I was doing breath Meditation, focusing on my abdominal and chest area. After around 35ish minutes, I experienced a pleasurable sensation around my chest area. I ignored it at first and continued focusing on breathing, trying to remain equinamous. But I guess my attention eventually gravitated towards it, and it started growing stronger. 

The feeling started to remind me of an orgasm, and I started becoming aroused. Eventually I started breathing hard and laughing and tensing up, giving in totally to the pleasure and yearning and craving for more. I guess that probably killed it, because shortly after, the intensity faded quickly and the pleasure sensation was mostly gone. 

How do I interpret this? Is this pleasure just some weird mind fart, or is it the beginning of jhana? Did I finally reach jhana? Is it supposed to be sexual? Or did I simply interpret it as such? Did I fuck it up by reacting strongly to it, when I should have remained non reactive? 

This was my most intense session. I'm afraid my next session will involve a lot of craving for that intense sexual pleasure again, which will prevent me from ever reaching it. 

This sounds like piti to me, it's a very physical feeling IME and could be interpreted as sexual, sure.  Most likely what caused it to stop was the mental proliferation that you described.  Truth is, you don't have to do anything but relax and let it happen.  Next time if you feel excited, just be excited.  It's the feeling that something needs to be held on to, changed, or controlled that causes the process to reverse.  If you just allow what is happening to continue happening (even if it means you feel excited), the process will continue.

Even the yearning and craving you describe - you can rest within it. Let it be okay that there is yearning and craving. It's unlikely such a wonderful experience could happen without some kind of wanting and clinging to happen. So just let it. You'll notice after this happens a few times that it's letting go, specifically, that causes the pleasure. The mind directs itself towards these experiences when you drop the idea of expending effort to cling or avert any experience.

If you cling to the piti, you will lose the jhana, but if you let it come and go mindfully, you'll get the third jhana with sukha. Same process all the way through, and each jhana is better than the last one.

So if I am interpreting your post correctly, you are saying to continue focusing on my object(breathe) and accept the pleasure/craving/yearning as any other sensation or thought. Acknowledge and accept those sensations and thoughts, then return to my breathe. Correct? 

Do I have anything more to gain from going deeper into jhana? Or should I now switch over to insight, now that apparently my concentration is decent enough to be able to get into jhana, even if its just for a little while? My goal for meditation is not pleasure, but equanmity. I want to feel no aversion or craving to any experience in life. I don't want to be attached or clinging or chasing after certain mental states. 

To be honest, I am actually a bit afraid of going into jhana again. It's funny because jhana was the whole reason I started meditating seriously, and now that I almost attained it, I feel averse to the pleasure, that I might become addicted to it and chase it futilely. 

Jhanas are great for getting into equanimity. The 4th Jhana corresponds to Equanimity Nana, so one approach is to go 1st Jhana -> 2nd Jhana -> 3rd Jhana -> 4th Jhana, then switch to vipassana. Check out this blog post on the Hamilton Project.

What you experienced was just a burst of piti, rapture. It's no big deal, just something that happens sometimes. For me, it's rare to experience strong bursts of pleasure like that. You can let go of the worry of being addicted to the pleasure - it's really not an issue. Worry instead about not spending enough time in jhana - it's really important and helpful for you!

Hi JC:

You say to let go of the worry of being addicted to pleasure, but the article you linked mentioned the danger of becoming a "jhana junkie". That is what I am afraid might happen to me. Why is that something I shouldn't worry about? I

According to the scriptures, when the hindrances are in abeyance, the jhanic factors may then arise. They are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha (and ekkagata). When all are present, you are then able to enter and abide into first jhana. It is possible to manifest these qualities distinctly without being in jhana. Keep practicing and see for yourself how things progress.

If piti arises and there is a corresponding grasping for the very pleasant effects, how present then is the hindrance of sense desire? If it is there, how can there be jhana? This isn't a rhetorical question, and I'm sure you can answer it for yourself.

You want enlightenment. That's not going to go away just because you experience some pleasurable jhana. You know that concentration leads to jhana and from there insight leads to enlightenment, right? Jhana is not so addictive that you will just get sucked into it. You're acting like it's heroin rather than a natural and healthy pleasure that enhances insight meditation and helps lead to enlightenment. It's ok to crave the pleasure - judging yourself as bad and backing away from the jhanas that will help you get to enlightenment is only compounding the problem. I spent the days before stream entry in some really deep jhana and it's what helped me get there.

I promise, it's really not something you need to worry about right now. If you've spent years and years cultivating jhana and haven't done any insight for a while, then worry about it. Right now you're like someone who's really out of shape but afraid to exercise because you're worried you'll get addicted to the endorphins from exercise.

What happened to you was an unusually strong burst of piti - not typical and not something that I experience in jhana. What happened was that you started thinking about sex and got turned on and got distracted. It's not a big deal, just something that happens.

"My goal for meditation is not pleasure, but equanmity. I want to feel no aversion or craving to any experience in life. I don't want to be attached or clinging or chasing after certain mental states."

This, exactly, is what causes jhana to arise for me. If you feel intense pleasure, there is no need to run towards it or away from it. Pleasure and insight are intimately linked. Equanimity grows from the pleasure, since the pleasure can be seen as the letting go itself. It isn't the state of mind that is rewarding, it's the fact that effort can be dropped, tensions can be dropped, and the mind can just rest.

If your attention naturally wants to rest in these pleasant feelings, and you try to direct the mind back to the breath forcefully, then you are creating aversion towards the pleasure. The thing that seems to work best for me is to allow the pleasant feelings and accept them the same way I allow the negative feelings and accept them. By stopping my interference with negative mental states, they go away on their own and create positive mental states instead. If I stop interference with positie mental states as well, they go away and become a perfect stillness. This perfect stillness is completely without desire of any kind and can be carried with you during the day.

A good quote from a mahamudra teacher (though I don't remember exactly who said it): The problem isn't enjoyment, the problem is clinging.

EDIT: If it's any consolation, I stopped practicing jhana a while back, and my whole practice stagnated.  Now that I am practicing again, everything is so much improved I'm actually kind of amazed.  IMHO, jhana is the path itself.  There are lots of teachings that talk about jhana like some kind of pleasure trip or drug, but I can guarantee it's nothing like that.  There is no such thing as a "jhana junkie."  Jhana has a stabilizing effect on the mind that allows you to see very clearly and let go of more and more all the time.  Piti and sukha begin to show up during the day when you aren't even practicing.

I agree - nicely put.

Thanks, guys. After more contemplating, I've also concluded the same, that jhana and pleasure is a fine thing to experience. I just have to be careful not to chase that state, and let it happen when it happens. I've always found meditation to be a boring chore that I have to force myself to do, but if I could regularly enter states of extreme bliss without craving or aversion, then this will be the push I need to get really deeply into my practices and sit for long hours. 

---- 

Sorry, I have so many questions but I feel bad that I keep making new threads so I will just use this one. I am so appreciative that something like this forum exists..

I googled around and found this link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/jhananumbers.html
"In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk."

The way I have been focusing on my breath is either on my nostrils or on my abdominal/chest. I focus on specifically those areas of my body, and give no importance to anything else that tries to grab my attention. I certainly don't want to waste my time with a flawed method of concentration. Should I try to expand my awareness of breathe to my entire body, even though that will be much harder to reach a strong enough one pointed concentration to get me into deeper states?

How do I interpret this?

I agree with Not Tao - piti - same as Than Geof’s breath energy.

Is this pleasure just some weird mind fart, or is it the beginning of jhana?

Certainly it’s a platform for jhana. It’s what underlies all other sensations and feelings - even pain and fear.

