http://youtu.be/USJPI7MP3Tw
...according to Bhante Vimalaramsi it seems. What do you think about this?

Well, In my opinion jhana arises when the body and mental formations become tranquil, through the skill of letting go and abandoning the hindrances.  One may start by having the mind be attentive to an object, say the breath or a kasina, but this is practice in letting go, whenever a hindrance arises, abandon or let go of the hindrance and bring the mind back to the object of your meditation.  Then when the mind has stilled, jhana will arise, and one then switches to the appropriate jhana state as the object of meditation.

If one is soley concentrating on an object, and continually doing so, and supresses the hindrances, this is another meditative state than jhana, though very similar.  One can become tranced and extremely focused, but builds excess tension in the skull area, etc.  Plus, one is not learning the abandoning skill, which is useful in daily living, for instance if one wants to drop anger or greed as it arises, one has the same skill already that they learned by practicing jhana via abandoning the hindrances.  In comparison, with  the focusing concentration skill, one learns to ignore or suppress, so if anger or greed arises in daily living , one only has the skill of substituting or ignoring, which has only a pruning type effect upon craving, and not the uprooting effect one needs to progress in abandoning craving, which is learned by practicing Samma Samadhi intertwined with the rest of the Eightfold Path.

At least that is my experience...  Maybe I am practicing a Jhana, Insight , Effort admixture during meditation, which, by the way,  is what Bhante Vimilaramsi teaches with his TWIM method.

This is kinda hard to explain, especially since I practice solo, (contemplation,  books , mp3 dhamma talks, and what is available online, etc. ) 

oops, I rambled again...

Psi Phi

P.S.

I think the most important thing to do here with this topic, is to nail down, what exactly is Right Concentration?  As compare to Incorrect Concentration.  None of us have time to waste on needless, unprofitable endeavors.

So what is Correct and Incorrect as far as Concentration goes??

 Or, as Ayya Khema once stated, "A moment of Concentration is a moment of Purification."

Do you, like Vimalaramsi, agree that "jhana is the path" and that the jhanas are levels of understanding and letting go? After his explanation I am even more convinced that dry vipassana probably does not lead to the same enlightenment as the Buddha.

No, jhana is not the path, but jhana is definitely part of the path, a daily meditation practice that eventually enables one to still the mind , bring about joy and equanimity is a good counter-balance to dukkha, helps keep one stable, and if unwholesome mind states arise and one gets out of balance samadhi is a good stabilizing tool.  But it is not the end, or a whole path.  I try to use  samadhi,  insight practice (body scan and choiceless awareness),  the four supreme efforts.  Also , right now I am using Bhante Gunaratana's new book "Meditation on Perception", it's awesome, basically has ten contemplations/meditations and follows the Girimananda Sutta.

Do I agree that jhanas are levels of understanding and letting go?  Hmmm.... That's interesting, might have to think on that one, initially , I am inclined to say yes.  But that goes back to a definition of jhana.  And Equanimity gets mixed around in here alot.  

Equanimity, there's Equanimty as in the Fourth Jhana, where there is just Equanimity.

Then there's Equanimity in daily acivities , such as Bare attention/mindfulness, or seen as the highest of the Brahma Viharas (which would be practicing the Four Supreme Efforts) 

And as a factor of Enlightenment.

So, isn't it strange that Equanimity is part of Right Effort, Right Concentration, and Right Mindfulness.  Maybe the training is just to be equanimous towards everything and this pretty much covers most of the bases??  Equanimity towards all formations, balanced scales, but, I have heard even this too must be abandoned....

Does dry Vippassana lead to the same enlightenment as the Buddha?  My opinion?  Yes, it can, but one has to practice true Equanimity, (Equanimity that has as it's parts also Metta, Karuna , and Mudita)  If not, one will be practicing as a pure neutral objective observer that is really a powerful form of indifference, this can be hard to distinguish from equanimity. Dry Vipassana Methods should expose to the mind the true nature of reality, that it is impersonal, impermanent, and has dukkha. Knowing this should arouse compassion, derived from the wisdom knowing all of us are the same and in the same boat.  So, it might start out dry, but shouldn't be in the end.

