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AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma

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AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/5/15 3:49 PM

AN 5.159

PTS: A iii 184

Udayi Sutta: About Udayin

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 1997

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi, in Ghosita's Park. Now at that time Ven. Udayin was sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma. Ven. Ananda saw Ven. Udayin sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma, and on seeing him went to the Blessed One. On arrival, he bowed down to the Blessed One and sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Ven. Udayin, lord, is sitting surrounded by a large assembly of householders, teaching the Dhamma."

"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five?"

[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'
"

[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'
"

[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.'
"

[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'
"

[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without hurting myself or others.'
[1]

"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching."

Note1.According to the Commentary, "hurting oneself" means exalting oneself. "Hurting others" means putting other people down.

See also:Sn 4.8; AN 3.72; DN 16 (the Buddha's answer to Subhadda's question).©1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu.The text of this page ("Udayi Sutta: About Udayin", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License. To view a copy of the license, visithttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/. Documents linked from this page may be subject to other restrictions. Transcribed from a file provided by the translator.    Last revised for Access to Insight on 30 November 2013.How to cite this document (a suggested style): "Udayi Sutta: About Udayin" (AN 5.159), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight (Legacy Edition), 30 November 2013,http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.159.than.html .

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/5/15 4:12 PM as a reply to Psi.
If one were to teach Meditation or Methods of Meditation, they could charge whatever they wanted.  I do not think this is illegal or anything.  One could also teach altered states of consciousness or other techniques of Mind and Body training, I do not think this is a regulated industry.

But, if one were to teach the Dhamma as from the Buddha and charge for the Buddha's Dhamma teaching, this would be fairly unethical, for it is a teaching given freely.  In this case it would be a form of glomming on, a form of clinging, and perhaps a misrepresentaion of the teachings themselves.

If one were to teach their own form of Dhamma, then so be it, it may even be a form of Right Livelihood.  Surely teaching Meditation is better than many other forms of livelihood.

Yoga studios teach meditation, and no one seems to have a problem with that, it is beneficial and healthy to many.

Also, TM comes to mind, they charge a fee for courses, right?

But, to teach Buddhism for material gain goes against the very instructions of the founder, so this would not this be a form of taking?

This would be the same as if I opened up a Church and started teaching Christ's teachings from the New Testament in order to make a living, is that unethical?

But again, not everyone agrees that there really was a Buddha or a Christ, and if one believes that, it is a free-for-all. The copyrights ran out a thousand plus years ago. haha

Thoughts anyone?  

Psi

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/5/15 9:33 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi: I think no one saw this. You should have titled it "Click her for conflict" to attract more readers. I really don't know on this topic, but I appreciate that you were able to look at it from more than one perspective without leaving everything up to ambiguity, which to me is the mark of mature thinking.-Bill

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/5/15 10:45 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
Psi: I think no one saw this. You should have titled it "Click her for conflict" to attract more readers. I really don't know on this topic, but I appreciate that you were able to look at it from more than one perspective without leaving everything up to ambiguity, which to me is the mark of mature thinking.-Bill


Haha, this is one of those, "Why did I even post this? , posts..."

So now, you opened up my thoughts...

Perhaps,  it is more a question of Teaching Dhamma vs. Teaching Meditation.

But, if people only practice Meditation methods and expect to get fully liberated, well...

That is not Dhamma.  And you get results in what you train in.

But back to money, Everyone needs Food , Shelter, Clothing, and Medicine.  And teaching takes alot of time, and I wouldn't want spiritual teachers running around barefoot begging for food and digging in dumpsters, there is enough of that on the planet.  So, there is that reality.  

Edit, mistake, misread Sutta

Wonder if they ate the potato skins? 

Psi

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/6/15 1:29 PM as a reply to Psi.
This is great, thanks for posting it. A burst of insight for me. Last week I was listening to a talk or reading something - can’t remember but I think it was from Sujato - anyway he was saying how the rule about monks not being allowed to touch women isn’t really the case - that the instruction was that a monk should not touch a woman when there is lust in their mind - if that’s not the case then no problem. As I am reading this sutta, I see the same thing: it isn’t a rule about not teaching for money at all - it’s about sila - about knowing the state of your mind, your intentions, while and before acting.

If a person is teaching and getting an ego boost out of doing so then they are focusing on pride and it will at some point come crashing down on them. If they do it with the view that they are going to be rewarded for it, they abandon generosity - seeking out those who will reward them rather than those who might benefit as well as doing other useless things like changing the teaching based on marketability. So really it is about staying on the path and not getting lost in greed, hatred, and delusion.

It has been turned into this rule - thou shalt not.... - but it’s about the individual - a smart person will make use of it and a dumb one will probably learn the hard way but in any case, we all stew in a pot of our own making - let the cooking continue.

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/6/15 1:32 PM as a reply to Chuck Kasmire.
That seems a wonderfully sane response. Thanks, Chuck. And psi. 

