I can stop talking to myself

Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Since a while back I've been able to stop talking to myself. What this means is that I "step out" of the internal dialogue temporarily. When this happens there is a very clean feeling of something similar to relief and everything just unfolds with an almost sacred feeling of spontaneous movements and thoughts. From my perspective it seems as the 'control' of the body is handed over to the body itself, with no interference from the mind.

When I interact with people this is almost automatic and I have been able to stay as "pure awareness" (or whatever) when I am interacting, what is new is that I seem to have easy access to this state of no-thought even when there is nothing to focus on in the "outside world" (I don't believe in an inside/outside, that seems to be just an illusion of the mind).

It seems possible to surrender to this "body intelligence" in any situation, which also seem to cause all the interactions of the body/mind system to be MUCH more skillfull. When I stay in "no thoughts" both verbal interactions and physical movement is much more fluid, natural and graceful.

Would be interesting to know how this fits with different buddhist maps and experiences.

Namaste!
Mattias
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Colleen Peltomaa, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 401 Join Date: 6/19/14 Recent Posts
Hello, Mattias,

That is beautiful, what you have achieved with your practice. I can't comment on levels or maps except that I know this
is everyone's journey and experience towards absolute vanishment of all mind for all time.  Except on a voluntary basis.
What is next with regard to your practice?

love,
colleen
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Colleen Peltomaa:
Hello, Mattias,

That is beautiful, what you have achieved with your practice. I can't comment on levels or maps except that I know this
is everyone's journey and experience towards absolute vanishment of all mind for all time.  Except on a voluntary basis.
What is next with regard to your practice?

love,
colleen
Hi Colleen and thank you.

I don't really have a 'practise' anymore as I kind of view anything that happens as my practice. I actually have a bit of a beef with the idea of practicing meditation. For me when someone says "I meditate 2 hours per day" what I hear is "22 hours per day I decide to indulge my ego and be unconscious".

I try to stay in a meditative state all my waking moments and usually pray that my sleep and dream time will be inducive to enlightenment as well. Right now I have actuallly signed myself into a mental hospital in the hope of that being a context where the final (as if) stage of enlightenment can take place. The way I see it, ordinary consciousness is insane! The ego is insane and having one is a mental illness. Enlightenment is just sanity. Since there was nowhere else to go (no buddhist monasteries here) I decided (and when I say I here I speak as the soul/spirit inhabiting the body/mind system of Mattias) that this was the correct place to go to in the current culture. Now it's mainly a matter of embodiment and integration.

Oh.. and there seems to be a level of mind beneath the "monkey mind" that is now at least partially silenced. This is what I've designated the intinctual or reptilian mind, and it is much faster and much more subtle than the previous layer. It will be interesting to explore.

Thank you for your question and your well wishes.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 441 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
You've signed yourself into a mental hospital? There really aren't many of those around any more. Do you mean the psych ward of a hospital? And if so, how do you expect to qualify? Those places are expensive to operate and are unlikely to take kindly to being used as a retreat center. Speaking of which, why not go to one of those?

Either you are mentally ill, or are having a laugh on the DhO. If the former, I wish you well. If the latter, I guess I wish you well also. 
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
You've signed yourself into a mental hospital? There really aren't many of those around any more. Do you mean the psych ward of a hospital? And if so, how do you expect to qualify? Those places are expensive to operate and are unlikely to take kindly to being used as a retreat center. Speaking of which, why not go to one of those?

Either you are mentally ill, or are having a laugh on the DhO. If the former, I wish you well. If the latter, I guess I wish you well also. 

Hi Laurel. Your tone is really weird and confrontative.

Yes, in a way I am using the psych ward at a university hospital as a retreat center, what is it to you? And from MY perspective I am suffering from several mental illnesses: I have an ego. I got accepted since I made a contract with myself to kill myself physically if the ego-process didn't stop. 

