I e-mailed Ron, but I think I should get other opinions/personal experiences as well.  I did use google as well as the dho search and couldn't quite find an answer to my question in archived threads.

It seems that what I'm doing right now (conceptual play, asking questions, sort of "feeling it out" inside my head, dropping striving, noticing things as they are, noticing resistances, etc.) is necessary for me to deepen my practice.  However, I am not doing what has worked for me from 0 to 3rd path (first-gear, mahasi-noting-with-mental-labels in daily life).  Thus far, even up through 3rd, focusing on nanas and cycles has worked.

Am I right to be shifting towards this other, self-inquiry, type-thing?  What would be the most effective way to use my attention to get 4th Path?  In your experience, must the 4th Path-shift come at the end of a cycle, or can it come as a deeping at any time, independent of the cycles?

Please note that goal and map-oriented practice works really well for me, so I'm not just going to "drop the effort or the concepts" this late in the game, which seems to be a message many dho users have.  

This is what seems to happen a lot:

You may get lots of differing or similar pieces of advice from various people speaking from their own experience or maybe not. You may then get a little confused as to what to put into practice. You may try this. You may try that. After some experimenting, frustration at the lack of the infamous flip may take hold.

"Gotta get this done somehow!!!!"

The frustration at what to do may continue to grow as you seek out the "correct" way while incesantly asking yourself..."what am I missing?". Overtime, the frustration may reach its peak,  and then.......

In that moment, you give up. You throw your hands up in the air and yell "I have no idea what to do to flip this frick'n thing! I. Give. Up!"

From here, there is a natural letting go, a surrendering of all that habitual effort and "seeking" out the answer that has seemingly brought us thus far. Beginner's Mind is allowed to become established naturally as a result and you then may return to one of your original practices that has been so successful in the past. But now it's without the incessant what-have-I-got-to-see-to-flip-it?-type thoughts conditioning the moment.

Then when you least expect it.........szzzzwweeerrp!

The Beginner's Mind is the place to be as there is no weight being tossed about. Whatever good practice is being put into use will now be clean and clear from that seeking conditioning. That is when approaches and techniques seem to trigger good results in my experience. Somehow it seems, a lot of us seem to have had to pass through this Seek->Strive->Frustration->Give up process. In fact, every major baseline shift I have ever had has occured after this same process. You may just have to run this course. 

My 2 cent prod.
Nick

Edited for flow and typos

Talk about too many cooks spoiling the broth...

Nikolai's feedback rings the most true for me. Use that as your pointer for a year or two, see what happens.

Been working on this a while. Follow your intuition...
list of links for 3rd to fourth....have fun.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2759757?_19_keywords=&_19_advancedSearch=false&_19_andOperator=true&_19_resetCur=false&_19_delta=75#_19_message_2718243


http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/294901

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/365917?_19_threadView=tree

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/664639

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/95028#_19_message_95047

That should keep you busy for a while...
Good luck
~D

Hey Noah,

Personally after 3rd path I kept practicing following cycles, doing noting of bodily sensations like I had for the first 3 paths.  I also did a fair amount of Jhana practice, mostly using them to get my mind calm and then switch to insight.  When I was nearing 4th path, I started going through cycles pretty rapidly, as has been said, going through maybe one or two cycles, or more, in 20 minutes of sitting.  Acomplishing more cycles was nice initially, but then it started to feel like it wasn't doing much, like the cycles were just small blips on my radar, not major acomplishments.

When 4th path occured it happened out of the blue, totally unrellated to cycling and also totally seperate and distinct from any frutition type experience.  There was no cessation, it was more like the fabric of my experience suddenly bulged and shifted backword.  Hard to describe, the point being it was a unique experience.  At 4th path you experience emptiness for the first time, so it is a totally new/novel experience. 

