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Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment

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Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 4/18/15 4:44 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Derek 4/18/15 5:50 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 4/18/15 6:32 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mark 4/18/15 12:57 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Pål 4/18/15 12:58 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Ian And 4/18/15 1:20 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment T DC 4/18/15 4:03 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Noah 4/18/15 6:33 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment goran c backlund 4/22/15 3:50 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Robert 5/8/15 2:07 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 5/8/15 3:41 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Robert 5/9/15 1:19 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 5/9/15 12:44 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Robert 5/9/15 1:58 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 5/12/15 7:09 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Robert 5/12/15 11:55 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 5/12/15 12:28 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Robert 5/12/15 12:59 PM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 5/13/15 7:25 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Robert 5/18/15 2:50 AM
RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg 5/12/15 12:46 PM
This thought came into my awareness in this mornings meditation: Do all thoughts have to cease for someone to be enlightened?

I've been struggling with thought activity ever since I had my first awakening and exposure to buddhism, previous to that I *was* my thought activity. Unfortunately it has still not stopped completely and I am simply wondering if "Zen mind" is needed on a permanent basis for enlightenment to be the case.

The second question is about emotions. I no longer suffer from most of the emotions that used to plague me, but there are still emotional wounds, Mainly grief, anger and guilt. In fact I'd say that except for those three I have no troubles left, hate, envy, greed etc has left me completely alone for a long time and fear is only present when the physical existence is threatened. Same question here, do all negative emotions need to fall away before Enlightenement can be attained?

Currently I've programmed myself to be 'allergic' to thoughts which in itself causes suffering, because I am resisting the thoughts that arise. I can "step out" of the mental dialogue or attain a quiet mind through effort in meditation, but the monkey mind keeps coming back. The thoughts themselves however have improved a lot. They are more about trying to improve the world, my situation (I'm homeless and in a bit of a bad situation) or others. Purely negative, manipulative (somewhat) and aggressive thoughts have almost vanished completely,

But basically the question is, does all thoughts and all negative emotions need to cease or are thoughts and negative emotions a part of the enlightened state,

Ps. I realize that a lot of arguments can be made such as "there is nothing to attain" etc. but please let's keep it in the story line of the ego that was part in writing this.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 5:50 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
let's keep it in the story line of the ego that was part in writing this.


There's your problem right there.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 6:32 AM as a reply to Derek.
Derek Cameron:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
let's keep it in the story line of the ego that was part in writing this.


There's your problem right there.

That was the least helpful post I could have imagined. It was a straight forward question, does all thoughts and negative emotion have to disappear or will there still be thinking and negative emotions after enlightenment. If you don't know or don't want to answer the question, at least don't pollute the internet with unhelpful and obvious one liners.

I have an ego, I know that it is the problem, I am trying to navigate in the field of knowledge about how to liberate myself, don't be a jerk about it,

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 12:57 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
The BATGAP interviews might be useful so you can hear people talking about their experiences. Gary Weber would probably say yes, Kenneth Folk would probably say no. The noble eightfold path suggests there is a lot more to it than a mental state but I assume you know that. Best wishes.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 12:58 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Depends on what model of enlightenment you are using. If I understand it correctly, the kind of enlightenment MCTB points to does not require 24/7 thoughtlessness. Neither does suttaic Arahantship, but it's definition seems to include there being no more (clinging to) attraction, aversion or feeling of "I am" (conceit).

OT:
Om du är både meditatör och hemlös kanske det vore värt att bli munk eller anagarika? Dom här kanske tar emot aspiranter, jag vet inte: 

http://www.buddhistvihara.se/SBV-SV.htm 

gammal sida tyvärr, vet inte vad som hände med den nya. 

Bara en tanke. Lycka till, hoppas verkligen det löser sig!

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 1:20 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
The thoughts themselves however have improved a lot. They are more about trying to improve the world, my situation (I'm homeless and in a bit of a bad situation) or others.

But basically the question is, does all thoughts and all negative emotions need to cease or are thoughts and negative emotions a part of the enlightened state?

...does all thoughts and negative emotion have to disappear or will there still be thinking and negative emotions after enlightenment?

