Fear of happiness

Max, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:00 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:00 PM

Fear of happiness

Posts: 14 Join Date: 5/26/14 Recent Posts
This is definitely a morality being-in-the-world question.  I was doing some introspection and concluded that "x, y, z is bothering me" but it occurred to me that I deal directly with the question of conditional vs unconditional happiness, because when would not have some recent failure, disappointment, mistake, defect, personal imperfection to point to utilize as a reference point?  I observed that I try to stop myself from experiencing too much pleasure because I strongly believe that can lead to addictive and socially irresponsible behavior.  And I fear becoming too "unconditionally happy" can lead to my becoming a sociopathic, moral monster.  I imagine I'd always have some empathy, but there are enough people I don't like and I've had enough experiences of anger/rage/disgust that I know I need something like anticipated unhappiness and shame and guilt to constrain me.  I want to hear your thoughts on conditional vs unconditional happiness and eudaimonistic/hedonic self-regulation.  Thoughts, comments, book recommendations, etc. highly welcome and encouraged.
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:20 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:20 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Max, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:23 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:23 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Richard Zen:

Thanks, I'll grab it.  Please post anything else that comes to mind.  Anything about my line of thought you could critique/add to?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:38 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:36 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Max:
Richard Zen:

Thanks, I'll grab it.  Please post anything else that comes to mind.  Anything about my line of thought you could critique/add to?

Insight meditation reduces addictiveness and that in turn reduces stress. It's not likely to lead to you becoming a moral monster or a hedonist with less addiction.

The other book that can help with beliefs (because that's what CBT is good at) is Focusing by Gendlin. It's a little like meditation but not quite.

Strong metta practice can help you with hatred if you do it for a solid year or more.
Max, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:53 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 10:53 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Have you ever suffered from big self-loathing and self-depreciation?  Excessive caretaking? Could metta practice make that worse?

PS: Book is on the way.
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:06 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:06 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Yes but that was because I didn't check beliefs. When I saw that some selfish behaviours were actually responsibilities I could let go of the wrong beliefs and have the healthy ones. This is important in a world where ridiculous beliefs are fostered upon us by politicians, pop culture, friends, family, etc.  That's why CBT books like the one I recommended to you are so helpful. How you think affects how you feel and how you feel affects what you do. Meditation can only be enhanced when there are proper beliefs that are sane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQqSF8bQckI
Max, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:09 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:09 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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That's honestly why I avoided metta/loving-kindness books, I thought they would make my caretaking and boundary issues worse.  You've given me the hope of possibly dealing with that.  The book you recommended is on the way, I'll let you know what happens. Thank you.  I know I need to get really clear and specific about my dysfunctional beliefs to get through this.
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 12:02 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:42 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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In practice Metta is useful against people you hate because people you hate can live rent free inside your head. By forgiving them and wishing they weren't insane you relieve your mind of the worry and that makes you more functional. Stress makes people less resiliant, more tired and less functional. In this world you can't be a doormat and meditation doesn't mean you have to. Buddhism is about skillfulness and if you have to use anger in a good way (because the beliefs are rational beyond your bias) then you'll be fine. BTW believing that anger shouldn't be there is just another aversion. Welcome the anger and think about the correct response beyond your current anger so it isn't rash.

Try to be The Man with No Name and develop resiliance and be cool under fire and make proper decisions at the right time. Just asking "is this skillful?" is a good question to ask before you do something you might regret.

Max, modified 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:54 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 9/30/14 11:54 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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1) It's not the best time to express anger
2) I shouldn't be angry ever.

Definitely the first thought is more skillful.
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Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 1:17 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 1:02 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Cultivating unconditional happiness (as in, happiness for no reason) is a great way to cultivate both morality and responsibility. If you are happy for no reason, then no one can do anything to challenge this happiness. No one is a threat, so you will have no reason to feel malice. Also, an unconditional happiness would mean you are happy no matter what you're doing, so there would be no reason to shirk responsibilities.

