completion of the path of thogal

grant, modified 6 Years ago.

completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/1/14 Recent Posts
So at first I thought that I was still in third vision of thogal when the visions had returned to a tingle but the heart drop of the dharmakaya says that's the fourth vision since august I have been in the fourth vision but I have to say I'm disappointed because I'm not enlightened. Maybe its true what they say there is no enlightenment that you are in fact already a Buddha and when you figure this out you are free. Another thing they mention is that non thought is liberation and I have in fact experienced a decrease in the amount of thinking I'm doing.
Still I'm disappointed I was looking forward to siddhi powers to make my life easier. So maybe this is it maybe there is no enlightenment maybe its all about realizing your quantum emptiness. And I do feel very empty like a big hole is in my chest or maybe that's just the seasonal affective disorder I dunno. 
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Not Tao, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 997 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Hi Grant,

Instead of assuming the visions indicate the path to enlightenment, why not assume that enlightenment is simply the end of stress and cultivate the things that you have found to end stress in practice?  Maybe this is a good time to examine yourself - what is your ultimate goal and how does it relate to past experience?  Use that to formulate a way to move closer to your goal and gain new insights into how it will come about.

Instead of saying, "I want to be enlightened," figure out what enlightenment means to you and say, "I want ____________ ."
Pål, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Or stop doing the tantra stuff and read some of what is probably the closest to what the Buddha said about how to get to the end of suffering.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html
T DC, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 389 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Grant,

If you believe you have reached the 4th vision but are not enlightened, there are several different ways to look at this.  One is what you have described, that seemingly enlightenment does not exist.  The other way to see it is that you have not actually reached the 4th vision, and thus stilll do not know for certain whether or not enlightenment is real.

As I described in my previous post to you, the 4 visions are experienced after a long, long path of meditative attainment.  I doubt very much that you have reached them, and truly found enlightenment to be lacking.  After all, genuine teachings on the path such as the 4 visions and their result have been laid out by realized yogis who experienced them personally.  They are not a fairy tale.

Do not despair that enlightenment is false, most people who seek the truth delude themselves into thinking they are enlightened at some point or another.  I definately did a number of times.  The important thing is to remain open to posibilities yet unknown.  In my experience there is very much a final end to suffering, and it can be reached.

All the best!
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Hi Grant,

I have read all your previous posts, I would say you are mistaking someother phenomenon for the Thogal visions. Particularly based on your  response to Jeff Grove in the following link.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5563336


I will repost Jeff Grove's response to you with my own emphasis added


Hi Grant,
Nimattas have nothing to do with Thodgal or thigles, they are an afterimage caused by the contemplation of an object, sustained thought and a mental image created through the process.Thodgal visions and not visions as such but more appearances of the structure of counsiousness as you move along the path closer to the source.The preliminarys a very important, working on attachments, gainng insight. There are phyiscal exercises to untie knots and open the subtle channels, building up internal energy thru breath practices.Thigles first appear about the size of a seed and there are initially two types showing the duality as counsiousness splits into light and matter. One with a light outside and dark inside and one with a light inside and dark outside. there must be a relaxed effort to stabilise these to the center of your vision. If you concentrate on the thigles they will light up and shrink in size moving farther away from the source. Estatic release of energy will make them grow in size and clarity thus the different use of energy in moving along the path.Once stabilised you will see a pattern of 4 or 5 in a cluster of complimentary colours corresponding to the elements. They will then grow to about pea size and you will begin to notice a structure of chains of thigles or tubes leading to what I can only describe as Indras Net, a matrix of intersecting thigles. This is an open eye practice started off by looking at the deep blue sky although you will start to see thigles under all light condtions. I asked what you see if you look at people , trees and your hands and you explained what you see with your eyes closed. By the third vision you should be sentitive to change, light refracting off the air/water causing a rainbow affect, auras around people and trees.Thodgal is not about out of body experiences and visions of you and places and people. You will start to see what could be described as buddhas sitting inside the thigles perhaps christ depending on your cultural background and meanings you assign. But it is more about moving along the path in counscious experince towards the source. There are eventually breacth practices to store your energy in the sky instead of the body as this is the dharmakaya. You should take the time to read Dans book and start a good foundation in insight practices gaining an understanding in self, impermance, suffering, cause and conditions, dependent origination, the skandhas etc. Emptiness cannot be understood intellectually although it helps. Your description doesnt sound like thodgal practices but I am not that far along the path and have plenty to learn and experience. Read the Yeshe Lama that should help attaining the 4th vision.cheers


Thodgal visions initiate from being able to perceive so nakely, without obfuscation from mental imputations, as to be able to notice very subtle refractions of light in the visual field.

