Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/26/15 5:40 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/26/15 5:55 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Bill F. 5/26/15 7:55 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/26/15 8:04 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Bill F. 5/27/15 3:35 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/28/15 3:22 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Psi 5/28/15 9:56 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Derek 5/28/15 10:27 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/29/15 12:13 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Derek 5/29/15 6:57 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/29/15 12:15 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Psi 5/26/15 8:51 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/26/15 9:18 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Psi 5/26/15 10:21 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Mark 5/27/15 2:06 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/27/15 7:28 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Mark 5/28/15 4:38 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 5/29/15 12:12 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/29/15 12:11 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 5/29/15 12:20 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/30/15 7:24 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 5/31/15 12:14 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Matt 5/31/15 6:48 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 5/31/15 9:28 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 6/8/15 11:07 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 6/8/15 11:31 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 6/8/15 9:08 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 6/9/15 2:02 AM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 6/9/15 6:59 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 6/9/15 10:45 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 6/9/15 10:51 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Noah 6/9/15 11:15 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 6/9/15 11:42 PM
RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma Ryan J 6/10/15 12:15 AM
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 5:40 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 5:40 PM

Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
I would like to start a thread to act as a space for people to brainstorm about how to make the Dho, and other pragmatic dharma communities, explicitly all-inclusive for various groups of people, including women, lgbt, all ages, etc.  

I have heard many people including the Dho's founder, past and present moderator's, and other important contributors debating and discussing this issue in depth.  This is simply a space for the continuation of this dialogue with the idea that it is possible to actually make changes that will permanently improve the way that hardcore/developmental dharma attracts and retains a diverse range of individuals representing many groups.

This is obviously impossibly complex, involving many sub-groups of the population and cross-identifications that people might have (identifying or not-identifying with multiple groups) and also can not be separated from various other contexts (spiritual communities outside of pragmatic dharma, society outside of spiritual communities, etc).  

That is why I would suggest this be a space to brainstorm and play with ideas in a fearless manner without trying to make them sound perfect or be of the highest quality.  Anything goes, within the context of fully-intended kindness but also the goal of radical change.

Finally, this should not, in any way, become a venue for blaming the leaders and facilitators of our community, or transferring responsibility away from ourselves (individual participants without leadership roles).  My personal assumption is that the Dho is an incredible success (as are the other, various pockets of pragmatic dharma on the net and elsewhere), lasting for many years and bringing many people to all kinds of deliverance from suffering.  Attempting to make improvements does not in any way shine a negative light on past history.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 5:55 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 5:55 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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My initial thoughts:

Advance warning: I don't know how to make comments about this without generalizations.  Meaning, I would venture to use the terms 'feminine' and 'masculine' in reference to generally, culturally-agreed upon gender associations (obviously independent from sex).  Everyone has both energies within them and even more energies that aren't easily classified by gender or other identifications.  I mean energy in the loose sense that can translate to personality trait, thought/emotional/behavior patterns, psycho-somatic sensations and images, etc.  

If anyone is offended by my use of these terms, please suggest alternative terms and ways of thinking that can help us probblem solve in the spirit of the thread.

That being said: there seem to themes or qualities of developmental dharma that possess a certain yang or masculine energy.  These include its technical and analytical nature as well as the goal-orientation.  Examples of yin or feminine qualities might be surrender, open-heartedness, faith, devotion, etc.  When yin or feminine qualities are discussed, they are sometimes only discussed in the context of goal-orientation.  Meaning, surrender or faith is a tool during a certain part of the path but is not the ultimate goal.  In these cases, the yin is instrumental for the yang.  Perhaps it should be the other way around?  

Another idea: add in forum categories or sub-categories to somehow be more inclusive: 'women and meditation', 'lgbt and meditation', 'raising kids and meditation' (or a general householding and practice category).  

Also, as forum participants, we can ask members of various groups to flesh out their viewpoints when they initially post in discussions.  We can engage these matters directly and act as assistant moderators.
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Bill F, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 7:55 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 7:55 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 556 Join Date: 11/17/13 Recent Posts
Cool stuff, Noah. Do your thing.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 8:04 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 8:04 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Thanks Bill!  Any ideas yourself?  You've been involved a lot longer than I have.  Always good to hear your thoughts.
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 8:51 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 8:50 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Noah S:
I would like to start a thread to act as a space for people to brainstorm about how to make the Dho, and other pragmatic dharma communities, explicitly all-inclusive for various groups of people, including women, lgbt, all ages, etc.  
Hi Noah, 

Here is my take on this.  There is mind.  Then there is the mind and its proliferations, classifications and divisions of peoples and things.  All the talk about who is what and why people are this or that is, really just delusionary talk.  There is just mind, the common denominator for various groups of people is the mind.  When that is seen and known, then one knows there really are no various groups of people, except existing as delusion.  It is this root delusion that casues and stirs up divisions and classifications of people.  Without the delusion , there is no reason to make anything all-inclusive, because it already would be so.  But to hope humanity can cut through this delusion is probably just another clinging fantasy, for there is dukkha.

So, for the sake of brainstorming, the solution as I see it, is to clear out the root of the delusion, then problem solved.  But, obviously that is not so easy, humanity loves to cling to the idea of classifications of people and the all the conceit and pride that goes along with these ideas.

It is all just mental formations.

It is all just craving and clinging with different labels.  I say the more craving and clinging is abandoned, the better off one will be.

I guess that probably does not help much, it seems it seldom does, but there it is anyway.

Psi
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 9:18 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 9:18 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Thanks Psi, it definitely does help.  I think you are speaking on the sort of fundamental/ultimate level here.  But what about the more relativistic/conventional levels in which we live our daily lives and experience as time and space as we communicate here on our computers?  I would be interested to hear some more of your thoughts, as relating to this issue, on these levels.  You said some really amazing things on the eating animals thread that contained a lot more content than just pointers to the ultimate freedom.

