Trouble getting to Jhana

Trouble getting to Jhana alex 12/6/14 7:12 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/6/14 9:23 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana alex 12/7/14 11:23 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana John M. 12/7/14 9:14 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Richard Zen 12/6/14 10:04 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana John M. 12/7/14 6:34 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana C P M 12/7/14 7:32 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/7/14 10:05 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana C P M 12/7/14 10:32 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/7/14 3:48 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana C P M 12/7/14 5:16 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/8/14 8:37 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Laurel Carrington 12/7/14 7:51 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/7/14 10:06 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana alex 12/7/14 11:29 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/7/14 3:41 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana alex 12/7/14 5:13 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/7/14 11:22 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana alex 12/8/14 1:57 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/8/14 2:03 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana alex 12/8/14 2:47 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/8/14 7:38 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/10/14 2:22 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/10/14 9:21 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/11/14 6:06 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/11/14 4:19 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/11/14 11:04 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/12/14 8:55 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/12/14 10:27 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/12/14 11:16 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Small Steps 12/12/14 12:01 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/16/14 4:11 AM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Small Steps 12/16/14 12:52 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Pål 12/16/14 1:26 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana Incandescent Flower 12/8/14 6:11 PM
RE: Trouble getting to Jhana dhammarelax 12/14/14 12:54 PM
alex, modified 9 Years ago at 12/6/14 7:12 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/6/14 7:12 PM

Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 6 Join Date: 12/6/14 Recent Posts
Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a while but only just decided to make an account here. I have been doing Samatha meditation for about a year now, and have had some encounters with the first Jhana already, but I seem to have hit a plateau and haven't been able to re-enter for several months now. 

The nuances of my meditation method are constantly changing as I like to experiment and figure out what works best. From what I've read, there is no fixed "formula" for getting to Jhana, and so everyone will have some subtle variations in their method. In general, I've been focusing on the feeling or sound of the breath at the nostrils and when thoughts arise or I get distracted for whatever reason, I gently bring my attention back to the breath. I concentrate on the breath as a whole, as a continuous entity rather than individual sensations. I sit straight but keep my body relaxed. Usually I don't control the breath in any way, but at times when I feel drowsy, meditating this way can make me fall asleep if I don't actively control the breath. In those cases I gently inhale and exhale in a rhythmic way that feels most natural. 

At times I feel like I'm nearing Jhana, I feel bliss in my body and I am super-focused on the breath, but no matter how long I keep going it doesn't come. I've done sessions over an hour long but with no success with regards to reaching the first Jhana. Strangely, it seems like I'm concentrating quite well, with no thoughts or distractions arising. Of course the obvious solution would be to keep practicing and not expect any particular outcome, but I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here, which is why I wanted to ask. If I've been able to enter Jhana in the past, does that mean my concentration has become worse, or is there a certain area of my practice that I may have been neglecting?
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/6/14 9:23 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/6/14 9:23 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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alex:
At times I feel like I'm nearing Jhana, I feel bliss in my body and I am super-focused on the breath, but no matter how long I keep going it doesn't come. I've done sessions over an hour long but with no success with regards to reaching the first Jhana. Strangely, it seems like I'm concentrating quite well, with no thoughts or distractions arising. Of course the obvious solution would be to keep practicing and not expect any particular outcome, but I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here, which is why I wanted to ask. If I've been able to enter Jhana in the past, does that mean my concentration has become worse, or is there a certain area of my practice that I may have been neglecting?
Well, this is just a post from my personal experience, and others might differ in opinion on this, but the best advice I was ever given regarding Jhanas is that they are really not these crazy difficult states that you have to work to "attain", rather, they are these really basic natural states that take shape whether or not you are aware of them, on or off the cushion. Basically anytime you focus on feelings of pleasure, rapture, bliss, etc., in a "wholesome" way -- i.e., not getting overly attached to them -- that is Jhana. Think of smelling flowers on a wonderful spring afternoon and then just taking a seat in the grass and soaking up the mild sun when off in the distance you hear someone dear to you calling your name -- that moment of opening your eyes and looking toward where the call came from, that is the moment of coming out of Jhana. The fact that you mention experiencing pleasure at all leads me to believe that you've already attained Jhana, maybe a mild version, but Jhana nonetheless. There is definitely nothing to "strive for" when practicing Jhana -- in fact, the Buddha's advice to "set aside greed and distress with regard to the world" -- and by world, he literally means the five aggregates and six sense doors, i.e., this very moment of experience -- has been for me probably the soundest advice I have followed throughout my meditation experience. There are obviously different levels at which we can become absorbed -- thus the concepts of "hard" Jhana vs. "soft" Jhana -- but this is not something to worry about in your meditation, as worry literally is one of the forces that can most reliably take us away from absorption. As you practice Jhana, you may find at some moment that the mind "lets go" a bit deeper, or cuts off a few processes, and that is usually a sign that you have shifted up to the next Jhana. It is a bit more complicated than that, as you can be in certain Jhanas with "sub-aspects" of other Jhanas, but that's not so much something to worry about until later, when you've better developed your Shamatha skills. The way it is portrayed in the scriptures and elsewhere in "official" Buddhism might mislead you -- as it misled me for a number of months -- into believing that Jhana is something great and earth-shattering(which it is, in a way) that must be full-on "entered". Rather, the only real criteria for Jhana, as it appears to me, is that it be enjoyable, though like I said, others might disagree with me on these points.

