Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

Chuck Kasmire, modified 6 Years ago.

Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

Posts: 559 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
The following is an excerpt from an interview with Jim Tucker by Bhantes Brahmali and Sujato that I came upon yesterday and thought I would pass it along (full transcript here). It relates an interesting story of one of the cases that Jim came across in his research.

"Jim B. Tucker, M.D., is the medical director of the Child & Family Psychiatry Clinic, and Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences at the University of Virginia. His main research interests are children who claim to remember previous lives, and natal and prenatal memories. He is the author of Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children’s Memories of Previous Lives, and Return to Life: Extraordinary Cases of Children Who Remember Past Lives. He is continuing the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson at the UVA Division of Perceptual Studies."

Jim: ...we recently did a survey here [in the US]—and we got to delve into the statistics and explore a little more—and when people were asked if one of their own children had talked about a past life, the parents said yes in 6 % of households, which is way above the study in India and way above what we would have predicted. We tried to ask these people what their child had actually said, because it may be that some of these were not what we would consider to be our kind of case. This was in a number of counties in Virginia, not a hotbed of reincarnation by any measure. But it certainly suggests that it’s more common even here than we had known. I should add that this was 6% of households, not 6% of children, and so with families with multiple kids at least one of them would have had one. Still, that would be a lot of people.....

Brahmali: One of the things I’d been hoping you would do as well, Jim, is to tell us one of the stories, one of the good cases. The story you tell in your book Return to Life [Ed.: St. Martin’s Press, 2013] about James Leininger is very good and powerful. Would you be able to share that story?

Jim: Sure, it's quite a remarkable case. It was one that unfortunately, despite my best efforts, I got to fairly late, but fortunately the parents had kept records. It concerns a little boy James Leininger growing up in Louisiana with Christian parents. Around the time of his second birthday he started having terrible nightmares of a plane crash, and he would be kicking his legs up in the air and screaming, “Air-plane crash on fire, little man can’t get out.” These were going on multiple times a week, and it was quite traumatic for the parents to see their little toddler go through this. Then during the day he would take his toy airplanes and say, “Air-plane crash on fire,” and just slam them into the coffee table, over and over again. It looked like a child who had been traumatised, really. Then he started talking about these dreams while he was awake, saying they were from a past life and that he had been a pilot who had been shot down by the Japanese during World War II. He named the kind of plane that he had flown, a kind of plane called a Corsair. Eventually he said he had flown off a boat. His parents asked for the name, and he said Natoma, which is quite strange. For most Americans, if we were asked the name of US aircraft carrier, it would be a long time before we would say Natoma. It doesn’t even seem like an English word. But that's what he said.

They always asked him what his name was and he would always say me or James. They didn’t make anything of it at the time. But one time they asked him who else was there, and he said Jack, Jack Larsen. Then when he was 2½, his dad got a book about Iwo Jima, which was quite a famous battle during World War II. He had got it to give it to his own father first of all. As he was looking through it one Saturday morning, James came and got into his lap, and they got to a picture of Iwo Jima island, which has a very specific volcano. James pointed at it and said that’s where his plane was shot down. This really floored his father. Before that point, his father had basically been trying to write this off as fantasising. But having his 2½ year old telling him where his plane was shot down was quite something.

So he started to investigate, initially just to show that there was nothing to this. But the more he got into it, the more he learnt that what James had said matched very closely to a particular pilot. It turned out there was an aircraft carrier called the USS Natoma Bay, and it was in the Pacific during World War II, and in fact it did take part in the Iwo Jima operation, where it lost one pilot. It meant that if James was really recalling a past life there was only one pilot whose life he could be remembering: a young man from Pennsylvania, which is over a thousand miles away from where James was growing up, a young man named James Houston.

When James Leininger became old enough to draw he would draw these battle scenes with planes and he always signed them James III, and he said he was the third James. Well, it tuned out that James Houston was James Houston Junior, which would make James Leininger the third James. James Houston had in fact flown a Corsair like James Leininger mentioned. He was indeed shot down by the Japanese, and the way he had been shot down matched precisely the details that James Leininger gave. He had said the plane had been shot in the engine, it crashed into the water, it sank, and he couldn’t get out, and that’s exactly how Houston was killed. On the day he was killed, the pilot of the plane next to his was named Jack Larsen.

So this was a case where the man had died over 50 years before and he was from another part of the country and his life and death matched exactly what this little boy had said.
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon
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Psi, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

Does a brain wave end, or does a brain wave fade out into infinity? Does any form of energy end, or does it just change incessantly?

So, if consciousness is a form of energy , as all phenomenon seem to be, then it could be, that this energy could find a way and come back into the sense organs of another being, and the old consciousness energy pattern would than find a new home to play out it's old unfinished patterns of energy.

 What if past life memories are not mine, not myself, and not I , but yet are just a memory of a past life?