Also, for Chuck, or Psi: You both seem to have looked more at the suttas than I have. Do you follow the suttas primarily for instruction, or is there any contemporary teachers, or instructions, you follow? I am interested in reading Analayo's "Sattipatthana". Thoughts?

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/6/15 2:33 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
That seems a wonderfully sane response. Thanks, Chuck. And psi. 

Also, for Chuck, or Psi: You both seem to have looked more at the suttas than I have. Do you follow the suttas primarily for instruction, or is there any contemporary teachers, or instructions, you follow? I am interested in reading Analayo's "Sattipatthana". Thoughts?

Hmmm, Any sutta can be read and integrated, it is like read a little , practice what was read, absord and integrate, read a little more.

The Potthapada Sutta covers the path to the end, if I remember correctly. 

Ayya Khema breaks it down here in these talks, she starts from the beginning of the Path, again if I remember correctly.  The way I listened was at 20 minutes to an hour a day until I had gone through the entire set of talks, either while walking, driving, or just sitting.  And was actually sad when it was over, in a good way, but that is anicca, dukkha , anatta for ya!

This book she wrote is based on the Potthapada Sutta and her talks, I enjoyed it, read with amazement at times...

http://smile.amazon.com/Who-My-Self-Buddhist-Meditation/dp/0861711270/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423253838&sr=8-1&keywords=who+is+my+self

The talks, lookout! You asked for it.... It is about 50 plus hours of Dhamma Talk, but interesting, and well worth it, in my opinion, covers pretty much everything.  Highly recommended.

http://ayyakhematalks.org/Bundanoon_Australia_1991.html


Or , as a alternate way of study you could follow Leigh Brasington and his Study Guide for suggestions, He was a Student of Ayya Khema.

http://www.leighb.com/studydn.htm


Whew!

Psi


Okay correction Samannaphala Sutta DN 2 The Fruits of the Spiritual Life covers the entire path, starting with the beginnings.

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/6/15 4:42 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi: Yes, that book is on my radar. I will check it out. I know Dharma Seed has a lot of her stuff. The quality is often grainy due to age but I like what I've heard so far.

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/6/15 5:00 PM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
Psi: Yes, that book is on my radar. I will check it out. I know Dharma Seed has a lot of her stuff. The quality is often grainy due to age but I like what I've heard so far.


Started the Bundanoon 1991 series today, with a 30 minute walk...

Off topic Finishing  up "My Dinner With Andre" dvd from the library

Psi

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/6/15 5:06 PM as a reply to Psi.
Amazing movie. 

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/7/15 9:13 AM as a reply to Psi.
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/to-teach.htm


Of course, this goes without saying, these are suggestions to be used when teaching what the Buddha taught.  Though, it all seems wise, regardless of any affiliations.


Understand Yourself First

Before instructing others, one has to know the subject thoroughly. It is very important for one to undergo religious practice. Without having experienced for oneself, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for one to instruct others properly.

'It cannot be, Cunda, that one who is sunk in mud can pull out another who is sunk in mud.' - M.I: 45

Not Easy to Teach the Dharma to Others

One day the Buddha said, 'Truly, Ananda, it is not easy to teach Dharma to others. In teaching Dharma to others, establish well five things, and then teach. What five? Teach Dharma to others thinking:
  • 'I will speak Dharma in a gradual way;
  • I will speak with the goal in mind;
  • I will speak with kindliness;
  • I will not speak as a means of gain;
  • I will speak not to harm anybody.'
For truly, Ananda, it is not easy to teach Dharma to others. So, in teaching Dharma to others, establish well these five things.' - MIL 183; G.S.III: 136

Who will Profit from Learning?

There are these four persons found in the world:
  • One with little learning who does not profit from his learning.
  • One of little learning who does profit from his learning.
  • One of great learning who does not profit from his learning, and
  • One of great learning who does profit from his learning. - A.II: 5
The Way People Understand
  • Ugghatitañña - One who learns by taking hints.
  • Vipacitañña - One who understands after learning the full details.
  • Neyya - One who has to be led on by systematic instructions.
  • Padaparama - One who just learns by rote. - AM: 135
Learning and Presentation
  • One who comprehends the meaning but is unable to explain it clearly.
  • One who is slow to comprehend the meaning but is able to explain it clearly.
  • One who has both of the above qualities.
  • One who has neither of them. - A.II: 135
How to Answer Questions

According to the Buddha, there are four ways of treating questions:
  • Some should be answered directly in brief.
  • Others should be answered by way of analysing them.
  • Yet others should be answered by counter-questions.
  • And lastly, there are questions which should be put aside because there are no answers to certain questions,
  • or because the questioners are not in a position yet to understand the answers. - A.II: 45
Qualities of a Teacher

The Venerable Sariputta said, 'When one who teaches wishes to teach another, let him establish five good qualities and then teach. Let him think:
  • I will speak at the right time, not at the wrong time.
  • I will speak about what reality is, not about what is not.
  • I will speak with gentleness, not with harshness.
  • I will speak about the goal, not about what is not the goal.
  • I will speak with a mind filled with love, not with a mind filled with ill-will. - A.III: 195
Be Your Own Saviour

'You yourself should make the effort for your salvation,The Buddha teaches you how to gain it.Those who enter this Path and who are meditativeAre delivered from suffering.' - Dh: 276

Self-confidence

'Do not depend on others for your salvation;Develop your self-confidence to gain it.' - D.II: 100

Accept Wisely

One should not accept anything out of emotional faith: But one should use one's common sense and understanding before accepting anything. - M.II: 170

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/7/15 9:31 AM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
I am interested in reading Analayo's "Sattipatthana". Thoughts?
I have the book, and it is quite academic, and at times a bit tedious. I think it is a fairly complete take from one perspective, however, and as a study guide to one who's interested in this sutta, it is helpful.

