Seriously whenever I go "oh THAT's how you practice anapana according to the Buddha" I find a new completely different interpretation of the suttas. The biggest difference seems to be in how "sensitive to the entire body/breath body/all bodies (what bodies??)" is interpreted.  I don't have a clue anymore. How do you do it, according to the Buddha? And if it is as easy as "just be mindfull of the breath" then why the heck didn't the Buddha say only that? Yes I've been discussing this before but I'm still lost in sceptical doubt. If "body" in that sutta means just all of the breath, like most buddhists seem to interpret it, it would be pretty easy and comfortable. But then we have the Ajahn Lee=>Ajahn Fuang=>Thanissaro Bhikkhu lieage saying it actually means the entire physical body. Then I heard someone here (was it Nicky?) who said that according to Buddhadasa it means "all bodies" but I didn't really get that. I'm confused as to what the Buddha meant, and meanwhile I just do my own fun variant of anapana, but I don't know where that's going to lead.

Pal: Feel the body as a whole. To do this in a systematic way attend to individual parts of the body and build the mindfulness to include progressively more parts of the body. Once you have a sense of the body as a whole feel the sensations of the breathing while anchored in the body. While view is useful, you will not figure this out by reading interpretations, but by putting the instructions to use. 

Yes this is the Lee/Fuang/Thanissaro interpretation which seems to fit very good with the kayagatasati sutta aswell. But does that kind of anapana practice lead to the same kind of jhana which is reported from people using other interpretation, such as focusing on breath sensations at a single spot in the body, usually the nose? If it does, then why do you think the Buddha taught us to develope full body awareness like you describe?

maybe I'm not doing the step of progressively including more body parts well enough in my practice which is why I don't really get to full body awareness. Being sensitive to the entire body was initially the goal of my scanning method but I dropped that since that seems to take lots of effort for nothing and the scanning itself seems to have fun results (spontaneous movements, increased present moment concentration).

howdy pal.
i hear you.  i let that bother me too for a while and came to the conclusion that it simply wasn't helpful to my practice to wonder which 'body' was the buddha's intent in the suttas. 

i found that analyos breakdown of the satipaatana (sp) sutta was helpful in lots of ways.  it is flexible and an excellent guide from the more solid to the more subtle.  it also freed me from my fixed idea that it was always one meditation which needed to be accomplished in one go.  although that is certainly one great sit each of the four main parts can be a life's work.

the 'easy way' you mention is easy and pleasant,,; whats wrong with that?  sometimes its simply relaxing and fun and sometimes its deeply inspiring.  the 'tough way', or the analytical way can also be really productive for me.  once into the dhamma (4th) pattana (sp) i let each one guide my sits and try to let them inform all of the sensations which arise with their unique perspectives.

my advice is to not worry about what a body means in this context.  there is much discussion about this point but not much to be gained from it IMO.  after all, from the buddha's perspective there is no body 'as such', which , taken another way could mean that 'anything' could be a body.

the sensations are the key, whether taken as a broad flux or as fine as you can bore down into them.   feel them all without the distraction of definition or concepts or try to see them through the filter of the dhamma categories.  that has helped me.

tom

The simple answer is no, they don't lead to the same jhana. Teachers who prescribe the building of concentration through following the breath at the tip of the nostrils (Pa Auk Sayadaw, Shaila Catherine) describe a jhana where there is no awareness of body sensation. They have a different standard, and definition than those who teach full body awareness breathing in which if my memory is correct regarding the suttas the body is bathed in delight. I'm fairly certain that the Buddha in the Pali suttas never described following the breath at the tip of the nostrils. I believe the practice comes from Hinduism. One criticism leveled against that way of practicing is that it is disembodied, and it is pleasant while in the throes of it, but once one comes out there is a jarring quality to not being in that state, where as full bodied awareness tends to be more integrated. If you are interested in the differences Richard Shankman has a book on comparative Samadhi, and he has some videos on the differences here Samadhi  .

I have been suspecting that these are two different kinds/definitions of jhana which is a problem since buddhist meditators tend to throw out jhana without specifying what they mean and I think this leads to misunderstandings. I'm not sure which of them the Buddha meant when he said jhana. The full body awareness kind of jhana seem to be well supported by suttas like Kayagatasati, which talks about filling the body with the jhana "factors". But then there is the Maha-Saccaka sutta which says that the piti and sukha of jhana "has nothing to do with sensual pleasure", and this might support the interpretation that in the jhanas the Buddha talked about there are no input from the five senses at all. 
I'm confused.