But, please take what I say with a grain of salt, as I am still on the path, and have not yet finished up, still having too much fun with the delusion, though , soberingly enough I know disaster could come in any moment.

Maybe we should create a holiday, Sukkha Dukkha Day! (Just to confuse everyone)

Psi

I like the video thanks for sharing.
I think enlightment is enlightment. It doesn't matter wich practice brings you there. 
With "dry vipassana" also the same understanding gets deeper. Deeper understanding will be the cause
that the mind can let go easier and after will shift naturally into Jhana anyway. 
Different people different practice but I guess the result is the same. 

Four Modes of Progress to Liberation
1. Dukkha patipadā dandhābhiññā – painful
progress with sluggish direct knowledge.
2. Dukkha patipadā khippābhiññā – painful
progress with swift direct knowledge.
3. Sukha patipadā dandhābhiññā – pleasant
progress with sluggish direct knowledge.
4. Sukha patipadā khippābhiññā – pleasant
progress with swift direct knowledge.
 
“There is no concentration for one who lacks wisdom.
Nor is there wisdom for one who lacks concentration.
In whom there are found both concentration and wisdom,
Are indeed in the presence of nibbāna.” 

The thing is, I can't find anywhere in the suttas where the Buddha talks about non-jhanic or open awereness meditation as a means to get awakened. And, like Vimalaramsi says, one can't get to nibbana without seeing paticcasamuppada and you can see the three characteristics w/o seeing paticcasamuppada but not the other way around.

Why do you think so?

True enough, in that the jhanas are mentioned numerous times throughout the suttas, and so are the other seven folds of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Also, in the sutta below, one will find other contemplations, Body, Mind, Feelings, Dhammas, so in this sense these are "meditations", but not just jhana, nor just mindfulness, but through the stilled mind (jhana) and the attentive mind (Mindfulness) one contemplates. Yoniso Manasikara, Wise attention  http://www.bdcu.org.au/Yoniso-Manasikara-Sampada.pdf

http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/mahasati/

Maha-satipatthana Sutta: The Great Frames of Reference

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html


But, yes, I agree with Bhante Vimilaramsi, whole-heartedly.  And Bhante Vimilaramsi teaches to pay attention to what the mind is doing in each and every mind moment throughout the entire day during all activiteis, and to apply the TWIM practice and 6r method relentlessly, he doesn't teach a jhana only teaching.

But if one doesn't have open awareness are you saying one should have closed awareness?  Of course not, then one would be ignoring phenomenon, and then how could one learn or see paticcasamuppada?

Jhana is just a piece of the puzzle, and even that peice, it seems, should be Correct Jhana or Samma Samadhi.  Define that and you win a Golden Buddha Trophy....



Psi

P.S.  It is a pleasure to meet you Pal!  

Yes the satipatthana sutta teaches us to have an open attention during everyday activities, but the only "formal sitting practice" I can find recommended in the suttas is jhana practice. I don't think the Buddha taught people to sit with open awereness or noting outside jhana for hours a day like the vipassana movement seems to teach. And the only scanning practice instructions I can find is thinking about all body parts in asubha bhavana. And yes there are lots of contemplation instructions in those suttas, none of which seems to resemble modern vipassana. Speaking from what I've read about vipassana, not experience. My practice, I think, is jhana oriented.
Nice to meet you too!

"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."
From Magga-vibhanga sutta

do I get a trophy now? Or maybe it should be given to the Buddha, but he is dead unfortunately.

True enough, only the "formal sittings" seem to be geared towards jhana practice, according to the suttas.  
But during "normal sitting" one is expected to be mindful, just as when walking , lying down.

And from link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html

"Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things, in the body. Or indeed his mindfulness is established with the thought: 'The body exists,' to the extent necessary just for knowledge and remembrance, and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world." Thus, also, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body."

