Hi everyone. I'm new here and I decided to first post on the practice logs thread as it seems a very effective way to interract on such site where we are all dedicated to awakening in this life and support each other along the way.

For a little intro into my practice path:
I began practicing in 1998, through local Buddhist groups. From 1999 to 2000 I was in the Goenka tradition but switched to the Mahasi style in 2000. My honeymoon with this lineage is still going on! I feel also inspired by the lesser known lineage, outside of Burma at least, of Mogok Sayadaw. The first teacher I met in Mahasi system was the late Sayadaw U Silananda. The one talk he gave in 2000 where I was was enough to make me devoted to that lineage. Most of my intensive retreats in the past (around 10 or more) were with Sayadaw Khippapanno and U Aggasami from this same lineage. They were and still are very helpful but I see them only once a year, if I'm lucky! Recently, being inspired by a friend who made impressive progress with the help of Kenneth Folk, I began having sessions with that teacher. I've read his book draft "Contemplative Fitness" and also Daniel Ingram's MCTB. These books are a breath of fresh air on the Western Buddhist scene! They gave me a boost of inspiration to work toward awakening.

Practice log.
I practice anapanasati, focusing on the touch sensations of the breath at the nostril area and bellow, noting the sensations and everything that arises predominantly at the six sense doors. I usually feel, unless very tired, a rather quick settling into a sense of bodily stillness that can last up to an hour or more, with very little movements of the body.
Things I note: Coolness (on an inbreath as the breath feels cool), touching or softness (on an out-breath as it feels this way). Sometimes the out-breath feels like a series of to to three of four quick successive touching sensations. Often feel quick vibrations under the nose.
Other objects: stillness, hearing, subtle anxiety, sensing (all types of body sensations such as stabbing, itching, etc), thinking, imaging thought, fear, focusing, sleepy, discouraged (usually during my annual four days retreat when I get stucked in mental and physical fatigue), desire (for progress or awakening), sense desire, smelling, intending, tightness, tranquilizing/relaxing, hoping (for awakening), urgency (to get awakened), disappointed (that not yet awakened), recollecting (a stream of thoughts that just went unnoticed), heat, cold, gathering (saliva), swallowing, happy, Dhamma thoughts.

Well, that's it for now. Metta and gratitude to all on this website.

Ben

Hi, Benoit. Great to see you over here.

Jack

Hi Jack it's nice to see you again! What a surprise! :-)

I've experimented with something a bit new lately, that I discovered, and I thought I'd share. It is a labeling exercise that helps with mind contemplation, cittanupassana. More precisely, it is to see the activity of focusing on an object. When we focus on an object, there is the object and the mind noting the object. This exercise helps see that. Basically, I use the same label over and over again for the duration of the entire exercise. The label is: "Focusing on this."

So when I focus on an in-breath I note "Focusing on this." When focusing on the out-breath, it is a new activity (not the same mind that arises but a new mind. I note "focusing on this." If an ich arises and the mind goes to it, "focusing on this." If an emotion arises and the mind goes to it, "focusing on this." Back to the breath, "focusing on this."


When objects start to manifest more quickly one after another, I simply start using the note "focusing".


Basically this exercise is meant to start to see the activity of the mind itself during meditation. I've had glimpses of how quickly one mintal state is replaced by another using this method. I also find it keeps the mind busy so there is little room for mind wandering.

Something subtly different than before occured last night in my sitting. The vibrations and rapid pulses I feel at the spot under the nose were matched with vibrations in my hands. In other words occuring in the hands as well. It is not the first time I feel tingling sensations in the hands as I meditate, but this time it was more pronounced. Before the tingling sensations were diffused and subtle. Now I could see more clearly the "poping in and out of existence" of individual sensations in the hands. So before there could be tingling sensations in the hands but no clear sense of each individual sensations passing away before other sensations arose.
Also, bubble-like sensations suddenly erupting on the side of the face, though this is something I've often experienced before.
On next June 21st I will go into a 7-days solitary meditation retreat in my home basement, meditating around 10 hours per day. I'll try to include a one-on-one session with Kenneth Folk, and a few back and forth noting with a Dhamma friend on Skype. I might record some log entries here during the retreat.
Metta,

Benoit

I've had a seven-day solitary retreat a few weeks ago and posted some of its aspects in the section "Diagnostic Clinic".
This entry is for my sitting this morning, which was a one hour sitting. I entered a state in which I could perceive a deep and spacious stillness within. Actually, spacious in the sense that it seemed to expand outside of my body as well. And I had the ability to quickly perceive subtle mental phenomena arising, such as reflections on my practice, expectations of awakening, intentions, etc. But also, curiously, I got to a point where it's as if the stillness co-existed with mental noise (thoughts arising). So there was mental activities of wandering thoughts, and I could also feel the stillness.

Following are a re-transcript of parts of a thread of my in Diagnostic Clinic which I'm re-copying here:



2. A reccurent experience since practicing vipassana has been during sleep. I'm lying on my back and asleep yet fully aware of intense rushing vibrations all over the body, shooting at different places in the body with furious force. Yet I am very mindful of these vibrations. I purposely apply mindfulness continuously to them and maintain equanimity. The vibrations are not blissful at all like it is often described in A&P. What is strange and difficult to explain is that all this happens while I sleep.

3. I reccurently dream that I'm meditating but it is hard to keep stability in my body while meditating. My body keeps slipping off the cushion or falling on the side. Sometimes in the dream people come and bother me. Other times I just have an intense desire to meditate in the dream. I'm also a psychoanalytic therapist in training as well as studying Jung so dream stuff has an appeal to me personally.

4. During formal meditation practice (I'm just fresh out of a retreat  now so this is fresh stuff) I would at times have areas in my body (most often the facial area) where quick champain bubble-like sensations would be felt, or sometimes quite intense vibrations in the face (different than the champain bubbles due to the rapidity of it). The curious thing is that these experiences occur mostly in the face, with only an occasional jab of one rapid sensation elsewhere in the body. No bliss but quite concentrated. Even more curious is that these experiences can co-exist with solid pains elsewhere in the body. It's as if third nana stuff are co-exixting with higher ones. It's not clear-cut. Now that I'm writing this I'm thinking perhaps next time I should pay more attention to see if they really co-exist or rather alternate.

5. This one is quite subtle and more rare. I've succeeded to attain it spontaneously though after applying an instruction from Kenneth in this retreat: making my awareness more panoramic instead of localised. I would feel a stillness in my mind. And when objects would arrise I would perceive a subtle intention to "leap" toward them, as if the mind wants to go out and mingle with them, but not letting it do that. So the lleaps would be stopped in their track. I simultaneously feel like I (not even sure if it"s "I" really) don't want to let the mind leap towards objects. In other words, the mind becomes inclined toward stopping to leap toward objects. There can still be pains in the body while this happens. And concentration, though getting deeper here, can still break apart so it's not rock solid.

Another thing that occured in that retreat, in one of the last days, is I felt a mounting pressure behind my nose which rose upward toward the head, to finally dissolve into wave-like sensations accross the foreheadand and side of the forehead. It then stoped and I was then strangely and suddenly "afraid" that some sudden "chakra/kundalini-like" experience would burst through the top of my head, but it didn't. I'm not into reading of paying attention to chakra or kundalini stuff and know little about those topics, but suddenly I was "concerned" about those.

I was going to write a new experience but first, I just realized reading point 5 in one of my posts above in this thread that it misses some elements. I said when I get in this state the mind loses interest in leaping toward objects. This is not a false description. But what it really feels like is that the mind loses interet in creating anything. Not sure if this makes sense to any reader, but that's the best way I can describe it. Not only does it lose interest in creating anything, there is a feeling of interest in falling into a void where there are no arising objects. It's as if there are objects (mind and body phenomena), but the mind is interested in the void in between each arising.
The longer I'm away from my last retreat, the least often this state manifests though. Nevertheless, a new experience for me lately, which happened only twice, is a feeling of quick flashes in my "third eye" area, between the brows. It's as if a light was swithched on and off very quickly. But when it happened I wondered if it was only the light of the candles in the room in front of me that was doing this. Not sure.

Thanks Jack. The exercise you describe makes me realize the stillness is just another phenomena to disembed from!

Benoit

Right. I also find that iit is easy to concretize stillness, something to avoid.

For the last few weeks I've noticed a curious strong but pleasant heat sensation that arises in my left hand (mostly left thumb) when I meditate. When I inspect/note/observe it, it slowly vanishes. The bubbling sensations that arise in my face are becoming a daily experience, even when I don't meditate. I can be just listening to someone attentively and the bubbling sensations will start popping up in my face. I've also noticed a correlation between the way I pay attention and the appearance of the bubbling sensations. If I direct my attention to any one sensation, that itself can provoke the bubbling sensations to arise. Just writing about this, bubbling sensations arise in my face right now.