Also just to add, the major marker of 4th path IMO is that conceptual thought is seen as empty.  Implicitly, the passage in the Heart Sutra 'form is emptyness, emptyness is form, form is none other than emptiness, emptiness is none other than form' describes 4 progressive attainments, of which 4th path is the first.  At 4th path one sees that form is empty, i.e. the solidity of concept is negated by emptiness.  The rest of the passage decribes the next 3 attainments experientially. 

Anyhow I would say keep doing what works, as the most important thing is to maintain a strong continuity of mindfulness.  Good luck!

Thanks TDC, the data point on it not being a fruition helps me confirm my own suspicions.  Also, that is a very interesting map theory (following the heart sutra progression).  I actually totally vibe with the idea that "conceptual thought is seen as empty."  The past few days have been the first time that I have ever felt like my negative emotions and obsessive thought patterns are no big deal.

Sent you a message

I think I completed 3rd Path because Ron Crouch thinks I've completed 3rd Path.  Edit: I assume Ron thinks I've completed 3rd Path because it follows a certain pattern, looks a certain way, and he has seen it enough times to recognize it accurately.  The words "late 3rd path" are my own.  For all I know, it could take another year.  I've been working with Ron since November of last year, every two weeks.  

Before working Ron I was noting in daily life, all day, every day, since about August of 2013.  So its been about two years.  First path took over a year and a half, then 1 month of review.  Second path took about 3 weeks, then another month of review.  Third might've taken a month and one half (?), then 1 month of review.  

Before that I had been meditating inconsistently in various traditions (starting with mindfulness at age 10,lol, and including various interesting energetic transmissions and such, which may have helped).

My best mind ability is that I am curing my bipolar disorder.  I have pretty hardcore bipolar, the type that keeps people unemployed and destroys relationships (and minds).  So yeah, just less reactivity, more happiness, more relaxation, more openness.  And I can get into soft jhanas really well, and hard ones with a lot of work.  Also, my ability to use law of attraction/magick seems to have increased.
-------------------------
Edited for caution in my word-choice about Ron and what he thinks, and what thoughts are my own.

Regarding "late third path": I oddly enough rarely jump into these discussions, but I am wondering what you "look like", what pattern has been noticed, what do you notice about your waking experience that is different, and the like. What criteria are you using for "third path", as there are a lot of them out there, even in this relatively small community?

Hi Daniel,

Yeah, I'm honored for you to jump in.  So I'll say the criteria since its obviously nothing new to you (although I sometimes don't want to spill all the beans that I actually pay Ron for).

 At theoretical completion of third path, Ron had me try to call up soft formless realms (which may just be 4th jhana sup-aspects ? idk).  It worked very clearly, as each formless realm presented itself fairly neatly with a new type of opening/refining/nothingness/etc. (details are in my practice log).  

He then had me call up soft PL jhanas (with a different, interesting pointer).  I felt way opened up in a way I hadn't before, and the pure land 'calling up' was specifically weird, creepy, and fun.  PL felt like a whole other room "up there" that I wouldn't have known about.  

Also, he had me call up Nirodha Sammapati (which I think you might call 'NS-lite') with a different pointer.  It worked, I found the "button" and felt oddly euphoric and did pretty much blip out.

All of these were totally new to me as I don't ever purposely practice jhana.  All of them clearly worked even though they were soft/wimpy/lite verisons.

Ron didn't diagnose me after passing these test, actually.  It wasn't until two weeks later (our next meeting) that he diagnosed me because I went up through the rupa-jhanas (this time very deep, full versions of them), spontaneously while noting-out-loud.  Basically, I was showing Review symptoms after completing 3 or 4 cycles post-2nd path without showing a full Review on any of the previous 3 to 4.  His bottom line was that I wouldn't be in Review if I hadn't gotten Path.

In terms of what I look like: It was the first time that I had seen a dent in my bipolar disorder.  Agitation in the body that would be triggered by many different environmental "pressure" simply wouldn't arise or would be very wimpy and pass quickly.  To a lesser degree, obsessive thought lessened.  These positive, mental-healthy stability effects took about a week to set in.  