Hello Mattias,

One of the first things you need to address is your physical situation so as to change whatever negatives there are in your mental situation. The need for physical and mental well being is strong in all sentient beings. You cannot think straight if you are constantly concerned about your physical and existential well being. Homelessness need not be a negative situation unless it affects one's emotions and sense of well being. Once you have a plan to resolve this circumstance and are able to put it into motion, things can progress more or less naturally.

To answer your question, thoughts and negative emotions are a natural part of the enlightened state. It is how one deals with these that makes the difference. Seek to improve your situation so that it does not distract you from having a calm mind. If that means having to think about possible solutions to your physical situation, then so be it. It's only when you don't confront reality that negative mental and emotional states can begin to set in and multiply (or proliferate).

There is a book that I will recommend to you for reading once you are able to regain a more satisfactory living condition. Right now, though, your focus should be on how to go about improving your living condition in order to gain "peace of mind" in dealing with that situation. When you have peace of mind, solutions to your condition will occur in the mind that were perhaps being distracted from occurring before. Keep an open mind and skilfully confront whatever obstacles there are that face you.

The title and author of that book is: Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought, by Bhikkhu Nanananda. This book will help you to better understand the nature of the kind of thoughts (papanca or a proliferation of speculative thoughts) that may seem to be bothering you. Once you can see them for what they are, they no longer have any power over you.

Initially, though, one needs to address the immediate source of dissatisfaction (if indeed the condition of homelessness is contributing to that feeling of dissatisfaction), before attempting to deal with making progress on the path. Set up the condition (i.e. becoming at ease) for success in your endeavors, and success in them will follow.

In peace,
Ian

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 4:03 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Hi Mattias!

From your post, it sounded as though you think that in order to attain enlightenment, one must destroy all one's thoughts and emotions.  However, it is not that one must first destroy one's thoughts in order for enlightenment to be revealed, instead when one attains enlightenment, in that moment, delusory thoughts are destroyed.

If you have read MCTB, or heard of stream entry and the latter paths, these paths represent a gradual progression in attainment, toward enlightenment.  The moment of obtaining a path is a moment of insight, in which we see our attatchment for what it is and release it; thus an attainment (progressive enlightenment) itself is the destruction of a certain set of beliefs, or fixed patterns of perception.

I would say do not worry too much about the end of though or emotion, because in my experience the end/balancing of these two factors comes far down the path, once one has already attained full enlightenment.  For your situation (I do not know your particulars, but) I would focus more on cultivating a stable meditation practice, and perhaps read MCTB if you have not done so.

Cheers!

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/18/15 6:33 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias,

I'm probably not qualified to answer your question from my own experience, but here are some ways I have grappled with similar question.  One way of modelling enlightenment which I find helpful is that technical fourth path makes you a "complete" or "total" person in that you are freed to exist completely with the fullness of each moment (I got this idea from an archived Vincent Horn post).  The nonsticky perception gained through technical path attainments is not the same as the results of years of purification after natural processing of these attainments (both Chuck Kasmire and Daniel Ingram have commented on spontaneous and inexplicable events in their energy body with real physical effects after 4th path), as well as purposeful concentration and morality improvements/explorations.  So there is being a "complete" person and there is being a fully "purified" person (not that I believe in perfection).  Anyhoo, my theory is that negative emotions and thought patterns continue to be lessened after technical 4th path.    

Also, since you used the phrase "Zen mind", I looked back into Suzuki Roshi's 'Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind' and read his chapter by the same name.  For Suzuki, the experience of Zen mind is beyond thinking and feeling mind.  I think this is one and the same with what is called "cessation and fruition" in the Theravada.  So, I think only a taste of "Zen Mind" is needed to reach an enlightened state, as oppossed to continuous contact being necessary.  

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
4/22/15 3:50 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Hi Mattias!

Thoughts continue on as before after enlightenment, only they are not experienced as "thoughts", that is, as observed mental objects, but instead merely as think-ing, or "modulations" in the field of experiencing. Once their nondual aspect becomes apparent, they can no longer justifiably be called thoughts anymore; which is why some people say that thoughts stop, yet thinking remains.