So, it is not  a mind that leaves one body and enters another, but perhaps energy shifting from one form into another form.  i.e. heat can be transferred from one object to another.  So too, perhaps, could conscious energy transfer form one object to another.

But, this would mean that a past life memory would not be someone's personal past life experience, but they would still be subject to the interplay of energies involved, and thus inherited the past karmic residue.

Could be...

Just speculation...

Psi
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Psi:
Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

Does a brain wave end, or does a brain wave fade out into infinity? Does any form of energy end, or does it just change incessantly?

So, if consciousness is a form of energy , as all phenomenon seem to be, then it could be, that this energy could find a way and come back into the sense organs of another being, and the old consciousness energy pattern would than find a new home to play out it's old unfinished patterns of energy.



I was simply pointing out what seem like unBuddhist ideas. For example, about 'consciousness', the scriptures refer to it as 'cognition' rather than an 'energy pattern'.

'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.

MN 43


And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness

SN 22.79
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Psi, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky:
Psi:
Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

Does a brain wave end, or does a brain wave fade out into infinity? Does any form of energy end, or does it just change incessantly?

So, if consciousness is a form of energy , as all phenomenon seem to be, then it could be, that this energy could find a way and come back into the sense organs of another being, and the old consciousness energy pattern would than find a new home to play out it's old unfinished patterns of energy.



I was simply pointing out what seem like unBuddhist ideas. For example, about 'consciousness', the scriptures refer to it as 'cognition' rather than an 'energy pattern'.

'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus, friend, it is said to be 'consciousness.' And what does it cognize? It cognizes 'pleasant.' It cognizes 'painful.' It cognizes 'neither painful nor pleasant.' 'It cognizes, it cognizes': Thus it is said to be 'consciousness.

MN 43


And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness

SN 22.79

That is true, Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness.  And now, we have something called consciousness, something called consciousness that arises and passes away.  But, as we know, all things that arise and pass away, do not just disappear, they merely change form.  And, some things keep their pattern for a long, long time.  Now, since we do not, as yet , have any instruments available to the public, to measure or really even find an object to study that we can call consciousness, we can only observe phenomenon related to consciousness.

At least, as far as I know, since we can not nail down exactly what consciousness is in the physical world, and this is my assumption, that for things to be things, by definition, things have some sort of physical or energy pattern to interact within the world. And , Consciousness must be some sort of thing, just for us to be discussing it, otherwise it would be a no thing, nothing, and would not exist.

So, how long does a Consciousness last after it has arisen?  How long does a Consciousness Pattern last after it has exited the sense doors?
Perhaps this is how Karma works, cause and effect, 
Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a defiled mind is to draw pain after oneself, like a wheel behind the feet of the animal drawing it. 1

Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a peaceful mind, is to draw happiness after oneself, like an inseparable shadow. 2

So, perhaps what we do with the mind is very important, perhaps we leave a trail of pure or impure consciousness, which follows us, like some unseen mind vapors , interacting with all around us.
The scent of flowers cannot travel against the wind, and nor can that of sandalwood or jasmine, but the fragrance of the good does travel against the wind, and a good man perfumes the four quarters of the earth. 54

The perfume of tagara and sandalwood is of little enough power, while the supreme fragrance, that of the virtuous, reaches even up to the devas. 56



So, what is emitting to the four quarters of the earth?  What reaches even up to the devas?  Hmmm...  Is this just metaphorical?  Or, is the Buddha actually pointing to something even deeper?  A reality, just beyond our senses?  

But, true, the Buddha does not call it Consciousness, or a Soul, Is it just called cause and effect?  I am just asking due to my ignorance, I do not know.

Anyway, not trying to derail the thread, but to me, this does seem important to the thread in trying to show that at least the claims of the phenomenon that James Leininger reports, within the original post, may at least be possibly , true.

And, to show that while it may not be reincarnation, but rather rebirth of a consciousness, James Leininger cognizing the thought sensation of James Houston Junior, the pilot.  Now, this is a rather large mental formation to cognize, but if it were cognized, either as painful or pleasant, or neither painful nor pleasant, It cognizes, it cognizes, and thus friend it is called consciousness.

I mean, I surely don't know how all this would work or could  be explained by science, but it is interesting to observe this as phenomenon, and see how it does fit into what the Buddha taught, at least from what I can tell.  Though it all is rather mindblowing...emoticon

Psi
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Chris J Macie, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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re: Psi(1/8/15 11:30 PM as a reply to Nicky. )
 
" Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a defiled mind is to draw pain after oneself, like a wheel behind the feet of the animal drawing it. 1"

Psi, whose translation is that(of the opening verse of the Dhammapada)?