So, Vipassana (defined as a Method is really a Contemplation and not a meditation?) Vipassana defined really means "seeing inward" "seeing deeply" "seeing clearly"  Though it's not seeing as in eyesight , but in the sense of being aware.

But, don't underestimate the power of Contemplation or Vipassana as a method, it is directed and geared for insight/wisdom only. (Though some may become tranqil from wisdom. "A little bit of wisdom brings a little bit of tranquility, and a little bit of tranquility brings a little bit of wisdom."  

Like it or not, the Buddha suggests training in both jhana and contemplation (and more),  it is up to each individual to do as they choose, he is just pointing out the way.  And some things work better for different people , I suppose.

So, yeah...

Psi

Almost forgot your prize! Hope you have room for it....

re: Pål (11/3/14 12:59 PM as a reply to Psi.)
"…Yes the satipatthana sutta teaches us to have an open attention during everyday activities,…"

Most teachers would probably agree that G.Buddha taught mindfulness (sati, as in sati-patthana) to be used EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME, DOING WHATEVER, at whatever level of attainment. Closer to "open attention" might be the term 'clear comprehension' (sampajanna), which appears very often together with sati; and some (e.g. Sujato, and Analayo) think sampajanna refers more specifically to normal daily activities.

"… but the only "formal sitting practice" I can find recommended in the suttas is jhana practice…."

That standard introductory formula found in many Sutta-s – find a secluded place; sit-up straight, put away cares for the world, become glad, rapturous, tranquil… -- is repeated often to introduce concentration practice (jhana), and also, for instance, to introduce anapanasati practice. And maybe (though I can't recall specifically) to introduce other practices. Some interpret anapanasati (Sutta) as samadhi practice; some see it as vipassana or a mixture; some see satipatthana (Sutta-s) as more specifically vipassana.

If you've got a lot of time to read, try Ajahn Sujato's A History of Mindfulness (free on the internet), where he maps out 2200 years of evolution of the texts of the Theravadan tradition (in comparison and contrast with the Chinese and some Tibetan texts) as gradually leaning more and more to vipassana (and less to samadhi); in particular, he views the Satipatthana Sutta as a (highly synthetic) central symbol of that evolution.

Considering 'sitting' from another angle, G. Buddha is cited as describing the details of his awakening process (all in one sitting, though maybe mythically / symbolically) to include the '3 knowledges,' which are clearly 'insight' (i.e. vipassana) practices.

"… And yes there are lots of contemplation instructions in those suttas, none of which seems to resemble modern vipassana…"

In the last 60 years or so, and against a background of southeast Asian political-religious history of a couple of centuries, this trend towards, this ascendency of vipassana over samadhi has become a BIG issue, which I suspect is part of Sujato's motivation for his theory of the long-term evolution. In a s/w humorous passage, he points out how the Burmese have recently substituted the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta (from the Digha Nikiya) into the Majjhima Nikaya to replace the Satipatthana Sutta that used to be there (the one Sujato believes to have been synthesized at about 20 BCE, i.e. 'late'):

[page 298] " The dhammas section in the Majjhima version [i.e. the 'Satipatthana Sutta']closes with a brief enunciation of the four noble truths. This is then expanded greatly in the Mahā Satipatthāna Sutta of the Dīgha Nikāya. Some of the recent Burmese recensions have re-incorporated this entire section from the Dīgha Nikāya back into the Majjhima Nikāya, and even acknowledge this provenance by re-titling it the 'Mahā Satipatthāna Sutta'. Perhaps a better title would be the 'Piltdown Sutta'. This canonical innovation is extraordinary. While it is common for a word or phrase to slip between the cracks, I don't know any other place where a large body of text has been moved, obviously in fairly recent times. No doubt this editorial innovation was designed to further exaggerate the already excessive status of the Satipatthāna Sutta. But the result is rather the reverse — such clumsy mishandling leaves all too-obvious fingerprints at the scene of the crime. The altered version is found in the so-called 'Sixth Council' edition published by the vipassanā Research Institute, but was inserted earlier, for the notes to the PTS Pali (edited in 1888) state that the Burmese manuscript includes under the four noble truths 'a passage of some length, borrowed from the Mahā Satipatthāna Sutta of the Dīgha Nikāya'. This possibly refers to the Fifth Council edition."

re: Psi(11/3/14 10:47 PM as a reply to Pål.)
"True enough, only the "formal sittings" seem to be geared towards jhana practice, according to the suttas.  But during "normal sitting" one is expected to be mindful, just as when walking , lying down."