My mom saw me about to freak out about a last minute pressure/inconvenience before going to work and then immediately calm down without ever starting.  She hadn't ever seen me do that before.  Other times, it manifests internally as calmness but I still appear tense externally.  My coworker thought I was upset even though I felt super calm inside.  

Also, when I closed my eyes, my mind felt like a completly open room, one with no roof.  This had been an increasing effect every since SE.  

Thanks for your interest,
Noah

I will chime in too on the delineation of the 3rd path.  In my personal practice I found this thread (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/294901) to be very helpful in terms of describing the 3rd path moment and effects.

Basically the 3rd path moment I experienced was the result of a long train of thought which culminanted in a realization, like "ah, that's how it is!"  In the period of time leading up to it, I was having some memories of how I had felt in the past, and wondering why, and this realisation basically brought this period to a clear resolution.  I believe Daniel described the path moment as "the circle is complete", which definantely resonated with my experience.  I have a friend who also experienced third path as a moment of sudden and (roughly) logical realization.

After this path moment there was an immediately noticible effect of greatly increased confidence.  This is highlighed in the thread linked above, and was also very much my friends experience.  Going by these various testimonies, the 3rd path moment seems to have both a distinct character, and a clear immediate effect of boosted confidence.  Personally I would say that with all genuine attainment, the effects are immediate and and seem to relatively decrease over time with continued expererience at the new level.  Benefits that seem to show up later may be unrelated to attainment and are not clear markers.

Another effect of 3rd path in my own experience was subsequent ease of access to the second four jhanas, or the imaterial jhanas.  After 2nd path I had relatively easy access to the first four jhanas with some work, but little little luck with the second four.  After 3rd path, my mental power was boosted such that all eight jhanas were within easy reach after some practice with them.  I was also then able to attain Nirodah sampatti for the first time.  IMO, if you are experiencing deep versions of all 8 jhanas, then there may definately be reason to think you have attained 3rd path. 

However, especially with Nirodah, and somewhat also with the jhanas, it is possible to script yourself into an experience.   With Nirodah the big key is that the 'formations' or patterns of mind are temporarily reset and gradually rebuilt after the fruition/cessation blip.  Also if you do not practice jhanas regularly, make sure to study their descriptions and apply this knowledge to practice, but shifting from one to the other should be relatively effortless and not forced (as you are probably aware).  I say this because sometimes there is a tendency to try to force ourselves into new territory.  When we really want to achieve something, it is sometimes possible to trick ourselves, which causes temporaray stagnation.  Regardless of how much we want to achieve something, we won't be truly satisfied until we achieve it for real.  I'm not to try to call you out, but for safety's sake it's worth considering because I, and probably most, struggled with this even at higher levels of attainment. 

I hope this post helps!  Let me know what you think! 

Yeah, I'm totally cool with it either being 3rd Path or not 3rd Path.  I'm getting what I want out of the process, and also, my experience matches the descriptions others provide.  However, if it isn't 3rd Path, its a good thing, because it means this thing keeps getting better.  

This progress of insight sort of isn't a "big deal" like I thought it was initially.  The path moments and other markers come and go and usually aren't life changing or totally absorbing events in the traditional sense.  I do feel a lot different, like many layers of perceptual skin have been ripped off, and it is hugely advantageous like nothing else, but at the same time, its not a big deal.  

Sometimes when people talk with such intensity about it I feel like they're putting it on the pedastal.  It took my a long time, but progress was very rapid.  In the end, I trust Ron's advice and diagnosis because he's tracked the progress of a lot of different meditators so he obviously has an expert opinion.

Noah,

It's good the path is having a positive impact, and ultimately that's what matters.