Anyway, please use a less paranoid and confrontative tone next time you interact with me or I will simply ignore you.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 441 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
I'm very sorry; didn't mean to be so rude. I really do wish you well. 
Small Steps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 248 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
I've been able to feel this for very very brief moments of time, but it does allow many positive/natural feelings to emerge and shine. There's a fellow named Gary Weber who claims that the voices also stopped for him some years ago and I think he's written a book or two about the experience. He does acknolwedge that in times of physical duress that the voice does return. I think specifically he mentions extreme cases of hunger or sleep deprivation.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Small Steps:
I've been able to feel this for very very brief moments of time, but it does allow many positive/natural feelings to emerge and shine. There's a fellow named Gary Weber who claims that the voices also stopped for him some years ago and I think he's written a book or two about the experience. He does acknolwedge that in times of physical duress that the voice does return. I think specifically he mentions extreme cases of hunger or sleep deprivation.
The voice keeps returning all the time for me, even though I can step out of it at will it somehow takes some form of non-distraction or concentration to stay there. I'm usually only out of it for a matter of seconds (maybe 10 or so). Then the voice/mind jumps into action kind of like "Whoa... what's going on now?". I expect that the periods will be longer and longer, as well as easier and easier to access. This seems to be a gradual progress into "Zen mind" or whatever that is happening, and I'm happy with the transformation, and not to upset about it taking time to integrate. In a way, now that I know that it is accessible whenever I want it to, I'm no longer quite as motivated as I used to be to stop the thought proccess.

Another transformation is that the thoughts that still DO occur are much more coherent and constructive. It's as if 80-90% of the negative material that used to occupy it went away. So now I can turn the ego off, and the ego is much more well behaved when it is active. I just step out of the dialogue as soon as it turns negative or uninteresting.
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Psi, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 1095 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Since a while back I've been able to stop talking to myself. What this means is that I "step out" of the internal dialogue temporarily. When this happens there is a very clean feeling of something similar to relief and everything just unfolds with an almost sacred feeling of spontaneous movements and thoughts. From my perspective it seems as the 'control' of the body is handed over to the body itself, with no interference from the mind.

When I interact with people this is almost automatic and I have been able to stay as "pure awareness" (or whatever) when I am interacting, what is new is that I seem to have easy access to this state of no-thought even when there is nothing to focus on in the "outside world" (I don't believe in an inside/outside, that seems to be just an illusion of the mind).

It seems possible to surrender to this "body intelligence" in any situation, which also seem to cause all the interactions of the body/mind system to be MUCH more skillfull. When I stay in "no thoughts" both verbal interactions and physical movement is much more fluid, natural and graceful.

Would be interesting to know how this fits with different buddhist maps and experiences.

Namaste!
Mattias
Hello Mattias, 

The state you are describing is what I have been calling Bare Attention,  Pure Awareness, or Pure Mindfulness.  The state of mind where the Verbage is silent.  Antar Mouna is a good practice for getting to this state of mind, in fact it translates as inner silence.  The first time this happened to me spontaneously, there was alot of background and foreground thinking thoughts in the mind, and I was meditating, gently bring the attention back to the breath over and over, and then all of a sudden, everything just stopped, fell silent, nothing, then slowly everything came back together again inner verbally, but much quieter.  It was at this point in this life that I knew without a doubt that all of the meditation crap was for real, and that there was a state of mind that was far worth more than anything money could ever hope to buy.

Like you, at some point in the meditation career the difference between meditating formally and daily living began to become obscure, there really became little difference between the two, though while sitting there are less distractions and one is able to be aware of the subtleness of reality.  I have heard also of this during one of Shinzen Young's talks.

Anyway, yes there are different mind modes, the silent running mode, the directed thinking mode, and the discursive thinking mode.

By far and the most peaceful is the silent running mode, as far as I can tell the Ego and it's children, Greed and Hatred do not arise while one is in this mode.  The Ego, Greed and Hatred have no place to originate from.

This can also be seen in the links of Dependent Origination, right between Feeling and Craving.  If one lets the mind rest just between the two stages, i.e. between the Sensations and the Reactions to the Sensations, then there is peace.  But, that is just my layman's interpretation.

Anyway, I am glad that you have found this peacefulness, whatever it may be called.  And wish for others to find it also.


Psi Out

P.S.  

Earlier today I had also been reading this, which sounds similar, and is funny how you later posted sychronistically about the similar subject matter...

https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com/zen-chan-buddhism-how-to-practice-zen-meditation/
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Psi, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 1095 Join Date: 11/22/13 Recent Posts
PsiJust FYI , for anyone interested, you have to go back through the links from the links to see the first stages of Antar Mounahttp://emilylightyoga.com/2012/09/the-path-to-stillness-antar-mouna-part-5/

Out
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Psi:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Since a while back I've been able to stop talking to myself. What this means is that I "step out" of the internal dialogue temporarily. When this happens there is a very clean feeling of something similar to relief and everything just unfolds with an almost sacred feeling of spontaneous movements and thoughts. From my perspective it seems as the 'control' of the body is handed over to the body itself, with no interference from the mind.