Rather than hallucinations, the rainbows, shape etc the visions are better described as seeing without various post-processing filters coming from the brain that distory the seeing.

The Buddhas and yab-yum etc. are just vague shapes that can interpreted differently based on cultural conditioning not realistic hallucinations. To be able to experience this means that the thingles are very stabalized, due to an dearth of craving and aversion, stemming from authentic direct recognition of emptiness.

I am not qualified to teach this stuff. So take it with a grain of salt. 

All the best emoticon
grant, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/1/14 Recent Posts
when i was talking about nimattas I was talking about the pea sized tingles I was wondering if there was a correlation between what i read and what I was expiecing, i called them nimattas because thats what the book called the pea sized tingles a certain type of nimatta

perhaps there is still more for me to tread through i dont know... I dont have a teacher to ask questions
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(D Z) Dhru Val, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
grant:
when i was talking about nimattas I was talking about the pea sized tingles I was wondering if there was a correlation between what i read and what I was expiecing, i called them nimattas because thats what the book called the pea sized tingles a certain type of nimatta

perhaps there is still more for me to tread through i dont know... I dont have a teacher to ask question

Hi Grant,


It is important to distinguish concentration visions from dzogchen visions. Concentration visions are essentially based on strong imagination and phosphenes. Whereas dzogchen visions are based on clearly seeing refractions of light without mental filtering. 

Thingles and rainbow colors etc are based off of seeing naturally occuring phenomenon clearly initially atleast present as simple refractions in light. Later developing into mandalas etc.

It is hard to get this stuff via text, images are a better medium. The dzogchen visions will look something like this, they are quite unmistakable. With the following pictures maybe, you can ascertain for yourself whether these match with your experience....

Initially the thingles are not color ful and move very fast, however a basic concentric pattern can be seen. And changes in size based on relaxation...




Later own with further release, interference patterns can be observed, they are based of natural phenomenon of light, look very much like this...




Many of them appear...





More complex patterns...



grant, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 37 Join Date: 8/1/14 Recent Posts
listen i know what togal visions are but i just came back because i read on another forum that realization happens at the end of the fourth vision not at the beginning so maybe there is still hope Ive seen some drawing of togal visions pretty cool also kinda like pychadelic photos too sometimes  its been an amazing experience so far without it I think i would be doing alot worse because my mind has been tamed alot more than if i wasnt doing togal I still have a ways to go probably another year or so or more before i see the end of the fourth vision
wwyww, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: completion of the path of thogal

Posts: 10 Join Date: 3/31/15 Recent Posts
You really should consider getting a qualified teacher, because it is virtually impossible to correctly follow a thogal path from a book. The visions returning can happen cyclically, even if one is in full retreat, and is even more common if not in retreat practicing fulltime. Even in the context of a qualified teacher, people can get completely hung up on wrong views if they cease humbling themselves before someone more experienced [their teacher]. The classic example being the Olds couple, whom drew the pictures presented in this thread. They became cocksure as time went on and refused to listen to their teacher, they became convinced they had reached the fourth vision, when the apparent dissolution they were experiencing was a product of the second, if I recall correctly. That is when they left and began selling their books, with drawings and guarded materials they were given in trust, which is bound to mislead countless people. You can find a large discussion about this particular issue on the dharmawheel, their drawings were brought to a Bon master who first asked for the "rest" of the drawings, and then proclaimed that the Old's visions were not close to finished.


Moral of the story, is it is very likely you have not even made it to the fourth, especially considering the hallucinatory disease you have mentioned, which would entail visions other than thogal which would make self-discerning this process through very difficult. The Old's stayed in full retreat for 9 years straight, and didn't complete the thogal path. In fact they only got to the second category of visions, possibly the beginning of the third, which is arguable. This should be very telling.

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