Did I finally reach jhana? Is it supposed to be sexual? Or did I simply interpret it as such?

People disagree on what constitutes jhana but I think most would say that there has to at least be the ability to rest with these sensations for some period of time. Sexual? No but the sexual aspect makes sense - sexual energy is basically breath energy of a certain flavor that the mind tags as ‘sexual’ thus leaving it open to lots of mental perceptions and thoughts that kind of carry us away in that direction - so yes, you interpreted it that way - it reminded you of it - one thing leads to another.

Did I fuck it up by reacting strongly to it, when I should have remained non reactive?

Yes, but you’re certainly not alone. You can learn to cultivate it - neither non-reactive nor reactive. As Not Tao says - you don't have to do anything but relax and let it happen. Mind and body relaxation - where the mind can just stay with body sensations without tensing-up around them will bring it up. It will follow your awareness which is how you can spread it to other parts of the body.

This was my most intense session. I'm afraid my next session will involve a lot of craving for that intense sexual pleasure again, which will prevent me from ever reaching it.  

It will come back. I think you will see through the sexual aspect pretty quickly. Cultivating this will lead to your long term sense of well being and happiness - it’s true. It has many benefits. Play with it. Explore it.

I'm just getting back into jhana practice myself here. I started a few weeks ago trying to be very concentrated and one-pointed, and I found the method has self-corrected into a more fluid full body awareness. The key was acknowledging the various bodily tensions I was being distracted by (as well as the agitated emotional states) and letting them relax. The one-pointed quality happens as distractions are resolved and forgotten.

So maybe the best way to look at it is that when a distraction comes up, don't try to force your attention away from it, just make sure you are still aware of your main object (so for you, the breath). Think of it like an anchor to keep the awareness from jumping around so much, rather than a bulls-eye that must be hit. A slack, springy rope will keep the boat in place but let it ride the waves as well. Something to consider - if you're trying to move awareness away from something, you're actually putting more focus on it because you're checking to make sure it's gone. So, to let go of it, you need to let go of the idea of keeping track of it as well and trust that, when it's gone, you won't still be bothered by it. Haha, sounds kind of dumb to say it like that, but that seems to be what the mind is doing.

One of the things that got me back to concentration practice was that I kept hitting this odd conceptual wall. I realized that all I needed to do to be completely and perfectly content in this moment was to stop trying to protect myself and hold the world in a certain shape. I might think something like, "If only my car was fixed, I wouldn't have any other problems right now." But then I'd fix my car and it would be, "if only my job was more stable." Perhaps some more skillful thoughts would follow this like, "if only I could be equanimous about my car being broken, I wouldn't have to deal with this worry." Maybe the concept of heaven is that everything we could think of resolving is just resolved - all the people we meet think we're funny, and they're very forgiving for any mistakes we might make, and there's never anything that fluxes outside of our happy routine, even though things change just enough to keep us interested. But, of course, people get angry at us and our car's break and there's just always something to worry about. Even the monks in their cloisted and quiet monastaries will have a bunkmate who snores, or a spider in their room, or a whole week of food they don't like much.

Anyway, not to go on a tangent, I realized it was going to be impossible to make the correct conditions, even internally, where I could be safe all the time. I couldn't fix all my opinions and judgements to be just right to mesh with reality. This sounds like a "well, duh" sort of thing considering the main talking points of Buddhism, but I think there's something deeper here. I think that very fact that there is nothing to stand firmly on is what you can anchor to for safety. You can just say, "hell with it," and stop putting any attention on the negativity.

So, with concentration, what you're doing is detaching from those negative mindstates that you're holding on to for support, those mind states that you feel are protecting you from the world. Anxiety is an attempt to keep something from being forgotten. Guilt is an attempt to prevent future mistakes. Anger is an attempt to avoid fault or to protect yourself. We trust these emotions to hold us together, and this is why it feels like we can't just drop them. The truth seem to be that we don't want to drop them, that we're doing them to ourselves. Because of the general truth that you can't rely on anything, though, you can finally just say enough and let go of the support - you can allow yourself to remove your attention from negativity without resolving it. You can just stop being angry without bothering to change your opinions. You can stop worrying without waiting until the issue has passed. You can stop feeling guilty even while you know you might make mistakes in the future. You can just stop trying to resolve things before letting yourself find tranquility.

So to practice jhana is to make the decision to be tranquil. Going back to the object isn't about turing the mind into a spear, it's about untying the mind from the hinderances - which are just mental states we don't want to resolve. It's hard to let go of aversion towards physical discomfort because we can't accept the idea of our body wasting away. Maybe you've noticed that you can sit still for at least 10 minutes without moving if you're distracted by something, like watching a movie? For me, it seems to be the fact that I'm not doing much which makes all the little body aches appear during meditation. The funny part is, they dissapear instantly if I get up. And after a particularly good sit the body actually feels better than it did before I sat down. So it's obviously being caused by the mind, not an actual physical condition.

The bliss and release of jhana is identical to that conceptual idea of heaven - everything feels resolved, everything is in it's proper place. It isn't this way because the world finally lines up with the ideals the mind has created, but rather because the negative tensions that supported those ideals have been abandoned. So, concentration is about going back to the object so long as other things are pushing and pulling the mind. Once the mind is steady, there is no need to concentrate or focus at all.

As a summary, I think it's better to approach concentration with a mindset rather than a method. To abandon the hinderances is to drop every bit of them. Going back to an object is just a supporting action. You aren't going to see when they're resolved. You aren't going to have the satisfaction of letting them go manually. You're simply going to forget about them and enjoy yourself more and more until everything is subjectively seen as perfect in all its messiness. When that happens, it will be obvious that it never mattered to resolve the negativity in the first place, it is just the mind trying to find stability in something unstable.

EDIT: Sorry for the long post. I can see I needed to organize my recent thoughts a bit.

re: rich r a (1/3/15 8:21 PM as a reply to J C. )
"… You say to let go of the worry of being addicted to pleasure, but the article you linked mentioned the danger of becoming a 'jhana junkie'. That is what I am afraid might happen to me. Why is that something I shouldn't worry about?"

(seconding comments later by J C, and others later)

Speaking in terms of 'classical' or 'traditional' jhana-s, e.g. Visudhimagga et al… (not about 'pure-land', Brasington-Bucknel or other various 'jhana-lite' interpretations):

At advanced stages of insight / paths, the 'enjoyment' of jhana-s, as everything else, is to be relinquished, and there are passages in the Canon warning against not taking those final steps of letting-go. People approaching those stages could lose their persistence or non-laxity (appamada, as in the Buddha's last words) and settle for some half-way attainment as 'enlightenment', e.g. just enjoying jhana-s. But at the early stages of practice, just mastering the basic skills, I believe all these dire warnings about jhana-s as a red herring.

The general warnings voiced often in this forum, and in 'secular', 'pragmatic', and especially 'Vipassana Movement' Buddhism seem to be based in something else. Often it seems a case of basic ignorance of the experience and a defensiveness around that (by teachers who haven't been trained in that area). Perhaps more often it's just hearsay-conditioning, having been inculcated with such ideas by various 'authorities'. Some (notably the modern 'Buddhist' psychological establishment) associate attempts to achieve deep concentration with psychological disruptions, s/t serious ones – but this is not a result of the jhana itself, but psyhological conditions which in fact prevent it.

(From my experience, POV) Once one has experienced full absorbtive jhana, upon exiting I would think it near impossible not to notice how much insight is greatly amplified. As mentioned throughout the Sutta-s and other traditional texts, this sort of jhana, while not the ultimate goal in itself, is perhaps the most important auxiliary resource for furthering the development of insight knowledges.