Something new, somewhat, has happened in my meditation today. First, I've increased my daily meditation: 30 to 45 minutes sit in the morning and 30 minutes during lunch hour at work. The following happened today in my lunch hour meditation.
I was observing, noting, sensations at the anapana spot. Pulses coming and going, in addition to the touch sensations of the breath coming in and out. I was quite concentrated, so present that I was not expecting the next breath. When the next breath would come it would "surprise" me. As I was watching all these sensations I became interested in watching the "observer". For a few successive moments I saw how each act of "observing" quickly vanished with the sensation it "observed."  I put the word "observe" between brakets for the following reason. I had the reflection that the act of observing was not really an act of awareness. It was just another thought that thinks it is aware of an object.
In any case, after a very few moments of watching the "observing" thoughts, a huge flash of blue light appeared then disappeared quickly, at the level between my brows, with eyes closed.

I got puzzled after this. Anyways, I tried to reproduce the experience by looking for the "observer" again. What I got then is a few flickers at the level of the "third eye" again, between the brows.

I also got overly excited about it and this sort of spoiled the experience. Another unexpected spoiler was a sudden thought of past misdeeds and the feeling of "who the hell do you think you are thinking you can gain awakening with those misdeeds you've done?" Now I can already hear the "make those so-called spoilers experiences to objectify and disembed from", which is what I plan to do :-)

The quick shakings/flickers behind the "third eye" is not new but the blue light was.

Just finished a seven-day intensive practice at home, putting 8 to 9 hours of meditation per day. Most of the sits was dealing with physical pain, which I see as related to the simple fact of long sittings (one hour) without changing posture. Throughout the retreat I got many occasional moments where I would feel rapid vibrations in the face or somewhat inside/behind the face. On the sixth day I sat in my bed in meditation, and I barely had the time to bring my attention to the anapana spot (under my nose) before I experienced rapid and continuous wave-like changes all over my face, which eventually spread inside my head. It was as if my face and inside my skull were massaged by these wave-like continuous sensations. I've had similar experiences before but not that long lasting and as clear as this time. For the seventh day, this did not occur again. More like a regular day just trying to be mindful during meditation.

I haven't posted in a while. What's new in meditation land is frequently I experience pulses inside my head, sometimes behind the two brows and more often deeper inside toward my crown. Sometimes the pulses are very rapid. Kind of like a light bulb that's about to die and it lights on and off real fast. This usually happens when I'm quite concentrated, and focus on subtle mental phenomena. 

The pulses inside my head is becoming a daily occurence in my meditation. It usually happens when there's a lot of stillness. Sometimes it's very fast and, for lack of better word, "violent". Kind of like a loose window shaking violently when strong winds strike against it. Or like the noise and feel of a misaligned bicycle chain that keeps almost falling off the teeth of the apparatus (don't know how it's called) on which it is placed while trying to drive the bicycle, except in fastforward mode. These "violent" vibrations usually last barely a second. They can come a few times in a sit, usually early in the sit. My mind is quite ok with these vibrations.

Sometimes they can happen as I focus on the touch sensations of the breath bellow the nostrils. It's as if the sensation provokes a series or river of sensations, starting under the nose and reaching behind the forehead. 

After these there will usually be a period of stillness in which there is a combination of curiosity about the "observer" or rather acts of observing, curiosity about "awareness", a sense I don't want to get up from the meditation (I can stay sit withough moving for over an hour and feel I'm just beginning and don't want to get up), but also a frustrating slippery aspect where wandering thoughts still emerge.

Sounds really good Ben. See if you can accept the slippery aspect, that's normal and not a problem to fix. And also see if you can notice what comes between the gusts of wind, teeth of the gear, vibrations, third eye flickers, etc. In other words, it is obvious how these things "hit" but what is there in the gap between the "hits"? 

Basically nibbana is in the spaces but the mind doesn't know how to find it. Eventually it will grab onto nibbana and that's stream entry.

The other thing you can do is really drench yourself in any stilness or jhana that shows up. It has a way of conditioning the mind. Sometimes people will want to "vipassina-ize" experience too much. The other side of the spectrum is called for now: delicious non-judgmental and non-analytical initimacy with what is occuring. Your mind already is "insightful" enough, that's why you are getting the vibrations, now you need to relax, enjoy, and let your mind let go of its life-long tendency to grab objects and instead let it grab onto nothing/nibbana.

Keep going! It sounds very promising.

Thanks Shargrol! That's encouraging!

Also, I've actually felt drawn a few times lately to focus more on the "stillness" aspect but everytime the "vipassanizing instinct" kicks in and takes over. So your advice makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks again. I appreciate. 

Kenneth Folk has a meditation he calls essence noting. I modified it slightly. Anything
that comes in through a sense door during this meditation, I note as
"accepting" and let it go. Separately, I become aware of the
stillness behind any phenomena that appears. I label this
"stillness". I equate this with being aware of awareness. Kenneth
labeled this "listening". I also put these two together and label it
"openness". That is, I become aware of both phenomena and stillness
together.
 
Sometimes while walking the dog, I will do the same meditation but without the noting.


.

Thanks for sharing Jack. And it will be nice to do this while I walk my dog too

I just finished a six days intensive practice in my home (7 to 8 hours of meditation per day and keeping the 8 precepts). I was shooting for stream-entry but it did not happen. 

I had tremendous amounts of fast vibrations as described above, very often. The vibrations were inside the head and often present also inside the chest. I often has the ability to trigger those vibrations at will, both on the cushion and outside formal meditation. Once or twice as the vibrations were happening, and as I was "inclining toward some void" (not sure how to desxcribe this), and feeling something big may be about to happen, this big fear would come up and pass quickly. 

All my sits were one hour without changing posture. In the last few days lots of physical pain would come up in the last 15 minutes of some sittings, mostly on the buttock from sitting long. 

In my last sit there was a very strong pressure against the crown of the head. At some point it was moving at different places around the top of the crown. And sometimes it would vibrate. I can still feel the pressure as I type those words, as my last sit ended 30 minutes ago.

I'm not sure where this all fits in the nanas. Maybe somewhere between Re-observation and high equanimity? The nice quick pulses and tinggles associated with A&P seem superficial compared to these vibratory phenomena, which occur around deeper concentration. 

Have you ever had this experience before? What was your strongest experience of A&P, reobservation, and high equanimity before this event?

Was the flow of vibrations neutral, pleasurable, or unpleasurable?

What where you noticing about the mind/body when you observed the vibrations?

What was the days/hours like leading up to the experience?

Sorry, this post is much longer than I thought it would. On to your questions:

I've had this experience before but for much shorter periods of time, like half a second then it would stop. (Ok, this is strange, as I just typed this I stoped and the vibrations came on). Anyways, in this retreat the middle of the head, or behind the face vibrations would come on very often during a single sit. On and off, on and off, on and off, and so on. Once I was reading during the retreat of an awakening account and that was enough to trigger the vibrations. 

Strongest A&P. I'm not sure which would classify as strongest but here's a few memorable ones that seems linke  A&P. About 20 years ago, doing a taoist meditation (similar to mindfulness) I had two successive sensations of "huge exlosion", one at the heart level followed quickly by one at the "third eye" level. The one at the third eye was accompanied by an explosion of bright white light flash at this very spot. I was stunned and could not make sense of the experience. I remember the one at third eye was like being punched, but without the pain. I had a third eye big flash of light (blue this time) while meditating about a year ago again. These are the only times I've seen light.

About 17 years ago I remember doing mindfelness of breathing and suddenly I saw three successive thoughts come and go as if I was standing outside of them. One thought woud come, be noticed immediately, vanish into the arising of a second thought movement, also noticed, vanished into a third thought movement. I was like looking at a water fall. It sounds mundane but I was much more stunned and impressed by this event than the "explosions" mentioned earlier. In the weeks that followed I felt anxious in meditation, like something was wrong with my life. 

Two years ago I began occasionally skyping with Kenneth Folk. I learned better to identify nanas but it's still not clear cut to me. A&P has been identified like this lately: I sit and quickly settle into a sense of ease, even well-being accompanied by quick little pulses under the nose (primary object) and mostly side of the face, sometimes with a quick tinggle on the foot or hand, also in the context of feeling happy. I feel quite mindful when this happens. But I've never had huge ecstatic experiences, religious experiences of "union", or any such dramatic events in A&P.