My personal intensity about it comes from the great satisfaction of genuine realization, and the desire to lead others to this state.  In my view, with MCTB Daniel started something that Buddhism finished long ago, something which has largely been forgotten and ingnored.  MCTB is like a golden key that allows one to realize the subsequent higher attainments on the Buddhist path, all the way to enlightenment.

People experience progress in many different ways, and everyone is a little different.  Given this, it is wholly miraculous that a standard path of attainment exists and has been tracked, all the way to the end.  I truly belive that the end state of enlightenment is in some sense the purpose of life.  To give people the tools to achieve it by sharing a standard map of attainment thus seems incredibly worthwhile. 

I don't mean to come accross too strongly, but I do have very strong feelings about this.  Best of luck!

Cheers,
Tim

I hear you, Tim.  I'm just expressing this feeling I have which is probably more of a subjective reaction than an objective observation.  

If I were to state things totally wise and objectively I would probably say: "Wow, I feel so amazingly different than how I felt before stream entry in December!  This is awesome.  Who would have thought that such a free, raw, open, panoramic, integrated, complete, nondual, resting-state-of-mind could ever be possible in such short time?  I never could have imagined that even my most difficult emotions could be objectified and rendered virtually harmless."

So, basically, the most logical, wise part of me is agreeing with you.  Thank you for sharing and helping.

Alright, let me sift through the responses, one by one:

@Daniel: My responses to your criteria-
          1) Yes, very different, walking-around experience
          1i) I don't know if I feel that "things are happening on their own."  Things are not sticky, they come and go.  The causality in them is way more obvious than before.  But the "me-ness" in them is also obvious, but is just another causality, albeit a more constant one.  There are a few exceptions, which are obvious (such deep-seated, negative self-beliefs underlying trains of obsessive thought).  To summarize, I can feel volition, but it is just another, naturally arising and passing sensation.
          1ii) I very much resonate with the "awake where they are" notion.  My a/c is buzzing three feet from me, and my mind is physically registering it three feet away.  There is also some synesthesia as I feel the sound, rather than just hearing it.  My depth perception is changed, all the time.  The sky seems lower, or I seem higher/taller.  Things are either farther away or closer.  All this is feels very pleasant, integrated and fine in its suchness.  When I experienced such reality-warping perceptions in the past, there was a slight tension as part of my mind was resisting it.  Now my mind is just chill, with it, its all good.  No need to change.
          2 &3) I can see why the jhana criteria are weak.  I think the point isn't whether or not the jhanas I experienced (during Ron's diagnostic tests) were soft or highly fabricated, but the fact that my mind was malleable enough to do so and the fact that the things it could create/reach toward were as subtle as make-believe PL or NS.  So, even if my jhanas were bs, they reveal a certain, new quality of my mind. I can state, with confidence, that this quality was not there before the 3rd Path moment.  In fact, since after SE, I have been feeling closer and closer to jhana at the drop of a hat.  It feels like my mind is already halfway to 1st jhana in its openness when I close my eyes while not meditating.  The veil separating the "me" from those deeper levels of mind is much thinner.
         
Thank you for priceless two cents.  I wouldn't be suprised if you and Ron found that you guys were talking about the same territory if you two sat down and spoke for an extended period of time.

One last question: Where is the significance of the Review phase?  Review A? Review B?  How do the presence or absence of such symptoms factor into your method of dharma diagnosis?

@Pawel: Interesting write-up.  Further clarity on your model, and how it may or may not differ from others.  I admire the strict standards.  I do feel the sense of the 3rd jhana thing currently.  There is some weird, trippy, warping to my perception taking place, which feels like that cool-cave sensation of the 3rd jhana.  I agree that the forum could benefit from more long descriptions from Daniel, but I would guess that it gets tedious over time.

