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ATTENTION!: It appears that our server has been hacked through this version of Liferay, meaning it is no longer secure, and so expect instability as we deal with this and attempt to upgrade to Liferay 7, which we failed to be able to do last year the last time the team attempted it, but we have no choice at this point, so bear with us as we try again. Save any long posts in a text file before posting them. You can follow me on Twitter at @danielmingram for updates if the site is down. Apologies for any complexity this causes. We will work as fast as we can. We have backups of the database, so hopefully nothing will be lost. Thanks to all helping with this complex process.

 

 

 

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The DhO Itself

Enough Drama

Enough Drama
Answer
9/23/14 1:41 PM
Ok, the past few days saw a couple of drama eruptions here, among many fine discussions being held.

Please, if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.

If anyone has fundamental problems with the existence of moderators, reddit offers almost endless alternatives.

If anyone can't meditate because there are some mystics and occultists and fairy-seeing hippies in the world whose views they have to correct first, please by any means get that out of your system, the secular humanists and related groups do amazing work fighting modern day snake-oil salesmen and charlatans exploiting the hopes of the terminally ill and their families, fight for the (continued) separation of curch and sate, and many other worthy social causes.

If you wish to discuss your adventures in meditation and other forms of mind training, and want more of that, please lead by example, and continue to contribute here on the DhO.

In other words, let's tone down the drama.

Cheers,
Florian (no mod hat, appealing to internet common sense and general goodwill and courtesy)

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/23/14 4:36 PM as a reply to Florian.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/23/14 6:26 PM as a reply to Florian.
if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.

Why would you go there? I agree, let's leave all of that alone.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 7:16 AM as a reply to Nikolai ..
Thanks for the thread, Florian.

So I want to say two things from the "lurker mod" pespective that I have:

1) I like that DharmaOverground has not been heavily moderated. As far as I can tell there's still a lot of anger and frustration at this time in the world so I like that DhO is a place for people are frustrated, angry, even what seems to be fantastically delussional-- I like that a huge range can practice here. People get a change to run out their "oats", so to speak, to sort of pour out what their minds want to do in a pretty non-harm way: posting. 

(I know, I know, posting can be harmful

In my head there is a wet-wood to dry wood gamut here. For people who want to spark up and just burn off mental argumentation and rigtheous views, they will bump-threads and ignite for some times-- a hot burning thread. For people who are currently "wet wood"-- they are not provoked by these things: akupam mi vimutti is the (mispelled) Pali: "unprovoked is my release".

Neither can be fabricated: If a person has sparks to ignite they can't help but deal with that biting-outgoing frustration. And if a peron is more "wet wood" they are going to need a major fuel to get them to fight or use affrontive-approach or they simply may no longer be ignitable. The wet wood mind has just found other ways to work out the source of their mental frustration in a non-combat way. Having the chance to combat-verbally spar is a great way to naturally move to non-combat because one can learn the limits and effects of verbal combat/affront in their own life experience: To what extent is combat gratifying and when does it cease being gratifying and become self-punitive or contrary to own well-being?

Maybe combat feels gratifying for some people all their life. That's okay. I think Christopher Higgins was famous for his verbal fight. Totally fine, he could always be a spark with someone else who needed to fight. Same goes here in this place: maybe some people have a life of this. Sometimes that's really useful to the benefit of whole communities.

I have been in both mental roles here on the DhO: I started as dry wood with trigger topics (which still exist). And for the moment, there's a lot of hot topic material that I feel people are testing on each other in "hot threads", extending something that occurs regularly in the world and that irritates their minds and they get an opportunity to burn it off the frustration of this with one other person they find here is equally happy to burn off their frustration at them, too.

This part of the site reminds of Tibetan's deliberate practice of debate: they know that argumentation, anger and debate are going to happen in people's minds, so they make it part of the training: finger pointing, shouting, hand slapping rhetorical emphasis. 