Isn't Analayo one of those who interpret sati as "bare awareness" and not memory? That kind of lower's my confidence in him since in the suttas sati clearly means memory. Wow, I'm really caught up on details haha but I try not to be that while meditating
Like you say, I probably shouldn't worry about it. But it bugs me off the cushion...

Pal, you're in a thought loop.  Best thing you can do right now is take a one-week vacation from reading or posting about these things.  Information overload has been a big problem for me a few times before too.  This is the only way to solve it.

hey,
the definition from analyo which sticks with me is the subtitle 'the direct path to enlightenment', where 'direct' is what most varies from other interpretations.  others interpret it as the 'only' path amoung other things.  i find his definitions to be right in line with my experience.  memory, for example, is an integral aspect of the aggregate of 'perception'.  that fits with me.

its good to know what the target is so i understand completely the struggle with the interpretation of 'body', i did too, until i didn't.  it didn't help me because there was no definite resolution.  now i'm down with both definitions being right.

btw..i think shankman's book was almost completely valueless.  his fundamental definiitions / interpretations of jhanas do not match mine and so the basis for all his further conclusions were suspect.  but that might just be my prejudice.

peace

I sent you this link, right? http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/mindfulness-is-not-sati/

Basically, sati originates from the word for memory, but when the Buddha used it, he was saying "make a mental note" - that is, paying attention to the bare awareness of the present moment.

J C
please have a look at this
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.030.than.html

I hope this resonates with you in some way, Pål. From MN63, Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta --

It's probably true that the students who were given the anapanasati sutta was advanced, it's actually oke of the forst thing stated there. In the Dipa sutta however, which contains the same instructions, it's said that anapanasati samadhi is a good way to attain jhanas, so I guess we can read between the lines here that some of the students who were given the instructions hadn't hit jhanas yet.
I think the user was called Nicky, is that another account for Nikolai?
So you think the "all bodies" interpretation might include the astral bodies? That's possible I think, since stuff like touching the sun and the moon which is mentioned in the suttas must refer to out of body experiences.
what kind of meditation do you mean we have to practice before we can do anapana as taught by the buddha? Maybe the first two steps of just knowing the in and out breath? THAT could really explain the big mystery of why so many great masters like Ajahn Maha Bua gave so much more simple anapana instructions than the Buddha: they were talking to a broader audience Then maybe I should simplufy my practice a lot and jus be aware of breath at a single spot, like maha bua, pa auk and many more suggests.

Yes, that's an instance where he's specifically talking about memory of the past, but words can be used in more than one way, and there are other passages where it refers to the practice of making a mental note of the present moment. They do go together - paying attention to and noting the present will help you remember it later.

Not Tao, and other masters here, do I have your permission to practice the way I'm currently doing during my vacation week? Please check out my other panic thread about reviewing my homebrew practice

Well, I think my question is kind of relevant in how to remove the arrow... It's not as if I'm asking "Is there a self??" Or "How does kamma work?" 

Well, no one can help if you choose to remain with that poisoned arrow stuck in you. 

What do you mean? I must go with one interpretation since the Buddha isn't around, right? And I can't see how single spot and entire body concentration could go together, for example.

"The interpretation ... is something he did say at every opportunity."

Could you document that statement?  Where did he explain an interpretation, and where are quotations showing that?

So, pick one and practice that for six months (start with two practice periods a day, 30 minutes mininum). If at the end of six months, there's still some lingering curiosity regarding the other technique, switch to that for six months. Rinse. Repeat.

If you come across some new, scintillating, heretofore unconsidered interpretation of technique xyz, put it on the backburner and give yourself till the end of your six month practice period before even considering it.

Sure, you could be doing it all wrong and in six months be more confused than ever, but hey, did you ever consider you could be doing it all correctly and in six months be that much further down the path?

