The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

The Last Step - Conversation Thread

Posts: 1312 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
I was inspired by Tom Tom's practise thread.
It seems to be getting hijacked a bit and I also want to jump in and chat about his practise....but I feel that since I am not fourth path that anything I say will just be more hijacking stuff....So here is a solution that lets me yammer on and not feel bad.

There are very few 3rd path to 4th path theads on the Dho. I would be very interested in what people are doing to get to 4th.

Tom Tom, what are you doing in what order and for how long...On cushion and off cushion? ( I realized I have been pretty lax with myself across the board compared to earlier paths esp. concentration exercises)
Tom Tom:
Most of my investigation during sits has been going toward investigation of the sensations in and around the neck and the subtle dualities between these and thoughts.  The main investigation has been the impermanence of these sensations, but a few sits have gone towards the unsatisfactory (dukkha) nature of them.  

Analysis off cushion has been toward a continuous dissection of agency.  A subtle sense of agency seems to be all that is left, and as I have stated, I experience no sense of time.

Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention. Investigation of neck sensations has been a priority, but this does not seem to exclude the other sensations much. There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

I've noticed that a lack of attention does not seem to mean I lack the ability to tune things out if I'm not listening.  For example, if I'm reading and people are talking I won't always know what they're saying since the focus is on what I'm reading and not what the people are saying.  I've been looking at this, and strangely, I tend to hear some jumble of sounds but it is not processed in a way that makes it understandable if the "focus" is on something else.  Whether this constitutes some form of attention or not I'm not sure.

A kick to the left-over sense of agency is my top priority and since sitting I have noticed some significant diminishment in agency when not on the cushion.  I'm still not where I want to be in terms of a 100% lack of agency, but I seem to be getting closer (quantitatively, it's currently at about 85%).   To what extent some remaining sense of attention may be creating some small sense of agency is also a consideration and is an additional thing I'll be analyzing in future sits.

The Attention thing is interesting, as is Focus, Choosing etc....they all seem to combine to create the illusion of agency. I have been playing with focus of the eyes trying to stay in panoramic mode without a focal point as my off the cushion practice. On the cushion I have been playing with noticing sensations and whether there is an internal quality or external quality to them. I think there is some spacial relational aspect that creates some of the agency...lets say that at 3rd path the sense of self in space goes away but what about all the external "objects" that are still in reference to where this hollowed out circle is? I am trying to vipassanaize this internal/external duality.I notice what my eyes are doing when I move back and forth...they try to change focus which I find strange especially when I move back and forth between the Nada sound and an external sound...I also move from thoughts to external objects....I have not tried to find permanent objects and dissolve them....interesting...
Gotta go meditate....hope you don't mind me starting this thread.
Good luck
~D
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Not Tao, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Isn't non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as "anatta" as panoramic mode?
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Not Tao:
Isn't non-panoramic mode with a focal point just as "anatta" as panoramic mode?

Is this a question?
T DC, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice. 

One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.

The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed. 

Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana's everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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T DC:
For me 3rd path to 4th path was mainly practice as usual, by which I mean noticing sensations with as much continuity in daily life and meditation as possible.  However, as I got close to 4th path several notable things happened in my practice. 

One, as Daniel mentions, cycling started to become rapid as well as somewhat background.  By rapid I mean I would go through a cycle, maybe two in a 30 min session of sitting.  By background I mean they started to matter much less.  Where as prior cycling had been a major thing, fruitions were awesome and came with a sense of relief, near 4th path I began to care less and less about where I was at in the cycles.

The second major shift in my practice was an ability to note sensations regardless of external conditions.  Whereas before I would have much prefered a quiet space to meditate, close to 4th path I could simply note external sounds and disturbances and continue undisturbed. 