My advice would be keep practicing largely as you are, it is something you will get better at with time, especially when your mind finally tires of
comparing itself to its previous states. emoticon If you feel you are really "approaching" something in your meditation, that might better qualify under the terminology of A&P, or Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away, which is a term that is used to describe a certain energy phenomenon that occurs on the progress of insight, which is a whole 'nother and, unfortunately, much more complex topic than Jhana. Good luck and may your practice bring you happiness and peace. emoticon

-Kyle
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Richard Zen, modified 9 Years ago at 12/6/14 10:04 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/6/14 9:51 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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This is just more problems with hindrances. When you concentrate the brain can go into:

1. Sensory desire: the particular type of wanting that seeks for happiness through the five senses of sight, sound, smell, taste and physical feeling.
2. Ill-will: all kinds of thought related to wanting to reject, feelings of hostility, resentment, hatred and bitterness.
3. Sloth-torpor: heaviness of body and dullness of mind which drag one down into disabling inertia and thick depression.
4. Restlessness-worry: the inability to calm the mind.
5. Doubt: lack of conviction or trust.

The antidotes to the above are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_hindrances#The_hindrances_individually

Sensory desire: See impermanence
Ill-will: Metta
Sloth-torpor: Adjust posture, get up and take a break and then return. Open eyes letting light in. Deep breaths.
Restlessness-worry: Investigate why and deal with problems conventionally. If that's not enough you need to continue concentrating and let go of concerns of the world. Concentration creates relaxation.
Doubt: Recognize doubt and see if there's any value in it. See the value of continuing to practice.

As you counter hindrances with antidotes you need to power through with the jhana factors:

1. Applied Thought eliminates Drowsiness and laziness 
2. Sustained thought eliminates Doubt, 
3. Joy or Rapture eliminates Ill Will, 
4. Peaceful Happiness eliminates Restlessness 
5. One-pointed Concentration eliminates Sensual Desire. 

Good luck!
John M, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 6:34 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 6:30 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Hi Alex. Progress along the progress of insight can, somewhat counter-intuitively, really step on your ability to enter jhana. This is frustrating and can have a one-step-forward, one-step-back feel, but this is not at all the case. I was literally a better jhana practitioner at two months of steady practice than I am at two years, so I wouldn't relate jhana mastery too strongly with progress. Incidentally, investigating the sensations of effort and clinging that arise around not being able to call them up can be great insight fodder.

I'd recommend going through Daniel's presentation of the nanas & jhanas mind map if you haven't. Certain nanas are kinda just "in the neighbourhood" of a corresponding jhana, having certain shared qualities that bridge the gap, so to speak, enabling the mind to more easily toggle between concentration and insight modes. Conversely, there are nanas that just don't. There also seems to be some strange meta-level stuff relating to paths that isn't consistent across practitioners where jhana prowess can spike and dip, wax and wane.

While understanding the hindrances is helpful and definitely worth exploring, there are times where the hindrances aren't present and jhana still doesn't arise -- so clearly there must be something else going on. Also, I'd have to disagree firmly with the "if it's pleasurable, it's jhana" assessment.

Edit: you may also want to try switching up your object and explore how that feels.
C P M, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 7:32 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 7:28 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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It took me about two years of daily practice to hit the first Jhana regularly. After another year of daily practice, I upped the number of hours sitting a day during some time off work, and was able to hit the third and fourth Jhana consistently.

Then, after after spending another year of only sitting for 45 minutes a day, I regressed back down getting into first and second Jhana and rarely third and fourth.