For re-observation, that's difficult for me to identify. The reason I stoped intensive residential retreats in Mahasi centers and the like was because of intense depressive feelings that would be trigerred. Doing it at home prevents the depressive feelings. I never really quite acertained to myself if these were re-observation related or just personal issues/trauma being triggered in the iosolated environment of retreat centers. The last residential one was at IMS in 2006. I was able to observe more the depressive feelings and really being focused on them. They were experienced as intense burning in the chest, very rapidly changing sensations of intense heat, like a raging fire, but my mind was equanimous. Eventually the heat became like a stable beam, like a sun in the middle of my chest. The heat was associated with the depressed feelings but experienced with much concentration and equanimity.

I've also had restless sits with lots of pains in my home retreats, like my mind wants to jump out of my skin. Once I learned to make my mindfulness paronamic, I think that's when I began experiencing equanimity. A more spacious feeling in mind, and a sense of what "dispassion" ("viraga") could mean.

Strongest High equanimity before this retreat: Many sits where my body and mind feels very still, can sit for an hour without pain and feel I could go on more, as if one hour felt like 5 minutes. And what I would consider even stronger than this are the times where, in such still sits, a spacious feeling would be followed by quick vibrations in the middle of the head (a few inches behind third eye) and the feeling that something big is about to happen. That's the experience that occured over and over again in this last retreat.

These vibrations are neutral, often occuring around a sense of being focused on spaciousness, being quite concentrated. The first time it happened I was sitting in my car waiting for my wife in a parking lot. I was feeling a bit tired. I closed my eyes and my mind began spontaneously to meditate, and the following words spontaneously arose in mind: "dispationate toward all formations". Immediately after those words came I had my first experience of quick vibrations in the middle of the head.

So what I notice about body/mind when observing these vibrations is stillness and some kind of formlessness. 

The days leading up to the experience. Actually the first day of retreat I woke up with a headache which lasted two days. I wanted to observe the feelings so didn't take any tylenols or advils at first, but in the evening of the second day I took advils. The headache receded. Vibrations were felt in the first two days. After the headache receded that's when the vibrations in middle of the head were coming a lot more. Days 3-4-5 were especially noticeable. I have to say from day one it pretty much felt vibratory, except with lots of head pain the first two days.

In one sit, day 4 or 5 I think, I took care to really pay attention to the progress of experiences in a single sit. A quick settling into little A&P pulses (very mild A&P if it's A&P). Followed by some loss of concentration and tightness in chest. And eventually a sense of spaciousness concentration settling and at times followed by vibrations in the head. 

I appreciate your helpful questions. I feel I'll have to investigate more my experience with some of these questions.

My observation is that when people are close to stream entry, they often seem to go back and re-experience the earlier nanas with more clarity/insight/power. The discontinuous staccato aspect of A&P and the chainsaw chaotic vibration of Reobservation are very similar. But my hunch, also suggested by a lack of recent powerful A&P and the fact that you felt head raptures, is that you were accessing the width and breadth of A&P with high concentration. 

The tricky thing about retreat is everything is bigger and more dramatic and sometimes people can think that those are the kind of experiences that are required for Stream Entry. But actually, simple home practice, without a lot of fireworks also gets the the job done. So don't think you need this big event to make progress. 

And all of the above is just my hunch, so take it for what it's worth.

Thanks Shargrol,

When you say that simple home practice also gets the job done, in your opinion and experience could one or two sittings a day be enough? It will be a while before I can do another intensive home retreat like I just did. 

Benoit

Yes, I do think it can be enough. There are enough examples, in addition to my own experience.


The main thing is consistent daily practice and treating life like a retreat -- from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep stay aaware and intimate with your lived experience.


Retreat are great, especially for big openings, but interestingly the intensity of the retreat expereince and the pressure to get it done during short --- i.e. less than 100 day -- timeframe... well, let's just say it sometimes makes it hard to just simply enjoy the equanimous pleasure of the equanimity nana. But if you are able to do very simple, low-effort sits at home, it can take you there.

It is entirely possible. Try to feel that in your bones. If you don't think it's possible, then of course it won't happen. But "nothing" is always here, always right within the gap of individual sensations. It doesn't take much to settle down, minimize effort, let reality and awareness just be as it is, dwell in equanimity, let equanimity get loose and dreamy, let the distinction between observer and observed get blurry... and then drop into nibbana.

Very simple, just give yourself the opportunity for it to happen by consistent practice.

Very inspiring and useful. Thanks.

Nothing much new in my practice. Just some notes on recent practice. 1 day retreat last thursday at home. Uneventful. Felt down after that not progressing to SE. Noted "discouragement" a few times. 

This morning hade a 50 ish minutes sitting. Got quite still and noting subtle phenomena, little movements of mind. At one point (about 45 minutes into the sitting) intentionally inclining my mind to "dispassion" (i.e. just disinterest toward all that arises), then observed that very intention. Then experienced fast strobbing in the middle of the head (where the brain is), kinda like a light bulb going on and off, on and off, very quickly (but no visual sensations, more on the tactile side). Right after a feeling of fear came and pulled me back. Then a thought like "maybe I almost got SE". Then noting how sense of "I" jumped in quickly here. Got up a few minutes after.

Do some magick.  Faith > technique in high eq. 

"I bow down to the deeper subconscious." 

Thanks Noah. I get that your diagnosis is this was a high eq territory

Dropping technique seems to be a common advice here. Will do.. Thanks again!

By magick do you mean some kind of prayer? And then letting it do its work?

Bowing down to deeper subconscious to allow it to do its work?

Yeah, by doing magick, I mean 'some kind of prayer.'  This could mean affirmative prayer, traditional prayer, some kind of ritual involving esoteric symbolism & physical objects, dream incubation, etc - so the whole spectrum of intentional practices.  My experience was that the soup needed this ingredient of specifically surrendering to a force which was authentically (not just conceptually) deemed more powerful than myself.  It was like the goosebumps before a trust fall or going off a jump in extreme sports.  "Dropping technique" might not be enough, because the part of the mind that is still distrusting but 'out of sight' can still be at play.  That part of the mind (the inner child, the emotional wound, the whatever) needs to come into the light & also bow down for the lights to shut off (in many cases that I've seen with myself & acquaintances).  

My friend DreamWalker has a good, simple map to technical 1st & 2nd paths: Are you in EQ? No - get to EQ.  Yes - do some magick.  Repeat.

Hey benoit, love reading your log.

have some experiences that i can relate to yours.

also aiming at SE in home practice.

but i notice i have more of a DETACHED attitude towards SE. like " if it happens it happens, inf not no big deal " just continue practice and have no expectations.

Thanks for jumping in Alguidar. What I find great about noting practice is that this kind of attachment (to attainment) gets seen through when it arises Well at least during those times we are noting.

Wishing you success on your path.

Fwiw, the "if it happens, it happnes" element is a part of any magickal spell worth its weight (& also the reason why most don't work).  The hardest part is letting it go afterwards   Just wanted to plug that they aren't divergent schools of thought ("letting go" vs "spellcasting") but rather ingredients within a balanced practice.  Also that the right time for magick isn't in any particular nana, but rather any time you feel like connecting to the deeper part of your mind.

Thanks Noah,

Acutally I have a practice I do and learned from my retreats in the past with Mahasi-lineage monks: Everytime I do something good like a generous deed, I recite "may this be a condition for the realization of path and fruit in this very life."

Well this log entry is more about the difficulties of practicing while very depressed. Many times I have snapped myself out of depressive states by going into stillness in meditation (maybe equanimity) but this time even the motivation to meditate is low. Once on the cushion, my mind stays in depressive pain. I look at my house and feel complete desolation and loneliness even though I don't live alone. Same feeling everywhere I go. Sounds like a post-holiday depression since it started after the holidays ended, though I've never had that (post-holiday) before. I did pass the holidays very sick with the flu. 
My mind is invaded by thoughts about impermanence and death, and loved ones,  which bring tremendous pain.  

I used to love my house and now think of selling it. 

Personally, I have always had difficulty differentiating dhukkha nanas from depression. I always suspect the latter more than the former in my case. 

Noting the sensations of depression, it's like a fire burning in my chest. I feel far away from SE-oriented practice now. 

Sorry to hear this... but also not sorry because sometimes I swear these things are your inner intelligence trying to tell you something. I'm not trying to make light of it and I am definitely not saying "oh, just ignore your depression and keep practicing". Actually, more of the reverse. A lot of time depression/dukka nanas is tangled up with unconscious identification/pride... so I wouldn't be suprised if a month from now you are seeing something that you maybe have been overlooking or downplaying...

Being far away from SE oriented practice is probably the best place to be. The fantasy gone and left with where you really are and what your life is really like. The most important thing to ask your self is what do you really want from practice? Not quoting anybody about what practice will do, but what truly is your own motivation for practice?

