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Use SSRIs at your peril

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Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 6:55 AM
howdy folks,
i just watched this LOOOONG documentary on youtube about SSRIs (selective seratonin uptake inhibitors).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU35o5mAgEg

this class of drugs is prescribed for everything from sadness to suicide and often by doctors who understand nothing about them.  the billions that are earned from sales and advertizing and the lobbying which is in place to support this pharma poison assures that one receives very little information about the very real and overwhelming evidene about the negative effects of these drugs.

the conditions which these drugs purport to heal are very often exacerbated by these very drugs especially when trying to get off of them.

be warned that most docs will not advise you against taking these poisons and you need to inform yourself. 

tom

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 7:51 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
Clearly that was meant to scare people. If you are informing people you don't produce a dramatic film  :-)

It reminds me of what the Scientology folks try say about these medications.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 8:06 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
hi chris,
you didn't speak to any of the points the film makes.  it is scary.  it is also in my limited experience , true.  you discard it (and the other dozens of films treating this subject) in an offhand and ad hominum way.

that is not being critical that is being arrogant.

tom

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 8:41 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
I see some of the medications to be crutches to get one going, if your so depressed you cant get undepressed, medication csn give you that extra focus. They shouldnt be used without therapy

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
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4/2/15 8:53 AM as a reply to Andreas.
hi andreas,
i agree to a point.  there are other things which can help one through tough spells though.  so one would be advised to look for another crutch without the side affects.

the pill culture is IMO wrong.  the biggest risk in this class of drugs is that what they claim : long term improvement of a 'mental condition' is almost always wrong.  that these drugs are addictive is often not exposed to the patient.  the docs often use word games to downplay addiction, calling it dependence.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 9:45 AM as a reply to Andreas.
Tom, millions upon millions of human beings have taken, do take, SSRIs. They are probably not the right, or the best, solution in every case. I'm sure they're over-prescribed. But much of what is presented in that video is just not correct. They are not addictive because the vast majority people who take them can easily get off the medication, albeit slowly, with little effort. I've done that. I took an SSRI for many years - without any side effects or addiction. I'm speaking from personal experience. I would argue that if you feel you would benefit from an SSRI see a reputable psychiatrist, an MD who specializes in depression and anxiety.

Some additional information, FWIW:

http://www.webmd.com/depression/ssris-myths-and-facts-about-antidepressants?page=2

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/ask-well-long-term-risk-of-antidepressants/?_r=0

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC181155/

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 10:06 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Clearly that was meant to scare people. If you are informing people you don't produce a dramatic film  :-)

It reminds me of what the Scientology folks try say about these medications.


didn't the US make a Grim Reaper advert when people kept having unsafe sex when aids broke out? we did. 

doesn't the US have warnings and graphic pictures on their cigarette packs? we do.

didn't the US show on prime time TV live terrified animals STILL being used as bate to train greyhounds? ours did. and the recent mass grave of greyhounds shot and dumped.  

seems the only thing the most aggressive species on the planet is scared of is the facts .. about themselves       

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
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4/2/15 9:44 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Yes, human beings definitely react more to scary stuff, emotional stuff, horror stories. Ask any proagandist or political communications consultant.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 9:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
hi chris,
i too have had a spell where i used an ssri and also had no problem dropping it.  to say that the documentary is wrong because we have had positive results is not a logical dismissal of that problem.

i have personal experience in my circle of friends where the shadow sides of these were evident and much worse than ever advertized.

i do not believe in the mental health medicine theory.  a psychiatrist is a doctor who prescribes these things.  the bible they use is not a scientific or even causal based tome.  it is a consensus based on indoctrinated pharmacologist sales agents.  i know thats an extreme view but fits the facts.

btw..i feel fine.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 9:48 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
BTW, people can react very differently to the same SSRI, and different SSRIs may be tolerable or not tolerable for the same person. This part of the thing always appeared to me to be an art more than a science. In my experience a good doctor will monitor their patient very closely and watch for adverse reactions ferquently when the patient starts on SSRI medication.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 9:55 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
hi chris,
in a perfect world you would be right but most of the docs don't study the negative effects, don't understand WHY some work for some people and not for others.  they don't understand the differing properties of the different specific drugs and how those differences can appear as specific symptoms in different people.

most docs who don't have success wiht the first prescription simply try another one and hope for the best.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 9:58 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
hi christ,
I appreciate the promotion!  emoticon


 ... to say that the documentary is wrong because we have had positive results is not a logical dismissal of that problem.
Tom, I didn't say the dopcumentary was "wrong." I said:

Clearly that was meant to scare people. If you are informing people you don't produce a dramatic film  :-)

It reminds me of what the Scientology folks try say about these medications.