Also during this time I was practicing the Jhana's everynight as I went to sleep, kindof to put myself out, maybe the concentration practice helped..
Thanks T DC for your straight forward approach of just noting sensations...have continued to note things but changed from 6 senses to proprioception spacial relational sensations/thoughts since second path.
The Nanas cycles are doing thier own thing in the background mostly with DN kicking me for a couple minutes to hours where they seem very in my face misery but nothing like in the past.  I sometimes get up to 4 cessations in a sit....sometimes none...they are not blissful afterwards and very much like a little blip and some clarity.
I practice at the gym every day with a ton of noise...been doing that for years...lately Ive noticed that the disturbing noises have a outside and inside quality to them.
I have been decoupling my concentration practice from my loving kindness practice and trying to get much more concentrated....I also have been practising concentration every night to fall asleep and naps...been doing that for years....If I wake up from a nap I am usually vibrating very hard in third jhana.
Thanks for the input,
~D
Russell ., modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold (as actively 'letting go' is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen's 'Do Nothing' practice?
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Russell .:
Dreamwalker, what I see in your post is a whole lot of doing, striving, changing technique.  This struggle is typical in 3rd path, but you have to remember, nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold (as actively 'letting go' is still doing something)  Have you ever watched the video on youtube of Shinzen's 'Do Nothing' practice?
I have gotten a lot of this advice. Can you go into detail of what I actually should do?
Should I sit?
If so why?
What should I do while sitting?
How long should the sits be?
How often?
What should I do off the cushion?
If something, why?

I am really curious on what others have done/not done and what those results were.
I am quite frustrated in the lack of good advice after second path. I can't even really get some good old honest "I have no idea what I did"
I have explained exactly what I did to get third path and the results here - Looking for help getting to 3rd path
Now I am putting out there the things I am doing in an attempt to land 4th. There are very few threads that discuss this stuff and NONE seem to have people revisiting threads to update what happened....this "got mine" see ya later attitude sucks...{venting and ranting mode off}
Please help by answering if you would be so kind.
Thanks a bunch....team sport dharma
~D
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Russell .:
nothing that you can do with make it tip.  Try to relax a bit and let the letting go process unfold

The Last Step - Practice Log
Daniel Ingram:
simply went brutally for the heart of the thing using a very simple assumption: if no sensation is allowed to ever arise and vanish again without clear comprehension of the Three Characteristics of it, including everything that seemed to be left in that maddening little space warp, then eventually the last illusion will fall. This proved to be the case.

So here are two extremes... the "letting go process unfolding" and the "Brute force" method.
I wonder if there is a middle path to these approaches....I am exploring this idea. Is there a precursor to agentlessness that can be seen clearly and vipassanaized/noted?
A while back I had a 5 minute preveiw of some state...possibly 4th. The predominate shift was that everything was just where is was, stresslessly. Was there an agent? I didn't even look...it didn't occur to me to even try...I was just enjoying everthing being so absolutely ordinarily.
So things are not "just where they are" anymore....so I am investigating this....what makes things locationally where they are? what spacial relationship do they have to each other and to the "center"....
Can I see it clear enought to "let go" again? We shall see (pun intended)
~D
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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I've been thinking pretty much exactly what's written in this thread. I may be fooling myself in thinking I'm in anagami territory, though.

This part of the Hurricane Ranch talk might help
KF: Yes. It’s karma-sila. I feel like we’re gonna have to wrap this pretty soon, because I’m getting very tired, but there’s one thing I’d like to touch upon before we close. We’ve talked about license. And earlier, Tarin and I talked about permission. Giving yourself permission to be enlightened wouldn’t be possible to overestimate how important that is.
DI: Or even to concentrate. Or even to engage energy.
KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’regonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.

I have the same questions as you, so,
http://i.imgur.com/RvbgtzE.jpg
Tom Tom, modified 6 Years ago.

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KF: Yes. It’s karma-sila. I feel like we’re gonna have to wrap this pretty soon, because I’m getting very tired, but there’s one thing I’d like to touch upon before we close. We’ve talked about license. And earlier, Tarin and I talked about permission. Giving yourself permission to be enlightened wouldn’t be possible to overestimate how important that is.
DI: Or even to concentrate. Or even to engage energy. 
KF: Right. I agree. But I really wanna go, take this all the way to the end. At some point, in order to be done with the Insight Disease, you’regonna have to say, I give myself permission to be with this! The lack of permission can hold you up for decades, I believe. And it might be a nice idea to reflect on. For anyone infected with this pernicious disease, to consciously reflect upon this. Have I suffered enough? Have I suffered enough? Have I done enough work? Have I gained the credibility of all my peers? And then ask yourself: Do I care? Or do I really want to be done? If I really want to be done, I’m going to have to give myself permission. And it might not happen in one step. Most people are going to reflect upon this for some time.