I think I can understand where you're coming from because I've been dealing with some anxiety about my work situation lately. I realized this anxiety was trying to coax me into working harder - like a kind of memory aid "I should be working..." always in the back of my mind. It actually stopped me from working hard, though, because it felt so awful. It can feel reckless to let go of those kinds of emotions, but you can rest assure they're completely useless. Just do a simple test for yourself. Say to yourself, "Just for today, I'm going to let go of these emotional reminders and let myself be completely spontaneous - just to see how I react to things." When I did that, I worked for 10 hours straight and then enjoyed some TV. It was just a great day. Giving up my trust in those negative feelings was pretty easy after that.

If you feel like you can't be a good person without guilt - see how you respond if you forget about guilt for a day and just "be naked" emotionally around other people. Just like visiting nude beach - it'll feel a little wrong at first, but after a bit you realize how free you can feel. emoticon
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 5:49 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 5:30 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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re Max (9/30/14 10:00 PM)
"I observed that I try to stop myself from experiencing too much pleasure … And I fear becoming too "unconditionally happy" can lead to my becoming a sociopathic, moral monster.  I imagine I'd always have some empathy, but there are enough people I don't like and I've had enough experiences of anger/rage/disgust that I know I need something like anticipated unhappiness and shame and guilt to constrain me.  ..."


Bear with me as I cite some mainline Theravadan teaching here, but I think it can relate here in practice.

Richard Zen (9/30/14 10:38 PM as a reply to Max. )
"…Insight meditation reduces addictiveness and that in turn reduces stress…"


Many traditional teachers hold that G.Buddha's teachings tend towards a balancing of insight/ vipassana and concentration / samatha practices, to help smooth out the rough edges (dukkha) of everyday personal experience. Practically speaking, deep concentration, i.e. Jhanas, provides an experience of pleasure, of happiness that is termed "blameless," that is, it doesn't incline to unskillful, damaging actions, thoughts, etc. It doesn't depend on anyone or anything else, and in fact can provide satisfaction that outshines (with practice) the fleeting pleasures, happiness we tend to seek in external sensual things, or from other people. When strongly developed (inner pleasure/happiness), the alure of the latter (external, dependent pleasure/happiness) begins to fade. Trading candy for gold, it is said. This works (in my experience).

BUT, developing strong concentrative ability can trigger dangerous psychological side-effects in people beset with excessive "stuff" (to use an MCTB term, and as abundantly documented in MCTB ). With or without such risk, concentration is best worked on with the help of good teaching. If one is reasonably balanced, psychologically, such help can be gleaned from books or dharma talks. If threatening stuff comes up too quickly, too strongly when approaching concentration, then skilled personal guidance is essential. And, contrary to much popular 'dharma', jhana is accessible to the vast majority of people (as, I recall, is also a point made clear in MCTB ).

As to the complementary interplay of insight and concentration practices, the former can be strenuous, exhausting, and the latter can provide a refreshing break, honing the mind to enhance insight, and bringing forth new bodily energies to facilitate plunging back into the hard work of insight investigation.This traditional combination of insight and concentration and helps build a sustainable, as well as progress-making practice.

That's also not to say that some stages of serious practice don't get into places that can't be so readily smoothed out (A&P, Dark Night,…); the balanced practice skills sketched above are of benefit in many stages of path.

"…Strong metta practice can help you with hatred if you do it for a solid year or more..."

Max (9/30/14 11:09 PM as a reply to Richard Zen)
"…I avoided metta/loving-kindness books, I thought they would make my caretaking and boundary issues worse."


Metta practice could actually be a great tool for dealing with "caretaking and boundary issues."

It is popularly called "loving-kindness," but some teachers caution that "goodwill" (Than-Geof) or "benevolence" (Ven. Analayo) are perhaps better translations to work with, as "loving" is too close to, has strong associations with infatuation or affection ("pema"in Pali) and its all-to-common tendency towards personal craving and clinging.

The standard practice, as we know, is taught as stages of imaging and projecting warm feelings toward oneself, then benefactors, friends, neutral people, enemies, etc. And this practice is developmentally useful. The core teachings of G. Buddha, however, frame metta (and all the brahmaviharas: including compassion, appreciation, equanimity) as "immeasurable", or "unbounded" qualities of mind/heart. That is to say, after doing the standard practices a while (as Richard Zen points out above), one forms in the mind/heart a solid presence of goodwill that stands by itself – that isn't bound by an agent "me" that's being loving, compassionate, etc. and is not bound by the image of another, recipient person that it's felt or projected towards. This is what I meant, above, as to helping with "caretaking and boundary issues" – self-less, unbounded goodwill simply radiates, doesn't have to caretake in any specific way, and boundaries disappear. ("Radiates" not as something mystical or electromagnetic, but that others sense it, it feels safe -- in this sense it's "contagious," if you will.)

