post human meditation

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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/23/14 2:35 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/23/14 2:35 PM

post human meditation

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What happens to buddhism and meditation if humans evolve beyond all recognition in the coming centuries ? New genes, new nervous system, new everything - maybe we eventually turn into something as different to us as we are to jellyfish - so isn't buddhism doomed by evolution ? After all, it developed as a part of homo sapiens sapiens culture so presumably it will disappeaer with HSS too ?
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Richard Zen, modified 10 Years ago at 9/23/14 2:48 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/23/14 2:48 PM

RE: post human meditation

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This stuff is so speculative. We don't know what will happen to humans 1000 years from now let alone evolutionary changes that last millions of years.  Secondly there are other galaxies and planets that probably have some kind of life so the timeframes to discover (if we can) is in the light years. Buddhism works well with humans as they are but other animals will have different needs whatever ones exist in the future.
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/23/14 2:58 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/23/14 2:58 PM

RE: post human meditation

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Certainly speculative, but I think the potential for changing some fundamental apsects of what it means to be human are just showing up, after thousands of years of relative stability in the genotype and phenotype (if I have my terminology right).

It seems like we are at a point of disruption for religion. I wonder if the trend for shamanism can continue if humans migrate off planet and away from jungles altogether ? And I just saw Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been calling to save the environment despite the Apocalypse being a fundamental part of Christianity. So are we going to see renewable energies disrupt the narrative of Apocalyptic religions ?

Is there any sign of anything contemplative in non-human primates, BTW ?
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 1:06 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 1:03 AM

RE: post human meditation

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What happens to buddhism and meditation if humans evolve beyond all recognition in the coming centuries ? New genes, new nervous system, new everything - maybe we eventually turn into something as different to us as we are to jellyfish - so isn't buddhism doomed by evolution ? After all, it developed as a part of homo sapiens sapiens culture so presumably it will disappeaer with HSS too ?


The dharma is eternal and applicable to all sentient life, no matter how advanced or primitive the lifeform is.  That is, unless, sentient beings are born enlightened to begin with.  The word dharma means "law," like the laws of physics, not government.  Now, I could see the vipassana stages as perhaps being different for different organisms, but general observerlessness/centerlessness/agencylessness will always apply.  There will never be a separate permanent self for any being.  In addition to this, there will never be any being whose reality is composed of something other than impermanent/selfless sensations, no matter how advanced.  This is not speculation.  This is why the Buddha was known as the "teacher of the gods."  The dharma was equally applicable to very "evolutionarily" advanced devas and god-beings.
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 3:59 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 1:47 AM

RE: post human meditation

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I have written down the three laws of sentient existence, just like the three laws of thermodynamics.


The Three Laws of Sentient Experience

1. There will never be an independent-separate-controlling self or Self for any sentient lifeform or sentient experience**.

2. There will never be a sentient lifeform (or sentient experience**) whose experience consists of something other than impermanent and self-less sensations*.  

3. Nirvana/Nibbana is the realization of the previous two laws for all sentient experience and sentient lifeforms.

*(I'm leaving out the dukkha characteristic only because very very advanced lifeforms likely experience impermanent/self-less sensations so refined that they would be pretty much unable to see the dukkha in them.).

**(I have used the word "sentient experience" to delineate formless type existences where the body is not well defined and the experience is amorphous and not as solid).
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 2:29 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 2:18 PM

RE: post human meditation

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The dharma is eternal and applicable to all sentient life, no matter how advanced or primitive the lifeform is.
Is there a doctrinal reference for that - I'm not really familiar with buddhist scripture ?

Buddhism seems absolutely rooted in the human nervous system - all the techniques and methods are precisely to negotiate that - human emotions, human perceptions, human social mores etc. All these things depend on the human nervous system - and we are just one species of ape on one planet. So buddhism as a religion or philosophy depends on humans staying human, seems to me.

For instance, let's say that the A&P is simply an way to see through some particular tricks of the human brain as it constructs our perceptual reality ?
A life form that doesn't construct perceptions in that way will not need or experience that stage of meditation. Probably there are many life forms on Earth that come into that category.

Why shouldn't life forms be out there that don't have that human dualistic split between self and world, or aggregate various sensory inputs into a unique self ?

