Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/20/15 1:47 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/18/15 7:56 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/18/15 8:04 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 2:48 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 10:43 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:12 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:14 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:16 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:19 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:22 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:23 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/19/15 11:26 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Chris M 9/26/17 5:29 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah D 9/26/17 10:14 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge CJMacie 4/19/15 11:37 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/20/15 2:15 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/20/15 2:36 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 4/20/15 2:02 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/22/15 3:31 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/22/15 4:00 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 4/23/15 10:53 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/23/15 5:09 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/23/15 5:15 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/27/15 10:31 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/28/15 4:06 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/29/15 5:22 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 4/30/15 6:37 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/7/15 8:00 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/10/15 10:15 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/15/15 11:22 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/15/15 12:10 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 5/15/15 4:12 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/15/15 2:45 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/22/15 5:54 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/22/15 6:21 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 5/23/15 6:05 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/24/15 1:36 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/24/15 2:47 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Jake 5/24/15 3:41 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/25/15 12:49 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Jake 5/25/15 8:22 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/25/15 10:23 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/26/15 1:41 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 5/28/15 7:32 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/1/15 5:41 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 6/1/15 2:15 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/1/15 10:07 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/2/15 2:35 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/4/15 3:38 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/4/15 9:15 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/7/15 9:08 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 6/8/15 4:14 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/9/15 11:02 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/10/15 7:03 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/14/15 8:45 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/15/15 4:35 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/16/15 7:06 AM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Noah 6/20/15 1:38 PM
RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge Not Tao 6/20/15 10:40 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/24/15 9:32 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/24/15 9:41 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/26/15 9:33 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/26/15 9:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 6/26/15 10:23 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/26/15 10:51 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 6/26/15 10:56 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/27/15 2:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/28/15 4:49 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 6/28/15 11:05 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 6/28/15 12:42 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/28/15 9:13 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/1/15 7:39 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/6/15 3:02 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/6/15 4:15 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/9/15 12:35 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/9/15 2:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 7/9/15 6:11 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/9/15 10:11 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 7/9/15 10:41 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/9/15 11:37 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Dream Walker 7/10/15 12:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/10/15 3:05 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/11/15 12:01 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 7/11/15 12:26 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/11/15 12:35 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/11/15 5:07 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/11/15 5:28 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/21/15 12:21 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/22/15 1:15 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 7/11/15 12:19 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Derek 6/26/15 10:44 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/22/15 11:56 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/27/15 11:24 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/2/15 3:14 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Derek 8/1/15 6:52 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/2/15 1:08 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Derek 8/2/15 4:40 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/2/15 11:44 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/15/15 5:10 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/15/15 7:43 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/19/15 1:13 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/19/15 7:54 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/19/15 10:15 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/19/15 11:41 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/20/15 1:51 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/20/15 7:23 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/20/15 11:39 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/20/15 12:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/20/15 5:57 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/21/15 8:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/21/15 8:41 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/21/15 9:04 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/21/15 9:10 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/22/15 12:47 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 8/23/15 9:38 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 9/20/15 3:27 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Not Tao 9/20/15 4:19 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 9/20/15 4:30 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 10/1/15 7:10 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 10/30/15 2:58 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 10/30/15 3:19 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 10/30/15 7:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 10/30/15 1:54 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/4/15 2:53 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/24/15 1:16 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/24/15 1:05 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/24/15 1:41 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/24/15 3:28 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/24/15 3:57 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/24/15 4:51 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/24/15 11:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/25/15 1:08 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/25/15 12:02 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/25/15 12:58 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/25/15 1:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/25/15 1:19 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Nikolai . 11/25/15 3:14 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/26/15 9:58 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Nikolai . 11/26/15 1:07 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 11/26/15 1:22 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/28/15 5:58 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/28/15 7:05 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 11/28/15 7:23 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/3/17 9:44 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/1/15 1:00 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/1/15 1:15 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 12/1/15 7:13 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/1/15 1:21 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/2/15 12:03 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/3/15 5:25 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/4/15 4:46 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/3/17 9:45 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/6/15 4:19 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/6/15 12:35 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/6/15 3:09 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/6/15 11:48 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/8/15 4:09 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/8/15 6:35 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/8/15 6:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/8/15 3:59 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/8/15 5:33 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/9/15 7:12 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/9/15 8:30 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/9/15 12:22 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/10/15 7:40 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/10/15 7:54 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/10/15 10:54 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Dream Walker 12/10/15 3:25 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/10/15 5:56 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Dream Walker 12/10/15 7:31 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/11/15 1:44 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox tom moylan 12/11/15 5:24 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/11/15 5:55 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox tom moylan 12/11/15 6:58 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/11/15 1:13 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox tom moylan 12/11/15 1:45 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/11/15 2:33 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 12/11/15 4:52 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/11/15 5:06 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/11/15 7:52 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 12/12/15 11:02 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/12/15 7:47 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 12/12/15 11:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/17/15 7:53 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox tom moylan 12/17/15 8:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chad Atlas 12/17/15 12:18 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/17/15 12:54 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Dream Walker 12/17/15 1:52 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/17/15 6:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Dream Walker 12/17/15 6:48 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/11/15 7:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/10/15 6:38 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/10/15 6:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 3/9/17 8:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 11/24/15 7:00 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/3/17 9:43 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/3/17 9:41 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Not Tao 8/3/15 4:25 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/3/15 1:02 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Not Tao 8/3/15 7:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 8/5/15 8:22 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox pieva 11/2/21 8:37 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/18/15 11:29 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/18/15 11:56 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/19/15 11:21 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/18/15 11:49 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/20/15 11:28 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/21/15 11:44 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/24/15 2:48 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/28/15 1:11 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/28/15 9:11 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/31/15 1:04 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/31/15 1:59 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/31/15 2:09 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 12/31/15 2:54 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/31/15 2:59 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/1/16 10:43 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 12/31/15 4:32 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/4/16 9:10 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/2/16 5:00 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/3/16 3:09 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/3/16 8:15 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/4/16 11:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 1/4/16 11:22 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/6/16 2:22 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/6/16 2:28 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/6/16 4:24 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 1/7/16 3:19 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/7/16 7:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris 1/7/16 9:37 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/8/16 4:13 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/8/16 5:12 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/8/16 5:36 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/9/16 3:28 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/9/16 8:42 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/11/16 11:51 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/12/16 12:41 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris 1/12/16 1:19 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/12/16 2:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/12/16 9:52 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/13/16 6:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/15/16 12:45 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris 1/15/16 6:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/16/16 1:41 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/16/16 11:38 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/17/16 12:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/17/16 8:53 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/17/16 4:14 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/17/16 8:08 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/22/16 11:58 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/23/16 5:12 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/24/16 1:08 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Mark 1/25/16 5:39 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/25/16 1:11 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Mark 1/26/16 5:54 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/26/16 5:42 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/27/16 2:32 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/30/16 5:09 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/30/16 10:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/31/16 10:08 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/31/16 2:50 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 1/31/16 8:35 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/2/16 4:18 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/3/16 9:16 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/19/16 9:28 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/22/16 3:58 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/23/16 3:12 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 2/24/16 12:33 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/24/16 11:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/24/16 11:40 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 2/24/16 11:14 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/24/16 8:29 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 2/24/16 9:39 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/26/16 4:07 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 2/26/16 5:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/26/16 11:47 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Laurel Carrington 2/26/16 9:45 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/26/16 11:54 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/27/16 12:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 2/27/16 11:07 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Laurel Carrington 2/27/16 11:48 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/27/16 11:51 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 2/27/16 12:04 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 2/27/16 12:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 2/27/16 12:31 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Laurel Carrington 2/27/16 12:25 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Laurel Carrington 2/27/16 12:28 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/4/16 1:46 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/4/16 2:08 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Russell . 3/7/16 9:18 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/8/16 3:28 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Russell . 3/8/16 9:01 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 3/8/16 12:34 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/12/16 12:02 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/22/16 2:02 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/29/16 12:33 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 4/14/16 11:07 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 4/14/16 11:15 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 4/30/16 3:00 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 4/30/16 6:59 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 5/28/16 6:40 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 5/28/16 7:59 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 5/28/16 3:12 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 5/28/16 4:17 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 5/31/16 8:32 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/4/16 1:30 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/11/16 5:18 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/14/16 7:04 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 6/27/16 4:56 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/13/16 6:26 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/14/16 11:50 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/25/16 1:45 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/25/16 8:58 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/26/16 9:38 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 7/27/16 1:09 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 11/21/16 11:38 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 12/20/16 9:02 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 12/25/16 12:46 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 12/27/16 11:45 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 12/29/16 9:50 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 12/31/16 1:25 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/3/17 10:49 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 1/4/17 5:37 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/4/17 9:26 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 1/4/17 1:37 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/4/17 4:42 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/8/17 5:37 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/14/17 8:47 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/17/17 12:25 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/17/17 12:34 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/22/17 11:52 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/24/17 11:47 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 1/29/17 4:22 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/29/17 6:32 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/1/17 11:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 2/2/17 8:31 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/2/17 4:12 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Derek2 2/3/17 6:11 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/3/17 9:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/10/17 9:23 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:05 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/17/17 3:24 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/18/17 3:00 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 2/17/17 2:28 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/18/17 1:40 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 2/18/17 6:21 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/18/17 2:47 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Caro 2/23/17 12:48 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/23/17 8:44 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/25/17 3:36 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:05 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:04 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Geoff W 2/24/17 11:01 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:01 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/15/17 11:48 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 3/16/17 5:42 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/16/17 10:21 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 11:01 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 10:59 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 3/27/17 10:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/27/17 2:32 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox J C 3/27/17 3:53 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/27/17 5:12 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/27/17 5:16 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/28/17 7:37 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 3/28/17 10:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 3/28/17 11:24 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 10:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 10:56 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 4/15/17 4:15 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/15/17 10:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/25/17 10:57 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/16/17 9:51 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 4/20/17 3:50 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/20/17 10:42 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 4/23/17 5:38 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/30/17 1:21 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/24/17 7:21 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 5/8/17 8:20 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 5/13/17 8:25 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 5/16/17 5:45 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 5/23/17 7:44 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 5/24/17 8:10 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/7/17 8:06 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/13/17 12:08 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 6/13/17 6:02 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/13/17 8:07 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/17/17 12:26 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/18/17 3:35 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/20/17 1:54 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 7/18/17 3:55 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 7/24/17 11:17 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 7/24/17 11:54 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 8/8/17 11:18 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 8/12/17 1:10 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 8/21/17 12:07 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 9/3/17 12:00 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 9/22/17 2:32 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 9/26/17 6:15 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox seth tapper 9/26/17 8:05 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 9/26/17 10:16 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Yilun Ong 4/4/18 5:26 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/4/18 8:57 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Yilun Ong 4/5/18 12:02 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/6/18 11:41 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 4/6/18 11:50 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox bernd the broter 6/13/17 7:10 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 6/13/17 8:07 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox shargrol 2/22/17 6:02 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah D 2/22/17 11:06 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/8/16 1:20 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/9/16 2:03 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 3/11/16 10:32 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Noah 3/11/16 11:16 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Laurel Carrington 3/5/16 11:17 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 2/27/16 2:50 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris M 1/23/16 11:42 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 1/9/16 11:50 PM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Chris 1/8/16 8:48 AM
RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox Eva Nie 1/9/16 11:27 PM
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/20/15 1:47 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/18/15 7:35 PM

Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Okay, I realize I was polluting my actual "practice" log with lots of obsessive conceptualizing.  However, because of the way my mind works, it would be a mistake to try to eliminate this thinking completely.  I tend to need to "figure things out" before they really become embedded in my mind/useful to me in action.  Obviously the direct, perceptual-baseline effects of path attainments do not belong in this category, as they are automatic and nonconceptual.  However, everything else about "what to do about it", does.  Given that this theorizing-philosophizing-thinking-habit is part of my practice, I have decided to start this log.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/18/15 7:56 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/18/15 7:56 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Reflection on reading the essay's in Thannissaro's "Noble Strategy" collection ( http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/NobleStrategy.pdf )

-The general theme is one of humility and action-orientation.  Both of these things are against the grain of self-absorption which has become such a powerful force in my life.  The basis for these themes is in actual insight:  "There are two levels to Right View, focusing (1) on the results of our actions in the narrative of our lives and (2) on the issues of stress and its cessation within the mind."  Insight is not just the experience and permanent side-effects of cessation.  Insight is also on the personal narrative level.  
        Furthermore, the study of this type of insight runs just as deep as the study of meditation.  It is not just a matter of common sense, good morals, a sense of humor, a sense of kindness and a cultivation of discipline.  My personal impression is that this straight-forward notion is what is expressed in MCTB.  This isthe way I have interpreted various sources within the pragmatic-dharma-sphere.  I may very well be wrong in my assumptions about what these writers think.  I am not projecting or holding anyone up to any standards or types of judgements.  Rather, I am noticing what my current paradigm is and trying to expand and evolve it.

-The way Thannissaro talks about morality is like a mathematical equation.  It is not very "relativistic" or "subjective", which are adjectives I have used to describe morality in a somewhat dismissive way for the past few years.  Buddhist morality is for everyone.  It is based on "ditching the split."  However, the exact energetic events themselves which  "ditch the split" need to be supported by effort on other levels.  This effort on other levels is not different for everyone.  It is very, very specific and based on the human condition, not Noah's particular issue as distinguished from John Doe's particular set of issues.  
          For instance, there are certain elements which must be present in a certain balance in order to gain the full benefit of the spectrum of Buddhist teaching.  Meaning, one needs "concentration to provide[] an inner stability and bliss so that we can clearly see the roots of passion and at the same time not fear deprivation at the prospect of pulling them out" and they also need generosity as an initial step on the path.  Morality elements that are specifically not included in the Buddha's formula include social tact, didactic education, basic physical fitness, certain life experiences (i.e. parenting or fighting in a war), etc.  
          I am starting to think that these morality elements that form the eightfold path are just as exact as the nanas and jhanas.  4th jhana does not develop into 1st jhana.  Likewise, the 5th nana does not share essential commonalities with the 2nd jhana (it does with the 3rd, of course).  In the same way, the buddha stresses certain changes to one's life and mindset and not others.  So Buddhist morality is scientific, pragmatic and should be taken up in a literal and hardcore way.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/18/15 8:04 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/18/15 8:02 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
As part of my arguement that morality is a core teaching of the buddha, right along with the other two, I would like to add something in:

Many people already possess many of the Buddha's necessary elements towards a "spiritual life" (just a phrase I chose for this particular sentence, no significance in the word choice).  Meaning, many people do not need to specifically do extra training in generosity or extra discipline regarding indulgence.  Morality is like a chain with many links or an equation with many variables.  So, if one reads a particular principle of the Dharma and feels like it is bogus, it might be because they already have it down pat.  

Just because most modern meditators possess some to almost all of these traits doesn't mean that they should be dismissed separately, or as a whole.

Also, a lot of this stuff just comes with age, life experience, trials and tribulations, parenting, etc.  Meaning, its just natural human wisdom that can be arranged in a specific way with a specific understanding based on impermanence, sufferring and not-self.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 2:48 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 2:48 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
What am I attached to?  My girlfriend, is the first answer I have.  No, I realize, that is a relationship, a free transaction which flows between us.  What is it that I am attached to that is not a free transaction with me and the world, not a flow?

I am attached to phrasing questions and finding answers.  I am attached to finding an "answer" to my personality, in all of its flaws.  This obsessive searching has become smarter, more subtle, and thus harder to refute, harder to detach from.  Its arguments have become less dualistic, and closer to the truth.  I believe vipassana has done this.

The sutras supposedly say that Vipassana without Samatha will agitate the mind.  I think this is another way of explaining the dukkha nanas.  It also might explain why, although I have become more aware of my mental knots, the clarity itself has not untied them.  

I am attached to trying to control the world and my life by perfectly understanding it.  I am attached to doing what feels good and easy in facing my problems instead of what hurts.  Although conceptualizing hasn't been effective, I continue to do it for that exact reason.  
-----------------------------------------------------

I am supposed to cultivate a healthy distaste for obsessive thought.  The key word here is healthy.  I definitely have a loathing for obsessive patterns as well as a sense of dread and powerlessness in the face of them.  I also have a sense of comfort within my current, unskillful coping mechanisms.  All of these things, however, are self-absorbed in that they cause me to judge my self and alter my self-image.  The Buddhas advice was to be action-oriented instead of self-oriented.  As a self, in fact, one should be 'too good'/ too aware/ above the various notions of addiction and other dsyfunctions.,  Furhtermore, I should cultivate a sense of admiration for the good, opposite actions as well as an admiration for noble other's who carry those actions out.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 10:43 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 10:43 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I believe the path lies beyond analysis, and instead in skillful means.  These means, for me, have been modes of meditation that eventually go beyond reason and rationality.

I hear a lot of people talking about their practice as if they want to "develop" or "cultivate" some qualitites.  This is not how it has worked for me.  When I relenteslly note for days on end, eventually, my mind breaks in two, I give up to the moment in a spontaneous, non-cultivated manner, and eventually I shoot up through equanimity and complete the cycle.  I am not purposely seeing things in an equanimous manner or bringing good will to things or favoring an open, surrendered awareness over a tight, tense one.  In fact, my tight, tense awareness works quite well at forcefully drilling down into my mind.  

So I think meditation works best for me when I act like a dumb beast of burden instead of like a conscious (or sub-conscious), but subtle, orchestrator.  I am starting to experiment with samatha practice.  The goal is to relax the mind and body.  I have noticed that I can have a lot of fundamental insight going on, meaning, feeling atuomatically centerless, automatically seeing cause and effect, etc. AND still be obsessing, still feel agitation in the body, still feel a lot of stress within this process (even though that stress arises and passes on its own).  Likewise, I can be in various jhanas and there is still an "obsesser" in the background.  I can still have the inner voice analyzing while I am very dissassociated from localized body and mind.  There is still a staticy atmosphere of agitated energy in the air of my mind.  

While this central tension remains through jhanas, nanas and (what is probably) the first three technical path attainments, it goes away when I breath calming energy into different areas of my body.  So, just as I have practiced dry mahasi noting relentessly, like a dumb mule, for hours and hours, I know believe I should also practice this calm breathing for hours and hours.  Just as I have trained this mind to disembed from everything, always, I should train this mind into the relaxation instinct, for everthing, always.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:12 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:12 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:

Here's 3 ways to think about the progress of insight (that are true to my experience so far) :

1) Enlightenment occurs after a sufficient number of insight cycles such that one experiences four path moments.

2) Enlightenment occurs after the seven factors of enlightenment are fully amplified and balanced.

3) Enlightenment occurs once the meditator has sufficiently learned the lessons of eleven insight knowledges.

___________________

#'s 2 and 3 have only started to make sense to me after 2nd path b/c progress is no longer perfectly linear.  Rather, it is fractalized (sub-cycles within the greater cycle that is 3rd path as a whole), and changes happen to me, rather than me simply going from point A to point B.  Life is becoming easier.  My teacher says it is important to acknowledge this, for attention on it will amplify it.  Life is supposed to become easy: really, really easy.  The more I relax within myself and turn down the intensity of my spirit, the more I can feel this.  I have struggled with bipolar disorder for long enough that it is hard to believe in the possibility of real progress.  And yet, real progress is happening.  I am certainly grateful.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:14 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:14 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:


Here are some thoughts about the whole mushroom culture thing:

Most mainstream Buddhists are certain that their development will grant them relativistic traits such as kindness, conventional wisdom, patience, etc.
In contrast, they are uncertain that their practice will give them ultimate or fundamental enlightenment.

Pragmatic Buddhists are, ideally, the opposite: certain of the possibility of attaining fundamental shifts that are built into the human dna...
But uncertain of exactly how the process of attaining such plateaus will improve their personality, functioning, etc.

This is not to say that it isn't a definite that insight meditation will help with one's subjective/relativistic life, but rather that it is impossible to predict exactly how it will do so.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:16 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:16 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:


Since I was sixteen, my life has been run by very old samskaras from my childhood.  Various limiting beliefs concerning self-efficacy, my ability to get shit done, and my ability to get shit done even when it causes me negative emotions.  There is no me.  I am just a composite of these samskaras determining my every move, each moment after the next.  
          Furthermore, these samskaras do not have a separate existence outside of my present experience, meaning, I no longer believe in an independent subconscious storehouse somewhere in the psychic plane (or whatever).  The only way my limiting, early childhood experiences currently exist is in whatever way they are affecting me in any given moment.  
          This means that the experience of agitation when I consider cleaning my room, applying for a "real" job or eating a healthy meal is only that, an experience in the moment.  This contrasts with what I previously thought about it; that it was some force outside of my conscious mind (called bipolar n.o.s. or whatever you want to call it), but still a part of my being, controlling me.  

So, I now realize that there are multiple parts:
a) the external situation which bothers me
b) the feeling or emotion of being bothered
c) the belief that this feeling has control over me

In the past, I have failed to recognize c) as separate from b).  I now realize that c) is the real culprit of my problems.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:19 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:19 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:


Okay, more about motivation and jhana:

I realized (after writing my last post about jhana) one reason I have no problem doing hours of vipassana but get immediate agitation/ emotional resistance when I go to exercise the will to perform a concentration technique.  Basically, I have a ton of faith that fundamental insight/ path attainments will lead to PERMANENT relief from my agitation.  In contrast, I have been trained/indoctrinated to believe that absorption states will only provide temporary relief.  

However, I think there is a more subtle, sub-distinction which needs to be realized: 
          My agitation (mood disorder) has multiple facets and sources.  Some of these are probably intertwined with insight disease (a basic dissattisfaction with the moment and the unsettled state of the kundalini and chakras).  Others, have more to do with what might be talked about in psychotherapy. 
          Vipassana leads to permanent relief from fundamental suffering ("ditching the split"), while Samatha leads to temporary relief from fundamental suffering (unification states).
          Samatha (for me) leads to permanent relief from conventional suffering, while vipassana (for me), leads to temporary relief from conventional suffering (by pushing negative/undesired objects out of my mind via aggressive noting or by completely accepting them).

What I mean (some of which is from personal experience) is that Jhanas heal and ground the energy body, heal the subconscious, allow lasting epiphanies to arise, develop a deeper, continuous, inner platform of stability, etc.  In the summer after my Sophmore year of high school, I did classic anapanasati for 30 minutes every day for two months.  Various images and thoughts would arise.  It felt like my mind was reorganizing itself (sort of a psychological "disk defrag").  About six weeks in, I experienced an epiphany which completely freed me of social anxiety surrounding the opposite sex.  For the rest of high school, I had a wonderful dating life.  

Many of these "conventional" changes to one's "stuff" are likely to last for the entire duration of one's existence in this body and mind.  Even if a positive change doesn't stay permanent in the strictest, unchanging sense, it is likely to cause other positive changes and other types of growth in one's personality and affairs.  Especially when the practitioner has low-lying but constant mental blockages which he or she is hyper-motivated to get rid of.

So, being that I don't really care as deeply about Buddist principles as I do about relieving myself from my own mental blockages, Samatha practice is very relevant!  For all intents and purposes, the reason I should practice Samatha is that it is likely to, in one or more ways, permanently wipe out my suffering.

p.s. I also have this hindu/yogic image in my mind of the master-meditator who has been "purified" by his absorption states.  I've read this idea in many spiritual memoirs and didactic texts.  I believe this is even the case in Buddhism, especially in the context of the "karmic models."  I think I can utilize a little bit of the karmic model theory here: when one's mind is absorbed, the system is being purified on all levels.  This does not occur when the mind is gaining a fundamental knowledge of its nondual nature while remaining on the surface level of perception.  So, going deeper, in a jhanic sense, does something that insight alone does not!  I am having to reprogram the pragmatic-dharma doctrine I have come to take as my own.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:22 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:

I really, really suck at jhana.  I've been doing dry mahasi noting in daily life for hours every day for about a year and a half.  I've gotten pretty good at determinedly pushing forward to get nanas and complete cycles.  Its doing the job on my mind.  But now I want absorption and am amazed at how I still have to start at the beginning.


Granted, my mental sensitivity has risen in leaps and bounds, so I can really feel what my mind needs when I go to start a concentration technique.  For instance, it used to be that I would obsess about the object of my meditation; should I feel the breath as a whole, or only the lining of my stomach rising and falling; should I try to control it or let it be; should I count, and if I do, should I continue the count if I get distracted or always start over at 1 when I realize I was thinking; etc, etc.  

Now I understand that the most important thing in meditation is whatever works for me in this moment.  I can feel the resting quality of jhana that I am trying to achieve.  It is inherently different from the experience of insight knowledges and the process of getting there is also inherently different.  To me, hard jhanas (the real stuff) feels like a totally committed experience which usually starts with a wave of pleasurable energy that dissassociates me from my body.  In contrast, nanas frequently manifest through symptoms in my regular modes of perception, i.e. differing moods, thought-patterns, emotions, and also surface-level sensing of vibratory patterns, mental-speed, etc.

The attitude which lit a fire under my ass to do achieve my vipassana goals was related to these thoughts: 
-What is stopping me from meditating all the time?  Isn't any degree of sacrifice worth achieving this realistic peace-of-mind which may help me deal with bipolar disorder where all else has failed?  

When I read people's dharma-diagnostic questions on the message boards (and they are asking for advice about how to progress), my initial thought is always that they should continue what they are doing, relentlessly, for days on end, until they make a breakthrough.  I realize that I tend to obsess and get restless when I take on a concentration technique, so I will now take my own advice and simply, relentlessly and continuously watch the breath while inclining the mind towards restfulness.  Even if I have to practice for hours or days just to get hard first jhana, it will be no big deal and totally worth it.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:23 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:23 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/integrityofemptiness.html

I've been reading this article by Thanissaro.  In this article, and others, it seems that he is trying to hunt down the common misunderstandings of the Western yogi.  In this article he dismisses self-absorption, saying that the path is not "self-purification" but actually "action-purification."  The whole point is to direct attention away from the self so that one does not have "denial" or "regret" in relation to one's actions.  Needless self-analysis is an action that I would benefit from abstaining from.

In another article, entitled "The Healing Power of the Precepts", he talks about how many Western yogis explore Buddhist meditation but find it insufficient to cure the sufferring, and move on to psychotherapy, sweat lodges, social activism, drumming, etc.  If they listened to other aspects of the Buddha's advice, however, they would understand that the system as a whole is designed to heal the mind at all levels.  The precepts are designed to build self respect and confidence and ultimately help us face our demons on the levels in which they manifest.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:26 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:26 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Moved from my practice log:


Aspects of the Buddha's advice (according to Thanissaro) that I could benefit from and am currently not practicing:
-the very idea of having principles as opposed to taking things as they come
-enforcing these principles with the discipline to act in favor of my long term benefit despite short term pain
-trying to just see things as they are, in the most pragmatic and down to earth sense, without any ideas of spirituality
-the general idea and attitude that meditation alone is not enough, even the highest levels of insight will not directly cause me to change my behaviors, only exercising willpower will do so-- i.e. solve the problem where its at, if I'm lazy or phobic, resolve to face my demons and act anyway, instead of trying to "fix" the demons at some deeper psychological level.... this is necessary too, but only immediate willpower will get me going externally
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Chris M, modified 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 5:29 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 5:29 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 5116 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I enjoy reading this thread but holy smokes, it's long and takes a lot of time to load. Is it time to start anew? Continue on a new thread?

Help!


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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 10:14 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 10:13 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Hey Chris - The "flat view" is your friend here.  Will allow you to navigate to the last page.
Chris Marti:
I enjoy reading this thread but holy smokes, it's long and takes a lot of time to load. Is it time to start anew? Continue on a new thread?

Help!


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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:37 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/19/15 11:31 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
re: Il Matto (4/18/15 7:56 PM as a reply to Il Matto.)

Nice investigation of sila.

" Morality elements that are specifically not included in the Buddha's formula include social tact"
Social tact may fall under another formula attributed to GB – "timeliness" or "non-devisiveness" under "Right Speech" (sammā-vācā).

(4/18/15 8:04 PM as a reply to IlMatto.)
"… a lot of this stuff just comes with age… its just natural human wisdom that can be arranged in a specific way with a specific understanding based on impermanence, sufferring and not-self."
Important point. I was struck once by Ven Guranatana's definition of wisdom (panna) as simply a profound ("established") grasp of impermanence. It takes awhile, trial and error and reflection, to fully appreciate that one's POV at any given time in life, as pragmatic as it may be for us to hold it at the moment, is most likely going to change.

" I am attached to trying to control the world and my life by perfectly understanding it."
Reminds me of an attitude that Nikolai often presents (which I won't try to characterize). Steven Levine also put it well: the world out there (samsara, including one's own part in it), is much too big to try to control; BUT it's the perfect size for letting-go of!

"Life is supposed to become easy: really, really easy."
From various teachings (from GB and interpretations), there's an impression that what happens eventually (liberation) is that ease and/or difficulty – as purely functional* experiences – just don't matter any more, aren't allowed to result in further karma. Perhaps like that notion, a foretaste, in the description of 4th jhana –(mental) pleasure and pain simply don't arise in the wake of sensations.

*"Functional" is a technical term in Abdhidhamma and Visudhimagga, meaning something like awakened experience still encounters the normal stuff of living, it's just handled purely matter-of-factly, so to speak; which might mean handled in terms of just optimizing sila, i.e. benefit for others under the circumstances; one's own panna is no longer an issue.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/20/15 2:15 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/20/15 2:15 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Yes, ease, in a simplistic sense, isn't the final goal.  I think I just meant, my experience will be greatly improved, which lines up with "functional".

Interesting point on social tact and right speech.  So many amazing details within the Therevada.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/20/15 2:36 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/20/15 2:36 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I want to eat another microwavable pizza.  I already had one.  I don't need another.  I have this image of discipline as a force, and also renunciation as a type of crushing force.  Crushing the desire to eat the pizza.  This hasn't worked for me because there is always a stronger counter-force, a stronger emotional resistance.  The mind is very adaptable with its fabrications in this way.  It seems to be protecting its craving pathways by manufacturing the multifaceted psychological defense mechanisms, which are, in the end, frequently unskillful.

Skillful renunciation is a fabricated experience.  Thannissaro writes that there are mental labels, thought judgements, and physical sensations that all go into the formation of an emotion.  When I try to "crush" my indulgence patterns, I am not honoring this complexity.

I used to think I could just note it away and eventually I would get path and it would all be fine.  But what is happening after path is that it becomes workable; in other words, I am seeing the truth more clearly, not automatically becoming a super-functioner.  

Sometimes I think the answer is awareness, but that is only part of the answer.  I must develop a deep understanding and a deep conviction in the process of building dispassion.  I need to hold the pizza-craving experience 'loosely'.  I must not create a personal narrative around it, nor solidify it into a conceptual category based on memory.  These are all aspects of the craving.

When I begin to peel away these layers of structure, it makes sense that I have this body, which relates to these nutrients, based on genetic programming and such.  The salivation that occurs at the very thought of the pizza, makes sense.  The beliefs, "I must have it", "I need it", "I can't function/will throw a fit without it", all make sense.  This experience is integral, or complete, or authentic, or total.

This experience is based on previous experiences.  Specifically, it is the result of seeds I have planted at different times.  Some of these seeds feel like more permanent patterns.  These explain why I used to believe so firmly in an independant, continuous, separate subconscious.  These seeds are created by our mental impressions of our physical actions and our processing of perception itself.  That is why vipassana in general, and Mahasi noting in particular, has such powerful effect.

So the whole process is conditioned (Chris pointed out that "mechanistic" implies an innaccurate degree of rigidity).  To recondition, and plant better seeds, I must have the right type of understanding and the right type of awareness.  These will lead to the right type of conviction or faith or trust, and thus the right type of emotion.  The right type of emotion makes the right type of behavior possible.

The reason why reconditioning hasn't worked for me in the past (other than the 1000's of hours of meditation I know have logged) is that I have tried to jump right into the behavior phase.  Granted, some people can do this.  But they usually have a seed which manifests as a belief "I can do this" and "I can tolerate any negative emotions that may arise".  My seeds are basically opposite.  

So, hold loosely.  The pizza is a symbol for it all.  It isn't some great struggle in a soap opera sense.  And I also shouldn't dismiss it by just saying 'and so it is... this is the way it works... I one-dimensionally accept the all in this moment'.  No, it is complicated, but it is also simple.  And it doesn't have to be dramatic, or a big deal.  Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche once said something along the lines of: "the ego  wants a huge ceremony to commemorate its stepping down.... ".  That sort of feels like how this is.  Eating the pizza isn't a big deal.  Not eating the pizza isn't a big deal.  If I do eat the pizza, I reinforce the samskara which says I need it.  If I don't eat the pizza, but exponentiate my resistance-emotions in the process, I also reinforce the samskara which says I need it.  So its not necessarily in the behavior.  

Its in the cool, calm, high-perched, zoomed-out viewpoint that the Buddha reccommends.  First you just have to see the all.  For me, its the image of a gargoyle atop the tallest skyscraper, looking down on a moon-soaked city which is also sparkling with its own lights.  In the quietness of the night, at such a height, each individual scene that is occurring, on street corners, in bedrooms, in all-night-botiques, has its own quality of completeness, but also its own potential to be held with an overwhelming intensity.  The trick is to create enough space so that you can dim down the intensity a little bit. 
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 4/20/15 2:02 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/20/15 1:53 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Hey,

Your thread here sounds a lot like my own focus.  I hope I'm not butting in, but a lot of what you're saying here strikes home for me and sounds very familiar.  I think I may have some helpful ideas, but if you don't feel I'm qualified to comment, please just ignore me. emoticon

Something that really helped me a while back was to realize that I wasn't battling a chimera.  When I was looking at each desire and trying to break it apart, by the time it left another one would pop up.  But there is actually only one function behind it all - it's that feeling of urgency, impatience, something-needs-to-happen.  If you aren't targeting that feeling specifically, it can feel like the mind is jumping from one desire to another completely lost and confused.  What's actually happening (at least, what I observed myself doing) was that I was popping bubbles without turning off the bubble machine - the desire and impatience were just steady, and the focus of the desire was jumping around.  You can steady the focus on one thing or the focus can be jumping around, but the feeling itself is the same.  This is why just trying to accept things often fails - it's just steadying the focus on an object. Your comments about how trying a crushing force doesn't work are actually very related to this - the new urgent impulse is to destroy the desire for pizza! Same impatience, different focus. The suffering is the impatience itself - the desire for change. Switching to a "crush my enemy desire" often strengthens the suffering, IME, because suddenly I'm legitemizing the urgency.  Even trying to maintain awareness all day, or maintain some kind of practice can be hijacked by this urgency and just become more fuel.

So, what I found was, the objects don't matter at all.  The fact that you want the pizza is irrelevant, and whether or not you eat the pizza is also irrelevant.  The problem is the desire for the pizza - that needing, cringing, clamping feeling.  The opposite of this feeling is patience.  It's allowing yourself to want something without getting it, and feeling that this state of affairs is okay.  When the urgency goes away, wanting things takes on a different meaning.  You still want them, but it's okay for that wanting to last forever.  There is no sense of impulse or compulsion - it's very freeing. (Or, even, freedom itself!)

How this all relates to concentration practice was an important discovery for me.  When the mind is incessantly jabbering away, it's this same impulse firing off thoughts.  The thoughts that come up all have a blip of urgency.  "I need to check my schedule" is a little blip of reminder.  "I should have been nicer to so-and-so" is a little blip of I-need-to-rehearse.  Everything that comes up and is a "distraction" is the urgency mechanisim firing away, saying there's no time to waste, something has to be done.  Reality isn't perfect and needs to be modified in some way. So concentration meditation is directly influencing and turning down/off this mechanism by watching it without indulging it in any way.  It's just sitting there and denying all impulses that come into your head by allowing yourself to forget about them completely. All the way down to the most subtle thoughts and ideas.  You can really fire it up by trying to sit perfectly still for a period of time while watching a clock.  It will try to go dull and blank the time out, or it will fire off aching joints and itches.  But it's all the same thing.  So, there is no need to put any focus on what, exactly, this mechanism is pushing at you - whether it's anger, fear, worry, regret, hunger, itches, on and on - you can just look at them all as the same thing: impatience.

I think this fits into the idea of morality and the non-meditation-related instructions from the buddha very snugly. If you are guarding the sense doors, and not indulging in sensual desires, it means you are no longer allowing this mechanism to control what you do. Say the desire comes up to check facebook. To guard the sense doors, you first let go of the mechanism before checking facebook (maybe by waiting a few minutes before going on). When you eat, you don't indulge or try to gratify any urgency for certain tastes. You can set aside entertainment for a while, or take cold showers. It all contributes to lessening the impact of this mechanism - though not required!  In terms of morality, anger, jealousy, and other negative states related to other people are also this mechanism firing off. It's all just impatience, and I think this is why concentration practice has a deeper impact than simply creating a pleasant state of mind. That pleasant state of mind is the absence of this mechanism, and this makes deep grooves in the mind.  The concentration of jhana is just the absense of all urgency.

Anyway, I hope this helps. emoticon
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/22/15 3:31 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/22/15 3:31 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Wow Not Tao!

Thank you so much.  You spoke directly to the core of my suffering.  

I agree with everything you've said here, and I would like to hear more.  I totally know what you mean when you talk about impatience hijacking the meditation.  I actually think this hijacking is what has allowed me to freestyle mahasi note in daily life so consistently.

My problem in the past (with samatha practice) has been that I've noticed that the impatience/resistance seems to be able to continue forever.  For instance, I went on a ten day zen sesshin a few months ago.  I was cringing and wanting to scream on day 1, day 5 and day 10.  Wtf!?  I guess maybe it was too big of a dose and I need to do a little bit a day, as you say.

I also think that my mindset before I begin a period of "tolerance" or patience is really important.  If I take on traditional sila as a lense through which I look at life, it may help prepare in some way to tolerating the pain.
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p.s.- Being totally "okay" with the sensousness of the present moment environment while noticing how this acceptance contrasts with the affective mechanism also seems to be a potentially helpful exercise.  I have no concern as to whether or not it leads to a permanent actually-free state, as long is it can help to quell my mind.  This practice is sort of a "back up" plan b that I have in mind if technical fourth path  + sila fails.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/22/15 4:00 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/22/15 4:00 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Doing more thinking on Not Tao's comments...

The dharma isn't separate from my life.  Thanissaro's writings on sila, as a funnel for the words of the original Buddha, aren't separate from my affairs, my mind, my moods, my moment now.  The principles are to be put into practice, here, now.  

I can feel the tension of the split with my reality.  It is a sort of "psychic" tension.  But I can't say perfectly where that tension ends and my bad moods, my agitation, begin.  In other words, if I am brutally honest, I experience my suffering as one spectrum that I can't neatly cut up, i.e. "this mental exercise is for this negative feeling", meanwhile, "these changes in habits are for these negative feelings."  

I once described the raging agitation and resistance I experience on the cushion to a zen master in dokusan.  He told me that I am probably experiencing the same thing as everyone else, but amplified to a huge degree.  This resonated with me.  

This feeling is a basic dissatisfaction with the moment.  It is the "bubble machine" in Not Tao's metaphor.  Perhaps I just have a very raw, uncut version of the same Dukkha as everyone else.  The Buddha was a Dukkha doctor.  What would he say to me specifically?
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 4/23/15 10:53 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/23/15 10:53 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Urgency can highjack anything and everything - even practice.  If you are sitting there waiting for a feeling of urgeny to end, that itself is a new urgency.  For me, letting go of the urgency often feels like self-betrayal or a kind of recklessness.  Like I'm abandoning something truely important.

It's actually kind of difficult to explain this, but there is a meditation you can do to target this urgency directly.  At the core of it, you're just allowing yourself to forget everything for a little while.  I think a "demonstration" might be best, so I'll write out a little story.

Let's say I decide to sit for an hour.  I start by putting a clock in my line of sight (which might sound crazy at first glance, haha).  Then I sit down with the intention to do nothing and enjoy it.  I am not meditating - this is very important.  I am not looking for jhanas or insights, I'm just sitting down to rest for a little while.  So, because I am hoping to enjoy myself, I look to see how I'm feeling.  It's not concentrating on how I feel, just checking in.  This is actually very easy to see most if the time because it's the main obsession of our lives, honestly.  The first thing that usually hits me is frustration and boredom I'm looking at the clock after just a minute thinking, "I'm just sitting here wasting time!"  But then, that's exactly the point.  The whole goal of this exercise is to learn how to waste time, specifically.  I look at this frustration and boredom and ask, why?  Why can't I just be happy doing nothing right now?  Each thought that comes up is an answer - even though the question itself might be forgotten.  I start thinking about work, and at some point I remember I'm supposed to be doing nothing (typical meditation moment) so first I ask myself if I'm enjoying my thoughts about work.  If I am, that's perfectly fine, I can keep thinking them.  If I'm not (and this is usually the case) what is it about work that is so urgent that I can't let it be for now and just enjoy sitting there doing nothing.  Maybe I'm thinking about that girl that keeps hassling me about different things.  So at this point, I make the decision that, for right now, it's okay to leave that bit of my life unresolved.  Maybe I feel angry at her, that's perfectly fine, I don't have to fix it, I just want to go back to doing nothing.  Maybe I'm embarrased, or I'm trying to think of a good comeback, or I'm wondering when I have to work with her next.  I decide that it doesn't matter, I am just going to let it be messy and imperfect the way it is.  The reason I like the word patience is because it doesn't point to a permanent solution.  It's a stop-gap.  I don't have to resolve any deep seated issues.  I don't have to try to push the feelings away.  I don't have to try to forget about it, or concentrate it away, or treat it as a distraction, or anything at all.  Right now, all I need to do is let the situation remain broken/imperfect and forget about it.

The urgency comes from feeling like things need to be fixed right away.  If you can allow things to remain messy, then you can finally relax.  I have an analogy for this.  Let's say life is a tapestry.  New parts are always being woven in, and old parts are fraying and falling apart - it's a violent process.  This urgency is basically our attempt to follow behind and fix the tapestry as we go along.  It's our attempt to hold ourself together at the seams.  We're desperately afraid to lose track of ourselves, so we're always watching.  Each thought that comes up is a new thread we're trying to weave back in.  We have this idea of who we are, and this idea is constantly challenged by other people and the situations we find ourselves in.  Maybe I believe I'm a pretty smart guy, and suddenly that girl at work challenges that.  The reason I start thinking about it is because I'm hoping to reclaim my smartness.  So I come up with explanations: she's just mean, or she isn't very smart so she can't see I am, or she doesn't understand me, on and on.  What you want to do is just give up.  Leave the whole thing completely unresolved as it is.  Your hands are full of these threads, now just toss them to the wind.

And remember, it's only for now that you're doing it.  The point of sitting for an hour doing nothing is to give yourself a chance to let go of everything at once.  Life, itself, doesn't have to be that way.  What happens is, after letting go, you will have a completely different view of the situation.  After meditation, I might think about the girl at work again, but suddenly there is no more urgency - I simply don't care about it one way or another - so it's dropped as soon as it comes up.  Things that are important, like fixing my car, are no longer urgent as well - which makes them easier to do!  It's interesting, but I've found the only reason I avoid doing things is because it feels like we have to do them, haha.

So if I go back to my story, let's say I notice my thoughts about the girl at work, and I remove the urgency by deciding to wait to resolve it until after my sit (if it helps, you can write it down on a paper - like promising to remember later).  The thought stream kind of drifts away and I feel a little better.  Then the question drifts into my head, "ok, now what?" and I look at the clock again.  My impatience is back.  My mind says, "look, you resolved something.  That was a successful sit.  Now, let's go do something!"  Same old urgency and impatience is back.  But I decide to say no.  I just sit there doing noting.  The mind is like, "what are you doing?  Nothing is happening...  This is boring."  Yet, I just keep sitting there, doing nothing.  Then I notice I start to go a bit dull.  I haven't thought about anything very specific for a few minutes, but I haven't really noticed them going by either.  This is the mind deciding that, if it can't use the time for something worthwhile, like resolving problems, it will just blank out the time.  So I say no, again, and go back to just sitting, waiting for the hour to pass, doing nothing.  The mind can really freak out at this point - and I'm assuming this might be what happened to you on your retreat.  But what I've found is, these freakouts are the exact same urgency.  Maybe there's an itch, and you say "I'm not going to scratch that itch!"  Just scratch it.  Maybe your leg feels like it's going to break apart at the knee, and your skin is crawling, and your neck hurts.  This is a good time to rexamine what you're actually doing.  You're just sitting there.  Why does it have to be so difficult?  It's actually pretty rediculous.  The solution to this is to continue on with the intention in mind.  You just want to sit there for an hour and enjoy the process.  You aren't required to enjoy it - there is no obligation to accomplish anything at all - but ask your mind, "why wait?"  Why does sitting have to be painful or difficult?  Why not just relax?

The point is just to sit and watch for any kind of urgency, impatience, longing, frustration, desire, etc and simply do nothing about it.  If you know the cause, you can let go of it by dropping the whole story - there is nothing you need to do about it during the sit.  You're emancipated from all responsibility.  If you don't know the cause, or the cause seems to be the sit itself, you direct your patience towards it.  You say, "I'm going to sit here for an hour whether there is peace of mind or not.  I'm not getting up for any reason.  So, mind, we might as well enjoy the process.  No pressure though.  Feel free to throw a tantrum the whole time if you like.  I can wait."

So that's it.  You aren't trying to suppress thoughts or feelings, you aren't trying to concentrate, and you aren't trying to meditate.  You're just sitting with the intention to do nothing and enjoy it - and you're hoping to develop patience with the process.  During the day, you might find it's much easier to let go of things.  Letting go just means leaving things unresolved for the moment.  So you can learn to sort through all the thoughts that believe they should be high priority, and start marking them as low priority and putting them at the end of the list.  You may also find that you're much more aware of that sense of urgency and you can start dropping it in real time.

Also, like I said in the other post, specifically declining to indulge impulses during the day does a lot to this mechanism.

Hope this helps! It's done a lot for me. It seems to complement noting as well (though I would avoid noting if you're trying the practice above since it might just be something to "do").
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/23/15 5:09 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/23/15 5:09 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Okay, that all sounds like it could really help me.  I'm gonna try it soon.  Thanks again.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/23/15 5:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/23/15 5:15 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I've been reading Thannissaro's "Selves & Not-Self: The Buddhist Teaching on Anatta."  Its a collection of eight talks he gave during a retreat.  I'm writing summaries of them as I go.  This exercise of writing the summaries is really helping me to see the big picture of sila: and it really isn't what I thought it was.  

Basically, the sila practices reccomended by the Buddha are just dry, common-sense, with a particular logic based on a certain goal and various assumptions.  Sila is a step by step process which forms a sort of chain through every area of one's life.  The assumption is that everybody wants to be happy.  

However, in order to achieve the best possible form of happiness, one must endure short term pain for long term pleasure.  This pleasure must involve all areas of life, including the conventional one's (not just spiritual development).  Eventually (in my case, first), this stable, mature and balanced lifestyle must be disembedded from, like all other things, in order to achieve the unfabricated/nirvana.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/27/15 10:31 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/27/15 10:31 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Although 3rd path has not wiped out my suffering, I am noticing something extraordinary... there is a stillness that I can tune into at any time.  When I do this, the other thing comes up: thoughts that this is wrong, I can't be patient, etc., as well as negative emotions in the body.  

These two things seem so different!  I'm working on reconciling them.  I let the calming breath guide the mind back.  Another tool is to just be perfectly awake in the midst of all this negativity (supported by the stillness, of course).  A third tool is to throw just a dash of good will in the soup.  This isn't metta meditation, but with a good will and 'friendliness' orientation, I notice that I prefer the calmness to the motion.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/28/15 4:06 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/28/15 4:06 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I am probably less functional than most.  The truth is I have trouble getting out of bed in the morning, trouble cleaning my room, trouble getting a haircut, trouble reading the news (or anything intellectually stimulating or relevant to the real world).  

When I think of actual Buddhist Sila practice, I think of actually changing my habits: not drinking alcohol, not watching porn, not eating junk food or meat, not ever lying or indulging in hostility towards myself or others, actually giving to charity and practicing daily-life selflessness and minor versions of generosity.  I am so far from actually wanting to do this or being able to do this.

So, I shift back and forth between two models/sets of expectations: (1) there is a state of plateaud state of spiritual development which I can attain in which I will finally be able to do all of these things with relative ease and (2) there is no such state that will give me enough relief from my anxiety... instead, I need to do it the old fashioned way... which is bootstrapping, traditional will power, hard work, no shortcuts, grit your teeth and suck it up.

The truth is that I hope meditation will make me numb to my emotions and thoughts enough that I can live a life.  And, to be honest, its working, so its hard to deny this possibility.  I don't really care how it aligns with traditional spiritual sensibilites.  I just want to slow down my own mind.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/29/15 5:22 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/29/15 5:22 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Building on approach #1 from my previous post (reach a mind-state that will make all things easy, as opposed to trying to use willpower to build better habits), I am formulating (just for my personal philosophy), a hedonistic-pragmatic-dharma.  Hedonistic in the sense that what I am really trying to do is make more pleasure for myself (whether you call it equanimity, pure consciousness, the unfabricated, source energy, 4th path, Actual freedom, etc).  Also hedonistic in the sense that I accept this as a reasonable goal (as opposed to wanting to get enlightened for the benefit of all beings, wanting to get enlightened to be a more functional person, wanting to get enlightened to have spiritual powers, etc.).  All of these things may very well happen and be useful as goals in that they are pleasurable aspects of life.  But they would be secondary goals within this framework.  

What I need to do on a cognitive level (at this point of beginning fourth path) is to make a mental and emotional commitment to disembed from the sense-of-center-point.  This phrase implies both my faith that I exist as well as the phenomenological experience of a continuous me.  Cycles are conducive to that but may not be sufficient to accomplish that goal.  I am ready to really shut this thing down now.  This removal of commitment to the central me is what will ultimately, I predict, result in a pleasurable life for myself down the road.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 4/30/15 6:37 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 4/30/15 6:37 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Slowly, slowly moving out of monkey mind...

I want to take this opportunity (the way I am feeling today) to make a mental note to my future self.  Simplicity is a good state to progress towards.  There are so many theories of awakening out there.  There are even more secular systems of self-improvement.  

My analysis isn't really the thing which is helping me, although it frequently feels that way.  If anything, I am making progress in spite of my obsessing and anxious mode-of-living.  I am starting to feel less influenced by the myriad versions of my own mind and the myriad lines-of-thought I engage in as I try to figure this thing out.  The simple, right thing to do is to trust the process instead of trusting my thinking mind AND the process.

Methods which feel natural or easy and lead to relief from suffering and increased happiness are the way to go.  For me, that seems to be this rapid-fire Mahasi-noting as I go about my day.  I plan to practice the Actualism method after I complete Fourth Path.  It is a good plan.  And, with that settled, I should always come back to this point of trusting the process and favoring a simple mindset over one which is always analyzing, dissecting and looking for hidden answers.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/7/15 8:00 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/7/15 8:00 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I've been reading through the "Psychonaut's Field Manual", written by the Arch-Traitor Bluefluke and posted to the DHO by Jean B.  I have always loved magick.  At age 13 my dad sent me to be coached in Magick and meditation by his friend, who taught me tarot, energy healing, mental science, dream analysis, chi gong, various transference/empowerment-type practices, diety yoga, etc.  It was a lot of fun.
_______________________________________

It wasn't until recently, about ten years later, that I have a real chance at continuous, embodied practice of some of this stuff.  4th path and later, AF, and even later than that, perhaps mastering jhana, mastering brahma vihara, further energetic work, etc., all represent ways for me to settle and control my mind.  For many people, settling the mind is the first step of the path, found through virtue, generosity, goodwill and samatha.  I wouldn't have had a chance to do any of those things a year ago.  My mind was just whirring at a 1000 mph- pace.  

Getting enlightened is magick in that it is a mind-hack that has real-world/causal ramifications (permanently changing the mind of the hacker).  When I was in college, there were times when I would spend hours visualizing what it would be like to be perfectly healthy and functional (even though I couldn't even write a one-page essay for a class or clean my room).  A few years later, I got a job, got back on medications, and seemed to just grow out of bipolar disorder to a certain degree (meaning, I no longer experienced huge swings in mood, just a constant, minor dsyfunction that I currently have).  

I then figured out how to do Vipassana and how to understand MCTB even though I had already been lurking on the DHO for two years.  Why didn't I "get" these things before, when I first discovered pragmatic dharma?  Perhaps because the universe has a funny way of manifesting things, as efficiently as possible, when a given sentient brain concentrates on them with a high degree of intensity for a long time.  Efficiency is the key word in the last sentence, since, I wasn't ready for the pragmatic dharma five years ago, even if the universe was ready to give it to me (by showing me the web site).
_____________________________

I think the practice of Magick is the answer to the question of morality, how to live in the world.  Magick includes all conventional, intentional behavior and thought (an idea I got from Daniel Ingram), as well as all harder-to-explain-stuff.  The Buddha devised a sila based around a certain logic (karma and rebirth exist, freewill and fate both exist, complete happiness is possible but must be bolstered by long-term-partial happiness, etc).  Whether or not I ascribe to this exact logic, there is a sense that intention and attention matter.  What we do with out mind matters, in both, a short term (direct/conventional causality) and long-term (magickal/indirect causality/law of attraction) manner.  

Anways, the good news is that we have a lot of control over our worlds.  We can even have some influence over those pesky, superpowered karmic momentums (i.e. debilitating physical disease).  I'm not expecting anyone to walk on water, but it is a nice way to live and its working for me in healing a biochemical condition.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/10/15 10:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/10/15 10:15 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Thoughts on AF vs 4th Path (with the idea that AF is 'beyond' 4th Path)

-Metaphor:
   "I"=basic sense of self/ idea of self/background knowledge that I exist/ self-existence as process, not necessarily solid self
   car=mind and body (as well as external world)
          -pre-4th path="I" am driving the car 
          -post-4th path=car is driving itself, "I" am just enjoying the ride
          -post-AF=there is only car driving itself

-AF is being a shell with perception, one must kill the 'ghost in the shell' (ala the anime :p), 4th path makes one realize they are only a ghost in a shell, but they still ARE that ghost... that ghost must be willing to die
          -it can be replaced by a general sense or mood of enchantment

-AF might not be the permanent destruction of the affective muscle.  That is probably impossible.  However, I know from experience (third pather) that the effects aren't always super dramatic and overstated.  So, I think AF is losing faith in one's passion and affect in a way that permanently takes some of the steam/momentum from them... it takes away the glue that holds it all together, even if the materials from the original structure are still present.

-The PCE is...
          -a subtle shift into the immediacy of the present...
          -an accidental falling away from the awareness of one's story...
          -a giving up of the strings of attachment that connect one to situations outside of the moment (after becoming disenchantent with the             'feel' of the tautness of these strings that hold it all together)...
          -just becoming more normal in your conscious awakeness, not necessarily do some extra effort, just such minimization of effort that              even the sutble effort of having an extra layer beyond being alive is detected and dropped

-Qualities of fortuitous feelings/ How HAIETMOBI makes me feel:
          -appreciating buzzing solidity
          -luminous
          -its like some other, non-human spirit is pssessing me, or like a divine bhav
          -I still experience the most touchy anxieties and attachments, but there is some cloud or fuzziness around them that allows me to 
           remain mindful
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 11:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 11:22 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Some thoughts on Mental Science after reading Ernest Holmes:

          Holmes says the important thing is to recognize creative law within yourself.  This would also apply to treating for others.  This recognition and trust is the main mechanism of power within mental science practice.  The visualization and desire that come in the beginning of a treatment, as well as the gratitude and acceptance that come at the end, are NOT the main things that make it work.  
          The point is that creative law is something that was working before you were born and after you die.  If you never existed as this exact life, it would still be doing its thing.  Furthermore, creative law works within the shittiness of form, regardless of all the talk of perfection, wholeness, and completeness.  These things are just ideas or ideals that express the quality of the movement of creative law.  

          Mental science can be completely naturalized by saying that it is the process of noticing and acting on certain immeasurable qualities of nature: adaptiveness, unity and psychicness (or sentience).  Adaptiveness means that when shitty stuff happens, nature is pretty good at finding solutions whose sum are greater than the problems.  The side effect of adaptiveness is order and evolution.  Without it, it is unlikely that the accident of life would occur.  
          Unity means that qualities must, by definition, be inherent throughout the universe.  There isn’t a part of this reality that can be neatly separated from the rest of it.  Of course, there are physical areas and mental portions (human minds, cultures, etc.) that have certain traits that other areas don’t, but that doesn’t mean that they are separate.  An example of unity is that the data and potential for an entire tree is contained in a single seed.  Another example of unity is that a dualistically-perceiving human mind can transform into a very non-dualistic one (enlightenment).  
          Psychicness proceeds from the unity explanation.  For there to be life, the materials of life had to be stored as potential in the inorganic matter of the universe.  For there to be sentient life, the potential had to be there in non-sentient life.  Likewise, for fully-sentient life (human minds).  The human mind was there as a possibility in the big bang.  This doesn’t mean that there was one, all-knowing being.  Its just saying that through cause and effect, the big bang has led to this moment.  
          So, creative law works pretty well on its own.  Our jobs as humans are to recognize it and allow it.  When I note to try to reach fourth path, I understand the process that is happening (in the form of the sixteen insight knowledges), and I trust it to do its work on me, easily, effortlessly and completely.  When I think of my own body, I can recognize that its various processes are working fairly well, based on my impressive human dna.  When the ramifications of this observation are taken to the extreme, I can see the possibility of my bodily processes being even better than they currently are.  I can easily imagine that my body is working really, really, really well, automatically and on its own, based on its design.
          Another important point that comes up is that sometimes creative law seems stuck in recurring loops.  For example, why isn’t human society more evolved by now?  Why is there still so much pain and poverty, etc.  At these times, it might be useful to recognize that creative law is working within a certain paradigm; there is a ceiling to what it can do based on what the human population currently believes is possible.  Therefore, it useful to say that there is nothing wrong with the law itself, but with the current version of what it is doing.  Envision a better version so as to break the ceiling.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 12:10 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 12:10 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Some thoughts on the progress of insight:

When one focuses on whatever it is they choose (not necessarily reality as it is, could be absorptions or energetic patterns), they begin to notice things moment-by-moment, without filters.  Each moment, they notice some, single thing or group of things, in and of itself.  This is Mind & Body.

However, attention moves from one object to the next.  Moments of attention are linked in that previous moments affect future ones.  Likewise, objects of attention are linked in that previous objects affect future ones.  This is Cause & Effect.

Since everything is linked up in an endless chain of cause and effect, everything has one quality or taste.  That taste is movement or flow or change.  Each thing does not have its own individual character, rather its character is effected by the things that preceeded it just as it affects what it turns into.  This sense of the one character is The Three Characteristics.

When the process of observation gets close enough to this one taste, clarity begins to reveal that the process is not separate from what is being observed.  Therefore, there is not a separate observer.  There are only things.  However, things arise from their predecessors and pass into their future forms.  This is the synonymous with saying they come from the void and pass into it.  The observer sense, being one with the observed, also arises from the void and passes into it.  This is The Arising and Passing Away.

When the A&P has done its work on the meditator, the shock of a new understanding of life comes into play.  This shock is caused by a sense of the meditator never having existed in the first place.  The first tremor is called Dissolution and refers to the loss of a sense of self.

The process plays out on the predictable human psyche like a character in a horror movie or the stages of grieving.  After the initial encounter with the unknown (dissolution), Fear sets in.

When one gets used to the state of being afraid for their own life, Misery naturally arises.  They are no longer shocked or afraid, but just dissapointed and aggrivated and angered.

Misery evolves into Disguist as even the previous negative emotions are adapted to.  Now the meditator is simply tired.

Remembering the original goal of moving past existence completely, Desire for Deliverance arises.

However, one can not move past the process of perception, in all of its not-selfness and change, until they have really, fully and deeply mastered it.  They must accept the process of perception at their core.  To do this, they must accept all of its negative ramifications, before recieving any of the positives.  Therefore they must go through a Reobservation of the shockwave started at dissolution.

Finally, Eqanimity sets in.  The meditator has fully accepted that they are a part of the process of perception and that this process is reality itself.  They completely accept the true nature of human life.  This acceptance, however, has its own shockwave that must be adapted to.  Deeper and deeper levels of relaxation must be unlocked.  Aspects of reality that remain under the radar must be seen. 

Initially, the obvious ramification is Neither Pleasure Nor Pain, the 4th jhana aspect of the 11th nana.  There is no need to prefer some things and push away others if everything is inevitable happening on its own and the "you" is just there to ride the wave.

However, in riding the wave, one is still within the world of form.  They are still contained in the body.  There is a sense of the physical body and the physical environment.  This sense is a trap.  It is a way that the process of perception still, yet remains unclear to the practitioner.  This sense can be overcome, and experienced as Boundless Space, the 5th jhana aspect of the 11th nana. 

Unlocked from the understanding of being contained in a separate, continuous body and immediate physical space, the mind is still associated with its individualized self, its psychic locality within the body, framed by self-concept, memory, etc.  The mind is defined by what it has been aware of.  Dropping this layer reveals Boundless Consciousness, the 6th jhana aspect of the 11th nana.

With sense of the outer and sense of the inner released based on the understand that they are relative and not ultimate, what is left?  The one taste that was discovered in the 3rd and 4th nanas still applies.  Inner and outer realities are one, continuous, fluxing reality.  They have no inherent existence.  There isn't some-thing about them that is special or an exception to the law of the 3c's.  Therefore, there is no-thing about them at all.  Being freed from the individualized sense, they are infinitely no-thing.  This is Boundless Nothingness, the 7th jhana aspect of the 11th nana.

All of reality is fluxing.  There is no inner or outer.  There is no individual and no greater whole.  Thus a continuous, endless, flow.  However, how can any of this be known?  There is still perception.  As long as there is perception, there is limitation.  There can be a preference for perception, a preference for existence, a preference for the arrangement formed at birth (that of a separate self which suffers).  The elimination of the preference for the sense of knowing, the sense of perception, is Neither Perception Nor Yet Non Perception, the 8th jhana aspect of the 11th nana.  

With the elimination of preference for knowing existence, it becomes possible to unlock the key to existence: stop existing.  Release completely from the arrangement known as self and other.  Release completely INTO this arrangement.  When bare knowing is refined enough, it can lead to perfect not-knowing.  This is Cessation and Fruition.  When stabilized and extended, it is Niroddha Samappatti. 

________________________________

Siddhis seemed to be attained through further contact with the Boundless insights (5th through 8th jhanas).  This makes sense as they represent a break from the limitations of individualized mind and body as well as conventional cause and effect.

Jhanas in their purest forms are separate from their corresponding Nana aspects.  A full absorption into a part of this process of transformation is something separate from a full knowledge of a part of it.  It is probably impossible to be fully absorbed into a part of the process that is only a shockwave, only, inherently moving.  That is why there aren't really jhanas for individual Dark Night nanas.  

Niroddha seems to be the Jhana form of Cessation and Fruition.

There seems to be areas of mind beyond or somehow more refined than perfect release from the process of perception.  In Pragmatic Dharma-speak, they are labelled Pure Land jhanas, but I suspect they exist in other traditions.  How can they be "percieved" if they lie beyond perception?  This remains a mystery to me.  It might make more sense if we use a chakra model.  These states would then represent the soul travelling out of body (out of the perfectly open crown chakra which tops a perfectly flowing and connected chakra system [which is 4th path]) to become absorbed into higher chakras, perhaps collective chakras that do not belong to any one individual.

Furthermore, if we use a chakra model, Actual Freedom makes sense as an attainment beyond 4th Path.  At 4th Path, the chakras are all open, energy is free to flow in and out of the body.  This is why Yogis describe complete non-stickiness.  The exact nature of the energy doesn't matter (enlightenment doesn't change your personality), but the quality of it has changed.  

However, the fact that there is energetic flow is significant.  While there was no energetic flow in the moment of Cessation & Fruition, the flow continuous afterwards but is observed with a quality of the not-percieving state.  How can the quality of that not-percieving state become more integrated with the psychic system beyond just affecting the witness function and the openness of the chakras?  

The movement of the energy itself can be stilled through various other, alternate types of perception that have less to do with the relationship of self and world and more to do with the self only.  By continuously observing the self in its reactive modalities, the Yogi can notice something that is separate from this reactive modality: the quality of apperception.  No matter what the Yogi does or is, they are alive and therefore registering through the sense doors.  This is an unavoidable, inherent quality of human life.  

Developing a sensitivity to apperception, the ultimate effortlessness (since it is automatic), the Yogi can tell that he or she is actually still engaging the world, even though the engagement seems centerless and volitionless after 4th path.  There is a subtle effort that the soul is making as it exists in its awareness in the chakras.  This effort creates an environment within the energy system that is friendly to energy flow.  By dropping the subtle effort of being a soul, and simply enjoying or openly embracing as apperception instead, the system begins to become so calm that even subtle energetic flow is decreased.  This manifests on the phenominological level as the minimization of affect.  
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 4:12 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 1:41 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
This is a very interesting writeup.  I like the theory.

Is it necessary for the mind to see this directly, though?  Apperception is possible without directly dismantling the sense of self.  It's more like forgetting about the self completely.  Maybe what you're describing here as Actual Freedom beyond 4th path is really just something different and doesn't require the paths at all.

EDIT: Sorry, that was worded badly.  I meant to say that maybe what you're describing as "post 4th path" practice is just something separate from the paths completely - like, you can practice them whenever and get the same results.  You seem to have gotten that though...
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 2:45 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/15/15 2:45 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Yeah its very possible I'm describing something else.  A lot of post-4th-pathers do Dzogchen.  Others practice Actualism.  I think these are just labels talking about similar territory.  I'm not saying the methods are the same.  I'm saying the territory they lead to is similar.  Who really knows?  The neat, but oversimplified conceptual model is definitely helpful for me though.  

I also think practices such as Dzogchen or Actualism are possible to do before 4th path, as you said.  They may lead to different places if done before 4th path.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/22/15 5:54 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/22/15 5:54 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
My dad studies 'Mental Science'/'Science of Mind'/'Religious Science' very intensely.  It is a spiritual system based around the law of attraction.  Teachers of this include Michael Beckwith, Abraham-Hicks, and many dead one's such as Ernest Holmes and Thomas Troward.  A lot of people on pragmatic dharma forums are probably not familiar with it or would quickly dismiss it entirely.  The idea of Mental Science basically takes nonduality a few steps further than we take it in our community.  I would say that it is complex and subtle and very intelligent.  So its not simplistically saying there is some magical way of thinking that will always get you exactly what you want.  Also, I would suggest that the Buddha probably discovered this area of thought and practice, but that it was outside of the 'handful of leaves' of the dharma that he found useful for eliminating suffering.  

Rather, it is taking the idea of nonduality that we experience directly via vipassana, and taking its ramifications a few steps further.  There is one reality, as far as we know.  Even if there were parallel universes, they would be contained in this one reality.  This reality has a certain integrity and organization to it, as it seems to always be getting more and more complex and refined in its forms.  

Furthermore, there are patterns through which it works, called laws (i.e. gravity, thermodynamics), that seem to be happening everywhere, at all times.  So, in some sense, this reality isn't inconsistent.  Even if there are exceptions to these laws, it is still remarkable how consistent they are.  

I would say that the human brain and mind is part of this continuum of reality.  Sentience isn't some exception to the patterns we can observe outside of it, in the natural world.  For sentience, to exist, there must be a cause for it in the natural world.  So, there is some way that sentience is connected to the natural world and the laws through which it operates.

Mental Science posits that the cause of sentience IS the same as the cause of this orderly, integral nature of reality.  That there is only one cause, and could only be one cause since there is only one reality.  I'm not a philosopher, but there would probably be some type of arguementative fallacy in denying this.  There can't be a human mind that is completely independent or separated from its cause.  There can't be a tree which has nothing to do with the seed it sprouted from.  

There can't be processes of the human mind that have no relationship with the natural world around it.  Mental movement (thoughts, emotions, etc) occur in the natural, luminous, volitionless, centerless field of awareness, just as physical changes in the environment occur in naturally and completely and perfectly causally.  The mind is like a miniature version of the environment.  The mind can't be a separate mind, however.  

From this idea, we assume there is only "One Mind" and this background, one mind is that cause for all change.  Waking up to this relationship empowers the Mental Science practitioner to realize how the processes in the external environment that they experience must inherently resonate with the processes within their personal mind.

------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I don't necessarily believe all of the above, but those are the ideas.  I asked my dad to do a 'treatment' (the technique of Mental Science) for me just now for ease in the apartment search.

I was amazed at the felt power he was able to generate in his speech, communicated through the 'vibe' in the room.  I went right into fourth jhana, which was really nice.  I found my thoughts naturally sort of running themselves, in relation to what he was saying.  He communicated the idea of the 'right place' for me and my future roommate.  That this place was already found, in the ultimate sense (outside of time and space), and that it was an exciting place to be where I would learn lots of valuable life lessons and make the most out of the adventure of moving to Seattle.  I found myself believing what he was saying.  It had a certain force to it.

I think that to practice Mental Science properly, one has to have a larger perspective which contains their personal one but doesn't honor it with all of the intensity of the ego.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/22/15 6:21 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/22/15 6:21 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Some or thoughts on Mental Science based on today's experience:

The idea of the 'one mind' of reality is completely non-dual... its the one without a second.  This is hard for me to wrap my mind around.  Meaning, its never wrong, or doing something other than itself.  It doesn't know negative or nuetral.  It does know positive in the sense that it even exists, and as long as it continues creating.  

Every disease or negative condition is that mind experimenting within itself.  Every terrible thing that has ever happened has been a result of a certain moment, a certain cause leading to an effect, created within a conscious reality by that conscious energy.  It doesn't know sufferring on a personal level.  It knows advancement and diversification and growth on a total level.

I have a disability, which is that mind discovering something and exploring something.  

The results of a treatment don't involve a 'blind spot' from the time the word is said to the time the situation is manifested.  Point A to Point B involves a1, a2... a1000, b1, etc.  Point C is also present, doint its own thing as another process.  There are only parallel processes of manifestation, ever-forming an interconnected web of experimentation that includes all the negative and all the positive in the world, in an overall, positively-producing equation which doesn't have anything to do with the way people judge things to be good or bad for themselves.  Situations manifest as a result of the resonance we have.  The purest and loudest resonance is linking up with the one consciousness and the basic methods and characteristics of that one consciousness.
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 5/23/15 6:05 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/23/15 6:05 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
You know, a while back it really hit me that I was ignoring/sidestepping a fundimental fact about reality.  As a materialist, I believe the physical, measurable world is everything there is - yet for some reason I hadn't really considered the implications of what that meant about consciousness.  There is nothing special about neurons, that we know of, which makes them somehow caipable of consciousness while other things aren't, which could mean a lot of things are conscious that we don't really think of as conscious - like a culture, or a city, or rocks.  Also, in the same way that each neuron in my own mind is working as part of a team of neurons, it's quite possible that I am part of a larger consciousness that I am not aware of (and that isn't necessarily aware of me).  I guess the real question is whether consciousness is special or not.  To believe it's special is to believe in a soul - but to believe it isn't special actually makes the whole thing much more complex with much bigger implications.

