Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

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Piers M, modified 9 Years ago at 9/23/14 4:03 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/23/14 4:03 PM

Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

Posts: 116 Join Date: 12/7/10 Recent Posts
But...am I wasting my time?

A bit of background may be useful to my dilema: After several years practicing in the Goenka tradition (2001-2009), I eventually switched to the Mahasi noting doing initially a 3 weeks retreat in Thailand. I have since done more Mahasi style retreats including (and I can't quite believe it as I write this now as it seems a long time ago and a rediculously long time to spend trying to crack the nut!) a 5 1/2 month stay at a Burmese monastery in Malaysia in 2012/13.
I also did recently (July) did a 1 month retreat in Thailand. Followed just 3 weeks later with a 1 week retreat in Manchester, U.K. at a branch center of Panditaramas (so that I could meet the Sayadaw there and obtain a recommendation). So, this has all duly been done and I made my initial inquiries for the 60-day course in May. Now accepted.

However, after all this I am now beginning to think that what I really need to do is develop good concentration and attain at least 1st Jhana so that I can then have a realistic chance of gaining some insight into the 3Cs.

I read in another thread (sorry can't give a link) some time ago, a question someone posed about going to Pa Auk in order to develop good concentration before then going to Panditarama. However, he was advised it would perhaps be distruptive to change not only centres but also techniques mid-way through a long time spent on retreat. He was also told that if he spent a long period of time at the Panditarama centre he would build up good concentration anyhow.

Now maybe that is true for some people. But after some long retreats in the Mahasi tradition and yes I have gotten something out of it and also I have developed some concentration along the way but NOT ENOUGH to gain insight into the 3Cs. 

Therefore, perhaps rather than going 60-days at U Pandita's place, I might be better off going to Pa Auk. I have also recently started Kasina practice in order to attain 1st Jhana through it. However, it is early days and so far it's just a couple of hours a day and I need some serious momentum such as a self retreat with 10-15 hours a day for 2-4 weeks which I'm thinking to organise somewhere in the coming weeks...

Not sure I've even posted this in the right category.....

Any comments welcome,
Thanks, Piers
Eudoxos , modified 9 Years ago at 10/3/14 2:08 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/3/14 2:08 AM

RE: Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

Posts: 136 Join Date: 4/6/14 Recent Posts
I'd say: trust the teacher in Panditarama; it is quite a respectable place and I'd assume they know their stuff. Mahasi Vipassana has elaborate theory aboult balancing the faculties (which you surely know), they should guide you (or, better said, if you keep instructions, that balance will establish itself) to have as much concentration as you need for insights, not too little and not too much.

Plus obligatory footnote (which drove me always crazy when I heard teachers telling me that): if you have doubt about the meditation, acknowledge doubt, if you have ambition for insight, acknowledge ambition; and go back to rising/falling.

Good luck!
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 9 Years ago at 10/3/14 4:36 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/3/14 4:36 PM

RE: Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
That is an impressive resume of retreats to not have the insights that would be expected from that. What did you do on those retreats? Did you note every second from the time you woke up until the time you went to sleep? How rapidly did you try to perceive things changing? How do you conceive of the practice and the results?
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Piers M, modified 9 Years ago at 10/3/14 5:27 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/3/14 5:27 PM

RE: Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

Posts: 116 Join Date: 12/7/10 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
That is an impressive resume of retreats to not have the insights that would be expected from that. What did you do on those retreats? Did you note every second from the time you woke up until the time you went to sleep? How rapidly did you try to perceive things changing? How do you conceive of the practice and the results?

When I was in Malaysia 2012/13, I certainly attempted to note every waking second. Nothing much happened for the first 3 months and I was almost going to jack it in had a visa run, break for a week, then went back and continued then I had a month or at least 3 weeks with the "best" concentration I've ever had, especially when sitting, almost no break in terms of awareness of rising and falling. That's when some other phenomena such as bright lights and extraordinarily wild physical shaking occurred (discussed this at length here back then) at which I thought I could "note my way out of" by being present and aware and noting every single twist shake jolt tremble etc but it only got worse at which point I became fearful (by this point it had been going on for about a week) and the teacher told me I had to actually stop it. ie not just "ride the wave" and note it which is what I thought I was supposed to do but open eyes or sit up straight or get up. But not continue to roll in it. So, yes, I continued practicing whilst attempting to note every waking second.