2) For people who've been here longer than I and moderating, I hope you will be careful about double-standards based on old ties and friendships. To me it was clear that Nathan (triple think) was able to make some very aggressive comments without rapproach and sawfoot_ was not afforded the same wide birth. I enjoy reading both of their practices; they sort of ignited together a bit in the last year, but it's okay. That said, I would like violent-plans-against-someone comments to be checked.  As a lurker mod, if someone makes a blatant threat to you, please point me to the thread if you think a moderator or moderation confab will help.


I appreciate the site and that it was founded by Daniel in the first place. It clearly fills a needed niche akin to venting hard mental stuff.

Thank you.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 7:14 AM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:

Please, if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.



Is that how you percecived these events or is this some kind of test/provocation?
I don't understand why else would you open a new thread relating to a subject in the topic that _you_ closed?
Are you just bored or do you want drama?

emoticon

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 12:49 PM as a reply to Florian.
Florian Weps:
Ok, the past few days saw a couple of drama eruptions here, among many fine discussions being held.

Belittling of others, and belitting of others by way of contrast.

Please, if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.

Designed to provoke and offend and cause more drama (e.g. see other some responses to the OP).

If anyone has fundamental problems with the existence of moderators, reddit offers almost endless alternatives.

Belittling again. Inability to realise fundamental problem is not with their existence, but their behaviour, and in provoking drama in non-meditation related posts e.g. see the OP, and post by OP which led to recent drama. 

If anyone can't meditate because there are some mystics and occultists and fairy-seeing hippies in the world whose views they have to correct first, please by any means get that out of your system, the secular humanists and related groups do amazing work fighting modern day snake-oil salesmen and charlatans exploiting the hopes of the terminally ill and their families, fight for the (continued) separation of curch and sate, and many other worthy social causes.

Belittling and sanctimonius dig at me (though am honoured to get the biggest bit)

If you wish to discuss your adventures in meditation and other forms of mind training, and want more of that, please lead by example, and continue to contribute here on the DhO.

Drama provoking thread not example leading. Use of the DhO "brave fellow adventures" meme. Tacit threat perhaps. No discussion of meditation and other forms of mind training by poster. 

In other words, let's tone down the drama.

Patronising, belittling again. 

Cheers,
Florian (no mod hat, appealing to internet common sense and general goodwill and courtesy)

Has obvious mod hat on, goodwill and courtesy absent, as highlighted above. Common sense would be not to start threads like this. Behaviour inconsistent with stated goals.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 1:12 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
Hi SF, 

I am glad Florian opened it. I wanted to reply to some of the verbal combat stuff, but don't have time to read the entire threads in which some heat is happening. 


So, for me, if DhO is akin to a garden, I hope it mainly grows attracts meditative and contemplative practicioners. 

I find several people like myself had started practicing here with rough edges, confronationalism, over-the-edge debate.. For example, I could simply have said, "I don't see how one chooses specific music to listen or to create while also have the conviction of no agency." Instead, I launched an affront many two years ago? So the practice taught me to either butt out or, if I sincerely want to engage with someone, to make sure my approach is sincerely friendly, as just one example. This doesn't prevent me from raising challenges with people.

Else there is something like evangelistic anger  happening over and over in hot threads, not helpful mental development and training if it goes on and on gratifying the practitioner by offending others.

Sometimes if people will just ignore posts, a person will peter out there posting journey. So it's a two-part play. One can just leave a lot of posts alone. For example, I didn't know what was going on with Triple Think (why should I?) this past winter. So I left those threads alone. That's his practice. When things got heated between himself and another practicioners, I avoided those posts until I felt I should comment on a threat of physical violence.

Anyway, happen shikantaza (just sitting),

Katy

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 1:33 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Also, I have slow Internetz, limited access right now so I'm banning myself for about four weeks at least. I can't access DhO messages or chat well, no skypies or gmail-chatties. Soooo, uhm.. I weigh in and I make like a tree and leave ;)

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 1:48 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
Interesting observations Katy.

Maybe combat feels gratifying for some people all their life.