@Jenny: I also only feel agencylessness in certain moments.  I don't feel like it has to be that prominent all the time, or at least I would use different words to describe it: I would note how everything is cause and effect, everything has one-taste, nothing is framed by anything else, there is no center point of caring.  To me, these things are more prevalent.   
          It seems very possible that I am missing something about the "atemporality" of perception.  Its not really about time for me right now, its just about ease of being and the spontaneous arising of all things, but not necessarily the lack of a point a and point b.  Maybe we are talking about similar phenomenon, or maybe not.  I definitely vibe with the whole luminosity, awareness-in-the-object thing.
          Jenny, thank you so much for all your work on the book.  I second your notion of including all possible information from the gold mine of Daniel's brain!  The 4 path model can be incredibly helpful, especially under the guidance of a teacher and in the care of the watchful and balanced yogi who is using it.  Please understand this and kindly help us get as much information as possible (despite your personal preference).  Thanks again
          That quote about reality already being synched was trippy and really got me.

@Fitter: Yes, I agree that Nick's post was super helpful.  Showed profound insight into the fish-out-of-water nature of this path, especially late in the game.  Ron gave me some helpful warnings about the potential frustrations going from 3rd to 4th.

Pawel:

[Laughing out loud!] I'll try!


I'm honored by your confidence, especially since your standards are even higher, more arcane, more synesthetic , and of course more chakra-rific than Daniel Ingram's!

Your intense but currently amused friend in the dharma (and drama),

Jenny

Pawel K:
-Since last Saturday night (6/13/15), it has felt like I have lost a physical barrier between me and outside reality.  Space seems less signficant as a way to organize the sense of my body.
-I feel very calm and pacified.  Agitation and all other negative emotions pass by about 3x as quickly as they did before.  For the first time in my vipassana practice, I can look at inner events as they come and go and they have the same quality as outer events.
-There is a feeling of a donut of observerness on the periphery of my perception.  There is a feeling of physical openness or space in my consciousness.  It feels like my mind is a cloud.
-There is a distinct lack of intensity or drama or significance of personal narrative.  All things are mellow.  No things are a big deal.  This notion manifests as a sense or certainty or security in my lower dan tien, and also as a lightness continuing further up my torso.  In my mind, it feels like there is more space for thoughts to move around in.

hi Pawel,

so that is that..

I appreciate you (which you are not asking for, I am just choosing to say it).  I appreciate the psychic insight in the response you crafted to Jenny about the various eyes through which intuition could be experienced (or maybe this is a miswording).  

I truly don't care where I am on your map, even though I acknowledge it as legitimate.

I see all maps as being forms of upaya, or skillful means.  Take what works, and fuck the rest.  This is the notion which I started with, having two Western parents who studied eastern traditions, and which was reinforced through grounded interaction with my teacher.

Each moment and situation presents its own insight, including text I see on this screen and mental action as I evaluate those images.

What is it about this moment which is lacking?

That continues to be my open question.

Thank you,
Noah

HI, Noah! You said...

I humbly suggest that you consider flipping this inquiry/koan to be, "What is it I am adding to this moment that is fabricated?"

That was the insight that flipped the universe on its head for me  :-)

Thanks Chris.  Its interesting how it seems to be a literal koan that does the trick for a lot of folks.

Noah, the transition is very much more koan-like that anything else I can describe it as. That's why when I'm asked I tell folks to relax and let the experience of your full on, total experience sink in. Be with that. Full spectrum, not microscopically focused on just one object.

Pawel,

Are you saying I do care, or that I don't care? I'm just checking in with you to find out how I really am today. 

I cared a huge, huge deal after the August 8 path and was rather map/model obsessed because I couldn't tell that I was having Review fruitions. And there were some other very usual aspects of that path fruition, notably the restart of reality.

My current take is that I find path models problematic, regardless of what path I may or may not be said to have. "Paths" are constructs, after all, not some kind of perfectly valid and reliable measure. What I do in practice today is influenced not one iota by whether I or anyone thinks I have first, second, or third. 

By the way, Daniel ought to add to his third-path criteria one more: 4. Doesn't care whether he or she has third. 