I think it can be sort of uncomfortable to discuss this stuff (I am not suggesting that you personally feel this, just pointint it out in general), and it could be easy for others to dismiss the issue by moving immediately from the relative to the ultimate (a sort of spiritual bypassing).
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 10:21 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/26/15 10:19 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Noah S:
Thanks Psi, it definitely does help.  I think you are speaking on the sort of fundamental/ultimate level here.  But what about the more relativistic/conventional levels in which we live our daily lives and experience as time and space as we communicate here on our computers?  I would be interested to hear some more of your thoughts, as relating to this issue, on these levels.  You said some really amazing things on the eating animals thread that contained a lot more content than just pointers to the ultimate freedom.

I think it can be sort of uncomfortable to discuss this stuff (I am not suggesting that you personally feel this, just pointint it out in general), and it could be easy for others to dismiss the issue by moving immediately from the relative to the ultimate (a sort of spiritual bypassing).
Hey Noah, 

Pretty wise there, yeah Universal view versus Conventional view.  Spiritual Bypassing, Nah, that sounds like a make believe term.

But really, even with sexual orientation and classification, I look at it as an anthropologist would, read A Naked Ape, by Desmond Morris?  Really, humans are just bumping, grinding, licking, massaging their own and each others nerve endings producing pleasant sensations.  Slaves to the sense glands, and we must appease them!!!  Then whatever  generates pleasurable sensations we associate with neurons and form thought formations around this phenomenon.

But, really that is all the sex thing is, same with the other classifications.  Age, skin colors, tattoos, cultures, height, weight, views, they are all sense phenomenon, and when noticed as such, and left at the sense phenomenon level, none of the classification of humans and their habits arises. But, it seems we can only cure one mind of delusion, and that is our own.

But, yes on the conventional level, it is a problem, views conflicting and clashing, cultures rage against each other, people want to support their rights and freedoms.  

So, yes, differences in views is a problem, is dukkha, but no views no problem.  But, that takes continuous training, to be aware and recognize each and every thought as a sensation, a mental sensation, no different , and mental sensations have no  more importance than the wind sensation that blows across our cheeks, or the importance of the rising and falling of the abdomen.

Okay, I looked up Spiritual Bypassing. Vipassana, in its true definition is Not Spiritual Bypassing.  Buddhism is not Spiritual Bypassing.  I would say praying and hoping and wishing is Spiritual Bypassing.  Vipassana cuts right into the delusions of painful feelings , unresolved wounds, and developmental needs.  Insight is the cure for Spiritual Bypassing, from my view.

It seems I am straying off topic a little, but these points should be made in order to clarify my current view.  So to sum up painful feelings, unresolved wounds, and developmental needs all fall under the category of  phenomenon, mental formations, physical formations, and sensations.  And as it all comes under this category they can all be viewed as such, noticed and watched as they arise and pass away or , more directly , brought intentionally to cessation.  Note, the cessation of, not the supression of, or the shunting off of, or the ignoring of, or the bypassing of.

So, one approach is to look at all of this stuff as garbage.  

Then one can either play around with the garbage identifying this piece or that piece of garbage, set a piece of garbage aside for later examination, talk about it, etc.  This would be like Old School Psychology.

 Or, just dump the trash. It is all stories, all nonsense, all trash. This would be like Insight.

But, also I do not want to belittle beliefs and peoples ideas of classifying people and such, and would welcome any human to discuss Dharma.  I know people hold their ideas and beliefs dear and close to their hearts, and have causes and efforts to support and uphold.  It is out of compassion for others and their well being that we feel the need at times to rise up and defend people and ideas.   

But, back to the topic of the post, It looks to me as if Pragmatic Dharma is all inclusive.  It is the divisions and classifications that make things not inclusive.  Like a pie, one pie, cut eight pieces, there are eight pieces, but still one pie.

Pie
Mark, modified 8 Years ago at 5/27/15 2:06 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/27/15 2:06 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 550 Join Date: 7/24/14 Recent Posts
This podcast on "Creating Diverse Sanghas" should be helpful : http://secularbuddhism.org/2015/04/26/episode-222-mushim-ikeda-and-brenda-salgado-creating-diverse-sanghas/ 
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/27/15 7:28 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/27/15 7:28 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Thanks Mark, could you summarize some of the points you found within?  What you found helpful and what you think might not be helpful in our case?

Cheers
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Bill F, modified 8 Years ago at 5/27/15 3:35 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/27/15 3:35 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Thanks Bill!  Any ideas yourself?  You've been involved a lot longer than I have.  Always good to hear your thoughts.

Not really. You and Ryan are better at this than me. One idea I liked (and am stealing from Vince Horn) was the idea of groups where people would lead meditations and discussions. It might be nice if Dho had something like that. I imagine the community might benefit if people coud see each other's faces. It would also satisfy my curiosity;)
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 3:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 3:22 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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@Bill: I love this idea.  Maybe we should plan some Dho google hangouts, ala AN.  There is probably a reason why these don't exist and people have probably tried in the past, but I'm sure persistance would gain traction.

@Psi: I think what you're saying is true: dharma in its purest sense (the objective observation of reality) is all-inclusive.  But just like all groups, activities, hobbies and organizations who believe what they are doing is positive, fun, joyful, transformative, whatever... the question remains of how to actually get people in the mix to the point where they can get a taste of this hardcore dharma teaching.  I assume we all believe that transformation-positive dharma is a good thing and an important complement to mushy-mindfulness.  The more we can make this stuff accessible from the outer layers, the more chances people will have to get involved.

