Pot an A&P drug?

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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
IME smoking pot causes 'energetic' phenomena and euphoria shortly after smoking. It's always followed by the DN. It would seem that pot consistently triggers a mild A&P event.

Potheads = A&P junkies?
Pot paranoia = stuck in Fear nana?

In Prometheus Rising, Robert Anton Wilson associates pot with the 5th circuit of Leary's Eight Circuit model -- neurosomatic circuit. The description seems to match mild A&P events.

Holistic bodily awareness seems to me to relate to the ability to perceive vibrations.
John Wilde, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Droll Dedekind:
IME smoking pot causes 'energetic' phenomena and euphoria shortly after smoking. It's always followed by the DN. It would seem that pot consistently triggers a mild A&P event.


That's never the sequence in my experience. For me the discomfort (anxiety, excessive self-consciousness, self-criticism) always starts first and lasts for maybe 15-20 minutes; then it opens out into a lucid but dream-drenched state of mind with a lot of interesting thoughts and insights... eventually tapering off to normality (after the munchies).
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
Hmm.. that may be from the intensity of the A&P that's triggered. I've had uncomfortable A&Ps w/o drugs.

Is there ever euphoria or bliss?

Anyone else have experience with this?
John Wilde, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Droll Dedekind:
Hmm.. that may be from the intensity of the A&P that's triggered. I've had uncomfortable A&Ps w/o drugs.

Is there ever euphoria or bliss?


Yes, there is... but it's always after that initial phase of discomfort. And for me there's no DN-type hangover following the happy/creative phase. Once I get there, I stay there, and it just fades out gradually.

Maybe that's my version of EQ? Maybe I get a very brief energy surge (A&P), quickly followed by somewhat longer DN phase (anxious, self-conscious), followed by a much longer and more enjoyable (happy, creative, insightful) EQ phase. That's one way I could squeeze it into the Progress of Insight model... but maybe a bit of an awkward fit.

But I think some of it may be stage dependent, and probably also varies with the type/quality of weed. When I first started smoking as a teenager, the initial onset was always euphoric / blissful; a kind of dreamy backwash coming over everything, and everything seeming funny and exaggerated and cartoon-like. But no DN-like episodes in those early days either.
John Wilde, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
If I were to forget about models and explain it my way, it'd go like this:

-- Initial rush of altered body chemistry produces fear, vulnerability, anxiety.
-- This induces and feeds negative thoughts; feelings of vulnerability, inferiority, unwanted exposure.
-- I gradually get accustomed to this, and take the altered experience less personally, more equanimity toward it.
-- I relax into it, and open up enough to enjoy the altered aspects more fully -- the dreamlike nature of experience, greater sensory and emotional sensitivity, heightened aesthetic sense, enhanced visualisation abilities, better appreciation of music, patterns, etc; altered cognitive function, lots of interesting reflection going on.
-- Whole thing gradually fades away.
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
Droll Dedekind:
Hmm.. that may be from the intensity of the A&P that's triggered. I've had uncomfortable A&Ps w/o drugs.

Is there ever euphoria or bliss?


Yes, there is... but it's always after that initial phase of discomfort. And for me there's no DN-type hangover following the happy/creative phase. Once I get there, I stay there, and it just fades out gradually.

Maybe that's my version of EQ? Maybe I get a very brief energy surge (A&P), quickly followed by somewhat longer DN phase (anxious, self-conscious), followed by a much longer and more enjoyable (happy, creative, insightful) EQ phase. That's one way I could squeeze it into the Progress of Insight model... but maybe a bit of an awkward fit.

But I think some of it may be stage dependent, and probably also varies with the type/quality of weed. When I first started smoking as a teenager, the initial onset was always euphoric / blissful; a kind of dreamy backwash coming over everything, and everything seeming funny and exaggerated and cartoon-like. But no DN-like episodes in those early days either.

Your fit to the progress of insight model seems to match my experience. That brief A&P surge varies in length for me depending on 'where I'm at' on the maps at the time. And, the DN period doesn't always even out for me. Sometimes I'm stuck in what seems to be Misery and I just get sleepy.