Anyway, mental science sounds like it's trying to understand and work within that revelation.  I'll have to do some reading. emoticon
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/24/15 1:36 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/24/15 1:36 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Yeah, I don't know whats true.  But I like your thought about the implications of believing consciousness is special.  Unfortunately, I think you'll find that a lot of material on "Mental Science" is new age bs.  Lemme know what you find.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/24/15 2:47 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/24/15 2:47 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Last night I had a talk with a guy who studies Tibetan Buddhism.  It was in a bar while hanging out with mutual acquaintances.  I realized that I felt embarassed to share my meditation efforts.  I don't do any formal sitting ever.  What claim could I possibly have to any real attainments?

This afternoon, I have been listening to the Jay Michaelson talk that someone posted about the origins of mushroom culture.  I'm not really part of any meditation culture, traditional-asian, western-mainstream, etc.  I'm just a guy who does a lot of noting on his own to help cope with a disability.

When thinking about this, I realize that I don't NEED to be part of any culture.  I'd like to try to stop thinking of what I do as Buddhism, or even as spirituality in general, and also not as "pragmatic dharma."  I feel so much pressure when I categorize my efforts like this.  I feel like I need to fit into a mold and compare with the practices of a group of people.

I don't know what I'm doing.  I just know that its working, which is so amazing because so many other things haven't.  I'd like to start being more humble and stop trying to aggressively form and share my ideas about what spirituality is.  The only thing I'm sure of is my direct experience.  I don't know how it fits in with the big picture, I just know this noting-in-daily-life, under Ron's guidance, is working.
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Jake, modified 8 Years ago at 5/24/15 3:41 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/24/15 3:41 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Noah, you really don't do formal sitting?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/25/15 12:49 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/25/15 12:49 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Yeah, I've always been too frustrated to do formal sitting.  Now I probably could but the daily life noting has been so productive... Idk, I have both doubts and confidence.  What do you think?
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Jake, modified 8 Years ago at 5/25/15 8:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/25/15 8:22 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Noah S:
Yeah, I've always been too frustrated to do formal sitting.  Now I probably could but the daily life noting has been so productive... Idk, I have both doubts and confidence.  What do you think?


I think its remarkable that you've been making so much progress by simply noting in daily life. I would say if you are making progress, no need to change anything. 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/25/15 10:23 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/25/15 10:23 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Yeah, thats how I'm feeling lately as well.  When I first skyped with Ron, he had some serious doubts that progress without formal sitting was possible.  But his peer Abre Chen wasn't so surprised to hear it when I met her in person.  So I don't know how many people are doing it.  In general I just want to stay humble and not try to make my practice out to be more than it is (i.e. hardcore sitting for hours with aching legs and back).
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 1:41 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 1:38 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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There are some things you only learn with age.  I was reading a thread on Awake Network about what enlightenment and felt somehow refreshed to read how the practice of real insight has transformed people again and again over the years, well after 4th Path.  And the way this affects life is endless and deep.

I was watching a documentary about Bob Weir, founding member of The Grateful Dead.  He seems to have some amazing perspective and wisdom accumulated over the years.  Some of his comments carry a certain sobriety, perspective and tenor that I would associate with fundamental insight rather than conventional life wisdom.  Then there are the matters of the heart, the way he was opening his palms and asking the crowd to "reflect back joy" at Jerry Garcia's funeral.

Matters of the heart don't make sense.  Matters of faith.  In the end, life is this long endless thing that one has to live with and work with.  I am not where I want to be.  But I hope that meditation is helping build a base so that I can stabilize some wisdom in the long term.  So that I can learn some matters of the heart.

As my girlfriend wakes up in the middle of the night, sunburnt to a crisp and wimpering, I realize that I need to turn of the tv, ac and turn down the computer light to help her sleep.  I am basically addicted to these things and feel bad without them.  But even now, its a little bit easier to let them go.  More significantly, I have the striking feeling that I would do anything to make her happy.  This doesn't feel tied down, it feels freeing.  It feels like Bob Weir opening his hands to the sky, trying to communicate the wordless, one heart feeling-spirit.  What is it?  I keep coming back to this thing that I feel is beyond the confines of meditation techniques.  I have the feeling that the paths in the awakening process simply provide a launching pad to move into this endless ravine.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 7:32 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 7:32 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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Trust and the Distinction Between Developmental Mindfulness Vs Mainstream Mindfulness:

At first glance, the maps seem more esoteric and less accessible than the instructions that form the basis of McMindfulness everywhere.  McMindfulness is about trusting the moment.  Its about cultivating certain qualities in the present moment.  Its about suggesting the increase of presentness in a non-remarkable way.  Developmental dharma is about trusting the future.  Trusting that enlightenment exists and is a state that can be reached.  Its about combining quality with quantity in the most intense and intellegent possible way to bust plateaus and reach a future state of enlightenment.

Based on these descriptions, it seems like McMindfulness is about trust and losing control, whereas the mapping approach is about gaining more control and using willpower.  However, I would argue that the maps require even more trust and loss of control and surrender than the conventional mindfulness instructions.  This is because to use a map you must dumbly follow instructions for a really, really long time without analyzing the qualities that are being developed or putting too much stock into any one moment.  

On the other hand, to use the regular instructions, all you have are those qualities ("lets bring soft awareness into this moment and a compassionate cloud of mush around and through everything") to develop, not the promise that they will someday become automatic.  So, to successfully work the mind without the map, you have to be aware of your meditation MORE, which involves less trust, in my opinion.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/1/15 5:41 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/1/15 5:40 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I think 4th Path is just a taste of completion.  Every 4th Pather I have talked to or read comments from communicates that they feel embedded in their experience at times still.  The point is, IT GOES AWAY.  It comes and goes, its not fixed.  Although the most subtle effects are permanent.  So, it helps me to know what I am looking for.  I am looking for a complete understanding, a pinnacle understanding after which nothing can be added or subtracted.  But, not a fixed lasting state.

But this pinnacle is important for me specifically because it will dramatically minimize my tension energy.  Thats what I'm in it for, not to change my baseline, persay.
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 6/1/15 2:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/1/15 2:15 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
What's the difference between dramatically minimizing tension energy and changing your baseline?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/1/15 10:07 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/1/15 10:07 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Not Tao:
What's the difference between dramatically minimizing tension energy and changing your baseline?


Haha I'm not sure.  I think my reference point for perceptual baseline shift is a wonderfully informative post from Daniel from years ago:
Since the topic has come up so often and been so bandied about so many times by so many people, let me state here what I mean by 4th path, regardless of what anyone else means by it. It has the following qualities:

1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

3) No cycles change or stages or states or anything else like that do anything to this direct comprehension of simple truths at all.

4) There is no deepening in it to do. The understanding stands on its own and holds up over cycles, moods, years, etc and doesn't change at all. I have nothing to add to my initial assessment of it from 9 years ago.

5) There is nothing subtle about it: anything and everything that arises exhibits these same qualities directly, clearly. When I was third path, particularly late in it, those things that didn't exhibit these qualities were exceedingly subtle, and trying to find the gaps in the thing was exceedingly difficult and took years and many cycles. I had periods from weeks to months where it felt done and then some subtle exception would show up and I would realize I was wrong yet again, so this is natural and understandable, and if someone claims 4th as I define it here and later says they got it wrong, have sympathy for them, as this territory is not easy and can easily fool people, as it did me many, many times over about 5 years or so. However, 4th, as I term it, ended that and 9 years later that same thing holds, which is a very long time in this business.

There are other aspects that may be of value to discuss at some other time, but those are a great place to start for those who wish to claim this. If you truly have those, then perhaps we can talk about a few other points that are less central and essential.Now, how there can still be affect (though quite modified in many ways) when there is centerlessness and agencylessness, this is a mystery to the AF kids and to me as well, and that brings me to my next point: there seems to be areas of development depending on what you look for and aim for that may arise independently, and not everything seems to come as a package necessarily. Those things are what I looked for really hard for about 7 years, and that is what I found. Now I find that the interest in the unraveling of what drives that residual affect is arising, and so that investigation happens on its own also.Perhaps people will find this helpful in some way.
So I think minimizing negative tension might be one of those "other aspects" that goes unlisted here.  I think reducing emotional stress of a certain type is just really relevant for me particularly.  I'd imagine someone else would have different positive side effects from the path.  For me, I'm actually becoming less introspective and more grounded and less sensitive.  Another person might become more introspective and sensitive and thereby more grounded.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/2/15 2:35 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/2/15 2:35 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
On Motivation and Meditation In Daily Life:

I always use self-talk to keep myself motivated.  But it has different content at different times.  Sometimes, its about push-push-push, hardcore use of willpower.  And other times, its more relaxed: its not so hard to stay mindful, this is kind of like a way of life, just keep noting and relax into the groove of it.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/4/15 3:38 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/4/15 3:38 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
More on Motivation:

The continuous theme for me is motivation.  It is difficult to note in daily life.  Its hard to stay focused and even harder to sacrifice the quality of my social interactions, effort at work, and activities in other areas.  

The endless, open question (as Vince Horn would put it) for me is: how can I keep this inner-focus a priority above everything else.  Sometimes it feels like I have to allow myself to go a little crazy.  To detach a bit too much, but in a way that keeps me putting meditation-efforts above everything else.  Sometimes I have to stop caring about the material world completely for awhile... to leave all those goals behind in favor of focusing on the sensory elements that build it all up in the first place.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/4/15 9:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/4/15 9:13 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
On Wisdom and Compassion Being Two Sides of the Same Coin:

I have always thought that wisdom is fundamental or ultimate (involving the nature of the world outside of perception) and any emotional component, including compassion, must be secondary or subserviant in that it relies on the subjective or relative experience of the practitioner.  However, I think that what Tantra is trying to say is that there IS NO world outside of our perception.  The world and our process of perception are linked inextricably such that one cannot exist without the other.  There is certainly evidence in science for this.

Listening to the Reggie Ray live stream, I got a "hit" of this information.  When you open up to an experience completely, such that true wisdom can arise, i.e. seeing the 3 C's of in it and through it and as it, you also realize that YOU are having that experience and you can't separate the 3 C's of the object of attention from the process of attention itself.  Therefore, the feelings of vulnerability and rawness and nakedness that come from the wisdom of seeing without filters ARE part of that wisdom.  Vulnerability IS wisdom, not a result of wisdom.  The perciever is in the perception and the percieved. 

Therefore, compassion is fundamental, is ultimate, is wisdom.

edit: Time and space being relative, it might be the case that wise perception and then vulnerability or compassion follows.  However, on the level of the 3 c's, it doesn't matter which comes first.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/7/15 9:08 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/7/15 9:03 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Old Dho Threads I Have Been Reading:

Actual Freedom as 4th Path Experience discussion
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/110245

Why reject the "limited emotional range model" of Enlightenment?
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/96636

As well as Daniel and Tarin's discussion of AF from his website
http://integrateddaniel.info/podcasts-and-videos/

My thoughts on this content:

It seems to me that it is really important to have a sense of security or foundation in one's own practice.  What I mean is that it is beneficial to stay faithful to the same technique for a long enough period to say the immense benefits of that technique manifest in one's own personal experience and moment-by-moment perception.  What I am getting at is that I would never care enough to argue about Actual Freedom a huge amount or risk causing rifts in a sangha for the sake of proving a point.  I am too happy with the way Vipassana is working and the effectiveness of my own practice and my teacher's instruction to get into fights with others.

The way I see it, it is like the difference between codependence and interdependence in relationships: codependence involves an unhealthy amount of investment in the other person (or, in this case, the opinions of others), whereas, interdependence involves a high degree of independent feeling and operating, rendering the need for insecurity and rampant tension useless.  My practice is working too well for me to try to convince others about it.  The Actualism method works too well for others to argue about it.

Other thoughts about the Actualism method:

I think the high degree of certainty and confidence people possess when they claim AF is a problem.  First of all, attainments aren't static.  4th Path certainly isn't like this, based on how other's have described it.  I can say for certain that 3rd Path isn't some continuous, unchanging, locked-in, way of being.  Why should Actual Freedom be static?  Perhaps it is stronger sometimes than others.  Perhaps the somatic charge does sometimes re-arise in those who claim AF.  Who cares?  It is still an impressive shift.  Why does it have to be always-and-forever-never-changing-blah-blah-blah?  

People need to be able to come to a grey area where things aren't certain or extreme on either end of the spectrum.  Eliminating some, but not all, delusion/affect/fetter/etc., needs to be acceptable to have a civilized discussion about this. 

I think the thing that shifts would be some understanding about emotions or about the feeling identity.  Some background sense of it that dissapears, not some permanent mutilation of the foreground content of it.  I would propose that there is such a thing as Actual Freedom but that it isn't as extreme as everyone makes it out to be.  So, to use AFT language, perhaps Virtual Freedom is real, but Actual Freedom is as mythological as a 0 Fetter Arhat.

p.s. it seems that one of the only people who might agree with me would be Chuck, based on his participation in the old discussion linked above.
 


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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 4:14 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/7/15 9:54 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Hi Noah,

I agree with you as well.  I think the ability to be happy, itself, is a huge attainment, and the ability to remain happy or content a majority of the time is even huger. emoticon  I have a feeling that's all anyone's really looking for.  The problems come from uncertainty about what to do, and a pleathora of conflicting teachings.  Attainments become a big deal because people want to find something that works for them (EDIT: and they want proof that their teachers are legit).  We're all kind of on our own at some point, though.  Trusting yourself is the best way to make progress, I think.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:02 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:02 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I've had quite a stressful day to day.  A lot of me just being in my own way, so to speak.  Making problems out of nothing, etc.

I know what I have to do to remedy this, and it doesn't involve meditation, it involves morality.  I need to change my attitude.  There is a way of being I have had at different times in my life that has always, consistently worked to make me conventionally happy.  It is a combination of craziness, toughness, humor and perspective.  

How can I be playful and silly and light-hearted in the face of all things, including the bad things?  The answer seems to lie in a purposeful sloppiness; a refusal to be obsessive or perfectionistic or controlling-of-the-details.

Its not going to be perfect.  Don't try to make it perfect.  I can allow myself to get lost a little bit in this process of insight: losing my mind as a daily-life-yogi.  It won't matter in the end.  Sometimes you have to tough it out.  Sometimes you have to be insensitive to yourself.  Sometimes you have to be insensitive to others.  Allow things to be crazy.  Allow things to be sane.  Allow things to be ordered.  And allow them to be out of control.  

And make a joke out of everything.  Make a joke out of me and you and our relationship.  Make a joke out of all of life.

And grit your teeth.  And smile.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/10/15 7:03 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/10/15 7:03 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

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I'm doing a little mental science/loa/magick/intentional work here:

When I go to do a Spiritual Mind Treatment for getting 4th Path, or to create a sigil for "I AM AN ARHAT", or whatever else, I realize that I am getting caught in the thicket of views.  I am too absorbed in the form and technique of it, and not enough in the content of what I am seeking (4th Path) and in the understanding or insight into how the magickal-intentional process actually occurs.

Case-in-point, I go to start the Spiritual Mind Treatment, and I immediately feel agitation in the body, a common hindrance of mine.  I realize I am doing it wrong.  I look in my copy of "Science of Mind", by Ernest Holmes, and see various sections which trigger a memory of how this process is really supposed to go.  Everything in the Mind of God is easy.  Everything is in flow, in harmony.  God does not require more 'effort' to move a mountain then a grain of sand.  Its the difference between moving a finger and moving an arm.  Its just an intention sent from the brain through the nerve network and it just happens.  

So, I decided to "catch" the idea of 4th Path as it exists in my unmanifest vortex.  I used self-talk: Isn't it so easy to be like this?  Isn't it so wonderful, the actual, real thing, this enlightenment which heals the mind, heals the energy body, provides a type of relief I can actually rely on?  It is the Third Path feeling I have now, amplified, and with added effects I can't possibly predict.  

This 4th Path state exists, in reality, as an idea, here and now.  I have "caught" that idea.  I am claiming it.  It is for me.  It is now happening to me.

There are other ideas that are now manifest that may need to be given up, or need to step out of the way a little.  One is the idea of progress, it must be secondary to my goal!  If I could get 4th Path tomorrow, I would!  I am more attached to enlightenment than I am to my sadhana.  That is very important.  Another, related idea is struggle, pessimism, grinding toughness, etc.  The whole struggle mood I have with this path.  It is necessary as a tool for perserverance, but it is also secondary to the final goal.  It is an illusion compared to the reality of the oncoming 4th Path.  

Anything that would or could get in the way of me getting 4th Path as quickly and efficiently as possible I now declare as a false belief.  I am dissolving all obstacles on the level of ideas and will watch them inevitably melt away on the level of the material. 

:-) <3
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/14/15 8:45 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/14/15 8:43 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Tonight's Thoughts on the Actualism Method:

There are a lot of things involved in the Actualism method, here is a numbered list, in no particular order (lol):

1) Stripping away the socio-cultural identity.
2) Stripping away the primal-animalistic identity.
3) Cultivating felicitous feelings.
4) Admiring the sensuous nature of physical reality.
5) Direct pointing towards apperception, aka cultivating a PCE.
6) Observing, understanding and becoming disenchanted with the nature of emotion, both positive and negative.
7) Cultivating a worldview/mindset that "time" does not exist, the world is eternal, the spatial universe is endless, etc.
8) Using all the above to encourage the willful, self-imolation of the feeling-being inside.

I will probably need to seek out a mentor for the Actualism method, just as I have for vipassana.  What is more likely is that I will benefit from talking to several Actualists on a regular basis.  I don't like ambiguity in dharma-diagnosing myself.  If I can get several experts to agree, I will be able to feel certain.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/15/15 4:35 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/15/15 4:35 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
So I did a spiritual mind treatment for attaining actual freedom and watched what came up in my mind over the past few hours.  Interestingly, the actualism method doesn't quite feel right.  I'm not really sure going for a purely physically existent state that sort of bars the other options of seeing the coolness of the inner world as well is the right thing to do.  I don't think I'm done with Buddhist training yet, even though insight feels very piqued.  I feel very much immediately and continuously in touch with the suchness of cause and effect.  My self is apart yet distinctly one with the world.  My self is quie obviously arising as part of the rest of the arising moment.  And passing too, although thats not as obvious.

But my goal is to be able to get a job, to be able to discipline myself to eat healthy and exercise, to have balanced and positive, healthy emotions, etc.  My approach has been to try to reach a plateaued state where all this normal functioning occurs automatically.  But part of wisdom (seeing 3 C's, dependent origination, cause and effect, 4 noble truths, etc) is to realize that this goal is bullshit.  Life will always require work and adjustments.  Being free from suffering means being free from needing to identify with phenomenon as they arise.  It does not mean being free from work.

And Buddhism has a formula for how to accomplish my goal of being a healthy, functioning person.  It involves learning and honing the skill of discipline to feel one way and act another while observinng the mechanics of craving.  It also involves cultivating a friendly and unconditionally positive relationship will all things that arise, inside and out, and all people that one comes into contact with.  It also involves skillfully using conceptual thought: having faith and confidence that what one is doing is the right path and that it will lead to good results  Also, there are the jhanas.  Even if they don't grant permanent freedom from duality-based stress, they help to heal the mind as it learns to truly let go into deeper levels.  Disciplined action is also related to ethical action, being a good person, which is also related to cultivating friendliness.  Also, there is the importance of participating with other people who are interested in this path and have some success with it.

So I have a huge amount of work to do.  I don't know if I should abandon all of this possibility of learning to work with reality by becoming further removed from one aspect (affect/passion).
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/16/15 7:06 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/16/15 6:20 AM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Should I shoot for Actual Freedom or should I shoot for mastery of the Brahma Viharas and whatever type of healing and behaviroal change comes with that?

It occurred to me that Actual Freedom is not bad as a final goal, and that practice with the Brahma Viharas, as well as any number of other objects and methods, could be useful on the path to AF.  Even if I don't get Actual Freedom, if it feels useful to me as a final target to help set my course, than that is fine.  I need to set my course in a certain direction.  Its just how I am.  I'm not someone who can practice without a goal.

Kindness is part of this overall course I have to set for myself.  Sympathetic Joy and Compassion also make sense as part of the orientation of being a good guy.  There is a lot of ground work to be done.  HAIETMOBA has a part to play.  BV's have a part to play.  Morality, Concentration and Insight have their parts to play.

This path is one that goes beyond forms and labels.  I know I am on it because it feels real.  The need to pick sides is pure illusion.

The translation is debatable, but here goes the famous (and relevant) Rumi line:

Out beyond ideas of Islam and unbelief,
There is a field,
I will meet you there.

Beyond the seeming differences between various contemplative trainings, there is a way of being, a process of attainments in the direction of the nondual.  There is not one right way to head in the direction of the nondual.  Furthermore, there is not one final destination that all practitioners will reach.  Rather, there are probably some commonalities in the baseline perceptions of those who have been successful.

I feel that, for me, aiming for Actual Freedom as the final goal helps to set the course, to rouse the Energy and Joy factors of enlightenment.  This does not mean that I only have to do the Actualism method and it also does not mean that the Actualism method must be right for everyone.  In general, we are all part of the same club of people who are interested in weird meditation stuff and not as interested in sports, pop culture and the weather.
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It seems to be very valuable to learn to be okay with where I am at.  To be okay with my personality traits and what I am feeling at given time.  This seems to be an important stepping stone on the path.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/20/15 1:38 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/20/15 1:36 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Even though I feel like this is premature, and therefore potentially unskillful, I am going to detail a potential way to map my own course of investigation along this path of development (insight).

A few notes beforehand:
         I am totally unidentified with the type of spiritual experience described on the AFT website.  In fact, the type of development that seems to be occuring as a result of the new burmese method of vipassana seems to have much in common with the apperceptiveness, sensuousness, and felicity that is described on the website.  I see little difference (in the basic or fundamental quality being developed) between the free, open awareness of mind that includes the inner-spectrum and the pure consciousness of sensate-reality that excludes the inner-spectrum.
          One way of framing this connection would be to say that acutalism and vipassana are both forms of investigation.  While one investigates reality by looking the emotion-process, the identity-process, the sensate-percieving-process and the relationship between them, the other investigates reality by looking at the 3 characteristics of impermanence, not-self, and stress.  Theoretically, one could see the actualism method as a natural follow-up to reaching a certain peak of understanding within the vipassana method.

4th path develops a perfect platform of mindfulness, a perfect freedom from inside the mind and body capsule, an ability to perfectly be just where one is, at any time.

From this point, one has the option to begin investigating the emotion-forming process, and how this is related to the formation of various layers of the identity or ego.  This investigation is to be balanced with a knowing of the continuous inflow of physical, sensate, data.  One is to watch how the inner communication between various parts of the self can be purposefully interrupted when one's attention is in tune with sensate reality.

It should be noted that some of this type of investigation has probably occured previously, within the efforts of vipassana.  The difference is the shift into making affect and identity the primary objects.  The 3 C's of all reality (including inner and outer) are no longer the primary object.

Eventually, the entire emotional-identity-formation chain is to be deconstructed, and seen through as an illusion.  The sensate-perceiving-process is to be strengthened and reidentified with.  Whether or not it is possible to permanently eliminate all emotion forever, it could be skillful to lose a sense of faith or care or significance for emotions and for the subtle layers of background identity that underlie emotions.

Vipassana seems to cause a certain loss of faith in the solidity of all reality, all objects, including the self.  It is not as if one will permanently be locked into the vipassanizing lens which deconstructs, but rather that certain peak experiences of seeing th 3 c's will shift the foundation of one's awareness forever.  In the same way, it is not as if one will be locked into a PCE forever, but rather that the insights obtained from the PCE will uproot the sense of faith in the emotional-identity process.  Delusional fabrications (i.e. seemingly solid or continuous objects, a seemingly sticky, affective charge in the body) will still arise in awareness, but the difference is that there is a dispassion for them, so they are no problem.

This is what I am looking for when I think of the Actualism method.

Running the software of the Actualism method does not preclude the possibility of later returning to vipassana software, or later moving on to more advanced concentration software or brahma vihara software.

A map is useful up until the point where the mind-state it produces outlasts the map.  At this point, the map should be thrown away and a new map can be developed or discovered, as a skillful means for further refinement of awareness.
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 6/20/15 10:40 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/20/15 10:33 PM

RE: Noah's log of obsessing about dharma, sila and the way it all fits toge

Posts: 995 Join Date: 4/5/14 Recent Posts
Hey Noah,

There's something I've found very helpful lately that might give you a jump start.  I said this in another thread, but there seem to be two aspects of practice.  One is the problem of emotional suppression and control, and the other is emotional triggering.  I think vipassana deals with suppression.  Each sensation is allowed to come up as it is.  But the interesting second part to this is that, even though emotions are out of our direct control, we can still modify the conceptual basis that causes emotions to arise.

I've read a lot of accounts of AF practice that sound a lot like suppression.  Trying to maintain and fixate the awareness on something, like the present moment or sensory information, is actually kind of odd if you think about it.  Is the goal to stop thinking, stop imagining, both, more than that?  What does any of that really have to do with the feeling of stress?  I've thought about this a lot, actually.  I've whittled the goal down to something very, very simple for myself.  When stress is happening, the only thing I actually want to change is the feeling.  It isn't the situation that's the problem, it isn't where my attention is, it isn't the thoughts that are happening, it isn't the enviroment that's the problem, it isn't the relationship I have with objects or my surroundings.  It's always, very simply, a painful physical feeling that I want to go away.  After watching carefully, I've noticed that the same situations can happen with different feelings, and it's never consistent what/where/who/how/ect, it's just the feeling that's the problem.  If a bad feeling is present, it can make a very simple problem seem huge and horrible.  The same is true for a positive feeling - maybe something horrible is happening, but if there are no negative feelings, it's easy to deal with the situation.

So, it's kind of an odd problem.  We are driven back and forth by feelings and they aren't under our control. Suppressing them makes them worse.  What can we really do?  The answer seems to lie at the very core of who we are, and I think this is why the Buddha emphasized impermanence.  Our intellect, or the thing we most identify as "who I am" - like a core identity - this is what actually triggers feelings.  So each time a feeling comes up, it's because, at a very deep "who I am" level, we decide that's how we want to feel.  Here's an example: There is a girl at work who always gives me a hard time.  I seem to understand intellectually that the things she's saying don't actually matter, but feelings of resentment will still come up.  This didn't make much sense at first, but after analyzing the situation a bit I realized I was connecting each comment with my survival.  When I first started at this new job, I had been self-employed for most of my life.  My old job was no longer making any money, and this new job seemed like my only opportunity for survival.  From the beginning, it wasn't very clear who my actual boss was, so every insinuation that I was doing something wrong cut very deep.  Reguardless of my current understanding of the situation, I can still see this pathway connecting each negative comment.  So, on the AFT, Richard often says a person has to give up all their beliefs and ideals to become free.  I don't think this is just pointing to political beliefs or spiritual beliefs, it's pointing to all of those deep connections to the survival instict - or, you could say, the survival instinct itself.  But this thing hides very well, and it actually hides in plain sight, because we APPROVE of it.

So, anyway, the good news is that you don't have to track everything down through the line of reasoning that triggered the emotion.  It's good to know how that works and see it in action, but it doesn't have to be a constant effort.  It turns out the core of all of these triggers - the very basis of ever reason we have for feeling emotion - boils down to what we think the meaning of life is.  This is the conceptual basis I referenced at the beginning of my rant here, haha.  I think that stress is actually the manifestation of the absurd - or the way the things we give meaning are always changing, fading, dying, and disappearing.  This actually seems to be the main thread in the Buddha's teaching as well - contemplate imperminance and take nothing as your self!

So why is the meaning of life the problem?  Because life has no meaning!  If you think the meaning of life is to have a good family, you eventually have to face the death of family members, or rebellious children, or a spouse that leaves you.  If you think the meaning of life is to be a good person, you end up having to confront people who walk all over you or take things from you.  It goes deeper and deeper - if you want to be a good artist, standing in line at the store becomes suffering since you aren't practicing.  Even if you simply want to be happy, and you turn this into a goal, you have to deal with wayward emotions and your own lack of control.  The meaning we give to life is at the very core of our being, and it's the thing all stress emerges from.

These days, I've just been reminding myself of two things - I can't control how I feel, and life has no meaning.  Whatever you want to happen, it doesn't matter.  Whatever goals you have, they are ultimately worthless.  This isn't a negative thing, though.  A meaningless life is perfect - there are no expectations to upset, nothing to go wrong, nowhere to be, nothing to do.  Sitting on your couch has the same value as conducting a simphony or being a bit of dirt on the bottom of the ocean.  It doesn't turn you into a lifeless slug, it just releases you from stress.

Does this make sense?  I think it's hard to state it in a "nice" way, even though it's possibly the greatest thing I've ever seen for myself.  You're just off the hook.  All suffering is self imposed because you want to be something specific.  Just be completely anonymous and completely free.  Be nothing, be empty, be worthless, be undefined, let go, dissipate.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/24/15 9:32 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Not Tao,

Your post above was very helpful and I've pondering it the past few days.  I think working with emotions in a way that is inspired by your words will be very helpful to me at a certain point in my development, specifically when I have enough groundedness and mental space to do so.

For now (and this is related to another post I wish to make, below), I will classify such work with emotions as "morality" training.  However, when done with enough depth and at the most basic level, it is obviously more like "wisdom" training.

I continue to make use of your writing, 

thank you
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/24/15 9:41 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Reconciling all the different maps and the possibility of post 4th path development:

This is how I am thinking lately.  Whenever I am noticing the 3 C's, noticing cause and effect, disembedding from experience, trying to cognize ripgpa, or noticing how everything is a relative experience, I am doing "insight" training whose result is "wisdom."

Wisdom unfolds in stages or plateaus.  I believe these stages can ultimately be mapped across all humans and cultures, even though they vary by individual and time/place.  I don't think the use of the term "4th path" to describe the end of wisdom development, after which no wisdom development is possible, makes sense.  I think it makes more sense to use 4th path as an optional end-point, or at least, a radical turning point, for the life and training of the yogi.  4th path is the ending of preference as we know it.  It is the point after which the yogi's relationship to experience will never quite be the same.

Further development is fully possible.  This is suggested by actualist method (when freed from the its useless dogma), suggested by the book, 'Clarifying the Natural State', suggested by Kenneth's 8 stage model, etc.  

The bottom line for me is that I like to have signs along the way.  I will continue insight training at least until I reach a certain peak point of mental health and functioning, and at most, until the day that I die.

I am happy all of this stuff is possible.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 9:33 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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What I personally mean by '4th path':

What I mean by 4th path is a full surrender into the moment, after which the center point or sense of self can never fully be believed, ever again.  It is the deep, intuitive understanding that everything is an experience.

The distinction is that i can intuitively sense the truth or know the truth without seeing/hearing/feeling it all the time.  Meaning, I don't have to walk around in perfect luminsoity, volitionlessness, centerlessness, agencylessness, totality/completeness, to KNOW (deep in my body, in my bones) that these things are the true nature of reality.  

My brain doesn't have to always be locked in to cognizing these effects for me to get the not-stress benefits of the experience of not-self.  And these benefits are what I want.  I am not committed to developing the fully enlightened perspective.  I am committed to reaching a certain critical mass of low-suffering.

Perhaps we should think of a better term than 4th path for this, or perhaps not.  At the very least, know that this is what I mean when I say it.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 9:57 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Upaya, and my 4th path definition:

I realize that I have lost the spirit of upaya in the scramble to figure out what the hell 4th path really is lately.  This is something I have known the whole time, something my parents, as mental-health professional and yogis since the 1970's themselves, have taught me.  

From the wikipedia definition for upaya:
The implication is that even if a technique, view, etc., is not ultimately "true" in the highest sense, it may still be an expedient practice to perform or view to hold; i.e., it may bring the practitioner closer to the true realization in a similar way.

4th path, as I have been thinking of it, has been incredibly helpful in motivating me to practice with vigor and intellect.  Therefore, I conclude that I should finish the damn thing up, as I have been thinking of it, and not as others have.
What this means for me, experience wise is that I don't have to make luminosity-perception my baseline in order to know that localized awareness is bullshit when I feel it.  I don't have to make agencyless-perception my baseline in order to know that the sense of willpower that types these words is not real.  In my opinion, it is the "knowing" that reduces stress.  The perceptual effects are just optional add-ons.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 10:23 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hi, Noah.

When you say "knowing" in this context do you mean intellectually or in a deeper, grokking/felt sense? In my experience the intellectual form of knowing precedes the deeper knowing, but the deeper knowing is the real tipping point that flips perception in a permanent way such that the sense of an agent, a privileged center point to perception, is fully seen through.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 10:51 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Chris,

I only mean the deeper knowing, the grokking.

These discussions have helped me define for myself what I want, which is the deep intuition of the truth.  In my experience thus far (and it is very possible I haven't gone far enough with this), the only 'ultimate' truth is that the world is made up of 'relative' truths.  Every mind state or quality of mind is another experience, bearing equal testament to the 3 C's.

I don't trust the development of "qualities" of perception to happen quickly enough to benefit my current situation or that they can ever be stabilized as permanent or continuous.  In contrast, I fully trust the deeper grokking.  Perhaps this intuitive knowing could be analyzed and said to be another quality of perception, but I would not find such inquiry skillful.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 10:56 AM
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Very cool, Noah!
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/27/15 2:20 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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There is always the ever-adjusting conceptual framework and personal philosophy.  I have come to fully accept it as a work in progress.  The process of shaping my thoughts in ever-more refined ways, is, the benefit, itself.  The idea that some resulting, perfect-in-every-way paradigm would be the benefit, is bs.

So, I seem to have eliminated this sense of 'caring' or preferring any one experience to any other experience.  However, I realize now that I need to take this thing way further to get the relief-from-suffering benefit and the real-world results that I have been looking for.  It is true, what I thought before; I don't need to stabilize or hardwire certain types of ultimate or fundamental perception in order to recognize the deluded nature of my current perception.

The thing is, this 'recognition' isn't enough for me.  I am not satisfied.  So I have decided to push it further, regardless of how such efforts would line up with any given dharma map.

Instead of just trying to intuitively feel not-self and drop into a background sense of surrender in the moment, I am doing more obvious, moment-by-moment perceptual exploration of the body, the mind, the senses, the self-sense, etc.  Its like an excavation of sorts, chipping away the dirt surrounding different layers and aspects of 'my' being, and hopefully, loosening these layers permanently such that they can be seen as forms of flow, rather than solids.

------------------------------------------------------------------

There are different 'logics' to my internal and external worlds.  I see my external world as purely physical, it is easier to objectify it and disembed from it.  Even from my own physical body.

However, my internal world has always been my own.  It is the thing that I am in possession of.  It is the reason I practice: to slowly make it a more peaceful and easy place to be.  The whole basis of the internal world is that it can change, 'I', can change it.  

But now the practice has gotten to a certain point; I no longer believe that I am benefitting from the insight cycles.  For me, the insight cycles have been, on a bare, sensate/energetic level, an automatic process of purification, but also on a cognitive/emotional level, a lesson in preference; refrain from preferring any one experience to any other, for there is no point.  I believe I have accomplished that and learned these lessons.  This effort included, in its results, a sense that I shouldn't reject feeling of possessiveness, feelings of self, and feelings of inconsistency between inner and outer perception.

In order to progress further, I must favor certain perceptions over others.  There is an inconsistency in the way that I view internal and external phenomena.  They should follow only one logic: the 3 C's, or ultimate reality.  Everything is pre-programmed.  Everything is just happening.  Nothing is more me than anything else, therefore, 'me', simply doesn't exist at all.  

This is like ripping everything all the way open.  I can't be a self anymore.  I can't be committed to changing or improving myself.  I can only only commit to seeing the one truth, which has never included 'me', in the first place.

Oh the rejection! :p
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/28/15 4:49 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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6/28

This is a bit of a confessional, and also divergent from what is common fare on the dho.  I don't care about that, because, I see radical transformation as a thing that is necessary on all levels, from the most fundamental to the most mundane.  Whether or not I separate the 3 trainings or try and integrate them in a way that is still hardcore and pragmatic, I still have to deal with my life's problems.

I think I might join a 12 step group.  I had this as a weird and unexpected insight tonight.  I am not addicted to alcohol, or any other one substance (although I have been in the past).  I am addicted to eating, television, writing, reading, thinking, masturbating, laziness, lying down, air conditioning, feelings of safety, being entertained, sleeping, and several others.  These are all things I do to keep myself feeling good (compulsive behaviors, see below), feeling stable, feeling suppressed or tranquilized.  I am 23, I have an incredibly messy room, I make very little money despite having just gotten a college degree, and some days (such as today) I just sit and watch tv in my room which is in my parents house.

I try to explain to my friends that psychological insight is like looking at cells through a microscope, whereas spiritual insight is like looking at atoms.  Some of them understand it.  What is important is that atoms make up cells, and cells make up the rest of life.  

There is something between the levels of mundane, everyday affairs, and deep spirituality.  At this middling, psychological level, I think I am addicted to just about anything that will make me not have to be in the raw danger of the present moment.  Sila isn't about changing behavior, its about changing the underlying psychodynamics.  

I am thinking really clearly.  The exercise of trying to see luminosity is having good side-effects.  There is nothing special about the 12 step program.  It would just be more skillful means, if I decide to go through with it.

These are both quotes from wikipedia:
A twelve-step program is a set of guiding principles (sometimes accepted by members as being 'spiritual principles') outlining a course of action for tackling problems including alcoholism, drug addiction and compulsion
Compulsive behaviors are a need to reduce apprehension caused by internal feelings a person wants to abstain or control.

Most practices geared toward personal transformation involve shifting deeper levels of mind in ways that are major enough to eventually automatically cause more skillful inner and outer outlooks and behavior.  

I wish things were easier, but they are not.  If there is one thing I have reaffirmed
 in the past 2 years of practice under the 'pragmatic dharma' banner, it is that major changes only occur when one makes something the project of one's life.  It has to be the goal, one with utmost importance.  Only than can one start to break the habitual patterns that have been virtually set in stone.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 6/28/15 11:05 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah, I wish you stillness. I wish you and end to churning and seeking. Think about just taking a breather for while. That may help more than you think.
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bernd the broter, modified 8 Years ago at 6/28/15 12:42 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah S:

I think I might join a 12 step group.  I had this as a weird and unexpected insight tonight.  I am not addicted to alcohol, or any other one substance (although I have been in the past).  I am addicted to eating, television, writing, reading, thinking, masturbating, laziness, lying down, air conditioning, feelings of safety, being entertained, sleeping, and several others.  These are all things I do to keep myself feeling good (compulsive behaviors, see below), feeling stable, feeling suppressed or tranquilized.  I am 23, I have an incredibly messy room, I make very little money despite having just gotten a college degree, and some days (such as today) I just sit and watch tv in my room which is in my parents house.

Air conditioning? dafuq?

on topic: Have you ever been on a retreat? Those things you list are common coping strategies, but people aren't actually addicted to them.
If you are on retreat, you suddenly discover that you're completely fine without all of them.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/28/15 9:13 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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@Chris: All I can say is thank you.

@Bernd: Perhaps addiction isn't the right word.  What literally is happening is that I have desires that manifest as repeated behaviors that damage me in various ways and completely interfere with more skillful behaviors.  'Addiction', 'compulsion', '12 steps', etc., are all just labels and structures used to help oneself change.  

I went on a 10 day zen sessin after stream entry in March.  Even though it was after stream entry and was 10 days of nonstop sitting, I was literallly restless and anxious and fighting myself the entire time.  I never stopped pining for my computer, my tv, my whatever.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/1/15 7:39 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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All perception is illusory.  There is the 'knowing' of this, which reduces suffering.  This is what I seek.  From this view, no perception is better than another.

However, it is also true that some modes or qualities of perception are better than others, in that they are more effective in reducing suffering.  This is also what I seek.  From this view, certain ways of perceiving are better than others.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/6/15 3:02 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I was looking over the AF Yahoo group and thought it was interesting that people are putting so much emphasis on integration, sila, and self-help in their actualism practice rather than trying to completely separate the two.  I think any spiritual/insight process will be psychotherapuetic and provide other tangible benefits when one follows it all the way.  Its just that these things are hard to measure and completely subjective.  However, there probably isn't something inherently therapuetic about either vipassana or actualism, meaning, it is probably possible to go very far with both methods and purposely not try to improve one's personality and actions.  The core is still in fundamental insight, not conventional  wisdom.  I just think its interesting to emphasize the relative changes in behavior that occur in the spiritual process.  To me, these are the most important parts.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/6/15 4:15 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I just had a conceptual insight into the idea of 'sainthood' and 'sanitized beings.'  I have known for a long time, since before discovering pragmatic dharma, that sainthood is probably a myth.  However, I just felt for the very first time, an absolutely certain feeling of realization that it is a total myth.  I was reading the old thread "Why Reject "the limited emotional range" Model of Enlightenment?", and thinking about the comments within in relation to my hopes for a certain type of static, unchanging relief from negative impulses and emotions.  I realize that I have always held certain "spiritual champions" in high regard in some deep-seated, immature part of my mind, even though the more surface-level, logical, mature parts had accepted that there are no perfect people.

Imagine being an esteemed spiritual teacher who his held to be god by a lot of regular humans around him.  This teacher is a regular human with modified, improved, baseline perception, and these changes are what are worshipped by the students.  The teacher got these changes through months and years of diligent, intellegent mind-hacking.  The students want to believe they are impossible to achieve. 

What ends up happening is that the teacher sees it all as a game, and the students are his/her pawns, and ends up seeing how many spaces they can push these pawns towards financial, sexual, and emotional sacrifice.  It happens to sooooo many teachers.  They can't all just be purely psychopaths.

I still hold out hope that there are some "good one's" that have taught in recent times or currently teach.  One person I have heard no drama about is Tuangpulu Sayadaw.  But even if he didn't give in to the "game" described above, does that mean that he didn't have urges?  Does that mean that he never wanted to have sex?  Granted, this guy was probably as close to a 10-fetter arhat as anyone, and yet I still think it is likely that his mind had movement, had interaction with his environment, had some set of influences from his childhood, from the feelings of horniness in his adolescence, etc.  They might have been completely different from the original, corrupt forms, just as our bodies, consist of completely different cells from the one's we had 15 years ago.  However, there are still momentums.

Momentum is inescapable.  I will never transcend momentum, karma, interconnectedness, cause & effect.  Actual Freedom, technical 4th path, sutta 4th path, the 'Rainbow Body', the 10 bhumis..... I believe that no matter what I do to my mind, it will still be subject to momentum.

It is a very specific thing to say that sainthood does not exist.  Sainthood means greed, hatred and delusion are completely uprooted.  However, there is still soil where these plants used to be.  There is a hole where they used to be that will be filled with some other energy.  The impressions of these sins still exist in the mind in another form, then another form, then another form, forever. 

This journey isn't 'going anywhere.'  Thats not the point of practice.  The point is to realize that there is only motion.  The whole of incarnation is in motion.  And the way this motion is known is also purely more motion.  The entire thing is unstable.  The entire thing will be totally different in 1000 years and is changing every second.  How can labels ever apply?  How could we ever have believed in static attainments?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 12:35 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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It is not just the bare attention, but also the content of thoughts, that needs to be worked with.  This has been true for me, as I have slowly given up certain thoughts about what happiness means, or about feeling certainty where there should be none.  There are some things I need to slowly release.  I need to release the habit of talking obsessively, tensely and passionately about things like meditation and psychology to dharma friends, or anyone who will listen.  This is mental masturbation.  I need to give up the thought of a quick route out of my disability. 

This personality, this life, this situation of mine, is acceptable.  It makes sense that this is how things have turned out.  I need to stop turning away from it, grasping at something else, grasping at 4th path, at af, at metta, at sutta-style jhanas, as possible "ways out."  The grasping is keeping me in, keeping me imprisoned.

When I don't grasp, I notice that my awareness has developed quite greatly.  I am much more "okay" then I was in the past.  There is a muscle of thought that keeps arising in my mind.  There is a way that I honor this muscle of thought.  The worship of this powerful pattern is the problem.  The belief that I can 'think my way out' of things.  Thought has its place in the practice.  I believe the yoga school might call this jnana yoga, the tibetans have their way of analysis, and it certainly holds a certain place on the 8fold path.  But I think too much.

This is a part of my disability. 

I see.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 2:17 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Imagine if there was a pill you could take that would temporarily put you in the mindset of technical 4th path.  This pill would obviously be different for different people.  People's metabolisms, personal histories, philosophies, memories, genetics, and other factors, would all come in to play to effect how people experienced the state.  This differing factors would also contribute to the way people would attempt to describe the state afterwards. 

Included in this scenario is the idea that no one knows that enlightenment exists, so they don't have words and paradigms from various traditions to help support their descriptions.  Rather, each person would individually have to struggle with language.

Some people would say that "when I really tune in, this feels utterly centerless, volitonless, total/complete, etc."

Other people would say "wow, I simply feel done.  I don't feel the need to push or pull in any direction."

Some would say there is no-self.  Others would say that there is a self. but it isn't any more special than anything else.  A whole other group would say that everything is energy or spirit or god's will, and they are simplly a part of that flow of will.  A subset of this group would posit that there is a separate force that is independent of change and causing it.  Etc, etc, down the line it goes.

All of these people have basic human dna, have a brain, a body, etc.  They are all members of the same species and share the same basic sentience and mental processing mechanisms.  Furthermore, they have all taken the same pill which contains the enlightenment chemical of this alternate reality.

For everyone, the expereince would be significant.  For some people, the expereince would be dramatic/total/the-end-of-the-journey/foreground-change, for others, it would be subtle/a-new-beginning/a permanent, but mostly-background change.  This foreground/background-obvious/subtle distinction is my main point, the one I feel that many pragmatic dharma yogis would not like to admit.   4th path is probably different for everyone.

Who is right?

Is it possible that different people simply experience it differently, and that enlightenment is not an exception to the total uncertainty and diversity that is life?
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 6:11 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Is it possible that different people simply experience it differently, and that enlightenment is not an exception to the total uncertainty and diversity that is life?


Noah, in my experience, and from talking to others, technical 4th path has common characteristics. It's not like a Rorschach image that folks define according to personal tastes. It's the culmination of a long process of careful investigation into the nature of perception and experience. That investigation leads to some common results among those who engage with it. Nor do I think it is a "background" change. It's a pretty radical alteration in the way a person sees the process of perception.

For example, it becomes obvious that the subject-object duality is the way human beings automatically perceive things, and yet it is the end of that automatic assumption because it also becomes obvious that there is, ultimately, no subject-object duality. Things, objects, including the self, are empty, void of inherent existence as separate entities, dependent entirely on the existence of everything else.

Saying this for clarity...
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 10:11 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Thank you, Chris,

In terms of the common characteristics you have discovered and the idea of ending the automatic assumption of the subject-object divide: would you say that the subject-object divide dissapears completely, and obviously, all the time, in the perception of the 4th pather?  Or is it sometimes more obvious than others? 

This is a fascination of mine, so I'm really trying to find some certainty/clarity.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 10:41 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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 ... would you say that the subject-object divide dissapears completely, and obviously, all the time, in the perception of the 4th pather?  Or is it sometimes more obvious than others? 

The subject-object duality only disappears completely when one is in a cessation. Otherwise it is always present, at least in subtle ways. What seems to happen is that there is a knowledge that is maintained, a deeply felt knowledge that perception itself is based on duality, that perception and consciousness are dependently arising, just like all other concepts/objects. This duality can be reduced, and is generaly reduced dramatically, after the 4th path event and objects can be "softened" and we can can have a lot of freedom and space, but when we are conscious this duality cannot completely disappear.

I would argue that stream entry, that cessation, is our first introduction to the deep nature of perception. It is our first taste of the deep connection between the existence of objects (and subjects) and the existence of consciousness. Prior to that event, perception automatically creates the subject-object duality and it is not examnined, not understood, not visible in the way that meditiation eventually reveals to us. It is not known. In the knowing is the magic (I'm referring here not to intellecual knowledge but deeply felt meditative experience based knowldge).

Make sense?


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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 11:37 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/9/15 11:37 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Yeah, absolutely.  That is how I feel, in the body, although perhaps not quite as much yet.  It does make perfect sense.  Well said.
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Dream Walker, modified 8 Years ago at 7/10/15 12:20 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/10/15 12:04 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah S:
For everyone, the expereince would be significant.  For some people, the expereince would be dramatic/total/the-end-of-the-journey/foreground-change, for others, it would be subtle/a-new-beginning/a permanent, but mostly-background change.  This foreground/background-obvious/subtle distinction is my main point, the one I feel that many pragmatic dharma yogis would not like to admit.   4th path is probably different for everyone.

Who is right?

Is it possible that different people simply experience it differently, and that enlightenment is not an exception to the total uncertainty and diversity that is life?
There is obviously a language difference in describing the attributes to 4th path. Then there are the actual differences of attributes and sub attributes reported from different yogis.
Then there is the other problem not often spoken of - http://nonsymbolic.org/PNSE-Article.pdf page 25
PNSE (Persistent Non-Symbolic Experiences) was often accompanied by a tremendous sense of certainty that participants were  experiencing a ‘deeper’ or ‘more true’ reality. As time passed, this often  increased in strength .  This sense of internally experienced truth often led to a form of dogmatism, especially among  participants who had only experienced one location on the continuum .  Due to the certainty they  felt, these participants had difficulty  accepting that  individuals who described their experience s differently  were actually  experiencing PNSE .  Participants with dogmatic tendencies felt like  theirs was  the correct and true version of the experience. When asked to contrast their experience  with the data collected from one or more other participants, these  participants would often  definitively state that I was obviously having difficulty understanding what was and was not a  valid  PNSE  experience.
So when you get whatever it is....you think it's IT....Truth with a capitol "T" and it cant possibly be other that what you experience. This bias or "built in attribute to non-dual" seems to be an important aspect to keep in mind.
If you get perceptual shifts then that must be part of the definition. If you do not get perceptual shifts that must be part of the definition.  See the problem?
So even if we could list all the attributes of "4th path" and bypass the language differences, each yogi would claim that only a certain combination is the real deal as that is their experience and anything beyond their experience is just that.

Why does this have to be so complicated....emoticon
~D
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/10/15 3:05 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/10/15 3:05 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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D,

I suppose it doesn't actually have to be treated this complicated.  As in, the reality of people getting enlightened is actually happening outside of our interpretations and stories and therefore is simple/straightforward. 

Two more things come to mind for me.  One is that this type of overcomplicated discussion format is helpful for me (and perhaps others) as a practice in Right Thought/Right View.  Something about "figuring it out" allows me to later drop the subject entirely in favor of a simpler mode of thinking and a quieter mind.  The second thing is that for me, the bottom line is that I expect to reach some 'big experience' whose change will bring on enough positive, mental health side-effects such that I feel satisfied and am ready to stop the intense seeking.  So there is some sense of closure that I'm looking for that will be an indicator for me, beyond any particular outside definition of 4th path.

But yeah, that is a really interesting point... that there is this sense of 'realness' or absoluteness that people get at enlightenment that makes them potentially clingy to their own experience being the ultimate truth.  Definitely something to keep in mind as a cautionary tale.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:01 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:01 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Motivation Self-Talk

Previous Attitudes:


Okay, now its time for some motivating self-talk that I do, at times, to help create the right attitude or approach to practice.  In the past, I have benefited from pure Mahasi noting in daily life.  My self-talk would cultivate feelings of relentlessness, continuity, ruthlessness, sacrificing focus on daily activities, plowing through the nanas, etc.  Basically, all about effort.

New, Daily-Life Practice Approach:

However, I am no longer trying to plow through the nanas, so such an attitude is actually counter-productive.  When I Mahasi note now, my mindset is quite the opposite: "continuous, low-level noting is all more cookies in the cookie bank, even past 4th path, so this is a practice that I will do for the rest of my life, on-and-off...  cultivating mindfulness, however I do it, is always a good idea, so forget about 4th path, just try to be mindful for the sake of being mindful."

New, Formal Practice Approach:

I also have realized, over the past couple weeks, that I require a new structure to my practice to replace the old, goal-orientation.  I think I am starting to find this new structure in Shinzen Young's "Do Nothing" meditation instructions.  The specific instructions are, whenever you become aware of the intention to control the attention, drop that intention immediately... if it rearises, drop it again.. if it continuously rearises and you are not able to drop it, then it is not fully in your control, thus it is not an intention.  He also talks about how the practice does not improve on the spot (unlike in Mahasi noting, where you can make continuous, real-time adjustments to improve technique within a sit).  Sittings improves slowly, over time, due to momentum gained from previous sits.  Another important point he makes is to not interfere with compassion, clarity & equanimity, as they arise.  I interpret this to mean that one should not 'drop intention' if it will interfere with a positive momentum that is occuring in the sit.  This is a very important subtlety.

General Attitude Towards Practice & Life:

Okay, so how does mindset and attitude go into this?  Well, for one, I need to rework my goal orientation.  I feel pressure to get 4th path because I know it will help clear out neurosis of mine which will help me enter the job market.  I am afraid of sitting too long on my degree (Jan, '15) without having any paid-job experience.  These are all, valid, interconnected goals. 

I need to realize that I am doing okay.  I make enough money as a bartender to sustain myself, pay my loans, etc.  Furthermore, I am about to move from central NJ to Seattle, WA on the 26th of this month (2 weeks).  I will be getting an apartment with my best friend and working with him on a day-tour boat (a job which is very fun).  My girlfriend, who is the love of my life, will be joining us in a couple months.  My life is moving forward, evolving, I am okay. 

This is not that bad of a situation.  I do not need to be freaking out.  Even if it takes awhile to get 4th path and get to the point of mental health that I desire, it will not be the end of the world.  I do not plan on going 5 years without getting a professional job.  It is not that dramatic of a danger.  Furthermore, it will be well worth it, in the end, to build myself up to the point of peak functioning, where I can truly be successful in my career, in starting a family, etc.  So, based on these thoughts, I will nix the short-term goal orientation.

Specific, New Attitude:


Now, what type of orientation should replace my current one, with regard to the 'do nothing' technique?

Here is some freestyled thinking: 'Do nothing' is a muscle that is developed gradually.  Shinzen calls it a circuit in consciousness which can drop effort.  The more I truly exercise that muscle, the better off I will be.  Mindfulness is a scale on the 'equalizer of experience' (as Kenneth says in the BATGAP interview).  The more I improve my mindfulness, the better off I will be, in general.  Based on this, I feel safe forgetting about 4th path specifically, and favoring a more general goal of improving insight/wisdom. 

Now, I like to envision myself as a meditation monster, an unstoppable terminator.  I will do whatever it takes to get enough 'do nothing' sits in to get this muscle as strong as possible.  I wish to become max-out my 'do nothing' capability in this lifetime.  I wish to get better at it than I ever thought humanly possible!

------------------------------------------------------------

I just wanted to share how I work with motivation, affect & mindset in my practice and make adjustments at times.  Perhaps this will be helpful to people.  Or, others may have reccomendations for me.

Comments are welcome emoticon
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:26 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:26 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah, I like your new approach a lot. I think it will be very helful to you going forward.

Even if it takes awhile to get 4th path and get to the point of mental health that I desire, it will not be the end of the world.

This is the only thing I would caution you about. I think you could be making as assumption or adopting a belief that might not be quite as true as you believe it to be. A full spectrum approach to your issues should not be dropped lightly, meaning adding or keeping other things in your quiver of arrows outside of someday achieveing 4th path.

Trying to be cautiously helpful.

BTW - I'll be in Seattle from just after you move there for about a week. Wanna meet up? PM or e-mail me if you do.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:35 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:35 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I should mention, in the context of what I write in my practice logs, that I have done years of psychotherapy and medication regimen.  I have had a positive experience with these.  I know myself very well and now what works and what doesn't work.  I am aware of my current level of functioning and have reached a certain 'peak' of psychological self-awareness for the time being.  That is why I am so focused on spiritual development.  So, in some sense, I already have a lot of those 'arrows in the quiver.'

And yeah, I would love to meet up in Seattle!  I'll pm you.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 5:07 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 5:04 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Fractal-Modelling Thoughts:

One
1st Rupa Jhana (thought+rapture+bliss+one-pointedness)
1st Path (or "on 1st path", meaning from pre-SE to SE): one cycle of insight complete
1st Vipassana Jhana (Nana's 1 through 3)
Immature stage/ Arising of sensations (out of void/source)/ Gaining momentum

Two
2nd Rupa Jhana (rapture+bliss+one-pointedness)
2nd Path (or "on 2nd path", meaning from post-SE up to 2nd path fruition): two cycles of insight complete
2nd Vipassana Jhana (Nana 4)
Early maturity stage/ Peak of sensations/ Peak of momentum

Three
3rd Rupa Jhana (bliss+one-pointedness)
3rd Path (or "on 3rd path", meaning from post-2nd path up to 3rd path 'moment'): as many cycles as are necessary for 3rd path 'moment'
3rd Vipassana Jhana (Nana's 5-10)
Middle maturity stage/ Passing of sensations/ Losing momentum

Four
4th Rupa Jhana (one-pointedness+equanimity)
4th Path (or "on 4th path, meaning from post-3rd path up to 4th path 'moment'): cycles are repaced by more refined maturation of insight
4th Vipassana Jhana (Nana 11 [through 16])
Peak maturity stage/ Where sensations meet void/source/ Momentum zero's out

*Any of the Four can be applied as a:
1) Sub-phase of a vipassana nana
2) Sub-phase of a samatha jhana
3) Sub-phase of a Path
4) Etc./Misc.

---------------------

Where I Am, With Regards To The Fractal Model:


When I was "on 3rd path", linear progress still made sense (Mahasi-noting to purposefully plow through the nanas).  Even though the completion of a 3rd insight cycle didn't promise 3rd path, it felt right to purposely aim to complete insight cycles.  I got 3rd path on April 12th.  The Review lasted over a month, till about May 15th.

I have been "on 4th path" for almost 2 months now.  At first, I thought the effortful completion of cycles still made sense.  Then I saw that as delusion.  Then, I thought there was some special type of perception or aspect of awareness that I needed to fully bring into consciousness.  Eventually, I also saw that the inherent, dualistic effort in this was delusion. 

Now, I feel that I have pinpointed what I need to do: sometimes note in daily life with explicit goal of being mindful for the sake of mindfulness only, other times do no meditation in daily life so that I can confront my agitation head on, and do formal sitting with Shinzen's "do-nothing" technique.

I want to make the point that there isn't "no goal", whatsoever, at this phase of practice; rather, its just that the goal is really subtle.  However, there is still some linearity present in that there are things I am not seeing/knowing with full maturity.  The knowing of these things needs to mature.

As far as I see it, 3rd path CAN be measured by insight cycles.  3.1 means 3rd path, cycle 1.  3.2 means 3rd path, cycle 2... etc.  4th path, however, CANNOT.  Progress "on" 4th path can only be measured by the subtle refinement of experience and the arising and maturation of new insight, independent from the number of cycles one goes through.

For me, this seems to be manifesting in the form of 'burning out' interest or desire in certain things.  As these layers of clinging are released, my baseline state seems to be changing. The overall arc is that my baseline state of 'knowing' reality will go from immature (4.1, thinking cycles still help), to early maturity (4.2, more just being in the moment/in touch with reality outside of progress), mid maturity (4.3, ??) and then, with peak maturity (4.4, ??), the 4th path 'moment.'

Edit: Obviously, 4.1 has 4 sub-sub-phases.  I think I may have completed all 4 of these.  Perhaps I am at 4.2.1.  It seems that each sub-sub-phase will take weeks or months.  And I still have 12 or more sub-sub-phases left, meaning that it could take me at least several more months!

P.s.- Some people will think I am foolish or naive for trying to map progress this neatly.  My bottom line is that this type of thought seems to be helpful for me.  I would not be induling in it if I did not have confidence in its ultimately, pragmatic purpose.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 5:28 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 5:28 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
More Thoughts on 4th Path Sub-Phases and Sub-Sub-Phases:

Up until now, I thought that a goal-orientation was not possible or skillful past a certain point on 4th path, and especially not after 4th path.  I realize now that I don't need the nanas or cycles in order to discover a valid goal-orientation.  Instead, I need to have the sensitivity and sophistication to detect where my cutting-edge is. 

In this case, 'cutting-edge' does not refer to a specific nana, cycle or anything numeric.  Perhaps the use of 'cutting-edge' is actually not cyclical at all, past 3rd path.  Instead, cutting-edge refers to a certain sweet-spot in meditation and walking around awareness, a certain combination of mental and spiritual factors that may be hard to hold together, but will inevitably lead in the direction of releasing latent clinging and exposing new areas to see and know. 

For me, right now, this would be the ability to drop the sense of drive and effort that I have become so accustomed to.  It can be replaced with a sense of the beginningless and endless nature of phenomenal reality, and the one-taste of the continuous, knowing of this, which can not be separated, or broken down (as subject and object are part and parcel). 

The more I can reach this state and remain in it, the faster it will become ingrained, mastered, matured.  This progress will arise spontaneously, in due time, when my mental-physical field are ready.  I can not 'rush' this progress any more than I could 'rush' the growing of a physical muscle.  However, I can diet and exercise with precision and efficiency.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/21/15 12:21 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/21/15 12:14 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Thoughts on communication through text, the meaning of words & concepts, outcomes, and individual right to opinion:

Do I have a right to post anything any thoughts I have on meditation whatsoever, as long as I make it clear that it is only my opinion or my interpretation that is being expressed (and as long as it is in line with the forum guidelines)?  I would think the answer is yes.  I believe I have a right to post critical or even negative opinions about certain aspects of traditions that I respect and wish to engage with.  However, I have noticed that I am beginning to feel pigeon-holed as I explore certain aspects of different traditions.

I believe that there is too much interest in finding the right words and meanings.  Different forums and groups have different vocabularies.  If you go on the wrong forum or speak in the wrong meditation group with alternative word choices, at best, people may just look at you funny and move on; at worst, they can be attacking.  Sometimes, they will attempt to convince you to change your views entirely.  It is very rare that someone is willing to question their own lexicon and conceptual paradigms and say "hmmm, maybe we are talking about the same thing... or maybe we are talking about different things, with equavalent merit... maybe this person's experience is legitamate, but also different from mine."  Why can't people question their own views on things?  Why do they have to seek out certainty?  Does it make them feel safe?  I am certainly guilty of this myself in certain areas of my life. 

I see my teacher on Thursday, and await his dharma diagnosis of me.  However, something happened to me on Saturday which changed the way I feel, in my body and mind, completely and totally.  I have not felt the same since and it has not let up.  My description of this would be something like "everything feels completely solid and real."  This description would not match the description: "everything is flickering, happening sponatenously, and inherently unreliable." 

However, my state seems to be the result of noticing the 3 characteristics in all that arises.  So what happened to me?  What if my teacher diagnoses me at 4th path?  Is the diagnosis wrong because I am not using the right words? 

I am annoyed.  I feel that people need to learn "BOTH/AND" instead of "EITHER/OR".

________________________________

Edit: I think the main point here in avoiding the bs is to focus on practical experimentation.  The problem is that if I then wish to communicate the contents of my experimentation, I need to use these symbols, called "words".  Words have all types of interpretations and emotionally charged meaning for people.

Having a practice log is part of useful experimentation, for me.  It helps to give me structure.  But now I am starting to feel like I need to avoid using certain sets of words.  I think I should use them anyway, even if it upsets people, because it works for me, and thats the ultimate, pragmatic truth.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/22/15 1:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/22/15 1:15 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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One range of experience I go through throughout the day:

1) agitation/obsessing/restless
2) investigating these emotions/questioning them. etc.
3) feelng successfully separated from these emotions & back in the moment
4) cultivating wonder at the sensuous nature of reality, outside of the influence of emotions
5) beginning to feel agitated again
6) successfully avoiding the agitation-loop & instead feeling a naturally appreciation and enjoyment of the moment without pressure to apply any technique
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:19 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 12:19 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 5116 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
So even if we could list all the attributes of "4th path" and bypass the language differences, each yogi would claim that only a certain combination is the real deal as that is their experience and anything beyond their experience is just that.

DW, I suspect the issue here is two-fold -- one, language can be used in different watys by different people. That can be generally overcome if the two people spend some time dicsussion the same issue at hand. Two, experience -- when folks are dogmatic about the nature of things they have generally not been relentless enough in their inquiry or they are speaking from a perspective that is unique to where they presently find themselves on the spectrum. This, I believe, is why these discussions get so complicated and people tend to disagree. Describing all the attributes of awakening is indeed complex because there are many, and what one sees depends on where one is on the spectrum. Everything has a spectrum - it's inherent in the nature of the thing, and the perspective from "this" part of the spectrum can be very different than the perspective from "that" part of the spectrum.

emoticon
Derek, modified 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 10:44 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/26/15 10:44 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah S:
it is the "knowing" that reduces stress.


That sounds spot on to me, Noah.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/22/15 11:56 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/22/15 11:56 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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On actualism being inherently different from spirituality:

I think I am realizing something about the prescence of 'effort' and the reality of development over time, with regards to how these things manifest in a meditaton practice.  Specifically, even if I my identity as a yogi and the conceptual underpinnings of various technques, so that I am only applying intention to change the attention, again and again, there will be the experience of getting better over time.  One way of describing the essence of this is that I am headed in a certain direction....

more to come later
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/27/15 11:24 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/27/15 11:24 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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7/27

-I'm just going to post the run-over thoughts from my practice journal here, so as to keep it as lean as possible.

Here are some different aspects of ENATMOBA (Enjoying aNd Appreciating This Moment Of Being Alive- credit to a helpful Yahoo AF participant for creating this acronym) I am realizing.  Good enjoyment is frequently not conscious.  When it is really deeply embodied, I will forget that Actualism exists as a method, and that AF exists as a goal.  I will just be totally into the moment, with some attentiveness keeping me present-oriented, and some of myself also really absorbed or embedded into whatevers going on.  It has both aspects. 

But the point is that it isn't intense, it isn't effortful, it doesn't contain proconceptions.  It isn't about 'checking my pulse every five seconds' (a paraphrased quote from Laurel on AN).  It is really getting lost in this wonder of life!  And, I have to say, regardless of the whole "180 degrees opposite" idea, 4th Path really helps with this!
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 3:14 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/1/15 5:28 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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8/1

The "good-mood-muscle" seems to have both breadth and depth in the complexity of its development, as well as strong ramifications for deepening real Insight (with a capital "I").  I am discovering a wide variety of ways to get into a wide variety of possible states, all of which would fall under the banner, 'good mood.'  I call the development and enhancement of this process a 'muscle', because there is active willpower involved in redirecting the attention (note that there is also passive surrender, which is also a movement of attention).

There are definitely some commonalities to the possible states that can be called good moods.  Notably, the powerful or effective ones are those where I feel most deeply patient, secure, and effortless.  However, patience and security can easily be tied in with various egoic processes (the 'social identity' and 'instinctual passions').  To counter this, the reason why I feel patient and secure must be linked to the pleasant nature of both my immediate physical environment (including my body) and the process through which I percieve it.  These things are nice, these things are calming, these things easily lead into a good mood.

When I am in this type of pleasant state, various subconscious selfing processes are either turned off, or running at an abnormally low power-level.  Eventually, however, they will begin to reassert themselves.  Selfish control of the body (desire for food, sex, physical motion), selfish control of the senses (craving entertainment and distraction), identification with relative time & space ("I" need to do something/make something happen), etc., will pop up. 

My goal is to 'love these things to death', as Shinzen would describe in his nurture positive protocol.

(edited multiple times, still more to come, most likely)


-Every time I fall into some seemingly irreversable negative pattern of mind (such as hours of obsessing and feeling hopeless), and then illogically break that pattern by returning to positivity, I am increasing courage and decreasing faith in that particular pattern.

-One of the most important initial steps I can take is to experience the social identity and instinctual passions without letting them bother me.  To me, this represents a radical decrease in attachment, in caring about what happens to me, in caring about outcomes, etc.  Both aspects or layers of the self (human and animal) are essentially linked to/centered around/operating around the notion of controlling outcomes.  If I release control of outcomes, or at least let myself of the hook of being totally responsible, I am able to remove some of the oomph or power or juice from the self-system.

-It seems that one way to characterize the different types of selfing processes is to link them to either perceptual or emotional cores.  This might correspond to head and heart as well.  What I have done so far feels like a primarily mental-psychological-perceptual transformation (although there is an intuitive component which fortifies any seeming weaknesses in not seeing certain ultimate aspects of awareness at all times).  While there is much work to still be done on this axis, there is also a whole other axis which requires development.

The emotional-heart based processes seem to be very linked with a deeper sense of identity, who I think and feel I am, and therefore, how I am likely to feel and act.  Whether or not various actions, their motivations, and their results, are seen as luminous, agencyless, centerless, etc., there is still some central 'juice' or intensity to the energy of the personality which is in action.  For me, the inherent stickiness of being guided by many unsconscious, baser instincts (admittedly filtered up through more sophisticated and complex layers) must be dealt with in some tranformative way, regardless of my current level of nondual witnessing of these baser, instinctual activities.  

-I realize that I am struggling with having a less obvious and linear map now.  Here are two ways I can think about my current practice to help supplement this:

1) Shallow vs Deep
          Shallow=I am enjoying and appreciating with part of my mind/surface layer only, and simply powering through any deeper, detectable negativity... part or all of the positivity in this case might be scripted or fabricated (and may be 'perceptual'/'meditative in nature)
          Deep=All of me is on board with enjoying and appreciating this moment (there is the pereceptual enjoyment, but also a total engagement with whatever activity is at hand [including silence, doing nothing, etc] with all facets of my personality)

2) Sudden vs Gradual
          Sudden=Frequently associated with a feeling that a new path/shift/freedom/etc. is right around the corner/on the brink... Experiencing some aspect of reality without filters in an overpowering, but temporary way
          Gradual=Being able to enter a partial state a little bit more easily ever day... asssociated with the slow-going, treading-water, all-more-coins-in-the-piggy-bank mentality

edit:insert

3) Conscious vs Unconscious 
          This distinction is around the fact that I can feel good for large swathes of time, without being aware of it, only to realize later that I have been successful (when some negativity interrupts me)... Also, there is also the occassional, but important quality of positivity in which unonscious positivity (which can be more felt in, or remembered by, the body) is "better" than conscious positivity.

