What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

John, modified 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 4:33 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 4:32 PM

What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 50 Join Date: 7/11/14 Recent Posts
Hi,
What I don't understand is what insight does an enlightened one have that one is SE doesn't have.
It seems like no-self is as deep as you can go and then you are done, it doesn't seem you can obtain more insight
than that.
Some have mentioned about reading others' minds and having no rebirth afterwards but for magic, I don't believe in it
and it seems to be dogma and same with rebirth. I've tried reading about it but it goes deep into dogma, same like
the idea of recalling your previous lives. I think Daniel has written about his past lives but it seems contrary to science and to
reason.

Cheers.
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 6:10 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 6:10 PM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 288 Join Date: 3/19/14 Recent Posts
Hey John,

What I don't understand is what insight does an enlightened one have that one is SE doesn't have.

Oh, enlightened beings have all kinds of things. Access to nibbana is a big one (fruition), and there's Nirodha Samapatti at higher levels of enlightenment as well. Much better concentration, which means greater access to concentration states such as formless realms. But I'd say the biggest bonus is a reduced/eliminated sense of self, which results in less fundamental suffering and great levels of peace. Life just becomes much easier.
It seems like no-self is as deep as you can go and then you are done, it doesn't seem you can obtain more insight
than that.

That is the end of the "no-self" axis of development, yes, but there are other axes that can be developed as well. It's not like someone gets a black belt in karate and then says "Well, I guess there's nothing more to do, so I'm going to stop practicing." There's still plenty to learn.
Some have mentioned about reading others' minds and having no rebirth afterwards but for magic, I don't believe in it
and it seems to be dogma and same with rebirth. I've tried reading about it but it goes deep into dogma, same like
the idea of recalling your previous lives.

What does "believe" have to do with anything? I don't believe I have next-door neighbors out of blind faith. I know I have neighbors because I see them and interact with them. In the same token, I don't believe in magick, I know it exists because I have tried it and it works. You can also try it and see for yourself. It would be most unfortunate to ignore this axis of development because of your personal materialist bias.

I think Daniel has written about his past lives but it seems contrary to science and to
reason.

How is it contrary to reason? You must be assuming that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain, which is a huge problem. The concept of rebirth in Buddhism can be dogmatic, but plenty of practitioners here have had vivid experiences of what could be termed "past lives," including myself.

Perhaps it is more helpful to think of these experiences as deep levels of the psyche rather than literal past lives? It is a perfectly valid phenomenon regardless of how we view it.

Enlightenment is a profound thing and I think it is worthy to be pursued. "Highly recommended, can't tell you why." -Bill Hamilton
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 6:26 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 6:19 PM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
HI John,
What I don't understand is what insight does an enlightened one have that one is SE doesn't have.

I think in September 2013 the scholar-practitioner monk, Bhikkhu Bodhi, explained that one who is fully enlightened is compared to seeing the full moon, whereas one who has merely "entered the stream" is compared to seeing just the quarter moon. If I remember correctly, the behavior changes reflect one who is always aware of dependent origination and impermance, but one who has lately and just briefly become directly aware of causality and one of the three characteristic (anatta, anicca and/or dukkha) that person (the so-called stream-enterer)has not absorbed deeply enough the direct experience to remember it all the time (dependent origination, a characteristic) nor behave accordingly. I am just recounting what I've heard. I may also have made a mistake here with my imperfect memory.
Some have mentioned about reading others' minds and having no rebirth afterwards but for magic, I don't believe in it
and it seems to be dogma and same with rebirth. I've tried reading about it but it goes deep into dogma, same like
the idea of recalling your previous lives.

There is training and philosophy in Buddhism; if you see something as baseless dogma, then you can ignore that or if those apples (rebirth and siddhis) spoil the whole cart for you there are many more world philosophies and religions to turn to and you could also create your own.
For myself, I do cherry-pick around Buddhism to avoid some of its political stuff, like the genital-based discrimination-- that discrimination I try to avoid and leave alone or to support equanimity towards the genders/genitals, for example. As for siddhis and rebirth, yes, one can ignore that, too, and just adhere to a training technique and see how it goes; for some people over time, their experience of those two events changes, for some not.

I use the inhale-and-exhale-breathing training method, anapanasati.

Bye for now.