I'm going to have to disagree with Kenneth on this one.  Why is 4th path so special that this applies to 4th, but not to any other path?  Would you say that stream-entry is reaching high equanimity and getting conformity, change of lineage, path, and then fruition or would you say stream-entry is when you "give yourself permission" to be a stream-enterer.  I'm going to go with the former.  However, this doesn't exclude the possibility that "giving yourself permission" might cause the former to happen.

Kenneth is coming from a different perspective where he sought enlightenment to the exclusion of everything else for over 20 years.  His model of what 4th path is is different than Daniel's.  In my thread that inspired this thread I specifically wrote that I was describing what 4th path is according to Daniel Ingram's criteria.  A 100% lack of all agency is not a defining criteria for 4th path according to Kenneth Folk   Kenneth Folk places the end of agency at a stage much farther along than what he calls "4th path." I feel that I more than meet Kenneth's 4th path criteria, and have for several years now.
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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I would think that giving yourself permission has to happen at every path. Of course, high EQ is the ideal time to give yourself permission. At the very least, if one doesn't believe they will get a path (unconsciously or consciously) I highly doubt they'll get it.

I don't think Kenneth was implying that giving yourself permission is a sufficient condition. I think he was implying that it's a necessary condition. I'm sure he would agree that one should have their developmental ducks in a row. And, clearly, after 20 years of developmental meditation Kenneth did.
A 100% lack of all agency is not a defining criteria for 4th path according to Kenneth Folk   Kenneth Folk places the end of agency at a stage much farther along than what he calls "4th path."
Source for this?
Tom Tom, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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I think he was implying that it's a necessary condition.


Probably not necessary, but helpful, yes.

Source for this?


This is directly quoted from Kenneth's Folk's previous website.  End of agency (or "crushing blow" to agency) occurs at stage 8 whereas 4th path occurs at stage 5.

Enlightenment is not binary (as in “you either have it or you don’t), but exists on a continuum from totally clueless on one end of the spectrum to full and complete enlightenment on the other. Every person on Earth can be plotted at some point on this continuum at some particular point in time. The hope is that one moves further and further along the scale throughout his or her life. Below is a 9 stage map of this developmental process. The model is a work in progress; I will add more detail and update it as I learn more, including adding additional levels if necessary. I am publishing it now in the hope that meditators will find it useful in their own practice and in helping others to awaken. There are some obvious flaws in this kind of map, not least of which is that in order to make sense of it, one must have a solid working knowledge of Theravada Buddhist concepts including the Progress of Insight, jhana, and nirodha samapatti. I apologize for these shortcomings and welcome feedback on how to make the map more accessible across traditions without losing the high level of resolution included here.

Stage 1 (sometimes called KF1 for convenience and to distinguish from similar stage maps): The 4th Insight Knowledge, Arising and Passing away of Phenomena, aka A&P. Read about the first five Insight Knowledges here. How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this. It usually takes just a few weeks of weekly Skype coaching or several days in intensive retreat. I’ve guided dozens of students to this stage and many of my students already have it by the time they contact me. This is the point at which someone is well and truly bitten by the meditation bug.

Stage 2: Stream Entry. Practitioner has completed all 16 Insight Knowledges. (Mahasi 1st Path) Read about the Insight Knowledges 5-10 here. (Follow the link at the bottom of the page for Insight Knowledges 11-16.) There are inaccuracies in this essay and places where my current understanding no longer matches what I wrote there, but in the interest of getting this all in one place, I’ll save the revisions for later. How common is stream entry? I expect all my students to attain this stage and they nearly always do. I’ve seen dozens of students get this far.

Stage 3: Practioner has developed through all 16 Insight Knowledges for a second time. (Mahasi 2nd Path). How common is this stage? I expect all my students to attain this stage and they almost always do if they stick with the program. Anyone who has attained KF2 has all the tools necessary to attain KF3. It’s just a matter of continuing on with regular, targeted practice.

