How do I see the three characteristics?

Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 2:48 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 2:00 AM

How do I see the three characteristics?

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Hi, everybody!
The answer lies in the Three C's.
When I meditate, and note away. I can't really say that I see the three characteristics in a way that I can gauge that I really am.
I mean, that I can intellectually afterwards say that things were impermanent, and that I suffer because of trying to make them permanent, etc...
But as I am doing the noting, my mind is just noting. And I guess that the meaning is somehow that staying in this flow of the present moment will ultimately reveal (not intellectually) that everything IS impermanent, etc...

What I would like to ask, techniquewise is if there is another way of seeing them?
I reckon that stopping to intellectually evaluate is not where it's at (as in "oh, I have felt 23 emotions and 14 bodily sensations, and they all changed and disappeared").

So maybe I am answering my own question here, as in "nope, do what you do, the rest will follow" but if anyone feels like contributing some info, please do so.

Maybe I am just going back to obsessing over not thinking that I've reached any insights at all yet emoticon
But I am not interested in content analysis, nor using fancy words, I am interested in moving forward, so this is the place!

Thanks a lot for reading (regardless if you comment or not!)!
This Good Self, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 9:28 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 8:57 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

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I've not read any good detailed descriptions on how to note the 3 C's either. I asked this same question a while back and got no answer that was practical or usable, despite all the self-proclaimed experts in here. Keep in mind, not every tradition emphasizes the necessity of the 3 C's. Sometimes I wonder whether you just one day come to be aware of them the more you note, as a natural course of events. I agree with you about all the fancy words that get thrown around, however I have on occasion had some good help from a few in here. All I can say is I'm also interested in what answers come up this time.
Pavel _, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 10:36 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 10:36 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics? (Answer)

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In my experience a direct understanding of the three characteristics comes from practice - ie. all sensate phenomena are made up of fast flickering sensations that come and go (after a while of observing this, the truth of it seeps in). If all sensate reality is made up of fast flickering sensations that come and go, who is experiencing this? (no-self). If all sensate reality is made up of fast flickering sensations that come and go, how can I find lasting satisfaction in them? - or dissatisfaction? (suffering)

This stuff makes more sense the more I practice (ie. the first time I read MCTB I did not quite get it, the second time I got what it meant,...), reading more about it does not seem to make me understand it much more but re-reading it with more practice under my belt does.

Also, in MCTB there are specific meditation exercises for directly observing the three characteristics, its somewhere in the beginning of the book.
Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 11:22 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 11:22 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

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C C C:
Sometimes I wonder whether you just one day come to be aware of them the more you note, as a natural course of events. I agree with you about all the fancy words that get thrown around, however I have on occasion had some good help from a few in here.


Hi, C C C!
We'll surely get some answers. I have always gotten a lot of good help here.
My sentence about content analysis and fancy words wasn't directed to the people who post here.
It was actually a feeble attempt to define that I am not that interested in digging through my "stuff" as in psychological stuff, and that I wanted to distinguish myself more from people who sometimes prefer having a cool word for something where I just want nitty gritty advice. "Do X! Do Y!
How do I do Y? Well, when you Z, you may start Y-ing."

But I see that it may be interpreted as some kind of criticism towards people here, and I just wanted to say that my sentence "this is the place" was meant to signal that the DhO is more geared towards practical advice, and that I turn to the people here just therefore!

Make sense?
Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 11:25 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 11:25 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

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Thanks Pavel!
I think I get you.
But what I mean is that when noting (for instance) I am just there experiencing. To see the 3Cs I have to step back, and intellectually see "wow, emotion changed! It's impermanent" or "aha, there I tried holding on! Suffering, by golly!" and so on.

So, do I finally just get it in some weird way? Or is it caused by the interplay with the intellectual evaluation of what just went on?

Regards,
Mike
Brian , modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 1:01 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 1:01 PM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics? (Answer)

Posts: 35 Join Date: 11/22/09 Recent Posts
When you look at an object, you can pay special attention to certain features it possesses. For instance, imagine you're looking at a stop sign. As you're doing this, you can attend to its color, or its shape, or its meaning, etc. There is a sense in which you always see all these things when you look at the stop sign, and yet by means of voluntary shifts of attention you can place special emphasis on some of these features and make them more salient.

