teacher:
"In a nutshell, higher reason works by following your direct experience. You examine the gross and subtle worlds, as well as the body, senses, and mind. You come to see that they are experienced as objects in witnessing awareness and cannot exist apart form the witnessing awareness. You then investigate the witness itself and come to see that it is an ever-so-subtle structure superimposed upon awareness. When this is realized, the witness gently and peacefully collapses into awareness itself, which is pure consciousness...."
Sounds basically like Vipassana to me.
"In a nutshell, higher reason works by following your direct experience. You examine the gross and subtle worlds, as well as the body, senses, and mind. You come to see that they are experienced as objects in witnessing awareness and cannot exist apart form the witnessing awareness. You then investigate the witness itself and come to see that it is an ever-so-subtle structure superimposed upon awareness. When this is realized, the witness gently and peacefully collapses into awareness itself, which is pure consciousness...."
Sounds basically like Vipassana to me.
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
Small Steps, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 5:55 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 5:55 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
Jason, as an aside, you might find some of Adyashanti's talks or writings interesting. He's another advocate of the direct path, and many of his teachings are around this idea of an ineffable, transcendent true self (my interpretation of his works).
An Eternal Now, modified 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 7:12 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/3/14 7:12 PM
RE: Request for Direct/Self Inquiry Section in MCTB 2
Posts: 638 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Self-inquiry and vipassana not quite the same.
Thusness, 2009:
"“Hi Gary,
It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.
My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.
On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.
Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.
Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'”
and
“Hi Gozen,
I fully agree with what you said. It is just a casual sharing with Gary as he seems to be experiencing some aspects of the direct path.
To me both gradual and direct path will eventually lead us to the same destination. It is rather the degree of understanding we have on a particular teaching. If we practice wholeheartedly, whatever traditions will lead us to the same goal.
Frankly without re-looking at the basic teachings of Buddhism about the dharma seals and dependent origination, I will be leaving traces in the Absolute. In vipassana, there is the ‘bare attention’ and there is the mindful reminding of impermanence, no self and suffering of the transience. It is a very balanced and safe approach.
Like in Zen tradition, different koans were meant for different purposes. The experience derived from the koan “before birth who are you?” is not the same as the Hakuin’s koan of “what is the sound of one hand clapping?” The five categories of koan in Zen ranges from hosshin that give practitioner the first glimpse of ultimate reality to five-ranks that aims to awaken practitioner the spontaneous unity of relative and absolute are meant to prevent leaving traces. (You should be more familiar than me ) My point is when we simply see the Absolute and neglect the relative, that ‘Absolute’ becomes dead and very quickly another ‘dead Absolute construct’ is being created. In whatever case, we can only have a sincere mind, practice diligently and let the mind figure the rest out.
The mind does not know how to liberate itself.
By going beyond its own limits it experiences unwinding.
From deep confusion it drops knowing.
From intense suffering comes releasing.
From complete exhaustion comes resting.
All these go in cycle perpetually repeating,
Till one realizes everything is indeed already liberated,
"
Thusness, 2009:
"“Hi Gary,
It appears that there are two groups of practitioners in this forum, one adopting the gradual approach and the other, the direct path. I am quite new here so I may be wrong.
My take is that you are adopting a gradual approach yet you are experiencing something very significant in the direct path, that is, the ‘Watcher’. As what Kenneth said, “You're onto something very big here, Gary. This practice will set you free.” But what Kenneth said would require you to be awaken to this ‘I’. It requires you to have the ‘eureka!’ sort of realization. Awaken to this ‘I’, the path of spirituality becomes clear; it is simply the unfolding of this ‘I’.
On the other hand, what that is described by Yabaxoule is a gradual approach and therefore there is downplaying of the ‘I AM’. You have to gauge your own conditions, if you choose the direct path, you cannot downplay this ‘I’; contrary, you must fully and completely experience the whole of ‘YOU’ as ‘Existence’. Emptiness nature of our pristine nature will step in for the direct path practitioners when they come face to face to the ‘traceless’, ‘centerless’ and ‘effortless’ nature of non-dual awareness.
Perhaps a little on where the two approaches meet will be of help to you.
Awakening to the ‘Watcher’ will at the same time ‘open’ the ‘eye of immediacy’; that is, it is the capacity to immediately penetrate discursive thoughts and sense, feel, perceive without intermediary the perceived. It is a kind of direct knowing. You must be deeply aware of this “direct without intermediary” sort of perception -- too direct to have subject-object gap, too short to have time, too simple to have thoughts. It is the ‘eye’ that can see the whole of ‘sound’ by being ‘sound’. It is the same ‘eye’ that is required when doing vipassana, that is, being ‘bare’. Be it non-dual or vipassana, both require the opening of this 'eye of immediacy'”
and
“Hi Gozen,
I fully agree with what you said. It is just a casual sharing with Gary as he seems to be experiencing some aspects of the direct path.
To me both gradual and direct path will eventually lead us to the same destination. It is rather the degree of understanding we have on a particular teaching. If we practice wholeheartedly, whatever traditions will lead us to the same goal.
Frankly without re-looking at the basic teachings of Buddhism about the dharma seals and dependent origination, I will be leaving traces in the Absolute. In vipassana, there is the ‘bare attention’ and there is the mindful reminding of impermanence, no self and suffering of the transience. It is a very balanced and safe approach.
Like in Zen tradition, different koans were meant for different purposes. The experience derived from the koan “before birth who are you?” is not the same as the Hakuin’s koan of “what is the sound of one hand clapping?” The five categories of koan in Zen ranges from hosshin that give practitioner the first glimpse of ultimate reality to five-ranks that aims to awaken practitioner the spontaneous unity of relative and absolute are meant to prevent leaving traces. (You should be more familiar than me ) My point is when we simply see the Absolute and neglect the relative, that ‘Absolute’ becomes dead and very quickly another ‘dead Absolute construct’ is being created. In whatever case, we can only have a sincere mind, practice diligently and let the mind figure the rest out.
The mind does not know how to liberate itself.
By going beyond its own limits it experiences unwinding.
From deep confusion it drops knowing.
From intense suffering comes releasing.
From complete exhaustion comes resting.
All these go in cycle perpetually repeating,
Till one realizes everything is indeed already liberated,
"