Sometimes the best thing about practice is just that moment in time where you can sit with yourself, just as you are, and BE. No method, no progress, no change. Just a moment of rest from being somebody to just being...

Sometimes the best thing about practice is the intellectual curiousity that comes from being able to investigate our minds, so even the "malfunctioning" is actually interesting and still is an amazing functionality... what actually is this depression, how is it actually made, why do humans fall for it...

Sometimes it's the mini releases that come from putting attention on resistance, how things start creaking and popping and releasing when you bathe it with awareness...

Sometimes it's the psychological insights into clinging that are so engaging. Ah, this is how I take an idea and a sensation and create a emotional mood, which creates a psychological context that reinforces the mood, a self-referential trap... and here's another way, and another way...

Sometimes it's returing to reading about meditation and getting intellectually interested again... or getting interested in the actual persons who wrote the book, what their lifes were actually like as human beings living in a changing world...

Sometimes it can just be making the connection with that inner wise guide that seems to be behind all of practice... we know there is something in us that is working, even if we have no idea where things are leading or what we need to do next. Sometimes just connecting with that essence/spirit/soul/Self is the heart of why we practice.

And sometimes it >completely unrelated to practice<. There can be aspects of our life that we have been neglecting. Exercise, diet, friendship, entertainment, travel, music, art.


So just a quick word of advice from someone that has gone through pre-SE depression and dukka nanas and disenchantment with practice many times over a couple decades (!) before my practice really got traction --- sometimes it passes in a day or two, but when it feels like something deep is involved, it's usually trying to tell you something. 

The best practice seems to come from working on whatever "weak link" that presents itself and then follow wherever it leads and then address the next weak link... rather than following methods that assume that progress is going to go in a particular way. My two cents.


Best wishes in 2018!! 

Thanks Shargrol for taking the time to write this. It is a very dark and difficult time for me. I will have to re-read this. I want to add I've enjoyed and benefited from all your posts, those you've written for me and those for others I've read. Thanks for all this help.
It would be great if I discover more clearly what this depression is trying to tell me. I actually think underlying depression may be part of what led me to practice, to Buddhism in the first place.

Notes on Re-Observation bad trip.

Last night in my sitting I experienced strong, chaotic vibrations, similar to some of the head vibrations I've described before. But this time they felt like my head was a malfunctioning washing machine that goes "bang, bang, babababang..." and accompanied with moments of fear, moments of feeling in danger or like the world is a dangerous place, feelings of edgyness or ill at ease. A lot of thinking eventually came, mostly about how I might write this in this log the next morning! I think the thinking may have been a defense mechanism against staying more with the experience. I did came back again and again with the whole experience though. I was sort of ok with it as it was happening.

Sometimes mapping has been a hindrance to me, but this time knowing about the map put the experience in perspective and was helpful. I was meditating in bed. After I lied down my mind was racing, and also had a vivid self-image as a decomposing corpse, bluish-black. Really f*ed up but again it's good I've read about how vivid images like these can come in Dukkha nanas. 

Back to some more practice now..

Awesome.

Starting my annual solo 7-day retreat in my basement tomorrow morning. I've been used to write in my log after such retreats. But I'm noticing a repetitive beginning of retreat phenomena I'll post here. I usually feel tense when I start a retreat, contrary to my normal daily meditation routine. It almost feels like a loss of ability to meditate, and that I meditate better off retreat, at least when it comes to the first day or first few days of retreat. 

Not sure what this tension is about. Some thoughts are: 

-Perhaps some pressure to get it done (SE), related to what Shargrol has mentioned above as potential downside of retreats that are less than 100 days.

- Perhaps some withdrawal symptoms from refraining from usual daily pleasures like hanging around and goofing around with my loved ones, watching tv, reading, etc.

- Maybe a mix of the above and more. 

Off I go in a few hours...

My first meditations of the retreat, one last night and one this morning, were surprisingly quite still. Lots of stillness with usual occasional background middle of the head vibrations. 

The following helps:

If stress and tensions arise, it's only mental movements to note.

If excitement about the meditation arises, only mental movement.

Disapointment about practice, only a mind movement.

Defeatist thought about practice ("I can't do it"), only mind movement. 

Anticipation about practice (usually immediately after head vibrations arise), only mind movement. 

Depressive thoughts, mind movement. 

Movements of attention, mind movement.

Stillness, even that a mental formation. 

I think my practice at this point is to develop the ability to automatically see all these states as states, as mind movement.

I may not post again before end of retreat as this feels like it could be a distraction.

Great self-advice!

Another bit of advice for equanimity...

States and stages are fine to notice, but recognize that retreats creates the "container" of equanimity. You become better able to be with all of THIS because it is all within mind, all within awareness, not in a particularily special way, but in a very very natural way... 

If things are going fine as they are, you are allowed to enjoy the lived experience of being present. Enjoy being "here". If there are thoughts that "I need to practice harder" that's a mind movement. If there are thoughts that "I'm almost there" that's a mind movement. If there is a thought "I'm dropping out of equanimity, I'm getting farther away" that's a mind movement, too. Connect with your lived experience whatever it is. Try to live in this present and immediate way all retreat.

As a little trick: physical sensations are always immediate. You can rely on feeling physical sensations as a refuge, a way to reconnect with  immediate experience.

When you are "here", it is a very simple state. Nothing really breaks it. Nothing really can be added to it. It IS.

Sometimes this is-ness is kind of concentration state inducing and you'll want to close your eyes. That's fine, you can go deep into inner awareness. That is still "here". 

Sometimes this is-ness is so immediate that thoughts become nearly silent or like a trickle, and you wonder "am I even practicing?". That's still being here.

Sometimes this is-ness evoke a splash of creative thinking and you wonder "should I try to capture all these ideas or should I try to stop all this thinking?". Basically, don't worry about it. Let the mind do what it does. Limit note taking to a few words or a few sentences, but let thoughts happen. Trust that if it is a good thought, it will come back after retreat.

(I've been seduced many times into creative writing for 30 minutes on retreat when 3 minutes was more than enough. Basically, my mind was bored/creative and was kind of trying to avoid being present.)

Sometimes there will be a storm of worries and concerns and feeling like everything is a catastrophe. Don't worry. That's your friend reobservation. Now is a perfect time to say "oh, look at this mind worry and freak out. I'm going to study how a mind freaks out."

Sometimes you need to move the body, walking meditation, stretching, etc.  -- do so, do it mindfully and experience what it is like to be right "here" in a body. 

Finally make sure you sit each evening until you are really ready to go to sleep (like head-nodding, etc.) Sit until you head-nod three times, then mindfully get into bed. Be "here" in bed until the body disappears as you go to sleep. Be "here" in mind as your mind goes to sleep and intend to notice your frist experience when waking finally happens. Let yourself sleep how ever you sleep, dream however you dream, don't worry about that, sleep will do it's own thing on a retreat, listen to your body needs for sleep, maybe it needs more, maybe it needs less.

Equanimity isn't just the clear, calm, open "state". Mature EQ seems to seep into any mind state. It is an objective and intimate knowing of what is "here".

Once you are here, you don't need to "do" anything besides dwell in this simple pleasure that arises from seclusion. So simple, so complete. Nothing to be added. Nothing to take away. Any resistance or ill will is so obvious and so irrelevant, the mind just trying to find a problem, but you know that it's just a habitual movement of mind, so including that mindstream of worries in this experience of being here.

Poor mind, so troubled for all these years. It wants to worry because it just wants to protect us. That's fine mind, do your thing. I won't repress you, but I won't indulge you either... 

So thoughts come and go, emotions come and go, urges come and go, body sensations come and go... all within this space of knowing. Sometimes this knowing is on the exterior world, sometimes on the physical body, sometimes on the inner space of mind... all of this is known. And this knowing is the essence of mind nature. No extra effort or attention is needed. You can relax and let the mind know.

Let the mind know.

Best wishes!

Thanks a lot Shargrol for your always generous and practical advices. It is much appreciated. To me your writings are golden. You've been (and are) a teacher to me. I'm sure many others must feel the same.

So far nothing unusual in my retreat. Will post more at end of retreat.

Some post-retreat notes:

Nothing much new and didn't get stream-entry. Some of the thought petterns concerning realization mentioned above: anticipation, desire for awakening, thinking I must practice harder, dispointment about practice, confidence about practice, etc, all arose a lot in first few days. Starting day 5 or 6 something changes about these thougths when they came. They were noticed very early in their inception and didn't move the mind much, kind of like a little flicker of dust passing through a large room. And they disappeared real fast, having no power over the stillness. Not a huge stillness but quite still, even though mind could get slippery with thoughts. 

I discovered something about my own psychology, something I have come to note as "intellectual craving." It is the attempt to pin down the whole practice intellectually, such mapping thougths, and desire to grab one of my Dharma books or come here and read posts.