___________________

So I listened to some of Mark's secular buddhism link.  I do plan to finish the talk.  So far the ways they have discussed creating inclusive sanghas involves practicing earth-based traditions and practicing with volunteer work within and without a zen-temple environment.  I also started listening to this talk: http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2015/02/bg-351-building-inclusive-community/ , which is Emily Horn interviewing JoAnna Harper about the same subject.  Its interesting that they are exploring how the Buddha did this (or did not do it).
____________________
I think for me the idea is to keep it hardcore, radical, purist, etc. but to believe that lots of people can handle this and will practice even if the approach is a little less mushy and sensitive than the one they are used to.  Just assume people can be tough and participate in a community that doesn't have filters.  So, I would not suggest that we add on more filters, but rather some type of invitation or recruitment for more commentary, more opinion-voicing from a diverse range of folks.

.....

It is also possible that all of what I am saying is already happening.  Perhaps I should let the thread die? 
Mark, modified 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 4:38 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 4:38 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Hi Noah,

I could make an attempt but in the interest of being more inclusive I think you'd be better served listening to the podcast. The two woman being interviewed have their own voice and I doubt I'd do them justice.

For me one point that stood out is comparing a sort of passive inclusiveness which is widespread and a more active approach where people in the communities not being engaged are sought out and their issues become a priority.

Are you aware of an online forum that is all-inclusive ?  
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Psi, modified 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 9:56 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 9:56 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Noah S:


@Psi: I think what you're saying is true: dharma in its purest sense (the objective observation of reality) is all-inclusive.  But just like all groups, activities, hobbies and organizations who believe what they are doing is positive, fun, joyful, transformative, whatever... the question remains of how to actually get people in the mix to the point where they can get a taste of this hardcore dharma teaching.  I assume we all believe that transformation-positive dharma is a good thing and an important complement to mushy-mindfulness.  The more we can make this stuff accessible from the outer layers, the more chances people will have to get involved.
Hi Noah,

Yeah boy, I dunno how to get people involved.  It always amazes me , the actual numbers.  Pragmatic Dharma Practice that is so transformative, and positive, and yet out of 7 plus billion people on the planet, less than 70 or so regular post viewers.  And DHO is a "hot" discussion board.  Some boards only have posts every week or less.

This trend can be seen on youtube views also, there will be videos on jhanas or somthing Dharma related that I find utterly fascinating and vital to mental training, and may have even been a live youtube post for a decade or more, yet less than a thousand views.  But, look at the views for a cat eating blueberries on a kitchen counter, or some such nonsense, and it will have millions of views.

Plus, There is alot of skepticism and doubt out there, about anything one has not experienced, it is our nature.

It could also be that in Buddhist countries, and this is speculation, for I do not know first hand, but it could also be that, most Buddhist are merely going through the Mundane motions, ritualistically bowing and lighting candles or whatever, and not really training their minds, and this adds to the confusion about what is Path and not Path.

And even within the small circle of Yogis, it is hard for most to maintain a daily practice of any consequence.

All this, couple with the fact that Pragmatic Dharma is in competition with Modern forms of advertisement, subliminals, propaganda, talk shows, radio, internet info slop, video games, movies, music, fashions, cars, drugs, etc, etc,

Plus, one has to be aware that Pragmatic Dharma training, in its entirety ,by this I mean all Eight parts of the Path, is like swimming upstream, against and counter opposed to the basic instincts that have evolved for millions and millions of years,  Now, there may be disagreement with that, there is the idea that one should go with the flow and all that, but just going along with the flow does not really cut the mustard , in my current view.

So, again, I dunno, more chances for people to get involved, I certainly see where your heart is, the compassion to help others, and that is awesome.  But, humanity lives and breathes delusion, humanity is literally asleep, basically humanity is moving through time on instinctual autopilot.  But, the language center of the brain makes up such fascinating stories about our surroundings and actions in life, we fall for it every single time.  Without Insight, that is.

But, keep brainstorming, there may be a way.

Humans are like water drops, and together we make a giant river, heading towards a cliff  It would take great effort to reverse the course of the river, each drop will have to awaken at least to some degree to reverse the course of the river.  And it is just so easy to float along with humanity , so deceptively sweet, just following orders from the senses, letting the senses be in charge, it is so easy... Go to sleep, go to sleep,  Hmmm, hmmm , hmmm, hmmm , hmmm...


Yet here we are, waking up. emoticon This all really, really reminds me of the movie, The Matrix.  Noting our way loose from the Sense Cables that attach us to the giant Craving Machinery that sucks our Life Force.

Your a good guy Noah.  Good discussion.  
Psi

 
Derek, modified 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 10:27 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 10:27 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Noah, Bill, Mark, Psi:

You're all making good points here.

One of the myths about the Internet is that a message board is a community. But when you look at the statistics, you learn that only about 2% of people contribute. The other 98% are passive spectators. So a message board is more like a volunteer-produced television station than a real community. And as in any volunteer group, what happens depends on who shows up to do something. The only time you'll ever hear from the 98% is when they want to complain that the voluntary work of the 2% isn't up to their high standards.

In the World Community for Christian Meditation, we have ten online meditation groups that meet on a scheduled basis. If you look at the list, you'll see that one problem is that, no matter what time you choose, it will only suit a limited number of individuals. But also, those ten online groups are drawn from a population of 1,600 physical meditation groups, which meet in the real world. It takes a huge number of people to get even a small group together for online meditation.
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:12 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/28/15 11:58 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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My first thought upon reading this was don't. For reasons basically described here: https://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/19/inclusion-exclusion-unity-and-diversity/

Tldr: Perfect inclusivity is impossible. Attempts to enforce it result in totalitarianism.

I honestly don't think there is a way around conflict between say, someone like me who cares about awakening and not about the original true teaching is Gotoma and those who do. There is a natural tension and it isn't ever going away. 

I have some really fucked up theories in my mind about the DhO and Pragmatic Dharma 99% of which won't get posted because then I have to reply, and that takes time. I remember reading on awakeningnetwork someone was surprised that the ruthless truthers attracted a large number of the pick up artist crowd and my immediate thought was, "Fuck, you guys don't know anything." For the record, I'm not into PUA, but I know enough about it that I wouldn't be surprised if many of them lurk MCTB and why they do, etc. I'm alluding to the notion that pragmatic dharma is really about 9-14 different subgroups of which have yet to take form, and I think on some level Jenny knows 2-3 of these subgroups are never going to be approached by the very discourse of this site. In fact, that's why the old elite left, to expand the demographics of awakening, ie vincent Horn, because this place is too small for something so big.