Jenny

Ha! Yeah, you are right, Pawel: I don't care. The thing is--if one has a persistent attainment in walking-around life, one is getting the benefit of that directly. Who cares what path is it called?

It is like when I'm at the coffee shop: I pay for my coffee with a credit card, and the barista asks me if I want a receipt. I always say, "I've got the coffee!" 

Ah, 50 years from now I may be available to edit next book.

Jenny

Well, here goes politics and chaos. It was going to happen eventually, so we might as well get it over with.

Various teachers use various criteria for third path. While I prefer the Simple Model, if we are going to use four path terminology, then this is how I think of it, in case anyone is interested:

Third path:

1) Waking, walking-around reality should be very, very different from how it was before, with specific changes realted to the following:

i) Things should mostly seem to be happening on their own: that includes thoughts, actions, perception, intentions, feelings, movements, everything. This should be the dominant waking experience, with portions of experience that are not naturally known as being that way being the minority. The natural causality and self-lessness of action should be clear most of the time and for most things. In short, third path is a set up to fourth path, like a getting close but not quite. As a waking experience, it is most of the way there.

ii) One's waking experience of awareness should be very different. There are lots of ways to say this, but I tend towards the following descriptions: the basic light/luminosity/awareness/manifestation in phenomena should mostly be known directly as being where the objects are. Said another way, manifest objects and sensations should be largely known to contain their own awareness in them, with them, as them, being the same thing. In short, the sense that this side is perceiving that side should be markedly diminished, and the sense that that side and substantial parts of this side are just stuff that knows itself where it is should predominate, with these exceptions becoming more and more subtle as insight deepens, until exceptions are very hard to find. In short, third path is a set up to fourth, like getting close but not quite. It is most of the way there and should point to what is left to be done and how to do it.

2) I don't use jhanic criteria for third path, as I don't find them reliable, and that includes what Kenneth Folk proprietarily calls The Pure Land Jhanas®. Jhanas are very manipulable, criteria for these PL® jhanas are not easily defined, and it is easy enough for people with sufficient focus to craft jhanic experiences that meet their expectations. I have played around extensively with various combinations of enjoyable and pleasant factors and found that the potential for trouble by overcalling these crafted experiences is quite large. Thus, I don't find them reliable enough to be used for something as important as realization criteria, something I obviously take seriously. The potential to totally overcall attainments and miss important points about basic insight is huge.

3) Nirodha Samapatti: as I have stated many times, I think that the overcalling of this is common, or common as things in this small meditative world go, as there are not actually that many that claim to have NS. Most of the time the descriptions I read don't convince me that they were the real thing. It is easy to script this, to get into something moderately formless, to get into the 7th or 8th jhana, to take some lower jhana into something more formless by taking it as object (even the first jhana can cause the body to totally dissappear if the focus is right and concentration strong enough), and then think this was NS. Even a good Fruition might be a solid mimic, but that is a trivial attainment in comparison. Thus, I don't use NS as my primary criteria either, but, if someone really thinks that they get it, that is certainly interesting. However, how this may help if they don't have the points in 1) above, I don't know, as without those they still don't have what I consider the whole point of third path: to have something that points strongly to what fourth path is about, with it just needing to have that same basic insight applied to the nagging remainders and hold-out patterns of experience for which identification and delusion is stronger and which are more sticky and subtle.

My two cents, anyway. Let other teachers call things as they do, that's their right. In this business, finding concensus is very, very difficult, so I am not really expecting much of that. I simply present these points and criteria to clarify things, lest by association people think we are all on the same page, which we aren't.

Daniel,

I definitely have No. i, but not "most of the time."

I definitely have No. ii, intensely, all of the time. Most has gone over to the other side, and I see what at least some of the remaining problems are in recent Cause-and-Effect and in Nothingness.