Also noticed another pattern I now note as "counter-thought". That's a resistance in the mind that comes quickly when I have thougths "I shouldn't have", which included very simple thougths like thoughts about awakening. In psychoanalytic term, it's super-ego strictness: "hey, you should be mindful and not dwell in those thougths" or somehting like that. Easy to say just notice and note but gosh some conditionings are strong. This "counter-thought" phenomenon is alwasy accompanied by tension near the chest. But in last two or three days these counter-thoughts were also catched very early in their inception, which for me is quite a progress.

Today is the first day out of this retreat. I'm alone at home and an hour ago I had a thought to sit and watch tv, then another came that no I should go meditate some more, then a quick but intense panic attack, something I didn't have in years. The panic attack was observed and, though quite intense and destabalizing, vanished quickly. Felt like a meditation neurosis could start develop there and then. I'm trained in psychoanalytic therapy and could quickly detect the inner conflict: desire to take it easy today, and super-ego rambling down very oppressively against that desire. I still feel some anxiety but manageable.

I feel I need time after a retreat to literally recover my defense mechanisms and my persona in order to restabilize. It's like I have to take the red pill from the Matrix again to re-enter normal daily life. The transition from retreat to normal life has often been difficult for me, just as the other way around in beginning of retreat.

On day six also had some bad news: my mother severely injuring herself in an accident, though quickly stabilized and helped appropriately. This brought some stirr of complex guilt complex in my mind and emotional stuff. Day 7 I could quickly settle back in stillness during meditation (though staying in touch with family on the issue).

Part of me wants to continue meditating hours every day, another part wants to re-integrate normal life. Oh mind, always in conflict.

Thanks again to Shargrol for the advices: they really feel tailored to my situation. 

I opted for a lazy afternoon on the couch. Watching tv. Yet, without consciously deciding to initiate meditation, I found myself many times eyes closed, turning awareness inward. Very relaxed and awere and many occurences of this quick tapping/flickering/vibrating inside the head.
Cool...

Perfectly awesome. Sorry about your mom, but you couldn't ask for a better retreat in terms of seeing deeply into the false self. You can really see how "being/experiencing" gets corrupted into intellectual mapping, how "intuition/insight" get's corrupted into super-ego harshness. Those two are subtle in everyday life, but they really become more obvious when they cook up in the space of a retreat. Retreat drives the intellect and super-ego kinda crazy, because you're >just sitting there doing nothing in particular<!       

So for what it''s worth, Stream Entry doesn't need to happen on retreat. It didn't for me. I was just continuing my practice (actually a few weeks after a retreat) with nothing much changed in my life... Except:

- I absolutely trusted that my mind (not intellect or superego) was leading the way. It just needed my daily practice to see what it needed to see, so to speak.

- My "effort" dropped to almost nothing. How can I "work" or "try" to get get stream entry? It's ridiculous!! I don't know what it is or where it is, how can I try to get there?

- I let go of any state being the answer... and any state being a problem. What does it matter what arises? Equanimity is awareness and acceptance of whatever arises. It's almost too simple.

- I didn't keep trying to "clearly objectify" anything. If I got sleepy or drifty, I let myself get sleepy or drifty. Was I aware of sleepiness or driftiness? Yes. Cool, that's all that is needed. No need to be clear or bright or lazer-minded. Drifty or confused or foggy --- those were all mind states that could be accepted, too.

- The last thing that seemed to change was a willingness to just kind of dwell on the mindstream --- that flow of semi-verbal sounds in the head, that bubbling of proto-emotional urges, that vague sense of somatic being... the subtle flow of things became an object of meditation. Those things really aren't intellectually known and the super-ego doesn't like that stuff because it's bubbly and vague, but it had it's own attraction, hard to explain... except it sounds very similar to the tapping/flickering/vibrating that you mention above!


So basically just trust that it is a matter of time. Relax because "you" don't know how to do it and "you" will never know when it will occur. So really the only thing to do is relax in awareness, enjoy calm states, let go of worries, but keep a gentle and consistent daily practice going.

It can be good to sit without a timer/clock. If it feels good to keep sitting, keep sitting. If it feels like time to get up, sit a few minutes longer then get up. If it feels like you are falling asleep on the cushion, fall asleep on the cushion. 


No big deal, just a matter of time.

I made an experiement in the use of attention in meditation yesterday, one I had made a couple of years back. This led me to categorize two sets of meditative states or modes in my practice, and I'm wondering if I should give attention more to one of them than the other to progress.

Mode 1: That's the experiementation I did yesterday. I focused attention very narrowly under my nose and, on top of trying to track down as many sensations I could, I also tried to notice as many movements of attentions I could. For example, a moment of attention on tip of the lip, then another moment of attention moving an inch above, then an inch to the right, then expanding a little, the contracting a little. By doing that, very quickly, there arose eruptions of very quick pulses/vibrations in the facial area.

I could give the name "lazer beam - fast noting" to this mode. I had tried that 2 years ago and a big sudden quick flash of blue light arose and passed at the level of the forehead. Then I tried again and a line of flicker was perceived behind my forehead. This never happened again but I'm beginning to see how fast and precise noting can give somewhat dramatic and interesting results.

Mode 2. This has been the usual place I get when I meditate for the last two years or so. And I already described it a few times in past posts. The awareness is more panoramic. There is no energetic probing into details of individual experiences. All experiences (breath sensations, body sensations, thoughts, etc) are felt to be happening within a larger space. And it doesn't feel like there are big differences between experiences, as they are all automatically seen as stuff of nature arising and passing away. I can still distinguish that one thing is a beath sensation, another a body sensation, another is a thought, but they are seen as more or less the same thing, which makes it so that it  doesn't matter what's arising. Occasionally I would feel middle of the head quick pulses of tapping in mode 2. Like "tap tap tap" then it stops.

I have sometimes wondered if mode 2 is either access concentration or equanimity. As far apart as these are on the map, somehow they seem related in some way to me.

And although it may be tempting to say mode 1 is A&P and mode 2 is equanimity, and therefore I should not bother with mode 1 since I'm getting to mode 2 frequently, there is a part of my mind that says something like "I don't know the map. There are these two modes I can identify and I wonder  what I should focus on more." 

Mode 1 really feels like "wow something special is happening and developing here.." And it is somewhat more difficult to make it happen than drop into mode 2, which makes me wonder which one is "more advanced meditation." If mode 1 is a lower nana, then why is it more difficult to make it happen? I have read Daniel Ingram giving special importance on fast precise noting, like noticing as many sensations as possible. I wonder if I should cultivate that more.

Mode 2 is usually less spectacular but giving rise to more wisdom: the ability to see the mind more clearly than mode 1. Mode 2 may  also see all the above as just mental noise, now that I think of it, lol.

Any thoughts welcome.

In general, Mode 1 and then rest in Mode 2 when Mode 1 seems too manic/manipulative. Have that as a general bias.

If you start off in Mode 2 and Mode 1 doesn't seem like it's likely, then just soak in Mode 2.

Mode 1 and Mode 2 aren't necessarily incompatable with each other, so that's another thing to consider. Actually, what you describe as "occasionally I would feel middle of the head quick pulses of tapping in mode 2" is a perfect example of this --- and a very important event.

I would highly recommend that you stay curious about the quick pulses in the middle of the head.

Thanks Shargrol!

This describes the two subsets of insight practice that I've experienced down to a T, and I have all of the same questions as you!  I've only recently (since January or so) started to spend significant time in mode 2.

During my sits, mode 1 goes along, speeds up, and then experiences start cropping up such as tingling flowing through my body, pressure/tension in my forehead, small facial twitching around the lips, waves of bliss, general jerking around of my body.  Eventually it stops (usually over the duration of a breath and I've tried seeing how far everything would go and how intense it would get but I always end up "dropping out" of the experience.  I can never tell if I'm losing focus, or if it's something that naturally comes and goes.

Mode 2 is more likely to leave me with sensations that my body is dissolving into the space around me (all of my senses turn into a "smudge" of flickering points of sensations), swaths of purple and blue floating in my vision, and a sense of flickering that feels all encompassing. 

I'm interested in hearing more about this topic and if many others report the same thing maybe it would be beneficial to start an entire new thread for it

There really isn't much more to say about this topic except keep practicing. (Honestly, don't over think it, stay curious, keep sitting daily, go on retreats if you can but if you can't no big deal just keep practicing.)

Sounds good!

Mode 2 is pretty much what i do.

plus, NOT trying to change the experience in any way.

Just sit, shikantaza.

Have you read about it? Tried it?
Zen tradition.