The jhanic-factors (as mentioned by Small Steps -- direction / vitakka) and holding /vicara attention, rapture / piti, peacefulness / sukha and one-pointedness '/ ekaggata), are all present also in 'access concentration', that is to say, when the 5 hindrances are (temporarily) suspended. And, until one has experienced full absorption, one might confuse access-concentration with full jhana. Access-concentration is more generally useful, can be used everyday worldly expereince as well as insight practices (as per MCTBn). On the other hand, it can be directed into full absorption in a context of worldly seclusion (no or minimal distractions and long practice sessions) and with sustained focus on a single, relatively static object of attention. Once one gets the hang of absorption, the sensory seclusion aspect can become less critical – like Sariputta (or whoever it was), who sat by a busy roadway while 500 chariats thundered by without breaking his mental seclusion / absorption.

As to the rapture (piti), which definitely can seem a kind of mental orgasm, go with it; investigate, get to know it. As long as all the factors are kept in balance, it will facilitate progress. And once jhana is known and can be worked with, soon enough this kind of rapture will become boring and easily left behind in favor of much more rewarding experiences.

As you (rich r) mentioned, if it was primarily in the chest area, that seems appropriate, as an aid in of 'liberation of the heart-mind' (ceto-vimutti as often referred to in the sutta-s). If, however, the mind plays with it, opens a crack for with the latent tendency (anusetti) to interpret anything pleasurable as sexual, then the access-concentration state will be broken (with the emergence of 'sensual pleasure' that breaks the one-pointedness), and then you're in trouble (with the possible exception of advanced stages of insight where one might entertain all kinds of mental 'trouble' for the sake of minutely deconstructing them from a very strong mental stance).

We've got the problem with the English word, that 'pleasure' can refer to both captivating physical stimulation (as in 'raga' or 'kama') as well as sublime mental ease.

G. Buddha often referred to jhana as a 'blameless' pleasure, which he 'abided' (not 'indulged') in often. It has a strong potential to refresh, strengthen, even heal body and mind, and empower greater insight practice.

"By stopping my interference with negative mental states, they go away on their own and create positive mental states instead. If I stop interference with positie mental states as well, they go away and become a perfect stillness"

How does this fit with the Dvedhavitakka sutta? I mean the Buddha does interfere a bit with stuff when he reflects the drawbacks, right?

what did you do to attain full body awareness btw?

For how long have you been doing jhana oriented practice?

Full body awareness, as well as full sensory awareness and full awareness of the mind, has been a byproduct of concentration practice for me.  Awareness seems to work like an adjustable hose nozzle - it's natually very narrow and tightly focused.  As you use concentration practice to abandon stress, it opens up and becomes very wide and spacious.

As for interfering or not - I was trying to point out in my last post that if we are trying to get rid of some mental state, we're actually paying attention to it.  We're looking at it and saying, "go away!"  Instead, what seems to work better is simply to lose track of it - to forget about it.  Put your awareness somewhere else instead.  This is the point of watching the breath, I think.  It isn't about nailing yourself to the sensation of breathing, it's about using the breath as a distraction to forget about everything that feels negative about your experience.  After some practice, you don't even need to use an object anymore, you can just let go of negativity without directing the awareness somewhere else.  When you can do this, then you can watch your moment to moment experience and drop negativity as it comes up - as suggested in the satipatthana sutta.  At this point you start to notice subtle things about experience and you can dissect the feelings from the objects they're attached to.  I imagine eventually this doesn't take any work to do, you just get used to being calm and undisturbed.  That seems to be how it's working out for me these days.

"...as suggested in the satipatthana sutta."
where in the sutta?

Is there a big difference between a sexual feeling and a piti feeling?  Or are they that close that there is only slight difference and easy to confuse?  If there is difference, what is it?   Sex has such bad connotations among many, I am wondering if the negative connotations might also influence interpretation.  Maybe there is not a big difference?  Kundalini is often described as a very physical sexual kind of thing but yet in many cultures, talk of such subjects is avoided and the concept of spiritual combined with sexual seems rather avoided..
-Eva 

I think it is the case of our commonly associating the height of pleasure with sexual release (orgasm) where the confusion arises. When I first had "gross piti"* arise like this, I started referring to it internally as "mental orgasm."



As I continued to practice, however, there was a moment during a metta session when there was strong piti present as I offered loving-kindness to parents, friends, etc. rolling into difficult people (at the time I was using the bad actors of the George W. Bush regime). It became pretty apparent what I had previously related to as "sexual" energy was not. It hasn't been a problem since.

Edited to add:
For me, there was also a little bit of grasping, initially. Who doesn't like rapture, after all? The larger issue, however, was that huge releases like this came with consequences. The positive was that rapture was almost always followed by tranquility, a feeling like being on the calmest, most placid lake ever. Maybe this was the 7 enlightenment factors being manifested? I think tranquility (passaddhi) follows rapture (pīti). The downside was that inevitably my body would react for days by twitching involuntarily, both in and out of meditation. 

* - In a talk by Leigh Brasington, he relates the story of having a piti-splosion (maybe) like this during a retreat with Pa Auk Sayadaw. He had been sitting in access concentration for about two hours before it happened. When he reported this to the Sayadaw, he was told, "That was gross piti. Do not let it happen."

The progression of the jhanas sounds like a climax and then a decline, but it's actually a steady upward trend in wellbeing.  Piti is a release, like relief, and could be associated with sexual climax because it works the same way.  The pleasure of an orgasm is the relief it offers from the desire that builds up beforehand.  The flood of piti that happens with jhana is simply a release - so the more tension that is built up (as in, very tight suppressive concentration) will result in a bigger release.  This is why the biggest "enlightenment events" seem to happen to people in the throes of deep depression.

What happens next is that, having attained what was wanted (release) the mind begins to settle down.  At first it reads this settling as a warm comfortable feeling, like easing into a chair by the fireplace after a day of cross country skiing.  The body has been wracked by the emotional tensions of everyday life, and then the rapture of piti, and the physical relaxation that comes from emotional balance is a kind of complete satisfaction.  Eventually, the mind cools down completely and you're left with pure equanimity - nothing is important yet everything is interesting.  Fourth jhana is feeling like you've gotten everything you could concieve of wanting.  Maybe that's how it is from the very beginning of jhana, and the piti is just the celebration before the resting.   Gross piti is fine, no need to stop it or tame it - it will relax itself and the relaxation is subjectively better.  You won't be addicted to piti after you feel sukha, and you won't be addicted to sukha after you feel equanimity, and equanimity is the whole point of meditation.  So it's all self-correcting.

So it's actually very sexual in how it works, even though it encompases all desire and not just sexual desire.  If sexual desire was prominant on the mind, then the general lowering of inhibitions would probably give the whole thing a focus in that direction.

Desire for jhana is actually a desire to be without desire - you could say it's a kind of final desire.  So getting addicted to jhana is equivalent to becoming a buddhist and developing dispassion for all things.

RE: Sexual pleasure feeling? Is this jhana?
re: Not Tao (1/6/15 8:19 PM as a reply to Small Steps. )

I. Not Tao presents, IMO, a very good rendition of various aspects of jhana-s – aptlysummerized with "So it's all self-correcting."

"Fourth jhana is feeling like you've gotten everything you could concieve of wanting. "
I would, however, quibble with this slightly, as it could apply more aptly to the sukha of the 3rd jhana; as in the sutta passage(s) comparing piti as like when a parched person in the desert sees an oasis ahead and imagines the relief of being there, vs. sukha as when the person is basking in the pool of water in the oasis. Piti as excitement, sukha as contentment. 4th jhana's equanimity, relative to this metaphor, might be more beyond wanting or having.