Gods and Devas ? Are buddhists still going with these ?
Mark, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 3:12 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 3:12 PM

RE: post human meditation

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Tom Tom:

The dharma is eternal and applicable to all sentient life, no matter how advanced or primitive the lifeform is.  That is, unless, sentient beings are born enlightened to begin with.  The word dharma means "law," like the laws of physics, not government.  Now, I could see the vipassana stages as perhaps being different for different organisms, but general observerlessness/centerlessness/agencylessness will always apply.  There will never be a separate permanent self for any being.  In addition to this, there will never be any being whose reality is composed of something other than impermanent/selfless sensations, no matter how advanced.  This is not speculation.  This is why the Buddha was known as the "teacher of the gods."  The dharma was equally applicable to very "evolutionarily" advanced devas and god-beings.

Tom, if it is anything like the "laws" of physics then we are in for a bumpy ride - the laws of physics change radically and regularly.

You seem to be assuming some sort of finality in "enlightened". The Buddha logically spent most of his effort talking about the human condition. There is no doubt a lot more dharma to discover, imagine a bunch of buddhas get together and start building a society...

It seems quite imaginable to have a sentient being with absolutely no sense of agency - I'm pretty sure there are "mentally disabled" humans like that.

Why not a hive like concept - just really clever bees!

Imagineable that some being may never die - could just go on forever (if the universe does...). May just swallow the occassional galaxy to keep on ticking!

Simulated beings would allow the exact same scenario to be played out - terrible but imagineable.

There could be experiences that are well above and beyond what our minds can create. If we consider the small difference between a monkey and human, if there is a much large difference between human and more aadvanced creature they would devise concepts more appropriate for their needs. I'm sure monkeys think we would get by fine living on the monkey's terms emoticon

With advances in biology and computing we may see the emergence of things that push the dharma much further than imagineable. It would be a sad day if everything worth knowing was wrapped up 2500 years ago !
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:19 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:17 PM

RE: post human meditation

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Is there a doctrinal reference for that - I'm not really familiar with buddhist scripture ?


The dharma, as simply "the teachings," is temporary, but the very innermost core of the dharma (in the form of the three laws I wrote above) will always be applicable.  Buddhist scripture says that when the dharma has decayed then in several thousand years another Buddha will arise to re-discover the teachings.

Buddhism seems absolutely rooted in the human nervous system - all the techniques and methods are precisely to negotiate that - human emotions, human perceptions, human social mores etc. All these things depend on the human nervous system - and we are just one species of ape on one planet. So buddhism as a religion or philosophy depends on humans staying human, seems to me.


I never said "Buddhism" is eternal.  The only core thing that is relevant to all sentient entities or experience are the three laws I wrote.

For instance, let's say that the A&P is simply an way to see through some particular tricks of the human brain as it constructs our perceptual reality ?
A life form that doesn't construct perceptions in that way will not need or experience that stage of meditation. Probably there are many life forms on Earth that come into that category.


I already specifically pointed out that the vipassana stages could very well be different or non-existent for different creatures.  It isn't even always necessary for a human to go through the vipassana stages to get enligthened.

Why shouldn't life forms be out there that don't have that human dualistic split between self and world, or aggregate various sensory inputs into a unique self ?


I also already specifically pointed out that the dharma wouldn't matter if sentient beings are already born enlightened.  However, this does not negate the truth of the three laws pointed out above.
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:36 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:30 PM

RE: post human meditation

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Tom, if it is anything like the "laws" of physics then we are in for a bumpy ride - the laws of physics change radically and regularly.


While your statement may be dubious in several specific physical cases, I was merely using the term to denote something like "cosmic law" which applies to sentient experience.

You seem to be assuming some sort of finality in "enlightened". The Buddha logically spent most of his effort talking about the human condition. There is no doubt a lot more dharma to discover, imagine a bunch of buddhas get together and start building a society...


I was merely using the term dharma to refer to the three laws I stated.  Anything other than that is up for grabs.

It seems quite imaginable to have a sentient being with absolutely no sense of agency - I'm pretty sure there are "mentally disabled" humans like that.