I have not attained N.S. (You've stated elsewhere that many, most, with third and fourth still cannot get N.S., and it took you many tries., so is this a criterion such that if absent the person "cannot" have third?) 

Your introduction of your list does not make clear whether all three two have to be met for Third Path to have been attained. Please clarify.

As you know, I've had only two path moments that I can identify with certainty, yet I match Stage 5 in the Simple Model, which aligns with third path. This set of fact confuses me, but I think it is the fault of the models when it comes down to it.

Thanks in advance for clarification of your list here.

Jenny

EDIT: Oh, and if that list is the minimum criteria for third, then if, say, No. 1 is not "the vast majority of the time," but definitely there a lot of the time, does that automatically put one at second path? In other words, is it common to have luminosity all the time and agencyless a lot of the time and be only second path? If so, then why does the Simple Model not say this? The Simple Model for Second says only that another insight cycle was completed. This is something I had planned to hammer out with you when we got to MCTB2 path models chapter, becauser the models seem to say almost nothing for second path.

Daniel, 

As with much else in MCTB2, I'm going to ask you, too, to clarify where you got these criteria. What are the sources since you don't "teach" scores, let alone, hundreds of students but have had only two people that I know of whom you've been a "teacher" to.

Are these Bill Hamilton's criteria, for example? Or does this reflect just what happened to you personally, a sample size of 1?

(Be careful to identify the sources of your knowledge and assertions--your editor.)

Jenny

I wanted to ask this question too.
Also, Daniel, I love the precision and high bar of your criteria. I think that's why I keep meaning to clarify the point that Jenny is bringing up.

We've been wrestling with this same issue over the section on Six Doors to Fruition--that section of MCTB bugged the hell out of me b/c Daniel never states his sources for the information. Nor does he state that only "elite" meditators are likely to see the Doors. Lots and lots left completely out, which causes confusion and ultimately intimidation of the reader.

But we are rectifying this shortcoming presently, aren't we, Daniel? 

Sorry, Daniel--but one more question: Are those criteria for the very beginning of Third Path? Or "late" Third Path? I ask because I just saw up thread that people, including you, reference "late."

Going from Third Path attainment to Fourth is normally very long in calendar time, from what I've observed. So If your criteria are present right when Third Path is attained, then what happens for the rest of the Fourth Path? Are there any more "walking around" changes? Do the ones had from the beginning deepen any? Or are the implications seen better? Anything? Or is it just work work work till the last flip?

Thank you for spelling things out. I'm a fan of honesty.

Jenny

Truly, for both parts, to which I believe Dan will attest.

I thought somewhere on the DhO Daniel said agencylessness isn't sensed all the time even after 4th? Am I wrong about that? 

With regard to agencylessness--I am often spontaneously experiencing that in the forefront of all that I'm experiencing. So, for example, when I'm driving the car, suddenly there is keenly the sense that I'm not driving the car through other traffic, I'm not "doing" any of this; rather, everything, including the other movements of cars, my car, trees, everything is happening at once, instantaneously, of an interwoven piece. This is not a conceptual understanding but, profoundly, a direct experience.

Now, when I'm sitting at my dest and working, I'm not thinking about agency and it usually isn't in blasting out calls for attention one way or the other. I can tune into agencylessness most of the time, I think, but it isn't just already prominent except during those times I refer to as "spontaneously" in the forefront, which is normally several times a day for minutes to hours.

I've also had direct insight into what creates the illusion of agency in the first place, and I've drawn diagrams elsewhere to show that "intent" is actually part of "mental echo" that is, after the fact, written onto whatever happens, but as a prestory to whatever happens. This writing back onto experience a prestory is so the self can take credit for parts of experience and call it "intent" or "agency." Before my January path, I directly saw this during meditation, and the effect was that "intent" as a prestory dropped and was seen to be a mental echo only, after the fact.