"Desire for jhana is actually a desire to be without desire…"
As Than-Geof notes, there's the chanda as the useful desire to get further along the Path, vs the sort that leans more to tanha (craving). and works against the Path.

From the BPS Dictionary on chanda:
"As a good quality it is a righteous will or zeal (dhamma-chanda) and occurs, e.g. in the formula of the 4 right efforts (s. padhāna): … If intensified, it is one of the 4 roads to power (s. iddhipāda)."
vs
"As an evil quality it has the meaning of 'desire', and is frequently coupled with terms for 'sensuality', 'greed', etc., for instance: kāma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (s. nīvarana);chanda-rāga, 'lustful desire' (s. kāma). It is one of the 4 wrong paths (s. agati)."

II. A couple of thoughts apropos the sexual aspect:

1) Way back in the 1960's, I once ran an experiment and masturbated while on an LSD trip, expecting it to be really super. It turned out to be absolutely empty! At the core of it, a vivid abyss of nothingness. Granted this lacked all the warmth and sweetness (sankara including many dimensions beyond the purely physical) of sexual experience with a loved one, which usually results in a fulfilling glow and contentment. Absent that, I conceptualize the LSD episode as sort of "being used" by the animal aspect of the experience, by evolution, so to speak (from the male viewpoint, just to deliver the goods, and, to cite a possible analog, then be devoured by the female black-widow). The piti itself there, is just a momentary fizzle. Perhaps as when Elizabethan poetry refers to sexual rapture metaphorically as death.

2) On the other hand, Chinese Taoist sexual cultivation practices (firmly documented as going back more than 2300 years) include a technique whereby the male "withholds" ejaculation, and then can sustain the rapture of orgasm much longer – perhaps more like the female orgasm. This, I suspect, is more in the ballpark of 'spiritual' piti. And, not unlike spiritual techniques like jhana, this sexual technique is not easy –takes cultivation and discipline.

Btw, the Taoist know-how with sexuality has to do with more with spirituality, even ethics (i.e. the Confucian aspect), than with hedonism. Note-worthy is that many of the traditional techniques focus on achieving the optimally healthy conception of a child. After all, the Chinese must know something in that area -- since millennia, they've been the most populous people on the planet.

What you are saying sounds really logical, but it still bother's me that nowhere in the suttas I can find the traditional simple instructions: "concentrate really hard on something and you'll enter jhana". The instructions I've seen is (unrelated to each other I think):
•reflect on the disadvantages of unskillfull thoughts (dvedhavitakka, samanaphala suttas I think)
or
•do the five steps of vitakkasanthana (which includes the above)
or
•make it your object(-ive?) to let go
or
•think the eight thoughts of a great person (see anuruddha sutta)
or
•do anapanasati (which, if sabba kaya actually means entire body is more than just focusing on the breath)

Then there are examples where monks meditating on one brahma vihara or satipatthana at a time enters jhana but it isn't said how. 

Maybe all or some of these instructions go together, I don't know. According to Thanissaro, anapana and vitakkasanthana go together at least. 
But I'd love to see a place in the suttas saying that all you have to do to enter jhana is concentrate really hard on something. That'd at least feel a lot easier, and I'm getting pretty good at concentrating.

one more thing: Why isn't upacara samadhi ever mentioned in the suttas? Another one of the important theravadin inventions not thaught by the Buddha perhaps?

Pal, concentrating and letting go are the same thing.  Jhana happens when the mind feels no reason to move - you've balanced the "energy level" by being neither slothfully dazed nor restlessly seeking satisfaction, and you've balanced both the push and pull of the mind by turning away from the feeling of wanting and the feeling of not-wanting.  It's very specific, yet difficult to pin down.  You can say, "concentrate really hard," but that could be misinterpreted to generate aversion for the mind that keeps moving to other objects.  The movement will take the mind away from jhana, yes, but generating aversion is going even further away, so in that kind of instance you have to let go and allow the mind some slack - it usually wanders back to the center since that's the path of least resistance.  However, if you give the instruction, "let go of everything," it's very easy to sit there like a lump and do nothing useful for yourself because the mind needs a leash to stay still, it doesn't do it on its own naturally (though it will after some good practice!).

Getting to jhana is a specific kind of effort, but that effort is to become balanced and free from distractions.  Distractions come from the whole gamut of human experience, so there is no one instruction that will get you there.  It's better to aim yourself at an understanding of what jhana is - an awareness that stays still while also remaining alert.  Focusing on an object is a crutch to give your mind something to steady itself on.  The object is also there as a comparison to know when you've been distracted.  Once the jhanas begin, this crutch can become another hinderance, so the ultimate object is letting go, itself.

Try to look at what the buddha is talking about as a whole rather than specific exact instructions.  You can't really tell someone exactly how to paint a picture, but you can give them a lot of different practices and exercises that will help them figure it out.  The hinderances, the anapana instructions, the various suttas describing the jhanas, they're there to help you understand.  Remember, jhana is a part of YOUR mind that YOU have to figure out.  The buddha didn't invent it, he discovered it.  It's a part of human nature, so you can trust yourself to know what to do intuitively as things progress and you see real results.

The simplest instruction is at the heart of the buddha's teachings.  Stress is caused by desire - when there is no desire, there is no stress.  You have the power to turn your mind away from desire.  If you do that, you will see the cessation of sufering.

Maybe the sexual feeling kind is 'gross piti?'  For me it didn't seem much different than just a sexual feeling at first, except of course there was no other person involved.  I don't know how to separate 'mental orgasm' from something that seems to happen in the body as well.  A sensation in body is a sensation in mind as far as I can tell anyway.  Sensation in body and sensation in mind, can there be a separation?  I am thinking not truly possible.  Anyway, it started out feeling really similar to sexual for me, and yes, much more clinging then, and over time it has morphed to seem both slowly higher in my body closer to heart as well as more of kindness type of tone to it.  Not sure if that kind of progression happens for others.  Seems less sexual now but in the beginning it was totally sexual and physical, which very much surprised me back then.  I guess I had a preconceived assumption that such things were mostly mental airy fairy kind of things, not felt so much in the body like that.  Seems also that the emphasis of mind over body is strong in the meditation field.
-Eva

Let me start by saying that what I am calling piti here - not everyone may feel this is what the suttas are referring to. I’ll use the word piti here - but if anyone feels differently - keep in mind that we are talking about something that can be directly experienced - regardless of the label applied.

Is there a big difference between a sexual feeling and a piti feeling?  Or are they that close that there is only slight difference and easy to confuse?  If there is difference, what is it?   

My current understanding is that there are these sensations of energy or piti in the body. They range from very intense to extremely subtle - sometimes stronger in one part of the body or another - sometimes moving along channels and such - but they all seem to be the same thing manifesting in different ways.
 
An analogy is those black and white newspaper photos that are composed of lots of little dots. Look at any of them closely and you see lots of dots of various sizes but stand back and you see different images. Piti is like the little dots and sexual feelings, pain, anger, happiness is something like the images. So the piti has a kind of intensity (which is like the size of the dot) and also a pattern in the body (similar to the pattern of dots in the image). As far as I can tell, it is these patterns that tell us what emotion we are feeling while it is the intensity that informs us of how strongly we feel that emotion. Once our brain clues in on the pattern and recognizes ‘sexual’ it triggers perceptions and thoughts - basically kicks the mind into ‘sex’ mode or anger mode or whatever - though this is probably more of a positive feedback mechanism - that is, there could be some subtle or not so subtle stimulus that the eye catches for example - that sets off the energy pattern which then feeds back and triggers thoughts - there is this interaction between mind and body/energy happening all the time.