I've wondered about the nuances of this within myself.  For example, I really enjoyed fighting within a martial arts context.  In this case, there is nothing personal against the opponent, it's just sport/exercise/training.  However, I can feel the pull of anger and resentment in other situations, and this is not at all pleasant.  There is the initial rush of adrenaline that can feel empowering, but then other sensations move in afterword that feel very unpleasant.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 1:50 PM as a reply to ftw.
ftw:
Florian Weps:

Please, if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.



Is that how you percecived these events or is this some kind of test/provocation?

emoticon



 It's called "favored child syndrome." The parent intervenes in a conflict and deems one child to be okay, the other not okay. It is a parent-child rather than an adult-adult transaction. See Berne, Games People Play (1964).

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 2:42 PM as a reply to Derek.
Derek Cameron:
ftw:
Florian Weps:

Please, if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.



Is that how you percecived these events or is this some kind of test/provocation?

emoticon



 It's called "favored child syndrome." The parent intervenes in a conflict and deems one child to be okay, the other not okay. It is a parent-child rather than an adult-adult transaction. See Berne, Games People Play (1964).

The implications are unsettling. To be fair Bill did take quite an abrasive approach, which ultimately proved unproductive, but it seemed to me his perceptions had a legitimate foundation, given what Jen said. Unfortunately, she deleted her side of it so now we can no longer verify that. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons I am against the deletion of anything.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/25/14 7:27 PM as a reply to Florian.
You know, it's weird. In all the Buddhist forums I've looked at, the general tone is aggressive and condescending. Maybe that says something about Buddhism in the west...

By comparison, everyone at The Tao Bums forum recites poetry, posts nature photos, and talks about channeling earth energy in the woods (except in the Buddhist forum, where everyone yells at each other and posts huge quote blocks from the scriptures, haha).

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 1:30 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
He asked me to take my voice and GET OUT. None of you so-called moderators moderated, except for Florian. So I took my "voice" and got out. So, BCDEF, since you agree with "Bill's" so-call perspective, made up of screaming and ranting for 2 days, you ought to fully support my being silenced (ie, taking down my posts as Bill asked). Congratualtions, cause I'm out of here. Now you have, what, three women here? Nice! Please try to at least be consistent with yourself.

What I learned is that I can never even discuss here whether "feminism," which apparently few here even understand, is actually consistent with Buddhist morality, which I reiterate it is, because this site is a hostile environment pretending to be "diverse" and tolerant, but which is with no civility, no code of conduct, no policies, no sense of fairness, and no responsiblity on the part of the moderators, except Florian.

So 4th Pathers don't feel safe to share their practices here. People into the occult don't either. And neither do "feminists." Cease to pretend you are diverse. This is sickness and this is not Path. You are fostering chaos and discord. You are emmeshed and codependently addicted to argument. You are cultivating hedgemony. You are cultivating hate. It is poison. And I'm done. Congratulations on the silencing. May you someday stop being impervious to learning something you have not already run over and over again into the ground a million times in your combat-word-skeins.

I have a practice to foster. This is not Path. This is not "diversity." This is Internet forum foolishness. This is distraction from my practice.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 1:40 AM as a reply to sawfoot _.
Sawfoot, shut the hell up.

Love your former dharma sister,

Jenny (aka "Silenced")

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 2:23 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Silenced:
He asked me to take my voice and GET OUT. None of you so-called moderators moderated, except for Florian. So I took my "voice" and got out. So, BCDEF, since you agree with "Bill's" so-call perspective, made up of screaming and ranting for 2 days, you ought to fully support my being silenced (ie, taking down my posts as Bill asked). Congratualtions, cause I'm out of here. Now you have, what, three women here? Nice! Please try to at least be consistent with yourself.

What I learned is that I can never even discuss here whether "feminism," which apparently few here even understand, is actually consistent with Buddhist morality, which I reiterate it is, because this site is a hostile environment pretending to be "diverse" and tolerant, but which is with no civility, no code of conduct, no policies, no sense of fairness, and no responsiblity on the part of the moderators, except Florian.