Best of luck to you.

the term 'sabba kaya' means 'all kaya'. the word 'sabba' in Pali means 'all', such as the phrases 'may all beings be happy' or 'all things are not-self'.

in the anapanasati sutta, the buddha said:

therefore the Buddha said there is more than one 'kaya'

buddhadasa's view can be read at the link:

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing.htm

please consider the goal of dhamma is to understand suffering. buddhadasa's explanation accords with this goal

where as merely observing the entire physical body would merely be a concentration exercise, devoid of any wisdom or understanding about suffering

the last 14 steps of ananapanasati start with the words: "he trains himself", which means the 'three trainings' of morality, concentration & wisdom must be fully present & engaged

if the meditator cannot see the cause & effect relationship between: (i) the state of the mind; (ii) the state of the breathing & (iii) the state of the physical body then there is no wisdom training occuring about suffering & its cessation 

best wishes

From the Majimma- Nikaya version of the satipatthana sutta as interpreted by Analyo - cut from the 'refrain' section on contemplation of feelings:

In regard to feelings one abides contemplating feelings internally....externally....internally and externally.

Or one abides contemplating the arising... the nature of passing away ...the nature of arising and passing away in feelings.

Or mindfulness that "there is feeling" is established in oneself just for the sake of bare knowledge and for the sake of continuous mindfulness. 

And one abides independent, not clinging to anything in the world.

Small Steps: In order to save six months for me, could you please look at this?

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5640260

And other people to, I'd love to have your opinions on how I'm currently practicing.

actually I have been doing that for about six months now. I've changed the words ans the "body road map" a bit but otherwise I've been practicing pretty much the same way for months.

Chris Macie:
"Could you document that statement [using 'bare awareness']?"

tom moylan:
"...From the Majimma- Nikaya version of the satipatthana sutta as interpreted by Analyo ..."

Thank you, that explains it. I've read both Analayo's books on the topic, and his interpretation is clearly biased in that direction.

Btw. Someone mentioned here about the use of 'direct path' (Ekāyano maggo), which Analayo makes a big deal of; and others translating it as 'only path'. There's general agreement that 'ekāyano' literally means something like 'one-way path',  a path that goes to only one goal. Apparently Bhikkhu Bodhi borrowed the 'direct' term from a German translator ('direkte Weg') as part a policy to use single English words to each Pali word.

Ajahn Sujato likes to use 'convergence,' and argues from the historical evidence that the Anapanasati-sutta is more original and practice oriented, the Satipatthana sutta being later and more synthetic to represent a sectarian bias then developing in the Theravada to emphasize vipassana. His book 'A History of Mindfulness,' available online, is a good counterbalance to read along with (or before or after) Analayo's books. Both authors survey multiple sources from various canons/traditions, and actually collaborate in some of that research, but have differing interpretations, well-argued on both sides.

Reading the link now, great stuff. 
Yes the sutta states that the breaths are bodies among bodies? Among which bodies? Where does it say in the sutta what bodies/groups/collections are included in sabba kaya?

But ok, if the sutta is directed to newbies as well and says we should experience "all bodies", which bodies are included?

So to begin with we could just pay attention to breath sensations in any part of the body, so that we're experiencing physical body impressions while knowing that we're breathing in/out? Doesn't this mean my method should work? Maybe I should drop the affirmations, which I do during many of my sitting sessions anyway. Physical sensations always come asfirst priority, and some times they get so strongly experienced it's almost impossible to think in words at the same time.

Btw, do you know any other suttas were kaya means something else than physical body?

I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and out-breathing.

The breath:
As far as I can tell, in the Buddhas time the in and out breath was considered one of several pranas (sort of meaning winds) that made up the body. In Thailand to this day they use the word ‘lom’ and the breath is one type of lom. A sensation of movement like gas pains is another type of lom and so the breath-lom may be seen as one lom among loms. I believe this is a similar understanding to how it was viewed in Buddhas culture.

As the body was seen to be composed of a bunch of pranas, the term body among bodies is referring to one prana (breath) among many pranas (making up the body) - just one of a bunch as in: don’t make a big deal out of it.

In other words, the term body among bodies is saying in contemporary language: when the breath is experienced just as bodily sensations like any other bodily sensations found in the body then you get this part of it.

This statement (body among bodies) falls within the section of the anapanasati that deals with fulfilling the four foundations of mindfulness. It has one section for each of the four foundations. The pattern repeats itself for each of the 3 other foundations with some variation:

The basic pattern is: ...having put away covetousness and grief for the world. I say.... That is why ..., having put away covetousness and grief for the world.

With regard to feeling: I say that this is a certain feeling among the feelings, namely, giving close attention to in-breathing and out-breathing. That is why...

For mind: I do not say that there is the development of mindfulness of breathing for one who is forgetful, who is not fully aware. That is why...

For impermanence: Having seen with wisdom the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he closely looks on with equanimity. That is why ...