4) Exploring inner awareness vs exploring outer physicality
          To me, this seems to be the ultimate difference between Actualism and Buddhism (once again, just playing with ideas here, in my practice log).  In Buddhism, there is this ultimate finality to the experience of the nondual nature of awareness, which is stripped of all possible attributes right up to the point of cesssation itself.  This is, essentially, an internally-oriented experience.  The practitioner is so deeply, internally, withdrawn that they withdraw from the mind itself.  The internal aspect of the universe takes complete control of the mind.
          In Actualism, there is the physical universe taking control of the mind, which is then simply experienced as a brain-on-a-stick 'doing' apperception.  Accounts of apperceptive awareness are usually heavily based on the external world.  Eventually, the practitioner is so deeply taken over that all individualized sensory processing dissapears into the physical functioning of the environment.
          I basically see these as two, equivalent options, in terms of the final outcome of eliminating various selfing processes.  Both use some type of trans-individual state to serve as a platform for the bringing of subconscious machinery into the conscious.  In terms of Ken Wilber's AQAL model, perhaps there is the tapping into the lower-left (interior collective) quadrant, in the case of rigpa (?), and the lower-right (exterior collective) quadrant, in the case of apperception.
          Unfiltered experience is beneficial, and necessary, for complete realization.  However, the exact direction/aspect one explores (once they are actually capable of going in differing directions) may effect the temporary outcome (even if 'complete realization' as an end-point will look the same in everyone, there are different mid-points).  For this reason, I am choosing to pursue the purely physical aspect of experience, at this junction point (technical 4th), with the hopes that it will lead to quicker emotional healing as experienced in the body.

-Good feeling and mood associated with the thought "I don't need to do anything" seems to get to the heart of the matter, which is that reality-without-filters is already happening, and the more I can access it, the more benefit I will gain in line with my contemplative goals.  In my current estimation, this is the 'pristine actual world', and therefore, any positivity associated with the 'real word' (i.e. human concepts and labels that help us name and understand various dailly-life situations) will be of lesser value in the good-mood heirarchy.  So, while my current interpretation of Actualist practice (which is probably a misinterpretation, but I am fine with that) is that it is not meditative-perceptual in nature, there is still that ingredient of momentary mindFULLness (surrender to this now without cultural orientation) to the most potent ENATMOBA.

In short, what goes into the mood influences what comes out of it, even if different introductory factors seem  to produce the same thing at the time.
Derek, modified 8 Years ago at 8/1/15 6:52 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah S:
8/1

The "good-mood-muscle" seems to have both breadth and depth in the complexity of its development, as well as strong ramifications for deepening real Insight (with a capital "I").  I am discovering a wide variety of ways to get into a wide variety of possible states, all of which would fall under the banner, 'good mood.'  I call the development and enhancement of this process a 'muscle', because there is active willpower involved in redirecting the attention (note that there is also passive surrender, which is also a movement of attention).



You might enjoy Tara Springett's Spiritual Joy. It's a stripped-down version of this practice, derived from Tibetan Dzogchen/Mahamudra.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 1:08 AM
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Thanks Derek, I looked her up, and might order her book.  Watching a couple videos of hers now.  If I do order it, I'll definitely report any impacts on practice, etc.  
Derek, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 4:40 AM
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I tried it out. After a couple of weeks, I was in a state of bliss. It does bring up some dark moods when you come down from the bliss, though.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 11:44 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Oh yeah, I want to avoid that.  I'm hoping I can do both things at once, as in, enhancing good feelings while facing bad feelings head on and integrating (?) them, or something like that.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/15/15 5:10 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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On Wording-

I sort of hate the idea that it is a good practice to put a lot of stock in the meaning and usage of words.  For instance, one outcome of this line of thinking is that we can assume someone is really 'getting it' along a given line of mind-hack development if they start talking like a master of that particular tradition.  For instance, "I have hands, but they are moving themselves, everything is moving itself" or, "everything is so fun and enjoyable!  I have totally dismantled any and all sense of sensibility in the negative affective engagement towards a situation", etc.  Meanwhile, if you use the wrong language, you aren't getting it (even though you very well may be).  If you use the right language, but too much of it, you are 'just obsessing' not really 'letting go' enough, just 'over thinking' it, etc.  I hate this.  Am I over thinking it, or is it just that my brain is accurately describing reality at a faster rate than your brain?  

And if it is the latter, then what do you have to say about that!?  Lol, isn't it funny how much anger I have about this?

But yeah, I really do think I have a point.  Stop honing in on micro-cases of semantics, people!  The only way to get a sense of someone through text-only communication is to take a macro-view, an average of instances of their usage of language over a period of weeks or months to see how they have changed.  Or, even better, video chat or meet with them in-person every so often to see how they have changed.  What is their vibe?

Of course, people don't like this because it is a more nuanced and ambiguous approach.  You can't just automatically make broad-sweeping generalizations or easily shoe-horn someone else into your pre-profiled classification system.  You have to pause, let them speak, let them be a fully functioning, 3d living being.  That is the hardest way to communicate of all.  People spend their entire lives trying to master it.

Cheers.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/15/15 7:43 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Stop ruining the fun!

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/19/15 1:13 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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A Misconception of actualism-

I have recently realized a misconception I had about the state of actual freedom.  I had assumed there was something robotic, constricting or disassociated about it.  I realize now that an actual freedom is like the greatest possible feeling or mood one could have... times ten.  Meaning, it is out of the range of our imagination and our remembered affective experience (which is all of life [including jhanas and other raptures], other than pce's).

When I get into excellence experiences (which would be a highly felicitous state in which the self is almost completely gone), such as the one I was in today for a couple minutes, I felt a positivity which isn't necessarily connected to any opposites of negativity.  However, if I was forced to try and juxtapose these EE's with normal, affective states, I would probably use words like looser, lighter, freer, relieved, untethered, etc.  This language isn't perfect, but the point I'm trying to make is that actualism is a path of untethering the inner experience into one of unlimited boundaries, rather than becoming a disassociated robot.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/19/15 7:54 AM
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 I realize now that an actual freedom is like the greatest possible feeling or mood one could have... times ten.  Meaning, it is out of the range of our imagination and our remembered affective experience (which is all of life [including jhanas and other raptures], other than pce's).

So... its like good drugs!


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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/19/15 10:15 AM
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Well.... just to take your jesting too seriously, I will say that I have done good amounts and qualities of many of the worlds 'good drugs' and can say with certainty that my animal-instinctual identity remained quite in tact in even my most giggly-warm-goofy-magestic-glowing trips.  So it would be like good drugs with no subtle underlying paranoia, no psychodynamics, no potential for a low after a high, no slight chance of fight-or-flight, etc.  Most of us have rarely ever experienced such a state, I would posit.  
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/19/15 11:41 AM
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Most of us have rarely ever experienced such a state, I would posit.  

Really???
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/20/15 1:51 AM
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Haha I guess google defines 'posit' as "assumes as a fact."  Maybe thats a bit strong.  My personal experience tells me that the basic energy of the hardest, clearest, most equanimous jhanas I have gotten into, shares the same flavor as the basic energy of various other affective experiences.  That is, there is still a core battery of Noah running in the background.  Or maybe its not 'Noah', but the human experience/the animal brain, in general (the layer that we all share).  My second-hand observations of people I have known personally who have spent decades in meditation tell me that these people still have lots of problems (which I assume come from that instinctual core which they have not been able to shirk).  Other observations (3rd hand?) of all gurus ever tell me that high levels of insight don't stop people from all types of sadistic abuse.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So I think I'm assuming that if these people were getting into states such as the one I outlined above, they would try to stay in it and stop these darn tendencies for good!  Its hard to phrase these thoughts without it sounding like an attack on a particular group/system/philosophy/person.  Thats not what I'm trying to do here.  But yeah, these are the things that make sense to me, right now. 
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/20/15 7:23 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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My experience has been that every new state I encounter seems special, unique, and amazing and I think therefore that I am somehow special, too, and have this amazing capability to attain this state. That sense lasts for a time and then things go back to "just is" until the next amazing experience shows up. I'm just saying that I would be wary of claiming any sort of specialness. I doubt we are inventing anything truly new.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/20/15 11:39 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I definitely agree.  I was just using inductive reasoning to reach a final idea.  I can't even remember ever having a true PCE so I certainly can't personally claim anything special or new (and even if I do get a PCE, I have no way of knowing how new or old it is relative to others).  If I do reach some new plateau of relief from suffering, I will definitely write about it: not as a way of comparing myself with others, but as a way of comparing my new state with previous, lesser versions of myself.  

Just another thought, which is that the thing that excites me (on a conceptual level, not trying to declare reality here) about actualism being "new" is that it makes sense that we have just recently acquired the long life-spans, advances in medicine and technology, etc.(as a species) to finally be able to let go of the surivival mechanisms enough to fully enjoy ourselves all the time (through the highs and lows), and eventually get rid of the human condition.  So I guess my idea is that this could be new because it might only have been possible in the past century or so.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/20/15 12:55 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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On comparing actualist techniques/sub-aspects to existent spiritual technologies:

These days I'll find myself doing a technique and think "I can see how someone could read a description of this activity and say 'Hey!  Thats just mindfulness.' or 'thats just tantric emotional work' or 'I did that in psychotherapy'. "  I have realized that the important point is that all the dots have to be connected.  Yes, some descriptions of the PCE sound like some aspects of choiceless awareness, at least a little bit.  And yes, other, existent traditions do have similar approaches to the investigation of instinctual passions and/or the dismantling of the social identity.  But no other tradition has each one of these things, in this exact order, to lead to this specific result.  So I think that might be part of some of the confusion and debate between actualists and Buddhists/spiritual-seekers.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/20/15 5:57 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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On Non-Philosophy and Non-Buddhism:

The non-Buddhism we're discussing in recent threads comes from non-philosophy.  I am finding the wikipedia on non-philosophy to be fascinating.  It basically says that in order to 'do' philosophy in the first place, one must start with an artificial split of the world into different categories in order to grasp hold of it for initial philosophical inquiry.  However. these artificial splits don't actually exist in the world as it is, so any system of philosophy is inherently a circular argument, reaching its own conclusions by fulfilling its initial expectatons in the first place (logic/wording ?).

So Buddhism could be analyzed from the viewpoint of non-philosophy and it could be seen that the view of the 'dharma' as the 'way things actually are', is based on an initial assumption(s) that the way things actually are can be categorized, i.e. nirvana-samsara.  Interestingly, one could definitely take this viewpoint to pick apart actualism.

The non-buddhists do claim, on thenonbuddhist.com webiste, that there is a utility to their approach.  They say that non-buddhism reveals buddhist-type teachings (removed from the original context), that literally anyone can use in their daily life.  I think this is great, but I wonder how far they would take that claim.  To me, this is where the true value of a way of thinking and understanding is determined.  Are the leaders of non-buddhism happy in their personal lives?  Are they divorced?  Are they depressed?  Are they realizing their maximal potential and feeling good when they go to sleep at night?  Internet personas tell very little.  The true litmus is how the mind and life of a person is actually changing behind closed doors.  

My dream is that all people expounding ways of thinking and understanding the world and becoming happier would no longer keep private personas.  I think the real contest is in who has the best relationship with immediate family members, who has the most consistent behavior across time, etc.  I wonder if teachers of ways-to-happiness actually deserve personal privacy in the same way.  After all, aren't so many of them corrupt?
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/21/15 8:06 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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My dream is that all people expounding ways of thinking and understanding the world and becoming happier would no longer keep private personas.  I think the real contest is in who has the best relationship with immediate family members, who has the most consistent behavior across time, etc.  I wonder if teachers of ways-to-happiness actually deserve personal privacy in the same way.  After all, aren't so many of them corrupt?

Back in the world we live in, this criteria would cause every political ideology, religion and spiritual practice ever invented to be deemed a failure, let alone a violation of the 4th Amendment.

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/21/15 8:41 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Back in the world we live in, this criteria would cause every political ideology, religion and spiritual practice ever invented to be deemed a failure, let alone a violation of the 4th Amendment.

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Very true.

But aside from the legality issue (this is my sandbox, after all, where there temporarily are are no laws for the discussion of concepts), I do think it would help separate the wheat from the chaff.  Such disclosures of personal ups and downs could be done in the same spirit of honesty that Daniel writes his teacher autobiographical summary in, i.e. "as a result of the elimination of suffering due to fundamental perceptual duality, I have become a more easygoing person, improving my relationships with my children and saving my marriage.  I still lose my temper in relation to particular triggers, but am continuously working at incorporating the realization of emptiness into these areas."  Or, "since becoming actually free of the human condition, I no longer experience emotions at all, only the empty shells of their ancestors.  While these fossils do, at times, appear to be taken as irritation, anyone who spends a large amount of time with me finds me to be a pleasant and kind person to be around.  Also since becoming actual free, I have severed ties with my previous romantic relationship, having seen it for what it truly was, but have improved my parenting ability a huge amount."

I can do one myself: "having reached technical 4th path under my vipassana teacher, I have found my symptoms of bipolar disorder to be reduced by about 40%.  This has worked much better than either psychotherapy or medications, which only worked to reduce my symptoms by about 15-20%, despite years of diligent effort in those areas.  While my internal experience has vastly improved, close friends and family do not see much of a difference with my day-to-day external manner, other than at the most challenging times, when I am now less likely to have an agitated or avoidant reaction than I used to."

Cultures can change.  When they do, people aren't being forced to change their conduct (which would be illegal, as you say).  At best, they begin to want to change their modes of communication by seeing the logic of a new way.  
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/21/15 9:04 AM
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Here's what I say to that, that being all such claims of "advancement" and such -- wait a while, and we'll see if it lasts.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/21/15 9:10 AM
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Sounds good to me.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/22/15 12:47 AM
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Deep-sea Diving: Beliefs VS Facts

The most important aspect of actualism is figuring out how to truly enjoy and appreciate in this moment.

The second most important thing is following common sense, and replacing beliefs (feeling-backed thoughts) with factual observations.  Here is some common sense that is emerging for me:

          1) fact: self efficacy- my body and mind are very capable of completing most tasks in life
              belief: I am not capable of completing many tasks.  I am not capable of pushing myself past initial stress.  My stress is a special resistance called 'bipolar disorder' that gives me an excuse to quit.
          2) fact: necessity- my body and mind MUST complete a variety of tasks in order to survive.  No one else CAN do some of these things for me.  No one else MUST do any of these things for me.
              belief: Given the proper excuse (high enough levels of stress to be labelled a pathology), some other member of society (close friend or family member) will be forced to step in and complete a task for me.  Society is not only supposed to bend to my needs, but is forced to bend to my needs.  This is just the way things work.
          3) fact: libido- I have a huge amount of libido.  Whether or not this libido is satisfied, I am completely capable of functioning and completing tasks.
              belief: If my libido is not satisfied, I will not be able to function.  "My" "bipolar" will kick in and I will not only be rightfully excused from working, but I will also not be physically capable of working.
          4) fact: hunger- I have a very fast metabolism, a stretched out stomach, and a highly ingrained habit of over-eating due stress.  Whether or not I overeat enough to remove my stress, I am still completely capable of functioning.  It is possible for this mind and body to function through stress.
              belief: If I do not make my stress go away by eating a lot, I will be helpless and disabled.  Etc., etc.
          5) fact: the human condition- Everyone has problems.  Everyone is imperfect and everyone's life is imperfect.  Everyone has strengths and weaknesses.  Most people have weaknesses that are big enough to be labelled a disability if looked at closely.  There is nothing 'wrong' with me.  I am not 'bad.'  These self-labels are responsible for most of the stress that I feell.  There is no reliable, valid and objective way to measure one person's character and actions against those of others.  Such a method simply does not exist and never could exist.  This implies that no one is 'good' and no one is 'bad.'  A relatively more accurate way of judgement is to assign each human a value point of '1' (from the classic therapy book "Feeling Good", btw).
              belief: While it is true that everyone has problems, some have more than others.  I am part of that negatively-rated group.  It is possible to rate people based on their character and actions, relative to their circumstances, by taking an average sample of the population.  I am able to do this, with reasonable accuracy, using my imagination (lol).  I know, deep in my heart, that there is something more wrong with me than with everyone else, because I have an identifiable disability and most people do not.


I have a disability, which is a condition that limits my ability to do things.  It is specifically not an incapacity, which woud be a complete inability to do things.  Unfortunately (and it breaks my heart to admit this right now), my disability is also a fact.  It has not gone away, despite diligent effort in many disciplines, over a period of almost a decade.  My disability is actual; it has roots in my brain and deep in the structure of my mind.

That being said, my disability gets better or worse, depending on how faith I put into it.  In this way, my disability is a belief (an emotion backed thought).  The belief side of it gets either stronger, with more negative confidence, or weaker, with more positive confidence.  This is simply the mechanics of how it works.  For now, I can not change that.  It truly is not in my power.  All I can do is work with it, like learning to play a musical instrument.

This makes me sad.  It makes me want to scream.  It feels so powerless.  I have always searched for a 100% answer, for a certainty.  But this is the only certainty: a clear picture of the uncertain nature of the human mechanism.  The human software is imperfect (as is some of the hardware).  Just like everyone else, I have imperfect human software, that I must work with, for the time being (until actual freedom).
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/23/15 9:38 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Deep-sea Diving: The Libido

I'm having these incredible insights into the libido in general, the orgasm specifically, and how these things relate to social-identity dating modes, as well as deeper human-species instincts, and animal instincts.  Specifically, I have started to feel, in my body, how sexual fantasy is not linked to sexual reality.  Times when I have 'succeeded' in dating scenarios by having sex are always different than the expectations beforehand, and the memories after.  I think my mind purposely does this; it creates a fantasy of how sex is and how it makes me feel.  So, even though real experiences carry specific, somewhat disappointing and overwhelmingly straight-forward qualities, my mind automatically forgets the feeling-tone of these experiences and replaces them with simplistic, pared-down, perfectionistic psuedo-memories.

Why would it do this?  Because that allows the carrot-stick structure to remain in place.  As long as I believe (deep in my heart) that the path to happiness lies in 'getting laid', "I", as an identity, remain safely in place as the king of the court.  The truth is that nothing is the path to happiness.  No experience, when had, will sustain any sense of affective positivity.  Things always change, causing disappointment.

Back to sex: this embodied realization relates to seeing the futility of auto-eroticism.  There is no point in seeking this release.  By creating fantastical scenarios where high expectations are met, the human software is continuously reinforced.  That is, I continuously remind myself that procreation, and the perpetuation of my genes, down the family line, is the highest possible pleasure I can have.  It is also linked to the most possible relaxation: letting myself "off the hook" because I have succeeded in my goal.  At these times I feel such huge confidence in myself.  It is simply a very powerful drug.

I sort of remember the roots of these feelings in childhood experience (although the real roots are coded into the brain before birth).  There was the sense of disappointment in my father, and the seeking of some certainty through the symbols of close female family members.  This isn't going in any wierd direction, of course.  Everyone has these messages delivered at an early age.  Being able to unearth them is key to becoming free from them.

The basic message is to stop believing in these feelings, in the pursuit of euphoria, of romantic love and sexual conquest.  They really are natural selection personified/in-action, and nothing more.  The best way is found as a result of these insights: the pursuit of benignity and harmlessness through true and thorough satisfaction with each moment of being alive.  Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die.  This is how you die, through deep examination.

I would challenge others on this board to explore these themes and truly question themselves at a level deeper than the purely-perceptual selfing-formations attacked by vipassana.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 9/20/15 3:27 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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"Sterility"

I have uncovered something I have been subtly assuming about actualism as well as the results of spiritual methods: that somehow, they result in there being 'less' of you; less internal content; less external activity; more quiet; more passive; more nothingness.  The most condensed symbol of this can be found in the pictures of legendary meditation masters sitting in full lotus, looking like they have been doing that, all day, every day, since the day they got enlightened.  But even with actualism, I was assuming that enjoying and appreciating would take the form of being unconditionally and unilaterally in some type of one-dimensional pleasure at all times.

But, the thing is, there are all sorts of types of pleasure and enjoyment and appreciation.  There are also lots of different things to be enjoyed.  Most of these things involve moving the body, and/or flexing the mind in some way.  Life involves movement.  This is something I have resented for a long time, wishing things would just stay the same, be safe, be sterile.  

((I wish I could be passive and not have to do anything and that no one could make me do anything))

That is one of my most core-most feeling-backed thoughts, right there.  

So I've been misrepresenting my goal, to myself.  Actual freedom must, by its nature, be vibrant, bubbly, bouncy, full of life, full of engagement.  All this means is that everyone is always doing something.  It doesn't mean that an actually free person will have ten hobbies, but just that activity will occur, and when it does, there will be movement of the physical body as well as actions of the intelligence.  

Human life is this movement.  Everything is moving.  The body is performing all sorts of processes, all the time.  The mind is constantly maintaining itself, making adjustments, creating wounds and barriers, as well as new strengths.  The brain is firing faster than a 4-dimensional strobe light, linking these two entities.  Although there is no overall self here, there is certainly an affective entity, which is constantly being created by a multitude of impressions upon the brain, which then charge the nervous system, in turn effecting all the other systems.  So the body has memorized what it feels like to have an entity inhabiting it.  And part of the actualism method is to feel *felicitious*, which is a much lighter load on the physical body, and to start to reverse that process of inhabitation a little bit.

But, I digress; the point is that I am afraid of moving, working, engaging, being responsible, meeting pressure, meeting demands.  I falsely link all these things together in a chain of negative association.  Moving and working and life are not a bad thing, they are a wonderful thing.  They are meant to be cherished.  And, when they are seen for what they ACTUALLY are, one can engage with life through an intelligence that has been freed from the clinging of fight-or-flight, and a body 100X lighter and fitter as a result of being freed from stress.  

So, in conclusion, fuck that image of Mahasi Sayadaw looking like he could sit there for a one thousand years.  Fuck that fantasy I have that getting actual freedom will allow me to become a vegetable.  The ultimate point is not a resting point; the ultimate point is dynamic: a dynamic engagement within the stillness, purity, and infinitude of the world as-it-is.  

p.s.- I realize that altruism and helping others has to be incorporated here.  I always sound so narcissistic and self-absorbed.  The thing is, that in order to get from where I am (point A=super selfish in outlook and behavior) to where I want to be (point B=engaging with charity and service, paying more attention to the people in my life, and engaging more with the world in general), I must move and interact, and flow forward.  The best way to do this is just to get started.  I do know that the process is already going.  Good things have already happened, and will continue to happen.

______________________________

Note: this essay will be subject to further editing.
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 9/20/15 4:19 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 9/20/15 4:19 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Good stuff, I can relate to this a lot.  The main point is that both negative and positive emotional reactions are "not actual" - it's the prevaling opinion about what's happening that causes problems, not the current state of life.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 9/20/15 4:30 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Not Tao:
Good stuff, I can relate to this a lot.  The main point is that both negative and positive emotional reactions are "not actual" - it's the prevaling opinion about what's happening that causes problems, not the current state of life.

Yes!  And this frees up energy to do lots of activities.  Fear is the mind killer.  But so is love.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 10/1/15 7:10 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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various, possible, actualist solutions:

I feel like actualism, as a set of instructions pertaining to what to do with one's attention, offers differing solutions for people in different situations.  However, all of these solutions have the central vein of having fun and being smart.  If one is a parent, stop seeing your children through the lens of a parent, and just see them as humans.  Begin to enjoy their personalities and quirks as a game.  Help them deal with their emotions intelligently while you also deal with your own.  Lead by example.

If one is a young adult, do the things it takes to reach a stable platform of functioning while also avoiding idealized outcomes and fantasies.  Act with efficiency.  Reduce drama.  Increase fun.  See through self image issues.

If one has a severe physical disease or disability, realize that there is only so much one can do about it.  Do those things.  Beyond that, choose to feel happy regardless, realizing that one's inner condition is the human condition (shared by all people) and not linked to the specific, physical condition.  A general problem has a broadly applicable solution.  This is a good thing, because it means that feeling good is possible regardless.  Dissect the emotions from the physical situation.  Examine the emotions, not the facts.  

A similar strategy could be applied by those in poverty.  That, plus the most efficient action plan to increase financial and other resources, stripped away of all emotion, beliefs, and cultural associations.  Act with efficeincy and without emotion.  Choose to enjoy the process of this effecient action, as well as all other moments.  Do not base happiness on a progression towards a better future.  Base happiness consistently on the now, while acting for the better.

It is very interesting for me to see how actualist strategies could be applied in all situations.  These are just some ideas.  The thing I like about them is that they integrate both the improvement of the internal state while simultaneously adjusting controllable, external conditions.  Doing both at once can help avoid repression of emotions or the movement into altered states of consciousness.  None of these approaches are 'easy.'  All require the practitioner to be very kind to themselves.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 2:58 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 2:55 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Metta & Self-Improvement Experiment:

Background:
          The dramatic amount of change I have been going through in my life, externally, has naturally led to an internal questioning and shifting of values, which is still going on.  I started with getting technical 4th, right before moving to a new city.  I then went with my original plan of doing the actualism method after that, which led me to discover a newfound capability to act with discipline in spite of negative emotions.
          Actualist practice also caused me to question my goals, and seek to discover what I would be doing for fun, in life, if there were no instinctual passions or social identity factors motivating me.  I discovered that I not only need to evolve my actions in the world, but also yearn to do this, after many years of feeling very inhibited.  Now I am realizing that this goal is not aligned with actualist practice, and also that forcing oneself to evolve, every day, and act with discipline, HURTS.  But instead of trying to either suppress or 'attend to', these emotions, I figured I should give metta a fair chance...
          So the experiment is this:  Every day, act with discipline, maintaining and expanding on healthy habits.  Seek a greater balance and integration between career, social life, sexuality, creativity, hobbies, etc.  While doing these things externally, frequently turn inwards towards metta.
          Regardless of any ontological truth or falsehood, taking a Buddhist conceptual framework here seems to be functional and internally logical.  A large part of my current understanding of Buddhism comes from reading a decent amount of Than-Geoff's work from dhammatalks.org.  These aspects include the necessary truth of rebirth, karma, and merit (for Buddhist practice to make sense), the examination of wholesome and unwholesome mindstates, the accumulation of merit through generosity, and, his general explanation of the 4 immeasurables.

Day 1 (10/29):
          I felt pretty vulnerable and sensitive.  Yesterday went to EMDR therapy and felt my heart chakra open, so that might be a part of it.  I have also been going out a lot and working on dating skills, which is a pretty raw and stressful activity since it involves a lot of rejections.  I decided to start sending myself metta after feeling inspired by reading some Than-Geoff.  I like that how straight-forward and pure his approach is.  Karma and merit are real, so you better start using them to your advantage, that kind of thing.  
          I immediately felt better after thinking "kindness is free, and I can practice it as much as I want, and it will always help me as well as others."  This thought just felt like a weight off my chest after trying to be an insensitive hard-ass for many nights in a row.  
          I notice the mind still returning to self critical patterns, but metta does not seem to be at odds with these mental habits.  It is something that is freely given, without expectation.  So I'm just being nice to myself, even if those other parts within continue to be mean.  No expectations, that seems to be key.
          I watched a video from a self-help guru who was talking about congruence with one's goals, and marinated in thoughts of balancing all the different facets of my life.  I then forced myself to get up and shower, even though I typically would wait till the next day.  While forcing myself, I sent myself friendliness/gladness energy.  Hopefully, little baby steps will begin to snowball.
          
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bernd the broter, modified 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 3:19 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 3:19 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Metta & Self-Improvement Experiment:
          I notice the mind still returning to self critical patterns, but metta does not seem to be at odds with these mental habits.  It is something that is freely given, without expectation.  So I'm just being nice to myself, even if those other parts within continue to be mean.  No expectations, that seems to be key.         
Are those parts really mean, in the sense of having ill-will towards you?

If you actually examine these parts (e.g. by treating them as actual distinct living processes, inviting them into your body, giving them space etc.) can you feel some compassion-aspect in them? Is that a real experience for you? (as opposed to a theoretical understanding)
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 7:06 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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bernd:

Are those parts really mean, in the sense of having ill-will towards you?

If you actually examine these parts (e.g. by treating them as actual distinct living processes, inviting them into your body, giving them space etc.) can you feel some compassion-aspect in them? Is that a real experience for you? (as opposed to a theoretical understanding)


I don't know exactly wheter this is a real experience, or a theoretical understanding, but I have this sense that grew in me, through emdr therapy, that these parts are basically coming from just one source, which is a really frustrated, childhood version of myself.  And when I invite it into my body, it basically just wants to be heard, at first to scream, and then to cry, and I can identify these emotions through specific bodily feelings, i.e. pangs in the chest, and such.  So I guess it doesn't have ill-will towards me.  I actually think it comes from a period of my life where my positive intentions towards family members were interrupted by the difficulties of their own individual personalities.  In that sense it would come from good will.
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bernd the broter, modified 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 1:54 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 10/30/15 1:54 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:

I don't know exactly wheter this is a real experience, or a theoretical understanding, but I have this sense that grew in me, through emdr therapy, that these parts are basically coming from just one source, which is a really frustrated, childhood version of myself.  And when I invite it into my body, it basically just wants to be heard, at first to scream, and then to cry, and I can identify these emotions through specific bodily feelings, i.e. pangs in the chest, and such.  So I guess it doesn't have ill-will towards me.  I actually think it comes from a period of my life where my positive intentions towards family members were interrupted by the difficulties of their own individual personalities.  In that sense it would come from good will.
Here's a trick which I played around with: ask that part, what name (or description, such as "destroyer of evil kitchen utensils") it wants. If you get an answer, (say X), you can use the phrase "May X be happy". Credit for that idea goes to Jay Earley's IFS-book.
For me this seemed to have an effect sometimes.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/4/15 2:53 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/3/15 1:07 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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POEMS

I'm going to write poetry about my actualism practice here whenever I feel the impulse to do so.  I'll just let this thread become really longing so I don't spam the recent posts section each time I add an unedited poem.

Free association, free from punctuation
11.2.15

perfection has no pressure

on some mystical plane, after 1000 years of training the mind, will I still feel grumpy at cleaning my room?
after the unbinding, will I still feel horny, will I still get restless, but simply not be attached?
will "I"?
"I"?
?

"I"

in the days that follow freedom, are there delineations
or is it one day 
if there is perfection, can it be aware of itself
can it be bound or unbound

only "I" can be bound or unbound

no one wants to die
thats why "I" has survived on this rock floating through the stars
"I" is the biggest hoax of them all

in my life, the push to succeed has dominated
the willingness to be average is the middle way 
to take a little and give a little 
to grow fat and horny and enjoy and appreciate
to play guitar and sail and have sex
to watch netflix and forgive myself until I am ready to disappear
to uncover what lies beneath all the psychic calluses of personality
to look beyond the connection-to-something-greater, and directly into the pit of the soul
to stare directly into the eyes of animal ancestors, and see how "being" has evolved

into "I"

to uncover that seemingly tragic truth
that the physical body was all there ever was, all along
the dreamer who wakes up from the dream, just another way of natural selection

to change human nature
is to end it

-----------------------

11.3.15

Daily I wind and unwind, searching for the outside of this coil
Free from expectation is a myth
Trapped within too extreme a description
Have things gotten better, or have they simply gotten different
How to define an actuality, in human terms- impossible task

I don't sleep and some days I get fat
Other days I have the discipline of samurai and feel Hercule's mighty fuel
Sometimes I channel the famous cassanova, and others the Great Depression:
a system so fucked and muddled, only time can heal it
and just like nation's, my inner economy functions better when I am at war-- singularly directed at hidden enemies
phantoms of affect, shadows of this psychic web, fugazi's of the great beingness

This parasite on earth
Is a stubborn one.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 1:16 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 12:51 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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11.24


Aspect Being ExaminedSpiritualismActualism
Sample size of success storiesPro: large sample sizeCon: small sample size
Intuitive fitCon: definitely doesn’t feel right to seek more path shiftsPro: feels like intuitively correct fit at this time
Logical fitPro: is logical right fit, based on specific conditions (i.e. total devotion to meditation)Con: doesn’t necessarily fit my overall situation, “on paper”
Degree of integration of solution/improvements to lifeCon: I won’t know how conventional areas of my life have been positively affected until after each path shiftPro: integrates each area of my life under one effort/method, addresses all problems at once
Conceptual paradigmCon: I disagree with the conceptual paradigm of spiritualism and feel that even the highest levels of awakening are inherently disassociating from reality as it is “normally” experiencedPro: I agree with the conceptual paradigm of actualism (what it says the answer is, what it says about the other schools of thought, etc.)
Final outcome resultsCon: intermediate outcomes only promise change to internal experience, not external motivations and actionsPro: outcome promises immediate change to motivations and behaviors
Familiarity with processPro: more familiarity with process because I am farther along in process… more clear ‘plan of attack’ in terms of effort and time involvedCon: less experience with process, very difficult to estimate amount of time/effort involved to reach certain milestones


actualism and af vs spiritualism and the real 4th path

I have recently come into contact with a contemplative friend's model of development that explained a lot about where I am on the insight axis and how that may or may not relate to my actualism practice.  I'm not willing to discuss the who and what of this map, but needless to say, I have a much closer idea of what exactly happened to my mind on the events that I have mapped to be 3rd and 4th path.  While these were major openings having to do with the widening of the automatic processing of certain categories of experience, I do believe that if I kept doing insight practice I could make a huge amount of further progress.   

My whole point for contemplative training is to be able to live a stable and well-rounded life, on autopilot, and relatively stress free.  The actualism method, and its outcome, are distinctly different from the process of spiritual awakening, and its outcome.  However, they are both viable options to reach my goal.  That being said, I can see pro's and con's for both paths.

The con of actualism is that there is a relatively small sample size of actually free people, especially compared to the amount of people who have reached some stage of enlightenment.  The pro of actualism is that it intuitively feels like the right fit for me, and that one starts seeing immediate, positive results from it.  Another pro of actualism for me, right now, is that feels like it integrates each area of my life that needs improvement under one banner: "sensibility."  Also, in terms of the conceptual paradigms of each system, I am more in agreement with actualism than spiritualism (including what actualism says about spiritualism).  Finally, the outcome of actualism promises immediate and terminal change to one's inner world which is guarenteed to change core motivations and in turn effect behaviors and actions in the world.  In contrast, definite changes to core motivations and behaviors are not a guarantee until the highest levels of awakening, when the emptiness lens is turned towards the inward psychological muscles of thought and emotion.

This is a smooth segue into the corresponding con of meditation, which is that it makes me feel like I have to devote myself to something which is separate or isolated from the more mundane areas of my life.  In the end, the path-shifts make these areas of my life much easier to succeed in, but while I am in the process of pursuing a path shift, I feel the dissonance of renunciation.  The advantage of meditation is that I have already had a lasting shift from it (while I have not had VF or AF), and I now know what is being talked about in certain spiritual texts.  This is important because a number of texts (particuarly those within the Mahamudra traditions) talk about further levels of enlightenment, and I could somewhat reasonable guestimate the amount and type of effort it might take to reach these levels; in other words, I have a very clear plan of attack.  Another advantage is that I can tell exactly what the path shifts have done for me, positively, which is that they have reporgrammed certain processes of sensory input to match a wider range of phenomena.  Translated, I'm simply less bipolar, have less of a range of both negative and positive emotion, and feel more realistically grounded all the time.  Other processes, such as the perception of thought, have not yet "popped" (I'm still easily trapped in obsessing).  

In terms of the way the after-effects of spiritual practice have cross pollinated with my actualist practice, I will say that getting 4th path has minimized my bipolar symptoms enough to allow for actualist practice in the first place.  So it is hard to completely to against something from which I have benefitted so greatly, but I can also not deny that even 3 months of intensive experimentation with the actualism method have not given me unique and discrete contemplative advances.

It may be that, in terms of probability, I have the highest chance of quickly getting the most dramatic positive benefits from spiritual practice.  However, this would be in a perfect world where I could just prioritize meditation, which I can not afford to do right now.  So, in terms of where I'm at in life, it makes more sense to choose a method that works with my personality, habits, schedule, and other active needs (which would be actualism).
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 1:05 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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This is me being a nag once again Noah, but what you posted about spiritual practice ("... it makes me feel like I have to devote myself to something which is separate or isolated from the more mundane areas of my life.") makes me think you misunderstand it. It is not removed from your life. In fact, since you claim 4th path - and in order to attain 4th path - you would had to have integrated your insights and your moment to moment, very mundane existence. I'm baffled by this, but maybe it's just me.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 1:41 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
This is me being a nag once again Noah, but what you posted about spiritual practice ("... it makes me feel like I have to devote myself to something which is separate or isolated from the more mundane areas of my life.") makes me think you misunderstand it. It is not removed from your life. In fact, since you claim 4th path - and in order to attain 4th path - you would had to have integrated your insights and your moment to moment, very mundane existence. I'm baffled by this, but maybe it's just me.

Hi Chris,

You're definitely not nagging, but actually making valuable points that can help me clarify my own.  My understanding of your view from reading your posts on AN and the DhO is that the core result of awakening is a change in the way we understand our life and our selves (i.e. as flowing processes, not permanent, continuous entities).  I would agree with this, but also add that the initial result of awakening is a change in the process of perception at a very raw level, which may, or may not, filter upwards, towards more refined, conceptual levels.  

Meaning, I do believe that I experienced the shift which can be commonly labelled as 'technical 4th path.'  However, it seems that the change in raw processing did not automatically cause me to change the way I view my life (and self) on a more mundane, everyday, or conceptual level.  I don't think this type of integration is an automatic result of the path moments.  

Connected to this, I personally am more interested in the irreversible after-effects of path moments, rather than any integration work that would be necesary to maintain and amplify their benefits.  Meaning, I see shifts resulting from meditation as one-time, 'psychic surgeries' that provide certain, limited, positive benefits for as long as you live, and require no upkeep.  
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 3:28 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah --

I would agree with this, but also add that the initial result of awakening is a change in the process of perception at a very raw level, which may, or may not, filter upwards, towards more refined, conceptual levels.  

Can you clarify what this means? Nothing that I know of "changes the process of perception." what happened to me is that I came to understand the process of perception, how it works, why, and how it causes ignorance (dukkha).

However, it seems that the change in raw processing did not automatically cause me to change the way I view my life (and self) on a more mundane, everyday, or conceptual level.  I don't think this type of integration is an automatic result of the path moments.

Again, what do you mean by "the change in raw processing?" This is not something that involves integration but rather a fundamental perception of what happened to you at the transition you're calling 4th path.

You seem to be in an almost perpetual struggle to figure out what practice to do, vacillating back and forth, almost agonizing over it. Why do you think that is?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 3:57 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Can you clarify what this means? Nothing that I know of "changes the process of perception." what happened to me is that I came to understand the process of perception, how it works, why, and how it causes ignorance (dukkha).


For me it was all just very mechanistic.  I did this repeated effort with my mind for thousands of hours (noting), observed predictable yet automatic/uncontrollable side effects occurring in my experience of mind and body (the nanas), and then, every once in a while, some 'pop' would occur that was very much a physical event like electricity in my skull cavity (cessation and fruition), and then I would feel permanently different, a little more each time a 'pop' occured.  

This permanent difference is what I mean by 'raw processing' or 'change in perception.'  I feel physically different, as in, more aware of my body all the time.  There is less thought and general mental fuzz in relation to the five senses, i.e. the sound of the computer keys clicking as a I type is literally more vivid then it used to be.  There is the continuous background confidence in the fact that "this is it" or "this moment is all there is" and in the fact that the my mind stream is just a process, and not a solid object.  This confidence is felt as a knowing in the body, in the sense of intuition or of subconscious inductive reasoning, perhaps.  

Things that have stayed the same are: my basic personality patterns and interests, as well as my ability to shift, in belief, about the world.  So I would not say that I have 'understood' something, at the level of ideas and concepts, that has remained permanent.  Instead, it is this physical-energetic sense that seems to have been the terminal shift.   

You seem to be in an almost perpetual struggle to figure out what practice to do, vacillating back and forth, almost agonizing over it. Why do you think that is?


It is possible that my pattern of vacillation over the past four or five months has more to do with the way my external, life situation is effecting my energy than the way my internal, contemplative habits are.  Examining both the actualism method, and meditation, from an outside point of view, has caused me to consider the option of either taking a complete break from all inner contemplation, or at least prioritizing my career/general materialistic life, over the two.  In other words, I might just need more balance.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 4:51 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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So at no time did you think about the effects of what was happening to you as a result of your efforts or examine your relationship to your experience as it was changing? You never analyzed the process? You never experienced anything at the level of consciousness? I find it hard to believe that this was all done subliminally, which is what you're describing.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 11:20 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
So at no time did you think about the effects of what was happening to you as a result of your efforts or examine your relationship to your experience as it was changing? You never analyzed the process? You never experienced anything at the level of consciousness? I find it hard to believe that this was all done subliminally, which is what you're describing.

I did analyze the process but the results of that analysis were not solidified as beliefs or insights.  The thing that has remained is what I desribed about how I still feel.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 1:08 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I did analyze the process but the results of that analysis were not solidified as beliefs or insights.  The thing that has remained is what I desribed about how I still feel.

Are you asserting that if and when a person analyzes or has conscious awareness of the progress of insight in which they are engaged that they're simply generating or, as you say "solidifying," beliefs? Insights are actual occurrences, not beliefs. To combine or conflate the two is odd.

Again, you seem to approach your journey not as a spiritual one but as therapy. None of what you did before, the analysis you're doing now, or your dilemma about what to practice next is focused on what you are as a human being and how your experience actually works, which is the transformative part of the progress of insight for the vast majority of folks who stick with it and make progress. It is those realizations that make a huge difference for folks. You're not able to describe that. 

Edit: I want to make it clear that what I'm hearing you say, Noah, is neither good nor bad. It just is. I do have to be honest, however, and say that not being able to describe the progress of insight contributes to my skepticism and the resulting questions. I'll leave it at that.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 12:02 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris:

Are you asserting that if and when a person analyzes or has conscious awareness of the progress of insight in which they are engaged that they're simply generating or, as you say "solidifying," beliefs? Insights are actual occurrences, not beliefs. To combine or conflate the two is odd.


I would say that during the occurrence of insight, the susbtantial part that remains and relieves suffering is the "subliminal" part, to use your words.  The part that occurs in the conscious mind is specific to the conceptual framework of Buddhism.  If you completely isolated an advanced contemplative from Buddhist ideas, do you think they would be having the same insights?  Was St. Teresa of Avila "understanding" aspects of dependent origination?  In my opinion, the progress of insight is just something that happens to the energy field, through a set of mental exercises, independent of the focus Buddhism happens to have, which is on perception.  Entire AYP traditions focus on the psychic perception of the central channel chakras as the unfold, allowing the kundalini to rise up the spine.  To some extent, I have experienced this as I went through the paths, i.e. kundalini now goes through my skull all the time, where it once wouldn't go past my solar plexus.  Would you discredit those ways of judging prgoress?  I relate more to a kundalini map than I do to one that focuses on insights into the sense doors.

Again, you seem to approach your journey not as a spiriutal one but as therapy. None of what you did before, the analysis you're doing now, or your dilemma about what to practice next is focused on what you are as a human being and how your experience actually works, which is the transformative part of the progress of insight for the vast majority of folks who stick with it and make progress. It is those realizations that make a huge difference for folks. You're not able to describe that. 


I would not avoid admitting that I approach my journey as therapy.  I am not in it for the truth.  I am in to feel better.  And to a pretty impressive extent, that has happened.  I can see that this is not in line with the culture of pragmatic dharma, but I am too self absorbed to care, to be honest.  There will come a time in my life when this will change, and I am working towards that time.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 12:58 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I deleted my last reply. Noah, you and I are in different places in spiritual practice and of completely different minds about the dharma. As generally is the case with these things, YMMV.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 1:03 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 1:03 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I agree that we are of different minds about the dharma.  I am happy with my mileage thus far and will keep striving with diligence.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 1:19 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 1:18 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Well, as I've said to you before, please try to keep in mind that what you want can also be aligned with what you are. If you don't know what you are then what you want can be out of sync, even impossible. The value of dharma lies not only in its results but in knowledge and wisdom. The wisdom part of the dharma informs the results part of the dharma. If these two things aren't cultivated together we can end up in a rather mercenary place, which you do admit to. That's at least a start. I think this is a potential problem with prgamatic dharma. Results can be over-emphasized and wisdom can become a secondary thing.
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Nikolai , modified 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 3:14 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/25/15 3:14 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
Well, as I've said to you before, please try to keep in mind that what you want can also be aligned with what you are. If you don't know what you are then what you want can be out of sync, even impossible. The value of dharma lies not only in its results but in knowledge and wisdom. The wisdom part of the dharma informs the results part of the dharma. If these two things aren't cultivated together we can end up in a rather mercenary place, which you do admit to. That's at least a start. I think this is a potential problem with prgamatic dharma. Results can be over-emphasized and wisdom can become a secondary thing.
Disclaimer: I'm rambling on thoughts not yet thought through.

It is interesting to see commonalities in the competing solidfying/solidifed positions and viewpoints, that which has gone on here over and over for a number of years VS the solidified positions of the various groups out there in the world causing trouble. Not that I'm equating the actions of those troublemakers to people here in this thread but at how viewpoints clash. Noah's actualist views are solidifying or have solidifed somewhat over the past months or more. Chris, yours solidifed or are somewhat of a certain shape too and its like the West trying to convince the Jihadis to stop jihadying because jihayding is bad, but not from the jihadi viewpoint. It's like two rocks pounding at eachother, one rock arguing for the peace that simply being a rock can offer, one rock arguing that you gotta know one's own 'rockiness' or else. 

End of ramble.

On a purely different note. I am quitting my job today and just from this fact, I have seen a jump in a desire to ramble about my solidfying/solidifed/liquid/gaseous viewpoints. Ah, the joys of unemployment.  

Nick
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/26/15 9:58 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/26/15 9:52 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Nick , your comment mentions groups causing trouble and so forth, which seems like an odd reference to make on this topic since there isn't any trouble. Noah and I have a pretty solid relationship. No one is conmplaining or upset.... so why the fly-by references? Everybody has a POV whether they're willing to admit it or not. I'm happy to see Noah admitting to his, which I would see as self-improvement first, and I'm happy to admit my bias for the wisdom aspects of the dharma. I think the exchanges are helpful and hopefully informative for others. If Noah asks me to stop posting on his thread, I'll stop.

Edit - comment to Nick - I would be remiss not to say that I enjoy your posts on that other place about, and with, your new son. Parenthood is the bomb, as you know. Keep up the good work.
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Nikolai , modified 8 Years ago at 11/26/15 1:07 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/26/15 1:07 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hi Chris,

yea parenthood is the bomb... Which goes off everyday in the living room. I swear, I've never picked up so many toys and other objects off a floor in my entire life, every. day. without. fail.

On jihadis and troublemakers....I put in two disclaimers at least, Chris!!!!!! (Illusory use of exclamation points). I rambled on what I'd been reading about concerning the locked in thought loops of some groups clashing with other groups. No moderating nor insinuating trouble here. I just saw two competing viewpoints and it reminded me of the jihadi viewpoint which to them is probably not possible to shift or change. I see the same thing occur wiwith some here at the DhO. If I recall, you probably had the same exchange with me at some stage in the distant past.

Rambling makes the world go round.

and with that, the urge to listen to a Led Zepplin song on youtube bids you a wonderful day.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 11/26/15 1:22 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/26/15 1:22 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 5116 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Okay - you were just rambling. That's fine. I over-reacted, obviously.

In regard to the joys of parenthood, I'm now picking up dirty dishes, helping them move from apartment to apartment, and providing financial support for education and various other ventures. Be happy picking up toys for now. Before you know it you'll be living in my world.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 5:58 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 5:57 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Nick (edit: do you ever spell it this way?),

Just wanted to thank you for jumping in.  Your rock allegory was helpful in an intuitive way.

And Chris,

As always, good to converse, even when there is a bit of friction, whose heat is then used as productive energy.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 7:05 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 6:41 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Some musings on views, actualism, and metta:

In the past, I've thought of insight as a wagon that needs speed to gain the momentum to get up a hill, and as it passes over, the hill is ground down, reducing its gradient and making the job easier.

I thought of concentration as a muscle that is exercised in the gym, and that, if you just push hard enough, for long enough, it will be forced to grow.  I am now starting to think of concentration as more of a balancing act, ala tuning the lute.

My 'view' of insight was legitimately reinforced by my success with it.  This caused me to gain confidence in my 'view-making' abilities, even though I had negative counter examples in somewhat failed views of concentration and morality.

My view of morality, for many years, has been that if I can make a 'breakthrough', with my 'big issue', then everything will get better and easier.  

I can see how these experiences contributed to me becoming increasingly confident in my understanding of the actualism method, as well as my judgement that it was the proper next step.  The ideal actualist practitioner would not have any extra views tied in with the method, since the method involves a calculated judgement of all of these aforementioned attitudes.  I am not the ideal actualist practitioner.

In fact, in the past few days, I am starting to think that I am not an actualist practitioner at all.  

If I had to say something about actualism, it would be, "its not you, its me", knowing full well that actualism will 'sail serenly on' without my participation in it.  In other words, the practice of actualism, as it really is, and not as it has been misinterpreted, is a good one.  I believe that actual freedom is a real, optional outcome whose way of being resembles the emotional tone of its ideal seeker.

If I had to use an allegory to describe of how I think of actualism, perhaps one might be the image of a house that it is more than the sum of its parts, but when you isolate each part (walls, floors, piping, shingles, furniture, occupants, lights), you stop thinking of it as a house, and maybe just as a gross, material structure, with both good and bad choices having been made in the design.  Or perhaps I would say that actualism is a pink, acid, tidal wave, rife with glistening flowers of delight, that will eat at your soul, and strip away all of your humanity, until all of the acid, as well as all of you, have evaporated, and only a field of glistening flowers remain.

It seems that I have been bounced around like a pinball, between three central bumpers of worldly goals, actualism, and spiritualism, for the past four months.  And despite the seeming confusion inherent in this process, the pinball itself has been changing and evolving, at some type of structural level, while it has been discharging all of this kinetic energy.

I got 'fourth path', and now things have changed.

I used to think of metta as a muscle, just like concentration.  Now I'm wondering if metta is almost like a drug, or a dream about how the world should be.  Something that slowly creeps into your mind and reprograms the way you truly want things to be.  I think of the movie, Inception, here. 

If my 'inner council' (as in, the Than-Geof phraseology) is in disarray, I can not do metta or concentration.  This defeats the muscle metaphor, which relies on the fact that you can force yourself to work out, regardless of your inner state.  Metta and concentration both have to work with the inner council, slowly either winning over votes or at least convincing the negative nancies to abstain for awhile.  If even one of the 12 angry men remain in their state of indignance, the process will not proceed. 

Metta is well wishing.  It is calm, warm friendliness: more "howdy neighbor", and less, "I love you so much, baby."  From metta, the other brahma viharas can be deduced.  Whatever situation well-wishing affect meets, it has an appropriate answer: the reduction of pain, the increase of pleasure, or ability to see the difference and not react.  

I am forming a new allegory here.  Is metta a movement or political campaign in the mind to win over the entire internal council?  To get everyone's attention and say "Hey, look over here!  We all want to be happy, and we are motivated to do what will make Noah happy, we just have different views of what we think that is.  Is it possible that we have more in common than in conflict?"  Then everyone in the internal council gets quiet for a moment.  After that there is ten minutes of murmering and side talk, until a consensus is reached, and announced.  The president of the meeting (who rotates every week), announces that the council will now be in full support of 'The Metta Initiative', from here on out.

I think of metta is like this.  Even the lecher inside of me, or the raging bull, or the basket case, agrees that they ultimately want me to be happy.  And with enough proper understanding and guidance, each of these parts of me can come to learn that this happiness of mine will involve other's happiness as well.  That somehow, happiness is more like a currency that passes between people and interacts with the world, than an armor that protects them from each other and the world.  If the whole council was willing to give peace a chance, THEN, maybe I could sit down and do metta.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 7:23 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 7:20 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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More on metta:

Words are packets of information that the conscious mind uses to instruct itself, and the subconscious.  The executive, inner council member speaks to all the council members at once, saying, "may we be happy."  "May we work together.  May the proper one among us arise at the proper time.  May none of us be ashamed at our existence, or wish destruction on another.  May we approve of one another, and of this mind, as a whole."

On the x axis, we have the internal family members.  And on the y axis, we have a continuum from the conscious, to the subconscious.  

Emotions are the energies that are contained in these packets of information.  Emotions have specific vectors, or directions that they are heading in.  When emotions impact certain phenomena that they are directed at, they have specific effects.  Emotions are like missiles.  A well wishing missile will swallow and protect a unit of pain.  It will bolster and propel a unit of pleasure.  And it will gladly change its course when no action is needed, and a unit would best remain as it is.  

So, on our graph, the lines are these missiles which are made of thought and emotion.  These lines travel along the y axis, deeper into the subconscious, where they have the most effect, and along the x axis, connecting members of the inner council, and bringing them into harmony with each other and with the outside world.  The line will change its course depending on which brahma vihara is necessary for which family member, at a given time.  A feeling of empowerment will be met with mudita.  A feeling of defeat will be met with karuna.  When facing the need to act on external circumstances, in spite of emotion, the need will be met with upekkha.  The general mood or atmosphere will be suffused with metta.

Perhaps these qualities are called "pure abodes" because you can't go wrong with them.

In the z axis of this model, we account for the dynamic of living, for time and space.  The line keeps moving forward through experience, the z axis, and adapting.  

This makes metta an interactive energy inside, a self-sustaining battery of love whose glow automatically transforms and adapts to illuminate people and situations in the most optimal light.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 1/3/17 9:44 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/28/15 8:10 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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repost of mine from the Awake Network

Session with Ron (11.28)


I met with Ron this morning for a skype session. I told him that my goal was to experience further baseline shifts through insight practice. We talked for awhile and he helped me reach some really important conclusions, including a plan of attack. I am going to pursue mahamudra, or something along those lines.

I asked Ron if he thought I was just giving into craving by pursuing more 'progress,' or if it was a legitimate intuition. He said technical 4th creates much more internal sensitivity, so it may likely be solid intuition. Furthermore, even if it is just craving, I will just get more insight into my psyche in the long run by letting it run its course. I feel very empowered to follow my bliss after our conversation this morning.

Ron and I both agreed that we have some idea of what the mahamudra process/pointing-out instructions might look like. We joked that it will be like: "look at the computer screen, and notice that your awareness is in the computer screen." I then decided to actually practice this during the day. I kept reminding myself to notice how sensory phenomena originally arise from a source outside of me, and then get processed in my head. In noticing this, I can start to do less 'in head' processing, and more 'out there' processing. This has massive ramifications for further reduction in suffering. What is particularly important is that when external stuff is processed this way, internal stuff then loses its power because you have weakened the central command in the brain. So thoughts and emotions are just links in the causal chain rather than MY interpretations of a world that revolves around ME and exists for me.

The difference between this level and the one I am at currently is that while I know that the "I-making and my-making" is utter bullshit, I still experience it in my direct perception. This is that next step past the intuitive knowing-and-full-acceptance, and into directly perceiving it that way, all the time and automatically. I really hope such a baseline is achievable.

I will go out on a limb and take a guess that this level (stabilized luminosity) might correspond to the 'subtle' layer of mind in mahamudra. The way that this tradition promises further mappable development, where others might not, is on stressing that there is a 'very subtle', or 'extra ordinary' level of mind that slowly gets revealed and stabilized as the field becomes more luminous. The reason this matters for me is that I can nuke the shit out of my bipolar by becoming hella vertically transcended (lol). Its exciting because I've already dealt it a huge blow so I know this stuff really works. For instance, I am completely off medications now, and several of my most extreme symptoms have permanently disappeared. It makes sense that further perceptual shifts will do more as they disempower internal phenomena.

Ron and I also discussed this idea that technical 4th path will delete the same amount of suffering for everyone, but not everyone starts in the same place. Since I started with SOOO much resistance towards moment-by-moment reality, I have more leftover suffering than the average technical-4th-pather. This is not a theory, but rather evidenced by many of Ron's other students who literally just do jhana and metta and live happily ever after, once reaching technical 4th.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 1:00 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 1:00 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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@bernd:

I was actually thinking of your log and posts in general, briefly while writing this.  I don't have any experience with metta practice.  I just think it would be nice if I could figure out a way to do it that would not involve grueling, formal sitting.  It makes sense that what you are doing (as I understand it) works, as there is no such thing as a free lunch.  There probably is not a way to get around this with metta, and certainly was not with insight for me.  Damn.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 1:15 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 1:15 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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11.30

I had an important dharma chat this month which convinced me that a lot more progress could be made on the insight axis.  I had burned out the energy that was driving me to do actualism, and switched back.  

It has only been a short period of time, but I feel like I am making huge progress.  I can sense luminosity of sight and sound with very little effort while going about my day.  I have also started to sense luminosity of thoughts and emotions, just allowing them to arise and pass on the inner screen and differentiating the corresponding physical sensations, which are separate but simultaneous.  Mind is the container that holds all of this.  

The nanas are all more pleasurable, and enhanced in weird ways, including the dukkha ones.  I woke up in a&p today and felt that all was energy and love at the same time.  The sense of my body was completely gone as I felt like a cloud of joy while sitting eating brunch with friends in a restuarant.  I then cycled into the dark night, with fear manifesting as a visceral and thrilling sense of death, and misery feeling like depression about my life.  Yet the dukkha nanas were oddly rapturous and there was a ton of space in between phenomena which held them equanimously.  I think I am now in mid EQ, which is why I am feeling inspired to write so lucidly after a day of sluggishness.  

I am sure there are more path-like shifts to be discovered, but that they are not easily linearly mappable.  I am greedy for more insight.  Most people would take the money and run, but I am still playing the game.  

There is the element to which these aspects of awareness that I seem to experiencing can filter down into the more relative aspects of individuality and personality.  This is what I hope for, but it can not be guaranteed.  I do not know if further shifts will occur all at once, like a cessation-fruition event does, or if a certain aspect will just become more and more stable until it is one day effortless and irreversable.  This second one seems like it might be the Tibetan view, as they do not talk about the 'pop' so much as the gradual stabilizing.

--------------------------------

On another note, I am feeling gratitude for the way the DhO has provided me a space to journal in an uninhibited way.  Ultimately, this is the only structure I have to my practice, especially after technical 4th.  I don't have an in-person sangha, I don't follow precepts, have not taken refuge, and have no formal teacher.  At the very least, I can communicate with others here and be able to track my progress through time. 
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bernd the broter, modified 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 7:13 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 7:13 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
@bernd:

I was actually thinking of your log and posts in general, briefly while writing this.  I don't have any experience with metta practice.  I just think it would be nice if I could figure out a way to do it that would not involve grueling, formal sitting.  It makes sense that what you are doing (as I understand it) works, as there is no such thing as a free lunch.  There probably is not a way to get around this with metta, and certainly was not with insight for me.  Damn.

Why should it be gruelling, and why more so than formal noting practice?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 1:21 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 1:21 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Eh, you know, hindrances shmindrances.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/2/15 12:03 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/15 3:25 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.1

The weird, rapturous nana cycling is continuing.

I also started trying to see libido luminously, which means I have to separate the trigger/initial stimulus, from the physical reaction, from the energetic event.  The energetic event is where I am still embedded, having gotten really good at seeing compounded mind-body events causually during previous insight practice.

I am starting to get better at thought-emotion luminosity with only medium effort.  I intuitively feel that the next step is to continue this so that it becomes low effort eventually.  From there, no effort/automatic all-the-time, would be the popping of that sense category.  But there is another aspect to bring in, which seems to be parallel to this one: welcoming the thought-emotion phenomena as a specifically positive, expression of awakeness energy.  I don't know specifically where I got this from, but its definitely an idea from different Tibetan sources.

Luminosity of sight, sound, touch, and proprioception is coming along nicely, at perhaps a low-medium effort level.  It seems like it will evolve organically and I don't need to push it really hard.  The internal-energy stuff seems more important, as that will be evolve less easily.  

In terms of the positive approach, it seems that all phenomena, arising simultaneously with awareness, at all times, deserve to be seen as part of the sacred process.  If you lessen the focus on causality and equanimity that is found in the Theravada, and just allow things to be a little irrational and really tune in, there is this sort of intensity to everything.  Everything is part of this supercharged battery called awareness, or something like that.  

_________________________

I feel a good momentum building.  I think I'm getting over the initial shock of switching back from actualism to meditation.  It is rough and disassociating, in a way, but I am very driven because I can see how it is already helping me be less stuck to thoughts and emotions.  The physical sensation stuff isn't as important to me, but I feel like becoming centerless is a project that must be undertaken in every area so I am doing it.  Also, I think luminosity of sight and sound is one lens on 'objective reality': meaning, there is something truer about it then about the way I was perceiving things before.  And somehow that truth validates it for me.  

This momentum is similar to how I felt with noting where I would just keep going, all day, no matter what.  I think it kicked in today because I added in noticing for sexual energy, all thoughts, and all emotions.  Eventually, I will add in sense of time, and it will be very near complete.  

___________________________

I was just talking to my mom on the phone and she keeps bringing up the subject of me getting an hr job which is very frustrating.  I am not able to go about things like 'normal' folks who can just suck it up and do it even though it hurts.  The only thing that has worked is meditation, which is a process of integrating parts of my mind to make it hurt less.  I decided to sit with determination until I have completely opened all the categories of perception once and for all.

It may have been the most powerful experience I ever had.  I progressed from hard 1st jhana to hard 2nd to hard 3rd.  There were formless sub aspects appearing at times.  There was some feeling of rewiring in the groin region.  At the peak of the jhanic effects it felt like most of my energy body was submerged in a deep pool but a top part of it was floating like a bouey at the surface.  I was doing luminosity of all sense objects the whole time, including luminosity of the absorption factors.  There was also the appearance of the quality of volitionlessness at one point were I had this profound sense that at a certain layer of awareness there is absolutely no free will, only Mind doing Mind with no participation.  

I think this meditation is a sign for me to keep going.  I want to prove people wrong.  Everyone says "just suck it up", there's no replacement for "hard work." This pisses me off because I am saying that I wish to heal myself first and then get on with life and everyone else is saying just get on with life even if you're not ready.  I want to prove that it is possible to heal bipolar disorder with insight meditation and that the responsibilities of life can become permanently and irreversably enjoyable and not any shittier version of that!
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/3/15 5:25 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/3/15 5:09 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.2

-Went through various moods at work today.  Did a rigorous nine hour shift with some agitation but also a feeling of transcendence.  I can't deny the progress that I have made on this path.  I hate that pragmatic dharma people need to isolate 'insight' as a separate axis of development so intensely.  For me they all come together.  

I have been doing the same luminosity type thing.  I sense that it will take at least a couple months of intensive daily practice to stabilize any of this.  I am down for the long haul.

__________________

Notes about karma in the form of a poem:


is it terrifying?  the way this has happened to me
the way life has fucking warped me?  

I can viscerally remember, in my emotional screen-
crying to my english professor- the shock in my bones
and the degree of intense fear I felt and practiced,
smoking marijuana again and again, or sneaking into my house at night, trying not to wake up my parents

my nervous system memorized the pattern of fear and paralysis at a young age
one of the biggest forms of the buddhist karma is just the nervous system’s memory

I can see how karma is shaped
how the mind is clay, takes on a form, again and again
it hardens that way

But is it terrifying?  or is it remarkable in its fullness
the way an emotional memory is not the same thing as the event itself,
yet carries with it a certain essence that moves forward in time
the way the nervous system is this living entity, in a certain type of interaction with its environment, like the symbiosis in an ecological system

or you could think of the nervous system as a neon sign,
that glows only when it absorbs electrical energy from the air
and i just absorbed a lot of electrical energy and now i rehash it, again and again

this is what the buddha called the seeds of karma
and why he was obsessed with controlling your actions and acting positively and intending positively, etc.
the very process of karma is fucking incredible
the coolest movie ever
the best reality imaginable
samsara is oozing with nirvana
with enlightened energy

memories glow in this present moment
representing previous glowing present moments
the process of the mind which storehouses things is glowing, so full, so three dimensional

is the way the mind works terrifying or magical?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/4/15 4:46 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/3/15 4:16 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.3

I can see how my perceptual process includes an element of 'specialization' or 'selection', which I would consider to me more sutble than most descriptions of the 3 c's that I read.  When there is thought and emotion and preference between those things, that arise, where they are, volitionlessly, and full of energy or gusto, there is still some sense of classification of this inner world as different from that outer world that triggers it.  There is a subtle tint of 'myness' to the inner world, even though there is intuitively no center.  Another example of 'selection' in perception: my mind either chooses to focus on the center part of the visual field (looking down the nose), or the periphery of the visual field (spacing out), even after I have noticed, with strength, the luminosity of the vision and have stopped targeting specific objects in the visual field.  

In either case, attention has a subtle preference to put some form of blinders on still: to somehow dam up the rushing, wild river of qualia.  This habit of mind seems to be somehow linked to the creation of stress, although I am not sure how yet.  To permanently destroy this habit is to let the subjective experience mirror the greater bandwidth of what is 'out there', and therefore it would be impossible to have any resistance of it.  See DreamWalker's "A framework of awakening" thread for my source on this idea.  

___________________________

Isn't everything just a continuous stream of experience?  I can't let the 'one taste' make me sloppy and forget about luminosity and volitionlessness, yet there is something wonderful to tuning out and relaxing in this way a little bit.  I move so far out sometimes that I forget I'm a human.  The other aspect is synesthesia, which is strengthened by non-conceptuality.  Meaning, thought, emotions, "me" is all the same and as naturally occuring as the sights and sounds of the external environment.  
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 1/3/17 9:45 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/4/15 6:36 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.4

some theory/concept notes:

On Formal Sitting Not Being Necessary

Although it is good that I am not egotistical regarding practice, I think sometimes it obscures my clarity when I feel insecure about whether I am 'doing the real thing.'  For instance, without formal retreats or even daily sitting in a posture, is it possible to get enlightened?  From my experience the answer is clearly a resounding 'yes.'  I found MCTB empowering because it spoke about intense, sustained effort leading to specific outcomes.  It was exactly the kind of black-and-white understanding that fits my personality.  

The bottom line is how much application of a meditation technique is necessary to induce a certain shift in perception (and what I would call the energy body).  I believe the worldwide focus on sitting in one place and not moving is missing the point of this bottom line.  Meaning, if one can apply the technique more effectively while driving or walking or serving cocktails, then that meets the criteria for the bottom line.  The caveat is that most people get more good meditating done if they complete isolate it from other activities.  It just isn't the case with everyone.  

On Translating Mahamudra

The Mahamudra tradition does not just come right out and describe the different aspects of true awareness/mind as they are experienced in daily life, once stabilized.  Now where does it say, "luminosity means that the visual field consists of brilliant colors and shapes, all being perceived non-conceptually, and arising where they are."  Or that, "luminosity means that the auditory field consists of physical vibrations detectable in the environment, and the ever-present background of silence from which  these vibrations arise and pass."  It doesn't specify that in extraordinary awareness, there is no continuous distinction between the visual and auditory fields, thus suggesting a permanent state of synesthesia-like flow.  

Furthermore, there is not explicit mention that this dramatic reduction in center-point processing of the external has vast ramifications for the internal, including the freeing up all dualistically-based suffering surrounding thoughts and emotions, which will, in turn, tend to pacify these thoughts and emotions to some degree, or at the very least, allow for easy control over them.  Taking things a step further, it makes sense that there would no longer be distinction between the river of external sight and sound, and the river of internal processes and interpretations.  Inner and outer could completely dissolve, and become the new, walking around baseline.  

With full spectrum processing and no cherry-picking in attention going on, volitionlessness, from the ultimate standpoint that relieves suffering, seems to make more sense.  Processing is inherently passive.  There is a receiving end of awareness in the human brain, but there is nothing substantial about it that separates it from the rest of the field.  The field is doing itself, all the time.  Even the sense of moving the body or directing thought, is just that, a sense taking place in awareness. 

And then from there, since there is just one spectrum or one field, there is no spectrum or no field (i.e. the whole "one without a second" hindu idea).  There is this idea in Mahamudra that you shouldn't attach to any of the individual aspects of the extraordinary experience, even though they are there (i.e. don't over-emphasize clarity or bliss).  The way I read that, it is because there is no mind/awareness, just pure, unfiltered reality, including physical and mental being left alone.  When this reality is left alone, there are certain aspects of relative attention within the human brain that become more prominent (i.e. bliss, compassion, brightness, lucidity).  

Am I fooling myself here in thinking that I could translate this stuff into a personal understanding, and then re-interpret the sitting meditation instructions to adapt to my walking around practice?  Isn't that the whole point of pragmatic dharma, that this stuff is supposed to work as it is displayed on the label, rather than the directions being some mythic outcome inciting a wellspring of inspired energy towards an ultimately futile process?

The key for me is that my experience of 'technical 4th path' is that I have some intuitive sense of what is behind the curtain (all of the these aspects of mind), and it never leaves me.  But I believe that it is possible to fully pull the curtain back, and have a stabilized perception of these things.  And it ultimately comes down to that aspect of MCTB that inspired me in the first place (the idea that there is a process, leading to permanent change and the way to get there is through CONTINUOUS perception).  So, who's to stop me from noticing these individual aspects of mind, from morning to night, until they stabilize? 

p.s.- The key message is permanent change, not temporary treatment.  I notice myself wishing that everyone had this view, but that is just me projecting from an unintegrated part of my psyche.

________________________________

experience from earlier:

Met with friends for a dharma chat tonight which had some interesting moments in my consciousness, which continued in solo meditation tonight.  There is the undeniable sense in my gut that 'progress' for me will entail permanent reduction in obsessive thought patterns through a permanent increase in seeing reality as inherently pleasurable in its fullness.  I may have done a little peice of that tonight.  If it lasts, I will report further.  Otherwise, even stringing together bits of time were obsessive thinking is dramatically and automatically lessened, is still good training for the brain.  It occurred through a series of fruitions were my intuitive sense going in was that I was leaning into something really nice that was "out there" and if I let myself fall over than I can make the switch to that way of being forever.  This has also been the case with previous paths, so I am hoping that this moment was another shift.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/6/15 4:19 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.5 

Still felt different today.  If the subtle change persists, I will tentatively label it "dialing down thoughts & emotions 1", with the expectation of further change in this area in the future.  

I had some word fruition-like moments were kundalini popped out of my head and there was a blip.   One was accompanied by the sense that part of my the heaviness of my being was literally disintegrating into the air like dust in the wind. 