You made a thread like this before and Daniel said he liked it and then nothing happened whatsoever, so I myself feel no inclination to add what I have already stated.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:11 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:11 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Hi Ryan,

First off, I feel that the previous thread on Dho improvements wasn't a waste of time as it was an exercise in useful brainstorming for me, which is part of my practice.  Also, I saw a drop in stupid arguments afterwards.

Secondly, I would say that your tone in this response, although extremely subtle, is somewhat hostile and bitter.  I would guess that you felt annoyed when the previous thread potential solutions didn't pan out in a major way.  In most posts I've read of yours you have always said very wise things, so I also make my judgement in the context of such comparisons.

Also, the David Chapman article you posted DOES suggest ways to help Buddhism reach a larger audience.  One such strategy is to form all the sub-sects into one unified counterforce against the mainstream.  In the end, the effect would be the same as the goal that I am proposing: reach a diverse range of people with enlightenment-forward info.

Hope you change your mind and choose to participate,
Noah
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:13 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:13 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Derek Cameron:
Noah, Bill, Mark, Psi:

You're all making good points here.

One of the myths about the Internet is that a message board is a community. But when you look at the statistics, you learn that only about 2% of people contribute. The other 98% are passive spectators. So a message board is more like a volunteer-produced television station than a real community. And as in any volunteer group, what happens depends on who shows up to do something. The only time you'll ever hear from the 98% is when they want to complain that the voluntary work of the 2% isn't up to their high standards.

In the World Community for Christian Meditation, we have ten online meditation groups that meet on a scheduled basis. If you look at the list, you'll see that one problem is that, no matter what time you choose, it will only suit a limited number of individuals. But also, those ten online groups are drawn from a population of 1,600 physical meditation groups, which meet in the real world. It takes a huge number of people to get even a small group together for online meditation.


Hi Derek, 
The numbers don't lie, so I have to agree that a forum is not a community.  It is more choatic and dispersed.  But I would say that even that type of arrangement can be worked with: perhaps with even more fluidity?  The WCCM (shortened out of laziness) is a cool example.  How many years have the online meetings been going on for?  It sounds like a success.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:15 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:15 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Psi:
Noah S:


@Psi: I think what you're saying is true: dharma in its purest sense (the objective observation of reality) is all-inclusive.  But just like all groups, activities, hobbies and organizations who believe what they are doing is positive, fun, joyful, transformative, whatever... the question remains of how to actually get people in the mix to the point where they can get a taste of this hardcore dharma teaching.  I assume we all believe that transformation-positive dharma is a good thing and an important complement to mushy-mindfulness.  The more we can make this stuff accessible from the outer layers, the more chances people will have to get involved.
Hi Noah,

Yeah boy, I dunno how to get people involved.  It always amazes me , the actual numbers.  Pragmatic Dharma Practice that is so transformative, and positive, and yet out of 7 plus billion people on the planet, less than 70 or so regular post viewers.  And DHO is a "hot" discussion board.  Some boards only have posts every week or less.

This trend can be seen on youtube views also, there will be videos on jhanas or somthing Dharma related that I find utterly fascinating and vital to mental training, and may have even been a live youtube post for a decade or more, yet less than a thousand views.  But, look at the views for a cat eating blueberries on a kitchen counter, or some such nonsense, and it will have millions of views.

Plus, There is alot of skepticism and doubt out there, about anything one has not experienced, it is our nature.

It could also be that in Buddhist countries, and this is speculation, for I do not know first hand, but it could also be that, most Buddhist are merely going through the Mundane motions, ritualistically bowing and lighting candles or whatever, and not really training their minds, and this adds to the confusion about what is Path and not Path.

And even within the small circle of Yogis, it is hard for most to maintain a daily practice of any consequence.

All this, couple with the fact that Pragmatic Dharma is in competition with Modern forms of advertisement, subliminals, propaganda, talk shows, radio, internet info slop, video games, movies, music, fashions, cars, drugs, etc, etc,

Plus, one has to be aware that Pragmatic Dharma training, in its entirety ,by this I mean all Eight parts of the Path, is like swimming upstream, against and counter opposed to the basic instincts that have evolved for millions and millions of years,  Now, there may be disagreement with that, there is the idea that one should go with the flow and all that, but just going along with the flow does not really cut the mustard , in my current view.

So, again, I dunno, more chances for people to get involved, I certainly see where your heart is, the compassion to help others, and that is awesome.  But, humanity lives and breathes delusion, humanity is literally asleep, basically humanity is moving through time on instinctual autopilot.  But, the language center of the brain makes up such fascinating stories about our surroundings and actions in life, we fall for it every single time.  Without Insight, that is.

But, keep brainstorming, there may be a way.

Humans are like water drops, and together we make a giant river, heading towards a cliff  It would take great effort to reverse the course of the river, each drop will have to awaken at least to some degree to reverse the course of the river.  And it is just so easy to float along with humanity , so deceptively sweet, just following orders from the senses, letting the senses be in charge, it is so easy... Go to sleep, go to sleep,  Hmmm, hmmm , hmmm, hmmm , hmmm...


Yet here we are, waking up. emoticon This all really, really reminds me of the movie, The Matrix.  Noting our way loose from the Sense Cables that attach us to the giant Craving Machinery that sucks our Life Force.