When I interact with people this is almost automatic and I have been able to stay as "pure awareness" (or whatever) when I am interacting, what is new is that I seem to have easy access to this state of no-thought even when there is nothing to focus on in the "outside world" (I don't believe in an inside/outside, that seems to be just an illusion of the mind).

It seems possible to surrender to this "body intelligence" in any situation, which also seem to cause all the interactions of the body/mind system to be MUCH more skillfull. When I stay in "no thoughts" both verbal interactions and physical movement is much more fluid, natural and graceful.

Would be interesting to know how this fits with different buddhist maps and experiences.

Namaste!
Mattias
Hello Mattias, 

The state you are describing is what I have been calling Bare Attention,  Pure Awareness, or Pure Mindfulness.  The state of mind where the Verbage is silent.  Antar Mouna is a good practice for getting to this state of mind, in fact it translates as inner silence.  The first time this happened to me spontaneously, there was alot of background and foreground thinking thoughts in the mind, and I was meditating, gently bring the attention back to the breath over and over, and then all of a sudden, everything just stopped, fell silent, nothing, then slowly everything came back together again inner verbally, but much quieter.  It was at this point in this life that I knew without a doubt that all of the meditation crap was for real, and that there was a state of mind that was far worth more than anything money could ever hope to buy.

Like you, at some point in the meditation career the difference between meditating formally and daily living began to become obscure, there really became little difference between the two, though while sitting there are less distractions and one is able to be aware of the subtleness of reality.  I have heard also of this during one of Shinzen Young's talks.

Anyway, yes there are different mind modes, the silent running mode, the directed thinking mode, and the discursive thinking mode.

By far and the most peaceful is the silent running mode, as far as I can tell the Ego and it's children, Greed and Hatred do not arise while one is in this mode.  The Ego, Greed and Hatred have no place to originate from.

This can also be seen in the links of Dependent Origination, right between Feeling and Craving.  If one lets the mind rest just between the two stages, i.e. between the Sensations and the Reactions to the Sensations, then there is peace.  But, that is just my layman's interpretation.

Anyway, I am glad that you have found this peacefulness, whatever it may be called.  And wish for others to find it also.


Psi Out

P.S.  

Earlier today I had also been reading this, which sounds similar, and is funny how you later posted sychronistically about the similar subject matter...

https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com/zen-chan-buddhism-how-to-practice-zen-meditation/
Thank you for the feedback and your different names and definitions of the states. Curiously I find that what you call the "Silent Running" mode is vastly superior to all other modes in all aspects, yet there is something that keeps bringing me out of thaat state a few moments after I go into it. I suppose it is a lack of trust from the different thought-processes, whatever they are. In my case I feel very much like the thought processes are almost like sub personalities themself with their own agenda. Everything wants attention from the consciousness and is sometimes behaving uite disrupting, a bit like disorderly children. It's a bit annoying that this state (if that is what it is) is so easily disrupted, from my (who? perspective this state is simply surperior to all others I have access to and I would wish that I ccould stay in this silence for all eternity without being distracted by rising thoughts.

I looked at the links as well and I firmly agree that the idea of progressive enlightenemth is kind of a red herring distracting us from the fact that the truth is always available in the present moment. All the effort seems like a trick of the mind, which always thinks there needs to be an action to get a result, basically that "You have to work really hard to attain nirvana" when the opposite is true, it's more a cessation of activity that is needed.
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Not Tao, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 997 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
I think there are two aspects to this state you're talking about.  The first is mental stillness, and the second is effortlessness.  If you are seeing the state begin but have trouble maintaining it, you may simply need to practice expending less effort.

Some examples might help.  Mental stillness is developed though some kind of concentration.  You can concentrate on an object, like a mantra, a kasina, or the breath, or you can concentrate formlessly by "staying in the moment" or focusing on the experience of awareness.  Effortlessness is developed by declining judgement, or letting go of negative and positive polarities.  I practice this by observing desires and deciding not to indulge them.

If you can visualize the mind as a cloud for a moment, the normal, untrained mind is very tightly focused, and each particle is moving very fast.  Sensations and thoughts are bumping into eachother and causing a lot of heat and friction.  Concentration is the process of slowing down this movement, so the mind cools down and loses its passions.  However, this requires a continuous effort because, once attention waivers, the mind starts to move again and friction is created once more.  So a good addition to this practice is to expand the cloud and make it more spacious.  This way, as the particles have more freedom to move, you will need less stillness to cool them down.  When the cloud expands far enough, the particles stay cool on their own.

