How long do the thogal visions usually wane for before the fourth vision arises because these visions have been waning for a few months now what's going on still waitign for dissolution

Hi Grant, 
 
I think this question can be analogized to sitting on the back of a horse you don't know that no one's ridden; you're the first one. The best thing is not to assume anything, but to be sensate to the actual situation until you forget this is even a horse. So in daily life, what assumptions/conceptions/expectations are being reasserted? The dissolution does not happen to one who is asserting an idea of dissolution or an expectation of dissolution. A tip: if you exercise, particularly if you do something that you know generates beaucoup endorphins, sit during the rest-&-endorphin-feeling phase after the exercise/yoga. Sit in sukkha an get used to sitting in that vibratory comfort. Sit as much as you need to till the mind stops popping up and asserting/expecting/conceiving. The mind will switch from "collecting" the body experience conceptually or mentally and the mind can then take up the experience proprioceptively, without thought arising. It helps if one gets sort of bored by all this because then the mind is giving up a lot of conception and replacing conception with "Hey, buddy, let's do something fun all ready. Sitting sucks." Then one may pass through lethargy; one sits through that; then one may have the mental calm so that the experience of dissolution is known. :]

Keep in mind that the 4th vision is in fact full enlightenment, the final end of duality, and total oneness with all things.  Such things happen at their own speed.

If you are in fact at the level of the visions of thodgal, continue to practice as usual.  It's ok to have anticipation, but just don't let it get in the way.  Obviously we all want to get enlightened, so no point in trying to deny our desire, after all it is the thing which drives us to make progress on the path.

thanks guys I know what you mean its hard to drive that into my skull that IM anticipating it alittle too much but I cant help it IM excited. Im looking forward to the phenoma dropping away, IM curious as to if it will cure my scizophrenia actually because if you think of it they are phenoma too. and I am looking forward to the restlessness being gone. just peace you know.

curious how does a buddha think if all concepts are gone or is it all just spontaneous prensence?

Hi Grant, 

Aboutyour curiosity, will this cure your schizophrenia: 
Personally, it is very natural that we come to meditation hoping to "cure" ourselves of our painful or dissatisfying mental habits or personality or behavior.

However, I think what happens first through one's practice first one learns to see and to receive non-judgementally thoughts and feelings without acting on them in attraction (as in "Yes, I will act on that impulse!") or aversively ("I will push aside those thoughts and feelings").

Little by little just sitting and watching the mind the way a fisherman watches for fish (a quote from the Catholic saint, Romuald, actually), it becomes safe and increasingly reliable to just witness the movies and impuses arising in one's own mind and yet not acting on them.

So just as friendliness (metta) and equanimity (upekkha) are celebrated mental cultivations in buddhist meditation, one starts with oneself with receptive (here is the metta), non-judgemental (here is the upekkha) awareness of what is arising (here is the non-reactivity of meditation).

In this way a treatment moves towards a "cure"-- and the cured condition may be very similar to the uncured condition, but now one knows how to use the condition in a skilful way versus unskillful. So, like a person with a schizophrenia, an autistic person may still be deemed diagnostically autistic throughout meditational training (i.e., throughout life), but the seeing of one's habits (self) and conditions (environment)-- seeing these things as they are, may let the person have a reliable mind about their personal conditions and their environmental conditions. So they can die knowing they did what they could in this life to be at peace.

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I think the only way we know to suggest this is because we, too, know that anticipating energy and desire to get on with "it" :] I will say that first I had to go through long boring stretches, long conceited stretches, long dissatified stretches-- these all culminated in "giving up" happening to me. I was deflated, but had the habits of basic meditation and basic daily mindfulness (not perfect nor mastered, as is still the case ). So in that deflated expectationless places, the mind could then see itself without filters of expectation and narrative nor provocation.

So it took time and emotional swings for this "giving up" letting go to happen, and this is still the case for me as the practice continues though the attachements and mental phenomena are maybe more subtle.

I don't know if that makes sense or if I've erred on the too-cerebral side. But best wishes with your investigation and practice.  

What are you guys talking about? Sounds awesome. I want more hallucinations and stuff. 
/overly excited newbie

well your right i think at least partially because the voices have gotten better with practise still it would be nice if they completely went away.

more hallucinations? Ive had enough hallucination i cant wait till it completely goes away

pal are you in thogal? which vision?

No, I barely know what it is, I just started meditating this summer. 
Good luck with getting rid of those voices, really sounds terrible. Maybe deep jhanas would shut them up?

they do have an effect on them but I never really understood about delibritely going into any jhana or samadhi state if it comes it come if it doesnt they dont the jhanas arent used as much if at all in dzogchen.

rigpa right now is pretty strong I can feel my brain locked on awareness and the whole brain is just aware that I can feel the strain on my brain aor rather the energy of the rigpa where it is strong and even makes my eyes focus differently when i focus on the energy

although i cant move rocks and make imprints in the rocks with my feet like the "heart drops of dharmakaya" says happens at this time maybe not all are able to do that i mean not every rainbow body has someone making impresstions in the rocks. or maybe Im not at that point in
thogal i dunno I sure hope things improve with time and meditation though I sure would like to take the rainbow body and just say see ya later to everyone i know and just travel the world would be cool.

It takes many years. The problem is that there are events which may appear like dissolution that are in fact instances of early stages. Which is why one pretty much has to have the guidence of a qualified teacher or one is bound for error. Especially if you have hallucinations coming in from a hallucinatory disease process, like schizophrenia, which could be easily mistaken for thogal visions when they are not.

Take care.