Your a good guy Noah.  Good discussion.  
Psi

 
Love these thoughts as a whole.  I just like hearing people's varying viewpoints and philosophizing, even if we can't suggest an particular solutions. Thanks!
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:20 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 12:20 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 121 Join Date: 2/19/14 Recent Posts
I guess what I am saying is that I am weary of trying to enforce inclusivity because by it's very nature demands exclusivity. The cartoonified Social Justice Warrior encapsulates this perfectly.  I always understood Chapman as rallying for many conflicting Buddhisms, I skimmed it enough to perhaps missed that point.

So to reiterate: I feel that partitioning the forum somewhat will make this place less hostile and managable in terms of complexity in that it requires no upkeep. That this would be a realistic solution to decreasing the 'meanness' of the forum. 
Derek, modified 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 6:57 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/29/15 6:57 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 326 Join Date: 7/21/10 Recent Posts
Noah S:

The WCCM (shortened out of laziness)

No problem -- WCCM is what we call ourselves! emoticon

Noah S:

How many years have the online meetings been going on for?  

Not very long -- just over a year, I'd say. I've never been able to make one of the online meditation sessions since, like many people, my getting-up-in-the-morning routine is pretty tightly scheduled, and the timezones meant the time was never quite right.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/30/15 7:24 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/30/15 7:24 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Ryan Kenneth Johnson:
I guess what I am saying is that I am weary of trying to enforce inclusivity because by it's very nature demands exclusivity. The cartoonified Social Justice Warrior encapsulates this perfectly.  I always understood Chapman as rallying for many conflicting Buddhisms, I skimmed it enough to perhaps missed that point.

So to reiterate: I feel that partitioning the forum somewhat will make this place less hostile and managable in terms of complexity in that it requires no upkeep. That this would be a realistic solution to decreasing the 'meanness' of the forum. 


I personally don't want to 'solve' the problem, persay.  I want people to always suggest specific solutions when they have a debate, rather than bandying platitudes or quoting endless sources.  So, if they are talking about eating animals, just suggest the best diet possible, do it, and then be done talking about it.  If they are saying the Dho is sexist, start brainstorming specific solutions.  If they are debating what true 'jhana' is, just share their personal experience, get some new information to improve their efforts, try the new technique, share their new experience, and call it a day.  Its the continuous discussing, debating, blah, blah, blah, that annoys me.  Thats why I dump all my conceptual garbage into my own practice log for obsessing.  Its basically my trash bin.  

I think the process of refusing to pontificate and stick to hard evidence from one's personal experience is inherently powerful and reaps its own results.  Meaning, you don't have to find the exact right way to "force inclusivity", just communicate about specific solutions and it might start to happen a little bit.
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 5/31/15 12:14 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/31/15 12:10 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 121 Join Date: 2/19/14 Recent Posts
I agree, I tend to journal various thoughts to keep them from spilling over here. My response was triggered by reading the words all inclusivity after learning and seeing a lot of social justice warrior extremism and seeing how hyper-viscious it has become. Not to say attempts to be more polite and aware of differences of gender and so on shouldn't be done, in fact, because I believe such things are sensible I want to point out what doesn't work. I want to avoid the examples of a sort of super virulent form of hyper-political correctness that is emotionally viscious and does exist and therefore worth mentioning as an avenue of what we shouldn't do. Such viciousness does more to destroy the PR of people who want respect for various gender identities in the broader culture than just about anything else. No one here is suggesting this, but I feel merely putting this out there is a first line of defense from emotional violence in the name of equality.

Engineers study both what does and does not work in order to improve their designs, and so that's why I mention this. How I currently approach this topic is more trying to understand the problem, rather than offering solutions, on the grounds I feel a proper narrative or conceptual framing of the DhO is 80% of solving the problems of the DhO, and therefore I almost am hesitant to participate.

Here is what I mean: 

At first I had some vague notion that the DhO is an online community. But now I think a more appropriate narrative would be an intelligent database. Basically, if you saw Star Wars episodes 1, 2, and 3, they show the Jedi library temple. The Jedi library temple is where people go to read and learn about various Jedi things. It's a sacred place attended by various Jedi. But this Jedi library doesn't do the job of the Jedi council, it doesn't do the job of training the younglings, which is a stupid choice of a word from a phone-aesthetic point of view. It doesn't have the meditation center, it doesn't have the caves where Jedi go on some sort of spiritual-warrior quest to forge their own light saber in some sort of sacred spiritual-warrior rite of passage.

Thus, I think we ask the DhO more than it should be asked on the grounds we have no reasonable alternatives. I'm fortunate to have plenty of good meditation centers with I'm quite sure very awakened teachers who really have their shit together with outstanding maturity all around, I'm pretty sure that's very, very, very rare. And yet, I feel like I just don't belong there. Like, it's for a particular group of baby boomers, and certain Gen X and Gen Y that abide to this culture. 

I see Pragmatic Dharma as a multi-group movement that expands the current demographics of awakening beyond hippies, hence the apt term Buddhist Geeks. I joke to myself I'm an Awakening Nerd, which I think points to the notion that Pragmatic Dharma has yet to expand to it's potential demographics. As this happens over years and decades, I think that these groups will need places to go, physically, not just via the internet. And yet there are a total of 0 such places where I live. The only community that pragmatic dharma has is Buddhist Geeks and that mostly exists online as well. The reason I say all this is that I feel this big picture perspective can shed some light on the here and now of this forum.
Matt, modified 8 Years ago at 5/31/15 6:48 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/31/15 6:46 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Noah S:
I would like to start a thread to act as a space for people to brainstorm about how to make the Dho, and other pragmatic dharma communities, explicitly all-inclusive for various groups of people, including women, lgbt, all ages, etc.  

Sorry, only have a minute to throw in my thoughts about this topic sentence.

I wish Dho was designed to allow people that think each other are dickheads to hang out with their respective non-dickheads without butting heads too much.  This is what discrete forums are all about: narrow your exposure to that which you want to be exposed to.  It's simple how to do this, IMHO: add a feature that's like 'recent posts', but only recent posts from the forums you want to hear from.  This would allow me to come and conveniently see updates from just the groups I'm interested in associating with.