The easiest way to expand the cloud is to cool it down first, so the two aspects work well together.  Perhaps a good way forward from where you are now is to examine the things you see as blocking you from the cooler state and see if you can't cool these blocks individually rather than trying to exclude them from awareness.

A good way to meditate in order to balance both characteristics (cooling and expanding the mind) is to settle with an anchor (some kind of meditation object) and remove judgements of any distracton that comes up.  Instead of using mental power to try to stay in the cooled state, you can simply decline to indulge in the negative reactions keeping you from it.  The difference is that you no longer need to reject things, you can simply let go of them.  What this does is allow the mind to expand as it cools, and this expansion allows the mind to rest effortlessly.  You can stay in this state you're describing without even trying.

I'll try to give an example of the diference from my own experience.  Let's say I'm meditating on the mantra "buddho."  When I breath in, I say "bud" in a long mental tone, and when I breathe out I say "dho" the same way, mentally.  Inevitably, a thought pops up like, "I am hungry," or "I don't like how this person treated me," or my leg itches, etc.  I've found that what I do at this moment makes all the difference.  If there is a negative reaction to the thought, meditation becomes a difficult endeavor.  Tension builds around the idea that I need to reject the thought or feeling and push it away. This is an unsustanable way to practice. Another option is to non-judgementally observe the thought or sensation.  This can result in two things, IME.  Either the thought will drop on its own, or the thought will become stuck.  It can be very difficult to non-judgementally observe something, so even if intentions are good, this kind of meditation can be a bumpy ride.  There is a third option - you can just forget about the distraction completely.  This may seem like the first option, but it's a world of difference.  No matter what it is that distracts you, it's simply mental movement.  You can treat all mental movement equally. It isn't good, and it isn't bad, it's just movement.  These things can be hard to portray exactly, but the key is the way you look at distraction.  In your post, you seem to be averse to thinking. Whatever you're averse to will control you.  If thinking comes up, you've failed!  It's a problem that must be fixed!  Instead, you can just drop the whole problem entierly - drop the concept that there is a problem - and go back to whatever is anchoring you.  It's like hearing a loud noise in a movie theater.  Maybe someone dropped their box of candy while walking up the stairs.  There are a few moments of disorientation as you're pulled away from the movie, but then you just go back to watching when you realize nothing bad happened.  If you're angry at that person for distracting you, it takes longer to get back to the movie.  If everyone who comes into the theater drops their candy, either you get so used to it that you don't even notice when it happens anymore, or you get progressively more angry until you just have to leave and the movie is ruined for you.  Everything that distracts you and heats up the mind is a choice - you're choosing to indulge the desire behind what you're thinking.  If you simply choose to drop those desires instead and forget about the problem entierly, the mind loosens ever so slightly.  There is more space for things to move.  Because of this, things begin to cool down on their own.  The mind has a way if "blooming" at this point.  Awareness moves outward effortlessly.  Things that were problems seem harmless.  Thoughts just stop happening because there is no need for them.

If you feel the need to expend effort to maintain the state, then the good news is that it's much easier than that.  If you practice to expand the mind over time, concentration becomes easier and easier until it just sticks around.  Point your effort towards removing aversion rather than holding the particles of the mind still.  The mind will cool and expand simultaneously.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Not Tao:

AWESOME POST


Thank you thank you thank you, and namaste. That was one hell of an informative post that really helped clarify things for me. Will re-read it a few times and change my non-existent 'practice' accordingly. Much obliged.
Echo 10, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 18 Join Date: 3/25/15 Recent Posts
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Since a while back I've been able to stop talking to myself. What this means is that I "step out" of the internal dialogue temporarily. When this happens there is a very clean feeling of something similar to relief and everything just unfolds with an almost sacred feeling of spontaneous movements and thoughts. From my perspective it seems as the 'control' of the body is handed over to the body itself, with no interference from the mind.

When I interact with people this is almost automatic and I have been able to stay as "pure awareness" (or whatever) when I am interacting, what is new is that I seem to have easy access to this state of no-thought even when there is nothing to focus on in the "outside world" (I don't believe in an inside/outside, that seems to be just an illusion of the mind).

It seems possible to surrender to this "body intelligence" in any situation, which also seem to cause all the interactions of the body/mind system to be MUCH more skillfull. When I stay in "no thoughts" both verbal interactions and physical movement is much more fluid, natural and graceful.

Would be interesting to know how this fits with different buddhist maps and experiences.