"I mean, I surely don't know how all this would work or could  be explained by science,…"


From both Buddha teachings re 'rebirth' (in the sense of not personal, but impersonal conscious patterns re-becoming), and Abhidhamma elaboration thereof, as well as from anecdotal evidence such as Jim Tucker reports, it's clear that some 'mental events' have a sort of life of their own, occur and reoccur, not 'belonging' to any individual – experience is, in some sense,actual, but, as we are told, is not "I/me/mine".

Science, as currently implemented, works best by isolation and reduction, reducing variables and demonstrating rather limited instances of cause-and-effect; then stringing these together, associating them, into larger patterns. If science had a language for representing patterns of consciousness,and could so observe, analyze all the experiences and conditioning contextual factors (influences, learning from others and all sensations that impinge, associate, hint, remind of,…) of all human beings that ever lived and are now living, it might be able to find away to 'explain' what's going on here. (But who would finance that? Maybe the marketing industry.)

Reminds me of a paradox / joke: Techies created the biggest super-computer possible, and asked it the question: "Is there a God?" It answered: "Insufficient data at this time". A hundred years later, a similar attempt -- same answer. Eons later, when the whole material universe becomes fashioned into the ultimate super-computer, again: "Is there a God?" Answer: "There is now!"

btw (for the geeks here): recent news item – Cray Research (leader in making supercomputers for the last 50 years or so) recently delivered the latest and greatest machine, whose performance is measures 'peta-flops' (quadrillions of floating-point operations per second), to some Arab country. It's made of of some 200,000 high-performance microprocessors!
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Psi, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Chris J Macie:
re: Psi(1/8/15 11:30 PM as a reply to Nicky. )
 
" Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a defiled mind is to draw pain after oneself, like a wheel behind the feet of the animal drawing it. 1"

Psi, whose translation is that(of the opening verse of the Dhammapada)?
John Richards, Translator

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/dhammapada.htm


Psi

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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Chris J Macie:

From both Buddha teachings re 'rebirth' (in the sense of not personal, but impersonal conscious patterns re-becoming), and Abhidhamma elaboration thereof, as well as from anecdotal evidence such as Jim Tucker reports, it's clear that some 'mental events' have a sort of life of their own, occur and reoccur, not 'belonging' to any individual – experience is, in some sense,actual, but, as we are told, is not "I/me/mine".



I would question what is written above because by 'birth' the Buddha generally referred to the arising of the 'self-idea'. Thus 'rebirth' always involves the re-arising or re-creation of the 'self-idea', which is suffering. emoticon

~~There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.

~~Parileyyaka Sutta




~~The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving to be, craving not to be: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

MN 43




Through many a birth in samsara have I wandered in vain, seeking the builder of this house. Each new birth bringing suffering!

O house-builder, you are seen! You will not build this house again. For your rafters are broken and your ridgepole shattered. My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Jaravagga
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Psi:

So, how long does a Consciousness last after it has arisen?  How long does a Consciousness Pattern last after it has exited the sense doors?
Perhaps this is how Karma works, cause and effect, 
Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a defiled mind is to draw pain after oneself, like a wheel behind the feet of the animal drawing it. 1

Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a peaceful mind, is to draw happiness after oneself, like an inseparable shadow. 2

So, perhaps what we do with the mind is very important, perhaps we leave a trail of pure or impure consciousness, which follows us, like some unseen mind vapors , interacting with all around us.
The scent of flowers cannot travel against the wind, and nor can that of sandalwood or jasmine, but the fragrance of the good does travel against the wind, and a good man perfumes the four quarters of the earth. 54

The perfume of tagara and sandalwood is of little enough power, while the supreme fragrance, that of the virtuous, reaches even up to the devas. 56



So, what is emitting to the four quarters of the earth?  What reaches even up to the devas?  Hmmm...  Is this just metaphorical?  Or, is the Buddha actually pointing to something even deeper?  A reality, just beyond our senses?  


Psi


The scriptures say consciousness lasts far less than the physical body.
~~It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. ~~Assutavā Sutta

Also, consciousness does not have any 'pattern' nor is consciousness related to karmic fruit. 

This is why Dependent Origination explains that ignorance & associate tendencies (1st link) via fabricating (2nd link) condition consciousness (3rd link).

It is ignorance that has a 'pattern' (rather than consciousness).

The Buddha explained mentality is manyfold, such as vinnana (consciousness), mind-heart (citta) and intellect (mano) or such as the aggregates of feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

Karma & result are related to the citta or mental formations (sankhara khandha) and memory.

Although very occassionally the scriptures use the term 'consciousness' where 'citta' should be used, the majority of teachings explain what is purified by enlightenment is the citta.

What becomes undefiled is the citta.

When the Buddha declared his 1st words, he said: "My citta (mind) has entered into that state in which nothing can stir it up again".