This is a complicated area - finding good doctors, evaluating different kinds of therapies, diagnosing depression, anxiety, needing relief and wanting it desperately, and so on. This is not an area that benefits from propaganda coming from either side. It's hard enough without all the stuff out there like the pitching and wooing of the pharmeceutical industry and the demonizing of psychiatry. Information, sans at least some of the emotion and profiteering, is our friend.


RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 10:12 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
i took the promotion back :-)  ... but just so as not to inflate you ego.

i think that the burden of proof lies with both the pharma industry and the federal agencies who are clearly in their pocket and have both only profit as their goal.

the article links above links to the nih as well as a couple of mainstream , party line, web sources.  that the fda, the nih, the cdc, all have the purported goal of protecting our health from untrue and or dangerous claims they should be doing that instead of what they are doing which is allowing this monsterous industry to police itself.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/2/15 11:34 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Yes, human beings definitely react more to scary stuff, emotional stuff, horror stories. Ask any proagandist or political communications consultant.

yep its the avg person's idea of entertainment, so may as well slip in a few scary facts  ....since examining ones dangerous robotic passions and self absorbed culture, in place of SSRIs, is still not mainstream.

i'm all for MBSR. there needs to be a middle ground where the growing masses of non religious people can get their shit together without having to adopt moralising ideologies or qualify as Enlightened or Actually Free by hard core (radical) mystics and actualists looking down their noses at any other goal but their own, as inferior.   




  

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 12:53 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
hi christ,
I appreciate the promotion!  emoticon


 ... to say that the documentary is wrong because we have had positive results is not a logical dismissal of that problem.
Tom, I didn't say the dopcumentary was "wrong." I said:

Clearly that was meant to scare people. If you are informing people you don't produce a dramatic film  :-)

It reminds me of what the Scientology folks try say about these medications.

This is a complicated area - finding good doctors, evaluating different kinds of therapies, diagnosing depression, anxiety, needing relief and wanting it desperately, and so on.

yet it needn't be so complicated. hardly any of the above would be happening if it had been normal since the beginning of the 20th century for children to study (without eastern religious brouha) the origins of their own emotions psychologically and physiologically.  most of the above disorders and the businesses they generate only exist because people would rather eat junk, think senseless thoughts, let their bodies get sick, and play intellectuals moaning about big pharma conspiracies. here's a perfect example .  

i'm with George Carlin i have no sympathy for the human race. they have the info now yet they choose to remain ignorant. they deserve their misery. if it weren't for the damage their inconsideration causes and the suffering of other species, i'd be silent.     

This is not an area that benefits from propaganda coming from either side. It's hard enough without all the stuff out there like the pitching and wooing of the pharmeceutical industry and the demonizing of psychiatry. Information, sans at least some of the emotion and profiteering, is our friend.


RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 3:04 AM as a reply to Alin Mathews.
Hi Alin,
maybe i'm a moaning conspiracist.  or perhaps , having seen people close to me be driven to suicide and desperation after having put their trust and faith in a system which sees them as only an income stream has called up genuine compassion.

that the real connection between this particular class of drugs and the serious psycholgical problems they can create can be so easily ignored or even defended is a scary thought.  clearly , in a perfect world every person would take responsibility for their own health and life and it is a sad fact that many have given some of the most basic responsibilities to others and choose to remain ignorant.

I will watch your movie link.  Here are a couple of interesting places with information one generally doesn't come across.

http://ssristories.org

http://breggin.com/

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 4:08 AM as a reply to tom moylan.
tom moylan:
Hi Alin,
maybe i'm a moaning conspiracist.  or perhaps , having seen people close to me be driven to suicide and desperation after having put their trust and faith in a system which sees them as only an income stream has called up genuine compassion.

that the real connection between this particular class of drugs and the serious psycholgical problems they can create can be so easily ignored or even defended is a scary thought.  clearly , in a perfect world every person would take responsibility for their own health and life and it is a sad fact that many have given some of the most basic responsibilities to others and choose to remain ignorant.

I will watch your movie link.  Here are a couple of interesting places with information one generally doesn't come across.

http://ssristories.org

http://breggin.com/

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

thanks i'll check them out.

i agree with what your saying, same goes for any drug.

my apologies, i didn't mean to infer that 'you' were a moaning conspiracist. I was referring to the masses that aren't making any attempt (everyone here is) to examine and offload the over emotional effects of their cultural/social/religious conditioning which unnecessarily jerks their CNS around and exacerbates the propensity for neurotransmitters to overload or malfunction thence needing such drugs. 