Of course, that is why I stated that the very core of the dharma is completely irrelevant to sentient "beings" who are already born enlightened. That is, unless they wish to teach un-enlightened beings.

Why not a hive like concept - just really clever bees!


There are no hive-like organisms whose experience would violate the three laws of sentient experience.  This is true for ants and bees and any other hive-like organism.

Imagineable that some being may never die - could just go on forever (if the universe does...). May just swallow the occassional galaxy to keep on ticking!


Immortality would not violate the three laws.  The immortal entity would still experience reality as selfless/impermanent sensations and would have no permanent-separate-controller-self or Self.
.

There could be experiences that are well above and beyond what our minds can create. If we consider the small difference between a monkey and human, if there is a much large difference between human and more aadvanced creature they would devise concepts more appropriate for their needs. I'm sure monkeys think we would get by fine living on the monkey's terms


Of course there are experiences that will be above and beyond what a human experiences.  There are vast differences in evolution on just this planet.  Compare the difference between a house-fly and a human.  However, this does not negate the fact that neither the house-fly nor the human's experience violates the three laws of sentient experience. This is equally true for some incomprehensibly advanced organism beyond the human.


With advances in biology and computing we may see the emergence of things that push the dharma much further than imagineable. It would be a sad day if everything worth knowing was wrapped up 2500 years ago !


True, but any future dharma will include the three laws I have stated as they are the core feature of the dharma.  If beings are already born enlightened then this aspect of the dharma will become irrelevant, but there may be other aspects surrounding morality and well-being that may still be important.
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:35 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:35 PM

RE: post human meditation

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"Buddhist scripture says that when the dharma has decayed then in several thousand years another Buddha will arise to re-discover the teachings."

Why not ? Why not lots of buddha teachers showing our descendents the way on the bases on Neptune etc ?

"I already specifically pointed out that the vipassana stages could very well be different or non-existent for different creatures.  It isn't even always necessary for a human to go through the vipassana stages to get enligthened."

I do apologise, I missed that bit.
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:56 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/25/14 4:41 PM

RE: post human meditation

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If you're saying that a basic property of the universe is that it is in flux, and no sentient being will be able to disprove that - seems reasonable. Any being would have to be made of matter, and that is always in motion.

But what about universal heat death ?

I guess, in buddhism, heat death and the end of all change is not a valid concept ?
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 4:02 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 3:13 AM

RE: post human meditation

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If you're saying that a basic property of the universe is that it is in flux, and no sentient being will be able to disprove that - seems reasonable. Any being would have to be made of matter, and that is always in motion.


First of all we need to distinguish between experience and inanimate matter.  Our experiential experience is reliant on the properties of inanimate matter for its functioning, but this is not the same thing as that actual experiential experience.  The laws I listed above apply to sentient experience itself.

But what about universal heat death ?


Universal heat death applies only to this known Universe.  Assuming there are no other matter or some other "unknown/dark matter" based Universes that could support life, then there simply will be no sentient life if the Universe falls into a state of heat death (another theoretical option is callled the "big crunch," but is currently not in favor).  Since life is reliant on the properties of inanimate matter, then it would be impossible for there to be sentient life in such a scenario.

However, there could be other cosmic domains or Universes other than this one, and the possibility is high due to the anthropic principle.  Meaning it is extremely improbable to have a Universe with the ability to encode information in molecular structures (conditions that would support life).  This suggests that there could be an infinite number of Universes -- most of which would not be able to support the type of life based on the material properties that we know support life here on Earth.  However, other Universes open up a large number of other possibilities for the inanimate to support the animate.

It should also be noted that experiential experience is the only thing we have to infer the existence of inanimate matter. Inanimate matter is being inferred from the sensations of experience and as such it does not exist in the same tangible sense that actual experience does.  Inanimate matter is an abstraction from experiential reality, and not experiential reality itself.
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 3:59 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 3:59 AM

RE: post human meditation

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Why not ? Why not lots of buddha teachers showing our descendents the way on the bases on Neptune etc ?