Consciousness is mere sense awareness. Whereas the part of the mind that stores karmic impressions, defilements, habitual tendencies, etc, is the citta or sankhara aggregate.

emoticon

 
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Psi, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky:
Psi:

So, how long does a Consciousness last after it has arisen?  How long does a Consciousness Pattern last after it has exited the sense doors?
Perhaps this is how Karma works, cause and effect, 
Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a defiled mind is to draw pain after oneself, like a wheel behind the feet of the animal drawing it. 1

Mind precedes its objects. They are mind-governed and mind-made. To speak or act with a peaceful mind, is to draw happiness after oneself, like an inseparable shadow. 2

So, perhaps what we do with the mind is very important, perhaps we leave a trail of pure or impure consciousness, which follows us, like some unseen mind vapors , interacting with all around us.
The scent of flowers cannot travel against the wind, and nor can that of sandalwood or jasmine, but the fragrance of the good does travel against the wind, and a good man perfumes the four quarters of the earth. 54

The perfume of tagara and sandalwood is of little enough power, while the supreme fragrance, that of the virtuous, reaches even up to the devas. 56



So, what is emitting to the four quarters of the earth?  What reaches even up to the devas?  Hmmm...  Is this just metaphorical?  Or, is the Buddha actually pointing to something even deeper?  A reality, just beyond our senses?  


Psi


The scriptures say consciousness lasts far less than the physical body.
~~It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. ~~Assutavā Sutta

Also, consciousness does not have any 'pattern' nor is consciousness related to karmic fruit. 

This is why Dependent Origination explains that ignorance & associate tendencies (1st link) via fabricating (2nd link) condition consciousness (3rd link).

It is ignorance that has a 'pattern' (rather than consciousness).

The Buddha explained mentality is manyfold, such as vinnana (consciousness), mind-heart (citta) and intellect (mano) or such as the aggregates of feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness.

Karma & result are related to the citta or mental formations (sankhara khandha) and memory.

Although very occassionally the scriptures use the term 'consciousness' where 'citta' should be used, the majority of teachings explain what is purified by enlightenment is the citta.

What becomes undefiled is the citta.

When the Buddha declared his 1st words, he said: "My citta (mind) has entered into that state in which nothing can stir it up again".

Consciousness is mere sense awareness. Whereas the part of the mind that stores karmic impressions, defilements, habitual tendencies, etc, is the citta or sankhara aggregate.

emoticon

 

Agreed on your explanation of the definition of Consciousness, What I am describing would better be termed Mental Energy, or even perhaps the energy involved in Consciousness, and it's emanations.

And , yes, while to the mind, consciousness is very brief, say there is a sound wave, and it hit the ear, there is ear consciousness.

BUT, the sound wave carries on, this is a fact.

 What I am supposing is simply this, There is a mental phenomenon, and the it is registerd by the mind, there is mind consciousness,

But, the mental energy carries on. I do not know if this is a fact, but I do not see why it would simply stop.

Does that make sense?

Psi
Andreas, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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The buddha talked about six conscioussnesses, hearing, seeing etc which goes totally against our understanding of senses today and we have a lot of them. Just because some text claims that the buddha said something doesnt mean it is or is not so in reality outside of scripture. The issue is then also that most of the stuff attributed to buddha originates from lots of different sources, there is no pure oldest teaching of buddha available to us. Also Buddha didnt want to speculate about death, self, the universe etc according to some suttas. Think its a list of dichotomies.
Not that I believe in rebirth myself.
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. Jake ., modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

lol
wait what...?
didn't he say, with ignorance, mental formations arise; with mental formations, consciousness arises; with consciousness name and form arise; with name and form, the six senses arise; with senses, contact; with contact, feeling; with feeling, craving; with craving, clinging; with clinging, with clinging, becoming; with becmoing, birth; with birth, old age and death.
Or something like that. I'm no Pali scholar. Maybe the popular presentations of DO are incorrect? If so, can you clarify?
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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. Jake .:
Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

lol
wait what...?
didn't he say, with ignorance, mental formations arise; with mental formations, consciousness arises; with consciousness name and form arise; with name and form, the six senses arise; with senses, contact; with contact, feeling; with feeling, craving; with craving, clinging; with clinging, with clinging, becoming; with becmoing, birth; with birth, old age and death.
Or something like that. I'm no Pali scholar. Maybe the popular presentations of DO are incorrect? If so, can you clarify?

Sure, the scriptures something similar to the above (but not exactly). But this does not mean these words are understood correctly.

Most importantly, the scriptures say these words are to be understood via direct meditation experience so if they refer to reincarnation how can they be observed directly?

I can certainly share my reading of it. However it is easier to refer you to Thanissaro's internet book: 'Shape of Suffering' (ignoring some references he makes to 'rebirth'). Here, he explains the 12 links according to my reading.