Stage 4: Practioner has access to the Pure Land jhanas and Nirodha Samapatti. (One interpretation of Mahasi 3rd Path) Here is a fascinating insight map from the Theravada, based on the 31 Realms of Existence. Notice numbers 23-27, which are said to only be available to 3rd Path practitioners and beyond. These are the Pure Land jhanas. The “Pure Land jhanas” terminology is my own invention; I first accessed “PL1” by doing a Pure Land Buddhist practice of invoking the name of Amitabha Buddha, which is said to transport you instantly to the Pure Land. It worked, after a fashion, so I dubbed the experience a "Pure Land jhana." This was circa 1994, and the name has stuck. How common is this stage? Many of my students get this far, but it is not as common as the first 3 stages because it requires a greater level of concentration.

Stage 5: The tipping point. Practitioner has a profound sense of completion, as though “done is what needs to be done.” (One interpretation of the 4th Path of Enlightenment. And here is my 2010 commentary on interpretation of the 4-Path model.) The longing to be enlightened seems to have melted away. With further ripening at this stage, it will be seen that there is more to be done; the practitioner still experiences many of the old neurotic patterns, but has some distance from them. “It’s still happening, but it doesn’t seem to be happening to me,” is a common report. How common is this stage? As a rough estimate, I’ve guided 20-25 or so folks to this stage over the last 5 years. I occasionally meet someone who has come to this through some other system. At this stage, the practitioner is identified with emotional feelings rather than a conceptual self. So he or she will resist and argue with more advanced practitioners about what comes next...

Stage 6: Emotional transformation. Marked attenuation of feelings. (See Damasio’s Looking for Spinoza for the distinction between emotions and feelings. Feelings are the subjective component of emotions. Emotions can and do carry on without the corresponding feelings, as emotions and feelings happen in different parts of the brain.) Practitioner may still display full range of emotions as observed by others while reporting only contentment, well-being, acceptance, etc. This new emotional stability sets the stage for...

Stage 7: Proprioceptive selfing is seen clearly. From the platform of the emotionally stable mind, it becomes possible to see that certain sensations, especially around the face, eyes, and forehead, are sporadically signaling “this is I, me, mine.” See Metzinger’s comments about Ronald Melzac’s neuromatrix and “a kind of proprioception that is so subtle, it’s almost unconscious” (paraphrased from memory, but here is the video). When the moments of operation of this proprioceptive selfing are juxtaposed, moment by moment, with non-selfing moments, the selfing is seen as painful and the mind conditions itself to stop doing it. This proprioceptive selfing seems to operates at several layers, however, because it comes back at a subtler level, as do feelings of fear, irritation, and aversion. Here is a Youtube video in which I sketch out the first 7 stages. (At the time, I did not know there were more stages available.)

Stage 8: A deepening of the insights from stages 6 and 7, plus a crushing blow to the ownership and agency aspects of selfing. (See Metzinger, The Ego Tunnel, for more on ownership and agency as components of selfing.) Practitioner feels very “enlightened” at this point, even somewhat alien as compared to “normal” people. Lots of disorientation. At times some sense of “divine retardation,” in which practitioner feels him or herself losing interest in some things that mattered previously, while simultaneously feeling profoundly OK with these changes. Life gets simpler as unnecessary ideas and attachments slough off. Friends can drift apart if some neurotic need no longer needs to be fulfilled. Conventions and concepts soften in favor of “this is happening now.” Disorientation becomes the norm and one adapts to it. Some motivations, e.g., need for social status, need to be right, need to please others, which began to lose steam at KF5, fade further. How common is this stage? I personally know at least seven people, five of whom are my students or former students. As of this writing (April, 2012), I also consider myself to be at this stage.)

Stage 9: Edit, 26JUL2012: Hmmm... Don't know yet. Staying open to possibilities.

Kenneth Folk
May 2012


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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Hmm, this model looks like a mess to me. I see why Daniel keeps emotional and conventional stuff out of his models.

Has there been a public discussion about the difference between Daniel and Kenneth's 4th path criteria?
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

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Droll Dedekind:
Has there been a public discussion about the difference between Daniel and Kenneth's 4th path criteria?
Yes,
If you go back to the early days of the Dho when Kenneth was on and read some of the threads there is some interesting stuff...add the levels from AEN Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment and things get really interesting in mapping systems.
Daniel attained some time pressure synchonization thingy which he has not explained whether this is 4th path or something more...I can't wait to see what updates Daniel has in MCTB 2.
~D
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

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If Alan Chapman writes a book with that new enlightenment model posted on Duncan's blog we'll have ourselves a real dharma showdown.