I then felt really grumpy for a while at work, which was clearly a combination of sleep deprivation, hunger, and cycling between nanas 7 through 9.  It continued after I got home, at which point I called my dad and talked in frustrated tones about how, despite all my vast improvements to my internal world, I am still. externally a couch potato, and a lazy slob.  My dad helped me realize that if patterns continue, unpredictable benefits from meditation will arise in the future, which is 'good news' saying that I should expect that event this ingrained trait will eventually unknot.

_________________________

There was another fruition-like moment from earlier today, that I just remembered, where reality became very clear and I felt this super-knowing that 'this is it' and 'this is all that will ever be.'  There seemed to be the possibility of further insight on the cognitive level arising from this, but I didn't pursue it.  

p.s.- I know that fruitions must involve discontinuities in experience, which is why I say 'fruition-like' and not 'fruition.'  But the reason I don't attribute these moments today to either a&p's or high eq's is that the instinctive taste was different from how these nanas usually are, and also because when kundalini goes all the way through my skull, a frution is usually linked to it.

__________________________

There is this certain sense of completeness and at-home-ness that I have access to since technical 4th.   It is helpful to remind myself that this is basically just a taste of something much greater that can be stabilized.  I am not talking about 'technical 4th' for everyone, just in my specific case.  So whether or not it feels "right" or "necessary" to keep practicing in these moments of done-ness, I am reminded of all those times when the defilements run rampant, and that is all the fuel I will ever need to keep going.
_________________________

Defilement = All mental/emotional/energetic/somatic tensions and stresses, regardless of depth, complexity or cause
Fetter = Tension or stress held deeply in the subconscious (which may manifest through any of the above layers of being) which can most reliably be released through 'wisdom' gained from contact with emptiness
Hindrance = More transitory stress or tension, frequently with passing causes related to daily life, and unrelated to deeper personality patterns

p.s.- It seems to me that 'fetters' do exist in the way that the Buddha was talking about them, but just that he didn't have the psychological paradigm or phraseology to honor the complexity of differing, individual experience.  Meaning, different people are going to have different, persisting, subconscious tensions based on temperament, genetics, environment, culture, etc.  

I am realizing that I would call my main goal the uprooting of the fetters, which does seem to describe what happens when I have a solid path-like shift and some stress goes away and never comes back.  I would not say that I struggle most prominently with the hindrances, which I would relate to more day-to-day, rationally-based tensions (i.e. legitimately stressful life situations, vs making normal things hard b/c of my personal karma).  

_________________________________

-I just had another fruition.  This one was proper, as I was lying down and closing my eyes and detected the cessation.  There were actually two within a minute. It felt like a psychic cold energy knife cut through my center point at a much deeper and thorough level than before, such that I couldn't 'self' around things even if I tried really fucking hard.  This was the depth of the understanding at that moment.  I feel this after glow where my vision feels displaced, and the things I am looking at literally seem closer.  Also sounds of the keys are like physical pleasure missiles hitting my body as I type.  Furthermore, the coldness of the knife in that moment is with me in a sense of chill resonating in the body.  There was also some type of intuitive vertigo.  Meaning, I did not literally turn upside down, but the ideas of 'upside' and 'downside' that are stored in my deeper body/psyche were shown to be completely relative to my experience, and non-existent in pure awareness,  which doesn't give a fuck about true north.

-Okay so this feels like the first a&p all over again but way deeper and incorporating everything.  The way that the logic of the a&p is to break just one rule about external reality enough to cause a spiritual opening... well this logic is to break the central rule that very deeply 'Noah has been here the whole time.'  I literally feel as if I just woke up from a dream.  Strong witness and sense of shaktified joy.  But there is something missing which is my focus and obsession with phenomenology and perception.  I feel very strongly that the point of perceptual shifts through meditation is to show you that perception is bullshit anyway and that this is all just a dream/illusion/maya.  Nirvana is this moment of getting out of maya, no?  Advaita says that is nondually one with maya at all times, and I have experienced that a lot, but I can say with confidence this experience right now is totally new.  wtf is this?

Yeah all of perception is like a sheet of paper that gets crumpled up and thrown away and something else remains behind and it has this weird sinking feeling to it or the sense of eeriness or creepiness I guess.  There is a sense of big, broad smile, and a wink of god in the background, but not in either the formed or the formless sense, just in a wispy knowing, I suppose.  There is no intensity to any of it because it is all seen through so totally that its just more corners of the sheet of paper interacting with other corners of the sheet of paper and there is nothing else other than the sheet of paper and its just not that scary lol.  Distinct sense of 'this incarnation', meaning, this body and mind are just vessels and there is maybe (???) something outside of them that continues?  All I can say at this moment is that Theravadan nirvana, involving the realization of a seperate space, seems real and more powerful than continuous nonduality in this space.

-Okay also I just looked at my sense of aversion towards tasks which is the mean thing I struggle with.  It was in the form of not wanting to get out of bed to turn the heat up even though I was getting cold (yes I can be that lazy).  I always turn away from the aversion in its pure form since it is my 'big issue' so its kind of like looking into the sun.  This time I just saw it as another train in my personality and I had this vision of it as a rope or something like that.  I just thing objectifying it in this way brought me closer to it.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/6/15 12:35 AM
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Here's an inspiring quote:


The Nyarong Tertön Rinpoche (i.e., Tertön Sogyal) said:

“At this, the time for discovering Buddha directly, you must remain alone, without companions, in an isolated mountain retreat—with a staff to the right, a container of grain to the left, a coppe
r pot in front, and a cave behind. From now until the attainment of enlightenment, you must look upwards, entrusting ourselves to the teacher and Three Jewels, and downwards, into the naked unity of awareness and emptiness. At all times and in all situations, you must guard the fortress of the view, just as you would cherish a diamond. And you must continue meditating until, your eyes turned lifeless and blue, you breathe your very last breath.”
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/6/15 3:09 AM
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Is morality about not being self-centered?

I was surprised to find myself reading Ona Kiser's ebook 'A Soul Suspended', as well as her blog on Christianity, tonight.  Both are totally, publicly viewable, to whom it may concern.  Even though I have known about her wonderful writing for awhile now, its not directly pertinent to my practice, so I usually don't tune in.  I think the reason I did tonight is that some part of my mind is aware that insight progress through meditation will not meet the full spectrum of my needs.  I do not know this, as a fact, because there is strong evidence that meditation has worked for me where all other, conventional methods have failed.

I felt some sense of strength or power, reading Ona's blog.  I don't mean it in the sense of shakti, or psychic energy transference, but rather just that I had a flash of understanding, in a more embodied way, of what she might be getting at.  Previous times had consisted only of intellectual curiosity.  To paraphrase some of her discussion topics, she talks about simplicity (grounded in others-centerdness) leading to not needing extra attention or validation from others.  This contrasts with a sense of being 'honest' based around having no verbal filter in social situations (which I can certainly relate to).  She also talks about Christianity as a religion of action, rather than a path involving special, perceptual states.

I am very aware that she is expressing one, fairly extreme, end of the spectrum.  I tend to fall on the special perception end of the spectrum.  The potential downfall of this, uber-pragmatic, phenomenologically-based, school-of-thought is that it can tend to lump all morality-based practices together and simplify them down to "just be a good person, in a basic, sane, kind, and intellegent way."  I know for a fact that this view has not been skillful means for me to adopt a more fulfilling lifestyle.  I would also guess that it is objectively more complex than that.  Meaning, some approaches to morality are better, or more sophisticated than others.  What I am trying to say is that Sila is not that simple, and that there ARE aspects of Sila that are unique to religion/spirituality, and not contained in a conventional, "down-to-earth", secular worldview.

I just had a flash of something that seemed important, but now I am losing it.  Words do not seem to fit what I felt.  It just felt like there is another way of living, that I could discover, if I could just open up to the fact that maybe I should be less self-centered.  It seems like it is a process that could happen on its own, and actually change my motivation, rather than me fighting myself at every turn.

Edit/Additional Thoughts:

Part of what I am realizing is that it doesn't matter how one gets to an embodied sense of morality in life (that is entrained with wisdom/emptiness, btw!!), but rather that they JUST DO IT.  Whatever it takes to get from point a to point b is skillful means.  This is what worked for me with insight.  

It doesn't matter which religion or spiritual view or sub-view is correct.  What matters is that it fully resonates with your logic and emotions so you can actually get behind a change in conduct or affect, or whatever.  In other words, I don't have to 'be right' or 'figure it out.'  The buddhist-geeky view is to think of it as morality hacking, but I am talking about feeling it out as a way of life or a way of being.  This involves allowing certain beliefs to solidify without vipassanizing or mahamudrizing them.  It is not healthy to be disembedded from positive, new, mental habits as they arise.

Edit 2:

I see a pattern in my development in different areas (which I think I also see in others), which is that, at a certain point, pure need for actual change now, usurps the various other desires, such as 'figuring it out', feeling comfortable, or getting 'permission' from a teacher/school of thought to act.  It doesn't really matter whether there is any fundamental/ultimate aspect to being a good person, does it?

What matters is that one can not maximize the benefit of meditation shifts without strong morality.  I see it through the metaphor of cooking a stew.  It simply a matter of what tastes good in the end, not finding the perfect recipe or perfect measurements.  Also in the metaphor, there would be no set proportions as the amount, and type of stew, one cooks, will vary depending on person and life situation.  There is no right stew for everyone.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/6/15 11:48 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.6

-Feel very solid this morning.  Last night's realization continues.  Listening to Abraham Hicks.  Will practice this law of attraction technique today.  It makes sense in the face of beautiful detachment.

-It feels like last night might have been an insight on the 'instinctive' level, that glued things together for me.  So now when I recognize special perception, I will have no confusion about what it is trying to tell me/ what the value is.

___________________

-The odd muting effect/general increase in pleasurable processing seems to be continuous since Friday night.

-I just did the noticing (where things are) that I've been doing, and got kundalini, through the head, zapping the sense of witness, and sending me into medium 2nd jhana.  I stayed with the mindfulness, noticing the spacial elements of the absorption, and placing my attention in a nonlocalized way throughout the visual and auditory fields.  Mental images arose but were not sticky.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/8/15 4:09 AM
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12.7

-I went through a stressful experience this morning that put me more in touch with the balanced direction that I need to go in.  I realize that things like money and status are only seen to be empty to those who already have them.  Then these people search for an intra (psycho-emotional self-knowledge), inter (friendship) & trans (spiritual) - personal connection.  My case is much rarer in that I see how all of the inner life stuff can be empty after awhile. 

Anyone who is serious about anything spends less time talking and thinking about it, and more time acting on it.  This is equally true in matters of meditation and money.  I have actualized this with meditation but not with most other things in life.

Financial planning and physical health are more important than being happy or being comfortable.  There are rules to being successful in modern society and they are non-negotiable.  I am finally starting to have enough space in my brain to realize that.

The way I categorize things in my brain is not really that valuable to me.  My obsessing makes me think that I can find a way out.  I have tried to do this with medications, therapy, meditation and actualism.  There is no way out.  Life requires daily diligence in performing tasks that are not really enjoyable.  The only difference between me and everyone else is that it did not occur to anyone else to let themselves of the hook.  It is time to retrain my brain to not let itself of the hook.  Chop wood, carry water.

-On the meditation end of things, I am continuing to hop back and forth betweeen the different sense doors and notice their objects luminously arising where they are.  When it seems appropriate, I am allowing all the sense doors to have 'one taste.'  Related to this, there are times when I allow the effect of synesthesia by noticing how it is all vibration, or raw data.  When this works, there is a notable absence of conceptual and subtler categorization between sense doors.

I feel happily muted in thoughts and emotions.  Almost cloudlike in my head area.  There is that lasting intuitive knowledge that this is all a dream, this mind-body incarnation.  Perception is bullshit, and thats okay.  This new level of insight doesn't feel empowering or validating, like previous shifts have.  It feels soothing.  Also, the passage of time is less stressful and less boring.  Life feels easier and I am not plugged into it.

-I wanted to note an improved pattern in the meditation.  Sounds->luminous.  Sight->luminous.  Kundalini triggered->luminous.  Attachment to kundalini->not luminous.  I switched over to realize that even the attachment to the kundalini was okay.  Its just a pattern happening in this Noah.  This Noah's inner world is free to do as it likes.

-I have insomnia and in the last 2 days I have been waking up short of breath.  I have the sense of altered reality coming in and out of consciousness, and a certain terror that manifests through being short of breath, via the heart rate increasing and tension in the neck and chest.  Just now, coming in and out of sleep this way, within a ten minute span, I was investigating luminosity.  I notice the tendency to 'attach' to these unpleasant moments of sensing.  But the truth is that awareness is the container for all of this, even in the dark moments.  Even in moments of evil or suffering, awareness is the container for that which arises and passes.  It knows.  We dont want to look there, and see that mind is everywhere.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/8/15 6:35 AM
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Hi, Noah - interesting reading here. Can you explain what you mean by "luminous?"
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/8/15 6:57 AM
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Chris Marti:
Hi, Noah - interesting reading here. Can you explain what you mean by "luminous?"

Acknowledging that I am probably in over my head using Mahamudra terminology, here is what I associate with 'luminosity.'  First, it is also called 'clear light', both being translations of the Tibetan word Osel.  I think the Tibetans devised ways of describing the background sense field of experience without pinning it down to a formed or limited set of attributes.  So they might say that it is 'spacious', 'clear', 'bright' and 'lucid', but these aren't really saying anything, because they are just describe the inner and outer environment when there isn't self-contraction going on.

My direct experience, if I use the sense door of touch as an example, is that when an itch arises on my leg, it is specifically not arising as an impression in my head or heart processing center.  It occurs three or four feet away, and then there may or may not be the sensation or impression in the usual central processing areas (i.e. the witness).  Both of these things would be arising 'simultaneously' with the awareness that animates them into perception.  I have found 'simultaneous' to be another helpful Tibetan translation.

In doing this noticing excerise for each prominent sense object, as they arise, I have been experiencing some really cool, stress-relieving changes in perception over the past couple weeks.  For me, these are improvement to the last shift that occured in July.  Specifically, by allowing thought and emotional energy to be aware, as it is, I have been freed of a lot of the bodily agitation that has typically automatically accompanied these occurences.  Adding in a lens of positivity or appreciation of the fullness or dynamism of these internal objects has strengthened this effect.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/8/15 3:59 PM
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I want to make sure I understand - is "luminous" referring to some of the objects of in perception? Are some objects luminous and others not? If that's the case, what defines a luminous object as opposed to one that is not - the amount of attention it occupies?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/8/15 5:33 PM
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No, all of perception is inherently luminous.  My efforts are to reveal this quality to myself, over and over.  To remove the filters which prevent me from seeing this.  The filters themselves are also luminous :p
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/9/15 7:12 AM
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12.8

-I ran four miles today.  Its been over 6 months since I have ran more than 1.5 miles.  I just had so much extra energy from not being stressed out or sucked into thought patterns.  There was the sense that I kept being refreshed by my environment, communicating with the birds and the trees, the charge in the air, etc.  Never had an experience like this before.  I have always associated running with fighting off obsessing, and generally being self-defeating.

-Other than that, it is clear that progress is being made.  My inner state is improving.  It is seeping into my outer actions.  Less impulsiveness.  More being in the moment in a relaxed way where I don't get too bogged down by the passage of time.  
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/9/15 8:30 AM
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No, all of perception is inherently luminous.  My efforts are to reveal this quality to myself, over and over.  To remove the filters which prevent me from seeing this.  The filters themselves are also luminous :p

Okay, NOah, so all phenomena are inherently luminious. What does that mean?

I'm focusing on this because I think you have some really important insghts going here as you post them but the language is foggy to me. I'm, just trying to understand what you're seeing because I think it's very, very valuable. My version of it is that everything, literally everything we can experience, is an object. Even our sense of impermanence, our sense of awareness, and how all of it fits together. You are, at least I think you are, beginning to see and describe that. Yes? No?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/9/15 12:22 PM
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Chris,

Yes, "everything is an object" definitely fits.  I really think I saw that in a solid way at least six months ago.  It was pivotal in me getting to that shift that was labelled 'technical 4th.'  The main difference between what I am doing now vs then, is that I am purposely using other pointers beyond 1-dimensional disembedding, to notice things in perception that will cause further reduction in suffering.  While before I could observe the 3 C's in the sense of witness itself, the qualities of the witnessing, and all of the things being perceived, now I am taking the platform of mindfulness gained and using it to model this process in 3-D, I guess.  That seems to be the difference.

I think that you are asking about the implications of all of this, when you say, "what does it mean"?  My best answer is that perception is bullshit.  This mind and body that we take so seriously is none other than a fugazi.  Don't put so much intensity and attachment to it.   Let it play out.  Relax, breathe, smile.  These are the implications that I am most recently discovering.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 7:40 AM
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12.9

-Crazy rapturous experience of detachment from mind & body again.  It feels epic in its scope, as if I am detaching from this incarnation as a whole.  Still not trying to take it too seriously.

I think I need to start doing community service or something.  Be less self absorbed.  There are other parts of the path, after all...

-I am becoming more clear on what meditation is NOT doing for me.  It is not helping me become less of a couch potato/slob, and it is not helping me become less self-absorbed.  I definitely need to keep meditating though because things are really cooking up.  Even times when I normally get depressed are not nearly as bad.  Like tonight I had drinks with friends and could feel it bubbling in my mind.  In the past I would pretty much get sucked into a rabbit hole of negativity but the mood was pretty much just broken down into its compenent parts which each dissipated as quickly as they arose.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 7:54 AM
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The Four Noble Truths


Something just clicked for me as I went back into reading "Buddhism Without Beliefs."  I first read this book at least five years ago, before I had even crossed the a&p.  It has a totally different dimension now.  I have since read a lot of Than-Geoff's somewhat traditionalist writing.  Batchelor talks about the same thing Than-Geoff does, in saying that each noble truth requires a completely different mode of action or way of being.  They are not facts to be believed, but things to act upon.  It occurs to me that what many of us are doing here in pragmatic dharma is focusing on the action required by the third truth, which is realizing thecessation of suffering.  To me, "realizing" is a good way to describe the way that the progress of insight effects the energetic system.  It changes what you are, at a literal level, by balancing things out in the mind and body.  Cessation is simply the event in this process of change that 'does the damage' or seals the deal.

I have personally taken this to be sufficient as the cure that I was looking for.  I took the progress of insight to be the entire gameplan.  This view has made me somewhat mercantile in the way I think and talk about the practice.  However, I have had a lot of internal debate about this, as well as some external debate with others, both in person, and in the cloud.  The incongruency arises when one takes this action on the third truth to be the entirety of the path.  Have I understoodthe cause of suffering?  Not really.  Have I let go of its origins?  Not really.  It occurs to me that the third truth might be the only one that is not unique to Buddhism.  I say this because of the mappability of the insight process across time and place in human history.  

Perhaps the development of fundamental insight is NOT the 'core' teaching of the Buddha, but only part of a set of equally necessary components?  Perhaps pragmatic dharma is simply a cultural rebalancing, which is a thing that naturally seems to happen in human societies, over time.  If thats the case, then the other truths were just as important, this entire time.  It just so happens that no one at IMS or the other mainstream hubs were treating realization-cessation as a realistic prospect.  

So, what is it that I have been missing?  Well, I have not viscerally understood the cause of suffering.   I have not really grokked it.  The cause is self-centeredness.  This arises out of the attention in the head-heart center automatically perceiving itself to be the center of the universe, when really it is just a spontaneously arising (albeit complex) phenomenon, at one point in time and space.  Self-centeredness is a basic confusion about 'where we are' and 'what we are.'  We have this super-charged sentience and intelligence, but lack the basic information for how to orient ourselves.  

From self-centeredness, we begin to assume other things about how events should play out in the world around us.  If we are the literal, center of the universe, then everything else should unfold according to our expectations.  We begin to cling to certain scenarios that favor us.  This pairs with a craving of certain sensory experiences: sex, good food, money, altered states, power, relaxation, etc.  The craving part seems to also be linked to the animalistic genes we have each inherited.  This part is equally important.  

After grokking the cause of suffering, the next step is to 'let go' of it.  To me this implies action on the mundane or conventional level.  In an affective and conceptual way, we have to believe that it is worthwhile to stop craving.  We have to let go of control based on the fact that we have never been in control in the first place.  We have to let go of blindly pursuing satisfying sensory experiences.

To me, this actually leads into the fourth truth, which would be cultivating the path.  We have to learn to pursue the right sensory experiences.  There is probably no way to entirely eliminate the source of pain (unless actual freedom is definitely possible for everyone, and there is just such a small sample size of success stories :-(  ).  Instead, the ensuing suffering is to be treated.  So, understanding that one can not completely put a stop to sensory desire, one has to work with this energy, learning to go after more wholesome desires, like jhana or health food (lol).  One has to take a good look at objective cause and effect, outside of one's subjective experience.  This seems to tie in with the teachings of karma and merit.  Why be generous?  Because it is the antidote to the poison of self-centeredness and self-absorption, at least on a psycho-emotional level.  Why act ethically?  Because it is the antidote to the poison of guilt, and also obsessing over what course to take.  The Buddha gave us some rules about how to live so that we wouldn't OVER think things and be trapped in anxiety about which course to take.

------------------

Long story short, I think this is what I have been missing.  This is why I obsess, why I am still tense, when other who have reached my stage in the insight process are much happier on average.  It's not about me.  It's never been about me.  The universe is just doing its thing, and I am a part of this doing.  

But this insight is to be balanced with the fact that I am responsible for my actions.  The Buddha was all about encouraging people to act with a sense of vigor and gusto, but only the right actions.  I should not give into my every whim and eat junk food and sit on the couch all day while cultivating a volitionless, luminous, centerless perception.  I should cultivate a volitionless, luminous, centerless perceptual process, while cultivating the proper conceptual and affective outlook, and then acting on both of these in the world.  THAT is the path, not just any one part of it isolated.

-----------------

Also, at the very least, merit and rebirth (and the cosmology as a whole) are necessary and helpful bolsters to practice.  They protect against the existential uncaring that can arise; "why care so much or try so hard at life? even if the Buddha was right, this approach is a little intense for me!"  Merit and rebirth are the antidote to this poison.  My life matters in the long term because this is not my only incarnation.  Even if humans destroy the planet, there will be other parallel universes, or other planets where sentience will continue and we will be reborn into these places and times and peoples.  So this is the impetus to act now in the best interest for ourselves and the planet, even though the physicality of all this is in a state of inherent decay ('all compound things').    

--------------------

Someone recently suggested to me that I was born into this incarnation, with the bipolar condition, so that I would have enough crap to work through to be forced to push beyond 'technical 4th path' and not settle in my realization.  This sort of made sense at the time.  I now also think that another facet of the conditions of this incarnation for me are that I will have to learn how acting on the 3rd noble truth is not enough (i.e. wisdom doesn't solve all your problems).  One has to do the other three steps of the program as well.  So maybe this is my karmic script playing out as its supposed to.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 10:54 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Let's forget about luminous.

So, what is it that I have been missing?  Well, I have not viscerally understood the cause of suffering.   I have not really grokked it.  The cause is self-centeredness.  This arises out of the attention in the head-heart center automatically perceiving itself to be the center of the universe, when really it is just a spontaneously arising (albeit complex) phenomenon, at one point in time and space.  Self-centeredness is a basic confusion about 'where we are' and 'what we are.'  We have this super-charged sentience and intelligence, but lack the basic information for how to orient ourselves.  

Applause!!!

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Dream Walker, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 3:25 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
Let's forget about luminous.

Lets not  :o)

Chris Marti:

Okay, so all phenomena are inherently luminious. What does that mean?

I'm focusing on this because I think you have some really important insights going here as you post them but the language is foggy to me. I'm, just trying to understand what you're seeing because I think it's very, very valuable.

My version of it is that everything, literally everything we can experience, is an object.
Even our sense of impermanence, our sense of awareness, and how all of it fits together.

Chris, when you say that awareness is an object, what are it's attributes?


Let me throw out there that one attribute of awareness is the locational aspect of the "knowingness". When I look at a light switch across the room, where does the knowingness of the light switch arise? Does it arise in your head, eyes, center, self - or does the knowingness of the light switch arise in the lightswitch?
If its arising perceptually at the location of the lightswitch, that it knows itself, out there and not "in here" then it could be called luminious.

Why they used that word, that allows conflating of several visual perceptual shifts, instead of just saying the locational aspect of knowningness....well *shrug*... here is a guess - I have had visual perceptual shifts in sub-stages that if I had all at once, including the knowingness locational shift, then luminious would be an awesome word to use. Because the things I see now have different qualities than they used to.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 5:56 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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DW, I think the word "luminous" is very, very fuzzy. No one seems to be explain it so that it's sensible, so I find it to be pretty much useless in describing anything about existence and how we experience it. Personal preference, of course.

In re "Awareness" - for me this object arises when I think about experience and it has an aura about it of "me" versus "that" so that I think I'm separated into inside/outside, what is aware and what this mind is aware of, even though this subject-object duality can be very, very subtle and well hidden. It's a thought that, like all thoughts, is not outside of experience but part of it. If carefully investigated, it never arises at the same time other thoughts arise.

I'm very aware (ha!) that this is not the most common version of what awareness is in Buddhism. In fact, this verison of awareness is not usually acceptable to most western Buddhists, who seem to like to rely on hidden permanences. The commonly accepted version of "awareness" is that kind of thing - an "absolute truth" invented by mind to make us feel safe even though no such thing actually exists.
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Dream Walker, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 7:31 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
DW, I think the word "luminous" is very, very fuzzy. No one seems to be explain it so that it's sensible, so I find it to be pretty much useless in describing anything about existence and how we experience it. Personal preference, of course.
Well I give you a very clear definition: Luminious = The locational aspect of knowingness moves out to the location of the object.

Until someone convinces you otherwise why not adopt this definition?

Of course if you have not experienced this shift first hand, it sounds like a bunch of nonsense, but none the less, it is true. I can have someone you know chat about this with you if you wish.
Any other extra crap people add on top of that definition is just different perceptual shifts that I personally do not equate to the fundamental aspect of the definition.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 1:44 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.10

-I didn't really meditate today.  I have met with two different meditation coaches via skype in the past two weeks.  While both are certainly awesome practitioners and guides, I have been confronted with the fact that the most likely path forward for me will involve: a) formal sitting, b) a much longer timeline of progress (years and decades, not months), and c) some sort of retreat experience (which involves time, money, and planning).  In any case, in order for me to move further, I have doubts that it can occur through walking around, daily life practice alone (or at all, perhaps).  No matter what I do in meditation, it does seem to be the case that fundamental wisdom will not cure my self-absorption.  Other actions and attitudes are necessary for that.

-DN 1.18: Declares the meticulous debate of meditation to be outside the dhamma.  I find myself engaged in such inner and outer talk frequently.  In some sense, it is all wrong speech.

-This is the sense I get from listening to Than-Geoff's talks and reading the suttas:  The dhamma is about wisely working within conditions.  It is about taking things slow, and doing what you works for longer term happiness, even if it requires a bit of discipline in the short term.  Transcendental insight has an important place, but I would not relegate the other aspects of the dhamma to position of mere 'preperatory practices' alone.  Small things matter.  It matters that I have a cup of water by my bed, so I don't get dehydrated over night.  It matters that I set my heat to the correct temperature, so I can sleep well.  It matters that I make sure I get enough sleep, so that I take care of the body and mind.

One effect of crossing the a&p in 2011 for me has been that I have gotten more and more into the search for the hardcore spirituality. I have always envisioned a type of transcendence that is beyond conditions.  This has manifested as both an interest in law of attraction, as well as in meditation (and also in actualism).  In each of these pursuits, I am trying to do one thing, in excess, which will then supposedly cause everything else to work itself out.  I have even given others advice on these forums, to this end.  I believe that I have had a poor view of cause and effect in this regard.  Although both law of attraction and meditation (and even actualism) seemed to have worked to improve my life and my state of mind, it seems that there are certain core negative tendencies that remain.  It is clear that the extreme approach does not solve all of my problems.

The other fault with the extreme approach is that it is not grounded enough.  There is not routine.  There has not even been formal sitting.  I have tended to find unstructured methods that allow my energy to remain wild and undirected.  I have not trained myself to deal with the conditions right before my eyes.  I have preferred new age schools of thought that promise the end-result of controlling the world before my eyes.  This has affected my views of my career, dating, physical health, finances, and even psychology.  In all of these major areas, I have tried to leap frog through the steps of improvement.  The only time I have not leap frogged is in my work with Ron, although those conditions were admittedly undisciplined and an exception to the rule.
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 5:24 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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hi noah,
it sure sounds like you've been accumulating wisdom to me.

i know that there have been long stretches for me where progress was not at all obvious, mostly because of my own preconceptions of what progress was supposed to look like.  retreat progress, a daily sitting routine progress, an intellectual progress and a walking-around-integration progress are all types of progress.

retreats are notoriously complicated or costly to arrange but do provide the kind of progress you seem to long for at the moment.  the commited sitting practice is the next best thing in my case.  i happen to be in the very fortunate position, at the moment, that every sit is bliss and comfort and desireable, unless i want to vipasssanize it, which i usually do.

do you have aversion to sitting?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 5:55 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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tom:

do you have aversion to sitting?


yea :-/
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 6:58 AM
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why?  time constraints, environmental, or mental factors?  uncomfortable physically, mentally?  how long has this been so?

cheers

tom
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 1:13 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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tom moylan:
why?  time constraints, environmental, or mental factors?  uncomfortable physically, mentally?  how long has this been so?

cheers

tom
Mental factors.  For about eight years, since a diagnosis of a mood disorder.  It has gotten vastly better due to therapy, meditation, and probably just growing up/brain age.
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 1:45 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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got it..well you seem all growed up to me.  i will spare you some typing and browse your posts.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 2:33 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.11

-Repeating gratitude phrases: 'I am grateful to have a kitchen, I am grateful to have clean water'; 'I am grateful to have a job, I am grateful for the money that I make'; 'I am grateful to be physically healthy, I am grateful for shelter.'  Returning to these at random intervals throughout the day.  There is not an explicit goal in doing this.  I am just reminding myself.  This type of effort is always worthwhile, no matter how 'advanced' one is.  I am not trying to get a quick fix in transforming my mind.  

-Listening to Than-Geoff gives me the sense that sila training is very technical and specific.  I also get this from the sutta's, which are full of boundaries, limitations, and distinctions between this and that.  I sometimes think of revered Asian master meditators, particularly Tibetans, and how advanced their practice must be.  I will compare, in my mind, who is better than who, or what system is best.  Oddly, I never do this with morality.  It never occured to me that some Buddhist masters would be better at morality than others.  Some would have more self-knowledge, and efficacy with self-programming, on the levels of personality and conduct.  This seems to be an imbalance in my view.  Morality matters, and is a skill.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 4:52 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
12.11

-Repeating gratitude phrases: 'I am grateful to have a kitchen, I am grateful to have clean water'; 'I am grateful to have a job, I am grateful for the money that I make'; 'I am grateful to be physically healthy, I am grateful for shelter.'  Returning to these at random intervals throughout the day.  There is not an explicit goal in doing this.  I am just reminding myself.  This type of effort is always worthwhile, no matter how 'advanced' one is.  I am not trying to get a quick fix in transforming my mind.  
Probably a good idea in general.  I find it can be easy to spend much more time thinking about things I don't like than things I like.  The weather could be perfect, most chores done, a good meal in front of me, and I could easily find myself spending a lot of time thinking about a slightly sore pinky finger or some weeds still growing in the back forty than all the many things that are currently quite stellar in my life.   
-Eva
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 5:06 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Probably a good idea in general.  I find it can be easy to spend much more time thinking about things I don't like than things I like.  The weather could be perfect, most chores done, a good meal in front of me, and I could easily find myself spending a lot of time thinking about a slightly sore pinky finger or some weeds still growing in the back forty than all the many things that are currently quite stellar in my life.    
-Eva


Lolzz.  Aint that the truth.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 7:52 AM
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Noah, I want to commend you on your efforts, your dogged pursuit of a practice that suits you well and that will lead to a long term betterment of your situation.

... bow ...
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/12/15 11:02 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I realized recently one thing I do a lot of is pretty close to that Bare Awareness method.  Basically the way I see it, it is just practice looking at things objectively.  When you do it (at least the way I do it),  you need to separate experiences into the basic objective thing that is happening (for instance, I am running late for some event) and what kind of angst or other labels I am adding to it from myself (anxious, self judgements, good, bad, etc-often there are a number of them).  That way of thinking of things forces me to constantly look at situations from a more objective perspective and also causes me to observe my 'stuff' from a more objective perspective, which conveniently also helps me to step out of my stuff in order to observe.  Once you step out of your stuff, your stuff effects you less and less and it becomes more and more obvious on a grokking level that in general your stuff is the cause of suffering and that most of the time, the thing that is happening is just not a big deal at all and you start to really wonder why you were making it such a big deal!  I also did over time get a lot more insight into the psychological interactions and psychological 'causes' of my stuff.  I think you already do that kind of thing to an extent, I found it really interesting myself that there is a whole Buddhist method that is touted that is like that (if interested, please research the method a tad, I may not have it exactly right and/or my way of doing it might diverge from the 'official' way)   

Personally I am not at all convinced that enlightenment needs to be super technical or take eons.  I have read about  some enlightened ones that do not take any such path and still make it.  I remember one, I think he was in India, that would wave off any strong tendencies towards 'concepts' when his students talked.  He did want his students thinking about concepts, just doing some straightforward ways of thinking that worked.  There are a number of teachers that seem to warn against too many concepts as just causing more and more thoughts to spin around while the goal of the game is supposed to be quieting the mind, not spinning it around with millions more thoughts about concepts. So the idea was to avoid tangling the mind too much in concepts. 

Personally I am a big fan of the idea that if you can find and understand a problem well enough and/or find the right tool to apply to that problem, progress on that problem can be fairly fast. 

As for things you are doing that you want to stop doing, eating junk food, video games, etc.  A part of you says you don't want to do that.  But obviously another part of you does want to do those things, else you would not being doing them.  So you are not unified in wants.  IMO, you might get some traction if you explore more the parts of you that do want to do those things and what you might be getting out of them.  For instance, if you are too hard driving on yourself, a part of you might want some relief from that hard driving demanding attitude.  (this is something I realized about myself, not sure if applies to you).  Avoidance of things can yield relief from fear of success/fear of failure anxiety, if you are not trying to do anything, then those anxieties lessen.  But if you are able to lessen those anxieties that are driving the avoidance, then I think you will find that the urge to avoid becomes much much less.  But if you just self judge yourself even more for being 'lazy,' that can actually make things worse sometimes, maybe just piling more self judgement on top of the self judgement causing the anxiety that is driving the avoidance for instance.  

I have personally come to suspect there is no such thing as 'lazy,' as we commonly conceive of it.  I think more likely there are anxieties and emotions and thoughts that get cause log jams and lack of action or avoidance is how people deal with them or lessen them.  If you straighten out the tangles in the mind, then inaction disappears on its own.  Sort it out enough and there is no longer inner conflict, IMO, another word IMO for enlightenment at higher levels, you act efficiently in your environment without inner conflict and energy is no longer wasted on inner conflict.  

Also to be fair, for the vast majority of us regular folk who still have inner conflict at times, a certain amount of down time is probably healthy and needed for us to recharge mentally so it's probably wise to calculate a REASONABLE amount of that into each day without negative self judgement.   
-Eva
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/12/15 7:47 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Cool stuff, Eva:

-I like the idea of working skillfully with the inner council, ala Than-Geoff.. seems to be the direction I am heading in, rather than depending on insight meditation alone

-Totally agree that self-judgement can drive 'laziness'... finding a place on nonresistance seems to be an important aspect of the complete approach

-Excellent definition of higher levels of enlightenment... I am moving towards a conduct-based definition myself
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 12/12/15 11:55 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Cool stuff, Eva:

-I like the idea of working skillfully with the inner council, ala Than-Geoff.. seems to be the direction I am heading in, rather than depending on insight meditation alone
I am not an expert on Than-Geoff but so far I've found him easy to relate to in general for the stuff I have read of him.  His takes on things seem very down to Earth and practical and somehow he manages to do it without stomping too hard on any toes either.  I had not read any of his stuff on the inner council but just now found a tad of it in one of  his lectures.  Yeah, sounds about right to me.  One thing I've really noticed is when all the 'mes' all agree, then life feels free and easy, the more the better.   

-Totally agree that self-judgement can drive 'laziness'... finding a place on nonresistance seems to be an important aspect of the complete approach
I suspect now that all serious laziness is caused by unresolved conflict, otherwise unless the body is truly tired, it's probably a natural state to be doing something either mentally or physically.  Of course, there is also the issue that some call 'laziness' as being whenever one is not doing something 'gainful' but that can kind of make it like all of life must be work related and that's farther than I would go.  I expect that enlightened people probably still enjoy a walk in the garden for instance.  Anyway, Buddhism is said to be the middle way and IMO that means reasonable work life balance.  


-Excellent definition of higher levels of enlightenment... I am moving towards a conduct-based definition myself
  I suspect to some extent conduct is related to habit.  They say if you do the same thing every day I think it was like for something like 10 days, then it becomes a habit and it's easier to do each day.  So the suggestion is to just do it very diligently every day at first to get it set up as a habit.  
But on the flip side, I suspect conduct is usually mostly a symptom of the mental state.  I suspect either they do what they want to do in a straightforward way or they will end up doing it in a less obvious way.  Like if someone has aggressive tendencies or tendencies towards wanting conflict with others you might see outright violence or you might see passive aggressive behavior and other behaviors that lead to arguing.  But either way that desire to create conflict is going to leak out somehow.  That's why I am not a fan of 'right path' if it's taken in isolation of other things or if there is a lot of emphasis there but not much development in other areas.  You could easily get a kind of moralizing finger pointing type person for instance (although I don't think that would seem likely in your case to happen). 

But I think the point is that if some behavior is merely a form of bad habit, then the bad habit would probably be easy to break because there would not be much behind it other than habit.  But if there is unresolved conflict behind the behavior, I suspect the way to take the power out of the behavior is to resolve the conflict.  Perhaps on the flip side though, in some cases maybe forcing the behavior may help bring the conflict out of the woodwork so you can see it better?

Kind of reminds me of a story I heard from one of the Buddhist speakers on youtube, he told the story of how someone wanted to give him $100.00 and he said no because monks aren't supposed to get paid, so the person than told him to think of something worth about $100.00 and he woudl buy it for him.  So the monk thought about it and soon had a long list of things he might want and it was sort of driving him crazy and finally he said no to the gift because the offer was proliferating wants and uneasy thoughts.  The thing is, that monk was not used to having money and was kinda weak in dealing with its allures (IMO).  The monk life is great, IMO, for sheltering the mind to allow certain things to develop but IMO even better is if you have truly dealt with and can be safely exposed to various temptations and not actually get sucked in.  So IMO the avoidance technique or forced regimental technique has its limits long term for the ultimate goal.  

Anyway, not sure where I am really going with this and not that I think that attempts at better self control are bad or not useful either, guess I am just kinda rambling and trying to organize my thoughts on this issue but not totally succeeding..   
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 7:53 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Bill Hamilton, Isolated-Monolithic-Wisdom-Development, and Dhamma

In Saints & Psychopaths, Bill Hamilton talks about his relationships with Ram Das, Joya Ma, and others who are either Hindu gurus, or students of Hindu gurus.  I have a little direct experience with these types of traditions and teachers, more second-hand knowledge of them (through parents and other older practitioners), and mostly academic knowledge.  The Hindu and yogic traditions, as practiced in the West, are less organized than Buddhism.  There is no strict moral code (agreed upon by all Hindu and yogic teachers).  Even in ancient Asia, there was no central, moral code or map of how to live.  Instead, there have been many conflicting sects throughout time (i.e ritual Vedism vs hardcore asceticism vs yogi-householder lifestyle).  Buddhism could be seen as one of these sects that arose, and had some of the most success in staying organized and spreading throughout the world.  I think there is a reason for this, which I will get to later.

But back to modern-day Hindu/yogic practices in the West.  My direct experience tells me that many Westerners engaged in these practices have the idea of an enlightenment which transcends conditions in a certain way.  This is in contrast with the traditional Buddhist view of elightenment, which is that conditions are first mastered (through concentration and morality), and continue to be worked with in a masterful way, even after enlightenment.  In other words, proper enlightenment within Buddhism involves the conscious choice to continue to engage in morality and concentration practices, even after wisdom has become embedded.  This is suggested throughout the suttas.  Otherwise, monks would have been disrobing left and right after finishing "what need[ed] to be done" (every sutta ever). 

While not being present in Buddhism, this idea IS totally present in Hinduism and yoga.  The greatest yogic masters of the 1700 and 1800's were these wandering forest ascetics who were famous for the irrational and crazy behavior (check out stories of Bhagawan Nityananda or anything from Autobiography of a Yogi).  They were bums who just wandered around with no structure.  They pumped out lots of shakti, and helped people get various types of enlightenment, but there was no common pattern to the morality advice they gave to others, or the moral codes they practiced themselves.  They were NOT immoral, its just that there was no STRUCTURE to the morality.  These are the types of people who Ram Das, Joya Ma, and others, were idolizing.

Saints & Psychopaths is chock full of a view that assumes there is one kind of enlightenment since there is one, basic structure to the human mind.  For instance, Bill Hamilton writes about his participation in the Snowmass Contemplative Group (p. 56), which is dedicated to exploring the commonalities to mystical experiences from all religions.  Interestingly, Shinzen Young, who was good friends with Bill, also teaches in this way.  On page 57, BIll writes that "contemplatives from different traditions generally agree that there is a transforming experience that they agree to call enlightenment."  Establishing this view, he goes on to talk about "perceptual thresholds" (p. 58), and eventually, the four path model (p. 63).  So he presents the four path model as one which dilineates certain stages that are built into human-genetic-potential, basically.  They are completely naturalistic, and are based primarily on changes in perception, in his argument.  

There are two aspects of this that I wish to argue against here.  One is that wisdom training is completely secular, has only to do with what occurs in meditation, is completely predictable or lab-testable across the human species, does not have to do with conduct, etc.  The other is that the goal of all esoteric religions/forms of spirituality is the same.  

One of the main recurring themes that I am discovering in the suttas is that the Buddha makes skillful distinctions between the Dhamma and other systems/practices, skillful quetions/views vs unskillful questions/views,  etc.  Another theme is that of the 'graduated discourse' which drills home the idea of the interconnectedness of the trainings.  Enlightenment is entrained with the deliverance of the heart through good will.  One jhana leads intricately into another through the noticing of certain things and the dropping of others.  Psychic powers are inseperable from path attainments, which are inseperable from the cosmological view which is supposed to be taught in the beginning.  This is all very precisely outlined, again and again.

I do not think it is possible to isolate one aspect of the Theravadan training and assume that the essence of the Buddha's message is preserved.  Furthermore, I do not think that one aspect of the Theravadan training is supposed to work on its own.  In fact, I would argue that it is supposed to fail!  I have discovered this through personal experience lately.

I would also argue that Bill Hamilton's view on enlightenment and its relation to (or the lack thereof) morality and concentration is probably heavily based on the years he spent interacting with Hindu gurus and their students.  This isn't good, bad, right or wrong, its just different from what the Buddha taught.

I have tried really hard to go the route of the isolated training which will make me into a charasmatic forest ascetic who needs no rules and earns income through siddhis.  Not surprisingly, this hasn't worked.  I think the Buddha's instructions are much more realistic.

I have also tried taking an approach to morality which is "just follow common sense... be high-functioning, disciplined, kind, hard-working, etc."  I do not ascribe to this idea any longer; that there is some down-to-earth, built-in, common-sense way of living effectively that secular people just grokk all the time.  I have searched long and hard for it.  Instead, I am of the opinion no such thing exists, and that living effectively requires a system of rules and principles, and that this set can not be separated from the set which leads to Buddhist awakening.  Furthermore, Buddhist awakening and morality are just one option, among many, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I am not bashing pragmatic dharma here.  The point of pragmatic dharma is individual empowerment, and following good instructions.  These attitudes are wonderful and necessary cultural adjustments to the Mushroom contingency.  I am not bashing Bill Hamilton either.  I have benefited directly from his work by taking meditation instruction in what is essentially his lineage.  It has changed my life for the better in ways that I would not have dreamed of, as little as three years ago.  

Instead of bashing these things, I would like to suggest an improvement to them.  Instead of pragmat dharma (with its isolated trainings), I would argue for apragmatic graduated discourse.  Why not assume that all of the Buddha's instructions are designed to work as written on the label?  Especially when powered by things like fast progress through Mahasi noting!  

Modern people talk about how technology, Western psychology and neurosis, family life, football and Seinfeld, all mean that the precepts are dated and that meditation is the essence of Buddhism that will continue into the future.  Yet there is advice all over the suttas for how to live life.  Most of it can be adapted, by a deductive mind, into modern forms and modern means of action.  People have been doing this again and again for the past 2500 years.  

Besides, what if the Buddha's cosmology was right?  What if this whole world before our eyes truly was an illusion?  Not on a perceptual level, but on all levels?  What if there was a risk of waking up in a hungry ghost loka tomorrow?  That would make merit more relevant.
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 8:57 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 8:57 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hi Noah,
keep going.

fyi - i, for one, accept (irrationally perhaps) that there are other realms of existence than the one we are presently enjoying, or not.

cheers

tom
Chad Atlas, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 12:18 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 12:16 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 9 Join Date: 2/17/14 Recent Posts
Noah:

Instead of bashing these things, I would like to suggest an improvement to them.  Instead of pragmat dharma (with its isolated trainings), I would argue for apragmatic graduated discourse.  Why not assume that all of the Buddha's instructions are designed to work as written on the label?  Especially when powered by things like fast progress through Mahasi noting!
Noah, 

First, thanks for this thread and the other thread in which you're documenting your practice-based exploration of the Pali Canon.  I'm a long-time DhO lurker, and your helpful and inspiring practice logs have finally encouraged me to post.  As a bit further background, I'm also a fellow student of Ron's, and I presumptuously gauge by some of your comments that we're working through some of the same struggles on the path. 

In response to your quote above, my personal experience in working with Ron and on the path -- which, I suppose, is the sort of training your talking about here -- has naturally given rise to a sort-of graduated discourse.  Recently, I too find myself (in part through your inspiration) drawn to the suttas and other more traditional resources.  In my most recent meeting with Ron, he was talking about digging into the original Pali version of the Abhidhamma.  Daniel, in his response to you in the other thread, mentioned his latest audiobook readings of the Pali Canon.  Setting aside any concerns about attainments or one's specific progress along a map, there seems to be a natural gravity toward these original dhamma teachings that emerge from a "pragmatic dharma" practice.  

I personally worked my way up quickly through the initial paths without doing anything other than noting, about as isolated a training as you can get.  My off-the-mat stuff already was pretty together -- so I was lucky in that regard I suppose -- and wasn't as concerned about first getting my morality trip together (as I think Daniel called it).  But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that if the instructions were not as clear, isolated, and essentially simple as "note, and you'll wake up," then I likely would not have been drawn to this type of practice at all.  

Still, as you and anybody who has engaged in this practice can attest, it's transformative -- whether you like it or not -- in really unimaginable ways.  I never got the sense from Ron or Daniel or what I've read from Kenneth or Bill that the Buddha's teachings were unimportant.  Rather, I tend to conceptualize the "pragmatic" part of pragmatic dharma in terms of the original pragmatism of the teachings, it's all about dukkha and ending dukka, the rest is just details.  

In sum, based on your posts, I think your current practice seems strong, and I hope you will continue (and continue sharing).  As far as the "graduated discourse" idea, I'm less certain that it isn't already baked into the program -- even if that aspect seems hidden by the suppsoedly "isolated" trainings at the outset.  None of this stuff is isolated. 

Thanks again for your work here, Noah. 


 



  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 12:54 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 12:54 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Chad,

Thanks for posting!  I love hearing from other people who have benefited from Ron and Kenneth's skype coaching.  I like everything that you said, even if it feels different from what I am saying here.  My views obviously change all the time, so I'm not going to argue for them to staunchly yet.  Thats the point of the sandbox.

I guess the main difference in our experience would be that you had your morality trip together before working with Ron.  I'm doing that work now, after completing my work with Ron.  So for me, morality is sort of a big deal, and I'm looking towards the Pali Canon to provide structure that I lack.  But I also think that the conceputal frameworks of merit, rebirth and Buddhist cosmology can be used as skillful means for even the most high-functioning, secular practitioners.  They have big ramifications for things like generosity and the precepts.  I did not spend much time talking with Ron about these things, but that does not mean he does not talk about them with others.  The most important thing is that what Ron is doing WORKS, and he is as honest and down-to-earth as they come.

I must admit that it is likely that I will eventually find a balance between all of these extreme views.

Cheers,
Noah
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Dream Walker, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 1:52 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 1:43 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Why not assume that all of the Buddha's instructions are designed to work as written on the label? 
Hmmm,
Problematic here.... Buddhas instructions? or the Pali cannon? which part? all of it? part of it? just the parts we like?

Do instructions for celibate monks apply to householders? All rules, some rules? which ones? Who decides?

Was Buddha an infallible god like awakened being? Was he even a prince? Was he just some smart dude 2000 years ago that was forced to administrate a bunch of typical petty people who insisted that he come up with rules so that they could stop being such assholes to each other and thus a codified working "moral system" was created?
*Shrug* emoticon
I still equate all morality as "don't be an asshole" or on optimistic days "Be excellent to each other".
Though I do not really like to make Buddhism into a religion but thats my damage..
~D

Edit: How nice is Buddhism??? Interesting read -
Nice Buddhism - David Chapman
Now the problem is, traditional Buddhism doesn’t actually have anything distinctively useful to teach Westerners about ethics. There’s no single ethical system in Buddhism; it has a slew of contradictory half-systems. Worse, they are mostly quite conservative, often downright horrid, unacceptable to Westerners, and overall no better than the narrow Christianity the hippies rebelled against.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 6:17 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 6:17 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Dream Walker:
Noah:
Why not assume that all of the Buddha's instructions are designed to work as written on the label? 
Hmmm,
Problematic here.... Buddhas instructions? or the Pali cannon? which part? all of it? part of it? just the parts we like?

Do instructions for celibate monks apply to householders? All rules, some rules? which ones? Who decides?

Was Buddha an infallible god like awakened being? Was he even a prince? Was he just some smart dude 2000 years ago that was forced to administrate a bunch of typical petty people who insisted that he come up with rules so that they could stop being such assholes to each other and thus a codified working "moral system" was created?
*Shrug* emoticon
I still equate all morality as "don't be an asshole" or on optimistic days "Be excellent to each other".
Though I do not really like to make Buddhism into a religion but thats my damage..
~D

Edit: How nice is Buddhism??? Interesting read -
Nice Buddhism - David Chapman
Now the problem is, traditional Buddhism doesn’t actually have anything distinctively useful to teach Westerners about ethics. There’s no single ethical system in Buddhism; it has a slew of contradictory half-systems. Worse, they are mostly quite conservative, often downright horrid, unacceptable to Westerners, and overall no better than the narrow Christianity the hippies rebelled against.
Yo D,

Do you think fundamental compassion is a thing?  Like wisdom-compassion, two-sides, one coin?  That seems like it ties all this insight technology up with Brahma Viharas and morality.  I don't know.
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Dream Walker, modified 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 6:48 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/17/15 6:48 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Yo D,

Do you think fundamental compassion is a thing?  Like wisdom-compassion, two-sides, one coin?  That seems like it ties all this insight technology up with Brahma Viharas and morality.  I don't know.
I think at sufficiently advanced levels the fact that there is no longer boundaries separating a "you" from "others" would necessitate some kind of transformation that people might term fundemental compassion. Until that point we can choose to work on that quality the good old fashioned way, like any other trait good or bad....do it lots and it becomes second nature.

Now, are there examples of people who are advanced and show little to no compassion externally? Yes.
What that says about how they relate to themselves and therefore others when there is no longer a difference between....well thats another question.
So how fundemental is compassion? I like to think that without a certain level of compassion inherent to the person, they will fail to acheive the higher levels of awakening, at some level they top out as the very boundaries they have that keep them from loving/compassion for themselves/others are the same boundaries that must go for progression. This may be wishful thinking but it sounds good.
~D
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 7:57 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/11/15 7:38 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Well I give you a very clear definition: Luminious = The locational aspect of knowingness moves out to the location of the object. 


What is "knowingness?" That word, too, sounds fuzzy to me.

There's a tendency for practitioners to use certain language, maybe because it gets picked up in dharma books and other places like podcasts. I think it's used honestly and well meaningly much of the time, but it can keep concepts unclear and ill defined. It can also be used to effectively obfuscate, to replace detailed, realistic, simpler phenomenological descriptions of experience and how we process that.

I used to have a very locked in belief system around words like "rigpa" and "luminous." But time and a lot of further practice have helped me see that I had more to investigate, to see for myself, beliefs to drill into and drop, many of them picked up from reading or listening to someone else's experience and adopting that rather than investigating for myself. There is a lot of confusion about this that I think is well worth exploring. Never accept anything on belief.


emoticon
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 6:38 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 6:38 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I think that you are asking about the implications of all of this, when you say, "what does it mean"? 

Actually, I was still trying to get you to explain what you mean when you use the word "luminous."  emoticon
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 6:57 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/10/15 6:57 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
I think that you are asking about the implications of all of this, when you say, "what does it mean"? 

Actually, I was still trying to get you to explain what you mean when you use the word "luminous."  emoticon

Darn.  Did I do it?
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bernd the broter, modified 7 Years ago at 3/9/17 8:06 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/30/15 7:13 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Noah:
Some musings on views, actualism, and metta:

[...]
I used to think of metta as a muscle, just like concentration.  Now I'm wondering if metta is almost like a drug, or a dream about how the world should be.  Something that slowly creeps into your mind and reprograms the way you truly want things to be.  I think of the movie, Inception, here. 

If my 'inner council' (as in, the Than-Geof phraseology) is in disarray, I can not do metta or concentration.  This defeats the muscle metaphor, which relies on the fact that you can force yourself to work out, regardless of your inner state.  Metta and concentration both have to work with the inner council, slowly either winning over votes or at least convincing the negative nancies to abstain for awhile.  If even one of the 12 angry men remain in their state of indignance, the process will not proceed. [...]
I disagree. I will define Metta as "repeat Metta phrases". You can do that no matter what else is floating around in your mind. This may be quite inefficient (and even stupid), but it works.

It won't build up any remarkable amount of concentration, but luckily that isn't needed for the Metta practice to have an effect.

This is a really nice property of Metta. Metta just does its job.
It's even more reliable than 50 year old cobol/fortran software.
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bernd the broter, modified 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 7:00 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 7:00 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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@Noah:
So far I haven't commented on this because I basically feel too unqualified regarding Vipassana (still below MCTB 2nd path).
But I agree with Chris that your commentary on Vipassana sounds very confusing to me. We may simply have completely different vocabulary, but the difference is so large that it's hard to believe. Some examples:

Noah says
"Con: I won’t know how conventional areas of my life have been positively affected until after each path shift"
Chris says
"what happened to me is that I came to understand the process of perception, how it works, why, and how it causes ignorance (dukkha)."
This completely baffles me. It's called insight meditation (for a reason), but you claim that you basically didn't get any insights into anything, but still got its (almost?)-final goal.
Also, these insights come before path shifts. Lots, maybe even most of them. And they have consequences before the path shifts. This has always been completely self-evident for me (already before I knew about SE), but you seem to deny it. dafuq?

This is important because a number of texts (particuarly those within the Mahamudra traditions) talk about further levels of enlightenment, and I could somewhat reasonable guestimate the amount and type of effort it might take to reach these levels; in other words, I have a very clear plan of attack
LOL. You still believe that you direct the process? This looks like a massive not-realization of Anatta and the basic principles of the whole Path, and I'm not sure if my impression might even be correct.

Another advantage is that I can tell exactly what the path shifts have done for me, positively, which is that they have reporgrammed certain processes of sensory input to match a wider range of phenomena.  Translated, I'm simply less bipolar, have less of a range of both negative and positive emotion, and feel more realistically grounded all the time.
Everything you write about the effects sounds less like insight meditation effects and more like therapy of conventional self-improvement. You don't even give lip service to the fact that this path is universally assumed to be about LIBERATION. The word doesn't even appear in this giant collection of wall-of-texts. Not once! (Nor in your previous practice logs if I searched correctly.)

Then there's the fact that you have very limited retreat experience. (IIRC you did one, and on that you were quite overwhelmed by basic hindrances?)

Based on all of that, I totally can't see what criteria Ron used to give you 3rd or 4th path medal, let alone SE.
Maybe the bipolar thing somehow explains all of this divergence, but I'm nonetheless completely baffled.
subconscious inductive reasoning
whatever that is, it sounds real neat.
Pro: integrates each area of my life under one effort/method, addresses all problems at once
Pro: outcome promises immediate change to motivations and behaviors

[...]
I can also not deny that even 3 months of intensive experimentation with the actualism method have not given me unique and discrete contemplative advances.
Something doesn't quite fit here, right?
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 1/3/17 9:43 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 11:47 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Bernd,

Also, these insights come before path shifts. Lots, maybe even most of them. And they have consequences before the path shifts.


In my experience, the 'insights' that come from each nana do have conceptual/analytical manifestations, but they are just side effects of the deeper physio-energetic transformation that is occuring.  The reason I think this is because the conceptual stuff has all gone away for me, while the way I feel, on a visceral level, has stayed.  Its not like I'm permanently musing on impermanence and emptiness.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.  

Also, I didn't personally get lasting or permanent consequences from any any nana other than 4 (which for me involved something concerning an increased presence of faith and an obsession with spirituality), and obviously the path moments.  The other 'insights' wore off along with their corresponding cutting-edge afterglows.  I do think the nanas do something to the energetic system to prepare it for cessation and fruition, but I didn't detect any stable change in my baseline until after stream entry.


LOL. You still believe that you direct the process? This looks like a massive not-realization of Anatta and the basic principles of the whole Path, and I'm not sure if my impression might even be correct.


Yeah I think surrender and skillful means are two sides of the same coin, and while the critical shifts come from grace, the work to get there best occurs through some hardcore boot strapping.  Do you know about "Clarifying the Natural State"?  These books/general approaches to Mahamudra are super goal oriented and unfold in stages similar to a fractal model.  

As further evidence supporting the idea of being able to estimate the amount of time and effort it might take to attain to certain stages, I would cite the presence of specific retreat schedules within Tibetan Buddhism, and the rigorous way they switch from one visualization to another in the beginning, which I got from Tenzin Palmo's memoir.  Also this interesting lecture by a lama who guides a women's retreat center in Tibet seems to be teeming with a goal orientation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG-RiTO3vjY).  While I don't think a goal orientation automatically means that 'you control the process', I do think it hints at it.

Everything you write about the effects sounds less like insight meditation effects and more like therapy of conventional self-improvement. You don't even give lip service to the fact that this path is universally assumed to be about LIBERATION. The word doesn't even appear in this giant collection of wall-of-texts. Not once! (Nor in your previous practice logs if I searched correctly.)


Yeah, we just have different paradigms concerning meditation.  I take a more agnostic/skeptical approach in saying that I don't know for sure, what the main mechanism is.  All I know for sure is what the direct effects on my experience have been, and I have made certain assumptions about the positive side effects from that.  I would guess that its my focus on the way the positive side effects make me feel better that seems most like therapy/self-improvement.

Then there's the fact that you have very limited retreat experience. (IIRC you did one, and on that you were quite overwhelmed by basic hindrances?)

Yeah that bothered me for a long time too, as I didn't feel "legit."  Ron didn't believe that the progress of insight could be completed off the cushion until the third or so time meeting with me.  The bottom line is that when I noted out loud for him, the things that were manifesting in my experience were obviously the nanas, as lots of other people experience them.  While I didn't do any retreats, I did note almost all the time, from morning until night, in a somewhat distracted way, for almost two years.  So it still makes sense based on an overall net amount of effort, in my opinion.

Based on all of that, I totally can't see what criteria Ron used to give you 3rd or 4th path medal, let alone SE.
Maybe the bipolar thing somehow explains all of this divergence, but I'm nonetheless completely baffled.


I think the primary thing that is drawing your attention right now is the lack of traditional outlook on a conceptual level, which also effects my word choice.  I have always liked the idea of a physio-energetic model best.  Or maybe something from AYP.  My general point is that I feel different, but I can't explain why exactly.  To paraphrase Bill Hamilton on shooting for stream entry: "Highly reccomend it, can't quite say why."

Something doesn't quite fit here, right?


My bad, I hit a double negative in the third line you quoted.  Take that out and it fits.

 
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 1/3/17 9:41 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 11/24/15 11:59 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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@Bernd:

I wanted to add something in relation to your comment about retreat time: there is this youtube interview with a person on 'conscious tv' or something, where he talks about the cliche of a Western meditator who has been sitting for two or three decades with hard progress.  He says the answer is to sit smarter and not more.  I would generalize this to my approach which was to meditate in daily life, which was probably the smartest thing for me at the life stage.
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 4:25 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 4:21 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey,

Something you might find helpful is to consider how much you're trying to control how you feel vs. how much you're listening to how you feel.  The way you write about your practice has a very intentional, codified, strong, willful quality - even when you write about observing how you feel, it's from a detached (and therefore, strong) perspective.  In order to actually feel good, it requires not feeling bad which means you have to allow yourself to make the value judgement - the way I'm feeling now isn't how I want to feel - and find some way to make real change.  I think this is a kind of weakness to a vipassana-oriented ideology.  If you can't integrate these bad feelings, or you can't become equanimous towards them, or however you want to put it - that's a failure.  The honest-to-goodness truth is, though, bad feelings feel bad, and being equanimous towards them doesn't change that.  If you know they're bad, and you don't want to keep feeling them, then instead of trying to integrate them, or become indifferent to them or somehow immune to them, seek out why they're there and get rid of that cause.

When I was doing a lot of thinking about this, the aha moment for me was realizing that it's impossible to escape conditioned existance.  It's impossible to keep living if you stop eating, or walk into a fire, or bleed yourself dry, or live somewhere that's always 120 degrees.  Actually, considering the vast possibilities of environments the universe could throw at us, we are actually living within a very thin (razor thin, you might say) habitable zone.  Why should we consider our mental health somehow different?  The equivalent to vipassana training for the body would be to stay equanimous after putting your hand on a hot stove rather than removing it and vowing never to touch hot things again.  Not putting you hand on a hot stove would be "avoidant" or not-acknowledging the inevitability of bad things happening.  Obviously this sounds stupid with these examples, but then turn around and sit there trying to accept, integrate, or become equanimous towards an anxiety attack and tell me it isn't the same thing.

So I see it in kind of a two-fold way.  There are ways to expand the "habitable zone" of the happy/content mind, which is what vipassana is good for, but this does nothing to keep a person out of the "uninhabitable zones" like the martian landscape of anxiety or the sulfer pits of anger.  We can't ever live there physically, and when we go there mentally, our first goal should be to GTFO before we hurt ourselves!  Really, all this requires is a bit of common sense to decide which moments belong to which category, along with a geniune interest in being happy and the decision to place that ahead of personal ideology.  I've sat in a chair suffering from needless emotional distress just for the sake of the practice, and I'm sure most people on this forum have too, considering all the talk about dark nights.  This is all just stubborn zealotry, though.

Anyway, my rant aside, I think you might find more success being less mystical about all this and just ask yourself how you feel and why.  If you're sitting in an empty room trying to be happy, yet you're bored out of your mind, don't accept the boredom or try to pick apart the feeling, just say, "god, I'm bored, why is that?" and figure it out.  That's how I see Actualism, anyway.

BTW, did you ever see this post: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5762356? I was writing it as a response to you in your journal, but didn't want to start a conversation and derail your thread.  It's actually a good continuation of this post.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 1:02 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 1:01 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Quick note about vipassana practice -- it is not meant to alter experience. Rather, it is meant to be an investigation of experience. You can use vipassana practice, as some here do, to understand your experience and then use that knowledge to try to change your experience, but the change your experience part is distinctly different and not part of the original vipassana practice. I am not making any value judgements here but I would like to make sure vipassana is criticized for what is is, not for what it is not  :-)
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Not Tao, modified 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 7:20 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 7:20 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I disagree that vipassana is an investigation of experience.  It's descibed that way, but most of the techniques I've seen called vipassana (noting, dwelling as the watcher, body scanning) are taking a specific stance towards experience, a kind of active modification of the reactionary insticts.  It's a strong position that reframes all experience as equally valid - equally worth an investment of time.  In order to become a happier person, you can't see all experience as valid, you will need to see some experiences as better than others and actively cultivate those better experiences.  To me, this is more qualified to be called "investigation" than simply watching experience pass without judgement.  Vipassana can be practiced in any state of mind, happiness and contentment IS a state of mind.  This doesn't necessarily have to be in conflict, but the way Noah is describing both trying to remain equanimous while also trying to alter his mood does seem to be in conflict.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/5/15 8:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/5/15 8:22 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I disagree that vipassana is an investigation of experience.  It's descibed that way, but most of the techniques I've seen called vipassana (noting, dwelling as the watcher, body scanning) are taking a specific stance towards experience, a kind of active modification of the reactionary insticts.

I'm happy to agree to disagree on this emoticon
pieva, modified 2 Years ago at 11/2/21 8:37 AM
Created 2 Years ago at 11/2/21 8:37 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Not Tao
most of the techniques I've seen called vipassana (noting, dwelling as the watcher, body scanning) are taking a specific stance towards experience, a kind of active modification of the reactionary insticts. 

It's been a long time since this discussion, but I might not be the last person to read it.

I haven't advanced much in my practice, but I still remember what we had been taught in the 1st class. Yes, Vipassana is about modification of the reactionary instincts. You come across something negative, you consciously register what it is, you perceive that you don't like it, you have some unplesant bodily sensation and then you react to it with aversion. In the whole string it is the last bit, the reaction with aversion that you try to cut out.

Not Tao
In order to become a happier person, you can't see all experience as valid, you will need to see some experiences as better than others and actively cultivate those better experiences.

You shouldn't try to change your perception. If you don't like it, you notice that you don't like it. Negative experience is a perfectly valid experience. Afterall, you are trying to see things as they are.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 11:29 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.18

-Thought #1: Richard of the Actual Freedom Trust once asked me if I realized that my experience of meditation "exists in a vacuum," meaning that it is not based on an established religious or spiritual tradition.  This is somehow related to my experiment with the Pali canon.  I am attempting to establish some ground in traditional Buddhism, to combat some of the ambiguity I am experiencing in my life right now (new city, social isolation, no clear spiritual goal, etc.).  This isn't good or bad, it just is.

I realize now, that after my attempt at actualist practice over the course of a few months (which was basically a failure, although I did stay more true to it than most), an attempt to 'keep going' with insight practice, albeit without a direct teacher (which basically turned into a form of dissociative affism, I think), and an attempt to re-associate with traditional Buddhism (which I am not with, yet, btw), that my answer to Richard would be "I don't care at all."

I acknowledge that real Buddhism has to do with renunciation, generosity, the precepts, etc.  I acknowledge that real Buddhism intertwines conduct and wisdom in a seemingly inseperable way.  I acknowledge that isolated wisdom training is not real Buddhism.  But, it has worked to improve my life, and therefore, meets my "bottom line", for all of this.  This brings me to:

-Thought #2: The thing that I do care about is 'self help that actually works', to paraphrase Dan Harris.  Here are the four forms of self-help that have actually made a difference in my life.  By 'difference,' I mean permanent/terminal changes through a patterned effort leading to a reliable/consistent result (NOT a daily, renewed, temporary positive effect with the hope that it will snowball over time-- I have never had anything abstractly snowball in my life, and I hate this 'gradual' attitude towards self help):
          1) EMDR therapy- In the form of RADICALLY weakening various phobias and negative emotional patterns
          2) real life "exposure"- i.e. doing things I am afraid of will eventually cause me to mature beyond that fear 
          3) "path attainments"- intensive insight practice leading to irreversible shifts in perceptual experience... I don't give a fuck what we label them, or how they relate to the traditional or even pragmatic/hardcore definitions-- I have no pride about this, only a thirst for relief
          4) law of attraction- the magickal, and directly-causal tendency of the thoughts, emotions and beliefs that you HOLD in your awareness, with consistency and longevity, to slowly manipulate the conditions of your reality to mirror themselves, over a period of months and years (not days and weeks)-- this has only worked for me when paired with confidence and conceptual understanding--- this is specifically NOT 'auto-suggestion' or 'placebo'-- it is also not the type of magick that involves intense concetration or ritual
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 11:56 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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-Thought #3: Related to the above, here are some things that I am engaged in that I hope I will be able to tack onto the list of forms of 'self help that actually work':
          1) Qigong/physio-energetic exercises to build calmness- specifically, horse stance for a long time, every day, and holding my mind in my lower dan tien for a long time, every day
          2) Lots of samatha meditation, every day, in a formal posture (once I develop the mental patience and physical flexibility)
          3) further "path attainments"- listening to Reggie Ray's "Mahamudra for the Modern World"... plus I had two skype consultations with an advanced student of Mahamudra who guided me into a state that was incredibly powerful and potentially beyond the meditation I have experienced thus far--- the consensus does seem to be (with teachers and practitioners that I respect) that whatever lies beyond 'technical 4th path' in terms of the wisdom axis, can be found in Mahamudra
          4) Two daily life practices involving mantra: gratitude and goodwill-- hoping this will recondition my mind to have less stress-oriented reactions on a cognitive-emotional level

-Thought #4: Related to my criticism of the 'gradual' approach... a type of self help that has not worked is artificially and willfully trying to live a balanced lifestyle, i.e. have a good job, eat well, exercise, have a relationship, a circle of friends, a creative outlet, and a spiritual outlet, and everything will be okay... My current take on 'balance' is that it is something that people do naturally when they are already healthy and integrated at an energetic-subconscious level.  It is not something that is possible to artificially construct, even through the use of the law of attraction.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/19/15 11:21 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/19/15 11:21 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.19

Guided Mahamudra experience:

Okay so I was listening to Reggie Ray's guided meditation on the Mahamudra entry protocol (which is part of his epic, 37 hour Mahamudra audio course), and had a powerful experience.  The instructions basically involve lots of smart, little adjustments to posture, and well-timed visualizations that really activate things quickly.  I felt the 'central channel' of my spine open up as a 4 foot wide column with either no air, or only subtle air flowing through it.  It felt like this flow WAS one in the same with 'me', which is awareness, and that this awareness was the same thing in the inside and external worlds.  I also noticed that purposeful thinking seemed too gross and somehow annoying in this state... or that thoughts are somehow dualistic and do not fit in well with the prescence of this awareness energy.  So there was some duality there.  The central channel was open widest at the top, and bottom, and I had the distinct sense that my physical body is a really important aspect of being enlightened and not suffering.  That somehow the physical body has this big awesomeness that can protect you from suffering if you let it.  The physical body felt directly connected to this awareness, or maybe that they are the same material or 'stuff', but on different densities.  