That change, along with moderators that help remind people where they belong would go a long way.

Oh, and if everybody saw this forum as a place to practice how to coexist with others, then we'd all be a lot better off.

Sorry if this is out of place given all the other discussion...

Good practice to you all!
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 5/31/15 9:28 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 5/31/15 9:28 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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@Ryan: Loved the ideas in the post.  Still re-reading them.  THAT is why I think threads like this are valuable, even if they don't fix the issue.

@Matthew: Found the idea below really interesting.  Thats a neat, explicit goal, and a type of practice.  How to communicate.  I think thats what Kenneth was suggesting with the idea of intellectual honesty, and also what is happening when people have source wars or quote different sutras.  In essence, I think this is one big experiment using different possible modes of communication in coexisting.

Oh, and if everybody saw this forum as a place to practice how to coexist with others, then we'd all be a lot better off.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 11:07 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 11:07 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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The post below might be TLTR.  If so, just refer to the underlined paragraph headings which summarize my points.

So, I've been reading a lot of old threads, from 2009 and earlier, many via the old, wetpaint platform.  I would like to reflect on them here, with varying thoughts of my own and not one central argument or opinion:

In general, I would posit that arguing, fighting, focusing on semantics and technical distinctions, and other types of "tense" communication do not help promote greater inclusivity and a more inviting environment.  That is why I have decided to share these thoughts here.

-Certainty is a problem.  People need to learn to be uncertain.  They need to learn to hold all opinions lightly, including their own.  If this is learned, then giving up an arguement before it starts will be no problem, and admitting one is wrong in the midst of an arguement will also be possible.  When arguements stop, personal experience can be shared.  When others reflect on the synthesis of personal experiences, new stuff is learned.  Agreeing to disagree is very, very important. 

-Focus On Words is a problem.  Many people need to relax about word choice, meaning, sentence structure, etc.  People wage war based on definitions which are always changing.  In my own practice, my personal definitions of words are always changing.  Who cares?  We should understand that we are doing our best and allow the ambiguity of the possibility that we will not agree on certain definitions.  The minute a back-and-forth about the definition of words ibegins to evolve, the participants should question whether or not this will be helpful for others, or just satisfying for their own desires.  

I am not criticizing scholastic inquiry that includes suttric quoting and the synthesizing of various concepts.  Most people who make these kinds of posts are not attacking others anyway.

-Creating a Heirarchy of Post-4th Path Stages is a problem.  AF exists.  Whether or not it is a static attainment whose non-somatic-charge-effects never-ever dissapear is still up for debate.  But the fact that it exists as something that can be helpful and is discrete from the method and results of Vipassana is not debatable.  We should learn to agree to disagree on everything past this point.  The reason it is threatening to people is that it has been defined as something greater than 4th Path.  Why not just drop that distinction?  There are other options past 4th Path, i.e. advanced Tantrayana, magick/loa/life-integration, etc.  Agreeing to disagree will stop arguements before they begin and create more space for people to explore different paths.

-------------

In the "Roots of Mushroom Culture" thread, Daniel shared a potentially interesting thought that conversation on the DhO's sister board may involve a lot of caution and over-politeness that has been learned through past times of constant conflict.  This isn't good, or bad, just an interesting point of reference.  I believe a balance is possible (between all-out-war and completely-refusing-to-disagree) if people can learn to quit arguements before or early on and if they can tolerate the ambiguity of differing ideas and semantics.

The more clear communication that goes on, the more likely it will be that the message board becomes highly inviting for all sorts of practicioners from different traditions and at different stages.  It is already happening successfully, I'm just brainstorming about how to make it even better.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 11:31 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 11:31 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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When going into a thread with a completely certain opinion on the subject, one question to ask is: Am I willing to admit that I might be wrong and even potentially learn something totally different from this thread?

What truths, when learned about practice, would be completely, personally, devastating for you?

For me, realizing that I couldn't treat my bipolar disorder with insight (although this isn't true so far) would really, really suck. 
For others in the past, I suspect it has been that there are measurable stages beyond 4th Path, or that after they had attained what they called 'Actual Freedom', there were still triggers and upsetting situations in life that set them off.  

As Matthew said, if we can learn to treat this place as a training ground for skillful co-existence, it will be a ton more inviting, inclusive, however-you-wanna-say-it.

I would like to hear what others think....???
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 9:08 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/8/15 8:19 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 121 Join Date: 2/19/14 Recent Posts
At the root of all the drama here is tribalism. Us vs them mentality probably etched into us via evolution. If I think the Buddha was the end all be all authority on awakening, then read someone who thinks differently than this will trigger my sense of different tribal affiliation, as we disagree. If I'm a skeptic and see posts about people working with magic, it will trigger tribal affiliations. It brings up a natural tension that can be meditated upon. There are two options:

1) Meditate with emotional triggers, browsing Dharma Overground as a practice ground
2) Avoid triggers and responding to triggering posts because they're a waste of time

Shinzen Young talks about people who do retreats, have insights and deep forays into meditation, then lose it after going back into the real world because they didn't do #1, as if their neural pathways just are built for mindfulness of retreat reclusion, not mindfulness of daily life.

I propose the middle option, which is realizing this place prepares me for pretty much the same office politics I have found to exist 100% everywhere else. Secondly, restraint from posting in certain topics because to do so would probably be a waste of time in that my post would really be continuing a gargantuan trainwreck of emotional reactive posts.

So, I think it's a little bit of both. And because it's both, developing a checklist of when to and when not to is a lot of complexity best avoided by using common sense. Shinzen makes it pretty clear that you want to face intense triggers over time to build a strong practice. Considering the many thousand of students Shinzen has taught over decades, this is likely a good sample size to reasonably assert that the best strategy is build a strong practice by facing strong winds.