So to answer your question, the ‘sexual’ is an overlay - if the piti is felt in your hand you are unlikely to interpret it as sexual - if it happens closer to the sexual center then it would be easy to go that direction - to see it that way - that happens very quickly and then it basically is sexual regardless of what it was before.

Sex has such bad connotations among many, I am wondering if the negative connotations might also influence interpretation.  Maybe there is not a big difference?  Kundalini is often described as a very physical sexual kind of thing but yet in many cultures, talk of such subjects is avoided and the concept of spiritual combined with sexual seems rather avoided..

Yes, that’s a good point. I think the reason kundalini is often described as sexual like - is that yes, it is. Sexual energy is  something that people can relate to - and it’s  the closest thing one can point to as something similar. But it is distinctly different in my experience.  The difference is that when our mind gets involved - adding in perceptions and such - then it becomes sexual - and once we put that label on it it really takes off and gains much more power over us - the dots get really big and our mind gets bound-up with figuring out how it is going to satisfy this desire. Piti doesn’t have the effect of wanting to make you act on it - like sexual energy or anger for example. That’s another important difference. It’s quite harmless in that respect.

It is difficult to separate these things out - the mind/body interactions. Probably easiest to see it with pain - that is where I first became aware of this during a goenka retreat about 15 years ago. It was only a couple of years ago that I experienced the separating out of sexual energy into its components.

I've never actually made much of a sexual connection, personally. To me it feels similar to to resting after an intense physical workout - except to an nth degree, of course. My first experience of piti was very strong, though (like every cell in the body), and it erupted during a very low emotional state, so it could just be that sex was very far from my mind.

Chuck, your ideas here are interesting. For a while I was playing with the idea that positive and negative emotions were essentially the same, just read as positive or negtive based on the situation.

Well, I have not been able to have a repeat experience. I have gotten some small feeling of pleasure at my chest area, but never had a repeat of that intensity.

In fact, the pleasurable feeling occasionally turns into pain. And sometimes after a meditation session, the pain would be lingering for a while.

I don't know if this is because I'm involuntarily tightening my chest muscles, or what. I'm certainly not doing anything on a conscious level. I'm just focusing on my breath to the best of my ability, and these are the sensations that I am being dealt. 

I suppose there's not really much to do or say except to remain as equinamous as possible, and ride out the sensations, regardless if it's pain or pleasure? The pain honestly worries me a bit, if not just for the fact that if it does turn out that I'm tightening my muscles involuntarily, that will lead to a more lasting pain throughout my day. But... I will do my best.

I guess this must mean that the correct/best interpretation of sabba kaya/entire physichal/breath body/all bodies must be the one that generates most concentration/letting go Which one would you consider the most effective interpretation for developing stillness of mind? In my experience the "entire physical body"  interpretation ofd sabba kaya takes an uncomfortable amount of effort that comes together with aversion for "single spot concentration". What feels best is a general awareness of breath sensations at no specific spot. 

Yeah, perhaps the sexual feeling is what is being referred to as 'gross pīti.' I'll agree also that the first time it happened to me, it didn't seem much different that an orgasm, though each time this has happened, there hasn't been ejaculation. There has been much raggedness of breath, great feelings of euphoria, very energetic "vibrations," etc. which definitely hew to how the body might react during sex.

I'm recalling later experiences in labeling it 'mental orgasm,' as the feeling becomes less visibly physical, in that the energetics (pulsations, vibrations, etc.) are felt to be much more contained within and throughout the body. I am also familiar with moving the energy up to the area of the heart. In many cases, manifestations often begin with a distinct pulsating feeling in my sacral(?)* region, with commensurate build up, which can then be moved up to area of the chest near the heart.

I also had a recent experience during a week-long retreat during formal metta practice. I was dealing with a lot of aversion during that period (what timing!) and the instructions to offer forgiveness triggered a vibrating/tingling sensation in the back/left region of the body, which quickly moved to the area of the heart. After holding it there for a spell, the anger seemed to melt away. This was the first and only time this sensation has occurred.

* Since I'm not eager to muddy things up with talk of chakras as I have no real education in this area, I'll just stir things up mildly with the following: Perhaps, this sacral area is the second chakra? Perhaps the area around the heart is the fourth? Apologies in advance

It seems wrong to me that so many of you describe what you call piti as something sensual. Just makes me think about the mahasaccaka sutta where the Buddha says that the pleasure of jhana has nothing to do with sensuality. Then he saiys it's still something that appears in the body which is kind of confusing. How can something non-sensual be experienced in the body? 

re: Not Tao (1/7/15 5:18 PM as a reply to Pål. )
"… The buddha didn't invent it [jhana], …"
As per an 'early' Sutta (and material in some later ones), he learned up thru 7th and 8th 'formless' states (commonly aka jhana-s) from a couple of prominent teachers he sought out in his quest. Alexander Wynne's fascinating book – The Origin of Buddhist Meditation –argues very carefully and cogently that the sutta descriptions of GB's relationship to those teachers, and hence the Vedic system of ascetic / renunciate practices, are so peculiar (e.g. of no value to this or that sectarian revision of sutta material) that they can be taken as actual historical accounts.

"…he discovered it… "
Yes, in the sense (1) he is said to have come across some form of jhana absorption as a child, and (2) he found a way in incorporating the practice into a more fully developed path of realization, relative to the Vedic / Brahamic precedents which formed the context and background in which be began his quest.

re: Eva M Nie (1/7/15 7:49 PM as a reply to Small Steps. )

"Seems less sexual now but in the beginning it was totally sexual and physical, which very much surprised me back then.  I guess I had a preconceived assumption that such things were mostly mental airy fairy kind of things, not felt so much in the body like that."

It could be that the ecstacy of sexuality (especially orgasm) is something available, known to most everyone, whereas other piti-type experiences are not as relatively universal. So on first encounter, there's likely that natural association.There are also so-called 'mystical experiences', and comparable raptures obtainable in endeavors like music, that are unquestionably (IMO) kinds of piti, but these aren't as common .

"Seems also that the emphasis of mind over body is strong in the meditation field."

Probably so, as we (Westerners) are culturally (by conditioning, education, religions, etc.) strongly in the grip of the "mind-body problem" that plays on a strong distinction, even conflict. On the other hand, neuroscientists like Antonio Damasio (e.g. in 'Self Comes to Mind') demonstrate that 'mind' is an integral function of the organism's self-regulation (nervous) systems; that the two cannot be rigidly (neither ontologically nor epistemologically) separated when examined very closely (especially phenomenologically). I would hypothesize that really good, advanced meditation techniques (like MCT form examples of such close examination, get beyond such distorting emphasis.

P.S. some of this, I think, dovetails with Chuck Kasmire's more detailed and graphic explanations (1/7/15 8:58 PM).

re: Pål (1/8/15 4:28 AM as a reply to Not Tao. )

"… interpretation of sabba kaya/entire physichal/breath body/all bodies…"

Refering to my last post here also, this may be an area where the Western 'mind-body' problem introduces the problems, so to speak.

Consider that 'bodily' experience is always just as it's experienced, i.e. as phenomena. If one's in solid access concentration, the 'body' may be present in awareness as only the subtle sensations at the nostrils. If one consciously (conceptually, by intention) extends awareness systematically to ther bodily sensations, as in body-scanning techniques, then that's the experience. If one's awareness is just drawn to a pain in the knee, or cold hands, or a pressure behind the eyes, that's also what's appearing, and may seem really big, like it's the whole body in that moment -- the whole of bodily sensation.

