Just come off a long Mahasi retreat in Burma...

I have a question though which comes from the maps and something Sayadaw U Pandita said in one of his talks:

He said that it is not until a Yogi experiences the very fast arising and passing away of phenomena (in Pali termed Udaya-baya-nana) that they become sufficiently interested in the practice and develop enough faith to keep on "powering ahead" till they reach the goal. ie SE.

However, if I look at that map, specifically typical physical & mental manifestations, I can relate to many from 3.1 (3characteristics) [such as tension/pain in back, shoulders, twisting, strong shaking, disconcerting thoughts]
through the 4s A&P [fine shaking, very little pain, fear, anticipation, extremely bright white lights very common] to even 5.1 dissolution  (Bhanga Nana)[extreme hunger - food obsession thoughts, restlessness, irritation, frustration, exhaustion] yet certainly I never witnessed any fast A&P event.

My intellectual understanding being of a state with incredibly fast flickering/buzzing/subtly throbbing sensations.

So, wondering why the disparity?

And BTW, is A&P pleasant, neutral or even unpleasant or a mixture or does it vary person to person?

Hi, Piers. Welcome back! I hope you'll revive your Fire Kasina thread.

Umm, I'm not sure I understand your question. You refer to a fast A&P "Event"? I'm not sure what that means in terms of being fast. My A&P Events are generally lucid dreams. Not all involve anything "fast." Some do, like kaleidoscopic sifting of colors. I do see/hear/feel fast vibrations throughout the phase, but not especially for the Event itself. BTW, I don't always seem to have or remember an Event. It might just be a phase.

Why are you asking the question? You seem to have a lot of interest in enlightenment, so it doesn't seem that you have anything to worry about in this regard. But maybe I'm not understanding.

Hi Jenny and thanks for the welcome back. Glad to see you're still around. You were teetering on the brink of departure from DhO just before I left... Or maybe you did leave and came back?

Anyways, I used the word "event" but...semantics... limitations of language. "Experience" might be a better word. I've had A&P experiences off retreat a few times I think...assuming they were A&P. Also, as I listed in the post I've many experiences symptomatic of A&P

But I'm not referring to any of that. I'm talking about a bodily feeling, rapid sensations "flowing" (choose another word you prefer) at a rate too fast to note with words. Bare awareness is all that's required at this stage.
Daniel says in previous thread "...your mind can go much faster than noting, which is slow and clunky, and drop to perceiving anything buzzing, vibrating, pulsing, all the way up and down the breath and in whatever else happens..."

Sayadaw U Pandita also refers to this perception of rapidly "flickering" sensations.

I'm asking question because of the disparity in my experience and outline in the maps. I think I shouldn't take those maps so literally like in an ABC way... clearly they're just guidelines and there is scope for variance.


Fire Kasina...yeah, haven't had a chance to practice any of that of late....

I think it's possible much of the time for a deeper part of your awareness to be doing the observing and investigating with your consciousness being a step or two behind.  If you moved through an A&P without seeing what you expected to see, then maybe that's because a deeper level of awareness saw what it needed to see, developed insight, and moved on.

After moving through the ñanas quite a number of times, I can attest that it's something that my mind just does when I provide the right conditions.  I don't consiously think about arising and passing during the 4th ñana, or about re-observing during the 10th.  I just leave that stuff up to my unconsious and hang on for the ride.

-T

Hi Teague,

And what about any experience of fast arising & passing of bodily sensations. Do you have that or have you had that?

I'm still asking the same question because it's not being addressed.

And I keep asking it because wondering if I'm waiting for something I needn't.

Or maybe it's because I used to practice in Goenka tradition and bodily sensations are the ONLY phenomena they give emphasis to...

Piers,

Hmm. I probably cannot answer the question, Why the disparity? I definitely do and did see, feel, and hear very fast vibratory/flickering. Is that what you are saying--that you've not ever noticed the fast, fine vibratory sensations?

Maybe someone who hasn't experienced them, either, but did power through is a better person to try to make sense of this.

Have you posted elsewhere about the retreat in general?

I feel like you've answered your own question here. If you're looking for a map point to fit your experience, or your experience to fit on the map, I'm sure it can/will happen if you want it to badly enough.

Did you bring your question up during your interviews while on the retreat and what were the replies from the teacher(s)? If you didn't ask, why not?

Yes, I feel I answered my own question too in the end. Sometimes you need a bit of Q&A to bring it out.

Hmm...struggling to recall. I was in a funny headspace towards end of retreat. Don't think that the question was so prominent
whilst I was there... I'm going on another retreat in April. One of my teachers will be there (actually he's the main reason I'm going). So, if it's still bugging me then I'll ask him.

That's exactly my point: I've not ever noticed the fast, fine vibratory sensations and that's what everyone seems to be saying happens during A&P yet I've experienced various A&P phenomena as already described.

I posted a "retreat report" over on AN site having just signed up. Seems there's a fair degree of crossover between members there and here at DhO.

Oh, well, I'm not on AN anymore. If you are inclined to cross-post it here on the DhO, I'd be interested in reading it.

Sorry for not directly answering your question. I have indeed felt fast arising and passing of body sensations. As I sit here, I can focus on the tip of my finger and feel the fine flickering of very small sensations arising and passing with great rapidity (insert subtle nod to Goenka), and these are exactly some of the sensations people talk about when the talk about A&P experiences. The difference is that during the A&P, these might become much more apparent and on many or all parts of the body. Another difference is that during the A&P, it seems that your mind apprehends these sensations in a unique way that leads to insight.

Just like Goenka says in the retreats, we're always looking for something special, but it's often times the rather ordinary experiences that can be so enlightening. Just take a moment and consider the tingling sensation in the tip of your finger (I'm presuming that most people can feel this is they take a few moments to concentrate). What you're doing is FEELING the quantum process of the universe, arising and passing away moment after moment in a single point of space. I mean, isn’t that Amazing!

I’ve found that it helps only somewhat to break down or try to make sense of certain experiences, but mostly it seems like you’re mind just figures these things out on it’s own when you provide the right conditions and give it the right nudges from time to time.

-T

Alright then... http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5694154

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