Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

David, modified 7 Years ago at 11/2/14 5:47 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/2/14 5:43 AM

Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 2 Join Date: 11/2/14 Recent Posts
Hello,

I had a strange/scary experience last night and I don't know what to think.

First a few words about my practice:
I have been practicing for a few months now. Stage-wise I think I am somewhere between pre-Mind and Body and Cause and Effect. My concentration is very weak, I never stayed in the first jhana for more than a few seconds (which makes me think I am probably not even at Mind and Body). But I also experience a lot of muscle twitching during and after meditation (hence Cause and Effect).
Around the same time i started practicing meditation, I started experiencing with drugs. I tripped a few times on LSD, and stopped after a traumatic trip on DMT 3 months ago.

Yesterday I meditated for more than 2.5hours which is huge for me, with one 1.5h session. Nothing particular happened though.Last night when I was in a dream state (not consciously awake at least). I remember trying to define what is/what am I/what is consciousness.
At the same time, a shift happened. It's hard to explain and remember. It felt like I lift the veil and understood everything. It also felt like perception/reality was stopping and reappearing, or going some place else and coming back. It happened 2 or 3 times in a few seconds. At that point I was awake. 
Now this was coupled with extreme fear, like I knew too much and was gone too far and I could not live anymore with that knowledge. I was even considering suicide. It felt like every question I had about everything was answered (even the idea of a question did not make sense) but I didn't like it at all
Shortly after I was back to normal except for the fear.

I mentioned psychedelics because it made me remember that I had already experienced that before. I didn't remember it but I now do. It's like my mind forgot for its own good. I remember thinking that taking drugs was the biggest mistake I had done. But I wouldn't remember it afterwards, and would do it again.

Can anyone relate to this? Any reading you would advise?
My first thouht was that it could be the A&P, but it doesn't match the description in any way except for the intensity.
I am also wondering how enlightened people relate to creation and existence? Does enlightenment answer that question in any way? For me it felt like enlightement was a more "ignorant" state, like if you learned to stop caring about the question. But I'm probably wrong...

Thanks and sorry if this is hard to read, I'm not a native speaker.
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katy steger, modified 7 Years ago at 11/2/14 10:40 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/2/14 10:39 AM

RE: Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hello David, 

Welcome to this forum. 

One of the central tenants with buddhist self-study is that a practitioner will start to see the arising and ceasing of phenomena, everything (thoughts, feelings, objects, sensations, feelings, consciousness...) coming into being, changing, going out of existance.
At the same time, a shift happened. It's hard to explain and remember. It felt like I lift the veil and understood everything. It also felt like perception/reality was stopping and reappearing, or going some place else and coming back. It happened 2 or 3 times in a few seconds. At that point I was awake. 

And it can be very jarring/alarming/terrifying even when this arising and passing away understanding happens to ourselves, our own consciousness, and we are aware of this coming into and out of existence. It is a very informative/knowledge-endowing experience that can cause any number of emotions and sometimes two "opposite" emotions, like elation followed by deep fear.

The fear is very normal: being human, being alive, means "I am" something that exist. "I am" is synonymous with "existing". No existing, no "I am..." So fear is a very normal partner to an opening in awareness which may also have bliss.

I hope you continue to avoid self-harm. To me, the urge to self-harm/suicide can be b) an impulse to take control of the cessation if one feels oppressed/terrified/angry/miserable by the lack of control one has over the arising and passing of all phenonmena (including one's loved ones), and it can also be b) a by-product of chemical changes caused by particular drugs, like the use of DMT.

So what do to?
I am listening to a talk on the seven factors of enlightenment so that is on my mind.

Perhaps take the keen awareness, energy (even though the energy may be fearful alertness) and investigation you naturally have right now (as evidenced by enrolling and posting on the DhO) in this event and start applying the other four factors to your attention of this event:
1) watch your attention on this event can show that the alarm around it will subside the same as a food craving or sexual craving also subsides over time-- that is letting the factor of tranquility enter your awareness of the event;

2) with tranquility, the mind will naturally feel it can look closer at the compelling event because tranquility is peaceful and safe-feeling so the brain can collect itself attentively to the event without the distacting mental movements caused by aversion and/or fear;

3) As the mind concentrates it learns about the event, and the learning will cause some even-mindedness to seeing things as they are.


