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Cessation of Dukkha

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Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
4/28/15 10:41 AM
Cessation of Dukkha

Just some thoughts, I had posted this elsewhere, but want to share these ideas here.


Hey Everyone,

My view, for now, well, let's see,

Dukkha is likened to the friction of the axle, when the wheel turns freely , it turns freely because there is no friction, it is greased, everything is in alignment, balanced. So when the wheel turns freely there is no Dukkha. When things are out of balance, not greased, bent, contorted, not in alignment, rusty, then there is Dukkha.

The Wheel is the Noble Eightfold Path, with Eight Spokes. When one is aligned and well balanced with the Dhamma, then there is No Dukkha arising, that is Nibbana, the extinguishment of the fire, for there is no fuel for the fire when one is in alignment with the Noble Eightfold Path. But, when one comes out of alignment, causes friction, is not balanced, then there is fuel for dukkha, and Dukkha arises again.

There is a spectrum to the amount or level of dukkha one may experience at any given mind moment, plus path stage models, etc.

So, there is Dukkha, a source for Dukkha, there is a cessation of Dukkha, and a pragmatic way to end Dukkha.

Now, is there a way to abide in perfect alignment all the time with the Noble Eightfold Path, and abide in Nibbana for ever and ever? Well, when I look into the Magic Eightball, it says, "Ask again later".

That is the view I have for now anyway.

Any thoughts?  By spectrum, I mean to say , the Path does not have to be an all or nothing affair, one can reduce dukkha, or even bring it to cessation once it arises, one dukkha at a time, one by one as it occurs, so to speak.  Living with less dukkha arising than before is beneficial, right?

But, any thoughts?


Psi

RE: Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
4/28/15 11:31 AM as a reply to Psi.
Any thoughts?  By spectrum, I mean to say , the Path does not have to be an all or nothing affair, one can reduce dukkha, or even bring it to cessation once it arises, one dukkha at a time, one by one as it occurs, so to speak.  Living with less dukkha arising than before is beneficial, right?

But, any thoughts?

I agree: living with less dukkha is beneficial, but with the caveat is that "less dukkha" is from a human-serving metric, because we do clearly work against other species, like those who cause our human disease states and sometimes beyond (e.g., malaria-->mosquitos-DEET-birds,etc). And then I look at how some maladies, what is said to be a terrible malady, sickle cell, being protective of the pain of malaria.

What Buddhism offers (in my opinion) is a study of our conditions (as Buddhism sees it: the constant change of all things and the understanding the unremittent dukkha in living, surviving and dying amid many beings doing the same) --- the impossible "good place", the "impossible sustained good ride". 
  • Like a mechanic looking at the unfixably bumpy ride caused by a wheel unrepairably deformed against its axel. Maybe a few minutes of smooth ride, then bumps (and those bumps cause other problems, depending on what's happening in the vehicle in surrounding vehicles..)
  • And then knowing that sanity and peace of mind are in compassion and equanimity, routinely letting go of the urges to try to hold onto pleasant conditions to see them as instable (like youth, health) and unreliable investments (good fortune, sensate gratifications).
  • And it further shares encouragement of skills valued by many traditions (kindness (non-hatred), generosity (non-greed), ethical disdiscipline (non-abuse), patience/forebearance and reflection. 
Naturally I feel like an imposter writing about such lofty things, but everyone gets to try their best. And for me, imposing it on no one else, the buddhist core does offer a sane and reliable understanding on which to try to train action and mind as its forerunner.

Thoughts?

RE: Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
4/28/15 12:26 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
katy steger:

I agree: living with less dukkha is beneficial, but with the caveat is that "less dukkha" is from a human-serving metric, because we do clearly work against other species, like those who cause our human disease states and sometimes beyond (e.g., malaria-->mosquitos-DEET-birds,etc). And then I look at how some maladies, what is said to be a terrible malady, sickle cell, being protective of the pain of malaria.

Thoughts?
Well, less dukkha, in the universal sense is less dukkha for all living beings.  So, for instance, less dukkha does not mean what this:

If one sees a flower, and picks the flower bring it home, placing it in a vase, one may think, Ahh, I have less dukkha, for now I have a beautiful flower in my presence.  But, not true, one has, by plucking the flower, caused the death of the flower, destroying that which they loved, dukkha.

But, within the Dhamma, one sees a flower, recognizes the beauty, but leaves the flower alone, to live or die on its own, then there is no dukkha.

So, yes, there is dukkha, and freedom from dukkha, but not at the cost of creating more dukkha around us, that always comes back later as a repercussion, sometimes larger.

Katy, you are no imposter, and these are not lofty phenomenon to be discussing.  It is just phenomenon.  

And, we all change from moment to moment, so there is no real need to hold on to anything in the past, it is irrevocably gone, forever.  Even tomorrow, we will all be a different mind and body formation. Does that sound lofty when I state something like that?  It is not my intention, if it does I apologize.

Hell, I apologize for ever sounding lofty, the mere notion is against how I feel, I know I am just one of 7.3 billion humans, in the middle of a practically infinite sized universe, that this is all just phenomenon, and there is no core self, just changing mental and physical process.  Humility does not even begin to describe it.

But, jeez, even fighting  malaria, humanity fighting nature, even to the point of becoming so skilled at fighting disease, and excelling at agriculture production, that we are ever becoming overpopulated, but not without repercussions, sometimes larger.