When the mind/heart is immersed in such a state, it will naturally respond to whatever it encounters – other people, animals,… 'all sentient beings' – and act in skillful ways embodying goodwill, compassion, etc. And, it's a peaceful, pleasurable state to be in.

In fact metta (and the other brahmaviharas) are listed among the traditional objects of one-pointed focus in the practice of deep concentration / Jhana, and in this context it is precisely this "immeasurable","unbounded" presence (nimitta) that the mind/heart absorbs into, free of any sense of "I" as giver or "other" as recipient. This also works (as above, meaning in my experience).

Richard Zen (10/1/14 12:02 AM as a reply to Max. )
"…Try to be The Man with No Name…"


I can't say whether Richard intended this sense, but "Man with No Name" can be seen as similar to the impersonal quality implied by that sense of immeasurable or unbounded depicted above. My impression of that film-persona used by Clint Eastwood is that that role perceived and acted in ways that could be seen as "impersonal;" fearless, clear-headed, resilient, because he clung to no particular agenda, and could discern and leverage on such weakness (tanha) in others.

Not Tao (10/1/14 1:17 AM as a reply to Max.)
"Cultivating unconditional happiness (as in, happiness for no reason) is a great way to cultivate both morality and responsibility. If you are happy for no reason, then no one can do anything to challenge this happiness."


Again, not to speak for 'Not Tao', but happiness "for no reason", "unconditional" can be compared to the internally self-sufficient, not externally dependent bliss of the Jhanas. Whether the Clint Eastwood persona upheld the precept of "non-harming" might be questonable, but part of the allure of that persona (why one can't help but like him a bit) relates to some sense of "morality and responsibility" that he imbodied on another level.

(Thanx, Richard, for the impressive graphic. As I recall, that’s a the scene where he makes that other guy dig-up the money/treasure buried in the graveyard.)
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Dada Kind, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 9:42 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 9:42 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Excessive guilt/shame is usually tied up with early sexual experiences and attitudes.

I recommend Pleasure by Lowen. I took a few screenshots of the chapter on Guilt, Shame, and Depression.
Max, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 9:47 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 9:47 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Droll Dedekind:
Excessive guilt/shame is usually tied up with early sexual experiences and attitudes.

I recommend Pleasure by Lowen. I took a few screenshots of the chapter on Guilt, Shame, and Depression.

I want to validate your guess here. My childhood involved 16 years straight of relatively uninterrupted "Jesus Camp" and any masturbation I did or kissing of close girlfriends induced crying and extreme anxiety/guilt/shame up until about age 21.  I cried for about an hour and took a walk around the block the first time after I had sex.  I wouldn't say I'm "over it all" now.  I'm engaging in full disclosure right now in hopes that you and others here will refer me to anything that might be helpful.  If I hold back I might not gain the full benefit of being on this forum.
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bernd the broter, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 9:57 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 9:57 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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My experience summed up (more details on my practice log if you're interested):
Metta heavily reduces anger at yourself, with lots of beneficial and unexpected side effects.
It's not easy, but definitely worth it.

Start with Metta for yourself.
You will probably experience lots of anger at yourself, but that doesn't mean that Metta makes the anger worse.
It's just a step on the way.
Max, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 10:04 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 10:04 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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bernd the broter:
My experience summed up (more details on my practice log if you're interested):
Metta heavily reduces anger at yourself, with lots of beneficial and unexpected side effects.
It's not easy, but definitely worth it.

Start with Metta for yourself.
You will probably experience lots of anger at yourself, but that doesn't mean that Metta makes the anger worse.
It's just a step on the way.
I want to be absolutely clear on what you're saying. "Metta for myself" means repeating "May I be happy and peaceful" (with some conviction) repeatedly for some alloted length of time?

Thanks for the suggestion and log.
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bernd the broter, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 10:43 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 10:43 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Yes, that's basically it. I repeat just "May I be happy", which feels simpler for me.
There are different ways of doing it though. I like Bhante Sujato's method, but there are others.
I recommend listening to Bhante Sujatos audio instructions (which I linked to in my practice log or in the thread about his Metta retreat) to avoid misconceptions. I believe that much of what he's saying is relevant for Metta practice even if you're not practicing exactly according to his instructions.