I just want offtheride-ship. KF-4th sounds fine to me

I can't find the old threads.. Anyone got a link?
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

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It might have been over on the old KFD forum...which is now here -> http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kunena-show-kfd
It would take a while to find all the relevent posts...good luck...it's been years.
try the google----> site:http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kunena-show-kfd termtosearchfor
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Jeff Grove, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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I think fourth path is a unique experience for each person as there is no special insight to be gained. For me cycles continued with an impetus to investigate and then there was a moment when I got the joke. It was like one of those lame one line jokes that you miss but after a period of time it finally clicked and the impact from the simplicity and even how corny the joke was made me laugh and laugh.

What Droll pointed out about permission as a condition may have played  into it, which is similar to how making a resolution to get a path can play an important role. After that intent seems to change as everything is how it is - perfect. The end of insight dis ease

Turning inward to investigate the sense of agency I found new clarity there is no inner place, its creation the very act of looking for it. Look inward to where, there is no location, no depth or width no boundary between inside and out, only the reflexive act. The mind (or awareness) knowing itself as an object of itself.

 Practicing AF techniques has lead to more insights after this as there are a great set of tools to discover the feeling self, that swirl of energies, passions or the movement we take as will, the reflexive mechanism we experience as life.
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Teague, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

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Dream Walker:
There are very few threads that discuss this stuff and NONE seem to have people revisiting threads to update what happened....this "got mine" see ya later attitude sucks...{venting and ranting mode off}
Please help by answering if you would be so kind.
Thanks a bunch....team sport dharma
~D

Alright D, you better stick around after you get fourth.  I'll take it upon myself to pester you if you don't.  :-)

-T
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

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Tom Tom:
Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention...There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

So I took a look at attention during today's meditation. What I mean by attention is the gap when you are observing the sensations/thoughts and are not lost within then. Basic mindfulness stuff. I was not getting any sensations from awareness/attention/focus. It seemed to be very binary...either ON and I was stepped back looking at stuff or OFF and wrapped up in the stuff. I wonder if this is the super space that is holding everything else, or if this is the warp; the feeling of choosing or selecting the focus, attention.... I need to investigate this a bit, it kinda reminds me of the old shine the spotlight of attention back on itself....I guess that can't hurt to try.
~D
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Jeff Grove, modified 6 Years ago.

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Dream Walker:
Tom Tom:
Some sitting time has also been spent trying to analyze what is left of attention.  I seem to have little to no sense of attention...There are only sensations and whatever arising and passing mental sensations that might be thought of as attention are seen as only more mental sensations.

So I took a look at attention during today's meditation. What I mean by attention is the gap when you are observing the sensations/thoughts and are not lost within then. Basic mindfulness stuff. I was not getting any sensations from awareness/attention/focus. It seemed to be very binary...either ON and I was stepped back looking at stuff or OFF and wrapped up in the stuff. I wonder if this is the super space that is holding everything else, or if this is the warp; the feeling of choosing or selecting the focus, attention.... I need to investigate this a bit, it kinda reminds me of the old shine the spotlight of attention back on itself....I guess that can't hurt to try.
~D


careful your not reifying a container that holds everything i.e. just another form of self

trying to understand whats refered to here sometimes as the attention bounce and what is happening, I think has been complicated in the discussions

On - selecting the focus or attention is just present moment awareness\knowing the present moment or bare attention
Off - when wrapped up in other stuff is reflection, reflective or reflexive knowing, mind taking itself as an object whether as feelings or thoughts giving a past or future projections
The change would be between knowing or reflective/reflexive knowing which is also tied up as the self getting in and out of the way
Rist Ei, modified 6 Years ago.

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In my eyes it seems that MCTB is all about insights when there is no self. But by doing it, it denys the truth that there is self. Thats why MCTB does not penetrate into self nature what is devoid of all marks of existence and its still real and open to all the wonderful experiences and transformations.
Conceptual mind will be gone like fire when it is extinguished and whats left is selfnature or buddha nature and thats You.

Body is used to realize self nature, body is like 10 years lifespan delay copy of your mind. I used the knowledge of left and right channels and middle channel to finally realize my own essence.
An Eternal Now, modified 6 Years ago.