The shaking phenomena has not left (1+1/2 years on) but I am less disturbed by it and nearly always stop it if it starts coming on too strong by straightening up the body (usually does the trick) or even opening the eyes whilst noting what I'm doing whilst doing it. Thinking about it, even though I'm very used to it, I am probably somewhat irritated by it happening still. I want it to " go away " but it doesn't. I also fully accept now that I am causing it. Ajahn Amaro (chief monk at Amaravati) mentioned to me that he had had the same problem about 30 years back. It took him years to work through it. That gave me some grain of comfort that if such a senior monk had also struggled with it, I was not alone in that sense. I have now realized that there are a fair few others who struggle with it.
How rapidly did you try to perceive things changing? How do you conceive of the practice and the results?

I'm unable to perceive things at the rate you mention in MCTB (10 times per second). I am usually noting much more slowly than that. If I am walking or doing daily stuff on retreat then I'm noting just maybe once or twice a second my movements or thoughts. However at times this might slow further a little bit. When sitting, it's a bit faster than that, maybe 2 or 3 times a second at times.

The practice... well, I am wondering which direction to head in terms of practice. I feel like doing Kasina to help build concentration, but whilst doing this I am doing a lot of noting at the same time (of what I'm seeing). However, at times I also feel like doing "nada" sound practice as "the sound of silence" as it's been coined elsewhere comes up quite a lot for me too. Indeed on my last recent 1 week retreat, whilst doing walking meditation it so happened a few times that the sound came on so strong, I wasn't sure if I should stop walking altogether and just note "hearing hearing" continuously or else not even note it but just be with it.

Results? Well, I can see from the maps that I haven't progressed very far..... Is that what you mean?

Piers
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 9 Years ago at 10/4/14 3:22 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/4/14 3:22 AM

RE: Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Violent physical shaking and bright lights are the stage of the A&P, with Fear coming after that, as you describe. Thus, you have insights.

These things do commonly freak people out.

If you were in those stages, the standard advice is to realize that at that point your mind can go much faster than noting, which is slow and clunky, and drop to perceiving anything buzzing, vibrating, pulsing, all the way up and down the breath and in whatever else happens, basically without caring if the body shakes or not. It is best to practice this alone in your own room during that stage.
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Piers M, modified 9 Years ago at 10/5/14 4:17 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/5/14 3:37 PM

RE: Accepted onto 60-day Panditarama Retreat But...

Posts: 116 Join Date: 12/7/10 Recent Posts
[quote=Daniel M. Ingram

Violent physical shaking and bright lights are the stage of the A&P, with Fear coming after that, as you describe. Thus, you have insights.]

I See. I never considered these phenomena to be insights. As in understanding the workings of the 3Cs.

I just watched your map explanation video: 
http://vimeo.com/69475208
(It's almost 1/2 hr long and for anyone intersted there's also a useful map here)

I can relate to quite a lot of stuff mentioned roughly right up to what's called the "Desire for Deliverance" stage 9, and a few years ago when I first read your book it nearly blew my socks off because I ticked practically every box you mentioned for this stage vis: sorting out your financial and other worldly affairs in order to commit to retreat time, quitting work, fascination with celibacy etc.

I think one of my problems perhaps going right back to my first Goenka retreats is that I've been looking for "something else", maybe "something special" to happen. This is partly because Goenka says what "will" happen for Yogis on their first 10-day retreat or for some maybe 2 or 3 retreats and the way he describes it, it never happened for me after 20+ retreats so, I was a) wondering what's wrong with me (like as though everyone else is getting it and I'm not) and b) never really content to just be with what is happening (thinking something else should be happening).

These things do commonly freak people out.

If you were in those stages, the standard advice is to realize that at that point your mind can go much faster than noting, which is slow and clunky, and drop to perceiving anything buzzing, vibrating, pulsing, all the way up and down the breath and in whatever else happens, basically without caring if the body shakes or not. It is best to practice this alone in your own room during that stage.

Hopefully I can, it might depend on the center rules & regs vis. sitting along in your room. Maybe if things get too hectic, they'll realize it's necessary (for the other yogis too!).

I was just sitting today and for some reason remembered an experience from many years ago whilst on retreat (with a group of around 100 yogis in the main hall):
I was doing anapanasati at the nostrils when suddenly sound just "dropped away" for about 2-3 minutes. What I mean by this is that normally I was quite aware of when others may have coughed or sneezed etc, but for those few moments hearing just dropped to maybe 5 or 10% of normal and this was accompanied by calm feeling and not being disturbed by any sound at that time.

Is this most likely an A&P event?


Thanks, Piers


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