So, for me, time spent doing meditation is a huge factor. Lately I've been thinking that Alan Wallace has it right in his book, "The Attention Revolution" concerning the amount of dedication required for concentration mastery.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 7:51 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 7:51 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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I was taught to develop access concentration first with the focus on the breath, and then once that had been secured shift the object of concentration to a pleasant sensation in the body. Some people smile, and focus attention on that. I personally had trouble because smiling would just create tension in my face. Others find the palms of the hands to be a good place to settle. What worked for me was focusing on the heart center. There would inevitably arise a feeling of love and happiness and the attention I settled there would increase it in a self-reinforcing loop. This would propel me into first jhana. Good luck. 
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 10:05 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 10:05 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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How long were your sittings during those two years? 
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 10:06 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 10:06 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
How intense is the pleasure you experience in meditation?
C P M, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 10:32 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 10:26 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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I sat for 45 minutes a day.  Actually, reviewing my notes, I see it took me 3 years. I started to get into Jhana territory consistently when I could hold my attention on the breath for 5 minutes or so without getting distracted.

Up until that time in my practice, it was difficult holding concentration. Things are different now though, it's easier to maintain concentration and enter Jhanas.
alex, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 11:23 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 11:23 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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I had never really considered my position in regards to the Insight stages so far. At this point I'm more concerned with concentration and how it can be improved. After all concentration is the foundation for insight, so this seems like a safe bet for a beginner such as myself. The idea that the Jhanas are natural and not something to attain is a concept I've heard before (one of Ajahn Brahm's talks, maybe?) and have been trying to apply during practice. I sometimes visualize the breath which tends to make concentration easier, sometimes a point on a line moving from side-to-side as I inhale or exhale, or waves, or colors. It really depends on my current state. I'll try to take your advice in mind and "let go" as much as possible, something I've already been working on, as I'll admit there are times when I've been distracted by current issues and worries during meditation, though generally my attention seems to be quite stable. Thanks for the reply, that was really helpful.
alex, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 11:29 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 11:29 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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The intensity of the pleasure varies, it's generally mild but noticeable, like the feeling you get after a long run or while taking a warm bath. I remember it being more intense back when I could enter first Jhana (or near it) somewhat regularly. In a typical session, my mind will become quite focused after a few minutes and the pleasure will start to arise, but then it slowly fades rather than leading up to Jhana.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 3:41 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 3:37 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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You seem to have a strict definition of jhana. What is it? 
When the Buddha talked about first jhana he (most probably) meant non-sensual rapture+non-sensual pleasure+cognitive activity
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 3:48 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 3:48 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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I think I can concentrate on the breath for five minutes, yet I don't get any noticable bliss. The breath gets deeper and my arms start flapping randomly now and then - maybe that takes all of the "bliss energy" instead.
You did two 45 min sits per day? That's a lot more than I do.
C P M, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 5:16 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 5:06 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Pål:
I think I can concentrate on the breath for five minutes, yet I don't get any noticable bliss. The breath gets deeper and my arms start flapping randomly now and then - maybe that takes all of the "bliss energy" instead.
You did two 45 min sits per day? That's a lot more than I do.

Just the one sit per day of 45 minutes. I did that for 3 years and got into Jhana eventually. But also in that time period, I would utilize breaks from work to up the intensity of practice. So, for example, I would spend a week of vacation meditating for 3 hours a day (occasionally longer).

After reading something about concentration progress being measured by how long you can stay on the breath without interruption, I tried to extend that time. I think I could only get 1 minute after a year or two. At the time I was counting breaths, so I could gauge how long I could stay with it.  If I had a distracting thought, I would start again. So, even though it doesn't seem like much, I was trying to concentrate with no distracting thoughts at all for as long as I could, and when I got to about five minutes or so, that coincided with Jhanic factors arising.  My goal was not to "get into Jhanas", because I didn't know what they were.  I was just trying to meet the challenge of staying with the breath.  When the Jhanas arose it it actually freaked me out a bit, and I starting doing research to find out what was going on (that how I ended up on this forum).

For that time period, I also began each session with a meta type practice for a few minutes, wishing everyone I knew freedom from suffering and the root of suffering

I found it very difficult to quiet the mind and stay with the breath. And that’s still true really, but more difficult in the beginning. I was doing all kinds of subtle experiments to see what would help. One thing that definitely helped was the thought of “accepting the present moment”, at times the idea was “facing the present moment”. I could see myself turning away from the present moment, and there was some element of subtle terror in facing it for some reason. It would manifest itself in my mind running off and not facing the present. After hitting the Jhanas, it's much easier staying with the breath. Under ideal conditions I can stay for 30 minutes or so.  But I still often drop out with my mind wandering somewhere.

I think the way it works is that the conditions required for the mind to be stilled are are the same conditions that enable the Jhanas to rise. So, there is the relaxing, the letting go, the accepting, perhaps also compassion for yourself and others.