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 5:56 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
most of the above disorders and the businesses they generate only exist because people would rather eat junk, think senseless thoughts, let their bodies get sick, and play intellectuals moaning about big pharma conspiracies. here's a perfect example .  
You must have angered the Internet gods or maybe the NSA (well, Time-Warner, actually) - that link is blocked in the U.S. for copyright reasons  :-)

But yes, it's clear that we in the west tend to resist introspection as a way to truly know ourselves. We reach outside for others, for doctors, for drugs, for anything to avoid facing the internal source of our demons.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 1:22 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
Hi, Tom,

The picture isn't so black-and-white. I have major depressive disorder. Although SSRIs have never worked for me, my problem being insufficient dopamine-to-norepinephrine conversion (which my genetic sequencing confirms a basis for), SNRIs have saved my life, literally and quickly. I didn't become depressed because I "thought bad thoughts" or was a moral weakling. Some depressive episodes are brought on by situational/existential crisis; some are due to endogenous imbalances in brain chemistry. Mine were the latter. Either way, by the time one is seriously depressed, the problem and solution is chemical.

In my experience with three separate severe nervous breakdowns over 25 years, pulling out of the ruinous effects of severe depression entails (1) getting your chems right as fast as comfortably possible, and (2) dealing in the aftermath with any "issues" that triggered or resulted from the chemical imbalance.

My first episode in 15 years was before my Aug. 8 path. I had gone off my SNRI about a year and a half beforehand because of similar concerns about side effects. I went on 5-HTP at the advice of an integrative medicine doctor who, like you, preferred anything "natural" to FDA-tested and regulated. The results were absolutely disasterous, and it took me a while to figure out what was causing the unbearable anxiety and nightmares. I had to run like hell from her, clean out of everything, restart the SNRI, and slowly add back micronutrients that I had lab work evidence to show I need. This is all to say that, just because something is "natural" does not always or even necessarily most of the time make it the best choice. My original brain chemistry is "natural"; it is also dysfunctional.

I credit SNRIs with helping me during the Dark Night, so that I could actually work with it, have insights, and attain to equanimity.

I too distrust the pharma industry, but some of the all-natural movements are cults. I still consider what some of these cults are saying, but I do keep in mind that they are cults and that herbal remedies and such are not tested for safety and efficacy at all.

Peace,

Jenny

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 3:00 PM as a reply to Jenny.
Although SSRIs have never worked for me, my problem being insufficient dopamine-to-norepinephrine conversion (which my genetic sequencing confirms a basis for)
Hi,

Can you elaborate on this? What genetic sequencing service(s) have you undergone? What genes or SNPs are you referring to specifically? Is it the DBH gene? To the best of my knowledge, any proposed connections between DBH and depression are theoretical/unproven or motivated by statistical correlations. To the best of my knowledge, the same applies to most of the information sold by genetic sequencing companies.

Can you define 'cult' as you're using it? Definitions vary widely.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 4:46 PM as a reply to Dada Kind.
Droll Dedekind:
Although SSRIs have never worked for me, my problem being insufficient dopamine-to-norepinephrine conversion (which my genetic sequencing confirms a basis for)
Hi,

Can you elaborate on this? What genetic sequencing service(s) have you undergone? What genes or SNPs are you referring to specifically? Is it the DBH gene? To the best of my knowledge, any proposed connections between DBH and depression are theoretical/unproven or motivated by statistical correlations. To the best of my knowledge, the same applies to most of the information sold by genetic sequencing companies.

Can you define 'cult' as you're using it? Definitions vary widely.

I have no wish to air all the relevant specifics of my genetic profile on the Internet, but I will say that 23AndMe was the service, with various reports being run afterward through other services. I also had several hours of discussion with my neurologist over the results. Genetics alone establishes nothing at the level of individuals, of course, unless we are talking about a disease state that for which a single gene is determinative--and there are few of those. There are ploygenic considerations, environmental factors, and epigenetics, for starters. However, I've had other tests for neurotransmitter metabolites that supposed show general levels of neurotransmitters involved in various neurological or psychiatric disorders. To tell you the truth, I'm not convinced that these metabolite tests are valid and reliable. 

However, several neurologists and one psychiatrist have stated to me over the course of these years, on the basis of their clinical observations and my history, that I have a problem with norepinephrine (ie, that's why the reuptake inhibitor helps with anxiety and depression--and migraine). Dopamine converts to norepinephrine, and my metabolite test showed high dopamine and low norepinephrine. I'm homozyous for the COMT polymorphism linked to this conversion problem, and I have symptoms of it that are relieved within 2 weeks by SNRIs--like a 2000-watt lightbulb was suddenly turned on and all actual dark/negative tape loops just stop.

As for defining "cult," I'm really not in the mood for debating sematics. I think people can generally figure out what I mean, which is just my opinion: Internet sites with intense groupthink, little to no scientific evidence, and lots of peer pressure not to utter anything off doctrine concerning certain cherished supplements and "medical foods." 