The 2nd link is not 'mental' or 'karmic formations'. Instead, the 2nd link is 'fabricators' or 'conditioners'.

The 3rd link does not refer to any reincarnation of consciousness but, instead, the concocting/stirring up of consciousness by the 1st & 2nd links.

The 11th link is the birth of the idea of a 'self', 'being' or 'person' (satta).

The 12th link is the same, the aging & death of the mental idea of a 'being'.

The word 'birth' in Pali does not necesarily refer to physical birth from a womb.

Anyway, if you wish to meditate upon each link, inwardly, use 'Shape of Suffering' as a guide. It is not too hard if we know the right translation of the Pali (below).

Regards emoticon

And what are fabricators? These three are fabricators: bodily fabricator, verbal fabricator, mental fabricator. These are called fabricators.

SN 12.2
But what are bodily fabricators? What are verbal fabricators? What are mental fabricators?

In-&-out breaths are bodily fabricators. Directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabricators. Perceptions & feelings are the mind fabricators.

Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabricators.

MN 44
What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future

MN 18
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within.

SN 22.53
And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, entering, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance (manifestation) of aggregates & acquired sense spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. SN 12.2

'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?

Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form...feelings...perceptions...formations...consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.' SN 23.2


Where is the maker of the being?
Where has the being arisen?
Where does the being cease?

Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

SN 5.10




Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.

~~But, lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? For I have intentionally killed many living beings.

Then in that case, Angulimala, go to that woman and on arrival say to her, 'Sister, since I was born in the noble birth, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth may there be wellbeing for you, wellbeing for your fetus.

MN 56
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Not Tao, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon


It contradicts modern Theravada interpretation of what the Buddha taught, but then you have to ignore how he says part of right view is believeing in past lives and reincarnation - and you have to ignore how the only stories where he recounts his own enlightenment rely heavily on memories of past lives in samsara.

I also ignore that part of Buddhism, just to be clear, haha, but let's not pretend it's that way in the suttas. emoticon

Oh, sorry Chuck, we're derailing your thread. I don't know what to think about reincarnation. It's hard to take a stance on what consciousness is, exactly... When I was a kid I used to talk about "ghostly land" which was where I was from - and I had an imaginary "ghosty friend" - but I'm pretty sure I made all that up. Can't trust kids - even kid versions of yourself!

Your story about the boy sounds a lot like that "heaven is for real" movie - it's hard to be convinced by it since we can't know the circumstances. Maybe he changed his parents' minds though. That's usually the kind of thing that has to hit close to home to be meaningful.

EDIT: Actually, if you think about the idea presented in the abhidhamma that consciousness arises moment to moment as discrete and separate phenomena, and it's ignorance that is holding these phenomena together as a cohesive perpetual self, then what's stopping this illusion of self from continuing between lifetimes so long as ignorance is still there?  Interesting idea.  I don't really like it personally, but it's sound conceptually.
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Eric M W, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

The concept of rebirth is a core tenant of basically all schools of Buddhism. Note that the Buddha said that sotapannas can only be reborn seven times, sakadagamis only once, etc. One of the siddhis that the Buddha mentioned was the ability to see one's own and others' past lives. Look in the rather well-known sutta, The Fruits of the Homeless Life.

The Theravada teacher Dipa Mas was once asked, if there is no soul or self, what is it that sees, hears, and meditates? Her answer: wisdom. So, if we were to flip the question around and ask what is reborn if there is no self, the answer, I suspect, would be ignorance.

I personally have had a past-life experience, involving a very specific military rank, a very specific uniform, and a very unusual last name. I did some research and there was, in fact, a man by that name and rank who participated in the American Civil War. Was this "me?" I don't know. But it is very interesting.

Another tidbit: my mother once told me that, when I was a toddler, I often told her about how I "dreamed before I was born" that I was a man in a war, standing next to a cannon.

Experiences like these are compelling, regardless of what the Buddha taught.
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Eric M W:
Nicky:
It seems to contradict the core teachings of the Buddha, who seemed to have explained that without a body, without sense organs, there can be no arising of consciousness. The scriptures explain mind depends on body thus how can the mind leave one body and enter into another? emoticon

The concept of rebirth is a core tenant of basically all schools of Buddhism. Note that the Buddha said that sotapannas can only be reborn seven times, sakadagamis only once, etc. One of the siddhis that the Buddha mentioned was the ability to see one's own and others' past lives. Look in the rather well-known sutta, The Fruits of the Homeless Life.

The Theravada teacher Dipa Mas was once asked, if there is no soul or self, what is it that sees, hears, and meditates? Her answer: wisdom. So, if we were to flip the question around and ask what is reborn if there is no self, the answer, I suspect, would be ignorance.

I personally have had a past-life experience, involving a very specific military rank, a very specific uniform, and a very unusual last name. I did some research and there was, in fact, a man by that name and rank who participated in the American Civil War. Was this "me?" I don't know. But it is very interesting.