Sure, why not?  I never refuted this notion.
ftw, modified 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 6:48 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 6:46 AM

RE: post human meditation

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If you allow me I'd like to relate to the subject with a little spin. 
Artificial Intelligence experts are saying it's only a matter of time when AI will reach and surpass human intelligence. I'm not thoroughly familiar with buddhist dogma or any others religion for that matter but if I recall correctly "ensoulment" takes place at some point in development of human embryo. Theoretically in future we will also be able to engineer a biocyborg replica of human being. Could ensoulment happen to AI and can AI get enlightened in classical sense?
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 12:59 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 12:59 PM

RE: post human meditation

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"another theoretical option is callled the "big crunch," but is currently not in favor"

Kaku likes this one.

"Our experiential experience is reliant on the properties of inanimate matter for its functioning, but this is not the same thing as that actual experiential experience.  The laws I listed above apply to sentient experience itself."

It's closer than reliant on, isn't it ? Experience is matter unless you propose a consciousness/matter dualism ? So are you getting at some sort of universal consciousness which is present at universal heat death, but with nothing happening to reflect on ?

So what kind of consciousness would that be ?
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 12:59 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/26/14 12:59 PM

RE: post human meditation

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You ever see The Demon Seed ?
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:43 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:03 AM

RE: post human meditation

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It's closer than reliant on, isn't it ? Experience is matter unless you propose a consciousness/matter dualism ? So are you getting at some sort of universal consciousness which is present at universal heat death, but with nothing happening to reflect on ?

So what kind of consciousness would that be ?


I'm not positing any consciousness at all upon the heat death of the Universe.  Just as I would not posit any consciousness on Earth if the Earth did not exist or if the Sun was too hot to support life on Earth.  Edit:  This might not rule out the possibility for sentience to arise if there are other Universes or sentience somehow arising beyond the ordinary material means for it in other Universes/planes (if they exist).

It's closer than reliant on, isn't it ? Experience is matter unless you propose a consciousness/matter dualism ? So are you getting at some sort of universal consciousness which is present at universal heat death, but with nothing happening to reflect on ?

So what kind of consciousness would that be ?


I'm not positing a dualism between the two since there is a direct, interdependent, causal relationship between experience and matter, but I'm not sure if "experience/sensations IS matter."

For example, are sensations made up of quarks which in turn are made into sub-atomic particles combined with electrons which then in turn form into atoms which then form into molecules which form into chemical substances which then form into DNA, cells, etc?  This seems to only apply to the operations of the material body which creates the sense of experience, but how is this actual experience itself?

Now we could posit that experience IS energy and that is fair enough.  However, all of our definitions of energy are with regard to material extrapolations from sensations/experience, so it is difficult to get a good definition exactly.  There is no absolute measure of energy.  It is determined by objects and their properties.  For example, the potential energy of a ball is determined by its height above the ground.  This has nothing to do with the properties of the actual sensations of seeing that ball sitting at a spot flickering on and off in actual experience.  There is the energy in a quanta of light or photon, but that is also not the same thing as the visual sensations flickering on and off which is simply an interpratation of that light by the brain after entering the eyes.

Also, if there is no difference between the two, then you would also have to consider whether or not "matter IS experience".... (If Experience = Matter then Matter = Experience)

For example, the Sun is way too hot to support life or consciousness so it would not make sense to say that the material operations of the Sun is the same thing as sentient experience.  However, could the Sun be our intepretation of the workings of another consciousness? Maybe, but that seems pretty out there...

There is some fundamental relationship between the two, but I'm not sure if anyone knows exactly what that is.
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:40 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:40 AM

RE: post human meditation

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You ever see The Demon Seed ?


Nope.  I'll have to check it out.
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:52 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:50 AM

RE: post human meditation

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If you allow me I'd like to relate to the subject with a little spin. 
Artificial Intelligence experts are saying it's only a matter of time when AI will reach and surpass human intelligence. I'm not thoroughly familiar with buddhist dogma or any others religion for that matter but if I recall correctly "ensoulment" takes place at some point in development of human embryo. Theoretically in future we will also be able to engineer a biocyborg replica of human being. Could ensoulment happen to AI and can AI get enlightened in classical sense?


My fundamental point in this thread was that the "soul" is an illusion or at most just a word used to conveniently describe a process.  What people are referring to as "ensoulment" is simply the first sensational experience that arises after conception.  