Remember, our concept of the 'physical body' is deeply rooted in a scientific viewpoint, where it is something viewable only from the outside, only as objectively measurable. I believe we're conditioned to internalize this viewpoint and 'imagine' (sankhara) experiencing the whole 'physical body'. But really? Do we experience the spleen secreting digestive enzymes or insulin, the cruciate ligaments in the knee, the mechanisms in the cerebellum, the activity of the mitochondria in each of the 30 trillion cells, etc.? The 'physical body' is, in fact, nothing more than a cultural-bound concept.

The problem here is something lost in translation. The buddha never used the words "sensual pleasure," those are just english words used to approximate kamacchanda. It's better to look at the suttas where he describes the concepts. He didn't say "jhana has nothing to do with sensuality" - he used some pali words which had their own meanings. From all the suttas I've read on jhana, it's clear that piti is a physical sensation because he says the monks should fill their whole body with it. When translators start to talk about "breath bodies" or ther things like that, it just seems to me like they're trying too hard to make the budda say what they want, haha.

My reading of what the buddha is saying is that "sensual desire" is the specific kind of pleasure we get from our senses on an everyday basis - like eating sweets or getting a massage - and the pleasure of jhana comes from a different place than this. IME, piti happens in spite of everyday aches and pains, or even headaches, and it comes when I stop trying to fix those aches and pains. Piti is felt like a physical sensation, but it doesn't happen the same way other physical sensations do. It seems to happen by "relaxing bodily fabrication" as he says in the anapanasati sutta. To relax bodily fabrication, you stop trying to make your body feel better and rest your intentions. Fabrication generally means intent in the suttas - or willpower. You stop imagining better physical realities, stop trying to feel better, and accept the body as it is. This acceptance, itself, turns into piti and it shows us that what we are always looking for is actually the end of our desires for our physical body rather than one specific feeling state our body goes through. This is why jhana is the "lesser liberation," and one who attains jhana is freed from reliance on sensuality.

Yes, this is widely misunderstood. Here is an example of what he means by the term sensuality (this is from MN 13):

If the clansman gains wealth while thus working & striving & making effort, he experiences pain & distress in protecting it: 'How will neither kings nor thieves make off with my property, nor fire burn it, nor water sweep it away, nor hateful heirs make off with it?' And as he thus guards and watches over his property, kings or thieves make off with it, or fire burns it, or water sweeps it away, or hateful heirs make off with it. And he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught: 'What was mine is no more!' Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality,..

..it is with ..sensuality for the cause,.., that kings quarrel with kings,.., householders with householders, mother with child, child with mother, father with child, child with father, brother with brother, sister with sister, brother with sister, sister with brother, friend with friend. And then in their quarrels, brawls, & disputes, they attack one another with fists or with clods or with sticks or with knives, so that they incur death or deadly pain. Now this drawback too in the case of sensuality, this mass of stress visible here & now, has sensuality for its reason,..., the reason being simply sensuality.

Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, .. (men) break into windows, seize plunder, commit burglary, ambush highways, commit adultery, and when they are captured, kings have them tortured in many ways. They flog them with whips, beat them with canes, beat them with clubs. They cut off their hands,...etc.

Again, it is with sensuality for the reason, ... that (people) engage in bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, mental misconduct. Having engaged in bodily, verbal, and mental misconduct,

Sensual desire is the kind of desire that seeks to satisfy itself in the world of things - food, wealth, fame, sex, etc. The pleasure found in the body in jhana is considered harmless and is part of the path.

As I see it, sila (virtue/morality) is the practice of restraint - of not acting on sensual desire when it arises in the mind while sati (mindfulness) is the quality of mind when it is no longer attending to such desires - that is, withdrawn or secluded from sensual desire - from thinking and pondering about it.

I remember once I had this weird dream where i was experiencing some kind of really strong intensity, and then it shifted a bit and there was another similar very strong intensity.  Then after a while, I realized that one of the intensities was pain and the other was pleasure.  In that state, my consciousness thought of them somewhat similarly, as a very strong intensity both, but not exactly the same totally.  The interesting part was that the concept of one of them them being any better or worse than the other was not there. 
-Eva 

 So this definition is that piti is sensations of energy?  I thought it was usually translated as 'rapture' or somesuch, but sensations of energy to unpleasant seeming forms as well.  I do agree that there seems to be energy that takes different patterns or channels in the body, for whatever reasons and circumstances details of which are not easy to nail down for me, and that seems to result in perception of various emotions.  Something like that is what it seems like, but I'm not ready to get too attached to any one belief system in that area yet since I can't see it clearly. 

Ok now that you mention it, yes, i've also noticed that connection.  LIke there is an energy and when it is very more in the direction of sexual and love oriented feeling and is strong in that theme, then even things that would be considered 'bady' happening to me do not seem all that bad.  Like once my dog got lost and it was strange in that the overlay of this love/sex thing just made it so I didn't feel the concern for the dog in the same way as I would normally.  Not that I didn't feel concern, just that the concern just did not hurt that much as normal, kinda hard to describe.  (anyway, did find the dog the next day so all was well).  Anyway, so when the love/sex thing is strong, bad feelings just can't seem to yield much badness.  But there are also times when the love/sex feeling seems to shift slightly into a bit of a toomuch/itchy irritating feeling that is still a good feeling but not as pure as the other one and sometimes I can feel kind of headachy at those times.  There have also been times when I felt a lot of unpleasant anxiety and then when I worked hard to kind of reroute/rethink that kind of energy, sometimes I can feel it shift and then it can shift all the way over to the love/sex feeling at times, even rather suddenly like within seconds if I do it right.  So gives credence to the idea of there being energy and then how the energy is shifted around perhaps determines emotion perceived.  I don't know much about the whole kundalini meridians thing, but for me, there is a kind of feeling associated with various states and if I remember hard on a previous feeling, I can sometimes or often manage to shift the energies to that configuration and feel it again and I can kind of feel the shift and a bit of how it changes and how it is the same energy but layed out differently.  SOrry if that sounds totally goofy!  ;-P
-Eva

Guess it depends on your definitions.  But when you have sex, there is a kind of feeling inside that is like a very good pleaure feeling deep inside, that 's what this thing feels like to me, not exactly but very similar.  But it does not involve any direct perception of touch on the outer skin or any specific body response (I am female so ejaculation is not relevant either), it's that inside rising up good feeling that you feel in the middle of your body.  Sometimes i wonder if this is what some of the very strong street drugs give, a kind of relaxing euphoria and it's easy to get clingy about having it, but if you get too clingy then it recedes.  And there are months when I had a ton of it, and then other months when I had none.  Been a while since I've had it now so not sure if that stage is passed or it will reemerge later.  But of all the experiences I've had on this weird road, that is probably the singular one that made me think the most that there must really be something to this whole path/enlightenment thing because it was just so amazing.   

So then what are the other 'piti-type' experiences like?
-Eva

For myself, it sometimes takes the form of an energetic thrill that courses through the body, leading to goose flesh (see references to piloerection below). Other times, it is a very intense feeling of joy. Most recently, this came on so strongly, I had to put down the book I was reading and close my eyes for a few moments. I've also had one or two moments of feeling incredible lightness and airiness, like I was floating. These usually come when during formal sitting, and don't last very long. I would definitely not classify any of these with the label, "sexual."

Some additional info. From the wikipedia article on Pīti:


Some further details from Sayadaw U Pandita, from his very excellent book, In This Very Life (available here free, online). In this book, he talks chiefly about vipassana practice, so this description is from the chapter on the seven factors of enlightenment and refers to pīti in this regard:

Makes sense. So you're suggesting that experiencing sabba kaya means experiencing all that we're experiencing? Why would the Buddha give such an instruction? Seems pointless. 