______
EDIT: about practice:
+1 Eric: What does "believe" have to do with anything? I don't believe I have next-door neighbors out of blind faith. I know I have neighbors because I see them and interact with them.
John, modified 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 9:58 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 7:06 PM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 50 Join Date: 7/11/14 Recent Posts
Eric M W:
Hey John,

What I don't understand is what insight does an enlightened one have that one is SE doesn't have.

Oh, enlightened beings have all kinds of things. Access to nibbana is a big one (fruition), and there's Nirodha Samapatti at higher levels of enlightenment as well. Much better concentration, which means greater access to concentration states such as formless realms. But I'd say the biggest bonus is a reduced/eliminated sense of self, which results in less fundamental suffering and great levels of peace. Life just becomes much easier.
It seems like no-self is as deep as you can go and then you are done, it doesn't seem you can obtain more insight
than that.

That is the end of the "no-self" axis of development, yes, but there are other axes that can be developed as well. It's not like someone gets a black belt in karate and then says "Well, I guess there's nothing more to do, so I'm going to stop practicing." There's still plenty to learn.
Some have mentioned about reading others' minds and having no rebirth afterwards but for magic, I don't believe in it
and it seems to be dogma and same with rebirth. I've tried reading about it but it goes deep into dogma, same like
the idea of recalling your previous lives.

What does "believe" have to do with anything? I don't believe I have next-door neighbors out of blind faith. I know I have neighbors because I see them and interact with them. In the same token, I don't believe in magick, I know it exists because I have tried it and it works. You can also try it and see for yourself. It would be most unfortunate to ignore this axis of development because of your personal materialist bias.

I think Daniel has written about his past lives but it seems contrary to science and to
reason.

How is it contrary to reason? You must be assuming that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain, which is a huge problem. The concept of rebirth in Buddhism can be dogmatic, but plenty of practitioners here have had vivid experiences of what could be termed "past lives," including myself.

Perhaps it is more helpful to think of these experiences as deep levels of the psyche rather than literal past lives? It is a perfectly valid phenomenon regardless of how we view it.

Enlightenment is a profound thing and I think it is worthy to be pursued. "Highly recommended, can't tell you why." -Bill Hamilton
1) Why is it a materialist bias when I simply don't believe in things for which we have no evidence for.
Look at most of the world religions, they rely on dogma and convince people to commit atrocities in the name of God.
Regarding magick, can you please tell me how you do it? So I can try it and see whether it is imaginary or something real.

2) "You must be assuming that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain, which is a huge problem. " But modern
science does say that consciousness is generated by the brain. When you die you are plugged off and you don't experience anything.
This is fundamental problem which has been solved. ;)

3) "The concept of rebirth in Buddhism can be dogmatic, but plenty of practitioners here have had vivid experiences of what could be termed "past lives," including myself."
You can have very vivid dreams but if you mistake them for God telling you something then you are in deep trouble. It doesn't make
them real just because they are vivid.

Thank you.
Cheers.
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Dada Kind, modified 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 11:02 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/22/14 11:02 PM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 633 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
Look at most of the world religions, they rely on dogma and convince people to commit atrocities in the name of God.
Look at most of the world political systems, they rely on dogma and convince people to commit atrocities in the name of 'freedom', 'patriotism', 'American exceptionalism', 'revolution', 'democracy', 'Manifest Destiny', 'Hope', 'white man burden', etc. The same can be said of almost any human institution.
But modern
science does say that consciousness is generated by the brain. When you die you are plugged off and you don't experience anything. This is fundamental problem which has been solved. ;)
That consciousness is merely an epiphenomenon of brain function is an assumption.


You use the word 'real' several times. Can you define 'real'?
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Florian, modified 7 Years ago at 9/23/14 12:13 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/23/14 12:06 AM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi John,

First of all, I'm no Dharma salesman, and you are not asking any explicit questions but voicing your opinion.

If you were asking "what's the difference between Stream Entry and Arahat-ship?", here's a model of the stages of awakening which I like a lot: The Simple Model.

It does not rely on anything supernatural at all to describe the process.

It's a short text but it packs a lot into the few paragraphs, so if you like, read it slowly and re-read passages as needed to unpack them.


You also mention (belief in) dogma. Something I've found to have happened to me is that I hold fewer beliefs nowadays than, say, 20 years ago. I would not attribute that entirely to my meditation practice and the progress if insight, but the connection is there and strong, I'd say. Finding not-self in a belief kind of defeats the purpose of holding the belief in the first place.