A key statement is having put away covetousness and grief for the world which has the same general meaning as ‘secluded from sensual desires’ that is required to enter into jhana - that is, my mind is no longer getting caught-up in all kinds of thoughts about what I did, need/want to do, what will happen if..., etc. The mind is simply settled in on the breath.

The term sensual desires is widely misunderstood.

My current take on this section of the anapanasati:
Form: Attend carefully to the sensation of breathing as simply a pattern of sensations and not as ‘breath’. While breathing in and out try to keep relaxing the tendency to see the body as a thing and view it just as sensations. Try to maintain this awareness and practice as continuously as possible so as to not get distracted by random thoughts - this takes time.

Feeling: When the mind is calmed down a bit and more attentive to the breath on a regular basis then attend to the sensations of breathing as being pleasurable - this takes time and requires a relaxed yet attentive awareness. Attend to and cultivate this pleasurableness because it feels good. This is seeing under the mental formation of ‘breath’ into its deeper more subtle nature.

Mind: when the mind is able to stay with the pleasurable feeling developed above:
- gladden the mind:  the mind now no longer caught up in all kinds of random thoughts and feelings - noticing this there is a sense of gladness/peace/ease which is noticeably nicer than before - attend to and cultivate this gladdening of the mind. Metta (a feeling friendliness can be made good use of here).
- concentrate the mind: this means to steady the mind - developing an awareness that is smooth, steady,and uninterrupted by disturbances like random thoughts.
- liberate the mind: independent of the regular patterns of thinking that we have grown accustomed to. Notice this liberation - an awareness that stands free of those involvements.

In the first three sections one puts away greed and distress with the world - implying an intentional act while in the final section one abandons it due to wisdom - there is no longer interest because you see that abandoning these activities is much more enjoyable than engaging in them.

At this point, sati as a factor of awakening has been developed. A continuous steady awareness that is no longer involved with worldly concerns and pleasantly grounded in the subtle sensations of the body.

Can't say if this is how Buddha meant it but it works for me and makes sense (to me anyway).

I think the affirmations might fit in sonce the vitakkasanthana sutta teaches us to replace unskillfull thoughts with skillfull thoughts. Also they make concentration on the breath more effortless. But I'll try both and see if there is any difference in results! 

The word 'kaya' means 'group' or 'collection', such as in the term 'Nikaya'. In the Pali term 'sakkaya-ditthi' ('self-view'), 'kaya' refers to the five aggregates as the 'group' or 'collection' viewed to be 'self' or 'one's own'.

However, in Anapanasati or Satipatthana, since there are four foundations (physical body, feelings, mind & truth) we should simply take 'kaya' to refer to physical things, namely, the breath & the physical body.

An important term is 'kaya sankhara', which MN 44 identifies as the breathing in & out.

Instead of teaching 'experiencing sabbe kaya' in Step 3, the Buddha could have also taught 'experiencing kaya sankhara' (the same as in Step 7 about 'experiencing citta sankhara'). The meaning would remain the same.

Please note: step 4 is 'calming the kaya sankhara', which means 'calming the breathing in & out'.

'Kaya sankhara' is erroneously translated as 'bodily condition' or 'bodily fabrication' where it should properly be translated, according to common sense, as 'body conditioner' or 'body fabricator'.

If you can comprehend the term 'kaya sankhara' then you should understand the meaning of Step 3.

Step 3 is simply experiencing how the different kinds of breathing (long, short, smooth, rough, etc) condition or influence how the physical body feels.

If the breathing is long, refined & smooth, the physical body will feel relaxed & comfortable (and also the mind).

If the breathing is short, agitated & rough, the physical body will feel stressed & agitated (and also the mind).

It is as simple as that. The problem is it is difficult for people to accept Budhadasa is right & the rest are wrong.

It is the same as playing sports. If the breathing is efficient when playing sports then performance is good. If the breathing is poor when playing sport, running or swimming then there is struggle.

If we read Thanissaro's internet book 'Shape of Suffering', he correctly explains 'kaya sankhara' as I have, in that the kaya sankhara in the 2nd link of Dependent Origination conditions the rupa (physical body) in the 4th link of Dependent Origination.