I speculate that your brain, after your long meditation, did get very tranquil and relaxed and probably concentrated (as evidenced by your unexpectedly "long" sit) and that as a result of becoming concentrated it had an insight into the arising and passing of phenomena, including self, own-consciousness--- in just moments though, "you" naturally arose and were deeply alarmed by this disappearing and reappearing, this understanding and this exposure about the nature of your own mind and being.

I could be totally wrong. What do you think of the above characterization? 
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Richard Zen, modified 7 Years ago at 11/2/14 12:54 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/2/14 12:54 PM

RE: Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 1652 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
David:

Yesterday I meditated for more than 2.5hours which is huge for me, with one 1.5h session. Nothing particular happened though.Last night when I was in a dream state (not consciously awake at least). I remember trying to define what is/what am I/what is consciousness.
At the same time, a shift happened. It's hard to explain and remember. It felt like I lift the veil and understood everything. It also felt like perception/reality was stopping and reappearing, or going some place else and coming back. It happened 2 or 3 times in a few seconds. At that point I was awake. 
Now this was coupled with extreme fear, like I knew too much and was gone too far and I could not live anymore with that knowledge. I was even considering suicide. It felt like every question I had about everything was answered (even the idea of a question did not make sense) but I didn't like it at all
Shortly after I was back to normal except for the fear.

I mentioned psychedelics because it made me remember that I had already experienced that before. I didn't remember it but I now do. It's like my mind forgot for its own good. I remember thinking that taking drugs was the biggest mistake I had done. But I wouldn't remember it afterwards, and would do it again.

Can anyone relate to this? Any reading you would advise?
My first thouht was that it could be the A&P, but it doesn't match the description in any way except for the intensity.
I am also wondering how enlightened people relate to creation and existence? Does enlightenment answer that question in any way? For me it felt like enlightement was a more "ignorant" state, like if you learned to stop caring about the question. But I'm probably wrong...

Thanks and sorry if this is hard to read, I'm not a native speaker.
I think it's like the A & P for you but it sounds very beginning and weak, meaning you need to keep practicing.  

Your attempt at defining consciousness was probably where the progress occurred. For many people who stop meditation it's because they feel relief in resting in consciousness/knowing/awareness (same thing by the way) and treat it as a mirror of experience that doesn't react. They try and rest in this all day. Knowing just knows what's in the 5 senses + thinking in this moment is doing. Rumination is the big stress because it's just thinking about problems without thinking about solutions. Once you rest in the mirror of awareness there's less rumination and as the rumination habit starts weakening you become regularly peaceful. At that point you could stop and get on with your life or move further.  For you I think that should be your goal which is the Advaita Vedanta rest in consciousness level and then advance further as your thinking habits improve.

If you choose to advance straight to enlightenment you would want to see through this mirror as just being consciousness-objects as opposed to a consciousness mirror that has some location and objects on top of it. Any color, shape, idea of consciousness is also known by your brain so it can't be consciousness. Consciousness can't be found, but the 5 senses plus thinking are happening. This is similar to the Bahiya Sutta "only the seen, only the heard etc...only the thought." This has much more nuance because all experiences are found to be perceptions and the knowing doesn't look like an object at this point. If you say that consciousness is a container for experience then that thought of a container or imagination of a container is just another perception/recognition of an object. Space, and time eventually are objects to be known so there's no rest in a location or time of awareness. Consciousness exists but it's not a thing.

Good luck!
David, modified 7 Years ago at 11/3/14 2:23 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/3/14 2:20 PM

RE: Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 2 Join Date: 11/2/14 Recent Posts
Richard, Katy, Thank you very much for your answers.


I speculate that your brain, after your long meditation, did get very tranquil and relaxed and probably concentrated (as evidenced by your unexpectedly "long" sit) and that as a result of becoming concentrated it had an insight into the arising and passing of phenomena, including self, own-consciousness--- in just moments though, "you" naturally arose and were deeply alarmed by this disappearing and reappearing, this understanding and this exposure about the nature of your own mind and being.
I could be totally wrong. What do you think of the above characterization?  