Also, check out my article on emotions.

http://www.uncoveringlife.com/emotions/

Göran

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/8/15 2:07 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
This thought came into my awareness in this mornings meditation: Do all thoughts have to cease for someone to be enlightened?
No. And Enlightenment doesn't happen to "someone". It happens to Reality that actually is already beyond Enlightenment and Samsara (can reality be found though, where or what is it? Does the looking for it exist even? What do existence and nonexistence even mean, aren't these just thoughts? What is a thought?). Or it could be said that Enlightenment is the realization that there can be no realization, no Enlightenment nor anyone to have it. The past is a dream and even the whole dream of the past, present and future is just nothing, not even nothing (it's beyond concepts). Nothing has really existed but also nothing has really been nonexistent either, these are both just concepts and neither of them are true. Nor is this that I just wrote about the concepts.

In the end it's all just really simple. Concepts or no concepts makes no difference.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/8/15 3:41 PM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
This thought came into my awareness in this mornings meditation: Do all thoughts have to cease for someone to be enlightened?
No. And Enlightenment doesn't happen to "someone". It happens to Reality that actually is already beyond Enlightenment and Samsara (can reality be found though, where or what is it? Does the looking for it exist even? What do existence and nonexistence even mean, aren't these just thoughts? What is a thought?). Or it could be said that Enlightenment is the realization that there can be no realization, no Enlightenment nor anyone to have it. The past is a dream and even the whole dream of the past, present and future is just nothing, not even nothing (it's beyond concepts). Nothing has really existed but also nothing has really been nonexistent either, these are both just concepts and neither of them are true. Nor is this that I just wrote about the concepts.

In the end it's all just really simple. Concepts or no concepts makes no difference.

Thank you. It's cool though, this body/mind system is clear and available for reality now. Just the mind part having some issues adjusting to the Truth, which is as you say, beyong description. It's fucking hilarious though.

Namaste

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/9/15 1:19 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
I think I should clarify once more (for anyone having read what I wrote) that what I said is not the truth. These pointers can be seen as being relatively true when investigated but it's not "The Truth" as some fixed thing (a fixed "Truth" doesn't exist). These are just a descriptions or perspectives among others.

Bodhidharma said it better, I really like this quote: "Everything sacred, nothing sacred.".

What I'm trying to point out with this post is that there is no "Truth" that is somehow divorced or different from everything and anything that appears. When someone (like me) uses the word "Truth" it is only meant as a pointer for the mind. It is another concept but it's a concept that the mind cannot grasp that well. The concept of "Truth" is only meant to undo the fixation on all the other concepts after which this too will drop. Meaning that it too will be seen as a mere concept and not really true, nothing to be taken seriously or to get hypnotized by (it did have its purpose though, not denying that).

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/9/15 12:44 PM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
I think I should clarify once more (for anyone having read what I wrote) that what I said is not the truth. These pointers can be seen as being relatively true when investigated but it's not "The Truth" as some fixed thing (a fixed "Truth" doesn't exist). These are just a descriptions or perspectives among others.

Bodhidharma said it better, I really like this quote: "Everything sacred, nothing sacred.".

What I'm trying to point out with this post is that there is no "Truth" that is somehow divorced or different from everything and anything that appears. When someone (like me) uses the word "Truth" it is only meant as a pointer for the mind. It is another concept but it's a concept that the mind cannot grasp that well. The concept of "Truth" is only meant to undo the fixation on all the other concepts after which this too will drop. Meaning that it too will be seen as a mere concept and not really true, nothing to be taken seriously or to get hypnotized by (it did have its purpose though, not denying that).

I'm of the Jesus lineage now so this body/mind system prefer that mythology, as in the gnosis, not the religious dogma. Where satan represents the ego and separation from God. But it's just words and concepts that cause more for the mind the cling to. My quest is pretty much done, got some minimal stuff that will sort itself out but enlightenment had already happened now and it is more a question of embodiment (something I find to be understated in spiritual teachings).

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/9/15 1:58 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Do you want any teacher/speaker recommendations regarding the post-awakening stuff?

edit:

Btw. Don't confuse awakening with enlightenment. There's still a ways to go. Like you say, to embody the realization.

If the experience is that the "truth" comes and goes, opens and closes, the work's not done yet. Like it says in the Sandokai (if I remember correctly); To encounter the Absolute is not yet Enlightenment.

Also what I'm starting to understand and to find out by still listening to some teachings and paying attention to the experience of opening and closing is that even in that state which feels like absolute truth, freedom and openness, there still is a very subtle sense of a witness or a witnessing habit to that state. It's like a spiritual super-ego, a "true witness" (note the quotes) that is monitoring the states and tries to be "sincerily vigilant with thoughts". But even this insubstantial witness is still a subtle trance. I'm glad that I wrote this because this makes me too more aware on how it is these cycles still keep turning.

