Fast thinking & slow thinking

Mark, modificat fa 9 anys at 27/02/15 02:34
Created 9 anys ago at 27/02/15 02:34

Fast thinking & slow thinking

Apunts: 550 Data d'incorporació: 24/07/14 Publicacions recents
A 1hr lecture on a popular book by a leading psychologist, Daniel Kahneman

https://soundcloud.com/longnow/thinking-fast-and-slow

Would be great to hear some interpretations of your path in relation to this.

It seems mindfulness could be a way of injecting appropriate doubt into system 1 options. 

If some forms of meditation disengage system 2, this might explain why peolpe with great attainments sometimes behave independently of that.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modificat fa 9 anys at 27/02/15 10:07
Created 9 anys ago at 27/02/15 10:04

RE: Fast thinking & slow thinking

Apunts: 1740 Data d'incorporació: 01/10/11 Publicacions recents
First, I would like to say that dual model systems are simplistic with the goal being to reduce limitless actuality (plural objects, multiplicity) into a binary frame, which binary frame is the realm of choice-making: this and not that, this and not those.

So in Kahneman, symbolic System 1, sometimes called intuitive and hard to change ("inert"), is binary as it's defined around how action is taken. And symbolic System 2, sometimes deemed studied ("volatile"), also is binary, as it too is concerned with how action is taken.

These are both, in fact, self-protective systems of choices: the difference in choice-making is time, observation, and deliberation of choice-making. Kahneman is pointing out effects of these symbolic systems of fast or slow choice-making. [1]

Mindfulness, if we take a Kabat-Zinn definition, is "moment-to-moment, non-judgmental awareness" (Google, 2007, youtube). Anālayo also writes this about "sati" (which Pāli word is commonly translated as "mindfulness" in English), from Sattipathana, The Direct Path to Realization:
Anālayo:

"Thus, although sati furnishes the necessary information for a wise deployment of right effort... sati nevertheless remains an aloof quality of uninvolved, detached observation. (...) Some refer to this non-reactive feature of sati as "choiceless" awareness. [footnote 61 cites: Brown, 1986b, p. 167; Engler, 1983, p. 127; Epstein, 1984, p. 196; Goldstein, 1985, p. 19; Kornfield, 1977, p. 12; Levine, 1989, p.28; Sūjiva, 2000, p. 102]. "Choiceless" in the sense that with such awareness one remains impartially aware, without reacting with likes or dislikes."
Mark:

Would be great to hear some interpretations of your path in relation to this.

It seems mindfulness could be a way of injecting appropriate doubt into system 1 options. 

If some forms of meditation disengage system 2, this might explain why peolpe with great attainments sometimes behave independently of that

Multiplicity, plural objects, is the terrain of mindfulness.

Though as a rationalized choice for well-being, mindfulness in that moment of deliberate choice, is action of a symbolic System 2. (This concerns not infants, who may meet the definition of mindfulness in a symbolic System 1 sense and during the time immediately following birth and preceding habituation of feeding and care).

To step away from the symbolic systems and consider physiology (unless one considers the body symbolic, too), then mindfulness (developing a mind non-judgementally aware of plural objects (multiplicities of feelings, thoughts, sensations) is also shown to affect parasympathetic "choices" of the body, such as rate of breath and blood pressure (such as the effect of lower blood pressure simply by choosing non-judgemental awareness of objects). Mindfulness is there, too, non-controlling, non-choosing: Sweaty palms? Okay, sweaty palms.

So mindfulness begins as a specific training as a choice in the symbolic System 2 family. In buddhism, notions of release/final release/full awakening/enlightenment-- these notions suggest the mind is without suffering if equanimous, and some buddhist traditions train that this equanimity is inherent. [2]

What do you think?

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[1] To go to page 35 at the beginning of "Thinking, Fast and Slow" (first ed., paperback, FSG), top two paragraphs, the two systems are described in their practical implications: System 2 activity follows directions in response to mental overload, a parallel to the electrical circuitry of a house is made. Whereas System 1 is defined as the terrain of self-protective actions and the example of being in a car accident is given: "You will find you have responded to the threat before you became fully aware of it."