If you don't like the phrases, here are alternative ones:
http://www.leighb.com/mettaphrases.htm

Do you have some consistent meditation practice by now?
Many of the 'traps' in Metta meditation are the same as in other kinds.
So if you have some experience already, this should make Metta meditation much easier.
Max, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 10:59 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 10:59 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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bernd the broter:
Yes, that's basically it. I repeat just "May I be happy", which feels simpler for me.
There are different ways of doing it though. I like Bhante Sujato's method, but there are others.
I recommend listening to Bhante Sujatos audio instructions (which I linked to in my practice log or in the thread about his Metta retreat) to avoid misconceptions. I believe that much of what he's saying is relevant for Metta practice even if you're not practicing exactly according to his instructions.

If you don't like the phrases, here are alternative ones:
http://www.leighb.com/mettaphrases.htm

Do you have some consistent meditation practice by now?
Many of the 'traps' in Metta meditation are the same as in other kinds.
So if you have some experience already, this should make Metta meditation much easier.

I've got nothing consistent at this point.  By doing metta meditation consistently I'll be popping a cherry.  Here's the link I dug up from the old threads:  http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/itemlist/category/62-june-2011.html

I've got migraines and eye tensions a lot, that's my main "blocker" or excuse as you could say.
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 11:08 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 11:08 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Chris J Macie:

Richard Zen (10/1/14 12:02 AM as a reply to Max. )
"…Try to be The Man with No Name…"


I can't say whether Richard intended this sense, but "Man with No Name" can be seen as similar to the impersonal quality implied by that sense of immeasurable or unbounded depicted above. My impression of that film-persona used by Clint Eastwood is that that role perceived and acted in ways that could be seen as "impersonal;" fearless, clear-headed, resilient, because he clung to no particular agenda, and could discern and leverage on such weakness (tanha) in others.

Not Tao (10/1/14 1:17 AM as a reply to Max.)
"Cultivating unconditional happiness (as in, happiness for no reason) is a great way to cultivate both morality and responsibility. If you are happy for no reason, then no one can do anything to challenge this happiness."


Again, not to speak for 'Not Tao', but happiness "for no reason", "unconditional" can be compared to the internally self-sufficient, not externally dependent bliss of the Jhanas. Whether the Clint Eastwood persona upheld the precept of "non-harming" might be questonable, but part of the allure of that persona (why one can't help but like him a bit) relates to some sense of "morality and responsibility" that he imbodied on another level.

(Thanx, Richard, for the impressive graphic. As I recall, that’s a the scene where he makes that other guy dig-up the money/treasure buried in the graveyard.)
It was a good image of skillfulness.  He doesn't have a carefree life.  He almost dies in the desert because of Tuco but he uses opportunity to stay alive. The funniest is when Tuco is beaten by the Bad guy to get information on the treasure and when Blondie is brought in he doesn't bother with him "you wouldn't talk anyways." LOL! The point is that we have to deal with hateful people and metta is not appropriate in ALL situations.

I think Odysseus is another good example because he's used in the Enneagram and his trials represent all 9 types.
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Not Tao, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 12:45 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 12:45 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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If you start with compassion, you can move to metta pretty easily.  For example, imagine someone suffering, then imagine them feeling better.  Maybe it's a bit manipulative, haha, but it worked for me when I was trying to do metta.

Also, don't forget that the point of the practice it to eventually find equanimity with things.  There are 4 brama vharas - compassion, loving-kindness (metta), sympathetic joy, and equanimity.  They always seem to be listed in that order in the suttas, which always gave me the impression that you move through them with the goal of finding equanimity.  It's pretty easy to summon compassion if you see someone suffering, and from there it becomes pretty easy to feel kind towards them, then from there it becomes easy to be happy for them when they feel better, and then from there it's easy to become completely benevolent towards them.  As you pile up different people in your thoughts, you kind of fade into a universal benevolence as you realize that, because you would feel compassion for anyone who's suffering, and because everyone who might ever wrong you only does it out of suffering, you simply have no reason to feel malice towards anyone.