After having reminded myself of the Culavedalla sutta I think it's even easier than how you put it here. Kaya sankhara just means the breath. We should calm our breath.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

According to many thai schooled monks, the physical body isn't experienced at all during jhana. Ajahn Brahm writes that the body that should be filled with the jhana factors is the mental body, which seems a little weird to me since those instructions are found in the kayagatasati sutta, which covers many practices that very clearly are about contemplating the physical body in different ways.
Oh god, there are so many different views on what the Buddha meant with jhana, it really disturbs me...

"... this whole path..."
I'm not very sure if it's really one whole path anymore. What kind of meditation do you practice/did you practice to get that kind of piti?

Cool. Does this stuff have any support in the suttas at all? Actually in the kayagatasati suttas and many more, it is said that we should make piti fill our bodies while in jhana. Doesnt this show that piti that doesn't fill all of our body can still be considered a jhana factor according to the Buddha, although the jhana isn't completely established before piti is like the fifth kind, filling all of the body?

That was during regular life, just walking around at work etc.  Started on the last day of a camping tri.  That morning I was dreaming and then I woke suddenly as if something had happened in the dream, like something had clicked, but couldn't remember the details, but I felt strange in a good way.  Long drive home was pleasant although I usually don't care for long boring drives.  Became very intense for 2 weeks.  All I wanted to do was just relax and enjoy the feeling.  Didn't sleep a lot and didn't eat much because food seemed unimportant and uninteresting in comparison and although I often felt hunger pangs but they felt far away and they were barely able ot intrude on the good feeling.  I just ate enough such that IMO it would be sufficient for life.  I have never done street drugs but it was as if I was constantly high on some kind of super good drug for 2 weeks, it felt like a combo of sex and drugs but without the sex or drugs actually being there.  I acted a bit strange then too, would wander off and do whatever I thought of without telling anyone like a little kid , like if at dinner I might just get up and go to the bathroom without saying 'excuse me, going to the bathroom' like normal social etiquette would suggest. Others at the table might wonder why I just suddenly got up and left, so I think those around me thought I was acting slightly odd.  I was also constantly very contented and feeling good, nothing bothered me and there was no such thing as boredom, everything felt good all the time.  Towards the end of 2 weeks, the feeling was still very good but was slightly different, as if I was getting a bit tired or worn out or something, I could feel that at the edge of the good feeling. 

Then I had this big analysis project I'd been putting off for 2 weeks (because of lack of interest) that had to be done that involved intense intellectual thought.  I had a feeling if I worked on it and put my mind in that state, it might do in the 'high' feeling, but it was time to do it so I did it and then sure enough, the high feel mostly left.  Came back later on and off but not quite so strong.  There would be weeks where I had it for most of the time and life's little pains and sufferings could not really dent it.  It kind of came and went on it's own.   Over time, it seemed to become more heart or love oriented and felt a bit more of a diffuse feeling, kinda spread out more in the body (hard to describe).  Seems like the experience fits kundalini type descriptions, but that is just a term, it really doesn't let me understand it that much better.  If it's kundalini, what is kundalini?  If it's piti, what is piti?  If it's A&P state, that is another potential term.  Different labels for the same thing?  I have also felt other weird body sensations that seem also to fit descriptions of 'piti,' definition of which seem rather vague.  But those other ones were short in duration, they didn't change my whole mood and experience of life for weeks at a time, like that sex/drugs feeling one did.   I guess it could also be called as an intense form of 'euphoria' but I don't think that term does it full justice.   

Sounds like A&P rather than traditional jhana factor piti. But what do I know. According to Daniel, the A&P is the same thing as kundalini awakening.  Did you do any meditation method in particular leasing up to those weeks?

Seems like kind of believed by many kundalini awakening only happens once but A&P can happen multiple times correct?  Of course, some do say that kundalini can happen gradually as you get stuck for a while at certain stages, first awakening, then get through heart chakra, then get through 3rd eye chakra, then it's home run.  I wonder if there is correlation with the path levels.  And some seem to think awakening is all or nothing as well. 
[quote=
Pål]Sounds like A&P rather than traditional jhana factor piti. But what do I know. According to Daniel, the A&P is the same thing as kundalini awakening.  Did you do any meditation method in particular leasing up to those weeks?

I don't know that much about Kundalini but I think I've read somewhere it can awaken and the fall asleep again if it isn't allowed to go all the way through the body. So that might be the reason of why there can be several awakenings/A&P:s.

re: Eva M Nie (1/10/15 1:58 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )

CJM: " It could be that the ecstasy of sexuality (especially orgasm) is something available, known to most everyone, whereas other piti-type experiences are not as relatively universal."

Eva: "So then what are the other 'piti-type' experiences like?"

1) Given my paticular background, I can point to examples in music which evoke piti-like experience for me:

a) Ligeti: Atmospheres (also used in the movie '2001 A Space Odessey')
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWlwCRlVh7M
Few would be familiar with this kind of music -- maybe the better to get the piti-point of it.

b) The last couple of minutes of Wagner's opera 'Tristan und Isolde', the concluding "Liebestod" Aria
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu02skyFCyI
Especially from about 3 min 30 secs; Note, at the very end the resolution into suhka (from about 4min 50sec).
Also overall (singer, conductor, musicians), excellent example of khanika-samadhi (momentary concentration).

c) Also the very end of Wagner's opera 'Goetterdaemmerung'
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ww4JHkloa8
from about 4 hours 2 min to the end (one can skip the first 4 hours); also with a resolution into sukha at about 4 hours 7 min, one minute before the end.

An extensive background in music perhaps also conditioned and facilitated my propensity for jhana-type concentration practice.

2) Perhaps the 'nike' experience could qualify as piti, and be more generally appreciated than the musical examples. 'Nike' is the Greek goddess of victory, as in the famous statues of a female figure with wings. This experience is what Pindar (classical Greek poet) glorifies in his Odes, which were commissioned, written for victory celebrations after the (original) Greek Olympics. The aspect that's commonly available today is, for instance, the emotion of the crowd at the German goal that won the World Cup a couple of months ago (soccer aka international football), or at the team pile-on right after the last play of a World Series victory, or at the end of a SuperBowl – to mention extreme examples.

3) Perhaps also the experience of a 'first kiss', in the sense I've known it as delightfully rapturous, and not necessarily sexual (genital) in nature.

Surely anyone here could list comparable examples from their experience.

re: Small Steps (1/10/15 1:04 PM as a reply to Eva M Nie. )

Thanks, Small Steps, for the Canonic (Visudhimagga) exposition. The term Small Steps mentions inclosing – paamojja, also as paamujja: this is the Pali for the term 'gladness' that occurs in some sutta descriptions of preparation for meditation, or Jhana: one finds a secluded place (charnal ground, abandoned hut, roots of tree,…), sits crosslegged, back straight, awareness in front, then develops gladness, then rapture, tranquility,… enters the 1st jhana,…

BTW, Small Steps, apropos an exchange back in October 2014 about Ven. U Jagara -- I just learned that U. Jagara is also leading a month-long retreat at IMS Forest Refuge in Massachussetts in March (and still the 10-day in Ben Lomond end June-July). Also, Sayadaw U. Pandita (the older Pandita, protege/successor of Sayadaw Mahasi) is scheduled to lead a 30-day retreat at Tathagata Meditation Center (San Jose) in June.