Mode 2 naturally makes Shikantaza quite compelling, actually. I have not read much about it, but read into what I think is it's Chinese counterpart in Chan Buddhism (silent Illumination school, late master Sheng Yen). If I remember correctly, Sheng Yen teaches in 3 steps: aware of whole body sitting, aware of whole environment sitting, then, I think, drop the whole thing (step 3 is awakening I think).

Thanks

I'm on the beginning of the fourth day of a seven day intensive practice at home: around 6 hours of sitting meditation and 3 or more hours of walking meditation.

Nothing much new in my practice. But a few observations on the "not new material".

I read an old log on Awake Network where Kenneth Folk was teaching jhana jumping post SE. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still pre-SE but tried some aspects of it, although in a vipassana style (Vipassana jhana I guess).

1st Induced mind to focus tightly on any sensation that seemed solid. A sensation of pressure on my nose. Then another sensation of pressure near my left temple.

2nd Induced mind to penetrate those pressure sensations. Sure enough, they start vibrating.Quick pulses and vibrations were felt around the face.

3rd. Induced mind to become diffuse over the whole body. 

4th Induced mind to expand beyond body (in my case I would say it felt like it expanded 2 or 3 feet around the body. This got me straight to a very familiar place and where I consider have been my cutting edge for the last 2 or 3 years: Expanded awareness that includes all things within it. A sense that it doesn't matter what arises: a breath sensation, a movement of thought, etc. They are all kind of the same stuff: movements of nature arising and passing away within awareness. 

In this expanded awareness, there is also, not always but often, a curiosity about "what is awareness"? Or, "what is aware"? There is also a sense in this state of access to some (at the risk of sounding spiritually narcissistic) of the "big wisdom material" of spritual traditions: e.g. "all things are manifestations within absolute awareness", an "awareness that can never be taken as object, and which has no features upon which it can be identified".

There is also a slight frustration that despite all the above in this 4th mode of focus, there is still this somewhat annoying sense of solid center. This morning I turned my attention toward this "solid center" and it vibrated very smoothly for a few seconds. 

In the last few weeks, I've made an interesting observation about the 2 or 3 quick pulses that arise in the middle of the head when I'm in the focus mode 4 above. It is that the three pulses can be provoked in three ways:

1. By paying very close attention to the ending of a sensation/experience.

2. By generating a deep sense of dispassion toward all phenomena (beause they all have a slight stress to them). This kinda feels like I focus on "not focusing on anyphenomena", or "inclining to the void where there are no phenomena".

3. By Looking for the observer and seeing that it too is just a thought rising and passing.

I was baffled to realize that these actually correspond to the 3cs, or the "3 doors". In my case, the 3 doors to the middle of the head quick pulsing, not to nibbana because I have never experienced a cessation in my practice.

A final note. In some sittings, it seems I "fall back" to being a total clueless beginner that lost the ability to meditate, to be in 4th mode above. This feel solid and constricted, like the beginning stages (first 3 nanas perhaps). 

Oh, one final curious thing. But this is something that's been going on for quite a while, maybe a year or so. After an afternoon nap, I would, immediately upon waking up, feel extremely rapid vibrations under the nose and a little bit inside the face, and really concentrated, as if I was in some A&P territory.

 Ben, you sound very “ripe” to me right now. It might be time for you to fall off the tree...

take your time and make a relaxed home in 4th mode and very very very gently look (almost more wondering than looking) for where is the center of your mind.

No worries if you mind wants to show you other stuff, that’s fine, the mind is always right...

...but when things are calm: “where is the center of my mind?”

This is a very very subtle wondering/looking.... and kinda feels like the mind gently gently gently turn back upon itself like “as I wonder about the center of my mind, where is the center of this wondering?”

Thanks Shargrol! Very much appreciated.

After I read your response, I immediately turned inward and felt the mind being very light and expansive, and a sense that there is no center!

Well, I didn't fall off the tree/ had any cessations, but I did a lot of "looking for the center" whenever my mind was in this calm zone since then. What I realize is difficult is the "very very gently part." That will take some practice...

One more day of intensive practice now + the rest of this evening...

Just finished the last meditation of my 7-day intensive practice at home.

Of the last two sittings, nana-wise, seems like the first one was in equanimity (very still and calm mind, objects that arise immediately and effortlessly seen as just objects that rise and fall in space, some pulses in middle of the head) and the last one in reobservation (rapid, frantic vibrating in face, behind face and head, with occasional quick stabs of itches here and there). There was still equanimity in the reobservation though, an okayness.

That's it. 

To be continued..

Cautionary tale (to myself and others):

I woke up last night (which was that last day of retreat), close to midnight, feeling extremely exhausted, drained, and some undefinable unpleasant sensations in my chest and head, weakness in my hands, all of which I intuited as lack of nutrition. Felt very weak on my legs as I got up.

I observe the 8 monastic precepts when I do retreats, which includes not eating between noon and the following morning. Seems like this time around my body didn't take it, seven days in a row. I felt these symptoms a few days into the retreat (less intense) but they went away. Weird how when I came back from "retreat mode" my body showed those symptoms with a vengence. 

My wife prepared miso soup with bread and sardines at midnight seeing how I was. She said I was very pale. I was so weak and having such unleasant sensations she was wondering if I needed to go to the hospital. I didn't. Woke up almost 2 hours later feeling as horrible. But decided to sleep it over and see.

This moring I feel better, but still weak. This morning I am scheduled to facilitate a meditation group as replacement for a teacher in a Yoga studio. Hope I will have my strength ok. Back to eating normally today!

I have watched a Culadassa interview lately where he explained how advanced meditators can be better at ignoring or bypassing emotional and even bodily symptoms/needs, as he talked of his own health situation. I wonder if duriong this retreat I was not doing just that, in this case ignoring signals of de-nutrtion. Still, meditation was good. 

Note to myself: Next time I need to check on my nutrition!! 

I have not posted for a while because nothing changed in my practice (same as last few posts). I still meditate everyday, often 2 to 3 sits a day. In my guestimate I`m a chronic equanimity nana yogi, for the last 3-4 years. In a way it's mostly nice. It seems as if the wisdom of not-self is a daily reality, even off cushion. "Me" is a sensation arising and passing in awareness.

The frustrating part is there is still the tension of a center-observer, even though I see it again and again as a mere sensation.

I was reading `A Compilation of Shargrol`s Posts` just before writing this post. 

In one of his post as I read the following part of a sentence "there is nothing at the center...", I felt a drop in the center of my body, a sense of weirdness, lightness, then a sense of terror and mild panic. Just a few lines later, I read :

a very subtle and primal fear will arise. Definitely. It's the fear of annihilation, death of the self. The practice will seem a bit wrong and dangerous.

Well, ya, exactly that. But it didn't last long. I have felt this many times in my practice in the past and could observe it and be ok. He also talks in the same post about being warned of the killer cows (in Bahiya sutta). Shargrol, if you are reading this by any chance, could you explain to me what that warning is?

So practice is good overall, just stagnant. Still, it's fun to sit back and just watch phenomena for what they are, including the disapointment with no progress, desire for progress, and other such mental phenomena.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.than.html

Bahiya was killed by a cow shortly after awakening.


It really does seem that looking at thoughts is really conducive to stream entry -- if someone has developed equanimity. If you can listen to the sound of thoughts and feel how thoughts kind of tap tap tap in the mind... that can be very interesting.

Shinzen often says that if he had to choose, he would choose noting Gone, and also working with Focus In techniques to reach Stream Entry. Focus In would be noting mental images and talks, and bodily sensations of emotions. It seems that this is similar to what you are saying? Right?

Yes, I think so. "Hear In" I think is how I remember him describing it --- at least in one version of his model!  

Yes, what you described would be Here In in his system. I meant the emphasis that both of you seem to have on working with thoughts and emotions to reach stream entry. Thanks.

Here?!? really? what _isn't_ here?

I said "Here In" not "Here" ;-)

-- Edit:
Oh, I had not noticed the typo :-D , sorry dear Hear!

Thanks Shargrol. Makes total sense to me, to my experience,  especially how the thoughts tap tap tap in the mind. 

A question, or rather, an investigation, is becoming predominant in some of my sits lately. Is it "seeing" that fress? Or is it dispassion that frees? No pun intended about the book 'Seeing That Frees' even though I happen to be reading it and at 3/4 of the book. 

In stillness during sitting, there is an ability to see subtle mind movements that normally seem to be "self", things like effort, calmness, interest, desire for awakening, doubt, disappointment and, directing attention to an object. Just like Daniel Ingram describes. But this directing of attention to see the 3 Cs, even of subtle objects, is itself characterised by subtle stress. There may even be a desire behind the seeing; "desire to see".

Here's the big insight then: Insight is dukkha!

Isn't this the raft that needs to be let go of? 