Try to keep in mind meditation is about undertanding suffering & peace. Best wishes  

So the sabba kaya part basicly means experiencing anither one of the breaths functions? Then that must mean that both entire body and single dpot breath awareness must work as long as obe gets this thing. But why doesn't the sutta just say "breathing in long he understands that breathing in long his body is calmed" or something like that ehich is more right to the point then the kind of weird formulation "experiencing all bodies?" 

Is there NOWHERE in the suttas whee sabba means entire? 

Wait a second. In the contrxt of asubha bhavana, the Buddha quite clearly tells us to do scanning I think. If that's what he means in the Anapanasati instructions, then why doesn't he express it as clearly as in the Asubha instructions?

Probably because he didnt say everything or anything that is in the suttas and people wrote new stuff, rewrote and restructured etc. Its not like its written on stone tablets ;). Best not to make a big deal off it.

The suttas/agamas are our oldest and therefore most reliable source of the words of the Buddha, although they aren't perfect. What is you source of the Buddha dhamma? Is it maybe Sri Ajahn Sayadaw Mahathera who's meditation technique is based on his teacher's teacher's teacher' method inspired by his teacher's teacher's teacher's interpretation of the suttas and the visudhimagga? I prefer going straight to the source ;)

well sometimes we of course have to get help from the tradition and teachers and intuition and stuff to see what the Buddha meant since there are some 2500 years between us and the canon.

Im just pointing out that discrepencies are unavoidable given the source material. If you are not a fundamentalist buddhist its not an issue. Pick some stuff that have worked for other people and try it.

I think that's sad. What do you mean by work? People actually seem to get different results. And I'm not sure if this mahasi/mctb path has much to do with the path that the Buddha was pointing to. In the suttas there is no mention of nanas, no division into samatha and vipassana as methods, even though these things seem to be a great deal in mahasi/mctb. So If by "working" you mean leasing to the state if the Buddha and the first real arahants, then how can we know for our selves? By trying to practice exactly by the suttas, I guess.

Pal,

      I know you have been flooded with advice and opinions. Hopefully this doesn't just become another one of those, but here goes: If you are attracted to the Pali texts because you sense they are authentic, surely the experience of individuals practicing today are just as or more authentic. The suttas were written in a specific cultural context a long time after the Buddha had passed so if one is looking for direct knowledge of transformation who better than individuals alive today who are transforming their perception to whatever degree those on this board have done so and are to be believed. 
       Secondly, and this I believe is the good news, there are those today who practice, talk about jhanas, experience transformations and talk about it, and hew closely to the original Pali suttas. The most well known I know of is DhammaSukha . I have heard good things. They also do online retreats free of cost for anyone with internet access who is willing to practice their minimum requirement, which I think is only like an hour a day. Be well.

Bill

Pal, it's best to ignore these kinds of statements. My experience with meditation based on the suttas hasn't included a dark night. Rather the opposite, in fact.

Werent the issue at hand that the instructions in the suttas werent very clear? Then how can you meditste according to them and not your own interpretation of what they meant?

You always are such a kind and thoughtful poster, Pawel.

Yes I've been into Vimalaramsi a bit but his instructions do not seem to fit very well with the vitakkasanthana sutta, if those instructions are meant to be applied during other practices such as anapana, metta etc. But his method seems great and his story is awesome. He was proclaimed arahant by Mahasi-schooled masters but he didn't believe them so he started studying the suttas and found a new method. Most of what he says makes a lot of sense.

I don't think I am remaining in place. I am getting more and more skilled at concentration and letting go. Weird stuff happens in my body and people comment on how peaceful I seem. This might be placebo though, I don't know. 
Again, there is no mention of dark nights in the suttas. 
But then I'm going to start doing goenka sooner or later since that's the cheepest retreat choise I have, and maybe I'll get some spiritual stinginess then.

Dude, I have no more ideas haha. Ok though. Do your thing, let us know what you find.

OMG MY BODY DOES ACTUALLY SLAP ITSELF SOMETIMES DURING SPONTANEOUS MOVEMENTS. I wonder if that is due to doubt. 

Edit: And by the way, without the vitakkasanthana affirmations (I have cut out most of my breath paced affirmation now), sometimes there seems to be more room for doubt. So I'll try out Ajahn Brahms advice now in the scanning stages: to breath in and think "shut" and out "up".

I missed this post, it is awesome.

"try to keep relaxing the tendency to see the body as a thing and view it just as sensations"

This makes sense. Do you think that is the meaning of relaxing kaya sankhara? How does that fit with the explanation in the sutta that the breath=kaya sankhara?