After the meditation, I still felt this lingering sense of satisfaction and prescence, kind of like being followed by my own shadow.  It felt like it scratched an itch inside and a deep inner voice of agreement with this process occured.  This is the third successful, although VERY beginner-level, Mahamudra-type meditation I have had, so I am starting to become a true believer.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/18/15 11:49 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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... my answer to Richard would be "I don't care at all."

Good for you, Noah.

Religions exist in a vacuum. The whole of experience exists in a vacuum. So what?

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/20/15 11:28 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.20

Conceptualizing about the Mahamudra practice:

It seems that the full range of meditation events can be experienced at different levels of consciousness.  And the technique used to get to these experiences tints or influences the experiences themselves, by determining the level of subconscious at which they occur.  I bet that this is what is meant by 1) ordinary 2) subtle 3) very subtle or extraordinary.  So the awareness--based practices involve this surrender-relaxation (with the right pointers) that bring one DOWN first, and then stimulate a similar set of circumstances as the one's that occur on the ordinary level (i.e. jhanas, nanas, cessations, etc).

Also, if this is true, it means I need to make sure I have the patience and calmness carrying over from daily life, by whatever means necessary, to enable sitting meditation.  Its just a point a to point b, there's nothing special about the means (which happen to be exercise, horse stance, 3rd chakra concentration, sleep).  

Further on the conceptual level, it seems that I have exhausted everything I can experience on an ordinary level, via what the Tibetan's call 'artificial activity.'  This makes sense, as my training with Ron took me through all means of nanas, jhanas, cessations, etc... But the common theme to all of it was the volitional technique that got me there.

_________________________

an experience:

Listening to reggie describe how awareness and space are one thing, I had a strong, elongated fruition.  I felt my consciousness rush out of my head after this to meet with this surrounding space.  I also had the sense that it was warm and nice and cozy.  I thought, if awareness is this space, then what happens when I go to sleep?  I had the image of a warm, bathing awareness sort of protecting me as I slept.

I think the transformation potential in this for me is not just directly recognizing things as they are, but also what to actually DO about it, or how do I want TO BE within it?  In other words, if awareness is this cozy, nice thing that we are always in, then maybe I should stop resisting life so much, or thinking about things, or taking feeling aversive.  Maybe I should suck some of this awareness in and feel energized and ACT.  Etc.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/21/15 11:44 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.21

an experience:

Doing the lower belly breath from the mahamudra entry protocols, I was trying to notice the energy flowing through my body, but I couldn't help but notice the noticing itself.  That is, a two-fold thing was happening:

1) subtle energy was flowing
2) attention was this spotlight that was moving freely between its objects, moment by moment

I had this epiphany: "wherever your attention goes, there it is, or even, there you are."  I then was worried that this epiphany would not solve my bipolar motivation issues, but I reminded myself that all my previous shifts have occurred by being in the moment and not worrying about the future, so why not the next one?  At this, I felt huge energy pulses leaving my head and I had a kriya that tensed my whole body and caused my eyes to roll back.

edit: I wanted to expand on this epiphany- Which is that, there is this quality of "freedom of movement" to the attention, and it hurts to try to contain it.  So I should just allow my attention to do its wild thing- to be that spotlight which continuously lights random things up all day long.  And there is also some sort of bigger light of awareness which does the whole field, and these two things are not necessarily different, but perhaps just different versions of each other, and all of this is okay.  So the point is to just let the tracks remain lubricated, meaning just let perception do its thing and be free!  

And I have faith that letting my attention be free will also slowly, or quickly train my brain to not be bipolar/aversive, and that eventually the healthier parts of my personality will either naturally come to the surface, or I will EASILY be able to train them to the surface in such a way that effort is not detectable.

_________________

another experience:

When Reggie started talking about feeling the support of the earth and breathing it in through the pereneum, I had this vision that I was in paradise and I could drop my human function entirely if I could closely approximate this vision enough.  It felt like all my actualism training was coming back to me in one second.  It was incredibly ecstatic, and shining.  The earth is mother, is embracing us, and all is well. emoticon  Really quite a wonderful feeling, relaxing in the bone marrow.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/24/15 2:48 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/24/15 2:48 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.24

Some thoughts on different levels of mental science practice:

I've been rereading Ernest Holme's Science of Mind, and thinking about the way I've been engaged with loa/intentionality over the last five years or so.  At the highest or most essential level, mental science starts with a conviction of oneness or unity, that is grokked in the body, and maintained at all times.  This level would be characterized by its impersonal nature, the generality of the qualities which are inherent within it (love, power, harmony, etc), and perhaps a sense of detachment or large perspective.  Any spiritual mind treatment or prayer extends directly from this place.  

Now, perhaps several tiers down from this, is where I've been practicing from more recently.  This more common and diluted level involves maintaining the link with positivity but being also continuously wrapped up in conditions.  The conditions involve those that are being treated for, but also begin to creep into the methodology of the practice.  For me, this manifests as thinking that I have to meditate to get better, and that this is the only possible solution the universe is extending to me.  At a subtler level, I am putting too much pressure on myself to get better, and not enough on the supply of abundance in the enviornment.  So there are subtle and gross false beliefs that pollute the approach to loa.  

I was originally doing good intentionality work at a high level, and found that meditation was provided to me as this vessel of healing.  It is easy to become attached to a particular solution when it is life changing and wonderful.  The back side of fortune is desperation.  Meditation is a vessel of healing.  Law of attraction is the river that it floats on.  It can be easy to get the two confounded.  There are many other vessels out there; wonderful circumstances waiting to manifest in this play of Mind.  

The lesson is that it is better to stay up at the top level of mental science practice and resist the tempation to get pulled into the "body" ("spirit"=thought-energy/consciousness, "soul"=pure energy of manifestation, "body"=conditioned/formed manifestation).  I have a decent track record with mental science and have seen it transform the lives of other's as well.  Best to stick with the creative and dependable way.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/28/15 1:11 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/27/15 11:52 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.27

-"form is non-form expressing itself" "life is desire, direction, etc"- my dad, talking about law of attraction

We can't be here without having desire.  We are desire.  We have preference and are preference.  We are contrast.  There is no escape from this.  There is no imprisonment in this.  There is no lessening or increasing of energy in this regard.

-Although there is not an official point to life, there are accurate ways of describing, including plus sign (not minus), formed (not void), energy, movement, desire-contrast, attraction-repulsion, EXPRESSION.  It could be argued that Buddhism does not say enough about this, and perhaps oversimplifies, by suggesting that it can be transcended, or eliminated, or whatever, and perhaps that oversimplification is some of what pragmatic dharma culturally balances against.  

I am quite sure that the thing people call "law of attraction" DOES exist.  This is my direct experience.  Even as an actualist, I could not truly deny this.  

The point is not to reach an end.  The point is, assuming there is no beginning and no end (or an unavoidable beginning and end [birth and death] which would be effectively the same thing here) how do you want to live life, for now?  

Life is expression, and expression needs to be worked with, not controlled.  To be in form is to express, and to emote, or feel, or have preference, is to guide your reality.  It is actually kind of cool.  In this moment, I accept that I am energy, and that I am sensitive to that fact, and that I love to blab about it.  

-https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMvNnpEKVBk In the first ten or so minutes of this video, Abraham makes an interesting point, which is that, if you are experiencing negative emotion, you are NOT doing it wrong!  Furthermore, you will never close the gap between what you desire and what you currently have.  That is not the goal.  The goal is not to get everything you want.  You will always be creating inevitably, anyway.  A joyous life is one in which the gap is continuously narrowed.  A miserable life is one in which the gap is continuously widened.  

There is some type of goal, though.  The goal is to be conscious of what you want, and to continuously enjoy the process of getting into internal alignment with that desire.  In other words, feel good about feeling good.  This is similar to actualism. whose goal is to enjoy and appreciate this moment of being alive, because this is the only time you will ever be alive.  The practices of actualism and law of attraction are similar in this way.  The practice of meditation can be similar in this way as well (although there are dark nights and such).  Deep meditative transformation can be a result of this process of conscious creation.

One thing I learned from actualism is that if you get to a point of enjoyment and appreciation in a given moment, you are done! Job well done, work is over for the time being.  There is not "always more", but rather there are lots of temporary end points.  Law of attraction has something to add to this perspective, which is that this process of working to a crescendo, basking in the good feeling, and then dropping back down the emotion scale again, is inherently joyous.  This is the very process of life doing itself, and is to be appreciated.  While actualism sees this as a means of mimicking life in a state of 'pure consciousness', loa teachings see this process as a true end in-and-of-itself, not just the mimicking of an end.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/28/15 9:11 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.28

Pali Canon: Notice how past mindstates lead to present mindstates, present mindstates lead to present mindstates, and present mindstates lead to future mindstates.  Use this insight to cutivate skillful mindstates in the present and future.  Skillful means less suffering aka feeling good.

Actual Freedom Trust
: Realize that this moment is your only moment of being alive.  Learn to prioritize enjoyment and appreciation above all else, in each moment.  Notice how silly it is to live any other way but this one (the way that feels good).

Abraham Hicks: Always move towards a better feeling thought, going from general statements/observations to specific topics/issues.  Align with who you are and what you are by allowing good feelings to emerge.  Cultivate good feelings just because they feel good, not even to make anything happen.

It is remarkable how similar these three sources of information are, when boiled down to their essence.  These have been my three main resources for 'morality' training recently.  They all have to do with working with one's thoughts and emotions, rather than trying to transcend them or eliminate them in one form or another.  They all have to do with being happy just for the sake of being happy.  A sort of 'fake buddha quote' might be: there is no way to feeling good, feeling good is the way.  As corny as that is, the pattern in my practice is apparent.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 1:04 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 1:04 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12.31

In loa practice, its not right to fabricate emotions because they tend to block out how you truly feel about what is happening.  It's also not right to entirely focus on external circumstances happening in the future, because if the visualizations are too specific, you will have no authentic emotional connection to them, and if they are too vivid (even if they are general), then they will have no emotional material at all (either authentic or inauthentic).  

An example of this is the feeling of empowerment.  I have spent literally hundreds of hours rehearsing a feeling of empowerment.  I have not been able to change who I am so deeply that my emotional baseline has become this feeling.  I have also spent many hours trying to visualize specific, future, success scenarios.  These attempts have also, largely failed.

A better process is to remember specific, past successes.  You do not have to remember past emotions though.  Emotions are not the business of past and future.  They need to be authentic to your chemistry in the moment.  So the best thing to do is to remember the past and allow what emotions arise to arise.  

When working towards the future, the general-to-specific principle is key.  Ask yourself questions like "wouldn't it be nice if..."  If necessary, start out by releasing yourself from all pressure: "nothing needs to happen right now", "I do not need to figure this out."

When demonstrations do begin to occur in life (as they have for me the past few days), do not let yourself get swayed into specifics.  Demonstrations are like little puffs of smoke that need not follow any logical pattern or build off of one another.  They don't need to be controlled or understood.  They don't need to be focused on at all, any more than any other nice detail in life might tend to be noticed bby the human mind.  Just keep going with the general feeling of happiness, and the regular way of living life. 

Unrelated to the above, there is genius in the way Abraham advices people to actively self-talk in a stream-of-consciousness way, rather than trying to forcefully hold certain specific thoughts or emotions for extended periods of time.  This is just not how the mind works.  If one were trained into instant, hard jhana, it might very well work, but why spend the time to learn that, when you can have just as much of an effect through many, fleeting, inter-related positive mind-moments?

Also unrelated, one thing I have done wrong in the past is allowed myself to spiral way down the emotional spectrum when not purposely doing 'positive thinking.'  My guess is that this type of mental habit can really derail any sort of manifestation that might have been in the works.  This mental habit seems to have arisen out of a false dichotomy I created where I was either a) thinking normally or b) concentrating on the positive, artificically...  The key to reconciling these two things is to normally/organically think (not concentrate) and feel positive.  This is what 1) stream-of-consciousness and 2) general-to-specific, are there for.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 1:59 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Noah - what's the objective of meditation? Seriously. Why bother? 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 2:09 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hi Chris,

There is no objective.  There is just the presence of mental and emotional energy that is in all of us.  Whether one is conscious of it or not, one is making choices about what to do with that energy.  This is just me making chocies about what to do with my energy in this moment, nothing more.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 2:54 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 2:54 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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So there's no objective at all? 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 2:59 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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At this time, I don't have a personal objective in relation to meditation or general self-improvement, in the same way that I have previously. 

I am focused on basic survival, and enjoyment of what life has to offer.  I do have material goals, and am working on smoothing out the way that I think and feel about them.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/1/16 10:43 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 3:59 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I always seem to have some motivation to practice, even if it's purely from habit, or even out of a fear that if I stop something "bad" will happen. At first I wanted to "fix" myself because I felt I was out of sync with the rest of the world and I really thought there was something wrong with me. As I got deeper into it my motivation changed and my focus became to investigate how experience worked, how "reality" was put together and what this thing called "Chris" really was. 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 12/31/15 4:32 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I agree.  Always some motivation to practice (not necessarily talking about buddhist techniques here).  What I am realizing is that motivation is impermanent, alwys in flux, and that that is a-okay.  I am not 'doing it wrong' just because I have different desires on different days.  So the question for me becomes, how to work most skillfully with this energy that is happening, whether I like it or not?  The image of surfing the waves, rather than trying to control them, comes to mind here.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/4/16 9:10 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/1/16 2:06 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/1/16

-I am glad to have 'let myself off the hook', and simply enjoyed myself, alone, last night.  I had a good time and there was joy in the freedom from pressure to make plans.  Enjoyment and appreciation are good ways to be; they are skillful states of mind; they are in vibrational alignment with who we are and what we desire; they are sensible modes of living.  

It is good to not have to decide on a belief system.  If law-of-attraction is what is real, then through enjoyment, I will manifest my highest good in the external world.  If the actualist wordview is what is real, then I will be heading towards actual freedom, whether I like it or not (and whether I adopt certain views/philosophies, or not).  If Buddhist dogma is true, then I will be building merit through the accumulated momentum of skillful states of mind.  If none of the above are real, I will at least be having lots of positive moments of appreciation, in this fleeting life that we live.

There are many directions I could move in in the future, and there is joy to be found in the fact that no single one is the clear choice right now.  Is there not a sense of thrill and adventure in all of this?  Perhaps I will continue to benefit from meditation for decades.  Or maybe one of the actualists in the Yahoo group will become actually free in 2016.  That would be wonderful, and would certainly spur me back into action down that route.  There are also many exciting external circumstances that have yet to occur for me, the least of which is starting my hr career.

Life is good.  Uncertainty is energy is form is desire is joy.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/2/16 5:00 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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The Niyamas in Buddhism:

1) Uta-Niyama- the workings of matter (chemistry, physics, etc.)
2) Bija-Niyama- the workings of life (biology)
3) Citta-Niyama-  the workings of basic sentient life (i.e. animal conditioning)
4) Kamma-Niyama- the workings of the human mind (psychology, meditation, brain rewiring, etc)
5) Dhamma-Niyama- the workings of 'spirit'/energy/awareness/Mind

http://www.elephantjournal.com/2015/02/karma-its-not-about-what-we-do/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyama#Buddhism

I like this model because it helps to explain the interaction between law of attraction and meditation, as well as the heirarchy of different meditation practices and experiences.  First off, this model helps to cut through two oversimplifications.  

One is the Buddhist view that karma explains all of the events we will encounter in our life.  Culudasa refutes this in the elaphant journal article, saying that karma is only works on the level of the human mind- understanding karma helps us shape future, skillful mindstates.  Than-Geoff also speaks to this in various articles.  

The second view is from the New Age community- that we have shaped every single aspect of our experience via law of attraction.  While I do believe that thoughts and emotions have a magickal, directly-causal effect on our physical world in a way that defies scientific materialism, I also believe that there are other, equally powerful stratum, concurrent with this order in the world.  This explains why law-of-attraction alters certain aspects of reality and not others.  Daniel Ingram's idea of 'fields of belief and disbelief' also contributes to this model.  This idea is contained in the New Thought movement with the understanding that the Law will always work through the most obvious or least disruptive means.  

My takeaway is that meditation and enlightenment occur on the karma level of things by creating a mind which is less susceptible to 'bummers' as Leigh Brasington would say (http://www.leighb.com/bummer.htm).  However, the way this magical transformation occurs is through a fleeting contact with the dharma level which transforms it forever.  I was reading an archived dho post today which someone linked, in which a respected participant said that the Theravadan cessation occurs due to the flooding in of primordial awareness.  In this case, primordial awareness would be the dharma level, which eclipses the karma level in that moment, and permanently changes the karma level forever.  It makes sense that similar interventions could occur, in which the dharma level would undue some pattern of matter, life, unconscious conditioning, or conscious mind.  

The idea in the New Thought movement is that a practitioner can directly affect any of the levels of causation, by contacting the dharma level and changing things there.  New thought basically claims that the dharma level has direct control of all of the other levels of mind, all the time and immediately.  This seems to totally destroy the concept of having different levels in the first place.  While that seems like bullshit, there does seem to be a difference in the effect of conventional, automatic thinking, and thinking that takes place in a conscious awareness of the different levels of causation.  Somehow, by turning onto the possibility of there existing a higher level, that level is indirectly contacted.  With enough of the right content being funneled in the 'dharma-level' direction, external reality can start to morph in inexplicable ways.  

edit:

I also wanted to add that contemplative traditions tend to isolated one set of characteristics in the passive state of the dharma-level.  One meditates following the belief system that by contacting pure spirit (cessation) they will retain some aspect in their mental state forever (fruition).  There is no further effort involved in the maintenance of the basic qualities of mind which continue to shine through.  
However, the dharma-level also seems to have active sets of characteristics associated with it.  The best evidence for this is in the explanation of why certain positive thinking practices work and others do not.  If I say "I have perfect health, my body and mind are blueprints from perfect spirit.  Nothing can possibly harm them.  They are immortal"... this is obvious rubbish and does not usually work that quickly (daily effort of this type might start to work within a few months).  Instead, if I do things that will allow me to authentically relax, and do not endeavor to reach for too much too fast, then healing synchronicities will start to occur pretty fast (about a week).  

To me, this suggests that method A ("perfect everything, all the time") does not resonate with or resemble spirit/mind/energy (dharma level) as much as method B (actual relaxation and letting go and authentic appreciation of momentary joy).  In other words, there is a right and a wrong answer about what the dharma level has to say about active life processes such as law of attraction, and not just what it has to say about more passive ones such as one's perceptual baseline (enlightenment.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/3/16 3:09 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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A New Form of Optimism:

I feel a new sense of living forming for me.  It's characterized by being satisfied with small victories in each moment, and by fully appreciating temporary pleasures.  Stringing together these temporary pleasures creates a sense of continuity and conclusion or certainty in life.  From an actualist point of view, this is the highest ideal of how to live.  From a law of attraction point of view, in doing this, one is offering no resistance, and therefore allowing all of the things that one has desired in past and present to gradually come into manifestation.  From a Buddhist point of view, one is practicing contentment, generosity, guarding the sense doors, and building merit through this process.  

It is important to highlight the greatness of what is already present.  It is important for me to be happy with what I have.  It is important for me to appreciate and be glad that others have what they have.  In other words, turn towards the joys in one's own life, and in other's lives, continuously.  This perspective needs to be renewed continuously in each area of inquiry or each major aspect of life that is looked at.  There are lots of wrinkles that need to be ironed out.  There are lots of habitual stresses that need to be re-patterned.  Examples of major areas of inquiry include self-image, opinions of others, material belongings, spiritual progress, etc.  Get thrilled by how much good there is in each of these areas.

One result that is already forming for me is that this optimistic way of living counters the tensions of a linear-goal-orientation.  There are so many ways in which I have already won; in which I have already lived a wonderful life.  The same is true for many others around me.  We are all so lucky to be alive and to have the things that we have.  I have the feeling that even if I died tomorrow, I could do so a happy man.  This counters the idea that I need to reach another stage of enlightenment, or need to manifest certain things, or need to 'beat bipolar disorder' in order to have lived a full life.  It creates a certain sense of freedom.  

This is not something that needs to forced.  This is not something that one must do.  Rather, it is just one optional way of working with the energy of mind.  In actualism, this 'forcing' is looked down upon and called moralizing.  The Abraham-HIcks concept of the 'emotional guidance system' is useful here.  If it feels like it is being forced, that is already a step in the wrong direction.  The background point here is that we all have mental energy, and we are all making decisions, both conscious and unconscious, about what to do with that energy.  I would be totally willing to drop this approach at any time.  I have learned to stay away from obsessing and neuroticism, and instead opt to gracefully surf the waves of my mind.

The other aspect of this new mode is the idea of energy and desire.  To be in form is to be manipulated by desire.  Accepting this as a process of dynamic energy is vital.  As humans, we will tend towards having strong desire, achieving those desires, and then moving on to other desires.  We know that enlightenment does not eliminate this.  Even in actual freedom, there is still preference and character, which is a form of this energetic process.  So don't reject desire.  Use the emotional guidance system as a way to work with it skillfully.  Guide your mind into a state of momentary, authentic, joyous, independence.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/3/16 8:15 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/4/16 11:03 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/4/16

In TMI, Culadasa treats the practices surrounding meditation as a sort of art and science.  There is a proper way to think about meditation in general; in terms of progress; etc.  There is a proper way to sit down to meditate, involving relaxation, as if one were at the spa.  There is a proper way to coach and encourage oneself, in purely positive, and optimistic terms, both on and off the cushion.  It all reminds me of a zen tea ceremony.  

I think all of this is wonderful, and blends really well with what I have been doing with my mind lately.  Furthermore, none of this is to be brushed aside as 'beginner stuff', in my opinion.  I like the image and spirit of grace and optimism that surrounds all of what he recommends with regards to preparatory practice.  Each step builds into the next one, and all are purely pragmatic, so this bears no resemblance to mushroom-boomer-buddhism.  
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 1/4/16 11:22 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/4/16 11:22 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Each step builds into the next one, and all are purely pragmatic, so this bears no resemblance to mushroom-boomer-buddhism.  

If it does, does that make it wrong?  ;-P
-Eva
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/6/16 2:22 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/5/16

-Skyped with a new teacher yesterday.  Coming from the Thai forest tradition, he described how important it is to be grounded in joy, satisfaction and wellness even before taking up meditation, and also while in it.  This confers with the Abraham work I've been doing lately, as well as the Culadasa reading, in that he writes that the dark night can be avoided.  

I felt heartened by several images this teacher shared with me, including the idea that satipatana involves reworking the entire chemistry of the body to get it used to feeling less stress and more happiness.  This was coupled with the idea of breathing into the chest area very deeply when I feel agitation, so as to not allow that agitation to spread to the limbs and tense up in the muscles there, as well as in the face.  This is the primary symptom that prevents me from engaging in a fruitful formal sitting practice.  The brain releases stress chemicals to the heart, which pumps them through the body.  To reverse this flow, one starts at the heart and communicates back to the brain that now is the time for joy and release.

I wish to maintain balance and perspective, but if I am to work with this teacher and this method, I now that I also not to commit to a certain degree.  The instruction seems promising in the same way that actualism was; that it is a path of joy, and not purely equanimity and insight, which is what I have mostly worked on previously.  The proximate cause for concentration is happiness, not stressful effort.  How to commit?  Don't worry, be happy, have some trust in the process, think that all is well, etc.  That seems like a decent first response.  

__________________

Thought:  The process of teaching myself to be patient with meditation and to prepare my mind for sitting outside of meditation IS the process of meditation, in a sense.  Meaning, it is the clearing away of the hindrances, and the working with this mind.  It is just as integral or necessary or 'advanced' as being in jhana or having various insights.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/6/16 2:28 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I was reading old DhO and KFD threads when people were practicing methods "inspired by actualism."  I find these archives enlightening because they help me relate to my own patterns and map how this all fits together.  Here are some disjointed thoughts:

-The time-span involved in many of these practices was relatively short, although some people practiced methods "inspired by actualism," for months and years.  There is a pattern in these discussions for participants to 'reach' for permanent outcomes or shifts (i.e. shifts past '4th path') in weeks or months.  I have practiced like this for several years.  It has benefited me greatly.  But I can also see it as flawed.

-These types of discussions seem to have established a culture in which off-cushion/walking-around practice was considered just as valid or advanced as formal meditation.  I can see how this helped encourage my freestyle noting.  The teacher I worked with at the time also was very helpful in adapting to my methods rather than refusing to work with me.  I still remember when he said he wasn't sure if it would work, but then concluded that it would after one session of noting for him (by proving that I could reach low-eq).  

This has all been a perfect storm for me to avoid formal sitting.  I spent a long time trying to figure out exactly what the fundamental difference was between formal sitting and off-cusion practice.  I don't usually conceptualize about that stuff anymore.  I now wish to adapt to sitting still, despite any ambiguity as to why.  

-Not to be a dick, but I am sure that I know more about actualism than almost everyone who was participating in these discussions.  It appears that the experiences these participants were labelling as 'PCE's' were not the real thing.  The most interesting discovery to be found in this reading is that a form of suppression is possible, in which one focuses on only the pleasant aspects of external sensory experience.  Paired with strong belief, this suppression is capable of stopping emotions for weeks or months at a time.  They do return.  

I didn't do methods "inspired by actualism" for long, but I did experience this, in a small way.  I also experienced it when I was doing methods "inspired by Mahamudra", more recently.  Some yogis appeared to have had accidental, spiritual realizations as a result of this.  I am sure that these are realizations that many previous meditators have had through using more traditional means.

There is also the real actualism, which involves a lot more internal dialogue and a lot less of anything involving a special mode of perception.  This method has worked for a very small group of individuals, maybe seven or eight, in producing the real 'actual freedom'.  Of that group, only three make themselves available for inquiry to this day.  The sample size is too small, in my opinion.

My takeaway is that actual freedom is different from enlightenment(s), and that they are simply apples and oranges, and they are both better than conventional personhood.  Also, there is probably not an endpoint to insight training, as I understand how the Buddha taught it (the reduction of suffering).  Meaning, suffering can be reduced through ever-more subtle realizations about the nature of things like time, space, awareness, the 12 links, compassion, etc. infinitely.  It is possible to reach a point in which all further progress is seen as relative.  This is how I would conceptually define 'technical 4th path.'  I would not try to impose this definition on others.  It is for my own convenience.  

My own personal measuring stick is a level of suffering-reduction that is 'acceptable to me', meaning, I will know it when I get there.  I might be about halfway there.  There is of course, still lots more to be done once I get to a certain level of reduced-suffering.  I'm sure I will meditate for the rest of my life.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/6/16 4:24 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I was meditating just now and noticed a point where I would normally turn towards restlessness and agitation, but instead my mind redirected back into the breathing and pleasure of calmness.  I could tell, in this moment, that this change did NOT occur as a result of previous meditation, but instead occured as a result of off-cushion mental re-conditioning.  Meaning, a change in attitude can be just as powerful, if not more, than a progression within or between formal sits.  

The thing I am noticing is that:

Way of thinking/feeling-->Jhana

Whereas I used to only look at it one way:

Jhana-->Way of thinking/feeling

They have a reflexive relationship in which setting things like 'Right View' and 'Right Resolve' are at least equally important to 'Right Mindfulness' and 'Right Concentration', if not moreso!  Convincing oneself that meditation is a space for play, freedom and rest, rather than one of hard work, stress, and determination, is a part of this.  Another part, for me, seems to have to do with TIME.  How can I become more patient?  I need to convince myself to WANT to extend this space for longer and longer periods.  Flip the scripts, so longer sits don't require more discipline and effort, but rather, less discipline and more fun.

______________________

Abraham (as in Abraham-Hicks, which can be youtubed) talks a lot about how there are two things going on with law-of-attraction... One is our 'desires', and the other is our vibrational alignment with our desires.  Meaning, there is something you want, but are you 'ready' for what you want?  Are you able to 'embody' it, or take on the responsibility that it entails?

I am reading Anapanasati Bhavana, by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, translated by Bhikkhu Nagasena.  Buddhadhasa is of the Thai Forest Tradition, as I understand (although I'm not confident about the politics of it beyond that).  The way morality is explained in the book is that the precepts are not to be followed rigidly, but rather are to be understood within the context of meditation.  In other words, how does one's way of thinking and acting in the world directly minimize the hindrances before going into meditation?  Meditation is meant to be approached with joy from the start, as illustrated by the process of Anapanasati, which involves purposefully breathing in rapture, then tranquility, etc.  

I relate the Abraham teaching with the Buddhadasa teaching in this way:  If (1) jhana, and eventually nibbana, is what you (1) desire, then (2) morality is the way to (2) vibrationally align with that desire.  So, if you practice morality in a way that causes more stress, i.e. by 'forcing' the precepts through willpower and grit, then, in turn, meditation will be a stressful activity that one must force oneself to do.  However, if you use morality as a way to gladden the mind, and realize how wonderful and lucky you are to be alive, than meditation will be a process of gladdening the mind from the start.

For the longest time I have thought that a stressful morality-meditation would lead to a happy and stress-free result.  I realized now that I was confused.  One needs to already be happy and content in order to gain more of this, and in the unconditioned way the Buddha was talking about.  I can see how an over-focus on the relative nature of all emotion, and an under-focus on amplifying positive emotion, has contributed to this misunderstanding in my practice.

_____________________________

Okay, further epiphanies.  This is a good day for them.  I like tv shows like House, Life, Jessica Jones, and The Mentalist because they feature powerful, confident leads who do not give a shit.  I used to think the reason I related to them was in their detachment, but that does not make sense because I am actually quite an attached person.  So why do I actually relate to them?  I think 'not giving a shit' is a proxy for relaxation, for me.  Meaning, I tend to associate feeling relaxed with not feeling pressure, aka deciding not to care about responsibility.  

But just as TV is not real life, detachment does not always lead to relaxation.  Better to just recognize what it is that I really need in order to function (relaxation and ease) rather than to follow childhood-archtypical associations in a search driven by blind craving.  The need is real, the craving and reasonings are not.  

It is no wonder that I associate morality training with stress alone.  Underlying that stress reaction, I feel a sense of 'danger': a flight mechanism.  In order to counter this flight mechanism, I seek the safety of feeling aloof through feeling powerful and detached.  I align myself with characters who embody these qualities.  To cut the middle man, I need to treat the stress, and learn to directly approach morality with a calm mind.  I must associate meeting my responsibilites with a sense of joy alone, in a purely positive formulation.

Calmness is not the only quality required because another symptom of the underlying flight reaction is obsessive thought.  The counter to obsessive thought is simplicity.  Calmness and simplicity are required to treat the root of my suffering.  Treating the root of my suffering will allow me to cultivate the correct mental and emotional atmosphere in daily life,  which can allow me to behave in the correct way, i.e. diet, time management, hygeine, etc.  Behaving in the right way will set the stage for relaxed meditation sessions, which can in turn lead back into treating the root of suffering and improving other areas of life.

The core difference here is that I used to always reject the simplicity behind the phrase 'don't worry, be happy.'  I thought the additional ingredients of power and detachment were necessary to complete this formula.  I now realize that they are just symptoms of my particular brand of dis-ease.  In fact, relaxation/simplicity/contentedness/sensory-withdrawl/ease was the answer the whole time.  I was just not ready to realize it.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 1/7/16 3:19 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/7/16 3:19 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
I was meditating just now and noticed a point where I would normally turn towards restlessness and agitation, but instead my mind redirected back into the breathing and pleasure of calmness.  I could tell, in this moment, that this change did NOT occur as a result of previous meditation, but instead occured as a result of off-cushion mental re-conditioning.  Meaning, a change in attitude can be just as powerful, if not more, than a progression within or between formal sits.  

The thing I am noticing is that:

Way of thinking/feeling-->Jhana

Whereas I used to only look at it one way:

Jhana-->Way of thinking/feeling

They have a reflexive relationship in which setting things like 'Right View' and 'Right Resolve' are at least equally important to 'Right Mindfulness' and 'Right Concentration', if not moreso!  Convincing oneself that meditation is a space for play, freedom and rest, rather than one of hard work, stress, and determination, is a part of this.  Another part, for me, seems to have to do with TIME.  How can I become more patient?  I need to convince myself to WANT to extend this space for longer and longer periods.  Flip the scripts, so longer sits don't require more discipline and effort, but rather, less discipline and more fun.
Yes yes!  For me, development seems to have in a large part been that I have gotten much much better at noticing and understanding my motivations and how thoughts, attitudes, perspectives, and goals all interact and how tweaking of each effects the others.  I used to be almost totally obvious of such things compared to where I am now but I am still noticing more nuances regularly. 

Abraham (as in Abraham-Hicks, which can be youtubed) talks a lot about how there are two things going on with law-of-attraction... One is our 'desires', and the other is our vibrational alignment with our desires.  Meaning, there is something you want, but are you 'ready' for what you want?  Are you able to 'embody' it, or take on the responsibility that it entails?
Yes!  I think that is the main issue, poeple have desires but some part or parts of them are not ready for the desires to come true.  If all were in alignment, then the desire would have happened already.  I have read that about half of those who win big bucks in the lotto experience deep depression within a year.  Why is that?  Well they suddenly can have most or all desires fulfilled but the pleasures of getting any normal desire will fade over the weeks and months.  Once that happens, the person may have no idea where to turn to search for happiness.  Before the money, the person could dream and believe that fulfillment of various desires could lead to happiness, but after those desires are fullfilled and happiness does not come, then what?  The person can loose hope of happiness if not able to alter attitudes about source of happiness.  So, for half of people, fulfillment of many desires lead to depression, enough of a reason for a part of self that IMO probably knows that will happen, to decide you are better off not getting all those things. 
I am reading Anapanasati Bhavana, by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, translated by Bhikkhu Nagasena.  Buddhadhasa is of the Thai Forest Tradition, as I understand (although I'm not confident about the politics of it beyond that).  The way morality is explained in the book is that the precepts are not to be followed rigidly, but rather are to be understood within the context of meditation.  In other words, how does one's way of thinking and acting in the world directly minimize the hindrances before going into meditation?  Meditation is meant to be approached with joy from the start, as illustrated by the process of Anapanasati, which involves purposefully breathing in rapture, then tranquility, etc.  

I relate the Abraham teaching with the Buddhadasa teaching in this way:  If (1) jhana, and eventually nibbana, is what you (1) desire, then (2) morality is the way to (2) vibrationally align with that desire.  So, if you practice morality in a way that causes more stress, i.e. by 'forcing' the precepts through willpower and grit, then, in turn, meditation will be a stressful activity that one must force oneself to do.  However, if you use morality as a way to gladden the mind, and realize how wonderful and lucky you are to be alive, than meditation will be a process of gladdening the mind from the start.
For the longest time I have thought that a stressful morality-meditation would lead to a happy and stress-free result.  I realized now that I was confused.  
Yes, I agree, meditation and enlightenment will not magically wipe away such probs.  What it will do is give you improved ability to do that yourself with added insight and tools, but it's still going to be you doing hte work and making the choices. 

One needs to already be happy and content in order to gain more of this, and in the unconditioned way the Buddha was talking about.  I can see how an over-focus on the relative nature of all emotion, and an under-focus on amplifying positive emotion, has contributed to this misunderstanding in my practice.

_____________________________

Okay, further epiphanies.  This is a good day for them.  I like tv shows like House, Life, Jessica Jones, and The Mentalist because they feature powerful, confident leads who do not give a shit.  I used to think the reason I related to them was in their detachment, but that does not make sense because I am actually quite an attached person.  So why do I actually relate to them?  I think 'not giving a shit' is a proxy for relaxation, for me.  Meaning, I tend to associate feeling relaxed with not feeling pressure, aka deciding not to care about responsibility.  

But just as TV is not real life, detachment does not always lead to relaxation.  
Well I think by itself, lots of detachment leads to lots of boredom.  I do think it leads to less stress but you will also get lack of motivation.  From what I can tell, stress is a kind of excitement that is just a hair's breath removed from a more happy kind of excitement.  It's like you have an energy in you and if that energy gets paired with certain kinds of unskillful thought, the outcome is anxiety/stress, but tweak the thougths/attitdues just a tad and the energy becomes happy excitment.  So I think the trick is not to remove the energy but to channel it more skillfully.  If you remove it, then you are bored and listless about life which is a kind of relaxation that may be better than anxiety by a tad but IMO is not someplace I want to rest myself in long term. 


The core difference here is that I used to always reject the simplicity behind the phrase 'don't worry, be happy.'  I thought the additional ingredients of power and detachment were necessary to complete this formula.  I now realize that they are just symptoms of my particular brand of dis-ease.  In fact, relaxation/simplicity/contentedness/sensory-withdrawl/ease was the answer the whole time.  I was just not ready to realize it.
Seems like most (or all?) realizations are like that for me, simple stuff but I had just not really groked it previously.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/7/16 7:20 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Thanks for the responses and affirmations, Eva.  It helps to have thoughts echoed by others, as a sign of their validity.
Chris, modified 8 Years ago at 1/7/16 9:37 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/7/16 9:12 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
The core difference here is that I used to always reject the simplicity behind the phrase 'don't worry, be happy.'  I thought the additional ingredients of power and detachment were necessary to complete this formula.  I now realize that they are just symptoms of my particular brand of dis-ease.  In fact, relaxation/simplicity/contentedness/sensory-withdrawl/ease was the answer the whole time.  I was just not ready to realize it.
I've had better success at generating happiness with unconditionally smiling and not taking myself seriously.  I used to worry, think about others' opinions of myself, and make useless self-criticisms compulsively.  It no longer happens.  It stopped; it's gone.  I don't miss it.  How about an example?  I just went to the bathroom, then dried my hands in the kitchen.  I had a serving tray left out on the counter with some metal chopsticks.  The chopsticks were used to eat chicken with bbq sause, so they were "dirty".  I picked up the tray, placed the chopsticks on the counter and moved the tray to its proper spot.  With my back turned I heard one of the chopsticks roll off of the counter onto the floor.  I placed the tray and turned and saw it bounce.  No mess, no problem.  No thought of "dammit, now I have to bend down and pick this up," or "probably made a mess on the floor that I have to clean up now."  Just smiling, bending down and picking it up, then remembering a thought a few seconds prior about "need to wash them but probably won't do it."  This instead forced me to do something I wanted to do anyway, made me feel better.  It's clear which response is more useful.  Now, this sounds like an all-too-simple example, because it is.  What was doing when I got fired from my last job?  Smiling.  Easy.  The first time that happened, it destroyed me for months.  No need for that ever again.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/8/16 4:13 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Hey Chris, 

So are you agreeing that the 'keep it simple, be happy' approach is a good/effective one?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/8/16 5:12 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/7/16

Reviving Direct Mode

Going against my recent inclinations, I have decided to start experimenting with Kenneth Folk's 'direct mode' technique.  My understanding is that this technique came about in response to the 'actual freedom crisis' that went on in the pragmatic dharma community about 6 years ago.  Despite its somewhat messy origins, practices such as this seemed to help a handful of yogis discover new thresholds of contemplative transformation.  Some yogis seem to have renounced the technique, along with the problematic approach of trying to permanently eliminate all emotions or self-referential thoughts.  Others seemed to have gained lasting benefits from these practices.  The danger seems to be in defining these transformations as some sort of '5th path' or 'AF', rather than in the practices themselves.  

My interest is in gaining further perceptual shifts as quickly as possible.  I don't care about the exact nature of those shifts; anything will do, as long as it is permanent, and it reduces suffering in some way.  I am specifically not trying to completely wipe out any aspect of experience (i.e. shooting for 'no emotion').  What matters to me is that I have strong evidence that this technique works for people after 'technical 4th path' to get further shifts.  About six months ago, I was diagnosed as having reached 'technical 4th path.'  I no longer like this terminology or way of thinking.  Since that time, I have repeatedly had my heart broken as I have failed to find the 'right answer' for what do next.  However, life goes on, as does the spiritual journey, so all I can do is put one step in front of the other.

This is a video explanation of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WiCXn87BF4

This a textual explanation of it: http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12485-3rd-gear-the-sunspot-and-the-lightning-rod

These are a few practice journals of previous yogis experimenting with it:
http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12634-antero-s-practise-journal-3?limitstart=0
http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12961-bill-s-notes
http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12488-kenneth-s-experiment?limitstart=0
http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12828-alex-s-experiment-with-the-grounding-of-emotions?limitstart=0
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/8/16 5:36 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/7/16

-There is a pattern where I notice the movement of an emotion in my torso, then it flattens out to become the whole torso, and then the body awareness dissipates completely, leaving only a sense of general bliss or gladness in the air.

-It feels useful to allow positive emotions, and positive energetic effects, to occur as they are (i.e. ungrounded/taking place in the mind), rather than trying to find them in the body.  When I do try to ground them, they tend to fall apart in a way that leads directly into negative emotions.

-A complex layering of emotions just occured: anxiety clustered along the center of the chest, agitation rippling out to the edges of the torso, face and limbs, then kundalini and rapture surging up the spinal column.  In between these extremes, I can feel the body as a whole.  By repeatedly highlighting this in-between spot with my attention, there is a smoothing out of these various manifestations.  It literally feels like all the movement and confusion becomes this warm fluid that evenly settles throughout my entire body cavity.

-There is a stark contrast between the moments of being in the body, and the moments of distraction or embeddedness into thoughts/emotions.  Each moment of returning back to the method feels somewhat wearisome, to be honest.  But I remember that this type of effort was a precursor to success with Mahasi noting, so I have some faith.

-There seems to be a way that a thought can be 'felt' to arise in the body.  Perhaps a slight synesthesia.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 3:28 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/8/16 3:10 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/8/16

-Woke up with sadness manifesting as a sinking feeling along the sternum, and also a sort of urge to cry/tingling in the face- perhaps as a secondary effect of the chest feeling.  There is also mental talk and image patterns of 'depression', all having a tone of low energy and linking to physical sensations.  When I do the technique, what arises is that everything becomes more present with the body (reduction in the 'virtual world' of mental image/talk), and then the body sensations become more relaxed, spread out and even euphoric.  This then bounces back up into the mental sphere, with a sort of glowing sense of relief, and I give myself permission to let go.  

-Had various emotions manifesting in the upper torso throughout the day.  There was also a thinking/inner dialogue compenent to working with them that seemed to be helping.  This type of thing helped when I was doing Mahasi noting as well; I was never fully against 'thinking' during meditation, as long as one doesn't get too carried away.  There were also some periods were I felt closer to the immediacy of the present moment, in the sense of being 'closer than close' or 'about to slip off the cliff.'  These were the types of sensations that preceded path moments for me, so I tend to think they're a good sign.

In general, this method seems to be about getting out of my own way, in a more integrated way than I have ever before.  I think of Swami Rudrananda's last words before he died: "a deeper sense of surrender."  Another way of thinking about it is lessening the impact of the 'second arrow' (ala the Pali canon metaphor).  The bottom line is that there is no suffering in the present moment.  Feeling everything through the lens of the body is a really good way to get fully into the present.  Its as simple as that.  What I am hoping is that something else will 'pop' and I will be able to lock into the present in a permanently deeper way.  This seems to be how it happened for other 'post technical 4th pathers.'

-Another similarity this method has to my experience with vipassana is that a sign that I am 'hitting the spot' is that I feel the relief of true detachment: a sense of not giving a shit.  When I do hit the spot, all my problems seem to fall away, and I enter the present moment in some blissful sense.  When I then turn to examine the things that I was previously agonizing over, they are seen as just thought-emotion complexes, which are representations of previous physical events, etc.  In other words, being seen for just what they are, there is no sense of creating extra difficulty.

-I just had a big fruition.  I had the thought 'I get it, the Buddha didn't want us to figure out exactly what the witness is, or isn't... Or exactly where the seat of self is... Instead, he wanted us to stop looking for it because in the looking there is stress, and this looking is the most basic type of stress there is, and is in fact the seed of all other types of stress... All other types of stress arise from the 'trying to figure it out' mechanism, which is analogous to seeking to hold things in place, or solidify or control them....'--

This is something I have known many times before, sometimes intellectually and sometimes intuitively, but this time, as the fruition energy reached my skull and expanded my inner mental-proprioceptive screen, I kept letting go and not taking it seriously, and as each new layer of energy arose, I kept disembedding from them.  My visual field is still wobbling back and forth, with my eyes open... Damn.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 8:42 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 8:42 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I had the thought 'I get it, the Buddha didn't want us to figure out exactly what the witness is, or isn't... Or exactly where the seat of self is... Instead, he wanted us to stop looking for it because in the looking there is stress, and this looking is the most basic type of stress there is, and is in fact the seed of all other types of stress... All other types of stress arise from the 'trying to figure it out' mechanism, which is analogous to seeking to hold things in place, or solidify or control them....'-- 

Hmmm....

Anything else different since this occurred?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/11/16 11:51 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/11/16 11:51 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris:

Hmmm....

Anything else different since this occurred?


Hey Chris, I responded on the AN as well.  Looks like it didn't stick.  Might not've even been a fruition :/
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 12:41 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 12:00 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/11

-Still collecting data on the 'direct mode.'  It seems like it really did work for people.  Today I was more successful at staying in the body.  I can feel both thoughts and emotions as physical renditions and not mental ones.  The main effort seems to be to stay with feeling the body as one whole chunk.  Kenneth calls this "the dead man's switch."  I need to figure out how to do the practice and not get sucked into sadness/depression.

It occurs to me that I don't have to fully be in 'direct mode' for this practice to work/take effect.  In fact, if I try to push all the way into direct mode, it derails my effortss completely.  What is more important is to be willing to make a large amount of low-quality effort, over time: being happy with maintaing a halfway-to-direct mode experience.

-Working with my new skype-meditation coach is going great.  He's helped me work on gladdening the mind, and explained more about how to work with the hindrances than any meditation teacher I've ever had (and I've had some damn good teachers).  Long story short, I have been able to do consistent breath meditation the past two days, without any agitation at all.  

He also explained the seven factors of enlightenment in an incredible way.  I was able to get good sati, dhamma vicaya and early piti going.  Instead of thinking of viraya as effort, he has guided me to think of it as habit-formation.  Viraya truly happens when the meditation becomes automatic.  There need not be any initial period of 'forcing it.'  Sukkha does not arise until the entire mind & body system are saturated with piti.  The metaphor is slowly sprinkling water onto a piece of dough.  

Piti and sukha do arise at random times both in and out of meditation.  However, the goal of meditation is to learn to directly associate the arising of the factors with the turning of the attention towards the breath.  This way, they can be consistently triggered.  
Chris, modified 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 1:19 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 1:13 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:

He also explained the seven factors of enlightenment in an incredible way.  ...  Instead of thinking of viraya as effort, he has guided me to think of it as habit-formation.  Viraya truly happens when the meditation becomes automatic.  There need not be any initial period of 'forcing it.'

Avoiding contrived and concerted effort is my driving force.  If there's a drive to do something, I permit it if I have time for it.  Example:  I sat down on the couch with a book (spectrum of consciousness) and opened to a page and began reading.  Two thirds of the way down the page, I let myself get stuck staring at the word "we" to the exclusion of all else.  It's unavoidable that surrounding words were visible ("...we are all one...") and while at times my eyes unfocused and crosssed to transpose the words, I kept the attention squarely on the word "we".  This went on for at least a half an hour and came to a natural conclusion.  During this, I was listening to sounds, feeling the posture, hearing and feeling my breath, noticing the thoughts that come up while looking at these words, etc.  There was the preceeding intention to read at all, a previous intention to read the previous words, and the future intention to continue reading past this word, then the further future intention to stop reading.  None of these existed at the prolonged moment.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 2:03 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 2:03 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris, 

This sounds like a really cool off-cushion practice.  Way to follow your intuition!  I think I have some similar experience with moments of daily-life mindfulness such as those.  After awhile, certain objects of attention naturally sort of pique in their use, and one moves on.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 9:52 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/12/16 9:52 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/12

-I was walking out of work when I heard and felt some dirt crumblling beneath my feet.  Suddenly the whole physical word felt very real and immediate.  I could feel my skeleton, and the various organs of my body shifting around as I moved.  There was a more deep feeling of relaxation than previous times when this type of state has occured.  There was some type of joy or fascination with the world around me, as well as the body.

Other than this highlight, the direct mode practice is working really well.  While it is not always this good, I can feel how keeping my hand on the "dead man's switch is working", as well as "paying my tolls at the booth."  This latter one means that as long as you are willing to give up the imaginative/mental aspects of thoughts and emotions, you will be free to experience the immediacy of them as they occur in the body.  In this immediacy, there is minimal to no suffering.

-I have also gotten into deep states through anapanasati several times today.  Its working really well.  I needed to understand how the practice develops, in order to have the patience to actually do it.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/13/16 6:55 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/13/16 6:55 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/13

Direct mode:

-Everything feels very quiet.  I am able to continuously feel the body as one, whole chunk.  Thoughts and emotions are felt as ripples within this chunk, and frequently do not 'break off' to become independent, psychic entities.  There is an indifference, whereby they could if they wanted to, but they do not want to.  This practice feels much less repressive than similar practices I have engaged in, because as long as one's awareness is in the body, one is connected to the immediacy of the present moment in a way that honors the complexity of what lies within the subconscious.

Anapanasati:

-Best session today involved the mind being encased in a quiet bubble.  The sense of the body was lost, and awareness widened to fill a larger, physical space.  There was more cool bliss than hot pleasure.  Normally I would call this '3rd jhana.'  There was than an intuitive sense that I could 'go farther', if I allowed the meditation to take me where it wanted.  I would call the state I shifted into '4th jhana.'  However, I am losing faith in the jhana numbering system.  What seems more prevalant in terms of mapping concentration practice, are the relative levels, and maturities, of the factors of enlightenment.  Another reliable factor seems to be the mind's ability to continue to focus on the objet of attention without hindrances.  Credit Culadasa for that one.  

So, even though there were medium-strength absorption factors in this meditation, there is still stuff to work on.  Most notably, mental talk and imaging were taking place as distractions.  Also, there was a deeper-seated sense of agitation tied up with the witness that was not being soaked in the piti.  I need to sit for long enough for this to arise.  Only then, will true sukha occur.  Furthermore, I need to keep training the intertwined associations of sati and piti.  Meaning, it is not good enough to have piti factors arise, but with shitty mindfulness.  They need to be consistently linked such that whenever I focus on the breath, the mind automatically quiets, and a deeper joy arises.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/15/16 12:45 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/14/16 7:14 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/14

Anapanasati:

Just had another really strong concentration sesh.  I was totally out of body, staring down at myself, then it felt like my awareness was a cloud filling the room, then it felt like I was lying horizontally (when I was really sitting upright) just sort of floating above the ground like the Exorcist girl.  The thing I am doing differently is purposely breathing with joy, not just nuetrally observing the breath.  Sometimes I narrate to myself "breathing in joy... breathing out relaxation."  Also, keep focusing on the breath way past the point where it might not be necessary anymore.  Keep deepening the absorption effects, like 20X overkill.  The session ended soon after I felt this orgasmic hot energy buzzing through my whole body.  Niiiice.

I think the whole point is to retrain the brain to associate the breath with pleasure with concentration and mindfulness.  Each one becomes intertwined, and that way the breath becomes a trigger to get deeper and deeper concentration.  Then one has to sit in the concentration state for long periods of time to slowly change the body chemistry and mental atmosphere, and such.
_________

The initial purpose of sitting for long periods is to train the mind to be able to enter concentration states.  This means one can not spend the whole time battling the hindrances.  Then there is no point.

The later purpose of sitting for long periods is to let the mind soak in concentration states.

Either way, sitting is supposed to pleasurable.  It has taken me many years to discover this truth.  

______________

Direct Mode:

I am feeling more and more committed to this practice.  In Hinduism, one form of "puja" is to light a fire for the gods.  One aspect of this particular practice is to energetically 'throw' aspects of one's ego into the fire, to be burned and transformed into higher spiritual energy.  I feel that this type of bent is necessary for the direct mode practice.  In other words, there comes a point where all internal content (thoughts and emotions) become extra stuff preventing you from becoming most intimate with the present moment.  This practice is just a skillful lens.  I am not trying to eliminate all affect.  However, I am certain that it does lead to some sort of permanent shift in those that commit to it (after 4th path).  

In this spirit, everything continues to be quiet.  Thoughts and emotions are ripples on the greater energy mass that is the body.  There seem to be several different states that could be identified as the 'cutting edge.'  One is the 'skeleton'/physically oriented state I have described a couple days in a row.  The other seems to one in which there is prominent affective energy, but there is no stance or preference for or against it, and it is only registered in the body.  From this lens, I feel as if anything could happen to me in life, and it would be processed as an expression of peace.  The middle-edge, or pre-cutting-edge seems to be the point where I say "I am willing to give up thinking/emoting on this subject right now, and instead experience the physicality and energetic, sensory truth of this moment."
Chris, modified 8 Years ago at 1/15/16 6:55 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/15/16 5:30 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
1/14

Anapanasati:

The thing I am doing differently is purposely breathing with joy, not just nuetrally observing the breath.  Sometimes I narrate to myself "breathing in joy... breathing out relaxation."  
Another one for you to try (if you want): "(while breathing in) the out-breath has ended, (while breathing out) the in-breath has ended". Flipping which is which is more engaging because it feels unnatural. Done quickly with "out, in".  I did this for three and a half hours after suggesting it here.  Has certain qualities to it, the most obvious being 1) no obligation to note anything for the duration of the breath once the flip has been noted; and 2) not holding the breath (notice breath being held -> note next step -> do it), and of course, 3) noticing the continuity of what happened before and what's about to happen.  Seems to slow things down.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/16/16 1:41 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/15

Anapanasati:

Kept using the pointer "breathing in joy, breathing out relaxation."  I am learning how to very carefully 'tune the lute,' i.e. subtly sense when I am putting too much effort in, and tone it down.  I notice I tend to put about as much attention energy on the mental talk of my pointer, as I do on the sensation of the breath.  I have also noticed this with vipassana, when I have made the most progress by actually allowing myself to temporarily engage in internal narrative, in order to conceptually 'figure things out', instead of just unilaterally noting everything.  This collection of experiences is giving me the firm conviction that thinking is an important tool for meditation progress, rather than just being a hindrance.

Anyway, this time I began to feel that my physical body was growing in size.  There was also a pleasant tension in my abdomen, and in my limbs.  I was beginning to see a faint image of my expanding body glowing, on my mental screen.  There was also this viscerally-felt memory of a stressful night of studying in college, that popped up.  It was paired with the thought that 'college was really fucking stressful for me.'  I then had the sense that I was releasing some of this stress by naturally re-processing it at the deep level where it was stored in the first place.  I have hope that by getting into, and soaking in, absorption states, I will begin to heal, in this way.  

Direct Mode:

Grounded agitation as it rippled through the limbs.  Fairly quiet other than that.  A low-lying but continuous stress in the body.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/16/16 11:38 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/16

-So I realized that the direct mode is not a particularly 'new' or 'special' practice leading to some unique result.  The body just serves as a useful proxy for the immediacy of the present moment.  Kenneth's instructions are just useful pointers for how to stay in the body while off-cushion, and not get lost in thoughts and emotions.  But it is this immediacy which actually flips the switch that brings one deeper into not-self.  And there is no reason to think that I can not get deeper into not-self in a meaningful way, otherwise I would be assuming I had "the real fourth path,"  and that I had actually reduced suffering as much as is humanly possible; how arrogant woud that be? :p  Anyways, it can be useful to conceptualize in this way.  I have only been able to get real progress with techniques that have made intellectual sense to me.  

I conclude that the majority of my off-cushion practice should emphasize the initial pointers of staying in the body.  Much less focus should be on intuitively grokking what I am not seeing about not-self.  And even less should be on trying to 'figure out' how this all fits in with the path models, and what it will do for my life.  So the trust/faith part comes in with allowing myself to pour all my energy into staying in the body, instead of obsessing about what will come to pass.  Que sera, sera....

_______________

-When I have fruition-type moments where there is kundalini invading my mental screen and then I merge with it for a moment, and then it feels like my energetic system is rewiring itself, and there is this sense of anticipation of what will come next....

I realize that all of these moments are completely empty, just subjective experiences. But there is nothing but subjective experience, with no subject on 'this side,' being the reciever.  And in fact, when those special sensations occur, they are actually just being held by this container called emptiness, which is really not a container, and can not be described WITH words, but IS words, as they are being used, and also IS the mental associations those words call up, and also IS the original physicalities those words were designated to describe.  I can feel this intuitive veil separating me from this emptiness in a wierd way.  I am not real.  I am just this spontanous hologram arising.

___________________

Random thought that is hypocritical and goes against all my other thoughts but I feel like sharing it anyway:

Maybe there is no point in trying to improve my experience through insight practice, because insight practice is just a clear camera snap shot of what experience is.  You can up the clarity on the lens, but you can't change the contents of what you are looking at with a camera.  Should I be doing more insight?  I don't know.  I don't know if I want a clearer picture of my mind and life at this time.

Maybe 'suffering' is the wrong word for what insight practice lessens.  Maybe the word should be 'fuzziness' or 'lack-of-clarity.'  Maybe I should spend my time doing concentration, metta and material pursuits, and not think about, or do insight practice??

These thoughts arose out of another fruition like the one I had a few days ago which granted me some insight into the relativity of all lenses and aspects of experience.  I had more of those types of insights after this event, and then felt my heart chakra open and then I cried for a bit.  Then I listened to Pearl Jam's "Alive."  This is all very corny, and starting to get very old.  

I also had the thought that 'this is my experience, and I'm not going to be able to escape from it, even though thats what I want to do... but some day, this experience will end, and how do I want to live my life until that happens??"  -- this is actually the thought that preceeded the crying.

I realize that I just don't like my experience and how my mind 'ticks.'  I hate how my mind 'ticks.'  But its all I have. 
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/17/16 12:17 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/17/16 12:11 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Maybe there is no point in trying to improve my experience through insight practice, because insight practice is just a clear camera snap shot of what experience is.  You can up the clarity on the lens, but you can't change the contents of what you are looking at with a camera.  Should I be doing more insight?  I don't know.  I don't know if I want a clearer picture of my mind and life at this time.


Noah, insight practice is meant to help you uncover how your experiencxe is constructed - how mind creates it moment by moment. If you're calling that "seeing more clearly" then that's fine, but I get the impression from your comments that you mean something different, in which case you are not describing insight practice. For example, what do you mean by "change the contents of what you are loooking at..."?

Also - I'm noticing that you continue to bounce around a lot with practice methods and desires. It looks like some pretty intense seeking. Have you figured out what you're looking for?

I also had the thought that 'this is my experience, and I'm not going to be able to escape from it, even though thats what I want to do... but some day, this experience will end, and how do I want to live my life until that happens??"  -- this is actually the thought that preceeded the crying.

It's accurate that you cannot escape your experience but you're certainly not alone in wanting to. That exact feeling is what led me to start a meditation practice way back when. The thing to do, I would humbly suggest, is to try to uncover what makes you feel that way (and how your experience is built - see last comment). Not to run from it, but to examine it, understand it, and thus be able to live with it or maybe even overcome it. All the while being kind to yourself as much as possible.

Metta, serious, hard core metta to you.

Sorry to interrupt,  but I think clarity is important.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/17/16 8:53 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/17

-I have the feeling today that my current experience is not that much different than any other experience I ever will have, or have had in the past.  It also seems like it must be relatively similar to everyone else's experience.  In other words, there are certain commonalities to the way all of human experience is constructed.  Also, the qualities of people I admire are experienced similarly, by them,  as are the qualities that I hate about myself, and I experience.  Future me is not that much different from past me.  Different situations all have a similar taste.

________________

-Reflections on Bhikku Buddhadasa's Anapanasati Bhavana:

This book has hundreds of pages about training and adjusting the mind, both on and off the cushion, to prepare it for samatha.  The many distinctions such as sloth vs agitation, or sensual desire vs renunciation, all have, as their solution, the middle way.  The point of reading these sections of the book is obviously not to memorize all the different categories of mind states.  Rather, what I am getting from it is that intuitively feeling out, and enacting a balanced approach to meditation, is a critical skill for samatha.  While vipassana can be practiced from any mind state, samatha requires rarified conditions.

Another thing I am getting from it is how much fucking breadth and depth samatha practice really does have.  It is at least as complex as vipassana.  This quote from rapper MF Doom comes to mind: "the more you know, the more you know you don't know shit..."  What I thought I knew about the jhanas is all being reconsidered as I get more serious about mastering them.  Even getting to a really good first jhana is a pretty big deal, involving all five factors being effectively synergized.  There are different definitions/models for jhana which vary, and the important takeaway seems to emphasize the process of getting into, and staying in meditation, rather than labelling or numbering the meditation state once you're in it.  

In my experience, pure vipassana (such as Mahasi noting) doesn't really require much adjustment to mentality or perspective before practicing.  Instead, it is all about how these things change as a result of the process of gaining insight.  The first part of samatha practice is the development of calmness in daily life leading into meditation.  There is an art and a science to this that is featured in the book. 
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/17/16 4:14 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah, were you replying to my comment? I can't tell.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/17/16 8:08 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris:

Noah, were you replying to my comment? I can't tell.


I was not.  Sorry, that was sloppy of me.


Also - I'm noticing that you continue to bounce around a lot with practice methods and desires. It looks like some pretty intense seeking. Have you figured out what you're looking for?


I actually have two reliable practices for the first time since July.  By reliable I mean practices I am able to recieve regular coaching in, from people who have found them to be transformative.  So that is really helpful to curb some of the intensity of my seeking.  At a conventional level, the intensity has been occuring due to an anxiety of not having a structure to my practice.  At a fundamental level, I can see that this intensity is present at all times, in some form or another.  

Also, last night, I had another one of those fruition-type experiences you and I have been discussing.  It was accompanied by an insight that I think is the one you have been trying to point out to me.  The effect continuing into today is the understanding of the way the mind creates all experience.  It feels like both my hopes and my fears share a similar quality of constructed experience, and that nothing is outside of this experience.  So I think I am making some progress in the way that you might mean.  At the very least, the experiences of conditionality I have been having lately are previews of coming attractions.  And yes, I can see how it is not about escaping my experiencing, but rather about understanding it.    
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/22/16 11:58 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/22

-Still doing anapanasati.  Some jhanic territory arising.  Seems out of my control, as I am more likely to get into it when in a stint of hypomanic days, than when depressed.  My long term goal is to have hard jhana perfectly under my control, but I acknowledge that it could take me years.

Also still doing direct mode, after taking a break for a couple days.  There might have been some legitimate mini-shift from it last week.  Not sure.  Not waiting for a big shift, and also not doing it intensely, all day long.  Just for part of the day.

-Working on morality stuff as well.  I think I've given up on meditation curing bipolar disorder.  I believe it is possible but probably decades of practice away.  This is a life-long journey of brain hacking.  You can't rush it.  Without the promise of a new plateau looming over the horizon, I have begun to get out of the house more, exercising, socializing, and doing other healthy things.  It is nice to live in a city, be young, etc.  Enjoying life takes work sometimes, and thats okay.  I have also begun to apply for 'big boy' jobs.  Its about time.  The phobia does seem to have completely disappeared.  Can't bartend forever. :p
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/23/16 5:12 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/23

-As of late, my thoughts about meditation have geared towards stripping away more concepts to create a leaner and cleaner view of the equation.
          a) There is no such thing as a true 'third path,' but there is an initial, permanent opening that occurs after 2nd path.  
          b) There is no such thing as a true 'fourth path,' but there is a follow-up, permanent opening, that establshes a certain sense of peace with the present moment, a clarity regarding the mechanics of the perceptual process, and an intuitive sense of completion.  There are definitely lots of other openings that can occur after this.  However, there is less linearity to the mapping of these openings.  Theoretical 'fourth path' would mean that awareness would always be present, at all times, with no limitations.  
          c) There is no such thing as morality training or 'sila,' on the supramundane level (which is the only level that should matter to serious practitioners).  Mundane sila is simply a political effort to preserve the dharma and the sangha, and it worked, which was good.  However, there is no objective truth to it.  Supramundane sila just means optimizing life situations for effective brain hacking.  Supramundane sila involves how one feels about things like speech, action and lifestyle, not about the specific content of those things.

-Still doing anapanasati.  Good jhana today.  Not stressing it, just making it a daily habit.

-Some interesting experiences with direct mode today.  Boundaries between inside and outside disappeared for ten minutes.

-Doing good morality stuff.  I tried giving up on curing bipolar with meditation a few days ago, and so far it has worked to spur me into action.  Because if I'm not waiting for full enlightenment to make life easy, then I have to deal with things as they are now.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/24/16 1:08 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/24

-Some interesting experience last night, possibly continuing into today.  Fairly intense moment on energy pressing back into my mental screen, with little to no thinking, possibly for as long as twenty seconds, with perhaps a couple interspersed bits of true loss of consciousness.  Might have been one of the more convincing events I have had that meet the criteria for a 'fruition.'  Some insight into how my subjective bubble is created, is totally relative, and totally separate from everyone elses.  A degree of calmness, equanimity and clarity in relation to this insight.  Also had a newfound depth of clarity with regards to how thought ripples become emotion ripples, all within the subjective bubble.  Overall I feel more "distance" from all of this stuff, and it seems like less of a big deal and all more generic.  I seem to be having a lot of these mini-shifts lately.  My hope is that they will snowball into something substantial.
Mark, modified 8 Years ago at 1/25/16 5:39 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:

          c) There is no such thing as morality training or 'sila,' on the supramundane level (which is the only level that should matter to serious practitioners).  Mundane sila is simply a political effort to preserve the dharma and the sangha, and it worked, which was good.  However, there is no objective truth to it.


Hi Noah,

There seems to be an assumption that "objective truth" exists, do you have examples of objective truths ?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/25/16 1:11 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Mark:

Hi Noah,

There seems to be an assumption that "objective truth" exists, do you have examples of objective truths ?


Yo.  Maybe objective truth is too strong a term.  I just meant to convey a recent realization that sort of tied up some internal debate I've had regarding morality.  Most importantly, I think there is an aspect to sila that really matters in terms of deep practice.  That is the supramundane sila training, in which joy, looseness and relaxation are prioritized properly in daily life, such that jhana is most easily entered on-cushion.  A useful assumption for me is that this is what the Buddha would have really been teaching.  The precepts, karma, merit, and rebirth would have been later, cultural adaptations that would mostly been in place to protect the dharma and sangha in the coming decades and centuries.  

The emotional component to conventional living would therefore be synonymous with 'the middle path.'  In the context of modern culture, the discipline required to follow the precepts would be analogous to the exteme of asceticism in ancient India.  After all, most people do not do fasting or self-mutilation as a spiritual practice these days.  However, they do make it into a chore, and make being a buddhist a conceptual-personal identity with all these fake rules.  The other extreme of hedonism is what most conventional-mainstream-non-meditator people are doing these days.  

So the middle path means not indulging and also not disciplining.  It means actually being content with less external stuff because you get more skilled at feeling less internal stress regardless of conditions.  This is as close as I can get to an 'objective' understanding of how the Buddha taught sila.

p.s.- If I remember correctly, you're a good philosopher and debator, and I am not.  Feel free to tear me up regarding the use of the term 'objective,' but dont expect a skillful retort!
Mark, modified 8 Years ago at 1/26/16 5:54 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Mark:

Hi Noah,

There seems to be an assumption that "objective truth" exists, do you have examples of objective truths ?


Yo.  Maybe objective truth is too strong a term.  I just meant to convey a recent realization that sort of tied up some internal debate I've had regarding morality.  Most importantly, I think there is an aspect to sila that really matters in terms of deep practice.  That is the supramundane sila training, in which joy, looseness and relaxation are prioritized properly in daily life, such that jhana is most easily entered on-cushion.  A useful assumption for me is that this is what the Buddha would have really been teaching.  The precepts, karma, merit, and rebirth would have been later, cultural adaptations that would mostly been in place to protect the dharma and sangha in the coming decades and centuries.  

The emotional component to conventional living would therefore be synonymous with 'the middle path.'  In the context of modern culture, the discipline required to follow the precepts would be analogous to the exteme of asceticism in ancient India.  After all, most people do not do fasting or self-mutilation as a spiritual practice these days.  However, they do make it into a chore, and make being a buddhist a conceptual-personal identity with all these fake rules.  The other extreme of hedonism is what most conventional-mainstream-non-meditator people are doing these days.  

So the middle path means not indulging and also not disciplining.  It means actually being content with less external stuff because you get more skilled at feeling less internal stress regardless of conditions.  This is as close as I can get to an 'objective' understanding of how the Buddha taught sila.

p.s.- If I remember correctly, you're a good philosopher and debator, and I am not.  Feel free to tear me up regarding the use of the term 'objective,' but dont expect a skillful retort!
I'm fairly convinced that the idea of an objective truth or something absolute is misleading. I think there are truths but every truth is limited to a context i.e. there is no way to ground something as an absolute. 

I see morality as something that emerges from interactions between people. Things like joy, looseness, relaxation and jhana are not to be neglected but we should see the self centered perspective they assume. 

Seeing through the concept of self makes mundane morality more important not less, also seems to make the supramundane less important not more. Bizarre.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/26/16 5:42 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/26

-Working with 3 pointers:
          1) "breathing in joy... breathing out relaxation..."
          2) Imagine each new breath as if it were your first breath after a deep-sea free-dive and you just surfaced for air... feel the satisfaction of each new breath
          3) appreciate the whole in-breath and out-breath with a physical smile, like the image of a lion smiling as it sun bathes

I worked with these pointers for 2 seperate one hour sits yesterday, and 1 30 minute sit today.  After about 30 to 40 minutes, I am able to fall into some sort of relaxation reaction.  I used to think this was the 11th nana.  I now know that that is a separate process.  It is also separate from getting into hard jhana accidentally, which may or may not happen spontaneously at various points in the sit.  Rather, this is the process of doing the ground-work on the mind and body which becomes the platform upon which one can get into hard jhana consistently and willfully.

I also feel so relaxed after these sits that it reminds me that a less-conditioned type of satisfaction is possible.  This is one of the purposes of meditation in Buddhism, as it then leads into daily life, making one want to think, act and speak in ways that will continue this embodied calmness.  This is the true purpose of sila: getting your whole being on board with the work of entering jhana.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/27/16 2:32 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/27

silabatta paramasa:
          -sila=moral conduct
          -vata/bata=religious duty
          -paramasa=a contagion... connotation of 'mishandling the dharma'

This, the 3rd fetter, refers to the act of misinterpreting morality training... thinking and acting as if abiding my specific rules or habits will be enough to relieve one from stress, or will be the solution.  Thinking that correct action in one area of life will transfer some sort of 'merit' to other areas.  This includes the framework that sitting meditation will have an effect on daily-life/walking-around perception, without off-cushion mindfulness. 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/30/16 5:09 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/29

-I finally have all the answers I have been looking for regarding the relationship between the three trainings.  I started this log about 10 months go and have spend 100's of hours thinking and writing about this stuff in an effort to alleviate some of the pain I have felt in my life, especially after the aimless quality that occured after technical 4th path.  The 8fold path is about attacking stress on every level.  To do this, you have to understand it on every level,  which really necessitates understanding the relationship between the various levels.  Stress is like a machine that has to be dissected and then put back together, because you can't live without it, but you can at least see through it.