And vigilance and sincerity are needed but they can be hijacked by the "witness ego" it seems. This stuff gets really subtle. Good to know I guess.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/12/15 7:09 AM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
Do you want any teacher/speaker recommendations regarding the post-awakening stuff?

edit:

Btw. Don't confuse awakening with enlightenment. There's still a ways to go. Like you say, to embody the realization.

If the experience is that the "truth" comes and goes, opens and closes, the work's not done yet. Like it says in the Sandokai (if I remember correctly); To encounter the Absolute is not yet Enlightenment.

Also what I'm starting to understand and to find out by still listening to some teachings and paying attention to the experience of opening and closing is that even in that state which feels like absolute truth, freedom and openness, there still is a very subtle sense of a witness or a witnessing habit to that state. It's like a spiritual super-ego, a "true witness" (note the quotes) that is monitoring the states and tries to be "sincerily vigilant with thoughts". But even this insubstantial witness is still a subtle trance. I'm glad that I wrote this because this makes me too more aware on how it is these cycles still keep turning.

And vigilance and sincerity are needed but they can be hijacked by the "witness ego" it seems. This stuff gets really subtle. Good to know I guess.
Thank you but there is no need for a teacher recommendation. I'm part of a small group of other enlightened people that are working to liberate themselves fully from the ego and we give eachother all the support we need. We have satsang online every day. There's still a lot to do, but only the illusion of somebody to do it. No more insights are needed for this body/mind system, it's simply a matter of energies being cleared from the system and less and less attachement to the ego-stuff.

I do however wish to warn against repressing the ego, I feel this is what other enlightened people have done in the past. By not dealing with or expressing shames, guilts and hangups you will only feed the subconscious, forcing it to bubble up later in behavioral patterns. I think this is the main reason spiritual teachers have "fallen from grace" in the past. Better get everything out in the open. The ego stays alive by having secrets, so get rid of all the secrets and you're free of the ego.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/12/15 11:55 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Thank you but there is no need for a teacher recommendation. I'm part of a small group of other enlightened people that are working to liberate themselves fully from the ego and we give eachother all the support we need. We have satsang online every day. There's still a lot to do, but only the illusion of somebody to do it. No more insights are needed for this body/mind system, it's simply a matter of energies being cleared from the system and less and less attachement to the ego-stuff.

I do however wish to warn against repressing the ego, I feel this is what other enlightened people have done in the past. By not dealing with or expressing shames, guilts and hangups you will only feed the subconscious, forcing it to bubble up later in behavioral patterns. I think this is the main reason spiritual teachers have "fallen from grace" in the past. Better get everything out in the open. The ego stays alive by having secrets, so get rid of all the secrets and you're free of the ego.
The spiritual super-ego that I wrote about. That's it right there in bold. ^

Doesn't matter how well you know the nondual language, it's going to be a tail chase. It usually happens though (gets formed around awakening experiences, a new identity that is not seen as such) so this is nothing new in a sense.

Understand that the ego can talk about the ego too... And have plans of getting rid of ego etc. Having the ideas that there still is something to be purified and so on. This thing is so common it's kind of funny, although it will become extremely frustrating. But it's part of the apparent journey and at some point this trance will be seen too.

It can feel like true sincerity and vigilance so it can be very difficult to see that it's just more mind stuff that is just cycling around.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/12/15 12:28 PM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:
Thank you but there is no need for a teacher recommendation. I'm part of a small group of other enlightened people that are working to liberate themselves fully from the ego and we give eachother all the support we need. We have satsang online every day. There's still a lot to do, but only the illusion of somebody to do it. No more insights are needed for this body/mind system, it's simply a matter of energies being cleared from the system and less and less attachement to the ego-stuff.

I do however wish to warn against repressing the ego, I feel this is what other enlightened people have done in the past. By not dealing with or expressing shames, guilts and hangups you will only feed the subconscious, forcing it to bubble up later in behavioral patterns. I think this is the main reason spiritual teachers have "fallen from grace" in the past. Better get everything out in the open. The ego stays alive by having secrets, so get rid of all the secrets and you're free of the ego.
The spiritual super-ego that I wrote about. That's it right there in bold. ^

Doesn't matter how well you know the nondual language, it's going to be a tail chase. It usually happens though (gets formed around awakening experiences, a new identity that is not seen as such) so this is nothing new in a sense.