For the last year I've been increasing the time I spend meditating, and for the last number of months I've been spending 2 1/2 hours a day (broken up into multiple sessions).  I would like get to the point where I can stay with the breath for a full hour, and it will likely take me a couple more years to do that.
alex, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 5:13 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 5:13 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Well personally I treat Jhana as a quite distinct physical state. The first time I entered, I saw a bright yellow nimitta, and there was a clear shift in my consciousness. I'd probably describe it as "zoning in" to the object. My attention was fixed there, and my body became warmer. I felt a static-like feeling across my whole body. I'm not sure if this fits with yours or other peoples' definitions, but that's how I experience(d) it. The Buddha's explanation does makes sense according to this - directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure and one-pointedness are all present, and only when they're present does this state occur. 
John M, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 9:14 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 8:28 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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alex:
At this point I'm more concerned with concentration and how it can be improved.

Which is fine, but that's not to say that insight isn't unfolding anyway. I hit stream entry on the back of what I thought of (at the time) as a floundering jhana practice. There are people that enter into the stages of insight with no formal meditation practice whatsoever, simply by paying attention to reality. If you have enough concentration to have reached jhana, you certainly have enough concentration to have gotten the insight wheels turning.
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 11:22 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/7/14 8:57 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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alex:
Well personally I treat Jhana as a quite distinct physical state. The first time I entered, I saw a bright yellow nimitta, and there was a clear shift in my consciousness. I'd probably describe it as "zoning in" to the object. My attention was fixed there, and my body became warmer. I felt a static-like feeling across my whole body. I'm not sure if this fits with yours or other peoples' definitions, but that's how I experience(d) it. The Buddha's explanation does makes sense according to this - directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure and one-pointedness are all present, and only when they're present does this state occur. 

This is where I'll have to step in and encourage you to familiarize yourself with the term, Knowledge of the Arising and Passing Away, a distinct phenomenon that occurs along the progress of insight and that often manifests in states of heightened energy and/or increased perceptual abilities. If you're interested, there is a book entitled Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha that was written by founder of this site, Daniel Ingram, that I as well as many others on this site would highly recommend. For a long time I was under the impression, based on the suttas, that what I was chasing in my meditation was "Jhana", only to realize that what I was actually chasing (and had experienced numerous times over the course of my life, on and off the cushion) was the A&P. It's important to know if what you're experiencing is A&P, as it can have a whole lot of ramifications on your practice as well as your daily life, and if you're interested in taking up the progress of insight -- and even if you're not -- it will likely be useful to inform yourself of what sorts of things you may be liable to experience after the A&P.

Best of luck,
Kyle
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 8:37 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 8:37 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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 If it took three years for you with that volume, then I guess I don't have to worry about not having attained jhana yet. Or maybe I "should", how long did it take for you to get experiences of piti?
alex, modified 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 1:57 PM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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I'm aware of A&P and have briefly read over MCTB, but I don't believe what I experienced was A&P for several reasons. I've entered the state a few times, and those times were quite spread out. I don't think it's realistic to assume that I've been going through A&P that many times. Another point is that I don't recall anything similar to a Dark Night following those experiences.

If A&P was a state which could be entered somewhat at will, by building up concentration on an object such as the breath, then I would maybe consider that as what I experienced. At the moment I don't think anything can convince me that it wasn't first Jhana, and again it does fit the definition quite closely in my opinion.

But let's suppose that it was in fact A&P. In that case I'll rephrase my question - How would I go about attaining Jhana, knowing the basics of concentration practices? Of course I understand that the Insight stages are important. I just don't want to worry about them just yet (sorry if that sounds slightly ignorant). My goal at the moment is to increase concentration ability and nothing more.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 2:03 PM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Why are nanas ("insight stages") important? Important for what? And if they are important, why did the Buddha never mention them in the suttas?
alex, modified 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 2:47 PM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Important in the sense that they help us to understand "where we are" in regards to Insight progress. Would you really want to go into a Dark Night not knowing what it is? There could be a lot of reasons as to why the Buddha never mentioned them. I don't really have an answer to that question. It could be to do with how subjective they are, but nevertheless they're helpful, or else we wouldn't rely on them so much on this forum and elsewhere.
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 6:11 PM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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alex:
I'm aware of A&P and have briefly read over MCTB, but I don't believe what I experienced was A&P for several reasons. I've entered the state a few times, and those times were quite spread out. I don't think it's realistic to assume that I've been going through A&P that many times. Another point is that I don't recall anything similar to a Dark Night following those experiences.