Our cullture and economic system is built around lack and limitation.  These systems are constructed based around inequality, originating in the minds of stressed out individuals who are unable to interpret animalistic survival mechanisms as just that, and not instruction guides on how to live life.  In turn, on the personal level, we are each experiencing our own versions of these survival instincts, within our own minds, moment by moment, and are also directly inflicting these emotions on others, in interpersonal communication.  Buddhism is really about being totally devoted to stopping as much of this stress as possible.  A big part of this stress machine is tied up in dualistic perception, which is what pragmatic dharma seeks to eliminate.  

Overall, suffering occurs because we burden ourselves unnecessarily.  By seeing how optional so much of our problems really are, we can make the conscious choice to release them.  In a very grounded, hyper-realistic way, all of life's issues must be dealth with, but there is a subtle way that the proper understanding can deflate them, and the proper angle of attack can help form empowered strategies.  In short, this is not spiritual bypassing.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/30/16 10:17 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/30

-1 hr., anapanasati

-30 min., anapanasati

I am getting better at breathing in joy, and breathing out relaxation.  I find my energy field and body actually doing these things, rather than just imagining them.  I didn't get any jhana all throughout either sit today, but I don't think that matters.

-30 min., anapanasati... had some flashes of clarity, some agitation, some boredom, some pleasure
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/31/16 10:08 AM
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I finally have all the answers I have been looking for...

This ought to raise some red flags....

emoticon
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/31/16 2:50 PM
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@Chris:

Perhaps, but I'm not claiming a meditation attainment, just that declaring that I've finally found an explanation of the eightfold path that scratches my itch.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 1/31/16 8:35 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1/31

-The desire to purify is in human nature.  Its in the ancient Hindu and Jain traditions that were contemporaneous with Gotama, and it is certainly in the Abrahamic religions.  It is also in Buddhism, but I don't believe that this is what Gotama was originally teaching.  Rather, the purification stuff was thrust in later, along with the rest of the mundane level of training, so as to protect the monkhood and lay following from a variety of threats.  In that regard, it worked.

I find the desire to purify myself arising in my mind, every day.  I track my life as if it were a flow chart illustrating 'progress.'  Sometimes, I attempt to allow things to be more complex and messy, but even then I still hold on to the vision of an end point.  Perhaps the Buddha advised us to skip to the end point, the time when we release all our burdens and pressures, and allow ourselves to truly chill?  This manifests on the physical level with the way the monks embraced the habits of seclusion and contentedness, but also on the mental levels, where they trained themselves to get really good at 'letting go.'  There is also, of course, the most prominent level of all, the spiritual one, where they trained themselves the ditch the perceptual burden of basic duality.

The significance of mastery of the eightfold path lies in the ability to release stress at all levels.  To design one's lifestyle to this end; to be content with, and grateful for the results; to let go of paradigms and concepts that are tied in with human civilization on the macro, and human nature on the micro; to reprogram one's brain and body chemistry (as well as rewrite the subconscious) towards the relaxation/positivity end of the spectrum; and eventually to completely delete all the ways that perceptual duality has imprisoned the sensory categories.  

However, none of this has to do with being in pain now to be in pleasure later.  That is the fallacy of karma, the store-and-forward mechanism, heaven, retirement, etc.  Instead, this has to do with "lovely in the beginning, and lovely in the middle" as well.  Why not start living the good life now?

p.s.- Intrinsic to Buddhism are teachings on anatta and dukkha.  Nothing is permanent and nothing is perfect.  You die in different ways every day and every moment, and there is nothing about your life that is not "messy."  Purification is about seeking perfection and immortality.  Buddhism is about being committed to the good life within the impermanent messiness of the here and now.

_____________________

anapanasati 30 min.: Being less perfectionistic and having a more relaxed outlook helps me be more relaxed in meditation.  I can feel the momentum building between sits as well.  There are less hindrances in my sits and going 'deeper' is happening quickly.  While my ability to consciously relax is directly correlated with my efforts to do so, the occurence of access concentration and first jhana seems less predictable/indirect.  I don't know what to make of this, but good things are happening regardless, so I'm not too worried about it.
_______________________

anapanasati 1.5 hrs
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/2/16 4:18 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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2/2

The 8fold path is basically a set of attitudes or stances or opinions that help one let go of clinging in different areas of life.  The point of the 'dukkha' characteristic is that it calls us to action; nothing in life is worth clinging to!  However, this understanding must be paired with the 7 factors of enlightenment, particularly sati and piti.  It becomes much easier to not cling when you give your mind something else to do instead; be joyfully mindful.  This is the new technique I'm working with, and the new map basically involving retraining the brain: untraining the hindrances by tossing them out whenever they begin to arise, and retraining the mind into the habit of being joyfully mindful.  Eventually the brain pathways that guide one to feel desire, anger, laziness, worry and doubt, begin to literally decay.  Also, the mindful joy becomes automatic, rather than requiring any effort, aka it becomes a new pathway.

There are so many sub aspects to this practice that I am grateful for, the least of which is the basic understanding of what the 8fold path actually is.  I realize that without all these small pieces that make up the big picture, I would not simply be able to develop joy and mindfulness in daily life.  In other words, one has to understand why they are doing it.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/3/16 9:16 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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2/3

-anapanasati 20 min.: It was supposed to be 30 min., but I felt really impatient.  Part of the 8fold-path framework I am working with is being willing to not self-flagellate.  For most Westerners, formal sitting meditation becomes an irksome task that is basically equivalent to the ascetic practices in the Buddhas time.  Following the middle path means not allowing this.  The other aspect is being willing to not live by 'rules.'  In this case, setting a timer puts an artificial boundary on meditation.  If I quit before that time, I must not make a decision about the experience as 'good' or 'bad,' but insted be willing to rest in the open ambiguity of the here-now.  This part is actually harder than forcing myself to sit through the hindrances.  

-seclusion: Seclusion is helpful when you allow it to be pleasurable.  This means recognizing that you have less burdens when you're secluded.  You must feel joyful: lighter.  It also helps to have the idea that it might be okay to live a little bit like a monk, after all.  emoticon

-anapanasati 30 min.: Sat through it, this time.  Towards the end, reached access concentration.  It felt like my mind finally wanted to stay present, of its own accord, rather than me having to use the breath to coax it do so.  It happened in relation to the thought, "I don't have to make a decision about this meditation right now."  Instead, I decided to just watch, without technique.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/19/16 9:28 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Exploring local, meditation groups:

There are a dizzying number of meditation temples, clubs, classes, etc. in Seattle.  Going by lineage/school, there is Rinzai Zen, Soto Zen, Korean Zen, Pureland (X2), Triratna, Non-sectarian, Shambhala (Tibetan), American Vipassana, Kadampa (Tibetan), Karma Kagyu (Tibetan), Sri Chinmoy-based, Kriya Yoga, Thich Nhat Hanh-based, 3HO (Kundalini Yoga), Sahaja (Hindu), Nichiren, Non-Dual, Ramakrishna-based, TM, Sanbo Kyodan (Rinzai+Soto), Osho-based, and more!

I am not trying to pick one particular sangha or find a teacher.  I just like going to sit with other people, and have conversations afterwards, even if they get super-mushroomy.  Other considerations are whether the location or any of the people seem to have any energetic charge/shakti, and how friendly people are.  I will probably stick within Buddhism for now.   I don't think there are many well known teachers who are based in Seattle other than Rodney Smith of Seattle Insight.  Perhaps I will find a couple more.  

I also wonder about the statistics of awakenings within these sanghas.  Curiosity arises when I visit some of these places (so far: Shambhala, Rinzai and Korean Zen), seeing how there are always senior teachers leading the groups.  What percentage of these leaders have SE? 2nd?  Openings past 2nd?

I am also curious to see if I could come into contact with any 'underground' sanghas, through the grapevine.  Growing up, my parents would bring me to this incredible, diverse meditation and chanting group called "Center Heart" in central New Jersey, that was completely underground.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/22/16 3:58 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Some thoughts on my current process:

Things I have overcome/dramatically reduced (or even eliminated, in some cases):
-Flooding agitation (at technical 4th path)
-Most phobias- i.e. applying to jobs, and making effort to meditate, eat healthy, or clean (more recently)
-Lesser agitation in limbs/restlessness (more recently)
-Overwhelming libido (more recently)

Things I still struggle with:
-Craving for social contact
-Lesser libido
-Obsessing/ anxious lines of thought, including knowing which things to prioritize in life
-Some phobias- i.e. reading news, social media

According to Rd, all of these things can be eliminated by the supramundane dhamma, specifically, the gladdening breath.  I am determined to knock these items off, one by one.  I am sure that I am on a path to success.  Also, now that I can finally do formal sitting meditation, with the recent overcoming of physical restlessness, it is time to get really good at it.  There are lots of reasons to want to do this.  One is to align more of my sub-minds to the moment, as Culadasa would say.  Another is for the long term project of traversing more stages of insight, ala the awareness-traditions, such as Mahamudra.  A third is because, within Rd's model, mindfulness becomes a constant, automatic way of being, through this work.  

It just helps to remind myself of all the things I have to gain, to fire up my motivation.  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/23/16 3:12 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I am practicing something new.  Rd told me to be mindful all day long, but also to be joyful.  That was a new idea for me.  To do this, it can't feel like "work."  And to do that, I have to realize a truth about consciousness: namely, that I am always aware anyway, and that it need not require any extra "stress" to turn this awareness into mindfulness.  I think of a catch phrase like "easy money," i.e. getting paid to do nothing; all I have to do is go about my day, doing what I would do anyways, but adding in this extra mindfulness, and I will be training my brain for the better (the money part).  This is especially useful for formal sits.  When hindrances arise, I don't necessarily need to gladden the mind; sometimes all that is needed is for me to ask myself, "is this actually stressful right now?"  There is no problem, of course.  
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 2/24/16 12:33 AM
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Out of curoisty, did Rd say anything in particular about where these practices hopefully lead towards? 
-Eva
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/24/16 11:06 AM
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Eva Nie:
Out of curoisty, did Rd say anything in particular about where these practices hopefully lead towards? 
-Eva

Yeah, joyful mindfulness becomes the new baseline as you stop practicing all the other ways of being.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/24/16 11:40 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Facing the Reality of the Need for "Social Masks:"

I had a major epiphany in relation to cause and effect yesterday.  A lot of my progress lately has been about "facing the facts" or a certain set of conditions, but then joyfully accepting that I must work within them, where I previously would have just gotten stressed out and clammed up.  One of these reality checks happened yesterday in the form of realizing that I need more of a social filter.  

I have always obsessively held to acting out one "character" or another in life, depending on what my primary goal was at the time.  I have been too obsessive to allow myself to externally operate multiple roles simultaneously, and tolerate the increasing sense of internal dissonance.  But that is exactly what I need to do.  

For instance, I know for a fact that a certain sense of confident, charisma is required for me to be successful in dating.  I can ''put this mask on'' anytime I want, but it is at the expense of all other mind states (so I would have to stop being joyfully mindful).  Last night that process "cracked" for me, and I was suddenly able to see through to the light on the other side: I can do both.  

The same is true for social communication.  I have previously, always spilled my guts to my close friends.  However, last night they just didn't get where I was coming from when I was talking about the Dhamma.  I realize that even with close friends, I need to have some sense of filter and purposely skillfully communicate.  It DOES take a little extra work to do this, and there IS a sense of dissonance.  But the key realization is that I have no other choice, which frees me up to gladden the mind anyway and proceed.  
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 2/24/16 11:14 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Eva Nie:
Out of curoisty, did Rd say anything in particular about where these practices hopefully lead towards? 
-Eva

Yeah, joyful mindfulness becomes the new baseline as you stop practicing all the other ways of being.
Ok, makes sense.   Thanx for writing all these tips.
-Eva
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/24/16 8:29 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Eva:

Ok, makes sense.   Thanx for writing all these tips.


My pleasure.  Figure I would expand a bit on what Rd says since you're interested.  Once joyful mindfulness becomes the new default, the goal is to be in first jhana all the time.  This means the joy (Piti) is so deeply ingrained that the mind-body completely lets go and relaxes, marking the development of a deeper sense of tranquility (Sukha and/or Passaddhi).  Eventually Ekaggata or one-pointedness arises from this deep sense of ease.  The one-pointedness or concentration is an open awareness rather than a tight focus.  With all the jhana factors in place, the state becomes a walking-around baseline of first jhana.  I should be clear that I have only just started to develop Piti, so I am just parroting theory here, not direct experience.  Also, Rd says you only have to develop up until Piti, and then the other factors of jhana (or alternately, factors of enlightenment) arise automatically.  Rd also specifies that first jhana is the only jhana that can be a walking-around experience, because after 1st, applied and sustained attention drop away, making one too absorbed to do anything else but be in jhana.  

I see similarities between this process and the one that Culadasa talks about in TMI, where Passaddhi persist in between sits until it is there all the time.  I also see similarities between Rd's process and Mahayana/Vajrayana awareness-based traditions such as Mahamudra, in which aspects of awareness are pointed out and eventually stabilized.  Rd's method definitely contrasts with the more linear, stage-based 16 nana's of the Visuddhimagga.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 2/24/16 9:39 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:


My pleasure.  Figure I would expand a bit on what Rd says since you're interested.  
Yes thank you, I am interested.  You seem to be taking a somewhat similar path with somewhat similar methods as I do.  That's probably why a lot of your ideas tend to expand or give a slightly different angle to what I am working on.  Not that I am saying other paths aren't also good for other people, but this way seems to work for me so it's what I am more interested in personally.   

Once joyful mindfulness becomes the new default, the goal is to be in first jhana all the time.  This means the joy (Piti) is so deeply ingrained that the mind-body completely lets go and relaxes, marking the development of a deeper sense of tranquility (Sukha and/or Passaddhi).  
Yes, it's kind of what I expected you to say but thought I'd ask anyway.  It makes sense that what you are practicing is what you will hopefully get full time.  Just wondered if it was supposed to be a prelude to something else like the stages in the paths.  But feeling good is certainly enough reward for the effort of practing feeling good.  ;-P  One thing I am not confident in though is my ability to differentiate accurately with correct labels the various good feeling states, piti, sukha, first jhana, etc.  I have experienced several different good feeling states in recent years that seem to be special kinds of  'off the seesaw' type states, but i don't know which labels, if any, they would accurately be called.   I have tried looking up the definitions of them but that has not done much to help me tell one from another or which ones I may have experienced.  I do know that PCE like state I have experienced seems to the pinnacle one so far, there is a strange kind of clarity where the space around my 3rd eye chakra feels wide open and free of 'clutter' for the first time.  (sorry for the woo but it's hard to describe)  Certainly over time, there has been movement in that general direction but the PCE type thing, there is a strong sense of this being the more correct and natural state of being.  Anyway, so I see that currently as being my general direction to head in and the types of methods you discuss do seem to help in that direction.   

Eventually Ekaggata or one-pointedness arises from this deep sense of ease.  The one-pointedness or concentration is an open awareness rather than a tight focus.  With all the jhana factors in place, the state becomes a walking-around baseline of first jhana.  I should be clear that I have only just started to develop Piti, so I am just parroting theory here, not direct experience.  Also, Rd says you only have to develop up until Piti, and then the other factors of jhana (or alternately, factors of enlightenment) arise automatically.  
Hm, not sure i know what counts as piti though!

Rd also specifies that first jhana is the only jhana that can be a walking-around experience, because after 1st, applied and sustained attention drop away, making one too absorbed to do anything else but be in jhana.
I could see that as likely.  There is sometimes a feeling where there is a strong desire to not think and a pleasure in not thinking.  It doesn't happen a ton but when it does, I could fairly easily just stop thinking and just hold still and forget about everything and feel a certain pleasure and relaxation.  But if one happens to be in the grocery story when the feeling comes over, there is going to be a limit in  how long I can safely indulge standing there immobile and zoned out!  ;-P  

I see similarities between this process and the one that Culadasa talks about in TMI, where Passaddhi persist in between sits until it is there all the time.  I also see similarities between Rd's process and Mahayana/Vajrayana awareness-based traditions such as Mahamudra, in which aspects of awareness are pointed out and eventually stabilized.  Rd's method definitely contrasts with the more linear, stage-based 16 nana's of the Visuddhimagga.
Rd may have the advantage of demystifying it a bit though.  ;-P 
-Eva
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/16 4:07 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Current Motivation:

I am having to re-up on my motivation for this more recent segment of my meditation journey.  I visualize two, alternate realities.  In one, I keep working my ass off and making spiritual progress.  I practice lots of mindfulness in daily life, lots of formal anapanasati, and I gladden the mind to foster an ever-more joyful baseline.  I work with Rd often enough to keep getting his feedback.  I end up achieving a new level of awakening (I will allow that to go unlabelled/undefined).  This allows me to feel a profound sense of peace and security in all areas of life, causing me to spiral upwards with my functioning.  Bipolar disorder is a distant memory.

In another reality, I make only moderate effort in all of the areas listed above.  I accept my current level of relief from suffering.  I focus mostly on the conventional elements of my life, getting absorbed into my career, friendships, a relationship, etc.  Varying degrees of anxiety, agitation, and obsessing are still present, but they are not nearly as bad as they used to be.

The way I see it, there are two types of meditators; those who are willing to do whatever it takes to succeed, and those who are not.  Thus far, I have kept to the first mode of practice.  I would like to continue.  Journaling with resolve in this way has been helpful in the past.  

P.s.-  As far as I can tell, almost everyone hates this way that I think, or finds it to be incredibly naive.  It works for me; thats all I care about.  Apologies in advance to anyone who would wish to dissuade me from this perspective, for I am set in my ways (alas).  
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/16 5:17 PM
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You realize that those are just stories you tell yourself, right? I hope, I really do hope, that you are aware that the univese is not actually broken into the bifurcated pieces you have been writing about lately. I also hope, really, really hope, that you are not heading into another collapse of a once promising practice vector. 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/16 11:47 PM
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Chris Marti:
You realize that those are just stories you tell yourself, right? I hope, I really do hope, that you are aware that the univese is not actually broken into the bifurcated pieces you have been writing about lately. I also hope, really, really hope, that you are not heading into another collapse of a once promising practice vector. 

Yes haha, my sanity is intact; these are 100% stories.  I'm just experimenting with different means to motivate myself.  Sort of just being my own coach here.  It seems less likely for this practice vector to collapse since I have good outside guidance, which I haven't had since Ron.  
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Laurel Carrington, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/16 9:45 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Who is everybody--people on this forum? People you know socially? I can't like or dislike the way you think because your mind works the way it works. I have from time to time thought about the kind of dichotomy you mention, between the serious people and the dabblers, to rephrase your comment. I suppose we could all get into a discussion of what "success" looks like, or whether there's a direct link between effort and result. What I get from your recent posts here is that you've eliminated a lot of suffering, but there's a lot left and you won't stop until you're satisfied, and maybe not even then. I am not bipolar, so I can't imagine what that would feel like, to be bipolar and practice hardcore dharma. 

I agree with Chris that you're telling yourself stories, which I suppose we all do. What I'd say is whatever story I might have told myself a year or a month ago is not the same story I tell now. The "sandbox" name for the thread suggests you are playing. This is a good way to think about it, playing around with ideas. You may not be as set in your ways as you think.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/26/16 11:54 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Laurel:

Who is everybody--people on this forum? People you know socially?


There have definitely been repeated instances on this forum when people have suggested that certain aspects of my perspective are misguided.  But also more recently I had a late night conversation with my room mate and his girlfriend and they seemed to be challenged or offended by the way my core attitudes orbit around self improvement.  By the way, I truly wasn't trying to be provocative with my comment above, it was mostly just my own mini-experiment with motivation.

What I'd say is whatever story I might have told myself a year or a month ago is not the same story I tell now. The "sandbox" name for the thread suggests you are playing. This is a good way to think about it, playing around with ideas.


Exactly!  The sandbox is a space for the discovery of skillful means.  What type of self-talk is most conducive to my own motivation?  What practice or stage model best fits my current experience?  Etc...

You may not be as set in your ways as you think.


Fair enough.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 12:06 AM
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@ Chris & Laurel:

I had another thought, in attempting to explain some of 'storytelling' here.  I have basically found that attitudes I took in competitive activities such as wrestling or academics have been surprisingly applicable to the meditative journey.  By baring my teeth to imaginary opponents, as well as to my past selves, I've found a big reservoir of energy to practice.  I don't know if that explanation makes me sound like any less of a nut.  
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 11:07 AM
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I don't know if that explanation makes me sound like any less of a nut.  

I keep hoping (that word again) that you are just posting a sort of stream of consciousness here. That a lot of what you say here is just idle talk, speculation and  general rambling. That said, there are themes that become clear to me as you do this, themes that you are seemingly unaware of, and once in a while I point that out. I hope it's not too annoying.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 11:48 AM
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I seem to be tag-teaming with Chris at this point in the thread.

What strikes me about your practice is how different it is from mine post-4th. I had no desire to practice at all. The seeker was gone. I can't say I was "satisfied" with my experience, in the sense of feeling that everything was settled, or that I had even arrived at what I thought my experience would be. But I could not crank up the Enlightenment Project again to save my life. This aversion went on for many months, and then a year or maybe even two years. I became less averse as time went on, and yet could not reestablish continuity with practice. 

Even so, shifts occurred. I closely watched my everyday experience and found new, deeper insights. They just happened. I have concluded that all of it takes its time, regardless of my efforts at establishing control. I think that part is true of all of us, whatever our paths look like. I am now 62 and I have many decades of self-improvement projects under my belt, and I'm sick of doing it. There's a vestige of the habit that jerks me around now and then, but I don't have the energy even to apply myself to the project of rooting it out. This is not a problem. In the meantime life is happening. I make plans and life still happens. There are no ducks to get in a row, never were, except in our limited imaginations. This doesn't mean there's no point in doing anything. People do whatever seems to make sense to them. 

I am am now practicing again, enjoying it, and it works for me to do that. You are gung-ho to get back into it, and apparently it works for you to do that. There is always more for us to learn, or unlearn, or acquire, or most of all, let go.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 11:51 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris:

I keep hoping (that word again) that you are just posting a sort of stream of consciousness here. That a lot of what you say here is just idle talk, speculation and  general rambling. That said, there are themes that become clear to me as you do this, themes that you are seemingly unaware of, and once in a while I point that out. I hope it's not too annoying.


At the risk of getting argumentative, Chris, I don't believe that I am as unaware of my patterns as you say.  Awareness does not necessarily cause patterns to change.  I have had hundreds of hours of successful psychotherapy in a variety of modalities.  Both of my parents are psychotherapists.  I grew up with a solid emotional vocabulary and a very strong introspective awareness naturally.  I spent thousands of hours noting in the past two years, and then reflecting on my findings with Ron.  I have definitely looked at my patterns in life.  I know how I get intense, and then tend to 'pop,' and abandon my efforts.  I know how I tend to over-categorize and over-classify things too rigidly.  I know how I tend to say things that sound clear to me and are not clear to others.  Etc., etc.  I have already had some inkling (or full understanding) of many of the things you have very wisely pointed out to me over time.  

My point is that there is a peak degree of insight one can get from clarifying the picture of one's life.  Eventually, it becomes time to actually start changing things in that picture.  I am on the second step, not the first.  The way you keep harping on the first step (noticing patterns, noticing how I 'tick', etc.) makes me think that you are stressing something which has worked very well for you, but is not necessarily the be-all-end-all for me.  That is not my style.  I am not about just looking and looking and looking and then somehow I will unravel a knot or something like that.  I have been there and done that.  Acting to change is the current M.o.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 12:04 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I'm sorry, Noah. I've angered you and put you in a defensive mode. I'm just seeing things and commenting. I assume, apparently incorrectly, that you want comments or you wouldn't be posting all your thoughts in a public place.

I'll stop.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 12:17 PM
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Chris Marti:
I'm sorry, Noah. I've angered you and put you in a defensive mode. I'm just seeing things and commenting. I assume, apparently incorrectly, that you want comments or you wouldn't be posting all your thoughts in a public place.

I'll stop.

I admit to being annoyed, but I do want to get back to my core disagreement with your statements.  You say that I must not be seeing my patterns because they continue, and if I really saw or understood them, they would not continue.  I am saying that that is not necessarily how the human mind works.  People can have full knowledge of their patterns, grokking them and analyzing them in three dimensions, and still not have any change to the operations of those patterns.  Sometimes looking works, sometimes it doesn't. 
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 12:31 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah, it's okay. I'm okay with you being angry at me and I'm okay that your mind doesn't work that way. My assumptions about what you can see and not see are wrong. I'm okay with that, too. As I said, I'll stop commenting.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 12:25 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I know this is your sandbox, but I'm hoping you won't object if I play. The game I want to play is what-if. What if I spent days and weeks lounging around in my bathrobe, eating junk food, bingeing on Netflix? What if I never accomplished another thing for the rest of my life? What if I lost my mind, developed dementia, had to have other people wipe my butt? What if I went on a nice, rambling holiday to nowhere in particular and enjoyed the sights, sounds, tastes, feelings, and smells along the way? What if WW III broke out, or the ice caps melted, and there were roving bands of starving people where I live, and I were starving myself? What if my husband and I ran out of money and became destitute? 

And so on. Why play this game? Why not? I, like you, have been analyzed up the wazoo. I, like you, found the exercise fruitful in some ways, but not the means to transformation I had hoped. Here's another what-if: What if I were angry most of the time, or in a panic state, or depressed, or suicidal? I know people who fit into every one of my what-ifs, if not personally, then by extension through what is now happening in other parts of the world. I myself have temporarily been in some of these what-ifs. The impulse is to say, I don't want to be any of these things, or maybe I might not mind being one of them (the holiday sounds nice). 

The anatta insight is "This is not me, this is not mine, this is not myself." All of it is impersonal. At the same time, I could claim all of it. I could claim my life, my history, my path, and still realize this is not me, this is not mine, this is not myself, and then let go. And let go of whatever is next. Maybe I will and maybe I won't. 
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Laurel Carrington, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 12:28 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Ha, I've been cross-posting. Sorry if this is irrelevant. I am speaking with myself most of all, the young person who wanted to be better, be best, take charge of my life. The poor thing who almost cracked up doing it. If that isn't you, I imagine some such people might be reading.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/4/16 1:46 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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@Laurel:  As a very belated comment, I just wanted to thank you for your participation, and declare that everyone is welcome to play, especially if they are going deep!
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/4/16 2:08 PM
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In a phone conversation with my dad yesterday, I reflected that I don't really like meditating.  I just got an internship, which should lead into a job within a few months.  All the other areas of my life are starting to come together.  Reaching this level of functioning is why I started noting in the first place.  It worked.

My dad reminded me it would be too soon to stop meditating, and that I was recently depressed.  I asked him if he thought my progress was just due to me growing up and maturing, or if it was due to meditation.  We both seemed to agree on the latter.  If it were just a life-stage thing, then contemplative work woud be a placebo, and the three months I spent on the actualism method would have helped me become more productive.  They did not.  

I resolved to keep the process going until reaching a point were there was no chance of full regression/instability ever again.  Meditation is just like a business transaction for me now; it is something I must do, in order to keep paying the bills (more and more effectively, at that).  That is not to say I don't enjoy it, the gladdening breath ensures that.  When I get to where I am going, I will have to decide whether or not I want to continue the spiritual journey.   I suspect I may choose to drop it.

P.s.- I have lost all interest in determining whether something is fundamental wisdom/insight/clarity, tranquility/continuity/stability/absorption, or ethics/sila/harmlessness.  Times when I have asked these questions have been times when I have not been as busy making improvements.  My understanding is that most mainstream and traditional Buddhist frameworks (including the legit ones) have the three trainings so damn intertwined that it doesn't make sense to discuss them separately.  I guess what I am saying is that I don't know what type of 'progress' I am looking for, its just life progress.  It all seems like one thing now.
Russell , modified 8 Years ago at 3/7/16 9:18 AM
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Noah:
When I get to where I am going...

Where are you going? What are you trying to "get"?  
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/8/16 3:28 AM
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Hi Russell,

When I verbalize my goals things tend to get messy, as illustrated in recent thread conversations (so I'll hold off).  

In terms of the direct pointing (towards "this moment is it, this reality, etc"), I acknowledge the value of observing patterns and accepting reality as it is, but thats not really the game I'm playing right now.  I would be pretty bummed out if I had to stay with my relative degree of psycho-spiritual development, even with an 'ultimate' perspective on the whole thing.
Russell , modified 8 Years ago at 3/8/16 9:01 AM
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From your other thread: "You should really consider not wanting things, Noah!"
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 3/8/16 12:34 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Russell .:
From your other thread: "You should really consider not wanting things, Noah!"
A bit oversimplified but you probably know that.  What I see in myself is if I want things TOO much, then I worry and get anxious about not getting them.  Then my quest for getting the thing is constantly dogged by fear and anxiety of failure.  The anxiety saps my energy and makes me tend to avoid things because if you don't do anything, then fear of failure is lessened.  Logically long term that is a sucker's game cuz it also leads to failure anyway but short term, it feels better than risking immediate failure.  Failure down the road is less anxiety inducing than failure soon. So what I see in myself is an ironic (but very comon in life)  tendency to be more efficient about accomplishing things if my desire is not too consuming such that  fear of failure is not  going to greatly impede my functioning. 

So I think what you see in life advise are various methods, some mentioned here,  to try to block that ironic viscious cycle.  You can try to attack the prob on the tail end where there is fear by working on lessening it (ex, worse case scenario, I bomb the interview but there will be other interviews, I am young yet with lots of time, etc).  You can try to lessen desire for control by having a belief in a higher power, God, fate, etc to help you, so you feel you need not fear or try to control because something else is driving anyway.   You can substance abuse until your brain forgets everything beyond 5 seconds ago (not recommended), you can try to break the bad  habit and substitute with new habits using various Buddhist and mindfulness techniques, etc.  

But looking at it from my perspective, the cycle of too strong desire resulting in at least partially debilitating anxiety is what a very large percentage of the population is struggling with daily, probably especially fueled in the USA by childhood conditioning to the effect of encouraging more and stronger wants.  If the anxiety is really crippling such that you can't take care of yourself, then you are labeled 'dysfunctional.'  If it is only partially crippling, such that you can limp along and pay our bills, keep yourself presentable, and not scare your neighbors, then you are 'normal.'  

But the goal in Buddhism, IMO, is to kick that anxiety to the curb and the only way that helps me do that  is to dial back desire to something closer to mere preference.  That allows me to operate without fear and anxiety, functioning is vastly easier and the energy that anxiety was sucking out of me is freed up for more useful things.   A better understanding of that cycle is why IMO 'lazy' people do not exist in the popular definition of the word, instead i think there are only people crippled to stand still from conflicting emotions, fears, etc that have so little understanding of self that don't know the way out or that there is any other way to start with. (also  personally in the past I have also had bouts of working really really hard on lots of things but just not on the few specific things I really needed to work on to really fix my crap, IMO that is an alternate form of avoidance than laziness but long term is just as much not going to solve the problem)
-Eva 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/12/16 12:02 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Eva:

But looking at it from my perspective, the cycle of too strong desire resulting in at least partially debilitating anxiety is what a very large percentage of the population is struggling with daily, probably especially fueled in the USA by childhood conditioning to the effect of encouraging more and stronger wants.  If the anxiety is really crippling such that you can't take care of yourself, then you are labeled 'dysfunctional.'  If it is only partially crippling, such that you can limp along and pay our bills, keep yourself presentable, and not scare your neighbors, then you are 'normal.'  


Very well said.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/22/16 2:02 PM
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3.22

I am having some interesting thoughts about positive emotion that are very similar to one's I had while practicing actualism.  The difference is that this time I have a teacher.  When I hear Richard describe the goosebumps he gets just by thinking of Piti, and see him get into fits of laughter over the simplest of things, I can't deny that he seems truly joyful.  Its the type of joy that I have had on the best days of my life, when I have felt truly accomplished, or received some wonderful present.  The eery thing about Richard is that he has this when there is nothing special occuring.  Its weird to think that developing this type of mind is even possible.  When I think of the joy I get from meditation, it pales in comparison to the aforementioned, materially-based joy.  So it is important for me to note that it obviously gets way better than what I am experiencing now.  Also that in the long run, nothing is really "given up" or "sacrificed," because everything that one loses is replaced by stronger, more reliable happy chemicals. emoticon
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/29/16 12:33 PM
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3.29

Thoughts on "Lineage":

What both of my longer-running meditation coaches have given me is the promise that 'this shit actually works,' bolstered by specific examples; 'it worked for him, it worked for her, it worked for my teacher, it worked for me, etc.'  This is what I consider to be the value of lineage.  I personally don't give a shit about things like "authentically tracing back to the Buddha," or the a certain belief system or set of rituals.  I don't even care about authorization and authority and all that hoo-haa.  Its just the living proof that matters to me.  For me, lineage is pretty much synonymous with the practical aspects a teacher brings to the table, including specifying why it works, how it works, how it doesn't work, and when it will start to work.  

It kind of scares me how much my current teacher's methods have in common with actualism,  I don't want to be doing actualism or affism.  However, his methods are much more effective; I have seen a lot more change in a similar amount of time.  But the main difference is the lineage proof.  With actualism I was in free fall because there were no instructors, and no examples of how well the method works.

P.s.- Another thing I don't care about, but used to, are how specific approaches to Buddhism fit together.  Buddhadasa's system is very different from Bill Hamilton's.  Both of them produce desirable results.  End of story.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 4/14/16 11:07 PM
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4.10

I am imagining a series of articles about "How to Interact With Mushroom Culture People," from a pragmatic dharma perspective.  Here are some initial thoughts on this:

-Whatever you want to say, tone it down.  Gradually reveal the depth of your practice over mutliple interactions with a person/multiple visits to a sangha.  
-Describe your direct experience, rather than using terms like nanas, jhanas, etc.
-Try to relate via the things everyone there can agree on (meditation is cool, Buddhism as a whole is helpful, community is fun and important, etc.).
-Ask people about their own practice (how long they've been in the sangha, what technique they are currently working with, etc.).
-Ask people about their lives outside of practice.

4.11

-Respect other people's practice.  I encounter people who have been meditating for decades who describe attainments that they simply don't have the terminology for.  

4.13

-Respect the rituals, understand their original function, and fit them into your own practice.  When I encounter chanting, I understand that it originally functioned as a memorization tool for novice monks, and later as a gateway to concentration.  It fits into my own practice because most chanting is basically saying "I like Buddhism and think it is helpful."  I agree with this statement.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 4/14/16 11:15 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 4/14/16 11:15 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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4.14

The Middle Way:

The middle way is only definable by the absence of hedonism or self-flagellation, rather than the presence of a specific type or level of moderation.  There is not one right way to live; our lives are fairly arbitrary.  For any one person, the fact is that there are probably multiple, skillful paths of action possible at any given time.  

I happen to be gaining discipline and productivity as I gladden the mind.  I could also let myself feel pleasure whilst I indulge in my lazy habits instead of carving new ones.  It doesn't really matter that much; either one of these roads could lead to the goal of proper Dhamma practice, and happiness all the time.  As my teacher said to me, "I don't care what you do, as long as you are joyful while you do it."  

I just happen to be someone who wants to be more productive.  So I'm doing it, and its as simple as that.  Accepting the arbitrary nature of this has not been simple.  I have been craving a clear course of action which does not actually exist.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 4/30/16 3:00 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 4/30/16 3:00 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Giving Dhamma Advice:

Buddhist ideals about human interaction are frequently defined in vague conceptualities, but rarely given specific parameters.  How does one actually benefit others when the rubber hits the road?  One scenario in which this theme could arise is when one person asks another for advice.

Tonight I hung out with a friend, her brother, and his new girlfriend.  Afterwords she asked me what I thought about the girlfriend.  I liked her, but my friend disliked her strongly.  She asked for more input, so I strongly urged her to try to see how subjective she was being.  She got upset.

This advice was out of context in multiple ways.  It was too forceful, too complex, and poorly timed (we had all had a few drinks).  It would have been better to light-heartedly suggest that she give the girlfriend a chance, and then stop talking. 

This makes me realize how hard it must be to be a Dhamma teacher.  That role does not involve instructing others from one's own vantage point alone.  It has to be interfaced with the context of the recipient.  Furthermore, the actual situations in which verbal communication occurs are frequently spontaneous.  This makes the consideration of context before formulating a statement an instantaneous demand.  This is way out of my league, but I find it interesting to think about.

P.s.- I am just geeking out on some analysis here.  I am a very long way away from actually 'teaching' anyone.  However, there is obviously a spectrum from being a student, to peer communication, to teaching people.  Therefore, I still consider this type of examination useful.

shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 4/30/16 6:59 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 4/30/16 6:59 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
4.14

The Middle Way:

The middle way is only definable by the absence of hedonism or self-flagellation, rather than the presence of a specific type or level of moderation.  There is not one right way to live; our lives are fairly arbitrary.  For any one person, the fact is that there are probably multiple, skillful paths of action possible at any given time.  

...

I just happen to be someone who wants to be more productive.  So I'm doing it, and its as simple as that.  Accepting the arbitrary nature of this has not been simple.  I have been craving a clear course of action which does not actually exist.

nice!
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 5/28/16 6:40 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/28/16 6:36 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Maps I've Learned From Different Teachers

1) My Vipassana teacher calls me technical 4th path.  I want more.  He refers me to a Mahamudra teacher.
2) This Mahamudra teacher explains that his tradition has 3 maps (ordinary, subtle, very subtle).  The technical 4 paths only cover the ordinary phase.
3) A pragmatic dharma friend who also studies in this Mahamudra tradition explains this to me further.  Technical 4th path is the opening of 4 doors inside.  For many, this is enough.  However, there are at least 10 to 20 doors to open.  When they are opened, that is the real third path.  When the walls between the doors are deleted, that is the real fourth path.  
4) My current teacher has a map that is unrelated to the previous two, but uses the same terminology (4 paths).  His map has to do with the whole mind, body, emotions, behaviors, speech.  Certain thresholds of development in these areas qualify as knocking off portions of the ten fetters.
5) I think the truth is a combination, and that opening doors inside is not enough without habit formation, emotional development, etc.  Thus someone could be 'technical 3rd path' perceptually but 'pre-1st path' in terms of morality & concentration.  
6) An integrated four path model would take into account where someone is with regards to their way of interacting with others, their perceptual nonduality, their emotional life, their body language, etc., and would be able to weight these factors and come out with an appropriate designation that would most closely align with the Pali Canon.
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Chris M, modified 7 Years ago at 5/28/16 7:59 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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At a certain point all the models become less relevant, or not relevant. That's when we get comfortable with "I just don't know" as a way to be.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 5/28/16 3:12 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/28/16 3:09 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Chris Marti:
At a certain point all the models become less relevant, or not relevant. That's when we get comfortable with "I just don't know" as a way to be.

So true.  Richard keeps telling me this, and i'd like to think I'm working towards it; slowly untangling my stories (not practicing them) and then dropping them.  

Because even if what I say about these maps is somehow 'objectively true,' the actions required to move through them have nothing to do with conceptualizing about them or my place within them.  If anything, that will be a detriment,  One thing thats helped me a lot lately is 'the removal of distracting thoughts' sutra.  My mind is just very stubborn.

Edit: Oh, I wanted to add another thing Richard said last night- that one of the classic signs of an Arahat it that they completely stop comparing themselves to others.  That seems relevant too.
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Chris M, modified 7 Years ago at 5/28/16 4:17 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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... one of the classic signs of an Arahat it that they completely stop comparing themselves to others.


Yes. It's all related, IMHO, to the knowledge that concepts of all kinds are hollow. Empty of any meaning beyond that assigned by the mind they are meant to confuse.

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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 5/31/16 8:32 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 5/31/16 8:32 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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"Sensory Circuits"

I love this term.  I got it from Shinzen's 'Outline of Practice.'  To me it summarizes what insight meditation improves.  And it also emphasizes that fact that there are other 'circuits' that can be trained.  What makes the sensory circuits unique is that they can be permanently altered in a dramatic moment of clarity.  In contrast, circuits of emotion, motor, behavior, and others, all must be gradually trained.  Different models of enlightenment stress the training of different circuits.  It is easiest to use the sensory circuit as a model of enlightenment because its attainment is more binary.  It being easy doesn't make it the most skillful or helpful model. 
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 6/4/16 1:30 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 6/4/16 12:46 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Post deleted in an effort to practice skillful speech.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 6/11/16 5:18 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 6/11/16 5:02 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Currently Used Tools:

-Breath focus
-Gladdening breath
-Investigation
-Right view
-Removal of distracting thoughts
-Right action/productivity
-Watch the flow
-Watch the stillness
-Posture (a continuous project involving hip flexibility & back alignment)
-Mudita (purposely spreading joy to others in communication)
-Metta (used much less, but basically the ability to savor intimacy)
-Seclusion
-Listening (totally tuning in to the person I am interacting with)
-Positive thinking**

**This last one is brand new.  I am finding that when I try to eliminate all storylines, I end up with having slightly pessimistic ones.  I am adding in purposeful gratitude & appreciation thoughts to balance this out and gain clarity on these subjects.  
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 6/14/16 7:04 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 6/14/16 7:04 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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6.14

Random Thoughts For The Trashbin:

What I am learning is basically just psychotherapy.  At its highest expression, psychotherapy would align with the ideals of the Buddha: one's own highest happiness, other people's happiness, an emphasis on unburdening and loosening in as many areas as possible.  

Most people (I'm admittedly picturing a certain slice of the population here) have good efficacy with chop-wood, carry-water, but still need work uncovering deeper knots and working with them.  I've done a lot of that and am working on the chop-wood, carry-water part.  Either way, it all meets at the apex.  Being fully trained involves optimizing every area of the human mind-body system for the least 'weight' on one's shoulders.

My experience these past six months is that it keeps getting better and better.  External conditions can peak fairly quickly, but there seems to be no ceiling on cultivating internal conditions.  Whats more, all this is ancillary to the main goal of spirituality, which is training the sensory circuits.  

However, having well-trained sensory circuits (a few path-shifts in), but an uncooperative subconscious is still hugely problematic.  Thus the three trainings. not just the one.  As a side note, I believe that the trainings converge at a certain peak of sensory-circuit training, but that this doesn't occur until much later (i.e. most people never reach this point- I certainly have not).  

This training I am doing is all about aligning the sub-minds.  The alignment of the sub-minds is what concentration and morality are all about.  It can become a more powerful force than any of the nanas, and it can also become greater than the sway of external events.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 6/27/16 4:56 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 6/27/16 4:56 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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6.27

I'm at a junction where I need to notice how my mind is fighting itself and how a part of me is not believing that I deserve to be happy.  This is the ascetic end of the middle path spectrum to be avoided.  Over pleasure to the point of drowning things out is the other end.  When the mind sees with true clarity, it is able to appopriately act (internally and externally) to avoid both extremes in every situation.  

My guilt is preventing me from following the middle path, by making me want to either go to extremes of indulgence (ice cream and tv marathons) or self flagellation (fantasizing about being an ascetic monk).  Basically, all of this is movement to avoid looking at myself for fear of the pain of being exposed as inadequate.  But truthfully I am not inadequate.  I am just an average dude with lots of strengths and weaknesses, just like everyone else.  The only difference is that I have the chance to be above-average happy, if I can just get all of my ducks in a line here.

There is a natural happiness to be had in the moment.  To get there I need to stop resisting the meditation practice.  And to do that, I need to realize that there is only one mind that lives in my skull, and that any seemingly conflicting parts can be brought under control and soothed out.  Especially if I have the deep, heart-felt belief that I actually deserve to feel easy continuously.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 7/13/16 6:26 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/13/16 6:26 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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The point of the DhO is to discover actual change through practice.  The description of sensory/perceptual progression has been the most notable expression of that.  Assumptions have been made that this is how Asians, as a whole, understand practice.  

I would agree with this, but add that, in the traditional context, other types of actual change are also expected.  These would take the form of new habits on the levels of conduct, thought, and emotion, to name a few.  The key word here is habit; just as phenomenological aspects such as speed of perception exist on a spectrum which has thresholds or points of no return, so to do behavioral tendancies.  

I believe we can move past the binary notions of "no emotion" vs "completely flawed" or "sanitized being" vs "screwed up human."  Why not value relative mastery over body, speech and mind.  Why not talk about this in pragmatic terms?  Why not celebrate progress in this area, and systematize it in a healthy, embodied, and balanced way?

I have already passed mutliple, subtle thresholds of behavioral modification in only seven months of intensive, daily life practice.  These shifts resemble the "paths" in many ways.  When I say 'Sotapanna,' I am referring to both, an individual who has completed one cycle of insight and who has developed themselves on a relative access, to a certain point of no return in these areas.  An individual who has completed a cycle of insight and has done little to balance their lifestyle or emotions is not a Sotapanna, in my opinion.  

Yes, different rates of development along different axis' are possible.  This does not mean that they should be encouraged.  Also, this does not mean those who fit into this mold of varied progress fit the traditional definitions of attainment.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 7/14/16 11:50 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Taken from a quote posted to Dharma Connection (emphasis mine):

BECOMING A GOOD HUMAN BEING

It’s crucial for us to become good people. If we are not, then how could we say we’re Buddhist? We need to reflect: What kind of person am I? If you’re making a golden vase, first you have to see if the material is real gold. If it’s brass, then you’re not making a gold vase. To become a good Buddhist, you have to become a good human being. It doesn’t mean that you have no anger or jealousy, for example, but that you have decreased the negative emotions. Otherwise, it’s a sham: you have the name of a Buddhist, but have not transformed yourself. Nobody can change us. We have to talk to and instruct ourselves about the right way, then change will happen.

- 17th Karmapa
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 7/25/16 1:45 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/25/16 1:45 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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There is a hole inside every one of us.  This hole is created when we are babies, by the fact that we experience (or are) a remarkable sentience and inevitably, a relationship with our environment.  We have complex brains, which are in charge of a variety of functions in the body and mind.  These include emotions, memory, conscious thought, subconscious processing, and perception itself.  Part and parcel with the process of survival, is the development of partialization mechanisms in each of these functions. 

What the pragmatic dharma movement has done so well is to talk about the reversal of this partializing on the perceptual level.  And truthfully, the perceptual level is the key to unlocking all the other levels, because perception is the only way we can ever know anything.  The problem is that unlocking dualistic perception is really fucking hard. 

At first, one can hang on to the energetic effects that Vipassana causes (which are called the “insight knowledges”).  Eventually though, the insight knowledges stop teaching us anything new, and we no longer have them as an anchor.  Most people who get to this point, called “technical 4th path,” experience an effect known as ‘their hair no longer being on fire,’ in which the drive to continue seeking has dropped away.  Although they still have dualistic perception, on the intuitive level, they have completely seen through it.  This attainment did not drop the seeking mechanism for me because the direct knowledge of nonduality did not trickle down to the levels of emotional, somatic, and mental functioning in a powerful way.  Furthermore, I have not been able to keep developing on the axis of perceptual opening.

So instead, I’m working on perfecting morality.  One way that manifests for me is holding Right View, which gets back to the hole inside.  The Dhamma is about being devoted to stop hole-filling behaviors.  I need to think of this more often, as I bring increasing discipline into my life.  This thought is the backbone of gladdening the mind, and also of anapana.  The mind fit for work is one that is not trying to fill the hole.  It is no longer subject to normal human tensions because it has broken the chains of kamma, aka addictive behaviors, soothing mechanism, etc.  It is able to see the path clearly, and by that I mean, effective ways to be in the world, happy ways to be in the world, how to make others happy, how to care for the body, how to properly organize one’s time, etc.  Right View is about choosing to make this one’s way of life, and no longer choosing to make hole-filling one’s way of life.

Some days I feel a continuous, low-lying tension.  This occurs despite mastery of my affairs in basically every way.  I believe that this is the fundamental pain of existence.  Instead of fighting it, my work now is to accept it, with the joyful, clear mind I have built.  Accept it, love it, but resists its influence on my actions: instead, act based on cause and effect alone.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 7/25/16 8:58 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/25/16 8:58 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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After talking to DreamWalker, I've become inspired to start playing with vision again.  I used to think that breaking it down by sense doors was optional.  Perhaps a rare few can have huge fruitions after which all sense doors are permanently opened.  This doesn't seem to be happening for me any time soon.

The stability and coping mechanisms I've developed since January have put me in a much better place to do insight practice.  When I don't have to fight off restlessness every second, or worry about making money, I have the bandwidth to investigate.  Also, I feel like I've softened on a heart level, which has allowed me to really understand what the sensory shifts are all about.  It isn't that luminosity is some 'spiritual right way to be.'  Rather, it is the natural extension of understanding that all experience is relative, and that mind is the creator of it.  When one turns the dial of clarity up past a certain point, it becomes obvious that the conscious sensing brain is on a lower wavelength than the background awareness.  The attention's selection mechanism is a subtle cause of suffering.  There is no need to choose between two different schools of thought on this.

Here is what I have noticed with some soft effort today:  There are many ways to approach the vision.  I can feel sight energy coming in and out of my head.  I can let the visual field "do me" and have a life of it's own.  I can notice things like parallax, peripheral vs central, cross-eyedness, etc.  I can feel space and the dimensions of objects in the field.  These are all valid observations.  The thing that really matters is to get to that point where it becomes unlocked and irreversable.  It seems that the most reliable way to do this is play with peripheral vs center.  

It is actually easier to try to do all the sense doors together, and to jump from observing one aspect of emptiness to another.  However, I think this method is a culdasac, because it has not led to any post-4th shifts for me.  I frequently get luminosity within the a&p - this has been happening for months.  To solidify it, I suspect that I need to wire in the peripheral, visual awareness in a more immediate way, so those brain pathways make it easy for whatever nueron synching needs to occur.  Here's hoping!
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 7/26/16 9:38 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/26/16 9:38 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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7.26

I played with the vision today.  It turned into a form of inquiry: looking for the subtle energetic sense of 'rightness' as I moved between different qualities of the visual field.  I also have been doing magick on this the past couple days: whatever needs to happen for my mind to change in this way, is now happening with the mind of god.  

There was a moment when a sheet of energy in my torso became twisted into a coil.  As this sensation occured, my visual field wrapped around into a panorama.  It has stayed like this for a few hours.  What I have noticed over the past couple days is that there are qualities of the visual field that unfold in layers.  First comes the sense of panorama, and then the vividness of details, and then the brightness of colors.  

From what I understand, there are metaphors for the sensory shifts in the Mahamudra tradition.  The Ground or Mother (Gzhi) for sight is something like "the space that holds all appearances."  The Mother for sound is something like "the silence between all sounds."  Rigpa is the Infant or the Knowing of these Mothers, on the level of nondual perception.  I am also reading backlogs of Antero's Mahamudra journal entries to understand where he has been.  When I think back to reading Nikolai or Tommy's AFfism practices, they also remind me of this.

The surrender aspect is really important.  This is not Mahasi noting, and "I" can't get there from here.  Willful 'holding' of the field in place will not do the trick.  I am attempting a subtle prodding, an attempt to sneak in the side door, etc. Ultimately, the field must reveal itself to me, as it has always been, rather than me forcing something about my seeing to change.
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Noah, modified 7 Years ago at 7/27/16 1:09 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 7/27/16 1:09 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Preliminary practice = sila + samadhi
deconditioning = prajna
reconditioning = sila + samadhi

more preliminary practice = quicker deconditioning, more ancillary benefits received from deconditioning, and less need for reconditioning

mainstream Buddhists mistake the effects of reconditioning with the internal experience of deconditioning (I.e an arhat has specific body language, emotional life, etc)

the higher one goes with deconditioning, the more easy it is to recondition

reconditioning depends on the yana
hinayana = arhat = uprooted emotions and reactions
mahayana = bodhisattva = emotions and reactions serviced for compassion 
vajrayana = siddha = emotions and reactions transmuted for increased clarity
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 11/21/16 11:38 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 11/21/16 11:38 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I've decided to unload some trash in my old stomping grounds, as the situation fits.

In the past 11 months, I've oscillated dramatically between the extremes of effort/control and letting go/surrender.  I find myself feeling that my huge efforts are unnatural or unnecessary.  Why can't I just 'be normal' or 'go with the flow', (etc.)?  

Thus the carousel of my mind circumambulates. I have gotten better at noticing deeper tendencies like competitiveness and self-loathing.  I've deleted huge amounts of these 'drivers,' yet they keep returning on subtler levels.

The poiint of morality training seems to be this: if you (or others) are consciously noticing the defilements, there is still something to do about them (even if you're "high-functioning").  People have many imperfections that do not bother them, or anyone else, on a daily or monthly basis.  There's nothing to do in these cases.

My defilements that bother me daily include:
  • Absurd degrees of gluttony
  • Continuous libido
  • Overthinking/Insecurity/General mental intensity
I have solutions for these but I'm afraid to use them in case they create more defilements.  This is where Right View comes in.   Right View is a catch-all "sifter" that allows me to figure out what to do (Right Effort)/  Without Right View, there is no glue holding the peices of the path together: thingse become robotic, clunky and depressing.  With Right View, they can be zestful, inspired, flowing, etc.  The first step is accepting the path laiid out ahead.  Hopefully this writing will help.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 12/20/16 9:02 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/20/16 9:02 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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12/20/2016

I've had a huge insight into the methods I've been learning from Dhammarato.  Here is how it came about:

For months and months, I have been building on what I learned from Ron by practicing joy and mindfulness.  As various obstacles obscured these efforts, I first investigated them, and then began to counter them with appropriate methods discovered through investigation.  Gradually, these defilements died down, but with each successive reduction, subtler layers & structures emerged.  Also, greater clarity & balance in my baseline allowed me to improve my conduct, which resulted in taking on more life challenges.  These challenges also brought new defilements to the fore.  Gradually, all the seemingly disjointed methods have clearly become more and more of a cohesive system, with one spirit.

To explain my most recent insight, the last few sentences are necessary to provide a context.  Working at the levels of attitude, emotion, behavior and perception have brought me to this "ideal" mental operating system::

The internal world must be a spectrum of positive states.  
Participation in the external world must be governed by skillful habit formation.
The wall between these worlds must be made of detachment, such that there is minimal, causal relationship between them.

As long as emotions effect action and actions effect emotion, there are carrots and sticks, aka  samsara.  Obviously there will always be some interplay betweeen inner and outer.  The goal is not to "kill off" this activity.  The goal is to reduce it to a low enough degree that suffering is not normally detectable.  Having perceptual nonduality is not enough.  Having ego-development is not enough.  Having morality skills is not enough.  These things must be brought together.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 12/25/16 12:46 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/25/16 12:46 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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-Noticing spatial aspect of field.  Tuning into this as foreground with other objects in background.
-Practicing sensing dense objects such as anxiety feel-in/see-in as whispy & light.  Processing whole field as whispy & light.  Disembedding from subtle layers of vedana & assumptions about practice.  Seeing these too as holographic.
-Feeling effort involved in returning to these views, like the muscle of the mind flexing.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 12/27/16 11:45 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/27/16 11:45 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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40 min.
At SIMS for Rodney Smith's retirement talk.

Resting in steady formless spatial quality that is with me throughout the day, these days
Agitation arose- Resisted instinct to dissociate, resisted instinct to react, engaged with it relationally as it coursed through the body
Spatial quality strengthened, feeling of “floor” in my torso falling out, whole perceptual screen seemed vast but flat, pervaded by a warm glow, some vertigo
There seemed to be another layer of voidness present alongside the expanse, in parallel
A couple times a strong energy would fill my skull cavity, and the field would collapse inward (fruition)
The voidness seemed more significant than the physical world of vast space
Sense of being outside the dream, inclining to experience other worlds
I was aware of cycling between nanas 3 thru 11 as these effects were occurring
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 12/29/16 9:50 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/29/16 9:45 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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This is how I’ve been “setting up” my off cushion practice this past week:

First, I can clearly see that I have master the attention-speed, vipassana-level of mind.  This happened at “technical” 4th path, 1.5 years ago.  What I mean by this is that objects which arise lack a certain type stickiness/friction within themselves & relative to other objects.

I also see that there is an open, spacious quality to the broader field within which objects arise.  This just happened for me this summer.  I can tune into the wide expanse of each of the five senses.  However, there is really only one, total sense “sphere,” which is accessed by zooming in on the conceptual prop which differentiates senses, until it disappears.

So, I have the sensory field, the one sphere.  I have the objects within it.  These objects bear their own significance in the field and arise where they are.  Sometimes I need to spend time clarifying this. What is it which is knowing this?  It is the energy of knowing, which is an equal part of this arrangement.  

The last clarification is that the energy of knowing is not special, or an exception.  It is not self, even though it feels apart.  Any sensations of ownership are actually objects within the field.  The knowing, the objects, and the backdrop must be simultaneously embodied.

My work at this point is to practice this embodiment until it becomes effortless, at all times in normal, waking, daily life.  

Edit: In the process of beginning to know this at all times, the patterns which obscure this will arise.  Of note is that all of these patterns have deeper mechanisms which give rise to them.  There is a separate engine for my sense of time, for emotions, for inside/outside of the body, for libido, etc.  These machanisms are like projectors which produce holograms of duality.  By turning consciousness towards these projectors, they can be destroyed.  All the contents will remain the same, but be allowed to dance without interruption.  

I need to destroy each of the major projectors which pull the strings in my mind, in daily life,  
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 12/31/16 1:25 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 12/31/16 1:25 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I just had a really good conversation with Dhammarato.  We spoke about how I’ve learned a lot over the past year of working with him, but I still managed to try to shoehorn the dhamma into my own personality drives.  I’ve used mindfulness, joy, conduct modification, emotional regulation, etc. to become a more functional and successful person by societal standards.  

What I need to do is examine these standards.  See how they are constructed.  See how they have interfaced with psychodynamic knots in me to create my current worldview.  I have been playing the rules of this game, trying to “win” certain races in which I am actually in the middle of the pack.  As a perfectionist, my all-or-nothing attitude eliminates the possibility of enjoying the race or accepting my stature within it.

He says that it is better to decide to create my own rules and live by them.  A game in which I can be totally happy.  There are actually only five material standards: food, shelter, clothing, medicine and time-organization.  Other needs, such as interpersonal intimacy or hobbies do not need to be denied.  They can be met without being driven by anyone else’s rules.

I suspect that it will be difficult for me return to these five material standards as a baseline. There are many personal and collective assumptions which operate subliminally to deliver the message that much more than these basics are necessary.  One of them is that career success=survival.  Another one is that I need to be well-known or gain power.  There is the need to be good looking and physically fit.  There is the need for the bragging rights of travelling, being cultured and having nice things.  

These rules get interwoven with my particular damage, which is based on genetics and upbringing.  But none of this is unique to me.  It is the same basic defilements or fetters, mixed in different quantities and a different order.  

The fact that it is possible to grow beyond this inspires me.  This is the importance of maps; they provide clarity and discrimination.  There is a stage beyond needing to be driven by anything other than the needs of the moment.  There is a stage in which the primary operation of the mind is joyful investigation of the moment.  Most importantly, this stage will be better than the one I am currently at, making it worth the risk or sacrifice of the transition.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/3/17 10:49 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/3/17 10:49 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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------------"I am-ness"
----------Sense of ownership
--------Materialistic culture
------Perceived needs beyond basics
----Artificial demands about how life should be lived 
--Pressure to live life a certain way

Dukkha can, and does arise at any point in this chain.  
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 5:37 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 5:37 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Yup, although the important dharma insight is that it "can", not that it "does", right?

Understanding that distinction and then living it is the important thing.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 9:26 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 9:26 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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shargrol:
Yup, although the important dharma insight is that it "can", not that it "does", right?

Understanding that distinction and then living it is the important thing.
 Indeed.  I've noticed a tendency to favor certain investigations over others.  I find my current teachers questioning of consumerist culture to be a hard pill to swallow.  In contrast, I have no problem with subtle perceptual insight.  It actually challenges me less.

Yet I instinctively sense that there can be a great freedom in not demanding more than the basic materials (food, shelter, medicine, clothing, time).  A type of transformation I haven't had yet.  

Thoughts?
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 1:37 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 1:37 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Yeah, lots of thoughts! emoticon Way too much to type, but for some highlights...

I'm on a bit of a renunciation kick these days, so I definitely think there is something to be said for simplicity. Frugality is also one of my major focuses recently.

However, even with simplicity there can be all sorts of strange fetishizing of oobjects. A robe can simplify one's need for clothing, but it can also become a whole new obsession -- how to wear over which particular shoulder and with what particular folds, when and how to wash, how to maintain and repair, etc. So ultimately, I think it all goes back to greed, aversion, and indifference rather than the more macroscopic expresssion.

Critiquing consumerist culture is also kind of trite. Human culture is consumerist as near as I can tell. One crazy thing to think is every "consumerist" purchase puts food in somebody's mouth. It's somebody's livelihood. So I could save money by not having coffee... but what if that coffee is paying for someone's family's healthcare. Lots of dimensions to this, but it's worth contemplating how interdependent we all are. So to me it's more about right consumption (choosing ethical companies, sustainably produced products, etc.) and trying to influence production/consumption to go in a particular direction, rather than trying to cut if off.

My sense is while we need renunciates, we also need tantrics that can be a part of culture and nudge it in a better direction. So it's a complex balancing act, that we'll probably get wrong, but my sense is this is the direction to go in.

Also, in the big picture, creativity and expression are a beautiful part of being human. Sometimes people cut way too close to the bone when they try to get rid of a sense of I, ownership, material/possessions, dreams beyond basic needs, and various flavors of adventure and exploration of how life could be lived. Basically they wind up crushing their basic humanity.

So I always cringe when people say these things CAUSE dukka. Dukka is actually a useful tool that tells us when we become a bit too clinging in our normal healthy and human pursuits. But, conversely, avoiding healthy and human pursuits is a horrible way to get rid of dukka. Or so it seems to me at this current millisecond. emoticon



 
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 4:42 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/4/17 4:42 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Awesome, thanks much.

One aspect of Dhammarato's perspective that I appreciate is that he doesn't deny any part or pleasure of human experience.  My understanding is that he is all for adventure, which includes things like travel, relationships of all kinds, community building, etc.  But to find a kind of adventure that isn't quite as wrapped in human systems and the moral assumptions that come with them.  He purposely does not speak about ethics: only about the changes which alleviate dukkha, which can be opposite ethics.  
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/8/17 5:37 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/8/17 5:29 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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From "Jhana and Insight" Yahoo group archives

https://beta.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/jhana_insight/conversations/messages/2415
1. An identifiable magga-phala event, either as a distinctly conscious event or as a clearly perceived ‘gap’ in experience, following which the yogi becomes a Stream Entrant as demonstrated by the abandoning of fetters and the manifestation of the characteristics. Stream entry validates the magga-phala event as genuine.
 
2. An apparent magga-phala event that is not followed by the lasting transformation corresponding to Stream Entry. The apparent magga-phala event is invalidated.
 
3. No identifiable magga-phala event, but Stream Entry as evidenced by the abandoning of fetters and the manifestation of the characteristics. Magga-phala in the Abhidhamma sense must have occurred, but we cannot know whether or not there was a fully conscious magga-phala event of the potentially recognizable sort, because if there was it has presumably been forgotten.
 
This is Culadasa talking about the relationship between fruition-cessation and the attainment of path & fruit.  It helps me contextualize things.  Cessation can occur and leave a perceptual imprint, without any change to body, speech and mind.  The next level of cessation can occur, without any change to body, speech and mind.  Etc.  In contrast, some people would have cessation occur and experience an integrated change.  There is not necessarily any rhyme or reason to how this happens.  They are separate, but interconnected axes. 
 
The early Buddhist definition of enlightenment is based on both the path & fruit.  The path is the perceptual opening.  The fruit is the morality piece.  Combining both is the 10 fetter model.  They are sometimes separate.  In that case, part of the journey is brining them together.  That could mean getting cessation and then integrating into the mind-body system.  Or it could mean integrating the mind-body system into the 3 C's, and then later directly experiencing them.  

It is a truth that I have been resisting for some time now.  A stream-enterer is one who has the conduct, mind & heart of a stream-enterer, combined with the perceptual imprint from the 1st-level fruition-cessation.  Same for once-returner, non-returner, and perfected one.  It is possible to have the perceptual imprint from the deepest level of mind cessation alongisde the conduct, mind & heart of an ordinary person.  

This has been an odd pill to swallow.  Good writing on Culadasa's part.  Worth exploring the website through that link.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/14/17 8:47 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/14/17 8:46 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Here's another attempt:

1------------------------survival reflex/impulse
2--------------------desire for immortality
3-----------------self-importance
4--------------ownership 
5----------materialism
6--------cultural values
7----ego

Investigating push & pull is great.  But investigating the underlying value system is even better.  Becoming clear & equanimous while still within the cultural paradigm of materialism is a trap.  Deeper than (or parallel to) that is the paradigm of psychological wounds and emotional snags.  Psychodynamics and materialist culture work together to reinforce ownership.  These two are the fertalizers in the soil.  Ownership is the seed.  The defilements are the plants.

Being truly unafraid of death involves realizing one’s individual life is simply not that important.  Intermediate fears about the quality of that life lose all steam.  
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/17/17 12:25 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/17/17 12:25 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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email to teacher ---

Hi Richard,

I wanted to share some recent insights:

-It's possible to have some insight into push/pull, the 3 characteristics, etc. while still operating within a Western materialistic paradigm --- there are lots of experienced meditators who are still protecting their world views/cultural identity at a deep level -- I know this bc I go to lots of local sanghas.
-to be truly liberated from materialism, the underlying value system (the very meaning of life) needs to be uprooted and not replaced by anything, but left empty 
-Sensuality is based around grasping for immortality through luxurious external circumstances bc there is no confidence that positive feelings can arise from consciousness itself --- thus my continuing issues with libido and gluttony 
-ALL of this stuff has to do with giving up the WORSE VERSION of something for a more pleasurable, stable version (not “sacrifice” or “discipline”) -- Desire for external luxury (or fame or power) comes from a desire for happy brain chemicals, but the only way to reliably and deeply have these chemicals is ironically to give up power/luxury/control, etc.

Thanks for the help,

Noah
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/17/17 12:34 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/17/17 12:34 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Sit from tonight at a local sangha (approx 40 min.)

Spent time investigating/"cleaning up" the following perceptions:
1) Thoughts - non-particularized, taking place within the stillness that holds all thoughts
2) Emotion - non-particularized, taking place within the equanimity that holds all emotions
3) Time - not-processed, blooming into the reality of awareness outside of time
4) Proprioceptive balance - not specified, detecting the arbitrary nature of proprioceptive balance in a world that is at once upside down, rightside up, sideways -- being processed from every possible angle
5) Luminosity - The details of the objects of central attention and peripheral awareness dancing with their own brilliant consciousness totally

There was a sense of being very "high" even as my mind cycled through various nanas.  No sense of localization in the room, on the cushion.  The body feeling somewhat "mushed" or distorted as my mind "became" various objects in the room, requiring no effort at all.  The entire thing feels simultaneously rapturous and natural.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/22/17 11:52 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/22/17 11:52 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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1st path, 2nd path, Awakened Awareness, Groundless Ground, Buddhahood:

Wherever there is perception and grab, there is not awakening.  Perception in the sense that one part of the field is watching another part of it, rather than the field inhabiting itself in each object as it arises.  Grab in the sense that objects in the field take on more significance than other objects rather than all being equally alive. 

There are a few ways that perception and grab can be eliminated, with the most common being the traversal of the nanas/jhanas to a cessation event.  The simple model would include the first major blow to these processes being SE, the second being 2nd path and then the end point being "groundless ground."  3rd and 4th path are distinctintly non-linear but have to do with the elimination of subconscious selfing processes in an order that is unique to an individual. 

At some point in this territory, the central-processing-unit/fight-or-flight becomes uprooted.  This would be "awakened awareness," which becomes "groundless ground" when stressful triggers that still cause particularization are smoothed out.  A later stage of this 'trigger work' comes with the mixing practices of becoming lucid in dream sleep (dream yoga) and deep sleep (sleep yoga).  That completes this particular axis of training - totally nondual at all times (by removing the artifical boundary of waking and dream consciousness).

At this point, a finer boundary still exists; there is a sense of being within this particular sphere of reality.  A sense of confinement or limitation despite the wonders of perception.  There are various methods (togal visions) that can be used to hack this sense and dissolve the boundaries between worlds.  This starts with the ability to travel to different worlds but later evolves into the ability to exist on multiple planes simultaneously.  This dissolves the subtle barrier of being within one body and within one world.  At this point the various worlds all become one thing.  This would be the attainment of "buddhahood."
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/24/17 11:47 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/24/17 11:33 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Another Simple Map

Definitions
1. Conscious Process: All directly perceptible aspects in experience including thinking, emoting, physically acting and the five senses
2. Unconscious Process: All imperceptible aspects which structure the manner in which conscious processes are percieved

Maps

1. Supramundane Meditation: Hacking unconscious processes to affect unconscious processes (i.e. nanas, jhanas, paths, deep practice in general)
2. Supramundane Morality: Hacking conscious processes to affect unconscious processes (i.e. 'the natural method' of Buddhadasa, path of prayer/devotion, path of study/analysis)
3. Wisdom Integration: Unconscious processes automatically affect conscious processes  (i.e. 10 Fetter Model)
4. Mundane Morality: Using conscious processes to change conscious processes (i.e. all of mainstream life)
5. Mundane Meditation: Failing to hack unconscious processes using unconscious processes (i.e. all of mainstream spirituality)

P.s. - Concentration is the vehicle used to directly shift from the conscious to the unconscious (thus Supramundane Meditation).  However, it is possible to affect the unconscious indirectly, without concentration (Supramundane Morality).
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 1/29/17 4:22 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/29/17 4:22 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Choose your own adventure:

You are in an abandoned mansion on the top floor.  There is a pile of buckets in one corner.  Find a drip in the ceiling and put a bucket underneath.  Wait until the bucket fills.  Find a hole in the floor, covered by a peice of plywood.  Carry the bucket over to the plywood and place it down.  Then get another bucket.  Wait to fill, then place on the wood.

Somewhere between five to ten buckets, the plywood breaks (under the weight) when you are standing on it and you fall to the floor below.  Luckily, there is an old mattress there to cushion your fall.  Repeat this process until you've broken through all the floors of the house.