Another tidbit: my mother once told me that, when I was a toddler, I often told her about how I "dreamed before I was born" that I was a man in a war, standing next to a cannon.

Experiences like these are compelling, regardless of what the Buddha taught.

I have not read any evidence in the scriptures that a stream-enterer is reborn 7 more times. The scriptures refer to many stream-enterers (such as Kondanna and Sariputta) that soon after became arahants.

There is the Nakhasikha Sutta however my investigation of the Pali cannot find the term '7 more lives'. The sutta is about 'the breakthrough' that results in stream-entry and the sutta probably states there are 7 more 'breakthroughs' at most for the stream-enterer to make, i.e., the stream-enterer has 7 more fetters to break for arahantship.

Also, I have not read any evidence in the scriptures that refer to experiencing 'past lives'. The Pali term is 'pubbanivesa', which literally means 'past homes' or 'past dwellings' or 'past adherences'. The Khajjaniya Sutta and Haliddakani Sutta provide explanations of this that are not related to reincarnation but, instead, about thinking in the past "I was" this, "I was" that.

As for Dipa Ma, I heard she had psychic powers but many non-Buddhists have psyhic powers. Children can have psychic powers but not enlightenment. For example, what sees, hears, meditates, etc, is consciousness (rather than wisdom). If Dipa Ma did actually say it is wisdom that sees, hears, meditates, etc, she was definitely wrong since an ignorant mind also sees, hears, etc.

'Past life experience' is merely a mental formation. For example, each night the minds/brains of people create dreams & these dreams are not necessarily past life experiences. They are probably mere mental constructions and imaginations. Again, the Khajjaniya Sutta states if the mind regards any mental formation as "I", "me", "mine", etc, then it has wrong view.

Also, psychic powers can result in the transfer of information of one to another. Thus the information in our mind does not necessarily mean it comes from a past life. Even if our psychic powers are latent (rather than manifest), a part of our mind could be receiving information from elsewhere. Otherwise, people with actual psychic powers could be placing information in our mind about people who lived and events that occured in the past. Why do people who claim past life experience always seem to claim events that are known historically (rather than events with no historical record)?

When you were a toddler, who knows? Maybe your mind registered information it heard spoken but did not remember then event (due to the mind's immaturity)?

Anyway, I was just pointing I have read little evidence in the original scriptures (apart from one or two questionable suttas) that the core principles of Buddhism support reincarnation.

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Eric M W, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Here are the Buddha's words, in the sutta I mentioned previously (Fruits of the Homeless Life):

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. 

There was a thread here a while ago where there was some discussion between the concept of reincarnation vs. the more subtle concept of rebirth. Perhaps it is relevant to the discussion.
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Eric M W:
Here are the Buddha's words, in the sutta I mentioned previously (Fruits of the Homeless Life):

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. "With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives (lit: previous homes). He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, , 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. 

There was a thread here a while ago where there was some discussion between the concept of reincarnation vs. the more subtle concept of rebirth. Perhaps it is relevant to the discussion.

This quote is certainly a translation but not necessarily the words/meaning of the Buddha.

The word 'birth' can refer to 'self-idea' or 'self-identity', which has ocurred millions of times in this present life (until enlightenment).

The word 'aeon' does not necessary mean as such. For example, in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the Pali 'kappa' is used to simply mean 'a certain period of time' (when the Buddha says to Ananda he can prolong his life longer. He did not mean for an 'aeon').

Similarly, the word 'food' (ahara) means much more than mere physical food.  There are 4 ahara: physical food, intention, contact & consciousness.

Most of the meaning of the above translation can be debunked. At least to me, it is pure materialism.

As I posted, in the Khajjaniya Sutta , the recollection of 'past dwellings' is discussed and it is made clear that to regard any past dwelling as "I", "me" or "mine" is wrong view.

The Khajjaniya Sutta simply states that when you were 4 years old and believed: "X & Y are my mother & father", this was wrong view. The sense objects called 'mother & father' were merely five selfless aggregates, as the Khajjaniya Sutta states.

The Buddha always said when a mind is not yet fully enlightened, it may, in the present, have no interest in sensuality or not have self-view. Yet it many wander back to past sensuality or get enthusiastic (reminisce) about ideas of 'self' from the past.

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Andreas, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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What is the correct translation for the word that is commonly translated as rebirth? If it got multiple meanings why use such a stupid word in the first place. Why not reforming, reappearance etc. If the used word was commonly used to refer to physical birth then there must have been A ALOT of clarifications during the buddhas speaches.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Nicky: How you conclude that Buddha did not teach rebirth is beyond me but may I suggest you go to accesstoinsight.org and do a sutta search with the term ‘rebirth’ and then start reading through the 400+ hits. If you still feel as you do now then maybe start a thread on that topic?