So 4th Pathers don't feel safe to share their practices here. People into the occult don't either. And neither do "feminists." Cease to pretend you are diverse. This is sickness and this is not Path. You are fostering chaos and discord. You are emmeshed and codependently addicted to argument. You are cultivating hedgemony. You are cultivating hate. It is poison. And I'm done. Congratulations on the silencing. May you someday stop being impervious to learning something you have not already run over and over again into the ground a million times in your combat-word-skeins.

I have a practice to foster. This is not Path. This is not "diversity." This is Internet forum foolishness. This is distraction from my practice.



This is life Jen. This is your practice. Be mindfull. Don't think of practice as something to runaway to. If you think you need a break from forum, go take a brake but do come back.

"If you see things with real insight,then there is no stickiness in your relationship to them. They come – pleasant and unpleasant – you see them and there is no attachment. They come and they pass. Even if the worst kinds of defilement come up, such as greed or anger, there’s enough wisdom to see their impermanent nature and allow them to just fade away. If you react to them, however, by liking or disliking, that isn’t wisdom. You’re only creating more suffering for yourself."

Ajahn Chah

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 3:52 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Silenced:
He asked me to take my voice and GET OUT. None of you so-called moderators moderated, except for Florian. So I took my "voice" and got out. So, BCDEF, since you agree with "Bill's" so-call perspective, made up of screaming and ranting for 2 days, you ought to fully support my being silenced (ie, taking down my posts as Bill asked). Congratualtions, cause I'm out of here. Now you have, what, three women here? Nice! Please try to at least be consistent with yourself.

What I learned is that I can never even discuss here whether "feminism," which apparently few here even understand, is actually consistent with Buddhist morality, which I reiterate it is, because this site is a hostile environment pretending to be "diverse" and tolerant, but which is with no civility, no code of conduct, no policies, no sense of fairness, and no responsiblity on the part of the moderators, except Florian.

So 4th Pathers don't feel safe to share their practices here. People into the occult don't either. And neither do "feminists." Cease to pretend you are diverse. This is sickness and this is not Path. You are fostering chaos and discord. You are emmeshed and codependently addicted to argument. You are cultivating hedgemony. You are cultivating hate. It is poison. And I'm done. Congratulations on the silencing. May you someday stop being impervious to learning something you have not already run over and over again into the ground a million times in your combat-word-skeins.

I have a practice to foster. This is not Path. This is not "diversity." This is Internet forum foolishness. This is distraction from my practice.

Hi Jenny,

Sometimes a bit of patience allows things to play out. Why so quick to storm off in a huff? 

Nick

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 8:34 AM as a reply to Derek.
Hi Derek

Derek Cameron:
ftw:
Florian Weps:

Please, if anyone still has the urge to vent about their problems with self-confident women, they can do so on one of the many fine forums run my MRAs.



Is that how you percecived these events or is this some kind of test/provocation?

emoticon



 It's called "favored child syndrome." The parent intervenes in a conflict and deems one child to be okay, the other not okay. It is a parent-child rather than an adult-adult transaction. See Berne, Games People Play (1964).


As you accurately observed, as a moderator, I totally had a parent's function in that situation.

Men still overwhelmingly tend to be the favored children in our society, even in this modern times and age.

I do not think it is "ok" at all to attack a woman for advancing women's interests. The status quo and the sheer momentum of millennia of this status quo having prevailed historically make it totally "not ok" for a man to do this, no matter how much or little benefit he may actually be getting from that status quo.

The existence of poor white people still does not make it ok for them to be racist, agreed? Understandable, maybe, but definitely not ok.

In the same vein, the existence of men who have been unfairly treated by women still does not make it ok for them to be sexist. Understandable, maybe, but definitely not ok, and not something I want to watch.