The A&P may be crossed many times before one makes a progress of insight, and in fact, for the majority of people that is how it goes. If one lets up in practice, for instance, or, on the other hand, if one strives too hard for deliverance, one is liable to "fall off" the insight map, so to speak, and from there expect to encounter the A&P and other stages again, in meditation or in daily life. The insight stages are not as set in stone as they may seem; in some (especially those with experience of the stages) the Dark Night stages are hardly noticed while in others they are more obvious and extreme. Just to add 2 cents from my personal experience: even if the Dark Night stages are relatively subtle, they can still exert a lasting effect. Only recently have I come to realize how much of an effect they have had on my life, even if at the time (well before being aware of insight maps) I would have said I didn't even detect anything was happening.     

If A&P was a state which could be entered somewhat at will, by building up concentration on an object such as the breath, then I would maybe consider that as what I experienced.

For many meditators, that is the case, particularly if one focuses on the use of the faculty of investigation or discernment.

But let's suppose that it was in fact A&P. In that case I'll rephrase my question - How would I go about attaining Jhana, knowing the basics of concentration practices? Of course I understand that the Insight stages are important. I just don't want to worry about them just yet (sorry if that sounds slightly ignorant). My goal at the moment is to increase concentration ability and nothing more.

Nothing to apologize for. It's a crazy ride, not one for everyone, and certainly not ideal in certain life circumstances. I just wanted to warn you that, whether or not one intends to begin the progress of insight, often enough it happens of its own accord, and being aware of the possibile side-effects can be helpful (especially if you cross the A&P and suddenly find yourself unable to meditate well; getting frustrated with yourself is a common enough response, but being aware that it is a universal phenomenon can make it considerably easier to abide and set your practice aright).
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/8/14 7:38 PM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Pål:
Why are nanas ("insight stages") important? Important for what?

It seems to me that you're addressing something or someone larger than me with this question, but since I was the one who brought it up, I'll go ahead and answer as if you had asked me. Before being aware of the insight maps, I had practiced for some time with the goal of liberation, but, going by the suttas and by other works from the monastic community, it still wasn't clear to me exactly "what" I was looking for (it seems to me now that I was seeking out more and wilder A&Ps). Eventually I branched out and, looking elsewhere, came across this website and MCTB and the pragmatic dharma movement in general. After educating myself with the information they presented (and don't be fooled into thinking I wasn't skeptical), I came to understand that I had already attained stream entry and, knowing now that "that" was what I was looking for, have since gone on to attain 2nd and 3rd paths, and a result of this my relationship with myself, with those I know, and with the world as a whole has improved more than I could have imagined possible. Thus, I say that knowledge of insight stages is important.   

And if they are important, why did the Buddha never mention them in the suttas?

I'm not wholly convinced they aren't there in some or another way, but then again I'm not super well-versed and find that forum of argument rather unappealing. It seems to me that the more relevant question is this: if the Buddha's goal was to help sentient beings gain liberation from suffering, and if direct consultation of insight maps has been of great help to people in that endeavor, then what do you think, would the Buddha have considered them important?
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/10/14 2:22 AM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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"... and if direct consultation of insight maps has been of great help to people in that endeavor..."
I'm not really sure if it has. I'm not sure if "vipassana meditation" really is the path to the end of suffering the way the Buddha meant. But if your goal is nanas then of course nana maps should be helpful. 

"...It seems to me that you're addressing something or someone larger than me with this question..."
In a way I think I'm addressing the whole vipassana movement.
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/10/14 9:21 AM
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RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Pål"... and if direct consultation of insight maps has been of great help to people in that endeavor..."
I'm not really sure if it has.

Speaking from my own experience, I am.

I'm not sure if "vipassana meditation" really is the path to the end of suffering the way the Buddha meant. But if your goal is nanas then of course nana maps should be helpful. 

Where did I say it is? Vipassana, Samadhi, and Sila all rely on and feed into one another.

And where did I mention "vipassana meditation"? What do you mean by that term? If you mean noticing the 3Cs, then I would remind you that in the Buddha's own teaching on meditation (anapanasat sutta) the final set of directions involves focusing on inconstancy (1st Characteristic), focusing on dispassion (2nd Characteristic), focusing on cessation (3rd Characteristic), resulting in reliquishment (liberation). If you mean something else (like noting style, or Goenka body scanning), then it wouldn't be hard to show how these styles fit into the broader framework of the sutta. By the way, if you haven't read Thanissaro's breakdown of the sutta into the 16 steps (don't know where to find it at the moment, it was a transcript in pdf form of a talk he gave), I would highly recommend it.

Remember, there is no concentration without discernment, no discernment without concentration.
 