Eventually, you get to the bottom floor and when you break through, you realize that the mansion is floating in infinite sky and you are in freefall.
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Chris M, modified 7 Years ago at 1/29/17 6:32 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 1/29/17 6:32 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Ha! Nice.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/1/17 11:20 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/1/17 11:20 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I feel compelled to write this out, so I will (even though it is likely to be ridiculed) -

I have had some sort of "tipping point" insight on the level of thought/emotion in the past month.  I saw how all attachment beyond basic food, shelter, clothing and medicine is optional.  By attachment I mean tension or stress in every way.

Now every time I feel stress, all I have to do is incline my mind towards this realization slighlty and the stress evaporates.  I have not experienced persistent hunger-grumpiness, seasonal affectiveness, sleep-related agitation, job anxiety, or other symptoms in several weeks now.  

I am looking to grow this insight into a paradigm and uproot my old paradigm.  The old paradigm of materialism was cemented in place by individual psychodynamic issues AND collective cultural beliefs together.  Understanding this relationship freed it up for whatever reason.

My goal is to completely restructure the way I process life such that the desire for more than basic materials can no longer arise because the underlying structures are absent.  Replaced with joy, connection to other people, connection to nature and wired-in skillful habits.  And also a deep sense of alignment with whatever activities still remain in my life.

This type of restructuring takes time, but I would like it to be over in less than two months from now.  That way, I can get on with my life.
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bernd the broter, modified 7 Years ago at 2/2/17 8:31 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/2/17 8:31 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah D:
I feel compelled to write this out, so I will (even though it is likely to be ridiculed) -

[...]
I am looking to grow this insight into a paradigm and uproot my old paradigm.  The old paradigm of materialism was cemented in place by individual psychodynamic issues AND collective cultural beliefs together.  Understanding this relationship freed it up for whatever reason.
[...]
You keep talking about materialism and leave me confused. Can you answer the following questions precisely?
1) What exactly do you mean by 'materialism'?
2) Why is it bad for you?
3) With exactly what do you want to replace it?
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/2/17 4:12 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/2/17 4:12 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I'm being imprecise.

By materialism, I mean the present reification of sensual (pertaining to desire) experience.  The ways this reification gets stored in memory.  The symbolic thinking about sensual experience rather than a full consideration of whatever it is.  The way that value-systems overlay onto direct experience and cause this symbolic thinking to occur.

It is bad for me because it causes negative thoughts and emotions to arise and limits the degree to which I can enjoy my perceptual baseline moment by moment.

I do not want to replace it with anything.  Ideally, only emptiness, Joy and skillful engagement with conditions as they arise, and without excess preplanning.

I may not be able to articulate it well, but this shit is really working for me lately!
Derek2, modified 7 Years ago at 2/3/17 6:11 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/3/17 6:11 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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I think I understand what you mean.

Raw experience is a flow, but the mind turns it into structures, which stick and don't flow.

Is that it?

(BTW this thread and Colleen's are pretty long to view on an iPad!)
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/3/17 9:55 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/3/17 9:55 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Yeah they're annoying on iPhone too.

I would agree with your statement but provide a caveat that I am specifically looking at the deeper psychoemotional structures that give rise to the filters.  And trying to investigate to uproot.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/10/17 9:23 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/10/17 9:23 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Random Thoughts On Practice - 2/10

At times recently I have these insight moments (off cushion) in which it feels like I am either destroying old, subtle machinary of mind, or building new stuff.   For instance, I had some "mini-shifts" (a minute yet noticably permanent reduction in a certain type of tension, usually happening through fruition) last month relatating to not having standards/judgements/value-system in place.  However, judgement and planning thought patterns are still arising but they have vastly less strength than before.  When I looked swiftly inside and inquired about the source of these thoughts, I had the image of a machine in a warehouse sorting items between conveyer belts.  One belt was leading to the future and one was coming in from the past.  I realized that these thoughts are still arising because there is a parallel structure to judgement that is more about time-organization.  I commanded my mind to "destroy" this machine and had the image of it exploding.  I felt it necessary to zoom further out and destroy the factory it was in and imaged a missile exploding the factory.  Than a huge vacuum came in to suck the rubble through a black hole into an alternate dimension.  After that there was a certain feeling of "cleanness" and I had the sense that in order to maintain this realization properly, I have to judge only the facts of the present moment and be willing to not refer back to previous data or attempt to predict future data.  Perhaps these statements are too extreme; as always, language is in greyscale and regardless of how I express it, I can feel that good things are happening, factors are balancing, etc.

This segues into a consideration of morality.  Despite their progressive weakening over the years, I still obsess about diet (& meal prep), exercise and finance (budgeting) sometimes.  The problem may be that I am looking to create a plan or system which will allow me to go on auto-pilot with these things.  In contrast, Richard's instruction is to be continuously mindful with each case of them, as they arise.  Another one of his instructions is to "enjoy the moment, free from thoughts of past future."  Given these, it would seem that I am going in the right direction with the paragraphs above. Each day, each instance of spending money, eating, using the body, etc., I need to be willing to be mindful in that instance, using the data of that in that instance alone (no past-future consideration).  

I also had a moment recently in which it felt like some sort of machinary or scaffolding needed to be built out in my mind.  Another "mini-shift" that may have happened recently is some sort of sustained access to connectivity, warmth and affection whenever I turn to it inwardly, across moods, nanas and life situations.  It seems that this warmth and love needs to be stabilized as part of awakened awareness/rigpa, given how prevelant it is as a descriptor across 'world mysticism' (thanks Shinzen).  Having it to "turn to" is not enough - it needs to be really loud as a baseline, all the time - dialed up to 11.  So I asked internally, what mechanism is causing this sense of warmth to increase and decrease, rather than sustain its full expression at all times?  I had the sense that an entirely new type of subtle machine needed to be built.  I'm not sure where this last one is going as it is still in progress.

Unrelated to all the above, I recently met with a new spiritual friend (who will be referred to as SF here-on-out) who gave me a modified/modernized version of Tibetan exemplar tantra.  The meditation involves the sensing of the perfect parent, stabilizing that sense, merging with it and later acting as it.  The idea is to amplify the soothing/regulating capacity of metacognition by complimenting the 3rd person perspective of insight meditation with a 2nd person perspective.  I am still musing over how to fuse these 3 things: this new tantra work, Richard's instructions and my awareness investigations.  This is my tentative plan; when I intuitively sense that a new awareness opening is possible, do that; otherwise, follow Richards instructions in daily life; do the tantra work in 2 formal sits daily.  This m.o. will likely need to change as the practices progress, but it is good enough for now.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:05 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/15/17 8:52 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Perfect Parent Practice: Week 1

2/9 to 2/11


Background: Met with a new, spiritual friend (who I will work with while still studying under Richard) who prescribed me examplar tantra, or "perfect parent" meditation as a complement to the training I've done in other modalities, including psychotherapy and meditation in the 1st and 3rd person perspectives.  The instruction was to imagine a being who 1) protects you 2) attends to/knows you 3) loves & values you.  Sense this being and these qualities  through any sense door or in any way that is most  vivid.  Then absorb the being as a ball of light, then become it, then act as it for other beings.

My Adaptation: I've been doing the technique throug h 1 to 2 daily sits of inconsistent duration, as well as through off-cushion activation throughout the day when I think about it.  Mostly I sense a being very amorphously which seems to work best rather than trying to do a strict visualization or sound, etc.

Effects (in rough, chronological order, over almost 1 month of practice now):
  • It started with feeling embarassment and disgust over the attention I was getting from the being.
  • A few times I began to see a human, female face, or a mother bear spirit form.
  • Different emotional reactions on the surface and inside the body including heart cavity warmth, warm flows on the skin, seeming tingling of the nerves along the arms and in random places
  • Sometimes, at work when I start to get stressed it feels like there is a force field around me protecting me (I imagine the stress is the laser beams hitting the shields they have in Star Wars)
  • A few times (just a few) the being enters me spontaneously and starts to operate as my body and then I have the impulse to extend this niceness to other people --- At this time it feels more like a river of perfect parentING rather than discrete beings doing things to each other
So far, it feels like good things are happening and that this is a meditation project I can really complete, but it might take 6 months to get the thing fully wired in and to get whatever transformations are supposed to happen from it.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/17/17 3:24 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/17/17 3:04 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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All Path Theory I Know - Outlined Without Labels and in 18 Steps


1-Know about the maps, understand how they work, then forget about them and just practice well in the moment

2-Use magick, intentionality, law-of-attraction to cultivate concentration blasts which supercharge the practice occassionally, then forget about them and just practice well in the moment

3-Practice well in the moment.  Are you in EQ?  If not, get to EQ. 
  • Experience finishing a cycle of insight, then review phase.  Notice how it leads to automatic access to soft versions of jhanas 1 through 4.
5-Repeat steps 2 & 3
  • Experience finishing a cycle of insight at a deeper level of mind, then review phase.
6-Investigate each level of mind more thoroughly, in all of it's substages.  Complete more cycles.  Investigate the nature of fractal cycles.  Try to pin down what aspect of mind it is that is independent of the substages.
  • Experience pinning this level of mind down, then review phase.  Notice how it leads to automatic access of soft versions of jhanas 5 through 8, the pureland jhanas, and nirodha sammapati.
7-Investigate what it is that is the "same" in all of life experience.  Try to pin this quality of "sameness" down.
  • Experience pinning this "sameness" quality down.  Notice how it leads to a pervasive sense of doneness or completeness.
8-Move from the vipassana to the awareness level of mind by practicing techniques conducive to this through each sense door.
  • Experience the opening of each sense door, one by one, or together.
9-Practice techniques conducive to breaking down the barriers between sense doors to make it all one space.
  • Experience the level of mind in which awareness is all one space.
10-Notice where in waking experience, the mind is not continuously and obviously, all one space.  Practice maintaining this 'space' during those difficult or distracting times.  
  • Experience the level of mind in which awareness is all one space, even throughout the most difficult and distracting life experiences.
11-As necessary, notice "un-tethered selfing processes" which do not require awareness-particularization to form subtle boundaries.  Possible examples include "time pressure", "internal body image", damaged chakras and body armouring, etc.  Break these processes using appropriate techniques.

12-Notice that despite complete "awakening", there is still the sense of being contained within this "shell" of reality or this dimension.  Practice techniques conducive to penetrating into the nature of the boundaries of this dimension.
  • Experience various incredible sensory side-effects of this penetration.
13-As this experience matures, either directly cultivate the purification of dualistic perceptual imprints (stored in the subconscious from before awakening) or experience it as a side effect of the dimensional-boundary penetration.

14-Also as this experience matures, either directly cultivate awakened lucidity in dream sleep, or experience it as a side effect as well

15-Later, do the same for lucidity in deep sleep
  • Experience the awakened state, imperturbed during all phases of consciousness and with a subconscious purified of all dualistic perceptual imprints.
16-Learn to enact supernatural abilities in dreams generally.  Learn to specifically make copies of oneself in dreams to be in multiple places at once.  Learn to perceive waking experience as a dream.  Learn to perceive that one has made copies of oneself in waking experience.
  • Experience fully opening up the boundary between dimensions, such that one's awareness pervades multiple dimensions simultaneously.
17-Learn to inhabit these dimensions with multiple copies simultaneously.

18-Tune into universal magick.  
  • Experience "spontaneous compassionate action", which is allowing the flow of universal magick to continuously create impulses for benevolent and healing action for other beings.

(Credit a variety of pragmatic dharma users for references within, Dream Walker and Shargrol (the "sameness" idea) in particular - also credit traditional sources)
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 3:00 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 3:00 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Random Mapping Thoughts

1 ordinary mind speed
2 attention/vipassana speed
3 awareness speed (speed of light??)
4 inter-dimensional speed

Regardless of what speed one is operating at, there is work to be done in all the other areas.  Also, getting to the next speed necessitates that certain types of work be done in other areas, i.e. energy body or psychodynamics.  However, just because integration is possible does not mean that people do it.  It is definitely possible to do the minimum amount of other-axis work to just advance along this axis.  The entirety of Buddhism is predicated on doing both the central axis and the other axes, IMO.  The core teaching is the central axis because otherwise we are speaking of the mundane, yet that doesn't reduce need for integration.  

I don't fully know yet whether integration can be mapped. Rd certainly thinks that it can be.  There can be definitely be critical masses of chain-linking:

-How is my basic experential operation different than it was before?
-What does this say about my attitude towards the coarser elements of life?
-How do I actually enact this attitude through my body, speech and mind?
-How do these changes, when persistently performed then circle back around to enhance that basic perception?

In Rd's 10 fetter map, SE is when this links in the chain are so damn strong that the person is committed to performing only stress-reducing (dukkha nirodha) acts for the rest of their life - that's the SE "path" effect.  When they actually start to follow up on this commitment, that's the SE "fruit."  It's a very high bar and to me it suggests that someone could get through several layers of mind (technical path attainments) before actually being able to meet this integration standard.  Furthermore, it necessitates that 10 fetter 4th path is INEVITABLE because one is so committed to letting the realization soak into every facet of their life and room of their mind that the process almost becomes automatic.

Writing this is helping clarify to me that my perceptual baseline is the important cornerstone of my work with Rd (what allows for it), but that Rd's system is basically a very advanced one, which can be helpful to recognize.
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bernd the broter, modified 7 Years ago at 2/17/17 2:28 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/17/17 2:28 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Noah D:
New Technique - Exemplar Tantra

2/9 to 2/11

Background: Met with a new, spiritual friend (who I will work with while still studying under Richard) who prescribed me examplar tantra, or "perfect parent" meditation as a complement to the training I've done in other modalities, including psychotherapy and meditation in the 1st and 3rd person perspectives.  The instruction was to imagine a being who 1) protects you 2) attends to/knows you 3) loves & values you.  Sense this being and these qualities  through any sense door or in any way that is most  vivid.  Then absorb the being as a ball of light, then become it, then act as it for other beings.
Recently, I've been experimenting with some sort of 2nd-person perspective in meditation, and this seems very promising.
Your approach sounds like it might be even more powerful, and this sounds as if there is a whole tradition behind it.
Could you say something about
-where exactly does this approach come from?
-where can I get more information on this?
-whatever else you experience about this. (may take some months, so no hurry.)

I'd be _very_ interested in experimenting with this approach, but for some reason I'm a bit... scared.
Creating beings in my mind without knowing how they will behave and whether they will stay sounds just... a bit too unpredictable m(
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 1:40 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 1:40 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
bernd the broter:
Noah D:
New Technique - Exemplar Tantra

2/9 to 2/11

Background: Met with a new, spiritual friend (who I will work with while still studying under Richard) who prescribed me examplar tantra, or "perfect parent" meditation as a complement to the training I've done in other modalities, including psychotherapy and meditation in the 1st and 3rd person perspectives.  The instruction was to imagine a being who 1) protects you 2) attends to/knows you 3) loves & values you.  Sense this being and these qualities  through any sense door or in any way that is most  vivid.  Then absorb the being as a ball of light, then become it, then act as it for other beings.
Recently, I've been experimenting with some sort of 2nd-person perspective in meditation, and this seems very promising.
Your approach sounds like it might be even more powerful, and this sounds as if there is a whole tradition behind it.
Could you say something about
-where exactly does this approach come from?
-where can I get more information on this?
-whatever else you experience about this. (may take some months, so no hurry.)

I'd be _very_ interested in experimenting with this approach, but for some reason I'm a bit... scared.
Creating beings in my mind without knowing how they will behave and whether they will stay sounds just... a bit too unpredictable m(

Bernd - Sent you a pm.  And I'll definitely write more as the weeks progress.  For now I'm just updating that same post with new details.
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 6:21 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 6:21 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 2344 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Noah, if possible, I would like more info on the exemplar tantra, too (@gmail ?) -- but also wanted to say thanks for the short post, I can see the intent of it and it's kinda neat.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 2:47 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/18/17 2:47 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
shargrol:
Noah, if possible, I would like more info on the exemplar tantra, too (@gmail ?) -- but also wanted to say thanks for the short post, I can see the intent of it and it's kinda neat.

Sent.
Caro, modified 7 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:48 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/23/17 12:47 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 91 Join Date: 5/10/15 Recent Posts
@Noah, if you don´t mind, I´d also be interested in some additional information on this method. Sounds very interesting - and something that could be useful for me right now. I´ll also send you a PM.
And btw, thanks for continuing to share your experiences. Much appreciated. Hopefully, I´ll have some more time in a couple of weeks and get around to summarizing some impressions from my own practice after working with Ron.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/23/17 8:44 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/23/17 8:44 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Caro:
@Noah, if you don´t mind, I´d also be interested in some additional information on this method. Sounds very interesting - and something that could be useful for me right now. I´ll also send you a PM.
And btw, thanks for continuing to share your experiences. Much appreciated. Hopefully, I´ll have some more time in a couple of weeks and get around to summarizing some impressions from my own practice after working with Ron.
Thanks, I'll send an email!  And yes, it would be very good if you could summarize your experience.  I would love to hear about it all, since it's rings home for me.  Especially if you have had any more major adjustments to your process of perception, psycho-emotional structure, etc. since finishing up his training.  The exact order and nature of these adjustments would be valuable information indeed.  We have very few data points at this level of practice unfortunately :/
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/25/17 3:36 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/25/17 3:25 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Musings On Interdependence

This entire thing is about how habit formation unfolds.  There are not really "different levels" or "different axes" but rather habits that are formed at certain lifestages.  Insight meditation undoes some of the earliest habits related to basic organization of the gestalt of experience.  When we are adults, we can depend on lots of latter data points which have been sorted coherently, so we no longer need the earliest subroutines that create objects, spatial dimension, time perception, bodily ownership, basic emotional push/pull, etc.  

Later structures that form have more to do with post-verbal stages.  These are worked out in the therapy room, in conventional life lessons, in human relationships, etc.  These structures are built on top of the fundamental, dualistic misperceptions that are formed in infancy, but they are more complex than these fundamentals.

Infants are born with genetics.  They also internalize the habitual patterns of those around them.  The interaction between both of these processes would be something like "epigenetics" (although I'm not well read on this).  Thus the genes that are passed down in the family line are both automatic hard-wiring, but also the result of forces in the early environment of the parent.  Inevitably, many of these forces could be classified as "trauma."  What this basically means is extra processes designed to wall off certain parts of experience.  Our genes contain the walls built by earlier generations.

Humans are not born "pure."  The earliest structures are stored at a cellular level in DNA.  I suspect that there are ways to work with these structures as well, even though they were not formed in this lifetime.  

The entire society is humans affecting each other based on patterns that were formed at different stages of life.  If you bring all these life stages and all these different people together, it is a very complex web.  There must be a way to participate in this give and take that is conducive to undoing unnecessary, artifical boundaries in oneself and others.  Being committed to this way of life would be something like 10 fetter stream entry as my current teacher puts it.  10 fetter arahantship would refer to an adaptive, working baseline of one who has undone each of the 'walling off' subroutines that have been formed at different phases of life, as well as those which were inherited in the DNA.  Joy in that system (the one used by my teacher) is used as a surfboard to glide within the web.  

The answer is to participate in a way that encourages connection, unity, unfolding -- and that discourages boundary, separation, isolation.  The exact nature of this participation necessarily depends on the situation.  However, there are identifiable patterns to this ideal participation, since there is a certain geometry in the design of things.  These patterns would be grouped together as the eightfold path.

If the web of samsara is a ground of 'disease,' a buddha is like a positive virus.  A buddha would be an entity that has removed even deeper barriers to the greater whole and is plugged into the entire ocean, thus all of the waves are known.  This would be 'spontaneous action.'  Meaning continuous participation which undoes artificial boundaries in others.  A buddha is a virus spreading through Indra's net.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:05 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/21/17 8:37 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 2

2/12 to 2/18

I notice there are 3 energy gradients to the practice guided by the technique:
-Sensing the being outside 
-Becoming the being
-Acting as it 

One naturally progresses to the next with sufficient focus and maturity.  I'll keep going.  Got a charge from it the past couple days.

-It seems that there are many sub aspects to each of the 3 gradients -- in other words, the parent has a lot of different qualities
     *strength
     *power
     *bliss
     *etc.

-When I get to cutting edge within 1st gradient, it generally flattens out based on my energy level... there the practice is sustaining this plateau

-Some times I have to do actively do the relating, most of the time it is sensing the being relating to me

2/17 - It is getting trippy.  It feels like the thing is entering me and acting as me and when it does the whole logic is that it can shut my bipolar symptoms down in one fell swoop by eliminating the basic resistance to performing life tasks.  And the basis of that would be a feeling of confidence and balance in the internal atmosphere that is just self-regulating and resiliently ongoing.

I'm just going to keep surrendering to the damn thing and inviting it in and see what happens.  It feels like a new type of trust that I haven't felt before, almost like falling in love but falling in love without conditions or an object of love.

2/18 - Of note is that I have had 3 (or possibly 4) nights in a row with dreams that seem symbolic.  One was that a close family member committed suicide.  Another was that my coworkers or family were conspiring to kill me.  A third was that some friends from my home town were going sky diving and I really wanted to tag along and be included but I wasn't prepared to sky dive and had no training so would probably die if I did.  

Obvious themes of abandonement, trust, blah, blah - things being released.  They don't seem unsettling or disturbing when I wake up, just that somewhat isolated within the context of the dream.  

Later in the day I did a meditation -- quickly went into jhana 2.5.  What was weird was that the formless piti felt like it was literally the caregiver being holding me.  Later I had the sense that this relationship is something pre-verbal and possibly pre-human.  Images of some primate baby and mother and then a bacteria being "held" by it's environment flashed through my mind.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:04 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/21/17 8:46 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 3

2/19 - 2/25

-I'm having more dreams, almost every night.  One was a tsunami, another last night whose contents I forgot.
-Continually getting highly charged a&p's with no discernable dukkha nanas after wards, just the high and then the neutral.  They feel different: a new, more innocent yet integrated type of confidence.
-It seems that the cutting edge is the moments when I feel connection and attachment with the being since this is the point of the technique.  All the highs are just side effects of the steps of building that connection.

2/21 

During the day I started hammering in all the protection, attunement and love I could get from this being.  It was flowing fairly effortlessly.  After a few hours of this, something "popped" and I had the image the the being is actually a huge bird with big, black, beady eyes, a short, thick beak, wide and long wings, bluish grey in color.  It literally had me "under its wing."  It didn't speak english but was telapathic and obviously way more intelligent than me/humans in general.

Later I did a 30 minute meditation with a lot of fireworks and visionary stuff:
*warning - this shit got real new agey unexpectedly

-At first I felt like I didn't fully trust this new form it was taking, but then decided that I had to.  So I looked into its eyes.
-I got strong, full body piti and possibly a fruition as I felt myself merging into it.
-Next thing, I was in a wet, dark tunnel.  I remembered feeling the walls.  I heard its voice in my head saying "follow me," so I went down the tunnel.
-This opened up into a wider space and it said "this isn't just about you, it is systemic."  In the cieling of this wider space, I saw a picture of my parents, grandparents, ancestors, etc - sort of branching out into a family tree.  I was surprised to be seeing facial details of my great grandparents (which very well could be made up as I do not have pictures easily available).  The sense I got was that I was seeing the stress and trauma being passed down through the generations.
-The bird made some sort of clicking/throat noise and I heard a torch sound, realizing that it was breathing a steady stream of fire from its beak, destroying the family trees.
-Next, the seen went black and opened up into galaxies spinning.
-And then folded down into a molecule spinning.
-It told me it has to be able to 'use me' within the system.
-It starts to enter my mind, looking around and saying "you've done a pretty good job in here, but there is still some cleanup."  I feel it pecking away and rooms in my mind.  It also starts pecking away and energy centers in my body.  Images of destruction and surrender flashed through my mind.
-Then I felt like there was another stream of energy coming in, possibly with multiple beings.  I got the sense that the bird had brought in her "team mates."  
-At this point I started trying to feel love and got strong formlessness quality.

2/22

Today the bird continued to be the obvious form.  I noticed that it was flying in space, flapping its huge wings slowly.  By "space" I mean some infinite black-grey expanse with many stars in the background.  It sort of had a Tron-like feel to it.  Also, it seemed that there was a nest in this space and that I was to sit in it, so I did.  Dream Walker suggested it was a Garuda.  When I asked it if it was a Guruda, I had the Hindu version in mind, which is a specific god that Vishnu rides.  In contrast, the Tibetan version involves an entire race of eagle-humanoid demigods.  When I asked if it was one of these beings, I felt a medium strength confirmation.  After this, I felt pretty psyched to be interacting with it.

2/23

Still getting weirder and developing.  So I discovered that a Khyung in the indigenous Bon pantheon actually is the most accurate identifier since it is associated with fire, sometimes depicted as blue, is more birdlike in appearance and is associated with outer space.  I have continued to interact with the diety today, whose name seems to be something like "Aknaku" but in a syllable that isn't accessible with the human voicebox.  The goal seems to be to ride her (apparently female), pet her, interact and otherwise become familiar with this more powerful presence.  The overarching goal of the practice is to feel love and connection, which does seem to be developing slowly.  

I never thought tantric diety yoga would feel so viscerally real and 3-dimensional, but this is the literal goal of the practice, so whatever.

2/24

Spontaneously imagined riding atop this being across the cosmic sky of the astral plane.  Seeing sights like cities of great light or glowing volcanoes in the distance.  Honored an impulse to stand up while doing this.  And then to jump off, letting myself slowly flip through space until she swooped down to catch me again and return to the glide.

Noticing the possibility that this being is representing or funneling some deeper or greater force of love, sort of like a diplomat for universal love.  The love, care, mushy-gushy component is definitely becoming more pronounced.  Felt a spontaneous desire to listen to "Unchained Melody" by the Righteous Brothers, which is a love song that seems to be corny enough to let some of the heart chakra ooze out.

The point that seems to be developing is: this being loved me from before I was born.  Thus I am loved in a way that is unrelated to the mistakes and successes I have made in my life - unconditionally.  The diety is a bridge to this love.  Universal metta is great if it is accessible, but the diety seems to be a shortcut.

2/25

Doing more experimentation with music - songs that seem to provoke metta.

Playing with phrases "I was unconditionally protected since before I was born.  I was unconditionally attuned to since before I was born.  I was unconditionally loved since before I was born."

Moments of strong formlessness, pronounced piti, combinations of both, flowing energy in chest cavity and outside of body and cycling into reobservation (restlessness in body) and fear (anxiety about career).

Reading about attachment theory.

Considering switching back to imagining a human mother or father instead.
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Geoff W, modified 7 Years ago at 2/24/17 11:01 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/24/17 11:01 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 103 Join Date: 1/2/17 Recent Posts
Very interesting/cool stuff, seems quite promising.  Excited to see where this takes you.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:03 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/26/17 11:58 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 4

2/26

My instinct yesterday and today was to switch back to just imagining humans.  I chose to follow this.  Today I cycled through reobservation (restless agitation), eq (relief/calmness) and a&p (charged energy, inspiration).  All the while I was imagining these human parents.

I was switching between a mother and a father.  Imagining being a baby in their arms.  Using physical senses as triggers - such as grabbing the t shirt or hugging.  Imagining looking into their loving faces.  Holding hands, being supported - all the mushy gushy stuff.   Just did a lot of extended "holding" of these images off-cushion, all day long.  

2/27

Doing human thing again.  Holding the mental pictures.  Calling up warm emotions from the pictures.  Activating touch sense as well to contribute.  Some nana cycling within this exercise.  Could have done better with the off cushion portion at work.  Noticing a sense of security but I am not sure that it is something other than eq/a&p.  That will be proven or disproven with time.

2/28, 3/1, 3/2

I continued with the human mother and father the first two days.  As continuous as possible.  Commute time, morning & night are the best but I can also do a lot at work if I force it.  Lots of nana cycles: keeping the continuity throughout.  Definitely increased concentration - I can call up the various images and imaginal spaces with these two beings fairly effortlessly and hold them for a small period of time before switching.

On the 2nd, for the majority of the day I tried the third phase of the practice, which is to perfect parent all beings.  It is basically just being on the reverse side of the visions with the mother and the father and the reverse side of the feelings (although the connection seems to basically be the same).  I was moving between perfect parenting whomever popped into my mind, then to all beings in the building, then a web of all beings everywhere, then back to individual people, etc.  I sort of imagined hugging them the way Amma (the hugging saint) hugs everyone. 

However, I am experiencing a decent degree of paranoia (about 3/10 where it would have been 7/10) due to a combination of seasonal affectiveness, potential instability of employment and probable dukkha nanas.  This being the case, I thought it best to switch back to the first step.

3/3

I had an insight about some sort of 'vajra cockiness' - the sense of being on the attack (pushing the walls of reality OUT) - rather than letting them close in on a subtle level (being on the defens)... Not a sense of rejection of humanness or of emotion but a deeper trust and security that would allow me to feel whatever arising and knowing I can handle and adapt to it.  I think this came after I asked myself how it would feel to be perfect parented inside, all the time.  

This happened within a&p but it is a cutting edge of relief from all anxiety that I (maybe) haven't experienced before so it might be a "preview" within a&p type thing.  Either way - I am trying to not get caught up in side effects and just relentlessly hammer in the imaginal space using see-in, feel-in (hear-in more rarely): hugging, laughing, peek-a-boo, nap-time, all kinds of being nurtured type visions.

I really want the damn thing to work and by "work" I mean cannibalize these visions so they become a part of how I operate within myself which would be protecting myself, managing/balancing my own energy & feeling an inner lamp of warmth and love in the heart cave at all time.  

3/4

Stayed with the constant images and feels today - same as above.

I'm exploring the a&p-insight from yesterday.  WARNING - speculation & theorizing follows (but I'm purposely doing this to allow the insight to mature) 

You ARE confidence, or you ARE NOT in a given moment.  It is not a trait that is outside of you that can be controlled and brought inside.  It is fused in with the mind & body.  Matter is energy.  A person IS their qualities.  Following this, it makes sense that confidence is it's own answer.  The problem and the solution belong to the same figure-eight feedback loop.  

What I thought before was that confidence occurred as a result of skills.  Thus confidence is gained from outside.  But now I have skills.  I've gotten good at meditation and people have noticed and praise me for it.  I've improved my life and it turns out that I'm good at my job (that I was once terrified of doing).  Yet I still don't feel confidence.  And the reason for that is because those things are outside.  They are causes and conditions.  Embodiment has nothing to do with causes and conditions.  Embodiment occurs before processing.  It would be something like an earlier step in the dependent origination chain.  So, by trying to intellectualize the process of gaining confidence.  I block myself from being confidenct.  Also, (sometimes concurrently), by trying to make EMOTIONAL SENSE of the quality of being confident, I block myself from being that way.  At these times, I am trying to reconcile all of my conflicting emotions with what I project to be the ultimate, positive emotion (when really it is not an emotion at all, but simply something as basic as consciousness).  

--------

The same can be said for toughness or power.  I sometimes watch olympic wrestling because I usesd to wrestle.  I always thought that good wrestlers possessed a quality that I did not and that I could work on the outside to make this quality appear on the inside.  Once again - the same sort of logical fallacy.  Toughness, grit, power, vitality (whatever you call it) IS the essence of these olympic wrestlers.  They are not conscious of these qualities because these qualities are in the body complex moreso than the mind.

Which brings me to another thought - My nervous system/energy network is probably pretty fucked from being stressed out and eating shitty food and taking mood stabilizers (not that I would go off of the low dose I am on now).  The embodiment of this quality of power would be synonymous with an engaged nervous sytem that was flowing easily, healing itself and vitalized.  Bottom line is that it would not be a "fight" inside to do daily tasks.  "Toughness" seems like it is more about the body than the mind.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:03 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/5/17 9:23 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 5

3/5

Yesterday the human mother and father started glowing and became pure light.  They grew angel wings and started to fly around me.  I thought "uh-oh, not this again."  I thanked them in my mind for showing up, did some prostrations, and left an offerings of water & oats (in separate glasses), by my meditation area.  I then explained to them that I needed to keep things human for the benefit of all beings and that I would not be engage with them any further.

Today I think I discovered how to do the 2nd phase of the practice.  The instructions given to me where to absorb the being through my skull cavity in a ball of light.  That does sometimes happen to me, or I merge with the being in some other way.  However, what I discovered to do is a line of reasoning: this being is perfect, I know this because I can sense it vividly through hanging out with it, I am the child of this being, therefore I am made of what it is made of, therefore I am perfect.  "Holding" both the connection to the being and the knowingness that it is inside of me and the specific qualities of it is the exercise.

Also notable from today is that just the father emerged, with the mother leaving the frame after awhile.  Also new was imagining being a baby and the father is watching me do various activities and letting me be independent.  As I did the activities & played around in this imagined world I could sense the father in the background the whole time.


3.6 & 3.7

3/6 day I practiced more 2nd phase.  Holding the recognition that I am the perfect parent all day long.  Returning to it when I forget.  Based on logic of coming from lineage of buddha parents (i.e. no karma no trace just pure energy). 

3/6 night I had tea with other SPUDS as well as Tuere Sala, guiding teacher of Seattle IMS.  She loved our pragmatic approach and kindly shared advice on our practice.  For me she emphasized dependent origination.  

3/7 I continued with 2nd phase.  Not just recognition of I-am but also trying to feel what it is like to be perfect parent.  It is loving.  It is quiet.  It is vitalized.  It is kind and patient.  Etc.  Also returning to Noah-ness and playing around with inviting perfect parent in.

I think I'm going to start rotating days on the practice. I.e. practice relational on Monday, being-parent on Tuesday, parenting others on Wednesday.

3.8

I did the 3rd phase today.  Imagined hugging people I walked past (like Amma, the hugging saint).  Imagined stroking their head and caring for them.  Imagined a connection of knowing they were a part of me, they were my child, but that I could not control their actions in life.  I did it for old folks, babies, people long dead, celebrities, politicians and animals.  I did it for the entire city.  I tried to connect it with total boundlesness (all beings) but that felt sort of impersonal.  I did it with multiple beings at once.

To be fair, this sounds poetic, but my concentration was shitty because this was my second day doing it.  I kept trying to feel the emotions but it was mostly an exercise in see-in with some feel-in.  I actually think hammering away at the see-in with this stuff builds up more concentration and then the feel-in comes automatically, but I'm not sure about that theory.  I had one memory from childhood pop up that made me feel a nostalgic heart melt.  I rarely ever get that effect so it could be related to the technique.

3.9

I did the 1st phase today.  Maintaining concentration was a struggle.  Lots of restlessness.  Kept returning to image of smiling mother, feeling of heart-cave warmth, taking nap with parents, big hug feeling, etc.

Did 60 min. meditation - very annoying, lots of restlessness, poor concentration, same imagery as above

3.10

I may have to skip meditating today.  I have a big interview coming up in 10 days and notice anxiety derailing practice.  I felt better once I stopped meditating and prepared for the interview instead.
-----
I decided later in the day that I needed to make both meditation & stressful work stuff happen at the same time.  After making this resolution, I kept with mild effort on the 2nd phase recognition that I am the perfect parent.

3.11

I did 1hr 45m minutes with the SPUDS today (our new pragmatic dharma seattle club!!).  I was doing 3rd phase - perfect parenting all beings.  Imagined hugging friends, enemies, seattlites, all humans, birds, dogs, dead people, future people, etc.  I imagined kissing them, loving them, attending to them, seeing if they needed food, water, humor, discipline, coddling, etc.  

I had a moment of remembering the legend of Tuangpulu Sayadaw, who is a continuous inspiration to me (Shinzen Young describes him as a TRUE arhat).  The guy didn't lie flat for 30 years -- permanent yaza.  He practiced so hard that he permanently damaged his voicebox in the Burmese jungle.

I thought - If I take the amount of effort Tuangpulu put in, and divide that on finance, health and practice, than I can do this shit!  I can get this done!  After thinking this I kept concentrating super hard on the 3rd phase.  At the end of the meditation I thought of my childhood family dog, Sophie.  She was a labradoodle.  I remembered seeing her through her entire life, interacting with her, looking in her eyes.  At this memory, I started to cry.  I took this as a good sign.  
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:01 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Perfect Parent Practice: Week 6

3.12

Did 1.5 hours at Seattle Shambhala today.  Afterwards, asked the teacher to speak the mechanism of diety yoga in the discussion and was given an anti-intellectual, condescending answer (I <3 mushroom culture).  Did the 1st phase of the practice -- imagining parents loving me, looking at me, attending to me, giving me protection & whatever else I needed.  Feeling all these emotions in the body.  Imagining being sung too.  Etc.  At one point I experienced a "pop" again (similar to what happened when the bird entity showed up) but this time I broke through to a strong visualization of a human mother in her 30's, dark brown hair, kind blue eyes, loving presence, etc.  I decided to switch to the phrases and not do the visualization component to discourage this realistic entity from continuing to make her presence known.  I'm trying to keep things in the momentary concentration, not-hyper-realistic realm of practice.   

I tried to do 1 hour in the evening but I fell asleep for part of it and woke up 3 hours later.  Proabably a side effect of the relaxation from the practice actually.  Also did off cushion practice fairly continuously all day long, switching between the phrases and the visuals/sound/touch imaginings.

3.13

1 hour morning sit.  Did 2nd phase - I am perfect parent.  Logic being remembering the interactions with the perfect parents in phase 1 and realizing that I am their child therefore I have their DNA and no trauma because they don't have stored trauma and I didn't create any in my childhood with them.  Confidence and poise seem to be important qualities here.  Embodiment and dignity.  These are the things which set me up for phase 3.  Embody that love, that attunement.  Get distracted.  Back to embodying - HOLD that embodiment for as long as possible.  

Off cushion: I had 3 irregular (one's that I don't ever had) insights out of the blue
1) Why am I not inredibly grateful for the progress I've made?  I should be blissed out for where I am in life.
2) I can see why having kids could be exciting for most people.
3) I could imagine wanting to be in a relationship if I had slightly less lust than I do.
Other than these insights, I did 2nd phase off cushion through most of the day.  Remember I am buddha, thinking of what it is like to be that.  Recalling feelings of perfect parent - realizing I am made of those feelings.

1 hour night sit - similar to above.  Lots of restlessness.   Some daydreaming.  Kept returning.  I feel concentration building over time.

3.14 - 3.18

Largely stopped practicing due to anxiety about upcoming job interview as well need to prepare for it.

3.18

On the 18th, I had another shift.  For context, this one was much larger than any I have had in recent months, yet smaller than what happened in July.  Ever since stream entry, it has felt like the “room” of my mind/inner space has become larger and larger (incrementally with each ‘technical path’).  Then, in July, it felt like the “room” of the external world suddenly became “large” as well.  This then has increased quantitatively and qualitatively over the past 8 months.  On Saturday the 18th, I was sitting talking to 2 friends and I leaned back to close my eyes.  I felt this psychic force turn inwards.  In that moment, I realized that force was extra effort, I did not need to be there; there need not be a ‘force’ that works to turn inwards.  It is all one continuous space.  The body is a hollow tube leading into the mind.  With the dropping away of this force, the two big “rooms” (inner and outer) seem to have become one big room.  The stickiness of my bipolar symptoms has been reduced by at least 5%.  The body seems hollow.  The mind seems like it is a part of the body.  
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/15/17 11:48 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/15/17 11:48 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Random thoughts (3/15):

It is clear to me that I like things to be in control.  I have been focusing on exemplar tantra in order to get another baseline shift.  My goal is to get shifts that I don't have to maintain.  This is because I don't trust my self-maintenance.  And so it goes.

Richard's methods are the antidotes to this.  The most logical plan is to do exemplar tantra in formal meditation and to do Richard's stuff off-cushion.  There are a variety of ways that my craving for non-maintenance fucks with my life goals.  It causes me to be underconfident, which hinders me in the professional and social realms.  It causes me to do cultivate unhealthy coping mechanisms, which cause me to make poor health and lifestyle choices. 

It seems that I need to escalate the need to fix this inside.  Getting baseline shifts is reducing the reactivity around it, but not fixing the core problem.  The core problem is that I think I am a shithead.  But getting at it seems like it "pointing out instructions" or a koan.  I can't get at it directly, I just have to fall into a state of release from it accidentally: a state of confidence.  

But there are ways to hack it:
1) Prayer, like in the young pope: "you must, you must, you must!" (believe in yourself)
2) Optimism observation lists 
3) Appreciation observation lists 
4) Direct attitude change

I think prioritizing it and maintaiing that orientation for several months is key.  Another aspect of the theory is the idea that I have a core storyline underlying all  these other tree of symptoms.
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/16/17 5:42 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/16/17 5:42 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Seems like there is part of your psyche that thinks it can get out of the experience it is having... well (duh, I say to myself), having started writing that I just realized, yeah of course Noah does, we all do, it's call "The Future". Maybe the point is just remembering this imagined future state is an imagined future state and getting anywhere has as much to do with having a good sense of imagination as much as it has to  do with really being present -- almost feeling trapped -- in the way things are right now.

Any wisdom you have needs to operate on the present moment to get to the better future. It could be that the rate limiting function isn't more wisdom, but rather more presence.

Just a notion, I haven't thought it all the way through yet. And I'm listening to my own statements, because I think I should consider how much it applies to my life/strategies, too.  emoticon
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/16/17 10:21 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Thank you.  I think your words are the truth of dukkha-nirodha but when I contemplate them I fall into the equanimity nana of my cutting edge awareness speed - repeating old realization.

There seems to be an opportunity to use Richards antidotes in a subtly enriching way to the moment, rather than a future basis.  Really enjoy gratitude and gladdening with presence rather than having a little birdy saying "this is going to be so worth it later...". Another opening might be in relishing past achievements to counter the tendency to stress present -> future.

More Thoughts?
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/17/17 6:36 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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It's probably a matter of balance. Being inspired by future goals, having happy reflections on how good choices in the past have led to a better present... those can't be bad things.

For what it's worth, I really don't know enough about all the work you're doing to say that what I write below is the way to go, but I'll answer just in case it's helpful to someone who might be in a situation where another yet another practice/exploration is interesting... 

An interesting thing to me is investigating the premises that go into this statement: "when I contemplate them I fall into the equanimity nana of my cutting edge awareness speed - repeating old realization." Because if you look at it, it seems to imply:

* The present needs contemplating to be seen
* The mind is turning away from the full bandwidth of the present and entering a definable nana
* That the experience of the present depends awareness speed
* That the present is something that gets realized
* That the present is somewhat "inadequate", it's an old realization and not good enough.

All of that kind of reinforces my original hunch that it might be good to work on some form of "settling into the present and finding yourself already at home" meditation. No work, no goal. In Dzogchen, they sometimes call it "old man sitting in the sun".

This is oddly one of the "hardest" things to do because it's the easiest. It exposes all the sub-conconsious, subtle, instinctual resistances we have. At the root, there is a sense of separation from the present, therefore a sense of fear of the present, therefore a need to understand the present as a thing, and a sense of needing to control the present. 

This practice allows you to experience "the dharma eye" opening and closing. If you find yourself feeling slightly inadequate or the present slightly not good enough -- just notice that experience. If you fight it or fix it, guess what is happening? (Unintentional resistance now becomes an active resisting the present moment.) So just notice: resistance, no resistance, present moment as it is, inadequate present moment. 

(Shinzen might call this noting "flow", not sure.)

Obviously this is also a practice where you need to be in a situation where you truly don't need to fix anything. You need to find time to just be the old man sitting in the sun. Hanging out outside or in a building lobby over lunch is a good way to do it.
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/17/17 7:01 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Some synchronicity: my wife just came into the room wearing a shirt that says: "Love your now." emoticon
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 11:01 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/21/17 12:46 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Perfect Parent Practice: Week 7

3.19
Skipped practice
Perceptual shift still remains

3.20
Finished interview process
Perceptual shift still remains
Began to work back in 1st phase images & emotions

3.21 - 3.22
Perceptual shift still remained 
Continued with phase 1 images & emotions

3.23
HOLY SHIT!! - another perceptual shift:

Then, on the 23rd, I was walking to the bus stop and I noticed how intensely bright all the colors were around me.  It was as if someone had turned up the saturation knob in Photoshop.  I felt pure, exquisite delight looking at these colors and it was as if all the objects that contained them were somehow alive and possessed with spirit or consciousness.  Also, it was like spatial ‘contrast’ was turned up as well: everything was no longer one huge space, but rather, everything was occupying its own unique x/y/z coordinates in space and the inherent value of each of these coordinates on the grid became much more obvious -- and the sense of referencing between coordinates became much  less pronounced because each cube is “good enough” right where it is in the hologram.  I spent all day acting like Johnny Depp’s character in Fear & Loathing In Las Vegas, trying not to stare at things for too long, reacting to the brightness of my computer screen or whatever.   My coworker gave me a Sprite and I started laughing at how frickin tangy and explosive the taste was.  He gave me a weird look and I said “I haven’t had a Sprite in a long time.” Also, agitation in the body and anxiety in the mind are sort of pleasant now, along with all other sensation.  This pleasantness seems to come from how detailed and clear everything is.  The negative inner sensations actually kind of “tickle” me in some odd way.  The entire field, in through, up and out, is so damn rich & delicious.

3.24 - 3.25
The shifts still remain (I'll explain more on my monthly update & possibly a 'claims to attainment' thread).  Continued with phase 1 of the tantra (images & emotions).  Fleeting concentration throughout the day.  1 hour morning & night where possible (about an average of an hour a day).

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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 10:59 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 7:31 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Perfect Parent Practice: Week 8

3.26
The shifts still remain.  Did phase 2 of tantra (1.5 hours formal meditation).  Being perfect parent - feeling pulsing, heavenly, mothering energy AS my body.

3.27 
Shift continued.  It's  quite trippy.  In my bedroom, in the office, walking outside - everything is of one consciousness.  I did the 3rd phase of the tantra today - perfect parent  all beings.  I had low quality, fairly continuous concentration on it all day long.  1 hour formal sit in morning that was very sleepy. 

3.28
1 hour formal sit.  1st phase of tantra.  Remembering perfect parent's love.  Low concentration, high continuity.  Off cushion most of the day as well.

3.29
1 hour formal sit in morning. 2nd phase of tantra.  Feeling perfect parent's energy within me.  I am that.  Etc.  Low concentration, high continuity.  Tried to focus more at the end with success.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************

3.30
Had another session with spiritual friend.  Instruction is to continue with same techniques/cycle/approach but to add targeted metta phrases in the 1st & 3rd phases ("may I be...", "may this person be...").   Also in 2nd phases, specifically visualize concentrated energy-light of perfect parent entering my body through crown, then into 7th chakra, down all the way into 1st (3rd is solar plexus, not navel in this tradition).  The energy softens, opens and heals each center as it goes.  This is some sort of nervous system rewiring.  

Will do stage 3 today.

3.31
Did stage 1

4.1
8.5 hours - did a day long with the SPUDS, rotating between stages 1, 2 & 3.
Had micro shifts around time, agency, ownership & sound.  
On Saturday night I had profound effects of loving kindness for myself and everyone in the bar.  The potential ramifications of stabilizing this are a huge motivator for me.  So full speed ahead!
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 10:57 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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That shift is very interesting... as is the whole of your path Noah.

If I heard that report from a generic meditator, I would say to them that they were now accessing non-duality/rigpa or as my theravadian ex-monk friend would say, they are having moments of experiencing the moment without greed, hatred, or delusion.

When non-duality is experienced for hours at a time and over multiple days, that tends to mean Awakening is right around the corner.

I worked with someone who was told by their teacher than non-duality WAS Awakening. He had a several week period of non-duality... but it wasn't perminent and he was crushed when the view changed.

The tricky thing that get's resolved at Awakening is this: to whom does this apparent non-duality experience occur? What is it that knows non-duality and duality?

The nature of self/mind is THE question. If you get the answer to that and you're DONE. emoticon

Again, I don't know if this applies to you at all Noah. I'm mostly providing it more for a generic meditator that is reporting something similar.

Best wishes!
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 2:32 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Thanks Shargrol.  I am discovering that there are many aspects of non duality and that it is easy to feel "done" when the 'sameness' aspect opens up but that doesn't mean the rest of the perceptual mechanism has been made nondual.  The same can be said for the term 'awakening'.  It can be defined by a sense of truth and knowing that can occur after x numbers of cycles and fractal cycles, but it can also be defined as much more: having to do with levels of mind that can't be accessed even through the vipassana/attention speed. 

Ive been influenced lately by a very clear map to Buddhahood that I came across.  It clearly contains and transcends all the previous stages I knew about.  Ultimately what matters is that everyone get to a point that satisfies them, of course.
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 3:48 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Sounds good!
J C, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 3:53 PM
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Noah D:
Ive been influenced lately by a very clear map to Buddhahood that I came across.  It clearly contains and transcends all the previous stages I knew about.  Ultimately what matters is that everyone get to a point that satisfies them, of course.
I'm very interested in this map - can you link or post more about it?
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 5:12 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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J C:
Noah D:
Ive been influenced lately by a very clear map to Buddhahood that I came across.  It clearly contains and transcends all the previous stages I knew about.  Ultimately what matters is that everyone get to a point that satisfies them, of course.
I'm very interested in this map - can you link or post more about it?

Sure.  Can you PM me your email?  I couldn't find you on my end in the messaging system.
J C, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 3:55 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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shargrol:
The nature of self/mind is THE question. If you get the answer to that and you're DONE.
Can you say more about that? That's interesting to me because my experience is opposite - I've reached 4th path so I have the no-self answer, but am still working on the non-duality/rigpa enlightenment, trying to broaden it so it stays around in its full width in all aspects of life.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/27/17 5:16 PM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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J C:
shargrol:
The nature of self/mind is THE question. If you get the answer to that and you're DONE.
Can you say more about that? That's interesting to me because my experience is opposite - I've reached 4th path so I have the no-self answer, but am still working on the non-duality/rigpa enlightenment, trying to broaden it so it stays around in its full width in all aspects of life.
@JC: Your take matches my experience.  There can be a sense of completion without actually building out the complete mosaic of awakening.  I'm not necessarily a fan of numbering the paths - unless we're using my friend Dream Walker's Framework of Awakening.  I say this because I completed a 4 path system under a teacher in July 2015 and I have had 2 massive shifts since the last one in that context.  And about 5 "mini shifts" along the way as well.  IMNSHO it makes more sense to scale 3rd & 4th path to encompass the entire territory of awakening than it does to talk about "post 4th path practices."
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 7:07 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 7:07 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah D:
J C:
shargrol:
The nature of self/mind is THE question. If you get the answer to that and you're DONE.
Can you say more about that? That's interesting to me because my experience is opposite - I've reached 4th path so I have the no-self answer, but am still working on the non-duality/rigpa enlightenment, trying to broaden it so it stays around in its full width in all aspects of life.
@JC: Your take matches my experience.  There can be a sense of completion without actually building out the complete mosaic of awakening.  I'm not necessarily a fan of numbering the paths - unless we're using my friend Dream Walker's Framework of Awakening.  I say this because I completed a 4 path system under a teacher in July 2015 and I have had 2 massive shifts since the last one in that context.  And about 5 "mini shifts" along the way as well.  IMNSHO it makes more sense to scale 3rd & 4th path to encompass the entire territory of awakening than it does to talk about "post 4th path practices."

Sure JC, and take all of this as a casual conversation not as dogma. I find that I almost need to be talking with someone to really understand how the language they are using coorelates to experiences and insights --- it's so easy to assume we're talking about the same thing, while both of us can be talking past each other. 

In general, when I listen to people's "technical MCTB 4th Path" awakenings, I'm often left with the sense that they are actually late in the 3rd path and are having the many subtle insights that go with that territory. I think the big challenge in the pragmatic dharma community is to figure out a way of talking about late third, basic awakening, opening/closing of dharma eye, and post-4th refinement. I actually think Daniel has described it very clearly and I'm hoping the MCTB2 provides an even clearer description.

The way I see it, late third contains all the dimensions of figuring out the entirety of the nature of awareness/consciousness. This is solving the riddle, what is the difference between distraction, mindfullness, jhana, and non-duality. Part of the exploration is actually experiencing all of those things, but the other part is understanding what it means to experience all of those things. 

Noah mentions above that this insight could be "the sameness of mind", JC mentions above "the no-self of mind". These are very good answers. They could be the "right" answers, but so could the exact opposite ("the never the same mind" and "the mind as self"). That's the thing about insights -- they really can't be described narratively.

In any case, once you have an answer, it's worth looking at one's own actual intention/desires as a way to see if we really believe those answers. For example, if mind is the same, why is there preference for some states over others? Obviously we really don't believe that they are the same. For example, if the mind is no-self, why would we pursue non-dual experiences if our experiences are beyond our control? Obviously, we don't really believe that what gets experienced is beyond our control otherwise we wouldn't be searching, working, exploring so hard.

You see what I mean? No big deal, it's been like this our entire practice. Everyone who sits down has some legitimate insight into dharma. In a certain sense, we're never wrong about what we know, but we have to be honest about what more we can understand...

Here are some thought problems:

* Imagine that you find yourself in a state of 24-7 non-duality... how long before you call yourself 4th path?

* Imagine that you stay that way for 10 years. That's a reasonable time to say it's a permenant shift, right? But then, one morning while brushing your teeth you have a moment of samsara, maybe 30 seconds. Now how long before you call yourself 4th path? Do you need to wait 20 years?

Conversely, here's the reverse thought problem: What kind of insight could occur at 4th, such that it doesn't get changed by what is subsequently experienced? It would be need to be an insight that doesn't change with pleasure, pain, fame, shame, knowing, or confusion. Can you see how this insight needs to be about the nature of mind rather than any mind object? 

It seems like 4th is more like seeing not-self, imperminance, and the suffering of desire/clinging as a single insight that it doesn't leave a trace in samsara. That means it can't be mapped in terms of this vs. that. It means it really is the middle way beyond polarities. 

Anyway, this is the most I've tried to type out my understanding of it. I can already tell it's kind of a disappointment because it's not like "An ANSWER!" emoticon   But I tried. >shrug<
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 7:24 AM
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Ooh -- but I do want to say one more thing.

The real test of 4th path is how people relate to their actual felt sense of being "superior" or "inadequate". That's kind of "An ANSWER!" after all.

Because here's the deal: at the heart of all spiritual quests is a sense of self. That sense of self causes us to search for experiences that will either further solidify our sense of being superior or will work to erase our sense of being inadequate. Everyone is motivated by these two things. 100% of all practioners.

The most striking thing about these two mindstates is that we truly, truly, truly believe them. We can hold almost every other experience as "just an experience" "not self" "sameness" "just a passing experience" --- but if we look at our actual experience, we always believe that there is truth to the experience of "being superior" or "being inadequate".

When we fuck up and get angry and over-react and feel shame. We don't doubt that feeling of being inadequate.

When our experiences line up with someone describing the path to enlightenment... we don't doubt our feels of being superior.

This is the last knot of self. Self has many layers, but the final tangle is "good/bad", "superior/inadequate". We'll continue "working on enlightenment" until this knot is clearly clearly seen. And when it's seen, it untangles itself. Done.

4th path forever blows up the concrete reality of achievement and failure. Life goes on. There can be pursuits, but they always seem to find themselves in a no-man's land -- is this right or wrong, good or bad, will it make me superior to how I am now or will it actually corrupt me and make me inferior to how I am now? There is momentary knowing, but ultimately you just don't know. Which sounds awful, but you know you don't know -- which is an interesting kind of comfort. 

Heck, every description is paradoxical or lost within the middle path... so I guess it's back to the disappointment of there isn't "An ANSWER!" emoticon
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 7:37 AM
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RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Shargrol:
* Imagine that you stay that way for 10 years. That's a reasonable time to say it's a permenant shift, right? But then, one morning while brushing your teeth you have a moment of samsara, maybe 30 seconds. Now how long before you call yourself 4th path? Do you need to wait 20 years?

Thank you for the further elucidation.  RE that above quote: that's what Trekcho practices are for, methinks.  Also (are they the same thing??) the post-awakening "mixing practices" of Vajrayana.

To further complicate matters, there is strong evidence that "untethered selfing processes" which do not require a central processor exist.  Thus the rare few people who do actually have what Daniel has and describes (the basis for all of this IMO) sometimes still experience further perceptual shifts later on.  It's complicated emoticon
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 9:13 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 9:13 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 2344 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I also agree that refinement continues post-awakening. It's not quite the refinement of a self, though, which I think is what pre-awakening refinement seems to be about. The point pre-awakening is clearly "perceptual shifts are happening to me, how can I get more of them and better versions of them?"

Awakening is the realization that this kind of spiritual materialism could be seen as a form of hell. Endlessly self-recursive, endlessly inadequate, because more and better is always theoretically possible. But what is this >urge< that wants more and better? Seems like this is the origin of suffering. Even the nobility of the pursuit of dharma can become samsara. This is a very third path dilemma.

"Practice" and "progress in practice" becomes very paradoxical after the pride of self is unknotted. It's the paradox of "the sun is shining but the snow isn't melted." The sun doesn't grow at this point, but the snow definitely melts. Perhaps what appears like effort is needed, perhaps not, either way it doesn't matter because dharma is both the sun and the snow, effort and no effort -- there isn't a conflict.


Hmm.. I'm starting to feel preachy -- good signal that I should stop here at least for a while! emoticon emoticon
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 10:06 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 10:05 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Shargrol: I also agree that refinement continues post-awakening.

I'm gonna hold you to that quote!

:-P
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 11:24 AM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/28/17 11:24 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 2344 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
This imperfect being is living that quote! emoticon
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 3/29/17 6:42 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 3/29/17 6:42 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 2344 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I checked out the Trekcho link above -- actually the description of this sounds like a pre-4th path to get 4th path practice, not a post awakening practice.

Look closely at the descriptions below and compare to what I said above:


Trekchö is translated as ‘thoroughly cutting through’ (resistance, stubbornness, toughness and closedness), or ‘breakthrough’. The practice of trekchö reveals the view of primordial purity beyond conceptual elaboration (kadak trödral).

Sogyal Rinpoche writes:Trekchö means cutting through delusion with fierce, direct thoroughness. Essentially delusion is cut through with the irresistible force of the view of rigpa, like a knife cleaving through butter or a karate expert demolishing a pile of bricks. The whole fantastical edifice of delusion collapses, as if you were blasting its keystone away. Delusion is cut through, and the primordial purity and natural simplicity of the nature of mind is laid bare.[2]

Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche defines trekchö as "cutting any experientially inclined trips".[3]
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 10:55 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/4/17 9:31 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 9 

4.2
1st phase off cushion

4.3 
2nd phase all day long
Approx 1.5 hours formal meditation

4.4
3rd phase
1 hour meditation (morning)
I can feel the practice taking on a new depth after my daylong retreat on Saturday (& my following up session with the spiritual friend).  I can feel all of this feel, tension, paranoia and sadness bubbling up from inside.  I'm unconditionally accepting & loving these feelings and trying to still fully feel them.  This is probably the first time choiceless awareness has worked for me, but even this isn't true choiceless awareness, which I think is a bullshit practice.  There is the sense that the perfect parents have to become more real than negative emotions.  By that I mean the sense of bond, trust & security has to obviously be more solid, more prominent, larger in the mind, than the objects that pass by this bond.  I have learned that I have to quickly revert back to the 1st phase as necessary in order to "recharge" when I am experiencing paranoia.  But this is not suppression or antidoting.  I am purposely, fully feeling the insecurity.  

1 hour meditation (night)
Off cushion

4.5
2 hours meditation total
off cushion
1st phase

4.6
1st phase again
1.5 hours total
off cushion
accepted big job offer today (#MoralityUpgrades)

It feels like I am building a wall of loving acceptance in my mind that I can depend on no matter what.

4.7
2nd phase off cushion
Skipped formal sits

4.8
6 hours - hosted daylong retreat at my house
Had a powerful time.  Vivid psychological insights into how I am poisoned by desire to control/seduce women which has been with me since childhood.  I feel strongly motivated to see it and heal whatever is causing it.  I've been through this multiple times before with different types of therapy and also different meditation phases and each time I do heal a deeper level.  But the root system with this wound is apparently incredibly strong.

I also feel this sense of trust developing in my mind.  Trust confusion.  Trust power.  Trust desire.  Trust obsessing.  Trust confidence.  Trust the universe, circumstances, the parent, the child, the person in the room, the people in my life.  It feels like a seamless, whole cloth of consistent, allowing surrender.  All of my sub minds can sit together and flourish in disagreement or agreement, either way.  If these perfect parents can trust me, than I can trust myself.

I had vivid images of hugging children and having a family of my own.  The sense of deep connection with a partner.  The sense of love for children and knowing they love you back.  The cohesive integrity of an ideal family unit, of which I am the father (in this imagining).  I think I started crying at one point.

The 2nd phase was also potent.  Lots of chakra breathing.  The parents dissolving as energy-light into each chakra.  A sense of confidence that their essence is in my bones.  I felt the energy like an anaconda slithering down my spine.  But a healing, angelic anaconda emoticon  There was a very palpable sense of getting high of the reverberations of each chakra successively.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 10:56 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/9/17 11:28 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 10

4.9

7 hours formal meditation today - hosted another daylong - 4 other SPUDS members came and sat with me in my room
I think I'll keep doing these daylongs as long as I have the time on Sat & Sun.  When we all get together & concentrate I like to think of my room as an torture chamber/execution grounds for greed, hatred & delusion emoticon

Today I dealt with many deep-seated personal issues.  I recalled years & years of anger, hatred, frustration & self criticism in the arena of dating & comparing myself to other guys & wondering why I could never get the girl (which isn't at all true I've had plenty of relationships but the bottomless pit inside doesn't care).  Many vivid & specific memories arose and I allowed myself to feel them completely & greeted them with the parental, stable, knowing trust & love.  

I also encountered what it may feel like to have the next level of mental health.  Degrees of psychoemotional clarity, calmness & confidence (all at the level of content, not perception) that I have rarely ever had access to.  I can feel the poison in my brain of stress & selfishness that I am normally so suffused in that I can't tell I'm even in it.  I had a lot of my bipolar agitation coming up for about 1/3 of the 6 hours but I feel such complete acceptance and love for it now that it is okay.  I am also experimenting with the cosmopoetic idea that all of life is one, wonderful thing and even the fighting parts can be embraced and accepted and loved.  I can actually grokk this at a body level right now even as my brain is vomiting from how corny it is.  In short - this practice is making me feel like I am in a continuous episode of the teletubbies.

We did 6 1-hour sits, separated by 4 15-minute walks & a lunch break.  I cycled through each phase in succession.  I feel my concentration is fairly strong & effortless, although (as always), it is momentary, partial concentration, which is my bread & butter.  Someday I will develop continuous, stable concentration, but not today.

4.10
3rd phase - 1 hour meditation (morning) + off-cushion

Chilled with 2 of the SPUDS in one of their hot tubs this evening & talked dharma

I feel this increasing tendency of my sub minds to agree with the mushy gushy, poetic, romantic, touchy feely end of things.  My friend Dominic said seeing me admit my own sensitivity is like having a friend come out as gay and everyone else says "yeah, we knew that 3 years ago!"  I was walking home & I started to connect to this magical sense of trust.  The basis for this trust is the knowing that I am broken & imperfect but paired with a sense of warm, glowing love-force that I seem to be developing through the perfect parent practice.  It is NOT choiceless awareness (I stick to my opinion that choiceless surrender is a terrible technique).  

As I thought this, I fell into a state that I have only had maybe 5 times in my life.  I associate it with what the actualists call the "pure consciousness experience."  What I mean by that association is based on my brushes with how the Australian founders interpret it, not how it was translated on the DhO.  There is a certain magic ooze and oneness to everything that fuses in the entire psycho-emotional structure in a way that other experiences of awareness do not.  In these other awareness experiences, there is some very slight sense of dissocation whereby I can label the perceptual & mental content axes as separate.

The key seems to be that the sub minds form a peace  treaty for the good of the system and none of them attempt to advance their agenda.  Instead they just sit and wait and trust.  It also seems key that I do not have to consciously, intentionally add on trust of the environment or of others but rather this is a natural extension of being in the body with sweet acceptance fused.   

4.11
1st phase
1 hour meditation, morning; 1 hour meditation, night
Off-cushion 

Off-cushion was more reminding/returning intermittently.  I was not able to maintain a split screen continuously.
On cushion was about holding the images & phrases.  When I got agitated I reminded myself that it is totally acceptable to feel this way & I can accept the internal family members that are doing this.

4.12
2nd phase
1 hour meditation, morning
30 min meditation, night
Off-cushion

I have been doing spiritual mind treatments daily for the following areas: career, finance, physical health, social.  I have also been having this insight into my internal family system: all sub-minds are present all the time but at times I believe some more than others.  I am able to get things done when all my sub minds agree enough about an overall goal.  Thus even if I am depressed or agitated I can still work towards that goal.  I can do this with meditation.  I now need to be able to do this with multiple goals simultaneously.  However, because I meditate all day long, I need to be able to physically act towards goals without relying on motivation from conscious emotional energy (because that bandwidth in my mind is taken up with the meditation technique).  So I have to substitute that need with a deeper belief/faith in what my body is doing in that moment.  If that faith goes deep enough, it won't matter if the cookie monster inside is acting up because he will still be on board with the greater goal (because it is hitting his root system).  

The exact nature of the belief that needs to occur could be concieved as problematic.  This is because I am immature and OCD.  I can only act on goals that come from a place of competition with myself & others.   They must be 100% in a certain direction: no greyscale, or I my sub-minds will not be interested.  I have done a lot of therapy & self-help techniques to learn moderation.  I have tried a huge portion of the methods that are out there.  They don't work.  The only thing that motivates me in life are extreme goals which stroke my ego.  In order to move forward in life, I have to accept this.  

So the summary of this insight is:
1) the right type of goal (inspiring, extreme, objectified)
2) held deep enough in the mind
3) that all my sub-minds agree
4) so that I can act on it even when depressed or agitated
5) and while meditating (without the support of conscious emotional energy)

The way all of this relates to the perfect parent is that I am coming to know myself more intimately and accepting the way I tick without trying to change that.

4.13
3rd phase
1 hour meditation (morning)

Cycled through people I know, first hugging, making eye contact, then "connecting" or "feeling attachment" to them.  Then noticing that they are attached to me.  Than doing specific well-wishing phrases based on things I know about their lives.  Then hugging again.  Then releasing them.  I also imagined I had a wife and kids and felt a deep sense of love, comfort and connection in being with them.  I imagined we were all in a minivan driving to vacation.  I imagined being with my wife in a nursery right after our baby was born.  I imagined watching my toddlers bopping around cutely, etc.  It would be great if I could do this meditation and gain the wellbeing benefits that come from these things without actually having to have them in real life - LOL.  I also imagined larger groups, like hugging everyone in Seattle, everyone commuting to work this morning, everyone in the house I live in, etc.

FWIW, I'm back to sitting on my zafu & zabuton again, which I haven't done since mid 2016.  I also felt very physically restless this morning.  It's amazing how persistent bipolar is.  No surprise it's related to epilepsy.   When I get agitated now, I turn around and perfect parent myself: hugging myself and saying "it is absolutely fine for you to be completely agitated right now.  You can still be a perfect parent even if you are not  perfect yourself."  It's just one big chain of loving acceptance.

1 hour (night)
3rd phase
The practice is repetitive and boring.  I can feel it drilling a sense of familial comfort into my brain as concentration improves.  Similar cocktail of 3rd phase imaginings I have described in previous posts.

4.14
1st phase
1 hour morning meditation

So I'm realizing via the perfect parent practice + spiritual mind treatments I've been doing a couple past misconceptions:
1) It is desirable or healthy to "change" my internal family system members (sub minds)
     a) Try to shrink or enlarge them
     b) Try to fuse them together
     c) Try to delete them
2) That I have any direct control over my sub-minds.  In contrast, "I" (the conventional ego) is actually a collective projection of these sub minds moment-by-moment.

And this is probably closer to the truth:
1) That the perfect parent practice works at a pre-verbal level.  Which is a layer deeper than the sub-minds, because it was formed before my sub-minds were formed.
2) That by removing/transforming false beliefs into truths at this level, it will have an inevitable "trickle up" effect on my internal family system.
      a) The nature of this effect will not be direct, conscious control over the dynamics of my sub-minds.
      b) Rather, they will have to decide amongst themselves what they wish to do with this new data.
3) That similar to the movie "Inception" where they have to install a belief deep in the subconscious to change the man, my best hope is to do install a belief along the lines of:
      a) The world is good/not against me
      b) I am basically good/not bad
      c) Love/positive feelings are somehow intrsinic to life experience and do not need to be earned or controlled or whatever.

4.15

6 hour daylong with two SPUDS
-Did perfect trust in self once I felt I had all the other trust boxes checked out.  The trust was in all my different sub-minds as well.
-I felt that reinventing myself is possible.  
-Did "perfect sibling" meditation via instinct.  It felt like it was powerfully repairing psychodynamics.
-I had images of releasing psychic poison from internal pods.
-I had a low-mid nirodha samappati (the strongest I've ever had),  I felt stoned/zonked out for 5 minutes afterwards.  It was like a curtain of blackness coming from forward into my mind.  And also a curtain coming from behind my eyes to meet it at which point I blacked out.  There was also electricity through my skull until the moment of blackout.
-Also did "perfect cousin/uncle/peer group/teacher/girlfriend"... Each one has a slightly different version which makes it okay to trust these people with the understanding that none of us have to be perfect.
-I imagined a perfect best friend and we were taking a day trip to a magical town and it felt like heaven + trust.
-I had another nirodha - this one I would say was "low-high" with similar effects from last time.
-I noticed more space around emotions after this NS.  **This may have been a micro shift** (I had a similar one with the PCE-like experience earlier this week)
-I felt that everything is a field of consciousness-love & that it incorporates the entire inner & outer universe of all perspectives and it is ancient and epic.
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 4/15/17 4:15 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/15/17 4:13 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
I feel like saying "Told you so" back when you were dabbling in actualism .P

Anyway, it is really my impression that you are hiking in the same territory that I've been exploring for years now.
Formally, this practice may be very different from "repeating brahmavihara phrases forever", but reading this I involuntarily start to smile and think "nice. This seems familiar. Finally."
Obviously, you describe things in a very different style than I do, but I think the only major difference is that you're using more imagination and relational elements, and that your mind naturally produces much more "special effects".

I'd like to add one thing: Looking back on my first few months of Brahmavihara practice, I really was collecting lots of "low hanging fruit". In other words, there were some dramatic seeming changes in the first few months, but after that it became less impressive: endless repetitions of stuff I've seen before, things which I just wouldn't be able to accept even a bit, and sometimes even seeming regression. But this is probably just natural, and the thing still continues to change.
Judging from your enthusiastic posts over the last weeks, I get the impression that you may be experiencing such a "pick low-hanging fruit"-phase. This isn't meant to demotivate you; just to keep expectations in check that you may be finished with this sort of practice within some months or so.
Exemplar Tantra: Week 10

4.9

I feel such complete acceptance and love for it now that it is okay.  I am also experimenting with the cosmopoetic idea that all of life is one, wonderful thing and even the fighting parts can be embraced and accepted and loved.  I can actually grokk this at a body level right now even as my brain is vomiting from how corny it is.  In short - this practice is making me feel like I am in a continuous episode of the teletubbies.