Cheers,
Florian

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 11:22 AM as a reply to Jenny.
Hi Jen,

Silenced:
He asked me to take my voice and GET OUT. None of you so-called moderators moderated, except for Florian. So I took my "voice" and got out. So, BCDEF, since you agree with "Bill's" so-call perspective, made up of screaming and ranting for 2 days, you ought to fully support my being silenced (ie, taking down my posts as Bill asked). Congratualtions, cause I'm out of here. Now you have, what, three women here? Nice! Please try to at least be consistent with yourself.

1) To be clear, what I agreed from Bill's posts was that feminists tend to see sexism where there is none. I didn't agree that you should stop posting about feminism. I'm not sure how you got that I would support you not talking about feminism anymore, given how I just sent out an email how I could potentially see anything going on in one's life as being on-topic.
2) You weren't silenced. One member told you to stop talking about a given topic. A mod stepped in and told him to stop and closed the thread when he didn't. Plus you've gotten a lot of supportive PMs. Now we the mods are discussing whether and how to change our moderation policies as a result of your input. How is that being silenced?
3) I would appreciate it if you'd stick to the facts. He never asked you to take down your posts. He even said "Do not delete this thread. You can not just delete anything you do not like." Note also that he never engaged in name-calling. This stuff is... actually pretty important to get right, when making judgement calls.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 12:49 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Jen's posts on the thread being deleted I can't comment on them; this is the first I'm catching wind of these events. But Bill's posts were clearly over the top and counterproductive and it seems an offense to reason to suggest they aren't straight up sexist. Zoom out from our computers and look at his words in the context of the real world: come the fuck on. Get real. And he suddenly shows up and that's his contribution? Seriously. Jesus. This is emberrassing.

Yes everybody's got to be an adult and deal with their own reactions to this stuff-- but I simply couldn't reccomend a female friend to check out this site if comments like Bill's aren't moderated. Seriously. Ridiculous. There is nothing 'pragmatic' about letting people get away with that kind of stuff. This isn't about being politically correct; there's TONS of room for folks to articulate unorthodox or dissenting viewpoints about issues of race, gender etc. as long as it's done in a thoughtful and communicative way.

I apologize if these comments are out-of-whack due to Jen's posts not being there for me to see. What I can see of their residue in other posters' quotes does not appear to me to be anything that would warrant the tone of Bill's posts. Which were pathetic. God there's nothing more aweful than watching a bigot spout on and on about how not bigoted they are and why nobody should bring up race/gender/etc discrimination. Jesus. The resentment and twisted projection simmering beneath those comments... yuck.

RE: Enough Drama
Answer
9/26/14 1:04 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
Jen's posts on the thread being deleted I can't comment on them; this is the first I'm catching wind of these events. But Bill's posts were clearly over the top and counterproductive and it seems an offense to reason to suggest they aren't straight up sexist. Zoom out from our computers and look at his words in the context of the real world: come the fuck on. Get real. And he suddenly shows up and that's his contribution? Seriously. Jesus. This is emberrassing.
Hmm, yes, some serious sexism oozing from Bill's posts:
Women will come to participate in this forum when they actually have a practice to participate about. We do not do anything that deters them.

Women are welcome to come and talk about their practices.

Women can come and talk about their practice if they have a practice, no one will stop them, and people will say what they know to say.

I think the mistake that you and Jen and Florian are making is that you are equating feminism with gender equality, and therefore anti-feminism with sexism. But this is like saying, if you're against welfare, you hate poor people; if you're against the minimum wage, you hate unskilled workers; if you're against public education, you don't want people to be educated; if you're against government-paid healthcare, you want everyone to get sick and die, etc. That's not actually the case. I *do* care about gender equality, but I think feminism actively works against that.

This, I think, is where Bill was speaking from. That he did it in a highly offensive and non-productive way, yes, I agree, and I think I would be okay with moderating for reasons of politeness. But I would not be okay with moderating anti-feminist discussions on grounds of sexism, because I don't think those are necessarily the same. To actually make the case for that, would require a lot more posts and a lot of patience and it seems extremely liable to heated discussion, and I'm not sure it would be worthwhile, but I at least wanted to share my perspective.