As far away as most people live from themselves, it takes a peak experience like an orgasm to "register," while small "thrills" and moments of delight, elation, verve, etc. go unnoticed. Sensitivity to life is something to be cultivated.



I love the examples you offered, Chris. Music has also been a big part of my life (especially younger days going to a lot of concerts). There were many moments of small, often sublime, thrills that I might well characterize as piti now. Also, you drew a very apt connection to the sports motif. Probably a much more relatable scenario for the average non-practitioner.



Thanks for the info! I had seen some reference to this on the Tathagata site late last year, perhaps. I keep hearing stories about how tough Sayadaw U Pandita's retreats are, and am a little wary. Then I've also read several accounts of his gentleness and ability to relate on a very familial level, so I guess he can put on many different robes, as required. I think Sayadaw U Thuzana is also going to be offering a month-long retreat this year, and he was the abbot of MBMC while Daniel and others practiced there in the 2000's. Along with the retreat with Ven. U. Jagara and a few I'm also interested in at Spirit Rock, this might be a very busy Summer for me

Our culture has no notion of this phenomena - it seems quite foreign - yet this phenomena is found in cultures around the world - chi, prana being other terms. I use energy because it feels like that.

Than. Geof describes it this way:
What we’re working on here is something that’s called piti in Pali. You can translate it as rapture; you can translate it as fullness; you can translate it as refreshment. The basic meaning is that it feels really good, really nourishing. The Buddha lists it as one of the energizing factors of awakening. It’s also a kind of food. There’s that passage where he says that, when we meditate, we feed on rapture like the radiant gods. The problem with the word rapture is that sometimes it seems too intense for the way some people experience it. Some people feel it as a tingling through the body, their hair standing on end. For others, it’s gentler —a sense of balanced, full wellbeing. Some people feel it in waves coming over the body. And for some people it’s so intense that the body starts moving.

Michael Olds (buddhadust.com) defines it this way: Piti, whatever it is, has a carnal side, and that must be accounted for in the translated term. I believe the best term is probably "excitement". I usually use "enthusiasm" to avoid having to explain that this is a good kind of excitement, not a distracted sort.

Shinzen Young refers to it as vibratory flow:
The vibratory flavor of flow is like champagne bubbles or sparks of electricity. If you have ever
experienced runners high or the muscular pump that weight lifters speak of you have contacted this flavor of flow. A similar feeling is the invigorating sensation you get after taking a cold shower, or the refreshed feeling you have after making love, the afterglow. If you have the
microscopic awareness to observe any of these experiences at a very fine scale, you will see your
whole body is full of something like scintillating mist or effervescent champagne bubbles.
...
Each one of [these experiences] represents an intense experience of physical sensation in the body. In the relaxed period that follows, if you observe microscopically, you will discover a fine vibratory phenomenon. This vibration is in fact the deep nature of all body experience, but it is easier to detect at such times because of the intense involvement with the body that preceded.

I have been working with this phenomena for 20 years now and I think in my descriptions I tend to forget how it started out for me so here are some thoughts on that:

The first impressions were something like warmth or movement in the body along with a relaxed, pleasant feeling - hard to describe but an uplifted sense of well being/happiness - but happiness seems too strong a word - something more elusive. I was practicing about 1.5 hours per day during this time. It would come and go - there were periods of time - up to a few months - where it just seemed to be gone.

I recently came upon a guided body sweeping practice from Ajahn Brahm - this is very similar to some of the early exercises we used - its a very effective technique. It can be used when going to bed, sitting, and makes a great Lazeboy/recliner practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf60XcnpgF8

To all: 

Frisson might be interesting to look into:

Frisson (French for 'shiver') is a sensation somewhat like shivering, usually caused by stimuli. It is typically expressed as an overwhelming emotional response combined withpiloerection (goosebumps). Stimuli that produce a response are specific to the individual.Frisson is of short duration, usually no more than 4–5 seconds, usually pleasurable.[1] Typical stimuli include loud passages of music and passages that violate some level of musical expectation.[2]It has been shown that during frisson, the skin of the lower back flexes, and shivers rise upward and inward from the shoulders, up the neck, and may extend to the cheeks and scalp. The face may become flush, hair follicles experience piloerection. This frequently occurs in a series of 'waves' moving up the back in rapid succession. The frissoner usually feels the experience as involuntary.It's been shown that some experiencing musical frisson report reduced excitement when under administration of naloxone (an opiate receptor antagonist), suggesting musical frisson gives rise to endogenous opioid peptides similar to other pleasurable experiences.[3] Frisson may be enhanced by the amplitude of the music and the temperature of the environment. Cool listening rooms and movie theaters may enhance the experience.[2]Frissoners also like to share the experience. Online communities of frissoners sharing musical passages have sprung up to provide support and new triggers.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisson


And, I might add, this energy or sensation release can be also consciously called up at will, though I can't do it all the time.  Discussing the supernatural, ghosts and such, will also bring up the energy sensation at times, sometimes the eyes will water...


Personally, I think all of this stuff, piti, frisson, etc. may also be related to Kundalini Phenomenon.  

Psi

re: Small Steps (1/13/15 11:56 AM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )

"I think Sayadaw U Thuzana is also going to be offering a month-long retreat this year, and he was the abbot of MBMC while Daniel and others practiced there in the 2000's."

Thuzana appears to be the regular guy currently holding down the fort as the 'Sangha' at TMC (Tathatgata Meditation Center, San Jose). He's led the 4 or 5 weekend retreats I've attended (most recently last weekend). After getting used to his English pronunciation, I've found his talks instructive, leading to good questions and/or insights. He's got that talent I've noticed in some Asian monastics of being able to give a talk that addresses the both the level, the interests of the lay yogis as well as levels of very deep, challenging aspects of dhamma and practice, and the two levels are subtly intertwined. I've approached him a couple of times for brief, specific questions about things that came up in the talks, finding him always open, comprehending and answering aptly, and virtually radiating metta.

re: Psi(1/13/15 5:53 PM as a reply to Chris J Macie. )

"Frisson might be interesting to look into:"

Indeed. Thanks for the reference. which also gives some good leads on the scientific side.

"And, I might add, this energy or sensation release can be also consciously called up at will, though I can't do it all the time.  Discussing the supernatural, ghosts and such, will also bring up the energy sensation at times, sometimes the eyes will water..."

Ditto in my experience, e.g. just bringing to mind a certain piece of music, simply as a holistic phenomenon (not having to run through it temporally); or even recall of a jhana session. A couple of teachers have mentioned that one can very quickly enter access and absorption states by simply recalling (sati in the memory sense?) a previous one; it's like starting back up where one left off last time. (But, in practice, not always, e.g. when the mind's gotton bogged down in samsara issues.)

"Personally, I think all of this stuff, piti, frisson, etc. may also be related to Kundalini Phenomenon.  "

Very likely. For instance, Taoist 'qi-gong' exercises such as the 'male deer execise' (from Dr. Stephen Chang's books) and the 'micro-cosmic orbit' (widely know via ManTak Chia), involve forceful squeezing, contracting the perineum muscles (at the base of the pelvic cavity), which can evoke a vivid sensation of qi/yang rising up through the spine and flooding, even 'exploding' through the head.

(Clinical note: in my practice ofclassical Chinese medicine, several cases have presented where people got into serious medical trouble by inappropriate cultivation of 'Kundalini' type practices. The theoretical explanation, in brief, is that lacking adequate cultivation of grounding in the yin earth / water aspects, unleashing air and fire energies leads to imbalances in dynamic flow (wood), that can cause damage – qi / functional malfunction resulting in organic damage. Think running an unbalanced flywheel (e.g. in an auto motor) to extreme RPMs, and having it explode.)