To be honest, I don't know. I have trouble remembering the event. I mostly remember that it felt like way too much insight and I wished with all my heart that I didn't have that knowledge... Even though I don't remember it well, I've still been feeling awful these last two days.

For you I think that should be your goal which is the Advaita Vedanta rest in consciousness level and then advance further as your thinking habits improve.


I'll look into that. Do you have any recommended readings?
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Richard Zen, modified 7 Years ago at 11/3/14 2:34 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/3/14 2:32 PM

RE: Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 1652 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
David:
Richard, Katy, Thank you very much for your answers.


I speculate that your brain, after your long meditation, did get very tranquil and relaxed and probably concentrated (as evidenced by your unexpectedly "long" sit) and that as a result of becoming concentrated it had an insight into the arising and passing of phenomena, including self, own-consciousness--- in just moments though, "you" naturally arose and were deeply alarmed by this disappearing and reappearing, this understanding and this exposure about the nature of your own mind and being.
I could be totally wrong. What do you think of the above characterization?  



To be honest, I don't know. I have trouble remembering the event. I mostly remember that it felt like way too much insight and I wished with all my heart that I didn't have that knowledge... Even though I don't remember it well, I've still been feeling awful these last two days.

For you I think that should be your goal which is the Advaita Vedanta rest in consciousness level and then advance further as your thinking habits improve.


I'll look into that. Do you have any recommended readings?
http://www.amazon.com/Direct-Path-User-Guide/dp/1908664029/ref=asap_B002R23HRC_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415046472&sr=1-2
Greg Goode

http://www.amazon.com/Be-As-You-Are-Teachings-ebook/dp/B002RI9JS2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1415046613&sr=1-1&keywords=Ramana+Maharshi
Ramana Maharshi

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.ca/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html
Wei Yu's journal. I'm talking about the I AM stage in particular.

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/11119/
Cittamatra

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/210/talk/11125/
Cittamatra guided meditation
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katy steger, modified 7 Years ago at 11/3/14 3:30 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/3/14 3:30 PM

RE: Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi David, 

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I have heard offline people say, "[Such and such's] post helped me a lot," though the reader didn't post their feelings. So someone else may read your thread and be helped by knowing your experience.

Further to Richard's point, some other points-- just check in with yourself and see:
1. Are you moving your life somewhat in the direction you want to? I ask this because sometimes people become sick or traumatized when they want to change their life, but socially/mentally they don't know how to launch a change or how to develop a plan and view; sickness can result from sustained mental misery and then the person has to change their life/ has a biological reason for changing their life). It's totally okay if a person identifies with that or if not. It's just a question I put out there because I had something like this happen. 

2. If you want to feel well despite having something troubling on the mind, practice carefully and regularly good diet (such as: reduce sugar spikes) and adequate exercise.

3. Communicating with people who understand and share with you may help. In 1989 a study was done showing that persons with metatastisized cancer who attended weekly group therapy with fellow survivors lived twice as long as those patients who did not have weekly supportive group therapy. I think you will find a supportive, experienced group of people here especially if you're clear that you welcome that input from others.
Dennis Rufer, modified 7 Years ago at 11/19/14 1:05 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/19/14 1:00 PM

RE: Feeling of knowing too much/going too far during a dream

Posts: 9 Join Date: 8/6/13 Recent Posts
"Now this was coupled with extreme fear, like I knew too much and was gone too far and I could not live anymore with that knowledge. I was even considering suicide. It felt like every question I had about everything was answered (even the idea of a question did not make sense) but I didn't like it at all.
Shortly after I was back to normal except for the fear."

Thank you for posting this.  This seems an experience we may share.  Mine was under slightly different circumstances but the results seem the same.

For me, entering this was fearful, as you say, which caused me to slow my entry.  In my case, with extra time, I chose a direction, incident, and question.  It was powerful and, as you relate, I felt answers to anything were available, as though the entire contents of my mind were open and available for use.

Afterwards I was still quite shaken by the revelation matching the direction I'd chosen (which I've since found to be true in all it's particulars).  I've not tried to duplicate the experience but am giving it serious consideration.

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