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Rist Ei:
In my eyes it seems that MCTB is all about insights when there is no self. But by doing it, it denys the truth that there is self. Thats why MCTB does not penetrate into self nature what is devoid of all marks of existence and its still real and open to all the wonderful experiences and transformations.
Conceptual mind will be gone like fire when it is extinguished and whats left is selfnature or buddha nature and thats You.

Body is used to realize self nature, body is like 10 years lifespan delay copy of your mind. I used the knowledge of left and right channels and middle channel to finally realize my own essence.
The direct realization of Spirit, the luminous Essence is important. It is the direct touch of one's awareness, consciousness, the Presence of Heart/Mind even without thought, sight, sound, etc. However this taste can be easily misunderstood. Insight into nondual and no-self allows us to see that Consciousness -- in its formless state of existence/Mind is simply one facet/manifestation of consciousness relating to mind-consciousness, only misunderstood as an unmanifest ultimate Self behind everything.

There is no Source/Consciousness/etc behind anything, Source/Consciousness/etc IS the thing, the manifestation, and depending on conditions manifests as the expanse of colours, sights, sounds, taste, or the formless expanse of Mind when 5 senses and gross thoughts are shut off. In seeing only the seen, no seer, in hearing just sound, no hearer. Consciousness manifests (or IS the manifestation) according to conditions, there is no particular state of consciousness that is more pure or ultimate as compared to another manifestation. Each manifestation of consciousness -- the smell of cigarette, the taste, the colours... the sounds of bird chirping or traffic... everything is completely unique, perculiar, manifesting according to conditions without any I/hearer/seer or self/Self behind them. The whole universe is totally wonderful, incredibly alive, intelligent, and as vivid and luminous and intense as each experience is without an experiencer, they vanish without a trace like drawing images on the pond (it is not the 'pond' that is the point but the traceless drawing that is what consciousness is -- there is no background substratum). Each manifestation of consciousness is equal in taste and intensity as the Heart, the formless Presence or sense of Existence. As real as any state of consciousness is, but they all manifest according to conditions and are empty and unreal.

The purpose of anatta is to have full blown experience of the Mind by realizing there is no Mind (existing in and of itself as a Subject behind activities and experiences) -- so that Mind/Awareness is experienced boundlessly, completely, non-dually and non-locally. In every situations, in all conditions, in all events. It is to eliminate unnecessarily contrivity so that our essence can be expressed without obscuration.

Therefore one must lose all mind and body by feeling with entire mind and body this essence which is 心 (heart/mind). Yet 心 too is ungraspable/unobtainable.. The purpose is not to deny 心 but rather not to place any limitations or duality so that 心 can fully manifest. Therefore without understanding conditions,is to limit Mind. Without understanding conditions, is to place limitation in its manifestations.

What I experienced and expressed is similar to http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

That being said, as Thusness said before in 2009, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/04/emptiness-as-viewless-view.html

"An interesting point worth mentioning is about the maps and techniques detailed in Daniel's MCTB (Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha).
It is a very systematic way of leading one step by step towards the
full integration of the transience. It is also the state of "No Mind"
in Zen. Paraphrasing from Kenneth, "once we are familiar with the
vocabulary, we are effectively talking the same stuff". That said, I
think what lacks in the approach of MCTB is an effective way to allow
practitioners to have adequate experience of the vividness, realness and
presence of Awareness and the full experience of these qualities in the
transience. Without which it will not be easy to realize that "the
arising and passing sensations are the very awareness itself." A
balance is therefore needed, otherwise practitioners may experience
equanimity but skew towards dispassion and lack realization.


Lastly, if full integration of the source and transience is completely
realized and spontaneously perfected, then all words are futile and it
becomes quite pointless muddling over views as I have indicated in the
post below to Kenneth and xsurf. But before undergoing the twofold
Emptiness purification of the tendencies, it is advisable not to dispel the teaching of 'Emptiness' as irrelevant too quickly. :-)"

<-- this is also related to a recent breakthrough I had.