Need moar data
C P M, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 219 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent Posts
Hi Droll
Your post got me thinking about this. I hadn't thought of experiences on pot as an A&P event. I rarely smoke any more. I enjoyed it's effects more when I was a teenager/young adult up until an experience that I mentioned in another post (more on that a bit later). 

Pot always seemed to have a more dramatic effect on me than my friends. My wife teases me by saying that I “see God”, or a bit more mockingly, that I'm like the“double rainbow guy”, in reference to the viral video (1). One example occurred over five years ago, before I started meditating, I was at a music concert, and it was a rare occasion that I did smoke. My description won't really capture it fully, or how powerful it felt, but listening to the music, I had the idea that the music was arising out of nothingness. I visualized the sound waves on an XY graph and I thought of the sound as temporary disturbances about the baseline of nothing, and understood it as returning back to nothing. I came to see the music, and the concert, as a beautiful celebration of the temporary manifestation of something out of nothing. An pondering about this idea some more, I thought of all existence as a beautiful but temporary distortion/manifestation of something out of nothingness. I was in awe at this realization and tears were streaming down my face.

These days, even though I don't smoke, I go through phases where I'm “double rain bowing” fairly frequently, sometimes daily, but it seems more integrated or healthy. I don't have any pronounced darknight states occurring, and it may be because I do mostly a concentration practice.

In relation to the experience that I mentioned in another post (2).   This occurred over thirty years ago when I ingested a much higher dose than planned. Prior to that, when drinking (or smoking), even though I could be very intoxicated, I would sometimes stop, and reflect on what was happening. I could see that even though various parts of my brain, or thoughts, were disrupted, there seemed to be a part of my brain that was just watching and was not impacted by the alcohol. I was an experienced pot smoker at the time, and did not have any apprehension towards the drug. But with the very high dose, at one point, it seemed that there was nothing left of me.  That there was nothing free from the effect of the drug. This terrified me. It seemed that the idea of me was a lot more fragile than I thought, and in fact, could fairly easily be obliterated. Looking back, I see the experience as an unhealthy glimpse of not-self.
(1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI
(2)
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4336242#_19_message_4344636
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
The double rainbowing bit was funny emoticon. I've had a few friends like that and I'm always envious emoticon

Since getting into meditation I've become increasingly sensitive to pot. In particular I'm now hyperaware of my body and emotions as energetic tastes. I've had some anxious, uncomfortable, ReOb-like times with pot but I believe these pushed my practice into new territory or at least purified something, which would seem to be consistent with an A&P event.

Lastly, there are some who will try to mix mind-altering substances and meditation. This can seem like an easy and fast path. In fact, there are countless traditions that use these as an integral part of their path. However, there are numerous strong warnings against doing this at all or against doing this without the guidance of those that really know what they are doing and when not in the proper setting (e.g. far out in the desert with no one around except a friend to keep you safe and no big cliffs or weapons nearby). I have found that simply doing really consistent insight or concentration practices well can quickly produce altered states and strange experiences that have taken me to the very brink of what I could handle skillfully and sometimes beyond, many of which I will discuss in Part III, so I don’t see the need for using mind altering substances. Further, there are reasons to learn to see things from different points of view on our own power so that these things may become a part of who and what we are rather than some transient side effect brought on by tinkering with our neurochemistry.

This should be kept in mind.. and probably warrants a whole thread

Another obvious correlation to include:
Couchlock = Dissolution?
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Chris J Macie, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 863 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Gerry V (2/17/15 6:30 PM as a reply to Droll Dedekind.)

The following not to put-down or discourage; just keep an eye on the ball, and come out the other end ok.

Gerry V
seems to agree with an emerging consensus affirmatively answering the question in the title of the thread, noting various experiences, and then:
"I also agree …. Smoking weed helped me be very aware of feelings I'd never noticed all throughout my body."

An alternative hypotheses: That marijuana, and mild psycho-kinetic substances in general, can amplify a wide range of experiences in individuals that is more related to the nature of whatever experiences the individual is likely to be experiencing anyway, due to conditioning and circumstance, rather than due to the psycho-kinetic agent itself.