(See above re sitting and mindfulness)

Another point, rarely mentioned (in DhO, that I've yet seen – maybe I've not looked enough) is the issue of 'momentary concentration' (khanika samadhi), that can happen when doing anything (sitting, walking, lying-down,…); it's like the concentration of a surgeon, a lock-pick, or a musician. (And distinct from both 'access' and 'absorption' concentrations.) This type of concentration often associated with vipassana. Notably in Mahasi's method:

(TREATISE ON THE METHOD OF VIPASSANAINSIGHT MEDITATION vol 1, part 1, pp.104-5)
"Purification of the mind occurs continuously to a person engaged in the practice of Vipassanā meditation consecutively in combination only with contemplating and noting when his faith (saddhā), effort (Vīriya), mindfulness (Sati), concentration (Samādhi) and insight wisdom (Paññā) become keen and strengthened in a state of equilibrium. Imagination and thought which are Nīvaranas will not even occur during the intervening period in the course of contemplation and noting. During that period every time contemplating and noting is carried on, samādhi
which sharply concentrates on the arising of rūpa-nāma becomes highly developed, ardent and obvious. This Samādhi is called Khanika-samādhi (momentary concentration). It is Samādhi, the fixed concentration occurring only for a brief moment of the arising consciousness that contemplates and notes."
(And pp.137-8)
"Hence, this Khaṇika-samādhi (momentary concentration) which penetrates and is fixed on an object free from distraction at every moment of noting is called "Niyyāna", the way to emancipation followed by the Ariyās. This samādhi should be relied upon and developed."

Mahasi even goes so far as to identify this momentary concentration as the samadhi that is one of the 'Factors of Enlightenmend' (Sambojjanga)
TREATISE ON THE METHOD OF VIPASSANAINSIGHT MEDITATION vol 1, part 2, pp.187)
"This Khanikasamādhi (momentary concentration) which becomes involved in every act of noting and which occurs vigorously is known as
'Samādhisambojjanga'."

Note that Mahasi points out (in the first quatation) how this concentration counters the hindrances (just like in the heavy-duty jhana). And the association of it with the Sambojjhangas re-inforces that, as the part of the Samyutta Nikaya dealing with the 'Factors' (the Bojjhnangasamyutta) emphasizes the oppositional relationship between the 'Factors' and the 'hindrances'.

Mahasi was certainly familiar with, no doubt practiced the Visudhimagga–style 'hard' jhana-s (virtually all Burmese masters are experts in Abhidhamma and Visudhimagga, theory and practice). But for the popularized vipassana methodology, this khanika-samadhi appears to have been the main (if not the only) way concentration was included.

(I'm a bit puzzled that Daniel's MCTB(1) doesn't appear to go into khanika-samadhi much, at least in the intro on concentration (p.30ff); I don't recall it coming up elsewhere either, but could be mistaken -- I read it all, but under time-pressure. Wonder if it will appear in MCTB2?)
 
" But, don't underestimate the power of Contemplation or Vipassana as a method, it is directed and geared for insight/wisdom only. …"

And if you do underestimate it, you're probably in the wrong forum here.

BTW: very nice prize / trophy – very tranquil. You can be proud if it, Pål.