[2] Pali tradition (Malunkyaputta Sutta) "Not impassioned with ideas, knowing an idea with mindfulness firm — dispassioned in mind, one knows and doesn't remain fastened there. While one is knowing an idea — and even experiencing feeling — it falls away and doesn't accumulate. Thus one fares mindfully. Thus not amassing stress, one is said to be in the presence of Unbinding; Zen/Chan tradition: "What difference is there in our Buddha nature?" ~ Hui Neng, and "The so-called "clear mind" refers to the pure mind devoid of passions," Shen-yen on the Platform lesson of Hui Neng]; "And inspire me that with mindfulness and alertness, born from thoughts ultimately pure (...) the ways leading to personal liberation,"~ The man from Onion Valley in the foundation of all good qualities (ca. 1400s).

[edit x1: typos]
Mark, modificat fa 9 anys at 27/02/15 10:51
Created 9 anys ago at 27/02/15 10:51

RE: Fast thinking & slow thinking

Apunts: 550 Data d'incorporació: 24/07/14 Publicacions recents
Hi Katy,

I've not read the book - just listened to that lecture. The appraoch is certainly reductionist. It is one way of looking at things I don't think you, Kahneman or I beleive it is a complete explanation. You no doubt know the concept of three poisons - a simplification for sure but they can lead to insights too.

One of the examples he gives questions that binary idea of "this or that".  Often may not be the way humans function. If system 1 proposes only 1 option then a lot of the time system 2 will just assume it i.e. the option of "that" or "not this" does not exist in those cases. It seems to explain a lot of weird behavior people see in themselves and others.

I'm not sure what you mean by action - I'm assuming you mean anything that results in a change observable to a 3rd party.

Based on the explanation you took from the book it seems he has become a lot better at explaining the concept simply. In the lecture he gives the exmaple of 2+2 bing system 1 thinking whereas 13 x 14 engages system 2 thinking. System 1 is associative memory while system 2   can include deduction, procedures etc.

I've noticed that mindfulness can make me aware of reactions (system 1 for Kahneman) sometimes before they become actions.

The conscious act of bringing attention to observation seems like a training of system 2 - less time in autopilot.

I'm not sure mindfulness needs to only be "aware of plural objects". For example noting, or focusing on one sensation seem valid methods too. 
 
Mindfulness itself may be about observing but the act of observing can radically change behavior. So I'm not sure you can really have "non-controlling, non-choosing" mindfulness because it is a choice to be mindful and that is a cause which will have an effect.

It is imaginable that system 2 could be changed radically so there is no conscious experience of choice - action just flows naturally (that is the impression system 1 gives). Kahneman raises valid concerns about why that would be a bad thing.

In this thread I'd be more interested in exploring the path from a perspective of Kahneman's model. Rather than questioning the validity of his model. I consider it a perspective that might lead to some insights. It is not the only perspective but it does not offer any value if it is invalidated in favor of another model.

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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modificat fa 9 anys at 27/02/15 12:36
Created 9 anys ago at 27/02/15 12:35

RE: Fast thinking & slow thinking

Apunts: 1740 Data d'incorporació: 01/10/11 Publicacions recents
Mark:
Hi Katy,

(...)

In this thread I'd be more interested in exploring the path from a perspective of Kahneman's model. Rather than questioning the validity of his model. I consider it a perspective that might lead to some insights. It is not the only perspective but it does not offer any value if it is invalidated in favor of another model.

This part I like emoticon 

Models are art, can be ridiculous: like how detailed and scaled a map do we need before we basically have the complete terrain of an area mapped, then bigger?

But maps give local, pratical value and I really like that you like this one, feel you can practically use it. 

[A point: to be clear, I did not suggest his idea is invalid or valid; I'm not sure what it takes for me to consider something invalid/valid outside of local, practical applications. So his proposal can be valide to me (cannot be absolutely falisified, could be falsified for another local and practical investigation-application).]

Best wishes!

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