When I let go of the "seeing":, it feels like there is a gravitational pull toward deeper letting go and deeper peace. At the risk of repeating basic Buddhist wisdom, it really does seem like the only peace is for ALL mind activities to cease. Even wisdom is nothing but stress.

Vipassana does not liberate. Dispassion does. 

Ps. Doesn't mean Vipassana is the wrong path. It gets one to the point of realizing that even the activity of vipassana, of seeing the 3 Cs, is dukkha.

It's interesting the way people put this in words. 

I think I get what you are pointing at. I tend to say the investigation or searching contains effort/stress, but seeing/awareness itself doesn't have dukka. Seems like the way you use "seeing" is similar to how I use "investigation" or "searching". Seems like the way you say "dispassion" is similar to how I use "awareness".

Experience is without labels... when mindfulness is very sensitive, then even the urge to label is seen as an effort. Yet there is still dispassionate awareness...

My advice is to find that subtle dukka that is linked to "seeing" for you... and figure out where that dukka exists but by continuing to use no effort to seek it --- basically find it and allow it to be. Where is it? 

For me, it put me into the flow of the very very subtle mindstream...

Wow! Thanks!

And yes, that's exactly what I meant by "seeing"; investigating objects.

I am learning to meditate on grief in a new way, and getting insight into how I have bypassed grief in the past.

My pet dog is dying of cancer, and I'm sad. I've been looking into this 'Non-dual psychotherapist' Brian Theriault who has a website called 'Luminous Awakening'. He also specializes in grief counseling on top of what he calls non-dual therapy. So he got my attention and am reading some of his articles.

He talks a lot about fully feeling the emotion, not creating a subject-object relationship to it. More later on my recent practices with that.

I realize how I've been using meditation and spiritual practice sometimes to by-pass grief. When my previous dog passed away, not long after I went meditating. I had the idea to test how giref is incompatible with A&P. So I resolved to go into A&P. Soon enough, quick pulses and feelings of ease, with no grief. The next seven days or so, crying spells.

In the last few days, I meditate beside my dog, go into deep stillness/equanimity, then recite the Metta Sutta in French for my dog. After such sessions, I feel calm and peace for a while. All is fine. Death is fine. All arise within awareness, etc. A few hours later, BAM, grief (anticipatory grief) strikes again, heavy and hard.

I avoid grief like it's a deep hell, like if I allow myself to fully feel it, it will make me crazy. It tends to make me feel dizy.  There are two types of depressive personalities: The introjectives who basically feel all is wrong with them (the self is bad), and the anaclitics who rather feel the world out there is bad, a cold, lonely place, futile, etc..

I have quite the anaclitic traits, though perhaps not all of them, but certainly subject to occasional bouts of seeing the world as empty, lonely, destined to loss, etc. Hence the conflict with grief: the sense it will drag me down to a forever lonely universe if I go there.

Today I applied what I read from the above-mentioned author concerning grief, off-cushion. I was lying down, and a strong feeling came as my dog was lying down close to me. It's hard to describe but it's like a mix of pain in the chest and grief. Instead of "meditating" to get to a still calm state, I just allowed it to come forth the way I would do with an itch in meditation. It came full blast and there was just the feeling (In the feeling only the feeling) and it passed away quickly. Came back like two more times and did the same. The sadness is still there. But it's a little improvement in my practice, it seems.

It's not about going through the nanas/POI for me at this point. Just discovering what I tend to not allow into awareness. I guess it's a combo of self-therapy and meditation, but I'm writing this in my log because this must definitely be part of practice. I don't think it will be easy but I see the way to go.

The day close human loved ones of mine (family, etc) will die, I would like to have more skills in moving through grief with wisdom. This is an opportunity for practice, with my pet-friend. 

I used to think, more or less consciously, that perhaps when I get 1st path, or 2nd path, etc, then I will deal with grief more easily. Now I rather think, I need to just work NOW with what arises in the moment and stop projecting into the future. Basic Dharma, but heck we fall off track so many times..

Ben, my dog has cancer, too, so I have a sense of what it's like to be living with a great animal friend and also know that the very close friend is going die. It really sucks to know I'm going to lose her, no doubt about it, and I have no idea what I'll feel when the end comes. Mostly I'm appreciating the time we have together (as she just rolled to the side as she's going to sleep, and is now pressed up against my leg ) and letting the future be the future. 

I admit I'm scared I may not know how to help her when her time to die comes. I feel that often. So many variables, including how sudden or slow it happens! It's tough, even though I know it's part of the package deal.  

Wishing you and your dog friend many timeless close moments together. 

(Ah, now my dog is running in her sleep, bouncing against my leg   I'm definitely going to miss this!) 

Thanks Shargrol!

Ya end of life care for dogs is often full of uncertainties of what to do, often around the question of euthanasia it seems. What I'm doing now since last night when he started to show signs of breathing distress, is give him doses of Tramadol (a derivative of morphine I believe) and will do so each 8 hours, as per my Vet's prescription. This may be an alternative to euthanasia, as we ease the pet's pain during the dying process. Vets often don't give such info. it seems (as the custom is to go for euthanasia right away) unless one digs for it, which is what I did. Now it's really a moment-to-moment thing.

Thanks so much again for sharing. Made me feel not alone in such situation.

Wishing you and your dog as much ease as possible through the process.

I've decided to do a ''marathon'' of six weekly sessions with Kenneth Folk to give a boost to my practice. 

I've noticed in this forum and others that most who succeed getting stream-entry got there while getting coached regularly, hence my decision. Up till now my coaching sessions have been rather sporadic. Had the first of six sessions last week. 

In his sessions he lets me decide what theme to tacle. Any advice on how to use such sessions for maximum benefit appreciated, though as I write this I realize I will also ask that question to him next time. What I've usually done in the past is just give phenomenological reports of recent practice.

Last time I adressed a frequent tightness in my chest during meditation and how to deal with it. He basically made me realize how I was getting caught in a basic mistake 101: wanting my meditation to give me what I want, hence forgetting the first noble truth! Lol no duh how could I have missed that!, but this was helpful and has led during the session and the following days to notice ''manipulating" (mental acts of subtly trying to manipulate my meditation during sitting to get what I want). 

I've also decided to cut a bit on distracting activities (TV, non-Dharmic Internet stuff lilke news and politics), at least during the following weeks, although we're buying a puppy tomorrow and this of course will be distracting! Still, I will try to pack in more praactice. I also include revising the compilation of Shargrol's posts as I find them most helpful. This is not a retreat, just trying to boost daily and focused daily practice and focus on the Dharma.

Off I go...

Best of luck for you! Good to know you'll be working with Kenneth Folk, he's full of tools and tonnes of experience to share. Let us know how the process unfolds.

Metta!
​​​​​​​Pepe

Thanks Pepe!

​​​​​​​Will do!

Keeping my word on writing on my six-weeks marathon with KF sessions, though a bit late since it's been a while.

One thing that keeps amazing me is how often I (or we) need to go back to basics of mediation 101, even when touching interesting phases of meditation like equanimity: meaning esp., remembering that is is not about manipulating experience. This is one thing that was emphasized in KF sessions.

Another very interesting thing is he decided to guide me through the 4 jhanas in our 5th session, and, unexpectedly for me, in the 4 immaterial jhanas in our last (sixth session).

I have no clue how much of what I experienced would qualify for jhanas for one teacher or another, but something struck me when he had me explore 7th and 8th.

A few years ago I began getting into a state where there was much stillness, and a curiosity around the "nothing" between experiences. It could also be explained as a sense of a background still nothingness in which experiences come and go. In this state I can just just gaze into the "nothing". When KF guided me to what he called 7th jhana, that's where I found myself, although previously I would not have had the notion that this could be 7th jhana. 

Now, just a few months ago, while in this state, I noticed for the first time that although there was this nice "nothing", there was one coarse experience that is the "observer", and I followed an intuition to drop the observer. What that does is that the sense of observer is sensed like it collapses into a very small dot inside my head. In any previous state the observer is like a big neon light. In this new territory, it is like a small dot, or a wick of a flame about to go out (but doesn't go out). When Kenneth guided me to 8th jhana, this is where I found myself. I was like "hey this is what I discovered just a few months ago." This is really a place where awareness loses interest in going out toward objects.

What is weird is that some days my mind will go to "8th" very naturally, but on other days it's like my mind forgot how to get there.

When in "8th", KF talked about cessation being next, but I did not cease. However, cessation does seem like the next logical step (the light or flame wick going out completely). 

After this last session I felt like the 8 jhanas seem like a logical map to cessation, even though they are usually presented as "samatha not vipassana." I asked Kenneth about this and he told me Bill Hamilton once told him that whether they are aware of it or not, anyone who gets stream-entry will have  passed through those 8 jhanas. 