But back to your original post. Having knowledge and awareness of expanded gender identities is a good thing. The other day I could just sense how much assumptions of how various genders are supposed to act was limiting me. And yet, as I mentioned earlier, much of the push for this is done in a very vicious way, forever tainting in the general public mind a negative connotation of these terminologies. When a dad takes a selfie for his kids and some paranoid mom thinks he is a pedophile because she think he took pictures of her kids (but he didn't) so she photographs him and then puts it on Facebook where 20,000 shares of how this creepy pedophile man needs to be put to justice, that's not an insignificant number to ignore. That actually happened: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3073095/Mother-mistakenly-shames-dad-thought-taking-photos-kids Facebook-post-shared-hundreds-actually-taking-selfie-Star-Wars-display-children.html 

Here are more examples of what I mean by viscousness:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nn86rn-lwR4
Gender activist on the joke of #killallmen

http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/hot-allostatic-load/
Trans-feminist experience of feminist scenes

http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2014/11/why-i-am-not-feminist.html
Jayarava talking about why he doesn't consider himself a feminist after his women friends argue about how all men are rapists, etc.

For reiterate for clarity: we should be knowledgable and mindful of gender and so on, but viciousness just isn't the way to go. Do it the Ghandi way.

Completely switching gears, I want to point out that when I browsed BuddhistGeeks community, I noticed most all the people visiting BG don't post on the DhO. Here is a very similar valued online community that were born out of the same people, and yet there is so little crossover? The point I'm getting at is I believe the very nature of discourse has overwhelming power to self-select demographics, creating a hard to guess how large survivorship bias. Survivorship bias meaning, you only see the people who survived, but not the much larger amount of people who just aren't clicking. So if someone is very interested in awakening, but driven away by the discourse, you won't know they exist because they won't post in the first place. They won't contact Daniel or whoever, because they instinctively react, 'Nope, not for me.'

So my conclusion is: we can be more inclusive, we should be more inclusive, we should respect gender identities, do it politely, and also admit we could never meet the demands of being all inclusive. Or, let's do a reasonable job of being sensible people who care about each other and also admit we are human and cannot be perfect.
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 2:02 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 1:55 AM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 121 Join Date: 2/19/14 Recent Posts
To expand on what I mean by discourse/exclusivity, which don't take me too seriously as I'm wading into new territory here.

So I think, if you have a discourse that says (or implicitly implies) discourse doesn't matter, only bare attention to sensate reality, you will tend to compartmentalize away discourse. Which may be good since many (96%?) problems simply aren't problems, but then there is the conventional world to work in, so discourse comes back into the picture as something that must be worked with. I get it that this focus on sensate reality is in service of awakening, but I think this is a shadow side to this discourse.

Then this discourse further selects for people who will run with it and repels those who don't like it for a million possible reasons and then one has a community wherein it the people who like or tolerate the discourse discuss within the assumptions of discourse: Mahasi maps. It creates the impression it works because it works for everyone there. It does work, and works for you. But if it doesn't work for random person Joe, we don't know. The point being is that the very discourse is exclusive, but exclusivity is an invisible pool shadowed by survivorship bias, of which I'm not sure we can say much about except guesses. I think the fact so many people at BG knew about the DhO and seemed to wanted to avoid this place as possible evidence of this. I'm not saying exclusivity is bad or maps are bad, I'm saying all-inclusivity isn't a feasible solution, hence my hastily written posts about, 'let a bunch of different paths bloom.' 

For example, Alan Chapman would object to the very structure of the DhO, with compartmentalization and so on. You cannot participate without being complicit with the continuation of the master threads of discourse. You can slightly rebel by being your own person, but this is 1) Hard 2) Limited in effect as in you still effectively negotiate via the master discourse. Including the fact we are social animals who are constantly signaling tribal affiliations, this compounds the issue further. Again, I'm not saying the discourse of the DhO is bad, I'm trying to grasp the dynamics of discourse as a demographic filtering mechanism and tribal marker that can cause tribal showdowns between mutually conflicting discourses, ie, magic vs skepticism.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 6:59 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 6:59 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Thank you, Ryan.  I'm learning as I read and re-read the above posts.  I think you're right, there is only so much we can do, and should try to do.

There is something about the tenor or quality of the entire Buddhist Geeks "program" that is less extreme and more mellow/inviting.  I think thats also what Ron Crouch is trying to do by calling his website "Aloha Dharma" and what Shinzen is trying to do by creating a noting protocol that covers all possible permutations of human perception (including "flow" and "rest", etc.).  

There is no one answer, or right way to do it.  Its important to have lots of online resources for pragmatic contemplative practice.  

I guess I would try to phrase a question to keep this thread going:  To what degree do these varying websites, teachers, programs, that could be placed under the "pragmatic" banner, actually form a community?
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 10:45 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 10:45 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Inclusion: Diversity is encouraged. If you are interested in the topics we emphasize here and in maintaining a culture conducive to supporting deep and open discussions of these things, then you are welcome here. Specifically, LGBTQIASetc., POC, white, women, men, trans, cis, other, etc. are welcome here. Please help maintain a culture of conversation that supports the deep practice of all people. May the teachings and practice of wisdom be open and available to all who seek them.

Thank you, Daniel.  This is awesome.
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 10:51 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 10:49 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 121 Join Date: 2/19/14 Recent Posts
I really haven't thought about what makes a community, more that an internet forum isn't a good medium for a community (Rather it is a medium to exchange ideas) because it lacks a lot of features full fledged churches offer, hence my analogy to the Jedi library temple.

The Economist uses the Big Mac Index to measure the purchasing power parity between two countries, a sort of non-obvious informal measurement that ends up saying a lot because it's so integrated into the trenches of everyday life. I think for communities there is something similar, I'd like to call it the Dating Index. The Dating Index is a measurement of how easy it is to get a date by participating in a community. (That's somewhere between a joke and dead serious.)