"...It seems to me that you're addressing something or someone larger than me with this question..."
In a way I think I'm addressing the whole vipassana movement.


I would be careful about lumping all of these seperate traditions into one coherent "movement".



Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/11/14 6:06 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/11/14 6:06 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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So you're an arahant (=you have ended suffering) and the nana maps helped you to get there?

I mean all those new (compared to the teachings of Gotama) meditation techniques: mahasi noting, goenka scanning and other "dry" (goenka is dry, right?) methods. Yes, please show how they fit with the suttas, many of which say that one has to go through the jhanas to attain insight, the anapanasati sutta included. That would be nice since the Goenka retreats are cheap but I'm too sceptical to attend to one. 
How is cessation the third C? It makes some sense since I think impermanence is the essence of the other two but still, how do you mean?
I think it's quite obvious that the early steps of anapanasati, being sensitive to piti and sukha, basicly says "notice how you enter jhana" which kind of disqualifies dry vipassana "meditation" as something leading to vipassana since entering jhanas is supposed to happen before one starts looking at the 3C:s. But this is only a valid argument if the anapana instructions actually are 16 chronological steps. How can we know if they are (not a rethorical question)? It would be nice if they were. Sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly, I'm not a native english speaker.
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/11/14 4:19 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/11/14 11:52 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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Pål:
So you're an arahant (=you have ended suffering) and the nana maps helped you to get there?

First of all, you should be careful about how you use terms like "arahant", because you may be projecting what you think enlightenment to be, though you have no experience with it. For example, you say "=you have ended suffering", but nowhere in the suttas (to my knowledge) does it say that arahants have ended suffering. It simply says they have walked the path to the end of suffering and that they have thus fulfilled the holy life. Pain is still pain, aging is still aging, death is still death, and so on. The Path moments themselves are momentary occurences.

That said, a side effect of attaining a Path is, indeed, an overall reduction of suffering. The best way I could describe this is to say the mind gains an intrinsic ability to let things go, all on its own accord. For instance, things you maybe used to think you had to "fight" no longer pose a threat -- they are thoroughly seen to be incapable of harming you and, in fact, never were capable of harming you; it was only the mind's conditioning that led you to believe you had to "fight". That's why "awakening" is a popular way of describing the process; you suddenly find the mental activities you thought were necessary in order to live your life to no longer be necessary, to never have been necessary.

If you read my post below, you'll see that I claim 3rd path (meaning anagami in the popular terminology), not 4th (arahant). This poses a whole new set of problems, since people don't quite agree on a single model of enlightenment. My own experience is that my progression has resembled the hallmarks laid out by various models. I will say that once you've attained a path for yourself (especially, in my experience, 2nd and 3rd), you won't really need the guidelines of a model or other people's judgments to verify it; it will be quite clear to you that things have changed. 

I mean all those new (compared to the teachings of Gotama) meditation techniques: mahasi noting, goenka scanning and other "dry" (goenka is dry, right?) methods. Yes, please show how they fit with the suttas, many of which say that one has to go through the jhanas to attain insight, the anapanasati sutta included.

First of all, I am pretty sure there is some sutta where it is mentioned that there are monks who attained arahantship without focusing on Jhanas, but instead of jumping headfirst into sutta-land I would ask 1) why do you assume that Gotama's anapana instructions represent the only means by which one could use to propel oneself to awakening, and 2) why do you assume that Jhana is not a natural course taken by the contemplative mind, such that one would not be likely to pass through the Jhanas naturally while performing "dry" techniques?

If you consider that the achieving of enlightenment is an innate and universal abilityof the mind, then it would reasonably follow that creating the conditions for enlightenment would be enough; on the other hand, that there would exist one unalterable method for the creation of those conditions would seem a highly suspect proposition.

In that vein, I will give a few examples of how the Goenka technique touches on the tetrads of the anapanasati. Goenka body scanning, in the most basic sense = breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body, though it's a bit slow to begin with. To excel with this method, one will find that one needs to limit the overlay of the mind on the body (i.e., calming mental fabrications, satisfying the mind, steadying the mind, releasing the mind) and not react too much to what's going on (i.e., sensitive to bodily fabrications, sensitive to mental fabrications, sensitive to the mind), even if it feels really good (i.e., sensitive to rapture, sensitive to pleasure). To do this, one must be alert (continuous awareness, i.e., be able to discern when one is breathing in and out). When these conditions are met, the mind will move up (rather naturally, but a reminder can help every once in a while) to focusing on the mental factors of inconstancy, dispassion, cessation, resulting in reliquishment.