Or: A&P, DN, EQ, etc. (or any variety of model or map in any domain) are all a function of the individual's sphere of attention, not of pot/weed per se, which simply enhances general awareness in some way, be it in terms of eating, listening to music, a revery in dew-drops on a leaf, or whatever.

Or, briefly: it's the person, not the pot.

As, for instance, in (C P M 2/22/15 1:47 PM as a reply to John Wilde.) :
"Pot always seemed to have a more dramatic effect on me than my friends."

This would seem to be MINDFULNESS 101 –"What is this?".

Or perhaps there's an attempt here at refining phenomenal description into phenomenological analysis that co-relates morphologies of experience with neurological research findings, say, comparing drug studies and meditation studies. (A modern-day version of the spatial/vertical citta-cetasika and temporal/horizontal condition-cause deconstruction perspectives in the abhidhamma literature?)

True, psychodelic experience can be seen as potentiating a sort of mental deconstruction (when it doesn't get blown away into dramatic psycho-emotional experiences due to some underlying instability).

If so, as Droll Dedekind (2/17/15 6:16 PM as a reply to John Wilde.) aptly put it:
"Need moar data" – maybe should have edited that later when not under-the-influence? emoticon

And not just data, but also sound experimental design and methodology.

Another angle, perhaps alluded to by Daniel (in the quotation Droll Dedekind cited, from MCTB1, digital version, p.116):  "…I don’t see the need for using mind altering substances…", which can be seen as paraphrase of the '5th (surāmeraya) 'Precept (sikkhāpada)'-- to abstain from using artificial influences that influence the mind.

Daniel's explanation resembles Karl-Heinz Stockhausen's (the notable German composer, particularly of electronic music), when he was in California back in the late 1960's and trying to teach composition students who thought they already knew it all from drug experiences (myself included): One doesn't have real knowledge and power unless one can do it on one's own, without artificial stimulus. He was echoing Western traditional wisdom, in musical matters, that mastery is won by 90-99% long and hard work (knowledge), and then 1-10% 'inspiration' (vision).

That's perhaps why in music, as in other areas like medicine or meditation, the crucial activity is called "practice". "Practice makes perfect." (German "Űbung macht Meister.") Or, from a medical professional after a long and successful career: "I've been doing it for 50+ years, but am still just practicing.")
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
 (German "Űbung macht Meister.") – maybe should have edited that later when not under-the-influence? emoticon


;)
Gerry V, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 131 Join Date: 3/19/14 Recent Posts
I agree with you.

When I first remember passing the A&P was after I had smoked some weed and done some meditation. After that, I tried to recreate the experience by smoking weed and meditating, but it never happened the way it happened that first time. After that, I basically became a huge pothead, smoking all day every day and continuing meditation as much as I was inclined to. I recently stopped as the anxiety I was getting was getting way too extreme, although I should've stopped smoking a long time before that.

So I definitely agree. To me, it sort've feels like it's the A&P when I first get high, that head rush where you can get super focused on something, then Dissolution when that ends manifests as just sitting on the couch eating chips and watching tv not giving a damn. Dissolution can also manifest as the difficulty to focus, as well as forgetfulness. The anxiety can be the Fear nana.

I also agree with the ability to perceive vibrations if by vibrations you mean bodily sensations. Smoking weed helped me be very aware of feelings I'd never noticed all throughout my body.
John Wilde, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Gerry V:

I also agree with the ability to perceive vibrations if by vibrations you mean bodily sensations. Smoking weed helped me be very aware of feelings I'd never noticed all throughout my body.


On that note, do you guys also experience swirling energies that aren't exactly in the body but aren't external phenomena either? (You're not going to mistake them for gusts of wind, but they're kind of like a psychic breeze, stuff that's made of feelings and dreams, swirling all around and through you). That's one of the main effects I get from pot; it's like a flow of dream-like ectoplasmy 'stuff' becoming manifest in a way that it usually isn't.
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Droll Dedekind, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 634 Join Date: 11/15/13 Recent Posts
Yes I've experienced what seems to be a splash of droplets or a gust of wind, etc. They don't apparently originate from the body. I've experienced it in meditation and out of meditation with pot, at social gatherings where it's really surprised me.