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 6:17 PM as a reply to Jenny.
I'm unaware of any direct connections between genes and mental health. I've only ever read about statistical correlation. Granted, the statistical correlations are useful in some cases like the APOE4, which we both have, iirc.

As much as I like to debate uses of language that wasn't exactly where I was going with that. It seems to me that most in-groups develop 'cult' characteristics over time, usually inversely proportional to feedback loops involving outsiders. And, there are often sub-in-groups within in-groups that never display 'cult'-like behavior. So, to some people some groups (likely hastily generalized to 'all') in the DhO probably seem 'culty'. To some people some groups (likely hastily generalized to 'all') in mainstream politics seem 'culty'. To some people some groups (likely hastily generalized to 'all') involved in pharmacological mental health treatment seem 'culty'. To some people some groups (likely hastily generalized to 'all') that eschew and criticize some (likely hastily generalized to 'all') allopathic treatments seem 'culty'. Etc.

It seems to me that the majority of groups in the world are jointly involved in 'cult' finger-pointing. It also seems to me that in most cases merely calling a group a cult without significant evidence and communication is little more than a signal concerning the emotional state of the sender's nervous system.

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 7:47 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
most of the above disorders and the businesses they generate only exist because people would rather eat junk, think senseless thoughts, let their bodies get sick, and play intellectuals moaning about big pharma conspiracies. here's a perfect example .  
You must have angered the Internet gods or maybe the NSA (well, Time-Warner, actually) - that link is blocked in the U.S. for copyright reasons  :-)

But yes, it's clear that we in the west tend to resist introspection as a way to truly know ourselves. We reach outside for others, for doctors, for drugs, for anything to avoid facing the internal source of our demons.
wow interesting. it's a fantastic funny entertaining doco made by a wealthy overweight (307LBs) Aussie businessman called Joe Cross (google a pic) who in a bid to lose weight, cure all his illnesses and stop taking pills galore, started a 60 day vegetable juice fast while interviewing Americans in New York restaurants (loves the place does business there) about their diets and what he was doing.

on the 30th day he heads out across the US with a gennie and juice extractor in the boot. all the while interviewing people and truckies about their diets. Really nice guy not judgmental at all. their reactions are great. one guy is SO HUGE Joe offers to help him if he ever decides to do it. the dude did 6 mths later at over 500LBS. Joe, now slim tanned and healthy flys over to help and the trucky's transformation is AWSUM! family, work mates even his kids are interviewed before and after. amazing.

both of them now hold classes about the benefits of mega quantities of micronutrients (raw vegetable juicing). one woman who tried it during the doco was interviewed mths later, hadnt had a migraine since. i know it works, been over supplying my cells for years ha. never get sick. it was seen by over 20million viewers so he made Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead 2 last year. avail on DVD. 

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/3/15 8:18 PM as a reply to tom moylan.
"Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them." - Mark 7:15

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
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4/4/15 4:57 PM as a reply to Echo 10.
Alin, from your description that clip appears to be from a movie called "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead."

RE: Use SSRIs at your peril
Answer
4/6/15 4:14 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Alin, from your description that clip appears to be from a movie called "Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead."


right which i put in my second post and the reason i call it a perfect example is this: why moan about big pharma without first finding out whether ones neural disorder can be rebalanced with a massive dose of natural micronutrients for 1 year, not just 2 weeks.

during that full length video (not clip) some his staff were interviewed just to see what they thought of his radical experiment (his wealth was not generated in the health industry) . what they were most amazed at during their brainstorming sessions was the effect it was having on his mental acumen. he was making creative decisions at a speed and quality they'd never seen prior to his micronutrient boost.   

the fact that theres been a 400% increase in the use of antidepressants since the late 1980's surely makes one wonder whether theres a correlation between the imbalance of macronutrient intake (fats sugars and starches) and micronutrients (fruits and greens) thats been going on since then. it should be 50/50. of course this won't be the only reason so many people are miserable but its a safer experiment than SSRIs. 

then again if people would rather just keep popping pills and trying every diet under the sun, like Joe Cross did for years initially, then i rest my case.

now an actualist would probably just practice HAIETMOBA and aim for virtual freedom (99% happy harmlessness 24/7) believing all their emotional trauma is the Feeling Being tweaking the instinctual passions. but there was a report from a person who had absolutely no reason to lie, and who's correspondence had been so exemplary Richard spent many months in their company during his visit to India (around 2010) and they reported that he was taking medications for PTSD during that visit (for all his claim of being stress free). now i realise brain cells can have genetic deformatives that remain no matter what one practices or the quality of micronutrients consumed but they may make it more manageable and enable a reduction in med dosages.