As I said, I'm not here to make you a happy customer and there is nothing to sell or buy into. If you do find that this question (or any question of that nature) won't let go of you, and you want release from the hold it's got over you, the best and really only advice is to see for yourself by practicing well.

Cheers,
Florian
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Eric M W, modified 7 Years ago at 9/23/14 6:47 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/23/14 6:46 PM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 288 Join Date: 3/19/14 Recent Posts
John,

1) Why is it a materialist bias when I simply don't believe in things for which we have no evidence for.
Look at most of the world religions, they rely on dogma and convince people to commit atrocities in the name of God.

You don't believe things for which there is no evidence, that is a very good thing. Blind faith gets a lot of people in trouble, such as the atrocities you mention. I am inclined to point out, though, that there is evidence for the existence of psi. Please check out these books I am linking.
Regarding magick, can you please tell me how you do it? So I can try it and see whether it is imaginary or something real.

I'm not much of an expert on magick, but you might try these techniques for travelling out-of-body, or this remote viewing tutorial.
2) "You must be assuming that consciousness is somehow generated by the brain, which is a huge problem. " But modern
science does say that consciousness is generated by the brain. When you die you are plugged off and you don't experience anything.
This is fundamental problem which has been solved. ;)

I'm not familiar with any studies showing that "when you die, you are plugged off". I am, however, familiar with hundreds of case studies regarding near-death experiences, where a person dies and then continues to experience things, often being able to report accurately what the actions and words of the medical staff whilst floating overhead. A physician named Raymond Moody pioneered research in Near-Death Experiences in his book, Life After Life.

I should mention that scientists once believed that the sun revolved around the earth. However, later observations showed that this wasn't true. Along those same lines, I'd say that things science claims today may be entirely replaced later as more data becomes available. For example, quantum physics is replacing the old Newtonian model. 

3) "The concept of rebirth in Buddhism can be dogmatic, but plenty of practitioners here have had vivid experiences of what could be termed "past lives," including myself."
You can have very vivid dreams but if you mistake them for God telling you something then you are in deep trouble. It doesn't make
them real just because they are vivid.

Yes, just because dreams are vivid doesn't mean they are true. But perhaps I wasn't clear enough. With my personal experience of a past life, I heard a very unusual name and military rank. I did some research in "real life" and found this person in historical records. It was not merely an experience, but an experience that I was able to verify.

At any rate, it doesn't really matter what beliefs we hold. I am merely trying to assist you in expanding your horizons, since "psychic" phenomena can arise during meditation practice, and I don't want this to be scary or unsettling for you. You could read some of the material I linked, or you could spend your time much better by meditating and sorting this all out for yourself.

Regards,
Eric
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 7 Years ago at 9/24/14 2:19 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 9/24/14 2:19 AM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 3231 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Regarding insight: if you are really into science, do the experiment and see for yourself.

Investigate the transient nature of sensate phenomena (something that I hope we agree on) until it is understood automatically for all of them in real-time and see what that does to you.

If you are really into the question of the powers, regardless of how you think of them: get your concentration really strong using a visualization object and a mantra and then turn towards those experiences and see what happens.

These experiences arise regardless of whether or not you think of them as "real". However, as they arise and vanish, they must be causal, meaning that something lead to them and they lead to something. So to exclude them from "reality" while they still have causality involves a pretty limited defininition of "reality". More important is the question of what they cause and is that of any value, and here the debate gets much more fun.
Martin Petersen, modified 7 Years ago at 10/10/14 10:22 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 10/10/14 10:12 AM

RE: What else is there to obtain except Jhanas and Anatta?

Posts: 3 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:

If you are really into the question of the powers, regardless of how you think of them: get your concentration really strong using a visualization object and a mantra and then turn towards those experiences and see what happens.

These experiences arise regardless of whether or not you think of them as "real". However, as they arise and vanish, they must be causal, meaning that something lead to them and they lead to something. So to exclude them from "reality" while they still have causality involves a pretty limited defininition of "reality". More important is the question of what they cause and is that of any value, and here the debate gets much more fun.
Use a visualization object and a mantra -

So would, for example, the mantra 'Magic', and a visualized luminous orb be adequate here?

I.e. recite 'Magic' inwardly while attempting to stabilize and clarify the image of the orb in the mind's eye? And then, once concentration reaches a certain level - access concentration? - jhana? - turn towards those experiences. If so, could you please describe more in detail - what does 'turn towards those experiences' mean here? Thanks in advance!

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