At stream entry, most people talk about losing the fetter of identity view, but not many talk about losing the fetter of skeptical doubt in the Dharma. For those who have attained stream entry, what exactly does this mean, what is it like, and is true? Is it a limited action thing, i.e. does it literally render one incapable of generating skepticism of the Dharma, or something else? If it is true, then how to explain those who have attained stream entry and beyond and then found it necessary to take a different path. For example, some advanced practitioners at this forum eventually ended up switching over to actualism. How/why would that occur without skeptical doubt that the Dharma could provide them their ultimate salvation?  

Hi

I don't practice actualism so I can't answer those questions, but I'll try to answer the other questions.

To attain stream entry you have to directly know impermanence, suffering and not-self. If you directly know enough of these three characteristics, there will be a moment where you let go enough to have a path moment. That's the moment you enter the stream. After that event you will not doubt that reality is impermanent, suffering and not-self because you have unquestionably seen it for yourself. You have just not fully integrated this knowledge in yourself. So you have moments where you act as if things are permanent, or have a self, but deep down you know it's not true. Much in the same way as a person that acts imoraly, and deep down knows that their actions are wrong.

But, in my experience, the loss of doubt about the three characteristics is not the same as having faith in the three jewels. They're related, but it's only after some time that you realise that the dharma thaught by the Buddha must be true. All of it. And I don't mean every detail presented in the scriptures. I mean that there is faith because everything I have experienced thus far, since the first path moment, confirms the Buddha's words to such an extent, that it's no longer possible to pretend that they are false. It's not that you believe every single thing now. It's that the evidence for the fundamental dharma being true is unavoidable.

How you deal with it may vary, though. It is because greed and hatred are still present that you will try to act as if the dharma is false. You will still have a very big part of you that thinks that lasting happiness can come from worldly pleasures. Deep down you know it's not true, but the habits are too strong to be easily broken. On the other hand, after stream entry, what you directly know about the three characteristics will inevitably take you in the right direction. It's a matter of time and of geting tired of making mistakes that do not bring lasting happiness.

Best wishes.

"For those who have attained stream entry, what exactly does this mean, what is it like, and is true? Is it a limited action thing, i.e. does it literally render one incapable of generating skepticism of the Dharma, or something else?"

After stream entry I knew inherently that I could trust the process I was engaged in - the practice of the dharma. It had been revealed to me by this event that if I followed the instruction I would get the results that were repdicted or, I suppose, promised. Thus the doubt in the actual dharma was reduced or eliminated.

Helpful?

I would second Chris' response.

Call it a revelation, call it a satori moment, call it what you will. It is an inner realization that the path that Gotama taught will bring about the results desired. In my case, it was an inner "knowingness" that this would occur based upon previous knowledge of the path that I had already experienced and confirmed were true. From that point on, there was no stopping my practice until I was able to reach liberation.

It's really difficult to express or emphasize the level of certainty in my mind at the moment that this revelation or realization occurred. It may or may not happen for others with the same intensity that it did with me. It was a matter of "knowing" that this was the right path, and that all I needed to do was confirm the intention of the instructions contained in the discourses and how they applied to my interpretation of them based upon my life experience. My experience with the instructions, in many cases, mirrored what was stated in the discourses would occur. Quite profound and incommunicable to others.

My understanding is that the most valuable outcome of the streamentry (fruition) experience is the long term consequences, more calm, sharper awerness at the arising of the hindrances, a general improvement of personality, seeing this the streamenterer will find very strong assurance that the Buddha knew what he was talking about in so many levels, however this doesnt mean that he understands the how to get to the next level so the change in "faith" is still posible because the path is still not 100% clear, the doubt has been weakened but not erradicated since details of the treaching are not yet clear.

Thought I'd offer the following, from Bhante Gunaratana's book, Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English:



This might speak to why many people in the west report dropping the fetter regarding wrong view of self first. In more traditional Buddhist countries, perhaps it would be more common to hear of the fetter of skeptical doubt going first.

I just want to add something to what I said earlier.

All changes in the dharma path come from correct understanding. You cannot generate enough will power to attain 1st path by will power alone. You cannot generate enough merit to attain the 1st path by good actions alone. The same goes with morality and concentration. The progress in the dharma only occurs with understanding. This is because the cause of suffering is ignorance. And ignorance can only disapear once you understand how you misconceived the world.

More to the point, a sotapana will have to understand why it is that the Buddha's dharma was correct. That moment might occur at stream entry, but it can also occur later. A sotapana will have confirmed confidence in anicca, dhukkha and anatta. He will have confirmed confidence that suffering arises from attachment and aversion. But it is only when a sotapana reflects about the dharma enough to mature this confidence that it becomes unshakeable.

I'm sure there are some cases of people attaining 1st path in an non buddhist setting. In the most extreme case possible, this is what a pacekabuddha goes through. These people will have only confirmed confidence in what they observed. If they ever come in contact with the Buddha's dharma, and they reflect enough, they will turn that confidence into a global confidence about the Buddha's dharma. The point is that this can only come with understanding.

"All changes in the dharma path come from correct understanding."

If by "understanding" you mean an experiential, inherently felt sense of knowing then yes. It is certainly not intellectual understanding that is required. It is much deeper than a concept.

Yes, this is important. What I mean is directly knowing and understanding. It's not an intelectual conjecture, however sound it may seem. It's a knowing that arises from experiencing and directly knowing the three characteristics. So my previous point was that progress in the dharma only occurs with this direct experiencial understanding. Even though there are a lot of things that help, and may even be a requirement, it's only this type of knowing that brings major progress of insight.

What in the world are your traditional and/or real-world sources for these views?

Is there any agreement on what constitutes the fundamental dharma?
-Eva

If you mean among stream winners, I don't think there's a complete agreement. For example, there might be some peopkle who practice yoga intensively and stumble on 1st path. But because they have other beliefs, they might not agree with others on many things, unless they make their deep reflection and compare the teachings of the Buddha with their deep teachings of yoga.

I would say that the only thing that can be fully agreed is the 3Cs and the 4 noble truths in its simplified form. In my experience, I only gained enough trust in the Buddha when I realised that what has been taught by him has been confirmed to such an extent that there's no other reasonable explanation other than "the Buddha was completely right".

But I have to mention that this also has to do with my own skepticism of my attainment for a long time. I wasn't on retreat when I attained it and it seemed very ordinary. Plus I didn't speak with any teacher. It was only when I confirmed the attainment that the full consequences on faith matured.