About khanika samadhi as an enlightenment factor: 
So the enlightenment factor samadhi is something else than samma samadhi according to Mahasi? Seems far fetched to me, unless it is possible to gain sutta-style jhana through khanika samadhi. 
I am pretty convinced that  Anapasati as thaught in the suttas is a jhana practice. That does not at all exclude that it leads to  insight. I see Satipatthana as a category of meditation practices that together with good morality leads to awakening. Anapanasati is according to the suttas a very effective form of satipatthana. 
I read a summary of Sujatos work, it as awesome. Seems to differ a lot from Mahasi tradition. 

Honestly I might be underestimating dry vipassana the way it is practiced today. It might lead to some kind of insight, but since I can't find any support in the suttas for it, any meditation instructions sounding like those we get from modern vipassana teachers as far as I know, I doubt it leads to the same enlightenment as the Buddha if one doesn't practice the jhanas as well. But then I'm still a beginner to meditation.
Do you think I'm on the wrong forum? I don't know any other serious buddhist meditation forum that isn't tied to one narrow tradition.

You might find Sayadaw U Pandita's book, In This Very Life interesting, then. A transcription of Ch. 5, on the Vipassana Jhanas is here. Don't overlook the rest of the book, however.

Thanks! I haven't read all of it yet, but it's great. I would have wanted him to give sutta references to support his claims though.

Does anyone know where this comes fron for example?

"The Buddha said, “One should not allow the mind to wander without. Neither should one allow the mind to stop within. A bhikkhu who is able to be mindful in that way will eventually be able to extinguish all suffering.”"

Thanks, yes fortunately I do have room for it. 

re: Pål (11/4/14 1:09 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )
" About khanika samadhi as an enlightenment factor: 
So the enlightenment factor samadhi is something else than samma samadhi according to Mahasi?"

Not likely. He's using khanika-samadhi as a sort of light-weight, easier introduction to samadhi within his vipassana-oriented didactic framework.

" I read a summary of Sujatos work, it as awesome. Seems to differ a lot from Mahasi tradition."

Different shades of emphasis. Extracting details of viewpoints from different teachers, usually out of context, and framing them as conflicting views, hence problematic, is a favorite past-time of some who are keen on questioning monastic traditions. Examining in depth such discrepencies, and considering the context, can be a worth while study. Just high-lighting literal differences to make polemical points leads in another direction (dukkha).

"Do you think I'm on the wrong forum? I don't know any other serious buddhist meditation forum that isn't tied to one narrow tradition."

( in reply to (?)" But, don't underestimate the power of Contemplation or Vipassana as a method, it is directed and geared for insight/wisdom only. …""And if you do unde restimate it, you're probably in the wrong forum here. ")

This forum is about as even-handed and tolerant as any I've come across, and rarely boring.

The sutta correlation is left as an exercise for the reader :-P

Couldn't find one, but it seems consistent with his middle way counsel in general. E.g., "By not standing still, friend, and by not struggling I crossed the flood." And also: "Here, friend, is a vessel filled to the brim with oil. That you must carry through the large crowd to the beauty queen. A man with drawn sword will follow behind your back, and if you spill even a little of the oil, he will cut off your head!"

(Unrelated to this: in the process of looking for a sutta reference, I stumbled across a book that some might find interesting. I don't recall it being linked here before: http://abhidharma.ru/A/Tantra/Content/Bon/0001.pdf)

Bear in mind that In This Very Life is transcribed from a series of talks he gave. Also, he was discoursing in Burmese, so the talks were translated into English.

That said, I found this translation of Dhammapada 37 to be germane:


A more directly applicable translation:
(from http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/bmDamaStory.pdf)

Now all that said, less googling, more practicing (note to self).

The dhammapada is great. I've never seen any paragraph in the dhammapada or a sutta arguing against stopping the mind now and then though. 

I'm not sure if it is consistent with his heavy emphasis on jhana. (Hope I'm using the word emphasis correctly, I'm not a native english speaker).

Jhana is in-sight or it is enlightenment itself,the after effect, though there are degrees of Jhana, the ultimate Jhana is cessation but it is a side effect of Nirvana, without Nirvana there is no perfect Jhana. Perfect Jhana is avachaya or indescribabale. Even Buddha couldnt describe it.....Any comments ?