And as Daniel said quite recently,


Daniel: "So you have these two extremes -
both of which I find pretty annoying (laughs) - and uhm, not that they
are not making interesting points that counterbalance each other. And
then, from an experiential point of view, the whole field seems to be
happening on its own in a luminous way, the intelligence or awareness
seems to be intrinsic in the phenomena, the phenomena do appear to be
totally transient, totally ephemeral. So I would reject from an
experiential point of view, something in the harshness of the dogma of
the rigid no-selfists that can't recognise the intrinsic nature of
awareness that is the field. If that makes sense. Cos they tend to feel
there's something about that's sort of (cut off?)..."

Interviewer: "And not only awareness..."

Daniel: "Intelligence. Right, and I also reject from an experiential point of
view the people who would make this permanent, something separate from,
something different from just the manifestation itself. I don't like the
permanence aspect because from a Buddhist technical point of view I do
not find anything that stands up as permanent in experience. I find that
quality always there *while there is experience.* Because it's
something in the nature of experience. But it's not quite the same thing
as permanence, if that makes sense. So while there is experience, there
is experience. So that means there is awareness, from a certain point
of view, manifestation - awareness being intrinsically the same thing,
intrinsic to each other. So while there is experience, I would claim
that element (awareness) is there - it has to be for there to be
experience. And I would claim that the system seems to function very
lawfully and it's very easy to feel that there's a sort of intelligence,
ok, cool... ...the feeling of profundity, the feeling of
miraculousness, the wondrous component. So as the Tibetans would say,
amazing! It all happens by itself! So, there is intrinsically amazing
about this. It's very refreshingly amazing that the thing happens, and
that things cognize themselves or are aware where they are,
manifestation is truly amazing and tuning into that amazingness has
something valuable about it from a pragmatic point of view."- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNg-gps9O0w
Rist Ei, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
hi, yep i was wrong.
i have been doing lots of scripting and wrong thoughts. 

For now what i have thinking is that i have attained 2nd jhana.

1jhana- i used effort to contemplate or mediate on pure mind. 
2jhana- this months i broke into a state from where i haven't come down, meditation on pure mind is effortless now.

between 1st and 2nd there were lots of different levels. There is circle of birth and death, this circle consists of distinctive parts to what the self is identifing itself with, so it will get stuck then i need to use my effort to get over it, this way there got resolved lots of blocks till the circle is completed fully and then comes a stage where i don't get stuck anymore and circle circles effortlessly now.

technically the self got transformed or destroyed or brought over above the circling. There is circling but the i does not get lost into some stage within it but it gets lost into thinking time to time but if i recover then im on that effortless meditation again.
Rist Ei, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
got stuck, realised that i was clinging to effortless, found its source, it disappeared.
after some refining another insight rises it evolves into view, it matures- its time to abandon it. If i don't i am under its spell and stuck.
Jeremy May, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

Posts: 191 Join Date: 8/12/14 Recent Posts
I don't know how to message you.  Sorry to interrupt, but Rist, I wanted you to see this link.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNW3Gua6hmc
The two pillars represent ahats and bodhisattvas.  The pillars together represent the Buddhas.  

If you have figured messaging out, please message me your thoughts. 
Rist Ei, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

Posts: 500 Join Date: 7/14/13 Recent Posts
Jeremy May:
I don't know how to message you.  Sorry to interrupt, but Rist, I wanted you to see this link.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNW3Gua6hmc
The two pillars represent ahats and bodhisattvas.  The pillars together represent the Buddhas.  

If you have figured messaging out, please message me your thoughts. 
i think these symbols are pointing to alchemy.
thumbnail
Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: The Last Step - Conversation Thread

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
Yo Dream,

I've been obsessing over the centerpoint, with little regard to where I'm at on the cycle, although I've noticed apparent cycling. I'm just realizing this is probably an inoptimal strategy. How do you handle cycling? Do you pay attention to it strategically, breaking up w/ 3Cs the salient aspects of each nana? And, what nana do you practice concentration in? A&P or EQ? I realize too that I should try to master jhanas more thoroughly.

My tentative new strategy:
Pay attention to the cycles enough so that I know what's coming at me in each 'level of the game', as it were, and try not to go insane about anagami subsubcycles. Where possible, take time in the A&P and EQ to bolster concentration, balancing it with a little vipassana. Only attempt to look through the subtlest center stuff in high EQ.

I welcome any feedback on my strategy. How's yers goin?