My sense of space does also seem to swirl, vibrate, dance etc with pot
Sleeping Buddha Syndrome, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 882 Join Date: 12/4/11 Recent Posts
Droll Dedekind:
IME smoking pot causes 'energetic' phenomena and euphoria shortly after smoking. It's always followed by the DN. It would seem that pot consistently triggers a mild A&P event.

Potheads = A&P junkies?
Pot paranoia = stuck in Fear nana?

In Prometheus Rising, Robert Anton Wilson associates pot with the 5th circuit of Leary's Eight Circuit model -- neurosomatic circuit. The description seems to match mild A&P events.

Holistic bodily awareness seems to me to relate to the ability to perceive vibrations.

I think you can cross the a and p doing (smoking?) almost anything. It's interesting now that I have done it a few times I am actually more interested in staying in the lower nañas as long as possible. I think it is something about the stability that I cherish. Mind and body equals sane stability with lots of options.
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tom moylan, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
i am of the opinion that each persons' brain chemical makeup differs subtly from everyone elses.  while patterns can be general they are not applicable in every case.

most people toke and relax, when i toke i am thrown into a self-critical paranoid and very negative spiral.

i think its a stretch, at least for me, to correlate the "wave" of the THC rush to the stages of insight.  i think one can look at any unstable system and see sinusoidal or at least dynamic movement but that doesn't mean that they are the same things.
Alexander Rice, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 36 Join Date: 2/20/15 Recent Posts
I've done a good deal of experimenting with lots of different things and don't think that there is a simple relationship between any drug and a particular 'state' eg. A&P. Drugs alter the process, but the outcome depends on the conditioning of the mind.

For me cannabis has two effects main effects on attention that oppose each other in paradoxical ways. If you understand what it's doing you can still make good use of it.

1) It strengthens concentration and if you get properly absorbed in something you can go very deep.
2) It shortens attention span dramatically and makes it harder to choose what you're paying attention to. You become very distractible.

This paradox is why it can affect people so differently. 

If you're like me and you usually put far too much effort into actively directing your attention but have OK insight then it can be a huge help. Normally you're so set on directing attention conciously that you actually get in the way of experiencing jhana naturally. On cannabis your attention is kept busy dealing with the increased level of distractions which keeps a part of the mind occupied with staying on the object of your choosing and stops it getting in the way of jana.. and then you pop into jhana really easily. I become super productive and generally fun to be around but I have to manage my attention very carefully.

Conversely if you have strong concentration already but aren't that good at actively directing it (or don't realise that's what you need to do) then it can be a hindrance -- you get 'locked on' to something pretty much at random and then can't pry your mind free of it again. A negative thought pops up, you get locked on to it and voila... paranoia and general horridness. This is basically how psychosis works which explains why is can exacerbate psychotic symptoms.

If you're the first kind of person and cannabis works well for you then it suggests that you need to do more work on understanding how to get into jhana naturally, do some candle flame kasina stuff (preferably while high) and read Ken Folks 'chicken herding' article. You're probably getting in your own way by trying too hard and in the wrong way and a few tweaks to technique are needed.

If you're the second kind of person then you'd benefit from controlling your mental and physical environment more carefully in the 30m or so immediately after dosing. You need to choose what you get locked on to. Candle flame / music / quiet room etc. and be ready to break down any difficult sensations as they arise. Once you're locked onto one of the jhanas it should be quite deep and stable and then you can go interact with the rest of the world.

It's also strongly dose dependant. If you take too much you'll loose the ability to use it effectively regardless, and it takes at least 10m for the effects to fully develop even if you inhale it. An awful lot of people keep toking until they 'feel high' by which point they've probably taken too much. Take a little bit, wait 10m and if that's not enough have a little more.
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Don Merchant, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: Pot an A&P drug?

Posts: 202 Join Date: 6/9/15 Recent Posts
Droll Dedekind,

I would like to ask which strain of "pot" you are mainly referring to? I've found through research that there are at least 2 main strains - Sativa, and Indica.
Each has its own particular characteristics. That doesn't even get into all the hybrids out there now. Besides, there are strains from both sides that are low in THC but high in CBD's for medical use. Just wondering?