Now I'm using the term "jhana" very loosely here, as I know there are different standards out there. Perhaps such experiences may be seen as equanimity nana with immaterial jahna aspects. 
​​​​​​​Whatever it is, it's cool stuff

neat stuff, thank for sharing!
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Thanks for the update Ben!   Kenneth tried to teach me his way of Jhana-ing (eyes rolling up with each Jhana and different colors being imagined) but I showed no interest and he gave up very quick I was dead set on freestyle noting for the duration of each and every of my sits and he lost hope to teach me anything new really and would give me his dhamma talks instead which I found being very helpful in keeping me keeping on, as the terrain got more and more difficult from one month to the next. That "next meeting with Kenneth" got me going streight and true, accepting all experience and not loosing the stream of noting for the duration of the whole sit This went on for 6 months, day in day out. Unshakeable faith in the noting practice and my teacher.  He is a good man.

EDIT; about that "unshakeable faith" horses shit I did have doubt in Kenneth's teaching at one stage and thought me choosing him as a teacher to be a god aweful idea but that passed away very soon. 

Hello Papa Che Dusko,

If you are reading this, I'm curious to know what this rolling eyes upward and imagining different colors techniques are about, if you could share. 

I haven't heard much of those before. 

Starting a 7-day solo retreat next Saturday in my basement, and will include samatha/jhana as part of what I do, although noting will remain the central thing in most sittings.

Thanks.

Hi Ben!

Not sure as I haven't done it Kenneth thought it to be a good idea as I reported seeing with open eyes a dark grey doughnut like cloud coming out of the floor, getting larger and then suddenly disappear. This happen during full on noting aloud with eyes open and gently focused on the spot on the floor infront of me. 

He thought it's good to just learn the Jhanas so to shoot up to EQ rather than spend too much time in DN/3rd Jhana. 

I said ok so we did the excercise that one time (as I stopped showing interest in Jhanas he naturally moved onto other topics ... ) 

There was this sharp focusing on the nose but with eyes closed. It was a certain color. Then with another color eyes would move to the 3rd eye position and so on the eye balls would move upwards into the skull, going up the Jhanic arc. 

Kenneth thought I should just fire up to EQ via Jhana and I felt strongly to plow through DN via Noting Aloud He didn't mind and I think the EQ Nana afterwards was much more "solid" for a few weeks without sliding down into AP or DN. 

Sorry I could not help you more  
​​​​​​​Best wishes with the retreat! 

Btw, if you want Jhana-Samatha as part of your full on noting I can really warmly recommend having open eyes gently focused on a small Kasina object. I usually just find a spot of dirt on wall or floor or some round grain on the wooden floor and I also include it in the noting and note all the changes taking place. 

Stuff can get rather interesting in the image space doing this. It also keeps you more alert with open eyes I find. 

Just a tip in case you find it useful. 

​​​​​​​Again best wishes  

Thanks! 

Some notes on practicing with depressed mind states. 

In the aftermath of a temporary difficult situation that left me feeling depressed, the second nana (mind and body) teaches me to see how sadness, anger and guilt are effecting prettry nasty effects on my body (especially anger): A kind of instant karma situation when these mind-states are fed! This same insight-knowledge also makes me see that mind moments of loving-kindness/goodwill/metta, loosens up the nasty effects on the body created by the previous hurtful triade (sad, angry, guilt).

Equanimity makes me see the possibility of relinquishing those states, or allowing them to dissolve, to see their emptiness, leaving a space of peace. Equanimity seems to have so much medicinal properties!.. for both mind and body. It would be nice to be in it 24/7, but noticing how this desire creates tension.

May all beings be happy.

Been experiencing occasionally what I mentioned above in post 374 as ''8th jhanasih-like'' thing (or whatever it is) where awareness or ''the observer'' collapses into a small dot inside the head. It's like there is a sense of disenchantment with the observer and can allow it to then just drop. But it doesn't drop fully. It's kinda like an inflated balloon that one allows the air to to come out, and the balloon shrinks to a small size. The balloon is still there but not as predominant. The observer is still there but almost fully de-activated. When this happens, very often very rapid flickering happens in the middle of the head.

What is strange is that there are some days where my mind will naturally do that; allowing the observer to collapse. Yet some days it's like my mind forgets how to do that.

To get there, it seems there has to be a disinterest in the meditative mind itself. Very counter-intuitive in some ways. It's a non-meditation, or stop-meditating thing. 

Interesting Ben!  Added: your work on jhanas did pay dividends 

Nice. This is sounding much like a very mature equanimity. 

Yes, it is totally normal that the cutting edge of "presence-yet-disinterest" doesn't show up on every sit. It is a very high mindstate, actually, fairly cutting edge --- even though it is oddly not remarkable.

All that can really be done is to show up each day to practice and see where it takes us. At the beginning of a sit, it can be good to state the intention to reach your cutting edge by ~40 minutes into a sit, but then we let the mind take us where it needs to go. The mind is smarter than we are.

The flickering is a good sign. It can often be good to put one's mind on the flickering when it happens, like listening to music or watching the scenery out a car window...  Notice that sometimes the flickering mind almost has a tap, tap, tap feel to it. See if you can get close to the feeling of the flickering. Also note that flickering also means there are gaps in sensations. What is there within the gaps?

I'd love to receive a pep talk/dhamma talk from Kenneth Folk. I wish he had a good talk online i could listen to beyond the Deconstructing Yourself Podcast. 

"Equanimity seems to have so much medicinal properties!.. for both mind and body. It would be nice to be in it 24/7, but noticing how this desire creates tension."

Yeps it's nice ... however do not cling to it, and I mean it. Treat it as you would treat an itch or any other sensation. Observe it for what it is. Let curiosity and wonder just be and observe until it's bored of it all. Then keep observing that boredom. 
Imortant is not to quit meditation now. As shargrol say "we show up each day ..."

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy. 

​​​​​​​Best wishes B! 

Here's a forward looking thing to consider: as great as equanimity is, it is still a state. It is still something seemingly solid with defining characteristics... it is something observable, knowable. But what is observing and knowing it? What is the mind that sees? What is the mind that knows? Even as awesome as EQ is, there is something beyond going on. What is beyond?

(All of these questions are intented to redirect attention to the mind that knows EQ. They are not questions with verbal answers --- otherwise the answer would be just written down somewhere and we would all just read it and there would be no need for experiential practice. These questions are intented to -- gently -- fuel curiousity about the nature of mind in the midst of equanimity.)

Wow sounds like self-inquiry. It's interesting how the EQ state makes self-inquiry ripen. I wonder how successful self-inquiry is as a practice when one doesn't have a developed mind(4th vipassana jhana)? 

Thanks Shargrol! I always appreciate your advice/input!

And thanks Che Dusko for your input as well! Not cliging to equanimity seems definitely the next step.

Pepe, you are right; my practice has been more ''jhanic'' for a while. 

I've hesitated to post the following, an event I had last week in my car that was so subtle I'm not even sure if it was a ''thing''. 

So I had just sat in my car with my daughter, a week ago, coming from a store, and waiting for my wife to come from another store. My daughter asked to put some music so this happened at a very unexpected moment even while music was playing. 

So I decided to close my eyes, deeply relax and ignore formations (something I've been doing for a while), kinda like letting the mind rest and not move toward anything. Then I inclined to let go of the 'observer' (something I've been also doing for quite a while in my practice). Now usually when I do that, the observer seems to collapse like 95% for a few seconds, and it vibrates quickly inside the head. But now, there was a sense of complete release of the observer, like it dissipated completely, leaving the inside of the head totally tension-free. 

However, there was no cessation (or any discernable), nor bliss wave, nor any sense that something had fundamentally changed in me.

There has been a subtle change lately but it was manifesting before that ''release event'' mentioned above. The change was this. I used to be what I guess we could call a ''closet Hindu'', in that I relished in notions of universal consciousness, Brahman, etc. But this is losing the compelling force it used to have for me. Instead, my mind was more inclining toward 'release of any fabrications' without the felt need to conceinve notions of an 'Ultimate Reality'. Just release of mental fabrications. Period. In other word, a sense that practice need only be a process of release of (or from) mental fabrications, nothing more. And being very satisfied with that. Any conception (even of Ultimate Reality) creates tension anyway.

If anything, the event itself felt like a mild upgrade in meditative maturity. A better sense of what just seeing, just hearing...etc, feels like. 

I don't conclude SE at all with this. But it's somewhat interesting in some way.

That sounds good. Stuble shifts can be the most lasting.

​​​​​​​I also love ''closet Hindu''!

Amazing how practicing something eventually leads to achieving it.

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