All questions of technique aside, the important thing to realize is that, given the right conditions, the mind will do the work for you. The techniques are aimed at providing it with those conditions, but ultimately, there will come a time when you will have to hand the reigns over.


That would be nice since the Goenka retreats are cheap but I'm too sceptical to attend to one. 

As for the organization as a whole, and some of Goenka's teachings, I remain skeptical, as well (I have attended one 10-day). As for the technique, well, I'm not sure if it's the best, but it certainly can be powerful in getting you motivated and getting you to see deeply into what's going on in the mind. The important thing to realize, if you go on a Goenka retreat, is that the technique itself is simply aimed at getting you to connect with what's actually taking place in your own body and mind, all doubts aside: it is all literally happening. Personally I dropped the technique after 2nd path, but I can't say I would be where I am without it, so I suppose I give it a mixed review. 

How is cessation the third C? It makes some sense since I think impermanence is the essence of the other two but still, how do you mean?

When you focus on emptiness, then you focus on a kind of "there is no significance to what's going on, because all of it is not-self" idea, and from that, naturally, the mind starts "stopping"*, so to speak, ceasing its involvement with sensations. It becomes an onlooker. Impermanence is inconstancy, obviously, it is experienced as a kind of merri-go-round of sensations that can't be grasped upon*, and unsatisfactoriness or dukkha is dispassion (recognizing that all sensory contact has to it a certain quality of suffering, even if very subtle, naturally inclines the mind to become dispassionate about contact; it's as if a point of contact is about to be made, but the mind diverts itself at the last moment, and thus the mind is said to make contact with "the undirected"*).

*Note that if you try to put these experiences as I've described them into effect through an act of will, you won't get what you're after. You need to incline the mind to noticing the characteristics themselves, and let it do the work itself.

I hope that clears some things up for you. Best of luck on the road ahead,
Kyle

Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/11/14 11:04 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/11/14 11:04 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
Here are some suttas that say arahants have made an end to suffering:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.003.nypo.html

there are LOTS of them.

I'm pretty sure there is a sutta that mentions monks who have attained nibbana w/o arupa states, but I've never ever read one that says it's possible w/o jhana.

1) Why would I?
2)What do you mean by contemplative mind? Jhanas arise when the hindrances do not. 

Thanks for the clarifications! What's wrong with the organization?
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 8:55 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 8:55 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 87 Join Date: 10/27/14 Recent Posts
Pål:
Here are some suttas that say arahants have made an end to suffering:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.003.nypo.html

there are LOTS of them.

This will be my last sutta-based response. Looking through what you have linked, I don't see "arahants" mentioned once. Nowhere that I know of does the Buddha posit that an arahant is permanently free from suffering. If you notice, you will see that, with each section that the Buddha ends "he has brought an end to suffering", he begins with a conditional word, like "when" and "if". Hence my pointing you in the direction of understanding the Path moments as momentary occurences, peak experiences.

I understand that this may seem a liberal reading of those suttas, but I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't think it was helpful to take a step back and not put so much stress on a goal like "permanently 100% ending suffering".  


I'm pretty sure there is a sutta that mentions monks who have attained nibbana w/o arupa states, but I've never ever read one that says it's possible w/o jhana.

I didn't say they achieved it without jhana, I said without focusing on jhana. Again, in my experience, jhana is something that will naturally occur in a variety of meditation techniques.

1) Why would I?

I assume you mean here, "Why wouldn't I?" To which I guess I would reply, why believe either way? Until you have experienced something for yourself, why make a point of believing anything?

Thanks for the clarifications! What's wrong with the organization?

Goenka is not so subtle in laying out that his goal is to win a better rebirth (and suggesting that yours should be, too). There is even this idea that it is not possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but that maybe in a 1000 lifetimes you will have a miniscule chance, etc. I don't know, you can only really judge for yourself.

Best,
Kyle

Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 10:27 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 10:27 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

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So you think those suttas are talking about some attainment above arahantship? Very liberal interpretation if you don't think there is an end to suffering. What is the goal if not that?? If that's not possible then I don't really know why I'd bother meditating the way I do. I might as well go for siddhis and stuff like that.

I mean why would I as in "I don't". Why do you asume I do?

if your sceptizism against Goenka is because he doesn't believe pari-nibbana to be possible then look at what you just wrote in your last post...
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Incandescent Flower, modified 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 11:16 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 11:16 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 87 Join Date: 10/27/14 Recent Posts
Pål:
So you think those suttas are talking about some attainment above arahantship? Very liberal interpretation if you don't think there is an end to suffering.