I think this kind of imaginative practice is very powerful.  If you have feelings of guilt or shame that you can identify, treat it like a phobia and do some cognitive behavioral therapy on it.  I use negative visualization for those kinds of things.  For example, I have a fear of driving, so when I feel like this fear is bothering me, I will sit down and imagine myself getting into car accidents.  The goal is to expose yourself to the thing you're afraid of in your mind, and face it calmly.  The first few times I run through it, my heart might jump a little, but each time I dismiss the reaction and start again with the intention to remain calm.

For feelings of guilt or shame about sex, you might imagine someone you respect, like a priest or a role model, walking in on you masturbating.  Haha, it sounds horrible, but you can actually change these thought patterns very quickly.  Just remember - you want to dismiss the habitual reaction of shame and just remain calm.  What you're afraid of is your imagination, so you can face your imagination, let it do its worst, and realize there's nothing really there that can hurt you.
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bernd the broter, modified 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 12:53 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/1/14 12:53 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Those audios are a good place to start.
If it's possible, do a Metta retreat. That makes it so much easier to get the practice going.

Either way, consistent practice makes all the difference in my experience. When I'm consistent with practice, I get good effects. As soon as I start slacking and making excuses (which still happens after 9 months, but I keep getting back on track faster and faster), it's no good.

I would also second Richard's advice about reading (and applying) the focusing book by Eugene Gendlin. It's quite well-known; I found it in my local library, maybe you can, too.
I mention that because often inner conflicts will arise as tensions or even physical pain.
I sometimes switched to Focusing during a Metta session, when tensions became very strong, and I noticed that something wanted my attention.
So in my experience, these two approaches complement each other.
Max, modified 9 Years ago at 10/4/14 2:25 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/4/14 2:25 PM

RE: Fear of happiness

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UPDATE FOR EVERYONE:

Got the Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy book from the library, looks useful.  Wil buy a copy soon that I can mark/take notes with.
Finally gotta a little focus when I started to meditate.  
Haven't done the metta yet.
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/6/14 4:48 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/6/14 4:48 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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re Max (10/1/14 10:04 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.)

"want to be absolutely clear on what you're saying. "Metta for myself" means repeating "May I be happy and peaceful" (with some conviction) repeatedly for some alloted length of time?"

Lots of other good advice here, and references to the many excellent audios of metta meditations. (My favorite is one by Sharon Salzberg on a CD that once came with a Tricycle subscription.)

I would just add:

1) a common sequence of phrases, used by many authors, runs:
"may I be free from danger"
"may I be free from mental suffering,"
"may I be free from physical pain,"
"may I live with ease of heart, whatever comes my way in life" (this one from Sharon Salzberg)

Most authors encourage using what ever personal variations of words (for these basic ideas) that are most meaningful for one.

2) Note the phrasing – "may I be FREE FROM …"

It may be vague as to what 'happy' might mean; when one is in the dumps, envisioning a positive state may be, by definition,  difficult, unavailable. Therefore, using the negative phrasing – "may I be free from," i.e."NOT beset by" -- can be more vivid. One may be quite aware of lack of safety, mental anguish, out-and-out pain, or that nothing seems going right. A practical first step would be wishing, envisioning being relieved of those situations. When they ebb-away (with ernest, repeated practice), then the positive, the 'happiness' and 'peace' may emerge in terms that one might not have imagined (or vividly verbalized) when stuck back in the mire.
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CJMacie, modified 9 Years ago at 10/6/14 4:51 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/6/14 4:51 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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re Richard Zen (10/1/14 11:08 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"I think Odysseus is another good example because he's used in the Enneagram and his trials represent all 9 types."

Interesting tip. Can you point to what author / book goes into that parallel with Odysseus' trials?
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 10/6/14 7:55 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 10/6/14 7:55 AM

RE: Fear of happiness

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Chris J Macie:
re Richard Zen (10/1/14 11:08 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie.)

"I think Odysseus is another good example because he's used in the Enneagram and his trials represent all 9 types."

Interesting tip. Can you point to what author / book goes into that parallel with Odysseus' trials?


http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Enneagram-Paths-Greater-Self-Knowledge-ebook/dp/B00FL1HSTY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1412600090&sr=8-2&keywords=Enneagram+22