I think you can conceive of "seeing the three characteristics of sensations" in largely the same way you might conceive of "seeing (attending to) the shape and color and meaning of the stop sign" in the example above. If you can understand the latter then you can do the former.

Impermanence is probably the easiest. Just attend to the way sensations change over time. That is seeing the characteristic of impermanence. As you access different experiential states during practice, impermanence may manifest in different ways. So although sometimes seeing impermanence might involve relatively exotic phenomena like experiencing very fast flickering sensations, it is not necessary to have such an experience in order to "see" impermanence. No matter what your current experience is like, it is always changing.

Not-self might be a little trickier. Consider that in the relationship between subject and object, whatever is observed by the subject is an object, and whatever is observed is not the thing doing the observing. So everything that is observed is an object, and no objects are the subject. Now consider that all sensations in experience are observed-- including body sensations and mind sensations-- and so none of these is the subject. In other words, all sensations have the characteristic of not-self. If you accept that reasoning, then try applying it to your experience. If you begin to really feel in your bones that all of these sensations are observed and so are not the subject-- even mind/body sensations-- then you are beginning to see the not-self characteristic.

The intellectual component to all this can be useful for guiding practice but is not what practice is all about. It may serve as an expedient means towards an end but it is not the end itself. To go back to the stop sign analogy, understanding the concepts relating to color and shape and language will be useful for attending to the sign's color and shape and meaning, but understanding these concepts is not the same as actually directing your attention to the relevant features of the stop sign and so making them more salient in your moment to moment experience.
Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 4:10 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 4:10 PM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 3/15/10 Recent Posts
Wow, great analogy! Thanks!

I know that I AM noticing that things change (unfortunately not much of a flickering, nor vibration at this stage). But things are varying in intensity and strength and such.
So I guess I am seeing it, but it's like I am not making a fuss about it.
And that makes me wonder whether I have the insight, or if I'll just keep on seeing impermanence this dispassionate way I am seeing it now and that will never bring me any insights. And is there another way of seeing it that does?

Hmmm... this is tough.

And describing it it sounds a lot more complicated than it is.
But because of my craving to see, learn, gain insights, I try to verbalize it (in a loooooot of words) :-D.

Thanks Brian and Pavel for guiding me!
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J Groove, modified 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 5:24 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/3/10 5:23 PM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics? (Answer)

Posts: 59 Join Date: 9/9/09 Recent Posts
Yeah. That was a great response!
Also, don't forget about the role of samatha. Can't hurt to develop more concentration, right?

"Concentration is a skill that develops over a period of years, and the more of it you have, the easier it is to make progress through the nanas, jhanas, and Paths. Gaining concentration is like building a muscle; the more you pump it, the stronger it gets. For those of you who don't yet have a lot of concentration, take heart! You have more than you had a year ago and you will have yet more a year from now. It's like money in the bank, and it just keeps snowballing. If you should feel inspired to improve that particular aspect of your game, get out the kasina and start gazing! This practice works."--Kenneth Folk
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Jackson Wilshire, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 12:12 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 12:12 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics? (Answer)

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I don't know if this will help, but I wrote a short essay on this topic at the Kenneth Folk Dharma site. The essay is titled The Three Characteristics: A Practical Introduction.

Practice well!
~Jackson
Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 3:37 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 3:37 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 3/15/10 Recent Posts
J Groove:
Also, don't forget about the role of samatha. Can't hurt to develop more concentration, right?

It sure couldn't hurt. I am always trying to determine a ratio for what to exercise and always end up with exercising very little samatha, and spending almost all time doing noting emoticon
Maybe I should just try to devise a schedule where I emphasize concentration more.
Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 3:38 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 3:38 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 3/15/10 Recent Posts
Great text! Very helpful, Jackson!

Thanks!
Velvet V, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 5:48 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 5:48 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

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Mike Gee:
"do what you do, the rest will follow"


I disagree with this strongly, it's the worst approach in my opinion. First you need to be acutely aware of what you're doing and what you're doing it for, to know it as well as humanly possible. Otherwise expectations and vague hopes will make you experience fake realizations that have no real bearing in the course of practice, and the whole of your practice will ultimately be a lie.