That's not what I said. I said Path moments are momentary occurences, peak experiences, and at those moments, suffering is indeed gone. In fact, everything is gone, which is not to say you are "out cold", so to speak, on the contrary your faculties remain bright. Also, you'll see I mentioned that as a result of these moments, one enjoys an overall reduction of suffering; for me, this is inspiration enough.

 What is the goal if not that?? If that's not possible then I don't really know why I'd bother meditating the way I do. I might as well go for siddhis and stuff like that.

Be careful about putting too much weight on your expectations about the path. Why would the universe be obliged to heed your expectations?

if your sceptizism against Goenka is because he doesn't believe pari-nibbana to be possible then look at what you just wrote in your last post...

Never said anything about pari-nibbana, or what happens after death.
Small Steps, modified 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 12:01 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/12/14 12:01 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
Pål:


I'm pretty sure there is a sutta that mentions monks who have attained nibbana w/o arupa states, but I've never ever read one that says it's possible w/o jhana.



Hi Pål,
There are quite a few suttas that mention people (not just monastics) attaining final liberation (arahant) by just hearing a discourse given by the Buddha.

Are you familiar with the Bahiya sutta?


...
Through hearing this brief explanation of the Dhamma from the Blessed One, the mind of Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth right then and there was released from effluents through lack of clinging/sustenance. Having exhorted Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth with this brief explanation of the Dhamma, the Blessed One left.
...
"Monks, Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth was wise. He practiced the Dhamma in accordance with the Dhamma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dhamma. Bāhiya of the Bark-cloth, monks, is totally unbound."



How would you refute this?
dhammarelax, modified 9 Years ago at 12/14/14 12:54 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/14/14 12:54 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 15 Join Date: 11/29/14 Recent Posts
alex:
Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a while but only just decided to make an account here. I have been doing Samatha meditation for about a year now, and have had some encounters with the first Jhana already, but I seem to have hit a plateau and haven't been able to re-enter for several months now. 

The nuances of my meditation method are constantly changing as I like to experiment and figure out what works best. From what I've read, there is no fixed "formula" for getting to Jhana, and so everyone will have some subtle variations in their method. In general, I've been focusing on the feeling or sound of the breath at the nostrils and when thoughts arise or I get distracted for whatever reason, I gently bring my attention back to the breath. I concentrate on the breath as a whole, as a continuous entity rather than individual sensations. I sit straight but keep my body relaxed. Usually I don't control the breath in any way, but at times when I feel drowsy, meditating this way can make me fall asleep if I don't actively control the breath. In those cases I gently inhale and exhale in a rhythmic way that feels most natural. 

At times I feel like I'm nearing Jhana, I feel bliss in my body and I am super-focused on the breath, but no matter how long I keep going it doesn't come. I've done sessions over an hour long but with no success with regards to reaching the first Jhana. Strangely, it seems like I'm concentrating quite well, with no thoughts or distractions arising. Of course the obvious solution would be to keep practicing and not expect any particular outcome, but I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here, which is why I wanted to ask. If I've been able to enter Jhana in the past, does that mean my concentration has become worse, or is there a certain area of my practice that I may have been neglecting?
Hi Alex

In my experience the faster and easier way in to the jhanas is using the Brahmaviharas check instructions here: http://talks.dhammasukha.org/metta-basic-mm-u.html

Keep smiling all the time
dhammarelax
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/14 4:11 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/14 4:11 AM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
yes there are lots of suttas describing people becoming arahants while listening to the Buddha. But I doubt those people had no experience in samma samadhi before. That would not make sense or fit in with the other suttas, describing the eightfold path.
Small Steps, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/14 12:52 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/14 12:52 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
Pål:
yes there are lots of suttas describing people becoming arahants while listening to the Buddha. But I doubt those people had no experience in samma samadhi before. That would not make sense or fit in with the other suttas, describing the eightfold path.


Did you not read the Bahiya Sutta? Nowhere does it mention that he came to the Buddha with any inkling of samma samadhi or the eightfold path, only that he wondered if he wasn't already fully realized.

You can conjecture and interpret how you see fit, of course.
Pål, modified 9 Years ago at 12/16/14 1:26 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 12/16/14 1:26 PM

RE: Trouble getting to Jhana

Posts: 778 Join Date: 9/30/14 Recent Posts
I read it once again now. 
On one hand, the devata does say
, "You, Bāhiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path of arahantship. You don't even have the practice whereby you would become an arahant or enter the path of arahantship."
but this could mean that he hasn't got stream entry yet. He could still be ha hardcore concentration yogi. Two things speaks for this in the sutta: • Bahiya is worshipped 
• He can almost teleport himself/travel extremely fast to where the Buddha is living at the moment. Sounds like siddhi stuff.

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