I would like to stay on topic if at all possible. This is not about beliefs. The experience that Eric relates - according to some quick and dirty math - is shared by something like a million young children in the US alone - as we read. Though it does not prove rebirth - and Jim talks about this - it does indicate that we need to reconsider how we think of reality and he also offers some thoughts on that.

Here is another case from a different interview (skeptico) with Jim:
Ryan is one, again, of a pair of Christian parents. And he is a little boy in Oklahoma who started telling his mom about a life in Hollywood he had and he was crying about it every day. And eventually he pointed to a man in a picture from an old movie and said, ‘Hey, that’s me. That’s who I was.’ And he also pointed to another guy and said, ‘Hey, that’s George. We did a movie together.’ And then he pointed to another man and said, ‘That’s me.’ Well, the George he pointed to was George Raft, who was a movie star back in the 1930s or 1940s. The other guy that he pointed to was an extra who had no lines in the movie. So his mom emailed me, or actually wrote me a letter, to see if I could help in identifying him. And eventually with the help of a Hollywood archivist we were able to identify that man. Meanwhile, Ryan is saying all kinds of things about his past life. He said he had danced in New York and gone on to Hollywood. He had been in movies and he worked for an agency and he had seen the world on big boats, and he had this big house with a swimming pool. All of this stuff seemed quite unlikely to me for an extra with no lines in the movie. But it turned out this fellow was a guy named Marty Martyn and his life, in fact, did match those details. He danced on Broadway and then he went to Hollywood. He was in movies and then started a talent agency which was quite successful. And Marty Martyn went to Europe on the Queen Mary and had fancy cars and did have a big house and a swimming pool. And Ryan had said that the street address had the word ‘rock’ or ‘mount’ in it, and Marty Martyn’s house was on Rocksbury. So again, it was a case where there were a lot of specific details that were clearly documented and then once the previous person was identified the details matched in a way that is inconceivable – that Ryan could have learned all this through some normal means.

On the nature of reality:
Jim: I think really we have to look at reality differently in order to fully understand the cases. You can’t just map these cases, obviously, on a materialist understanding of the world. But I think if you stop and consider it is not just that the world is primary, and sort of consciousness is bouncing from one life to the next or whatever. I don’t think that is how it works. But if you consider that consciousness is the primary thing and then this world that we see is just a creation of that consciousness, then it does give a different perspective of trying to understand what this is all about.....I spent a chapter exploring quantum physics, and quantum physics can be used by people sort of superficially to back new-age beliefs. But what I tried to do is show how people arrive at conclusions, as Max Planck, the founder of quantum theory, did when he said that he recorded consciousness as fundamental and that physical matter was derived from it. And I show why people can think this. And eventually it appears that on the quantum level, the smallest and most basic level of the universe, that events only occur once their results are observed. So before observation, there are only potentials. There is not an outcome until it is observed. Which is analogous to our nighttime dreams, where there are all these potential figures from our life that could be in the dreams but they only exist in that world once we observe them. And it seems, in some strange way, that reality is very similar to that. And this leads to an idea that, again, the consciousness is what is fundamental in reality and that the physical universe simply grows out of that.
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Nicky, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Chuck Kasmire:
Nicky: How you conclude that Buddha did not teach rebirth is beyond me but may I suggest you go to accesstoinsight.org and do a sutta search with the term ‘rebirth’ and then start reading through the 400+ hits. If you still feel as you do now then maybe start a thread on that topic?



I would recommend you consider my posts since we have all read the questionable translations in Access To Insight many times. There is no evidence, anywhere, that words translated as 'reborn' or 'reappear' have the meaning you are implying.  All the scriptures state is performing a good or bad action results in taking birth in a happy or unhappy state. The word 'marana' or 'death' does not necessarily mean a corpse. If these scriptures are intepretated as you do then performing a good action will only bring a happy result in a future life rather than in this life. For example, robbing a bank will lead to imprisonment in another life but not in this life. Thus your interpretation seems to negate the operation of karma in this life and relegates it to life to life. Regards. emoticon
Steve, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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It is very interesting to read that Dr. Tucker's project is getting more domestic cases.

I think of all the Hindus who have claimed to see Ganesh statues drink little bits of milk from a spoon or Catholics claiming to see Virgin Mary statues weeping.   I remember reading in a yoga book as a teenager a Swami warning people of seeing visions of religious figures after long bouts of meditation.  Then there is all of the modern psychological research about people seeing what they have been trained to see.