When I was in college at the University of Minnesota, I think there was about maybe 70 Christian clubs, and maybe 1-2 Buddhist clubs and a mindfulness club. The main Christian club called Campus Crusaders had maybe 300-500 members of what appeared to be good looking people, men and women, and the mindfulness club has maybe 6-8 people on a very good day. (I mention attractiveness because as a marketing effect it attracts people, increasing the group following. It cannot be underestimated.) When I went by a meeting when I was on campus going home I was greeted by just about anyone I approached, they were so friendly, so eager to talk, like they were jumping at the chance to be your friend, and not as some ulterior motive to get you to join, like, they seemed like they were openly sociable.

Well, there are no pragmatic places I can get a date, as much as I wish that there was. There are some IMS places that have a few young people, but they are far more anti-social than the Christian ones, with a sense of, 'I'm so spiritual and young and pretty! I get it!' I joke with my friend that there's no group more egotistical than American Buddhists. Not all of them, but there does seem to be a different attitude on average.

Thus, I would argue that while pragmatic dharma is kinda sorta a community, it is too weak at this point to really be what it ought to be. One of my original posts n this thread was going to address that issue, by listing off what options there are:

1) Develop pragmatic dharma through institutions like IMS as an extension
2) Start new places from the ground up
3) Utilize the internet

Number 3 is where things have gone. Now, I think the pragmatic dharma community is a community and it was really established as such by the Buddhist Geeks conferences. I lurked Vincent Horn's twitter some more and he has some interesting takes on de-centralized teaching communities. My first thought was, could there be a sort of Uber for pragmatic dharma, where there are meet ups but less grounded by institutions? I'm not sure, I've put a literal 3 minutes of thinking into it.

The easiest option are group skypimg, already presented in this thread. That's not a bad idea, of course, I'm just coming at this from the ground of, I think pragmatic dharma appeals more to someone like Dan Harris than Boomer Buddhism does. Dan Harris is friends with Jay Michaelson, who knows about this stuff, but I have not heard Dan Harris mention anything about a hardcore goal orientated practice to match his hardcore goal lifestyle. Or a more engaged tantric approach rather than a more renunciate approach, it just never made logical sense to me, well, except he's a new atheist and I think many new atheists are offput by connotations of enlightenment, as to them it still remains in group with things like Santa Clause. Thank God for Sam Harris!

So, I think all these places do form a community, but it seems many of the current teachers are off doing their own thing: Hokai Sobol, Alan Chapman, Vincent Horn, etc. This is contrasted to the IMS place I go to where it's stationary and somewhat big wig names come in time to time as guest speakers. It's run VERY well. It's so normal, but so well run, I don't think many people understand what an anomaly this IMS satellite actually is. I don't see any hierarchy alliance working with pragmatic dharma, because they're all doing their own thing, and your question is probably the first time I've heard it really proposed, although I always thought of all these people as part of the pragmatic dharma supergroup. 

The more I think about your question the more I cannot really answer it. The only hypothesis I have is that forms of pragmatic dharma appeal to younger people much more than older people. I think currently the population of pragmatic dharma as of 2015 is considerably smaller than boomer buddhism. But I think that the potential pragmatic dharma population is significantly higher in the long run. MBSR is a good example of the large demand for meditation stuff if it's marketed/discoursed/encapsulated properly. But I suspect the bulk of the potential demographics want awakening, not Buddhism, and that's a huge, huge, huge, huge difference in terms of framing/marketing. That's why I keep going back to discourse, because boomer buddhism is it's own discourse, MCTB is it's own discourse, Shinzen has his own discourse, etc. I truly believe that pragmatic dharma suffers a big marketing problem of which I neither fully understand nor can formulate properly.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:15 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:15 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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Yeah, lots of disjointed teaching/websites going on.  I like the idea that there is a huge amount of potential to be a community/make an impact in society.  I haven't fully written it down, but I have this idea of back-translating the pragmatic dharma into mainstream, western buddhism.  Meaning, the same way Daniel and others have taken traditional buddhist teachings (and, in a sense, western-mainstream teachings) and translated them a certain way, how could pragmatic buddhist teachings then be properly taught in reverse, back to where they came from?

Some themes in this back-translation are naturalization, pragmatism, secularization, goal-orientation, isolating trainings, impersonal maps of development, realistic definitions of enlightenment, peer guidance or mentorship over teacher-authority, etc.

Anyway, I think this type of reconnection and communication could help your goal of linking with major institutions.

On another note, I think skype is a great idea and totally doable.  Why don't we have google hangouts?  They do them on Awake Network sometimes.  Tom Otvos has even posted a "how-to" guide for planning successful pragmatic-dharma google hangouts.
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:42 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:42 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

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There are actually 3 IMS teachers, well maybe 5 where I live. I've seriously contemplated it, I think they're very happy to have me, and if I asked them about starting something more open about practice, they'd absolutely be on board. I haven't yet done so because I am going through lots of mediation and simply want to wait some time before I start taking a proactive approach, in addition to the overwhelming complexity in any proposal of something different. The IMS and affiliates appears to be a large group of people, and therefore a wide range of who is in it, meaning some people who are very competent and some people who are less so, different big vision plans, etc. Or, the IMS is not a monolithic organization.

I'm down to do skyping later in the evening, I have a pretty straightforward daily schedule so I'm reluctant to do skyping in the am.
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Ryan J, modified 8 Years ago at 6/10/15 12:15 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 6/9/15 11:46 PM

RE: Crafting an All-Inclusive Pragmatic Dharma

Posts: 121 Join Date: 2/19/14 Recent Posts
One IMS teacher I showed a (to some controversial) Jayarava article and he was delighted with it and put it in a newsletter. You cannot do that on the DhO. Their retreats have bathrooms for trans-gender people. These guys will answer hard questions, they obviously care about inclusivity (Although I raise the issue of: Do we act inclusive to republicans?) so the notion of pragmatic dharma and mushroom culture is not so easily defined.

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