In my experience, this sort of 'opening your heart' (whatever you want to call it) is rather temporary. In other words, it's a special effect, but not too significant. Possibly, it's an indicator of progress, but I don't think it's necessary. I'd be surprised if it stays that way for you.
4.10
I feel this increasing tendency of my sub minds to agree with the mushy gushy, poetic, romantic, touchy feely end of things.  My friend Dominic said seeing me admit my own sensitivity is like having a friend come out as gay and everyone else says "yeah, we knew that 3 years ago!"  I was walking home & I started to connect to this magical sense of trust.
What does that mean?
4.12
The exact nature of the belief that needs to occur could be concieved as problematic.  This is because I am immature and OCD.  I can only act on goals that come from a place of competition with myself & others.   They must be 100% in a certain direction: no greyscale, or I my sub-minds will not be interested.  I have done a lot of therapy & self-help techniques to learn moderation.  I have tried a huge portion of the methods that are out there.  They don't work.  The only thing that motivates me in life are extreme goals which stroke my ego.  In order to move forward in life, I have to accept this.  
Here's a random idea which just came to my mind: Is it possible to frame moderate goals in extreme terms?
Doing 5 minutes of exercise a day may be moderate, but can you make an extreme goal out of that, such as "do exactly 7 push ups in 18 seconds, then 3 seconds of break, then 4.3 pullups in 23.7 seconds... and don't dare to miss even one session in the first year" or something?

Recall that "extreme goal" is extremely relative. Doing 100 pullups a day may seem extreme. Go tell that this guy who does several thousands a day. A marathon may seem extreme. Go tell that someone who does ultramarathons for breakfast. 4 hours of meditation a day may seem extreme. Go tell Noah who wants to do 7 every saturday and sunday. 7 hours may seem extreme, then go do an Ajahn-Tong-style retreat with 3 days of continuous practice without sleep... and so on.
3) That similar to the movie "Inception" where they have to install a belief deep in the subconscious to change the man, my best hope is to do install a belief along the lines of:
      a) The world is good/not against me
      b) I am basically good/not bad
      c) Love/positive feelings are somehow intrsinic to life experience and do not need to be earned or controlled or whatever.
This sounds like deliberate delusion.
a) The world is weird. It's also very much against you if you happen to be in the wrong place.
b) Your mind has accumulated some good and some bad habits. Does it really have to be more complicated than that? Personally, I think that a reasonable belief instead is something like "a human being is fundamentally valuable without further justification. Also, if you find dharma to teach you how to get even better, than you're pretty good."
c) Very soon, this will become so natural, you will cease to worry about that.
Without brahmavihara practice (or similar), positive feelings are a matter of luck and circumstances. Some cultures (not sure how the US works but tbh I have little trust in you guys' sanity) even develop a questionable deliberate scarcity mentality around those feelings, as if they have to be earned or should even be discouraged. C'MON LOL.
Keep doing this for some months, and you'll be the guy who says "I'm happy to see you" to a friend and actually feels it. You'll notice some illwill and then you realize that there's a better way and simply change this. You notice cruelty or indifference, and then you just get back to compassion.
Creepingly, this will become more and more natural, and finally you wonder why it took you 20 years and more to realize that this is possible and not even that hard?
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/15/17 10:03 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/15/17 10:03 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Hey Bernd - 

Thanks as always for participating.  There have been other times you were right and I was wrong.  At least one in which I acknowledged that on my log way earlier.  And I trust your opinion since your the expert on BV's.  That being said, I've been going for almost 3 months now & I've had both steady fireworks on the surface & deeper, progressing insight.  You tend to describe things in a different way.  I'm hyberbolic/manic in my descriptions of things.  Definitely a lot of the practice, especially off-cushion, is boring.  The only fun times are in a&p or eq.  

I just did 6 hours with 2 friends at my house and then drank a pisco sour on a rooftop bar afterwards.  It feels like I trust everyone deeply.  This trust is felt alongside the range of whatever else appears in my experience.  There is clearly a progression from more space in between the sub-minds to accepting the sub-minds to aligning them, etc.  I'm working towards heaven on earth.  That's just my M.O.  I know everyone else wants to settle for "dealing with stuff effectively."  Everyone's different emoticon
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/25/17 10:57 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/16/17 9:49 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 11

4.16
7 hours - all 3 phases - daylong retreat at my house with 6 other SPUDS throughout the day
-Noticed 2nd phase is getting deeper: When I breath in the light-essence of the perfect parents, I am taking 3 breaths (not just 1) at each chakra.  I am also imagining all the chakras at the end for longer (3 to 5 breaths).  I am then imagining the perfect parent energy circulating through my limbs.  Then all of the cells of my body buzzing with the perfect parent energy.  Then I do the embodying-the-essence-of-them that I have been doing since the first week.
-I also had multiple times when I want into a strong, concentration state effortlessly during the 2nd phase and it felt like I could sit forever.  It also felt like the state was more fused with my psycho-emotional structure than it normally is.  Like it is somehow massaging my ego.  
-I tried making the 3rd phase more fleshed out to.  I did metta phrases for a specific person or group.  Then hugging them and making eye contact before.  Then specific phrases about why they should be happy.  Then hugging again.  For the second half of the third phase sits I imagined having cute little children of my own.  I could feel the heart chakra palbably opening by imagining the little ones.
-At one point I felt/saw several layers of panes of glass shattering in my mind.  I felt inutitively that I was going deeper into the direction of trust by shattering these panes of glass.  I felt that I could trust other people's journeys for the first time - that not everyone has to do the same thing.  
-I tried experimenting with the perfect sibling again.  This led to a powerful cessation and the before/after sense of pyschological reordering.  
-I imagined holding hands with the perfect parent while staring at the night sky.  I felt/saw that the night sky was a vast expanse of pure love like caramel which began flowing into my head.  
-At another point I had what felt like a near-miss of NS but a real cessation, but with less energy.
-I felt energy coming in with a unique calmness integrating my entire self.  I had the intention for depe surrender & receiving.  A sense that waves of reality knowing itself are penetrating my entire body.  There was the sense that I may be able to partially stay this way forever.  **May have been a micro-shift**
-I am noticing less anxiety about work since yesterday.

4/17 - 4/21

Didn't do formal meditation this week.  Got less sleep b/c of friend's birthday on Monday night & then had a pragmatic dharma friend visiting SPUDS from California on Wed through Fri.  Also doing on-boarding stuff at my job which was distracting.

I also started taking a nuergenerative nootropic that can supposedly permanently cure depression & anxiety in some cases.  So far it seems to be giving me some stimulating effects.  So I also did not do off-cushion bc I was distracted by these effects & by my social engagements & job.

4.22

Sat for about 5.5 hours with the SPUDS.

Did not do perfect parent.  Instead did awareness practices.  I had a preview of a new type of awareness.  This is what I wrote at the time: 
Friends suggested Ken McLeods pointing out instructions which put me in a harder nonduality immediately with strong absorption and internal content disappeared.  I felt a powerful new level of consciousness like...VividDiamond likeClearUltra solid yet completely transparent all points being effortlessly observed from all other points - pervasive energy-mind through its entirety The intensity and noise volume of this clarity overpowers the seductive allure of subtle selfing aspects like time or cessations
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/16/17 9:51 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/16/17 9:51 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
@Bernd:  I wanted to reiterate that I can see the wisdom in your comments.  I do think it is likely that things will calm down a lot and the higher fruits of the practice will only become noticeable after this occurs.  It has been this way with other practices I've done such as noting & Thai forest method.  
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 4/20/17 3:50 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/20/17 3:50 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Noah D:
Exemplar Tantra: Week 6

3.12

Did 1.5 hours at Seattle Shambhala today.  Afterwards, asked the teacher to speak the mechanism of diety yoga in the discussion and was given an anti-intellectual, condescending answer (I <3 mushroom culture).  Did the 1st phase of the practice -- imagining parents loving me, looking at me, attending to me, giving me protection & whatever else I needed.  Feeling all these emotions in the body.  Imagining being sung too.  Etc.  At one point I experienced a "pop" again (similar to what happened when the bird entity showed up) but this time I broke through to a strong visualization of a human mother in her 30's, dark brown hair, kind blue eyes, loving presence, etc.  I decided to switch to the phrases and not do the visualization component to discourage this realistic entity from continuing to make her presence known.  I'm trying to keep things in the momentary concentration, not-hyper-realistic realm of practice.   
I know it's a bit late, but - which phrases do you mean here?
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/20/17 10:42 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/20/17 10:42 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
@Bernd:  

-She knows me
-She is taking care of me
-She values me

I was instructed that these are the key elements.  Obviously switching to other, synonymous statements is helpful.  

After feeling some degree of confidence with these phrases and movement away from my tulpa-like phase of practice, I switched back to visualization primarily and later started adding targeted metta phrases that are more personal to myself or others lives.
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 4/23/17 5:38 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/23/17 5:38 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Funny, I came to very similar conclusions as to what the phrases might be. So it seems that you described the practice very well.

My previous comment was based on my reading of your reports and seeing certain similarities.
But I previously indicated that I might want to explore this practice on my own, and have now started to actually practice this. For some reason, I suddenly felt the inclination to immediately try this (I'm now 10-20 hours in).

And it seems that I may have to partially revoke the assertion that we're talking about the same territory.
I do think that it is very similar and that the effects are very similar. I also think that those practices support each other very well and can even be neatly combined.
But setting up this imaginary being and then relating to it seems to bring something very important (and hard to describe) to the table, which is otherwise missing. I wonder why traditional Metta practice typically neglects this. Maybe it's not so important if you have your shit together to a certain degree? Maybe some people can't actually do this?
Anyway, my first impression is that this thing is awesome. It feels like it may be the missing piece in the puzzle that I've been looking for for a long time, although I have done several experiments which were very similar to this exemplar thing, and which didn't really work out. But first impressions are often misleading, so I had better refrain from writing more about this for now and practice this for another week first.
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 4/23/17 7:25 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/23/17 7:25 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
I want to add something else:
I recalled that Avi Craimer discussed some similar ideas here:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5302801
Some of that may be relevant in the context of this practice. In particular this part:
The final antidote for shame falls a little outside of most Buddhist thinking, but it's very effective. This is to mobilize the power of romantic love. Basically, you imagine that there is a beautiful person (choose gender and appearance according to your preferences, not a person who exists in the physical world) who is so attracted to you and so in love with you that they are attracted to you and love you even when you show them the parts of yourself that you consider the most ugly and shameful. For some reason this is the fastest way I've found to clear up shame. I think we must be deeply wired to seek acceptance from those with whom we have an erotic connection.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/30/17 1:21 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/24/17 9:24 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 12

4.23
Did about 4.5 hours home retreat, some with the SPUDS
I keep driving the concentration on all 3 phases of the perfect parent practice
I feel that I need to keep driving this home to have it fully integrated into my mind-body system & become a truly, others-centered, open-hearted person

4.24
1 hour meditation, morning
Did 1st phase again bc I feel that 2nd phase is only good if 1st phase pump is primed
It feels like I (tenatively) may be entering a deeper phase of the practice: one in which the perfect parent presence is more real than real life.  Thus the flame of inherent trust & love inside me will be deeper than the signals coming from outside me.  So I would be able to look anxiety or agitation in the eye and say "no" and watch it disintegrate.  But also be able to ask it "is there any truth to what you are trying to tell me right now?  Is there anything I need to act on with wisdom?"  Usually I think there is not.  The best mood is one of celebration of life & human connection.  All this ONLY makes sense with absurd degrees of trust/intimacy scaffolding built out inside.  I can't believe I'm writing it tbh.

4.25
2nd phase
20 min, morning
Various somewhat powerful x axis insights throughout the day.  Possibly multiple, permanent psychology shifts.

4.26
3rd phase
1 hour morning
Woke up very restless & in fear nana, making me thing yesterday was simply an a&p.  That being said, I can feel my mind slowly changing from this exercise.  There is the sense that all of the members of my mind deserve to be there.  That my mind is integrally whole.  I would like for it to overflow to the outside, but I am afraid that might take 10 years to stabilize.  I hope I can move on to another technique (i'll still do this one part time) in the next meeting with my spiritual friend.
Also did a decent amount of off cushion today

4.27
1st phase
1 hour morning
Had moment where it felt like all the contents of my selfing were flushed out of the hatch of an airplane.

4.28
2nd phase
1 hour morning
Very good off cushion

4.29
7 hours - daylong retreat with 6 SPUDS
Had what I suspect will be a permanent therapy shift.  While imagining hiking with perfect son, perfect dad popped up, then perfect granddad.  Felt all of these loving bonds.  Then many more humans popped up.  Then the screen went white & I had a cessation.  After that it felt like the insight "all humans are part of one family" was injected into my bone marrow.
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 4/24/17 2:26 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/24/17 2:25 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Noah D:
It feels like I (tenatively) may be entering a deeper phase of the practice: one in which the perfect parent presence is more real than real life.
Can you always feel the perfect parent presence reliably?
Are there times when the perfect parents simply won't show up?
Do you have the experience that sometimes your perfect parents will show up, but they aren't actually perfect? Could they be doing something semi-perfect to outright horrible? What do you do if you or they are not sure what they should be doing?

Does any of those questions make sense? (All of those were inspired today by my own experiments with this, so I wonder if you asked yourself those questions, too.)
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 4/24/17 7:21 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 4/24/17 7:21 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
@Bernd: I simply take them as a useful figment of my imagination.  Therefore, I find that they always do only benevolent things & I can always call them up.  I do not have a constant sense of them as part of my baseline yet.  I expect that to take years, as it would necessarily include lucidity in dream & deep sleep.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 5/8/17 8:20 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 5/1/17 4:20 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent Practice: Week 13

4.30
7 hours daylong with 2 other SPUDS
I feel a deeper thing brewing.  Here's my notes:
I'm noticing any emotion (all negative ones) can be present and there can still be some sense of animal-human-basic intimacy.

& that if I try to feel a different way or have a different opinion about someone, the sense of connection goes away.  It's like an electrical current in the ground

this seems to be the fruition of the 3rd phase for my right now

the 1st two are just to store up energy in the heart battery so I have the strength to just feel

It feels like the next steps are about cultivating the intimacy muscle.  Just feeling deeply without trying to change anything.  Imagining sitting with another human who disgusts me or makes me uncomfortable.  And holding a space with them anyway.  Holding a space - nothing more.  Slightly connecting with eye contact or a smile at most.  Feeling this sort of connection of sharing air.

My chest cavity is opening from the energetic activity there.  I feel that I can do this with my own emotions as well.  Be - observe - notice - connect - embrace - sit with.  No need to try to change. Just fully relate from one energy lifeform to another -- in a 2nd person information exchange kind of way.

5.1
1 hour morning
3rd phase


5.2
1 hour morning
3rd phase
I can feel that my mind is an eco system.  That each of my emotions has a different personality.  That other people are the same way.  It's very important to be continuously connecting to and checking in with myself.  And connecting with other people.  In a way behind my mask and their mask.  Just the raw experience of being exactly as we are in each moment.

I am receiving messages from inside: that this tenderness I am feeling is actually the way to connect with all beings.  And not just beings, but also moments, the environment.  This feels like it includes the body & heart in a way that I have not felt before with the development of first attention & later awareness.  I don't quite know what the difference is yet.
30 min night
3rd phase

5.3
1 hour morning
3rd phase
1 hour afternoon
3rd phase
off cushion 
3rd phase

So I continued to practice in this new mode of seeing today.  It feels like I suddenly gained a new power to soothe myself and others this weekend.  Soothe & connect.  In the afternoon I did a SPUDS group sit outdoors in the park.  I had some interesting experiences in that:

1) A preview of the next phase of awareness -- which involved the deconstrucing of the non-localized central processesor.  There is a pie in the sky making decisions about my experience on a subtle level.  My nondual awareness has to become nondual with that.  However that subtle "chooser" or selector is being sensed must be brought into the fold.  This experience was "held' by formless aspects of 2nd jhana & partial cessations.
2) I had the experience that i may be able to bilocate myself
3) I had a possible vision of a past life in which I abandoned my family which could help explain an obsession of mine in this current life (I take this with a total grain of salt but the lens could be helpful)
4) I may have had microshifts surronding: a. relating to the earth b. relating to the "other" (attractive women, children, extended family, disabled people) -- I did this by "mashing up" my sense of subtle barrier with these groups into the formless aspect I was experience & then dropping effort into a state of surrender, triggering partial cessations 
5) I felt one with all of life in a deeply integrated way that I have not previously felt -- it incorporated perceptual & psychoemotional & conceptual & somatic at the same time.  It was like these levels were smushed into mashed potatoes together & then rubbed onto the basic spirit of the universe.
6) I questioned, at a basic level, my very sense of having a journey, needing to make progress, needing to improve my life, etc.  I feel that this is unresolved karma (this is a troubling concept because Richard tells me it is BS yet I feel compelled to use it right now so I'm going to anyway!).  I need to stop feeding this "karma" by just living a life without it being framed by anything at a very subtle level.  I have had shifts which reduced this sort of tension in the past but they were evidently at coarser levels and now I need to spiral back deeper.

5.4 - 5.5
1 hour morning, 2x
Spent a couple days just connecting with various aspects of experience (3rd phase).  This connecting is specifically second person, not 3rd, & I haven't experienced it before this technique I don't think.

5.6
7 hour daylong at other spuds house
rotated the phases
spent time connecting with various aspects of experience (sub-minds, body, earth, plants, birds, perceptual field, humans)

Here's some other notes - 

Connecting with plants, one by one, each one individual vibration

Connecting with 2 birds chirping back & forth

Using plant vibe to connect with deeper core of earth & through that, the cosmos as a whole

Connecting with body via body first, layer of fear/protection

Vaster sense of awareness outside this shell-- going into the body-mind & "out" to space simultaneously

Sense of removing the barrier to the gratitude pipeline (for my life improvements)

Giving up ranting to parents

Body must be maintained

Selfishness is pain

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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 5/13/17 8:25 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 5/8/17 8:26 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent: Week 14

5/7
4.5 hours meditation - daylong at other SPUDS house
alternated sitting and walking on serene rooftop overlooking all of Seattle
rotated phases
spent time connecting with various aspects of experience (see notes from 5/6 in previous week)

Something is happening to me.  I feel like doing service.  I want to help spread the dharma with SPUDS.  I feel like being nice to people in my daily interactions.  I feel like giving up my desire to seduce women in favor of wholesome relationships (not necessarily monagamous, mind you).  I am noticing a sense of connection with birds and dogs.  I am noticing that different plants have different vibrations and that the earth has its own vibration.  Looking out over South Lake Union, I could see that my mind is none other than this vast expanse.  Yet I also *knew* in that that my mind was even more infinite than that expanse, for it is what gives rise to it.  Nonduality is quite enjoyable.  

5/8 - 5/13

I kinda stopped practicing this week :/
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 5/16/17 5:45 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 5/16/17 5:45 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 376 Join Date: 6/13/12 Recent Posts
Just did a whole retreat experimenting with the perfect parent thing. Not sure how much of a difference it actually made, but by now I think it's quite awesome anyway.
I guess I owe you a big thanks.
If you ever come to europe, you should drop by, and I will get you a big icecream, so big that it fills all your cravings. And it will be a tremendous icecream.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 5/23/17 7:44 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 5/23/17 7:44 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent: Week 15

5/14 - 5/20
-Continued to shirk on-cushion practice
-Began to notice a new effect:  It feels like rather than needing to use the perfect parent to either counter or suppress negative thoughts/emotions, I can simply make the choice, in the moment, to turn away from something.  Whether it be junk food, a beautiful woman, a disturbing situation, whatever, I am now able to purposely tune out of the distraction and into this oasis of quiet and peace inside.
-Following this, I have been able to restart some of the integration/right-lifestyle projects I had begun in 2016 under Richard's guidance.  However, this time it feels like I do not have to *force* anything.  Rather, these actions are a natural unfolding of the recognition of right view.  A basic commitment to stopping stress at the levels of behavior, thought, emotion, etc.  Paired with a deeper sense of faith that the big prize is yet to come; that there is a state beyond materialism which contains and transcends all the happy-chemical-sensations I could ever want.  I can see how this path works: gain skills, acquire, let go, gain skills, acquire, let go.

-Also, I met with my spiritual friend again who has been coaching me through this PP practice.  He directed me to continue with it off cushion but to add in a new phase (of sorts) on cushion.  It is a natural continuation of the 3rd phase (act as the PP).  In this extension I add in the sense of interconnectedness with all of space & time, as well as all beings.  Staying grounded in my body, I feel how my dukkha is actually an expression of this web.  The 'air' of the technique is one of illogic, nonlinearity and intuitive reverence.  Just sitting in that soup is the core instruction.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 5/24/17 8:10 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 5/24/17 8:10 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Perfect Parent: Week 16

5/21 - 5/24
Renunciation kick.  Sensory withdrawal bringing freedom.  I am engaging more with the world than I ever have in the past.  Resting on that paradox is beautiful.  Turning inwards to engage this oasis of love that I have built.  Allowing that to allow me to connect with the people in my life more fully in our interactions.  Allowing that to allow me to connect more fully with my job, with the team that I am a part of, etc.  All that, and I am not in the a&p nor hypomanic.  An even-keeled relational flow.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/7/17 8:06 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/7/17 7:58 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
5.25 - 6.7

Some notes on the past couple weeks:

Things are going exceedingly well for me, which I attribute to practice.
1-In terms of dating, I feel barriers to intimacy come crashing down & that I can increasingly communicate in efficacious ways that I have perhaps not ever (or in a long time) had access to.  
2-I was just able to sleep all night, very deeply, without any seroquel at all.  Barring the prescence of alcohol, this has never happened since I started seroquel almost 10 years ago.
3-I am both increasing my understanding of & adaptation to what I believe to be, the "real" or "hard" version of 10 fetter stream entry.  It is a mode of operation & approach to the skill of happiness that necessarily permeates every level of being.  

Point 3 is the most important out of any of these.  To be unconditonally free to express intimacy, one must be totally happy being alone & celibate.   To trust the body & sleep in a natural way every night, one must be always at ease with the prospect of going sleepless. There are many suttas which describe this quality in the 10 fetter stages.  SN 1.3, "Like a Rhinoceros", described the rugged & ruthlessly independent qualities of a noble that does not put all of their eggs in one basket (or technically, any basket).  MN 22, "Simile of the Snake", has a great section titled 'the Arahant' which symbolizes the dropping of the fetters in terms of becoming an unprotected & open building.

I am aware of how it all stems from right view.  What causes somatic/psychological/emotional/behavioral/energetic/perceptual stress to arise?  What causes this stress to cease?  Having not arisen, what prevents this stress from arising again?  

Misrepresentations of Theravada suggests that the paramis are not involved in awakening & that this was an add-on by Mahayana with the necessitation of bodhicitta.  In my experience this is BS.  The other questions to ask are, what causes somatic/psychological/emotional/behavioral/energetic/perceptual joy & connection to arise?  What causes this joy & connection to cease?  Having arisen, what prevents this joy & connection from every ceasing again?

The answer to both of these question sets is a dialectic: clear the mind of hindrances while acting in accordance wtih causality.  Increase contentment while increasing efficacy.  Get better at life while lowering one's standards to zero.  Etc.  

The only attachment necessary is to the path itself.

==========================================================================================================

On a separate note, I am increasingly trying to practice "generosity" in terms of communication.  I wish to make eye contact, say hello to & speak with more humans on a regular basis.  I am detecting some early-life delusions that being this way is somehow un-manly or comedic in nature.  This is likely because I was originally very friendly but felt rejected at times.

The original cause does not matter as much as the solution, which is to train the heart energy to be let out through the body & speech.  I notice that I have come to take pride in the fact that I do not talk all that much with coworkers & housemates.  I don't make small talk but I love making jokes & I love talking about things I am interested in.  I intend to fill in those gaps.  

This neutrality is not the natural way.  The training is to fill the body-mind with joy & then to use the expression of that joy to connect with others.  The fulfillment of this imperative is both a method & an end in & of itself.  Increasingly, I am moving towards the end-in-and-of-itself version, which is a bit scary, because I've been driven by pure anger at having bipolar disorder for the past 4 years... The anger must go, replaced by discernment.  

EDIT: I noticed myself thinking that I'm "on a roll" just now.   The underside to this is that my luck could run out.  Both of these are the same fasle belief - that this mode of operating is dependent on circumstance.  It is the exact opposite, the 8fold path (or it's equivalnent in any working system of human happiness)  is the *only* way of being that is independent of circumstance.  It can *only* arise when the nature of causality has been fully grokked & adapted to.   I am not "on a roll."  Rather, there has never been any other option other than being this way.  
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 12:08 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 12:08 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
6.8 - 6.12

I am learning that beliefs & rules are not required to operate life.  The days & work are getting shorter as I get better at my job.  I am smiling, making eye contact & conversing with others more.  I am learning that making others feel good is a more valuable dharma than helping them see a path to improvement.  I can clean my room, exercise, eat healthy, go on lots of dates, save money & maintain a household with not too much stress.  This comes from clear seeing & joy which cut ignorance & clinging.

Ignorance & clinging work hand-in-hand.  Ignorance puts on the blindfold, clinging leads the way.  Clinging is intertwined with joy such that it is hard to tell the two apart.  Clinging makes it seem like personal, two-fold human trust is necessary for joyous connection with others.  Clear seeing shows me that a relationship can simply be the sum of a series of positive interactions, without the need for a conceptual thread linking them together.  It is better for there to be bouts of forgetting into the present moment between interactions.  There may be wonderful remembrances that pop into the mind, but these do not need a spine backing them up.

Chores & logistics are the same way.  In the moment they are performed, they can done with precision, efficiency, mindfulness & optimism.  After they are done, they can be completely forgotten about.  As necessary, calendar reminders can be created to prompt the completion next time.  This is better than holding things in the rooms of the mind.

I feel that clear seeing and compassion are the links to right action, which naturally leads to selfless service.  When the cracks in the pipe are sealed, water automatically begins to flow through.  I intend to begin a weekly volunteering regimen to stay grounded.  But my true desire is to "trick" muggles into meditating through VR apps, search engine optimization, urban grassroots sanghas linked over the web, machine learning meditation advisory apps, amongst other things.  

None of these are my ideas.  They have all arisen from different members of SPUDS, our Seattle sangha.  The key is to advertise meditation as something else (like relaxation, brain exercise, creative stimulation, etc) & then get people into at least access concentration or first jhana.  Obviously a samatha-heavy method such as Buddhadasa's natural method or the elephant path must be used to remedy the dukkha nanas.  

SPUDS has 6 software engineers operating at a very high level.  We all have path attainments.  Can IMS, Spirit Rock or any other mainstream centers boast this?
shargrol, modified 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 6:02 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 6:02 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 2344 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Awesome stuff. F'ing well said.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 8:07 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 8:07 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
shargrol:
Awesome stuff. F'ing well said.


_/\_
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/17/17 12:26 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/17/17 12:26 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
6.13 - 6.16

From July 2013 to July 2015, I had to rework my perceptual mechanism.  From August 2015 to July 2016, I had to learn new life skills through grueling, unit-based antidotes & habit formation.  In late July 2016, I had another transformation to information processing, after which the unit-based habit formation became slightly easier.  In March 2017, I got another transformation to information processing, which seems to have changed my habit formation from unit-based to systems-based.  I'll elaborate:

I feel that my subminds are speaking with each other.  Rather than my conscious having to command Sub Mind A, then command Sub Mind B, A & B are already aligned by the time I turn to them.  

It started with flooding phobia of work with no possibility of action.
Then non-flooding phobia of work with possibility of action.
Then non-flooding phobia of work with unpleasant action.
Neutral action.
Pleasant action sometimes.
Pleasant action most of the time but not yet managed.
Pleasant action most of the time managed within a framework of subtle stress.
Pleasant action most of the time managed within a framework of joy. <----This is my morality cutting edge
Pleasant action most of the time without being managed. <----This is what I am working towards
Pleasant action at all times spontaneously.
Work time is no different than play time.
Life is a party.<----This is the dream
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/18/17 3:35 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/18/17 3:35 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Random Thoughts About Work/Career:

I've had insights like this before but it feels like I am returning to it at a deeper level now, ala the spiral model.
  • Work can be "fun"
  • Work need not be bucketed as separate from play, neutral activity, etc.
  • Work need not be about hours & pay
  • Hours & pay can "follow" work or be secondary to the work itself
  • I do not need to fall into the field of belief around what "work" is - I can make my own rules based on my current experience
  • I can be passionate about work without it being an identity
  • There can be enthusiasm for work without reification
  • Different aspects of life can have different flavors of positivity without being dual with each other
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/20/17 1:54 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/20/17 1:31 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
If it is true that I am capable of doing much more than I currently am, than it means that I have nothing to fear.  Meaning, I don't have major bills, children, health problems or a harder job than my current one.  Yet, I am sure that I would be capable of functioning amidst these things, as so many others do (who have much less training than I do).

The purpose of appropriate action is not to reinforce other types of ap propriate action.  The purpose of getting good sleep is not to mitigate the risk of low functioning during the day.  High functioning will occur in the presence or absence of good sleep.  Rather, it is an independent category of harmony with its own merit.  I think of them each in their own swim lanes:

| good sleep | good job performance | loving friendships | healthy habits | etc |

leading to...

| care for the body | secure future | enjoying bonds | care for the body | etc |

The point of fulfilling any one of these buckets is not to support the others, but rather for the sake of clear seeing in each moment in which they become relevant.  In other words, its just the right thing to do, without any consequence.  

Edit:

Beliefs & emotions hold things back.  To the extent that one activity is preferred over another, the degree of awareness & vitality within both will be obscured.  Everything is fun.
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 7/18/17 3:55 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 7/18/17 3:55 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Certain things are happening:

-I am learning certain aspects of relational skill.  The external aspect involves being authentic/natural in terms of the content one expresses, but being purposely skilled in the timing & form through which it is expressed.  The internal aspect is about cultivating a paradigm in which sharing & abundance are normalized/expected.  Also embodying certain values such as directness, truthfulness & independence.

-I am learning about the needed prioritization of certain life buckets.  In terms of how much relative effort of chi I put into each area, I'm estimating:
===30% body/health/sleep/hygeine/housekeeping
===25% finance & career
===20% intelligence/meditation/media consumption
===15% social/relational/communication
===10% other/hobbies/passions

Within this, there are certain 'pressure points' that tackle mulitple obstacles at once.  There are also unit-based solves that are necessary for most of the time.  But it's only logical to get as many systemic fixes on board as possible.

-With any of these lifestyle adjustments, it is not really 'optional' or 'extra.'  These are just basic ways of being that in an ideal world I would have naturally developed while growing up.  So it's simply a matter of filling in gaps to create a functional whole m.o.  
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 7/24/17 11:17 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 7/24/17 11:17 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
2 key insights in the social realm:
-don't keep score
-there's "enough" to "go around" *purposely not elaborating on this btw
These basic truths are being corrected for.  Wow it feels a lot different.  This has been haunting me for years.  Like poison leaving the system.

Feeling a slow roll conquering of the morality buckets.
-Sleep/health/housekeeping coming together on a daily basis
-Work is easy & harmonious.  Financial habits are arranged for preservation & growth.
-The mind is cared for through high quality media consumpiton & meditation.
-Service is occuring through this project of grassroots sanghas.

In the Thai tradition that I train in, "sotapanna" means these things are stabilized over time, with joy + mindfulness AND that if something terrible were to happen, I would be able to adapt & rearrange my life (inner perspective or outer circumstance) to be able to gain back a plateau of harmony.

================================

On the meditation/awareness front, I am redoing all of the sensory investigations I have already done, but with more concentration & relaxation.  Basically, I am trying to drill into the very subtle/awareness level of mind first & then do the same shifts.  Until the deep central processor drops out. *This is a deeper type of machinary than the one which creates a "feeling of doneness/completeness" when it drops away.

================================

The arenas of morality & wisdom are increasingly blended & synergistic.  As I perform antidotes such as gladdening the mind, repulsion & gratitude statements, there is the sense that the mother/ground of the sensory field is bolstering these efforts, wants me to do this, consciousness is balancing itself.  This is newer as it used to feel that the nondual perception was somehow separate from the coarser levels of conduct, speech, etc.
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Chris M, modified 6 Years ago at 7/24/17 11:54 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 7/24/17 11:54 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 5116 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Very nice!
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 8/8/17 11:18 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/8/17 11:18 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
I had a discussion of "samaya" (commonly mistranslated as vows of secrecy) with some friends tonight.  We discussed how the highest practices to reach the real buddhahood could be confusing or harmful to people.  The point was made that certain Dzogchen masters had literally only one student whom they gave full transmission in their lifetimes.  

Regardless of all the great points made, I still think secrecy is totally dsyfunctional if one's goal is to facilitate the health, happiness & wisdom for as many people, as quickly as possible.  This is essentially the stated goal of Buddhism.  There are some people saying that the *primary* goal is actually total non-manipulation of experience or neutral understanding without actual action or complete self-acceptance, which I won't get into here.  That is one obvious, common misinterpretation.  

One problem with this path is that it takes a huge amount of work.  We need to figure out ways to make it quicker.  Daniel & Kenneth have done this by enacting Bill Hamilton's vision.  Technoenlightenment (i.e. biofeedback, VR, machine learning, etc.) could also be an important lead.  Openness of information (including the pitfalls of openness) is a key function.  However, mechanisms must also be put in place to counter the pitfalls of openness & facilitate quick development for many people.  

One thing I have been working on with friends is trying to bring pragmatic dharma into in-person meetups in cities where there is interest.  The clear path forward with this is complete autonomy of each group, decentralization (no teacher) but also to provide some initial tools, general effort & inspiration.  Then to help the groups communicate with each other so that they know others exist, hopefully causing some type of natural synergy to arise.

To say it takes 10 years of hardcore dharma training to reach the end of the path (there are 2 ends that I know of as of now but they are basically one complete picture) would be incredibly optimistic.  This is unfortunate.  20 years of daily, vigorous effort may be more likely (when I say "vigorous", that would include stretches of time when the main practice is radical surrender or choicelessness).  

If every master starts teaching meditation after 20 years, when they are between the ages of 40 & 60, they would 60 to 80 when they start having students who reach their level.  Not only is this slow, it is also inefficient.  Before a certain point on the path, people are harming themselves, others & the environment through destructive forces of body, speech & mind.  These are the people who are actually on the path, fucking it up for everyone who is still in the "precontemplative" category (stages of change model - psychology/ people with bad karma - buddhism).  They are participating in shitty soceital/governmental/economic/behavioral structures because they still don't know much better.  

The person who finishes after 20 years needs to be working on both developing others to that level quickly & improving structures to facilitate societal change quickly.  The more structures & systems that are improved, the more people will move from precontemplative category & begin to actually look at their suffering which will snowball outward.  

Things need to happen quickly.  That's what pragmatism is about.

I've also noticed that *no one is willing to change their behavior.*  Everyone wants to do the nanas/jhanas, get some paths & be done with the work.  This sort of effort gets them approximately halfway to 10 fetter SE on average, based on the sample size I have observed, juxtaposed against the standards of the tradition I practice in.  Instead of getting pissy about this, I would like to figure out a way to trick or manipulate people into thinking that supramundane morality practice (fetter cutting, not just common sense) is a good idea.  I'm not sure what this would look like, but it's on my mind.

Another main takeaway for me is that things have to be mainstream, normalized, popular, secular, whatever.  They can't be alternative, hardcore, deep, overly technical, religious.   We need more trojan horses.  Ways to trick people into awakening.  Trick people into looking at themselves in a way that actually works quickly & really, really well.  Not sure what it looks like.  Don't think I'll be the one to think of it.  But glad to contribute to the river of intention here emoticon
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 8/12/17 1:10 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/12/17 11:27 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Write Up On The Natural Method

So the theory goes that the buddhists lists have a mundane level, where they go in rigid order & a supramundane level, where they go out of order.  This is all comes from the lineage of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, who’s a bit of a celebrity in Thailand & Theravada world in general for reviving the old school & hardcore side of things.  My teacher Dhammarato studied with him for 7 years & is now encouraged to teach by one of Buddhadasa’s lineage holders, Ajahn Po.  

Morality-> concentration-> wisdom = being a decent person gets you a restful mind which gets you access to liberating insight

Wisdom-> morality-> concentration = Using liberating insight allows you to examine your life which produces complete alignment/unification of body, speech & mind at every level

The 8fold path also has a mundane level (this is the traditional layout):
  • Right view
  • Right intention
  • Right speech
  • Right action
  • Right lifestyle
  • Right persistence
  • Right mindfulness
  • Right unification

And a supramundane one:
  • Right view
  • Right intention
6. Right persistence
7. Right mindfulness
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right lifestyle
8. Right unification


The general theme is that liberating insight is not the be-all-end-all.  It is the core realization or “path” from which the full embodiment or “fruit” grows.  Since you already have incredible persistence & mindfulness, it should be easy to use these tools to make a full open-ended investigation of your speech, action & lifestyle off the cushion.  By the way, these portions of the 8folds are not separate.  Right speech & action form patterns which become right lifestyle.  The traditional ‘right livelihood’ is essentially a template for beginners rather than the original meaning.

The right view & intention part comes into play here.  Everything is in a constant state of flux, including you.  Nonreactive equanimity is an important practice for on the cushion to gain clarity.  However, off the cushion, the goal is *balanced equipoise*.  Meaning, using that choiceless awareness (equanimity) to make decisions & control your reality according to the data gained through mindfulness (equipoise).  

The goal is the same in all of these pursuits: the end of suffering.  However, reduction of negativity is not enough to do this.  There must be a willful increase in positivity to balance things out.  This is basic math (lol).  We have to work with conditionality.  The only way to change a pattern is to persistently alter it.  Thinking that using anything but equal or great energy to change an existing pattern is ‘magical thinking’ or ‘attachment to rites & rituals.’  This stuff takes work, but it the more optimism & joy you bring the work, the more it feels like play.

Here’s the work itself - when investigating right speech, action & lifestyle, the goal is to notice which things feel good subjectively & have good objective effects & do them more.  Wire in both the positive feeling & the healthy action.  For things which feel bad subjectively & have good objective effects, change your mind about them by repeatedly altering your thoughts, emotions & deeper value system (increase positive).  For things which feel good subjectively & have bad objective effects, do the same, but increasing negative feelings about the action.  Also for this type, practice persistently changing the behavior on a daily basis, wiring in a new habit.

It is vital to mention that surrendering to negative feelings is also a necessary component.  Everything in balance.  Might be good to do 50% surrender, 50% of the control in the aforementioned paragraph.  Use your intuition when finding this balance, but also realize the modern spirituality/buddhism has an *extreme bias* towards choiceless nonreactivity which is part of the so-called “mushroom culture.”  In general, I would advise to err on the side of wise, mindful control of conditions rather than just letting them be.  

The goal is to “iron out” your days so that they become uninterrupted flows of positivity.  Of course positivity takes as many forms as nature takes.  We’re not trying to ‘sanitize’ or ‘neuter’ ourselves here or anything like that.  Beauty, joy, appreciation, energy, excitement, inspiration, etc all occur in an extremely diverse, expressive range.  There is also a place for the energy of anger, sadness, anxiety, grief, etc. but not with the narrative storylines scaffolding those things.  Just experience them, let them pass through you though, then return to creating the joy.  

Gradually, the subconscious becomes completely unified for the elimination of suffering, not just at some core or fundamental level, but at every level.  It becomes increasingly effortless to comply harmoniously with arising conditions.  Perception, speech, action & behavior are no longer separate things but are one vehicle for joy.

I want to reiterate that this training is not the same as what is described on most days on the pragmatic dharma forums.  This is a type of training which actually breaks the fetters as described in the buddhist texts.  Happiness in terms of mastery of life, emotions, etc. -- not just at a spiritual level or in terms of ‘consciousness’ or ‘ultimate insight.’  The reason we don’t have many examples of individuals who have successfully done this is likely that none of them are famous.  There is an inverse relationship between following this path & being charismatic.  Good teachers are good salespeople.  Trues sotapannas (stream enterers) are fucking boring, but are the happiest people on earth.

“They’re not common, but they’re nothing special” - Buddhadasa, when asked about stream enterers.  

Every waking moment of every day is another chance to renew this way of happiness.  Your entire life is the arena of dharma.  Feel into this abundance of opportunity for creating happiness out of conditions!

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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 8/21/17 12:07 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 8/21/17 12:07 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
I have been reading Mahasi's "Manual of Insight" & was surprised to see that the approach to the eightfold path is not that much different from the Buddhadasa lineage.  Specifically, both teachers held that sila & prajna trainings were meant to be taken up in tandem & were really two sides of the same coin in terms of total investigation of life.  I've also been listening to more Mahayana teachings lately, although I need to find an early commentary to read (not modern teachers).  I've become less trusting of dharma talks as of late.  I don't necessarily believe that modern teachers are translating words & concepts directly.  I'd rather see the Pali, Sanskrit or Tibetan & view a couple comparison translations to get a feel for the varying contexts of usage.

It is becoming clear to me that I need a complete psychological restructuring if I am to truly take on the 10 fetters in all of their manifestations.  I practice supramundane 8fold path daily but it is a lot of fucking work.  Yes, I do take on a meta-cognitive, zestful ease.  Yes, I have spent many hours on choicelessly accepting my feelings & similar amounts of time on wiring in positive feelings.  The problem with all of this is that it is taking place on top of deeper psychological structures.

There is a level in which one sees dependent origination in action.  They see how mind constructs reality.  They see that this display of the sensorium is "merely a construction" & is complete empty of inherent existence.   That is a great realization.  But it's not the full realization.

The full emodiment or integration of that is when one's surface personality, deep psychodynamics, speech patterns & bodily habits are all completely aligned with the actuality of the luminous, groundless display of energy in which we live.  In order to that, you have to really, un-poision yourself of greed, hatred & delusion.  It's honestly not being a normal human anymore (LOL).  

Morality is a lot of fucking work, until it's not.  And it's not whenever I can convince myself, my child self, my teenage self, the masculine part of myself, the philosphizing part, all the selves - that renunciation is completely necessary.  All aboard the renunciation train.  One way ticket to paradise.  The antidotes need to seep to a deeper level of mind.  I'm torturing myself by blocking sensory restraint from becoming the new program adopted by the inner congress.  Let it happen.  Let go.  Transform.  

What are these antidotes?  They have to do with balancing energy.  Not rejecting or repressing anything.  Having the choice of what to eat, where to live, whom to be in relation with, what information to consume.  Full choice to completely indulge or be completely discipline.  Liberation.  

My main antidotes are needed for...
-Food/Gluttony
-Restlessness/Insomnia
-Laziness/Avoidance
-Lust
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 9/3/17 12:00 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/3/17 11:56 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Notes for presenting supramundane sila to practice group:

-SILA IS NOT DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE/UNMAPPABLE
Most people see morality/sila/conduct/discipline as non-linear/different for each individual.  The most they will think to "structure" it is as a support for concentration ("don't be an asshole" helps you "get access concentration).  This is problematic because the former is too complex & the latter is too simplistic.  Sila is not entirely non-mappable/different for every person.  It is also not so simple that it can be thought of as 'only a support for concentration.'  This assumes that insight is the ultimate outcome of practice, which is not what the Buddha taught.  The Buddha taught that the entire 8fold path is the outcome of practice.  Thus not only are subtle ignorance & clinging averted through insight, but all matters of coarse level craving/defilement are completely rerouted through a variety of means beyond vipasssana.  Furthermore, the paramis must practiced purposefully to allow the 8folds to flourish.  

-SILA IS NOT THE PRECEPTS 
Sila is much, much more than keeping the precepts.  The precepts are simply a templated list of rules that allowed the teachings to conveniently be passed down orally & then preserved in writing.  One can take the precepts & make a practical teaching out of them, which is what Thanissaro Bhikhu does, but one can also "grokk" what they are pointing towards & use that core understanding to make decisions at the levels of thought, speech & action.

-SILA IS ABOUT CHANGING HOW ONE FEELS & THINKS INSIDE
Sila is all about how one feels & thinks inside & how that will make it very, very easy to have perfect morality, 100% of the time, on the outside.  (I am not interested in defining what "perfect morality" is through hours of philosophical argumentation.  If you need to define, baby, you ain't got it.)  Most people think sila is about outer discipline & they are completely wrong.  It is about being willing to change everything & anything within onself to adapt to the requirements of life.  Since there is not-self in Buddhism, nothing is sacred.  Your beliefs, values, emotional patterns, psychodynamics, thought-speech patterns are not sacred.  Many of these things will need to be destroyed, some altered, some actually increased - depending on what is skillful for the situations of life.  You are a robot that needs to be tweaked to get complete happiness, all the time.

-There is not one, sila map.  However, there are a few good maps that are more metaphorical than phenomenological.  By mulling them over in one's mind repeatedly, one can gain a solid sense of how sila broadly progresses in humans.

MACRO MAPS (I.e. things on the level of "paths" over time)
1. Practice, performance, play
2. The fruit, the gold, the diamond
3. The 7 factors of enlightenment 
4. Five Grades of mental purity - https://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Levels_of_Leaving_Behind.htm
5. Graduated Discourse - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/refuge.html
6. 10 Paramis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81

MICRO MAPS (i.e. things similar to the scale of one progress of insight)
1. Substitution of opposites - https://what-buddha-said.net/drops/IV/Suitable_Substitution.htm
2. 5 Hindrances in general
3. Types of morality (from Manual of Insight)
     a. By means of ....(restraint, abandonment, abstinence, mental volition, nontransgression) 
     b. Also... (morality as conditions for concentration & insight, morality that arises from power of meditation)
     c. My point is not to go through each of these one by one, but rather to point out how many different types of morality there are, which are all analogs to modern methods such as psychotherapy, lifestyle adjustment, organized religion, etc.  A full curriculum is necessary to acheive 100% morality, which is the goal defined by the buddha in the Pali Canon

-DEFINE CLEAR GOAL IF IT DIFFERS FROM THE FETTER MAP
I would not recommend that everyone go for the goal defined by the Buddha in the Pali Canon.  However, it is recommended that everyone clarify how their final goal differs & have a clear plan & set of techniques in how to get there.  Pragmatic dharma is pretty good with that in that most people are honest about the perceptual effects they experience being their goal & not wanting to try to dramatically improve their thoughts, emotions, words & conduct.  The only problem I have then is the occassional attempt to reconcile the traditional path/fetter model with the their experience.

-MEANING OF UPROOTING A FETTER
What it actually means to break/uproot a fetter.  Fetter is handcuff.  Without a handcuff, a hand or foot should have *full range of motion*.  Very few humans ever actually acheive this total freedom of conduct over a platform of happiness.  


-THE TEXT DO NOT CONTAIN FULL EXPLANATION OF SILA
One needs to 'read between the lines' quite a bit to fully grok what is being pointed to with things like the precepts, the paramis, the 8fold path, etc.  One example of what can go wrong is modern western society's over-emphasis on meditation as the core of Buddhist practice rather than flourishing joy in every area of one's life.  
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 9/22/17 2:32 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/22/17 2:30 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Humility, Samaya & Sleep

For a few years since I've been interested in dhamma, I thought samaya was bullshit.  I had associated the term with it's traditional meaning of 'vow of secrecy' within a vajrayana context.  Recently I heard a respected friend translate it as "pure intent": a way of protecting the vitality of one's realization & the crazy techniques used to get there.  They said that if modern Buddhism completely did away with this, some equivalent would be necessary to replace it's underlying mechanical function.  This made sense to me.

I have a job that is fast-paced & high-stakes enough (at this early point in my career) to sometimes keep me up at night.  I need to maintain this job for the time being, but it is not my end game.  Recently, I discovered that the view which cuts through this anxiety is clarity on the four requisites; remembering that what I actually need is food, shelter, clothing & medicine.  In other words, if I lost the job, I could find another way to meet these basic, material needs.  That said, I still need to do the job tomorrow, so balanced detachment rather than total detachment, is what's necessary.

Balanced detachment isn't acheivable if I'm worried about my own well being beyond the basic requirements of the four requisites.  If I desire extra resources for myself beyond those four, now & in the future, than the anxiety actually has legitimate ground to stand on.  By the way, this view is not merely an antidote to the hindrances, it is also the basis of the four noble truths in my opinion.  This is where humility comes in.  Humility (to me) is the clarity around how I fall into the context of the causal field.  Specifically, my place in it is not more important than meeting my own basic survival and freedom needs.  Beyond this external situation, I will let my training take care of the rest (internal and individual choices).  

The ego patterns do tend to creep and fuck this humility up.  Enter samaya, or pure intent.  The strength of a vow to cut through the delusion that my life is important at some solid, centralized, reified level.  The intent to penetrate the illusion that I need more than basic food, shelter, clothing and medicine, now and in the future.  Maintaining this through means of humility.

There are various ideas I have for projects related to sharing the dhamma.  But these ideas only work if "I" am out of the picture.  This truly, truly, can not be some search for meaning in my own life or a way to become a well-rounded contributor to society or some new age path to expressing my gifts or whatever other soul-reification process spiritual types tend to participate in.  Efficiency in helping others is what matters.  Working and running lean.  Living with less and being effective in service.  Point A to point B, drop all the extra baggage. 
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 6:15 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 6:13 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
There's this interesting process of digging into my fears.  This is in a much, much different way than when I was going through the insight knowledges (at least as I have understood & been taught them).  Moreso at a 10 fetter level now, if such a thing exists: full-scale personality-somatic-value-system reorganization & release.

In understanding my insomnia, I came to the realization that my body stays awake about once every five nights, after I'm "recharged."  Due to the false belief that 'I need to be awake because there aren't enough hours to meet all my needs.' The cutting-through of this false belief (to heal the insomnia) is the true observation that my so-called "needs" are mostly just cravings disguised as the promise of happiness (paradoxically, they always bring on unhappiness).  

Food, shelter, clothing, medicine - Externally, that is what I need.  Beyond that, the internal is matter of training, not of obtaining the proper external conditions to assuage my internal world.  However, the subtle ways that I think that I do actually need more are incredibly sneaky. 
  • I wouldn't need more if I didn't live where I do (but do I really need to live here?)
  • I have the legitimate need for creative expression or romantic pursuit or to travel and see the world, & these things require resources (are these legitimate needs?)
  • Its unrealistic to think that I could eat just any diet, wear just any clothing, live in just any house (is it unrealistic?)

I can feel basic survival fears around sex and money.  

The money piece is about the career - "what is to become of me?"  If I am honest, I go through into each possible, worsening scenario & they are honestly not that bad.  The real question is not "how will I earn enough money?" but rather "how will I get the four requisites, now & in the future?"

The sex piece runs into another type of value system I have inherited from my grade-school years (I think).  It's complex, with intersections about my self image, my preferences & adopted, bullshit preferences.  Seeing through all the projections & holograms, it's actually fairly simple, just about humans interacting with each other.  

When I truly bump up on these scenarios & realize that I would not only survive, but be happy in them, there is a bit of crazy-making feeling.  Like the boundaries of what is possible are being stretched.  I have all of these prejudices against things like "being poor", "living sloppy or dirty", dating an unnattractive person, not being attractive myself, eating the right food, etc.  I see they are glass panes when I thought they were open rooms.  
seth tapper, modified 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 8:05 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 8:05 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 477 Join Date: 8/19/17 Recent Posts
Hey - have you ever been able to see fears and cravings and not yours? As just shit that has been trained into you through no fault of your own?  As nonsense that will go away by itself if you stop participating in it?  It is a more honest way of looking, I think, and feels alot better in my experience. 
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 10:16 PM
Created 6 Years ago at 9/26/17 10:16 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
seth tapper:
Hey - have you ever been able to see fears and cravings and not yours? As just shit that has been trained into you through no fault of your own?  As nonsense that will go away by itself if you stop participating in it?  It is a more honest way of looking, I think, and feels alot better in my experience. 

Hi Seth - Yes I think I've done this practice that you describe a decent amount.  The complete goal of it obviously has not worked, as I am not a 10 fetter arahant, but I don't think many are emoticon Both the anatta lens in your quote & the one I describe have given me wonderful clarity that has remained persistent.
Yilun Ong, modified 5 Years ago at 4/4/18 5:26 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 4/4/18 5:26 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 623 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Noah D:

The full emodiment or integration of that is when one's surface personality, deep psychodynamics, speech patterns & bodily habits are all completely aligned with the actuality of the luminous, groundless display of energy in which we live.  

Morality is a lot of fucking work, until it's not.  And it's not whenever I can convince myself, my child self, my teenage self, the masculine part of myself, the philosphizing part, all the selves - that renunciation is completely necessary.  All aboard the renunciation train.  One way ticket to paradise.  The antidotes need to seep to a deeper level of mind.  I'm torturing myself by blocking sensory restraint from becoming the new program adopted by the inner congress.  Let it happen.  Let go.  Transform.  

What are these antidotes?  They have to do with balancing energy.  Not rejecting or repressing anything.  Having the choice of what to eat, where to live, whom to be in relation with, what information to consume.  Full choice to completely indulge or be completely discipline.  Liberation.  


Dear Noah,

Sorry to dig this thread up but it has helped me a lot and <curious> is writing an essay and I think he will benefit from the insights in this thread. I would like to ask you if you have any insight into the antidotes that you have been working on? I am interested in optimal fetters-removal, and obviously struggling at the lizard/ape stage of subjective good overpowering the objective good repeatedly!

Thank you! _/ \_
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 4/4/18 8:57 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 4/4/18 8:57 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 1211 Join Date: 9/1/16 Recent Posts
Yilun Ong:
Noah D:

The full emodiment or integration of that is when one's surface personality, deep psychodynamics, speech patterns & bodily habits are all completely aligned with the actuality of the luminous, groundless display of energy in which we live.  

Morality is a lot of fucking work, until it's not.  And it's not whenever I can convince myself, my child self, my teenage self, the masculine part of myself, the philosphizing part, all the selves - that renunciation is completely necessary.  All aboard the renunciation train.  One way ticket to paradise.  The antidotes need to seep to a deeper level of mind.  I'm torturing myself by blocking sensory restraint from becoming the new program adopted by the inner congress.  Let it happen.  Let go.  Transform.  

What are these antidotes?  They have to do with balancing energy.  Not rejecting or repressing anything.  Having the choice of what to eat, where to live, whom to be in relation with, what information to consume.  Full choice to completely indulge or be completely discipline.  Liberation.  


Dear Noah,

Sorry to dig this thread up but it has helped me a lot and <curious> is writing an essay and I think he will benefit from the insights in this thread. I would like to ask you if you have any insight into the antidotes that you have been working on? I am interested in optimal fetters-removal, and obviously struggling at the lizard/ape stage of subjective good overpowering the objective good repeatedly!

Thank you! _/ \_


Hi Yilun,

I wrote this in August - things have improved since then.  In December there was some layer of depression that lifted from my experience.  I didn't even know it was there before.  After that it became easier to act in line with skill.  Also, more recently, there has been a marked increase in the sense of control or dominion over this mind-body system.  I understand now that most of the time, it does what I tell it to do.  And that most of the time when things seem out of control, its actually just a sub mind throwing a termper tantrum, disguised as legitimate sleepiness, legitimate tiredness or some other need.  

I share this because I think it is directly related to my work with antidoting & how that work has combined with insight into the nature this observational process.  I have a ton more work to do with antidoting.  I suppose that work continues at least until 2nd path full fruit, if not 3rd.  At some point I would imagine that afflictive emotions become too subtle to be treated with the coarse attentional movements that antiodoting involves, but perhaps at that time one learns a subtler form of antidoting.  Anyways, talking out of my depth so I'll stop. 

I'm assuming you know some sutta references, but here are some of my favorites for antidoting:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.soma.html
5 ways to remove distracting thoughts
1 - reflect on a different object connected with skill
2 - ponder the disadvantages of the unskillful thought
3 - endeavor to be without attention & reflection
4 - remove the thought source of those unskillful thoughts
5 - restrain, subdue & beat down the evil mind, with the good mind

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html
Fermentations to be abandoned by...
1 -  by seeing
------6 wrong views (minus)
2 - by restraining
------primary defilements directly from the sense faculties
3 - by using
------food/shelter/clothing/medicine
4 - by tolerating
------too cold/too hot/hungry/thirsty
5 - by avoiding
------injury/illness
6 - by destroying
------thoughts of sensual desire (secondary defilements)
7 - by developing
------7 factors of awakening

For 4, 5 & 6, also see - http://resiliencemaps.org/
Yilun Ong, modified 5 Years ago at 4/5/18 12:02 AM
Created 5 Years ago at 4/4/18 11:57 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Thank you Noah! That's a load of useful information! I will experiment and report back to you, or ask again when I feel stuck. All the best to your endeavors! emoticon

I feel that my sub-minds like to throw their tantrums via dreams, not sure how that is manifest, but rejected bad habits like to show up in my dreams.
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 4/6/18 11:41 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 4/6/18 11:41 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Yilun Ong:
Thank you Noah! That's a load of useful information! I will experiment and report back to you, or ask again when I feel stuck. All the best to your endeavors! emoticon

I feel that my sub-minds like to throw their tantrums via dreams, not sure how that is manifest, but rejected bad habits like to show up in my dreams.

I don't have a Buddhist source for this, but my understanding from even outside Buddhism is that psychological work done in dreams is more powerful than in waking reality.  This is similar to the idea that psychotherapy can be done more quickly after one has had various 'technical path shifts' or permanent awakenings.  Beyond that, I know of a few different theories about what happens with sleep.  One is that you actually stop having dreams with content if everything is resolved, deeply into the mind.  Another one is that one first holds awakened nonlucidity throughout sleep & dreams release samskaras regularly.  Later, with awakened lucidity in sleep, there can be not only that release, but also manipulation of the dream state for various advanced practices (i.e. bilocation siddhis, visionary states).  Anyhoo, just to touch on the wonderful adventure of dream work.  I've barely scratched the surface myself.  First I need to sleep without any medication consistently (I still use the smallest possible dose of a med for insomnia).  Then I'll try my hand at lucidity.
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Noah D, modified 5 Years ago at 4/6/18 11:50 PM
Created 5 Years ago at 4/6/18 11:50 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Bigbird:
Do you work directly or use the component that is the source or your stuff. 

Can you define "work directly" & "use the component"?  I think I need to understand these two terms to get the context around your point.

My guess (based on your later sentences) is that "work directly" means taking the energy system as a focus object & "use the component" would be more like taking coarser layers of reality (see/hear/feel of body & mind) as a focus object?
What im interested in is do you use this as a component in any practice or look at it another way?Maybe dont regard it as a source? Also because if some one wanted to address their pshycology this is targeting the source. It can be worked with directly. However noting doesn't fit with it as one loses the really subtle feel to it all, that ones needs. I will delete the other stuff below in a week or so. Just looking for some feedback  and also saying don't apply to much importance to things that may just up an go, if you apply letting go with a non conceptual mind.

Without being confident in the answer, I would say that I do a mix of both practices.  Bottom up & top down.  Body, mind, spirit.  Conscious, shadow, etc.  Or at least I try to (not necessarily succeeding).  
Two other questions. Have you heard any talk of the nadis, chakra system dissolving into vibration, which fades into emptyness.

I don't recall hearing specifically about this.  Your approach reminds me of a friend of mine who loves to talk about energetics in a similar fashion.  I could connect you two if you're interested.

Have you heard of cycling, nanas, blip and reboot of POI coming to a end in a 10 hour variable display which showed they could be out of order, or missing qualities, everything becoming individual sensations then forming back into nanas finaly cycling at speeds that created the hitting walls experience which means nanas each had a different vibration. Before this was over i saw the cycling  do some fancy stuff and were able to do a complete round in 20 or 30 seconds.This finished with around 6 blips. When things had settled everyone was gone. I don't know about the Blip, but i dont get any build up release experience that indicates anything to Reboot so Reboot and Blip dont initiate. That was over 4 years ago. About 2 months later dissolution loosely came together for 20 seconds then dissolved. 

This sounds like the Review nana.
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bernd the broter, modified 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 7:10 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 7:10 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah D:
6.8 - 6.12
None of these are my ideas.  They have all arisen from different members of SPUDS, our Seattle sangha.  The key is to advertise meditation as something else (like relaxation, brain exercise, creative stimulation, etc) & then get people into at least access concentration or first jhana.  Obviously a samatha-heavy method such as Buddhadasa's natural method or the elephant path must be used to remedy the dukkha nanas.  
a.k.a. "lying"
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Noah D, modified 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 8:07 AM
Created 6 Years ago at 6/13/17 8:03 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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@Bernd:  Whatever works emoticon

Technoenlightenment can have an impact.   As long as it's not monetized, which is what everyone else has done wrong so far (that & the ppl making the stuff haven't been enlightened).  We're gonna copy left the shit out of everything- free forever.
shargrol, modified 7 Years ago at 2/22/17 6:02 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/22/17 6:02 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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You belong.
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Noah D, modified 7 Years ago at 2/22/17 11:06 PM
Created 7 Years ago at 2/22/17 11:06 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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shargrol:
You belong.
Thank you.  This technique may be the long route to stabilizing that.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/8/16 1:20 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/8/16 1:20 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Russell .:
From your other thread: "You should really consider not wanting things, Noah!"
Russell, I appreciate your help, thank you. Rd was talking about not wanting material things.  He is a complete advocate for being gung-ho about meditation progress.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/9/16 2:03 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/9/16 2:03 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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3.9

Last night while meditating I had the thought that the times of success with anapanasati were actually more boring because they involve sustained, monotonous repitition.  It also felt like this with noting.  I take this as a good sign, when there is some annoyance with the meditation technique, paired with an overwhelming sense of momentum to keep going, because you are obviously in the groove, on a path, etc. I tried other techniques where I didn't have a good teacher, like actualism, makeshift-mahamudra, and direct-mode, and none of them had this feeling.  Boredom and having a teacher are both good signs, imo.  

How many weeks or months of breath concentrion on and off cushion will it take me to meet Rd's criteria?  Probably some months.  To be honest, I am more interested in the samatha aspect of the training than the vipassana, since I have already done so much of that.  Regardless, he has begun to intruct me in vipassana stuff, and I assume a more vipassana-heavy phase of training is to follow.  Leading to what he calls "seeing nothing" (cessation)..  Whenever I complain about my life he says "Well Noah.... You ain't seen nothing yet," and then has a hearty, belly laugh.  
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 3/11/16 10:32 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/11/16 10:32 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
[quote=Noah]3.9

Last night while meditating I had the thought that the times of success with anapanasati were actually more boring because they involve sustained, monotonous repitition.
Not sure if this is relevant but I've found that just about everything in the world seems really boring and uninteresting, paradoxically, I am just hair's breath away from a state when everything feels just great and perfect as is.  The boring feeling I am talking about is not depression because it is not accompanied by other symptoms of depression, it's not really a bad state even, there is no anxiety or other much worse feelings, just boredom is the only 'bad' feeling. I can sometimes make the last step by just kind of realizing I can enjoy the boredom, except it, etc, something like that although i can't fully describe how I am doing it.  Anyway, just felt like I wanted to say that super boredom can be a stage and a useful one and don't worry, it is not permanent, at least not in my experience.  Not sure if that will  help any but there it is. 
-Eva 

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 3/11/16 11:16 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/11/16 11:16 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Eva:

Anyway, just felt like I wanted to say that super boredom can be a stage and a useful one and don't worry, it is not permanent, at least not in my experience.


Agreed.  Thanks for that.
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Laurel Carrington, modified 8 Years ago at 3/5/16 11:17 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 3/5/16 11:05 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
@Laurel:  As a very belated comment, I just wanted to thank you for your participation, and declare that everyone is welcome to play, especially if they are going deep!
Thanks, Noah! What-if questions might be useful to tease out our worst fears, so that we may examine them. It has worked for me when I have found myself beset by the kind of desire that thinks, I have to have this or that outcome or else!

ETA: And that doesn't mean the desire to function well, pay bills on time, or maintain steady employment is a bad thing in any sense. Kenneth Folk once told me that if it weren't for our aversions, we would be eating rotten meat. Put into that perspective, I can say that desire and aversion can have a role to play in life. If the thought of harming someone or something (like crushing your pet to death) fills you with horror, that is definitely not a weakness to be overcome, but the sign of a person with compassion. 

What you seem to be describing is the desire to obtain and maintain spiritual fitness, to quote Kenneth yet again. That doesn't mean a complete level of control over life, any more than physical fitness couldn't be radically altered by an accident or illness. But even so, the impaired individual can do the best he can under whatever circumstances he is in. I attended a pain management clinic in October, and while there saw dozens of people at the facility (not necessarily in my program) with terrible injuries and illnesses who were learning how to develop the best level of functioning possible. For spiritual fitness, I would suggest that difficult circumstances can be the necessary prod to work on it. People who feel that everything is going fine may lack motivation. When that illusion is shattered, those types may suddenly wake up enough to try something different. 
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 2:50 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 2/27/16 2:50 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
 
But also more recently I had a late night conversation with my room mate and his girlfriend and they seemed to be challenged or offended by the way my core attitudes orbit around self improvement. 
Consider this, if they were to accept that your efforts are important and useful, they would also feel pressure to do the same or feel like a guilty lazy slacker if they don't.  And deep inside they know doing the same means facing some hardcore demons, it's not just bipolars that have a lot of %#%% to deal with, you may well be more balanced and self aware than a lot of 'normal' people at this point.  So basically, accepting your take on this process may threaten the psychological balance of some people and so will be rejected.  I don't know your associates so I coudn't say further but it is common that people who are having success can put pressure on others that might feel left behind in some way.  In alanon, I have heard stories of some people having trouble with friends trying to pull them down and back into drinking as if the change in social hierarchy and roles was something they did not like.  If you  have been able to  change and improve coming from having so many problems in the past, you might see how it could leave others feeling like lazy bums for not making similar levels of improvement.  That creates cognitive dissonance and an easy solution to avoid all that is to just 'not like' what  you are doing for some vague reason or another and reject it.  It could just be defense mechanisms to protect their current belief systems that you may be inadvertantly challenging.

For such things, you may have better luck if you lead them slowly and give then a chance to adapt slowly and say things in ways that are closer to how they already think.  But my point is them not liking 'how you think' may not have much to do with the validity or usefulness of how you think at all, but more along the lines of a clash in belief systems.  I actually personally do not speak much to my friends about the whole Buddhism thing, they are not into that at all and would likely think I have gone bonkers.  But I can get traction on quite a few Buddhist ideas but just talking about them as a common sense thing or as a good way to solve problems and keeping away from any mention whatsoever of any religion or Buddhism or airy fairy sounding thing.  Like I can say something like 'Have you ever noticed that no matter how much stuff you buy or get, after a while it gets old and you get bored with it?' And people might often at least stop and think about that for a bit since I am not asking them to change anything, just think a tad and consider something. As long as I don't do it too often or out of context and I avoid getting preachy, then it seems to not kick up much resistance.  But if I laid down the full pile of my thoughts on them, those peopel would probably run screaming (which is why I inflict it on ya'lls instead!)
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 1/23/16 11:42 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/23/16 11:42 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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And yes, I can see how it is not about escaping my experiencing, but rather about understanding it.    

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Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 11:50 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 11:50 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
1/8/16

-I just had a big fruition.  I had the thought 'I get it, the Buddha didn't want us to figure out exactly what the witness is, or isn't... Or exactly where the seat of self is... Instead, he wanted us to stop looking for it because in the looking there is stress, and this looking is the most basic type of stress there is, and is in fact the seed of all other types of stress... All other types of stress arise from the 'trying to figure it out' mechanism, which is analogous to seeking to hold things in place, or solidify or control them....'--

This is something I have known many times before, sometimes intellectually and sometimes intuitively, but this time, as the fruition energy reached my skull and expanded my inner mental-proprioceptive screen, I kept letting go and not taking it seriously, and as each new layer of energy arose, I kept disembedding from them.  My visual field is still wobbling back and forth, with my eyes open... Damn.
I suspect there are a number of dangers, first if you come to a view that you are sure of, what if you are wrong in any way at all?  if you are clinging to a view, then that prevents any evolution in that direction and what are the chances that our puny minds at such a meager state of development have all the answers exaclty right?  So clinging can block progress.  And also I think  that clinging to views is a way to try to stablize and 'control' one's environment, similar to what you are saying, but it's a false way because what you are clinging to is not stable, it's not substantial, it's just a simplistic idea.  And as you say, once clinging, any tiny lack of stability in the idea, any evidence to the contrary, any challenging view that counters it, any hint that it might not be 100% correct, all cause stress.  The more clinging to the more views, the more stress.  The more opinionated a person, you may notice those types of people tend to be upset a lot more too.  Opinions do not bring happiness!
;-P
Chris, modified 8 Years ago at 1/8/16 8:48 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/8/16 8:48 AM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

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Noah:
Hey Chris, 

So are you agreeing that the 'keep it simple, be happy' approach is a good/effective one?
For me it is.  I can't recommend it to everyone; it's a bit too simple of a life.
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 11:27 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 1/9/16 11:27 PM

RE: Noah's Conceptual Sandbox

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
[quote=
Noah]
However, the dharma-level also seems to have active sets of characteristics associated with it.  The best evidence for this is in the explanation of why certain positive thinking practices work and others do not.  If I say "I have perfect health, my body and mind are blueprints from perfect spirit.  Nothing can possibly harm them.  They are immortal"... this is obvious rubbish and does not usually work that quickly (daily effort of this type might start to work within a few months).  Instead, if I do things that will allow me to authentically relax, and do not endeavor to reach for too much too fast, then healing synchronicities will start to occur pretty fast (about a week).  

To me, this suggests that method A ("perfect everything, all the time") does not resonate with or resemble spirit/mind/energy (dharma level) as much as method B (actual relaxation and letting go and authentic appreciation of momentary joy).  In other words, there is a right and a wrong answer about what the dharma level has to say about active life processes such as law of attraction, and not just what it has to say about more passive ones such as one's perceptual baseline (enlightenment.

I figured it was more like if you try to change to something that is  very different from where you are now and also that you have trouble even believing in, then progress will be slower.  Like if you wanted to change a lemon to be more like a lime, you will make faster progress than if you wanted the lemon to be more like a birthday cake.  Instead pick something that is a reasonable step from where you are now.  Smaller steps are easier ot achieve and you can learn lessons with them that will strengthen you and make you more effective for future steps.  
-Eva

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