Little Christian boys from Virginia claiming to have lived before is less likely to be a result of cultural conditioning.
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sawfoot _, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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https://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2009/08/03/shot-down-in-flames/
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html

Both links have a pretty good debunking of the claims from Jim Tucker about this case. Note, this interview by Jim Tucker from 2014, doesn't mention some pertinent details that might make seem this case less remarkable, e.g.:

"At 18 months old, his father, Bruce Leininger, took James to the Kavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas, where the toddler remained transfixed by World War II aircraft. A few months later, the nightmares began....Andrea's mother suggested she look into the work of counselor and therapist Carol Bowman, who believes that the dead sometimes can be reborn.With guidance from Bowman, they began to encourage James to share his memories — and immediately, Andrea says, the nightmares started to become less frequent. James was also becoming more articulate about his apparent past, she said."

For a discussion of Buddhist ideas about rebirth, Jayarava has amassed an impression collection of posts here,
http://jayarava.blogspot.co.uk/p/afterlife.html
Andreas, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Its funny sometimes when one reads buddhist commentary etc one wonders why they dont just shoot themselves in the head. That would stop their suffering straight away, its a perfectly valid response if one is a secular buddhist. If you bitch about life, dont believe in reincarnation, then solution is suicide. Since there is no self anyway whats stopping you. Just kill yourself.
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Daniel Leffler, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Interesting, thanks for sharing SF
I also read your links, and looked for skeptical essays regarding Ian Stevenson's work, which there are plenty
Though you will admit the body of Stevenson's collected data is intriguing, no? He was Tucker's mentor
I also just re-read Brian Weiss's 'Many Lives Many Masters' (which I read when it first came out in 1988, I was 14)
It's also pretty compelling, although pretty woo-woo and poetic. Somehow I find it hard to trust bad writers : ) - cliff's notes here
I did some skeptic googling on Weiss as well (he's under the microscope after having been taken in and uplifted in his own way under Oprah Inc.)
There's not much there to criticize as far as I can tell
Being that you're a materialist sciency type sawfoot, I'd like to run my own big TOE by you and get your (layman's please) feedback (I'm a carpenter not a smarty pants)
It seems that the Newtonian/materialist viewpoint holds up quite well until you go to the very miniscule (where locations of electrons become 'probability fields' and flickering phenomenon cannot be objectively observed without being effected themselves) to the massively huge (as our accelerating universe needs a concocted theory of non-observable 'dark matter' in order to explain the otherwise inexplicable observations to make the equations work). So, my idea is, as things get very subtle and very small (or very huge and big beyond belief) materialism (as we know it) breaks down, and nerds are still looking to reconcile relativity and quantum theory for a real TOE
Could it be that trying to locate chakras and subtle bodies and consciousness and love in a material universe from a materialist perspective will always be Mu, since the original construct is too small to contain within what is being observed? I know this isn't a new idea (consciousness preceeding materiality that is)
Or, another way, what if the material world as we know it really is only a small subset of reality, and things like precognition, joy, rebirth and energy fields simply exist in other larger realities outside of the material spectrum, they aren't material so to speak and so we'll never see them from here - sort of like trying to see what's past our expanding universe, it's not gonna happen
Wouldn't that simple explanation make rebirth and OBEs and parallel universes so much less mystical and maybe even very possible?
For instance acupuncture works (based off energy meridians) and modern medicine has no idea why but accepts the efficacy while totally rejecting what it's based on. I feel 'energy' and qi gong has recently been very supportive for me and loads of others based on the same 'non-existent' energy system (whole 'nother post)
Not to say we can't quantify things (eventually) or write better than Brian Weiss (his poetic musings are tedious at times) or be peer reviewed and triple checked by other professionals etc, but...
'Many Lives Many Masters', as well as the between lives books of Dr Newton and the Newton Institute is intriguing stuff. There is something too new-agey and poetic about it, never quite adding up still. My working theory on that is we're not meant to necessarily know exactly the way things work in the 'spirit realm' because we may not be motivated to learn our lessons otherwise. If we know we're just coming back again and again we won't be so motivated to get of our asses in this life - maybe that's where the Buddhist hell realms come from (which are not a part of the new agey Newton et all understanding of rebirth at all) - so we'll be scared shitless into being better people, or maybe be virtuous for the sake of virtue alone - like it's set up to be murky and most of us aren't meant to know all the answers, not yet anyway
Or is this still all totally woo-woo?
Andreas, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Rebirth - Interview with Jim Tucker

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Daniel
Newtoinian physics is just a subset of einsteins general theory of relativity. Neither has anything really to do with materialism. They deal with what we have somewhat agreed constitutes matter and its interactions but that is not the same as materialism. There is no conflict between matter and supernatural phenomena since matter is just a definition.If supernatural phenomena exists is another debate all together giver the width of what constitutes the supernatural.

Also with regards to acupuncture there are studies and we know how it works, some things are placebo others are stimulating nerveclusters. There is also idea that with regards to the whole chakra, energy pathways they corresponds to our lymphsystem.

Breadcrumb