Namaste!
Mattias

Hello Mattias,

The process whereby you surrender control of your body to your body is what I call faith and surrender. In the Reich and Lowen tradition is it is called vulnerability, surrender, motility and leads to the unconscious state of self-regulation (no ego).

Common proponents of bodily surrender include: Wilhelm Reich and Alexender Lowen.

The contract that you made and the disease you experienced upon discovering the foreign and parasitic nature of your ego is what Jed McKenna calls First Step.

The sinking experience of no-self or no thought which you say requires bodily immobility to experience is what is experienced by a person called a 'Majzoob' by Meher Baba. An example of this no-self state would be the 'mast' Bernadette Roberts, and the initial experience of the sage Ramana Maharshi.

The disgust at the 'self-view' you felt upon discovering your ego is called dukkha, by the recluse Gotama. 'Self-view' being form, feelings, perceptions, formations and consciousness.

Cheerio bruddah. Hope the info is useful.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Echo 10:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Since a while back I've been able to stop talking to myself. What this means is that I "step out" of the internal dialogue temporarily. When this happens there is a very clean feeling of something similar to relief and everything just unfolds with an almost sacred feeling of spontaneous movements and thoughts. From my perspective it seems as the 'control' of the body is handed over to the body itself, with no interference from the mind.

When I interact with people this is almost automatic and I have been able to stay as "pure awareness" (or whatever) when I am interacting, what is new is that I seem to have easy access to this state of no-thought even when there is nothing to focus on in the "outside world" (I don't believe in an inside/outside, that seems to be just an illusion of the mind).

It seems possible to surrender to this "body intelligence" in any situation, which also seem to cause all the interactions of the body/mind system to be MUCH more skillfull. When I stay in "no thoughts" both verbal interactions and physical movement is much more fluid, natural and graceful.

Would be interesting to know how this fits with different buddhist maps and experiences.

Namaste!
Mattias

Hello Mattias,

The process whereby you surrender control of your body to your body is what I call faith and surrender. In the Reich and Lowen tradition is it is called vulnerability, surrender, motility and leads to the unconscious state of self-regulation (no ego).

Common proponents of bodily surrender include: Wilhelm Reich and Alexender Lowen.

The contract that you made and the disease you experienced upon discovering the foreign and parasitic nature of your ego is what Jed McKenna calls First Step.

The sinking experience of no-self or no thought which you say requires bodily immobility to experience is what is experienced by a person called a 'Majzoob' by Meher Baba. An example of this no-self state would be the 'mast' Bernadette Roberts, and the initial experience of the sage Ramana Maharshi.

The disgust at the 'self-view' you felt upon discovering your ego is called dukkha, by the recluse Gotama. 'Self-view' being form, feelings, perceptions, formations and consciousness.

Cheerio bruddah. Hope the info is useful.


The revulsion when I finally "saw" the ego was actually immense. I immediatly resolved to either get rid of it or kill myself, it was so repugnant. Your description of it as parasitic and foreign is spot on. It's absolutely disgusting. My question now is, does really everyone have something *this* disgusting in them? If so... eeew. emoticon
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Laurel Carrington, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 441 Join Date: 4/7/14 Recent Posts
I would interject at this point that the Brahmaviharas are the antidote to hate and disgust. Our egos are the way they are and it might be better to look on yours as an anxious child. Have compassion for yourself and don't get stuck in disgust as a permanent state of mind. 

ETA: Killing oneself or one's ego is a form of harm. Investigation with clarity and compassion--that's what you need to do. 
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: I can stop talking to myself

Posts: 131 Join Date: 10/26/13 Recent Posts
Laurel Carrington:
I would interject at this point that the Brahmaviharas are the antidote to hate and disgust. Our egos are the way they are and it might be better to look on yours as an anxious child. Have compassion for yourself and don't get stuck in disgust as a permanent state of mind. 

ETA: Killing oneself or one's ego is a form of harm. Investigation with clarity and compassion--that's what you need to do. 


Killing ones ego is a form of harm...? How could it be when the object being 'killed' is not alive, rather an anti-living foreign parasite. I have more compassion for cancer cells than for the ego and I don't agree with anything you said. Sure, handling it as little children or such will work to an extent, but keeping these "little children" around is like refusing to get treatment for the last cancer cells because you feel sorry for them. My compassion is reserved for sentient and living creatures, not the crazy jailor program that's running in my logic/language processor pretending to be me. Frankly I don't think you've seen what I've seen but are just echoing some of your favorite teachings. 

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