Joseph Goldstein gave a series of talks (about 46 in total) some years ago based on Analayo's book. It is available here: http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/6162/

I listened to these talks over the course of a year and found it immensely educational (before I actually bought the book).

edited: for clarity

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/7/15 11:44 AM as a reply to Bill F..
Bill F.:
That seems a wonderfully sane response. Thanks, Chuck. And psi. 

Also, for Chuck, or Psi: You both seem to have looked more at the suttas than I have. Do you follow the suttas primarily for instruction, or is there any contemporary teachers, or instructions, you follow? I am interested in reading Analayo's "Sattipatthana". Thoughts?

Hi Bill,
As far as my practice - the short answer is: it has mostly been from working with contemporary teachers that teach from the suttas though currently I look more to the suttas themselves. I have not read Analayo's work on the"Sattipatthana" but have read some of his work on the Chinese Agamas (which is mostly the suttas of the Sarvastivadan school as opposed to the Theravada which most are familiar with).  

Longer answer:
The most influential teacher I had was a Chinese Chi Gong Master who taught me how to relax mind and body and settle into the chi - aka subtle energy, breath energy. This was about 20 years ago. What led me to focus on the suttas was the very close correlation with what I experienced during that practice and what I came upon when I started looking at the suttas.

Later, I came upon the teachings of Thanissaro Bhikkhu - a western monk of the Thai Forest Tradition. He also teaches working with the breath energy (as he calls it). He has been very influential for me over the past 10 years or so. He teaches from the suttas - though with a Thai Forest twist - mostly the focus on energy and energy channels - but for me, because of my earlier chi gong training - a natural fit. In general, I think he is able to bring to life the more arcane language found in the suttas making it more accessible.

I also found the teachings of Bhante Vimalaramsi quite helpful. He is a bit quirky but has some good insights into the suttas and many useful practice tips sprinkled throughout his talks.

Both these teachers teach from the suttas and often reference them so this has helped me get more comfortable with them (suttas). I don’t always agree with their interpretations but at least I know the underlying sutta material they are working from.

My interest these days is early or pre-sectarian Buddhism - asking “what did Buddhas teaching look like when he was alive”. Bhante Sujato (an Australian monk), Bhante Brahmali (a Norwegian? monk), and Analayo are all involved in this effort/movement.  So here the effort is to kind of scrape off the later additions to try to get back to the older material.

I think I am learning more from the suttas now days than I have ever before - going back 15 years or so. And so I look to them more and more for the purpose of practice.

One approach I have often used is to do a sutta search on a given term (virtue, jhana, etc) at accesstoinsight and then look at the first 10 hits or so. This yields a broader, deeper meaning.

I think spending the time to learn about the culture in which Buddha taught as well as the history of at least the first few hundred years of Buddhism will make things much easier.

Some resources:
A History of Mindfulness by Sujato (free download) - highly recommend

Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts by Sujato and Brahmali (free)
http://www.ocbs.org/images/stories/authenticity.pdf

What the Buddha Thought by Richard Gombrich - might be available on the web.

Leigh Brasington has a list of suspect (later or corrupted) suttas here:
http://www.leighb.com/palisuttas.htm

A series of workshops held in Australia on Early Buddhism by Sujato and Brahmali -  Workshop 4 is on Meditation in early buddhism while the first one covers early history.

Course outline for all 6 workshops is here
http://www.media.bswa.org/documents/EarlyBuddhismCourseBSWA.pdf

First five courses here
http://www.dhammanet.org/archive/earlybuddhism

Session 6 seems all over the place:
Slide show http://media.bswa.org/articles/EarlyBuddhism6.pdf
Part 1 - http://media.bswa.org/sutta_study/BrahmaliSujato_EBC6S1_2013_07_27.mp3
Part 2 - http://media.bswa.org/sutta_study/BrahmaliSujatoW6S2_2013_07_27.mp3
Part 3 - https://dhammaloka.org.au/component/k2/item/1538-early-buddhism-course-workshop6-session-3.html

RE: AN 5.159 Udayi Sutta Teaching Dhamma
Answer
2/7/15 11:53 AM as a reply to Chuck Kasmire.
Thank you, Chuck. I'm familiar with those authors but have not checked out the resources. Working on a paper for a little, and then will take a closer look.

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