Even becoming a minimalist and reducing what one consumes is seemingly futile, as 150 new people are born every minute...

More plastic bottle caps...

I guess one just has to accept that there is suffering, and just do what we can, and add suffering to the world as little as possible, that is all we can do , right?

I guess also, my idea of dukkha does not include pain and death, pain and death are just phenomenon, dukkha arise from the not wanting to experience pain, and not wanting to see or have death, or not wanting to experience pain or death, and the flip side, dukkha arise when one wants everything to be beautiful and nice, wants humans to behave and be good, wanting peaceful , joyous feeling to arise all the time, these things too are just phenomenon, and the dukkha is the wanting things to be different than they are.  And I know you know this, I am just trying to elaborate what I think dukkha is.

And, again, this is not to say one should not try to do the right thing and just just give up on trying to get the boat of humanity to steer in the right and more harmonious direction.  For, to not try , also creates dukkha, in my opinion.

For instance, we, as humanity should outlaw plastic cups, bottles, and straws, and everyone should use a stoneware mug to drink out of.  This is logical, doable, would save an unknown amount of environmental hazard and waste, yet here we are, as humanity guzzlin and chucking bottle after bottle out the window.

Billions and Billions of bottles...  Humans are worse than Malaria...  But perhaps just both impersonal phenomenon following out their inborn patterns of behaviors, happily, through training , we can lean our behaviors in new directions, I am not sure malaria can change within a lifetime.

ball is coming back to your side. Hey it is like a new app!  Dhamma pong! emoticon

off to work

Psi

RE: Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
4/28/15 1:54 PM as a reply to Psi.
Oh, no, I talking about myself, only, about the lofty bit. It's just that the mind can conceive ideals and then... well, as a friend told me: the moment she steps back to admire a plant in the garden she's also just stepped on one behind her.

Nice post, Psi-man. Thank you.

RE: Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
5/1/15 12:54 AM as a reply to Psi.
Hey Everyone,

Just wanted to make sure everyone knew I was not talking about Endgame Cessation of Dukkha, but was talking about a more practical right here right now cessation of Dukkha.  Not, that a complete and final cessation of dukkha would not be practical, haha.  But, I am more speaking about cessation of dukkha in a more normal sense of terms, and perhaps not in the higher mystical sense of the terms.

@ Pawel and Katy,  thanks for your replies, your thoughts run deep, and I appreciate your comments and wisdom.

These thoughts that are arising are reflected better and explained better in this link below, for anyone who is interested.  Basically , I have before always looked at Nibbana and Cessation of Dukkha as having to be 100 percent perfect and an all the time 24 hour phenomenon, now I am thinking I was wrong, and that it can be a partial phenomenon, which makes Nibbana much less mystical, more attainable, more of a reality, yet none the less beneficial for all.  But, I have to contemplate on this, Buddhadasa Bhikku is really hitting me hard with his Wisdom, it is shaking me up a little.  I think my mind was clinging more to the Buddha's teaching as something more mystical and super duper, when in fact it may just be alot simpler and straightforward than otherwise thought, though at the same time deeper than imagination.

Right now, I have to plead ignorance, I just do not know at this moment. emoticon  And I am not sure I have any more thinking left in me, it would be easier just to let it all go, all of it.  Blah!  That is how I feel, Blah!  But, even the ludicrousenss of it all makes me smile,  emoticon  Can even disgust bring joy?  How can that be?

 
NIBBANA FOR EVERYONE by
Buddhadasa Bhikkhu
(adapted and translated by Santikaro Bhikkhu)

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/arts/message/nibbevry.htm


Metta hugs and Metta fist bumps

Psi

RE: Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
5/1/15 6:53 AM as a reply to Psi.
Psi
Can even disgust bring joy? How can that be?


Sorry, internet posting is sometimes hard to get ideas across.  What happened was, that I felt disgust at the whole situation of life that we have to endure, the pain, the struggles, the impermanence.  But, realizing that is the way it is, law of nature, it made me laugh at the absurdity.  That was how joy arose from disgust, because it is such a ridiculous situation we are all born into.

I was also contemplating about your earlier post.
Best cessation of dukkha that I am aware of is experiencing its "this is better" reference point that is used to do comparison of current experience with it and create actual dukkha, wanting. In any moment there is dukkha there is also dukkha-free version of it somewhere as reference, going with it, experiencing it will make dukkha gone because it is already best version of reality that is rendered inside brain and there is nothing better to compare it with and have conclusion "I could still be better".

There you have it, it is cheap mind hacking and even though it is easy to do it is at the same time so hard because it is against ignorant assumptions that we have. They need to be seen through and there is like a lot of them so one have to see underneath the underneath until there is nothing left in mind.
So, it seems you are saying that dukkha is mind made, and also not  dukkha is mind made.  And, that once we cut through assumptions, to see things at the base, or core level, relieves dukkha, maybe only temporarily, but relieves it never the less.  Also, that assumptions are in layers, layers after layers, like the onion, take away one layer of assumptions, and then there is another layer, but when one finally removes the last layer of the onion they find there is nothing there, no core.  No assumptions, No problem.  Is that maybe what is called no-mind in Zen?


Psi

RE: Cessation of Dukkha
Answer
5/1/15 6:15 PM as a reply to Psi.
Hey Psi,

This is all how I see Buddhism and Nibbana as well.  Dukkha is impatience and nibbana is freedom from any urgency.