Understand that the ego can talk about the ego too... And have plans of getting rid of ego etc. Having the ideas that there still is something to be purified and so on. This thing is so common it's kind of funny, although it will become extremely frustrating. But it's part of the apparent journey and at some point this trance will be seen too.

It can feel like true sincerity and vigilance so it can be very difficult to see that it's just more mind stuff that is just cycling around.

Please stop projecting. This ego is not a problem anymore and there is nothing wrong with having a sangha. If your ego has trouble with it you need to deal with it on your end. There is no "plan" here, all "plans" are mental constructions and this system does no longer allow for any mental process to influence what happens. There is also not much "true sincerity" or "vigilance", except in observing what is happening. All "seriousness" is also ego. 

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/12/15 12:46 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Actually I have had several spiritual teachers that I would like to thank, come to think of it.

Pamela Wilson who has a very playful and inclusive method of self inquiry.

Doshin Michael Nelson who is an amazing and very funny Zen master in the Hollow Bones order.

Isaac Shapiro who is in the Ramana Maharshi and Papaji lineage, and and amzing empath together with his partner Meiki.

Marc Gafni who is a former rabbi and now integral spirituality teacher with a great heart and passion for communicating.


I'd warmly recommend any of them to anyone who feel the resonance. I think at least three of them have been interviewed by Rick Archer from the "Buddha at the Gas Pump" show.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/12/15 12:59 PM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:

this system does no longer allow for any mental process to influence what happens.

How do you know this? Ego likes definitive statements and fixed conclusions btw.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/13/15 7:25 AM as a reply to Robert.
Robert:
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:

this system does no longer allow for any mental process to influence what happens.

How do you know this? Ego likes definitive statements and fixed conclusions btw.

The thought process does not influence what the body does anymore. How do "I" know this. It's not the I that knows this just as it is not the "I" that is writing this, it happens by itself. Thoughts are just percieved as annoyances and any identification with them only last for a few seconds at worst.

RE: Straight question about thoughts, emotions and Enlightenment
Answer
5/18/15 2:50 AM as a reply to Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg.
Mattias Wilhelm Stenberg:


The thought process does not influence what the body does anymore. How do "I" know this. It's not the I that knows this just as it is not the "I" that is writing this, it happens by itself. Thoughts are just percieved as annoyances and any identification with them only last for a few seconds at worst.


If thoughts are perceived as annoyances it means that there is identification with a "bigger" thought going on. Which sounds like "beyond thought", or "nothingness", "no one" etc. Those can either point to the truth but they can also function as just another concept that is being believed in. And there can still exist a subject (illusory one of course) to the spacious and empty state that is perceived as "no-self".

By the look of the last sentence there seems to be a belief that thought is bad and should not arise at least the way it does now. Without that blind spot annoyance about thoughts in general would not be there in the mix. Thoughts can and do freely arise but the annoyance with thoughts in general is unnecessary and implies a "transcended super-ego". Although annoyance can still arise in certain situations from time to time but that doesn't mean that there is necessarily identity as the super-ego. But if something keeps repeating that is something to be seen and recognized.

So thought is not the problem but the one (belief/identity, feels like a real separate subject, the "real" one) who has the opinion that thoughts are somehow different than everything else and that they could affect anything in reality is the problem. Start seeing how that habit keeps cycling around, giving (negative-) importance to thoughts that spontaneously arise. It also tries to keep its composure, not to make a mistake, not to "fall under"... That is what needs to be seen as not true. If that subtle habit is not recognized it will keep the show going indefinitely. It will look like the truth/emptiness revealing itself and then contracting, revealing and contracting and so on... "There is no one here" is just a learned concept and a belief of a separate self (that you still experience to be without being conscious of it) if it prevents the simple recognition of how this thing keeps playing out. All practices at this point are means to keep the super-ego alive and well, they're just blind force of habit. Stopping and recognizing are not a practice. More important than any practice (at this point) is the willingness to let it all go.

You (emptiness) can keep noticing the thoughts as they arise but don't form an opinion about them. See how it is that they pull the attention into identification. The identification is not "on that side" but it's on "this side".

I mean this is how it usually goes. It's from what I've seen in my own experience and heard from other people and teachers.