Now with A.I. we need to consider whether or not that A.I. possesses "experiential experience."  Unfortunately, this would probably be impossible to determine.  For example, I recently saw this movie called "Her" where a guy dates a very advanced A.I. voice that converses and acts like a real human.  Just because this A.I. seems sentient doesn't mean it actually would be.  It could have absolutely no internal sentient experience whatsoever and still seem like it does.  If it acts completely like it does, how would we be able to determine if it does or doesn't?  We wouldn't.  There would be no way to know if it has sensational experience or not.
Tom Tom, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:55 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 12:55 AM

RE: post human meditation

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Another example would be "Data" from Star Trek The Next Generation.  He is an android, but is he sentient?  He acts completely like he is, but are there internal sensations arising and vanishing within his experience?  One might presume that there isn't, but how would that be determined physically?  No one knows.
ftw, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 8:14 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 8:14 AM

RE: post human meditation

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Tom Tom:
If you allow me I'd like to relate to the subject with a little spin. 
Artificial Intelligence experts are saying it's only a matter of time when AI will reach and surpass human intelligence. I'm not thoroughly familiar with buddhist dogma or any others religion for that matter but if I recall correctly "ensoulment" takes place at some point in development of human embryo. Theoretically in future we will also be able to engineer a biocyborg replica of human being. Could ensoulment happen to AI and can AI get enlightened in classical sense?


My fundamental point in this thread was that the "soul" is an illusion or at most just a word used to conveniently describe a process.  What people are referring to as "ensoulment" is simply the first sensational experience that arises after conception.  

Now with A.I. we need to consider whether or not that A.I. possesses "experiential experience."  Unfortunately, this would probably be impossible to determine.  For example, I recently saw this movie called "Her" where a guy dates a very advanced A.I. voice that converses and acts like a real human.  Just because this A.I. seems sentient doesn't mean it actually would be.  It could have absolutely no internal sentient experience whatsoever and still seem like it does.  If it acts completely like it does, how would we be able to determine if it does or doesn't?  We wouldn't.  There would be no way to know if it has sensational experience or not.
Those are all very good points and questions.

So if we (our conscience) wouldn't be able to deny if sentient being is or isn't experiencing stuff, doesn't that make that "being" conscious? (turing test)
Why couldn't cyborgs procreate? Limits of nanotechnology are only in engineering. Building blocks are atoms.

Can we determine if non human being is conscious?
Amoeba is a sentient being right? It experiences it's surrounding. It surely is somewhat conscious?
Why couldn't a cyborg be conscious then?
Data from star trek had an emotion chip installed iirc. emoticon
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 10:11 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 10:11 AM

RE: post human meditation

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Pretty much go along with all that

"For example, the Sun is way too hot to support life or consciousness so it would not make sense to say that the material operations of the Sun is the same thing as sentient experience.  However, could the Sun be our intepretation of the workings of another consciousness? Maybe, but that seems pretty out there..."

I'm inclined to think that the Sun is exactly part of life. I don't really buy into the sentient-life-forms-trapped-in-a-dead-universe vision of things. We're intimately bound in with our environment - not least because our consciousness seems to paint our bodies and environment onto the same canvas at the same time as part of one complex system at which we are the tail end, as well as the direct perceptions of such things via meditation etc.
Whether the sun is a lifeform I haven't given that much thought though I've seen philosophical schemes which place it as such.
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Stick Man, modified 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 10:20 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 9/29/14 10:20 AM

RE: post human meditation

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"Another example would be "Data" from Star Trek The Next Generation.  He is an android, but is he sentient?"

Well, what about approaching it like this -
We don't seen Data the droid, what we see is a product of our neurons. As our neurons are a part of our life form everything, our perceptions, produced by them is an aspect of ourselves and as such Data is merely an aspect of our own sentience. If there is anything beyond that, it is not accessible.
So, basically, there is no artificial intelligence, only further iterations and extensions of our own - and we are alive.

I spent some time reading through Donald Hoffman's papers - he would hold that we cannot even grasp the true nature of our neurons - they are merely sensory representations of something else. I don't know where that leaves the issue.

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