You follow Theravada, I prefer Mahayana, and as an example I can put out my own misinterpretation of emptiness. Until I started studying the philosophy behind it (actual writings of people who propagated Mahayana with its different branches of philosophy) I couldn't see that it was wrong. Maybe it wasn't *all* wrong, but the emphasis was so different that it ultimately distorted the whole notion of emptiness. That taught me a lot, and now I would advise anybody to do the same, to study the philosophy of their buddhist branch in depth. Otherwise it's a blind approach, and whatever you realize will be an expression of your own vague desires. We're ruled by our minds, and if your mind tells you that X is this or that, then this will be what you will be "realizing" eventually, not the real thing. To avoid being duped by your own self you need to study what the real thing is, first. And no matter if your mind cannot really grasp it, it should grasp it as well as humanly possible first, so that you'd be moving in the right direction in the course of practice instead of leaping aside whenever you encounter something that your mind finds vaguely resembling your own desired results.

What I would like to ask, techniquewise is if there is another way of seeing them?


Maybe, I can't see why not. But who cares, you already have a technique that's supposed to work, inventing something new that could prove to be disfunctional is a dubious idea.

But I am not interested in content analysis, nor pali words, I am interested in moving forward, so this is the place!


That's great but in your shoes I would define for myself what "moving forward" is, because it could be very different from how your buddhist branch defines it ;). Like, there are many unhappy people everywhere that come to spirituality in hope to get rid of negative emotions and in case of buddhism they start to treat it like something that can give you a permanent emotional drug or change your emotions. I'm sure that whatever they achieve, it won't be enlightenment matching the notion of enlightenment in any branch of buddhism, unfortunately, it's more like psychotherapy by a placebo effect. We're pretty much limited to what we consider to be progress, and if we want one thing, then all other possibilities will remain hidden from our view, and I don't believe that they can automatically reveal themselves to those who don't care for them. If you're focused on something specific you're blind to anything that is beyond it! And there's way too much room for all kind of misinterpretation, I'm sure that lots of people would eagerly interprete normal bad mood as "dark night" and such, you can't afford to do it if you care for results.

I guess that the meaning is somehow that staying in this flow of the present moment will ultimately reveal (not intellectually) that everything IS impermanent, etc...


My guess is that it can reveal this, or it can reveal anything else that you will misinterprete as it. Not that it's good to dwell on it all the time, you can say that it's a matter of luck \ karma, but in order to minimize the risk you have to know as well as possible what it is that you're looking for and be cruelly honest with yourself afterwards. And for that studying old texts is helpful, blind action or anybody's advise won't make any difference. My opinion.
Brian , modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 7:18 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 7:18 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

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Mike Gee:
I know that I AM noticing that things change (unfortunately not much of a flickering, nor vibration at this stage). But things are varying in intensity and strength and such.
So I guess I am seeing it, but it's like I am not making a fuss about it.
And that makes me wonder whether I have the insight, or if I'll just keep on seeing impermanence this dispassionate way I am seeing it now and that will never bring me any insights. And is there another way of seeing it that does?


I'd say dispassionate non-fussiness is the way to go. If you are diligently paying close, moment-to-moment attention to how sensations change, there is nothing more you need to do (with regards to "seeing impermanence"). The whole business is about seeing what's in front of you clearly, not about trying to get to any particular experience per se.

"Awakening comes from insight into experience, not from re-shaping experience." - Duncan Barford

You're adjusting the focus on your camera, not worrying about how pretty or interesting the picture you're taking is. If it's a blurry shot of something beautiful or exotic, no good. If it's a clear shot of something completely mundane, great! Keep it up.

It might happen that during practice you experience thoughts and feelings about wanting to get to a certain experience, comparing your current experience with what you want to happen or think should be happening, wondering if you're doing things right, etc. If that happens, no problem. How do you know that you have these thoughts and feelings? You know because they correspond to certain sensations in your current, moment to moment experience. As such, all you need to do is treat these mental sensations about practice the same way you'd treat any other sensations: note them and attend to the three characteristics they exhibit.
Pavel _, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 9:31 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 9:31 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

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Brian M.: Great to have you here.
Mike Gee, modified 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 11:40 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 6/4/10 11:40 AM

RE: How do I see the three characteristics?

Posts: 47 Join Date: 3/15/10 Recent Posts
Brian M:

You're adjusting the focus on your camera, not worrying about how pretty or interesting the picture you're taking is. If it's a blurry shot of something beautiful or exotic, no good. If it's a clear shot of something completely mundane, great! Keep it up.


Another great metaphor. Makes a lot of sense!

Thanks!

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