Then with the path of January 29, the mental echo part also dropped out, so there was only "what's happening." I realized that agencylessness has to do with temporal perception. If you are sufficiently "in the moment," then when the moment coincides with itself perfectly, there can be no agent. It just can't happen as felt experience. I wrote in the margins of draft MCTB2 about this to Daniel. I said something about "temporal" perception, and he said something like "you could just as well say attemporal."

So, my question remains to Daniel, how far does agencylessness have to go, at minimum, if we are to say one is of third path?

As for luminosity, I've not seen or heard anywhere that it can happen to one of second path. Daniel, please correct me if I'm wrong. Can one have luminosity all of the time in second path? I experience most of what used to be on my side as in the percepts now--meaning awareness is in them. This is strong and direct. And with this change came and continues the sense that what I used to call "perception" is now taking place much more efficiently than before, without a bunch of "looping" of the percept into the mind to be spit back out by the mind and taken in an additional time by the mind to take credit for "perception."

So, you see, there is a temporal-versus-immediacy aspect to luminosity, as well as agencylessness. In fact, time-space is different in both agencylessness and luminosity. All between both hooks up somehow.

Now, I recently have had insight into self-replicating "background." I've seen this as an arrow-of-time conundrum in Cause-and-Effect stage (first C&E stage after Jan. path). And I've seen it it in the formless realm Nothingness, which, in my experience, in an extremely interesting laboratory in which one may, where virtually all objects have been stripped away, see some kind of fluctuation of almost pure relationship itself. So, there, I sometimes seem to be "facing down" something, only it is "nothing." But then this flip-flopping happens whereby sometimes I'm not on one side versus the other, which is to say "versus nothingness," hahahaha!
 
Truly.

Daniel, thank you for the courage you have shown by publishing your high standards and being honest about them. You are continually having to take shit for what you've already put out there, and have had to take it for years. So many of us are grateful. But, as Pawel hints, please expand that honesty in MCTB2 (ie, be willing to take more shit, haha).

For example, why wasn't this list published till today? What else might you say in MCTB2 if not holding back to prevent "chaos and politics"? Please take heart and maintain courage. Realize that when this book goes to press, it goes to press and the door will close. As a practictioner, I need clarity, and I trust you more than I do anyone in the dharma world. I do not wish to delude myself that I have insights or attainment that I do not, but this is bound to happen to me and most others if we don't have specificity with regard to insights as benchmarks, as attainments that change perception.

The Path Models section will be rough going when we get there, for I've plenty of criticism I've long stored up for both the Revised Four-Path Model and the Simple Model. I wish that all path models would just die. I like the impulse of the Simple Model much better, for it avoids all this ambiguity concerning how many path cycles have been completed and how that does or does not map to actual insights.

Why not toss the paths, stop counting them, and privilege insights and solid walking-around perceptual changes instead? To make the Simple Model work and be adopted, it 

1. Needs to be vertically numbered for ease of shorthanding,
2. Needs to have something to actually say for the early stages besides reference to "paths" or in other words "cycles," 
3. Needs to be more detailed, and
4. Needs for the Revised Four-Path model to go away so that everyone starts actually using the Simple Model instead.

Jenny

This is very valuable editing, and an important job. Keep up the good work.

Daniel M. Ingram:

This, too, then, in MCTB2?

And this:

And, Pawel, this is, in Daniel's model, not second, but it is certainly describing what I'm experiencing. 

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/294901

Pawel:
Ummmm, dear Pawel, I think it is more the other way around: You split in two the 3rd path of Daniel, who is your predecessor mapper and modeler, after all, and glued part of his 3rd onto your 2nd and you call that result your model's 2nd.  LOL!!!


Firstly, just so we are clear, maybe I'll subscribe to the Pawel K Projector/Projection Chakra-Something model when I begin to understand it.

Meantime, my terminology, and that is all it is, derives from Ingram's MCTB(2). When I say that this is only terminology, all I mean by  that statement is that the insight or attainments are what they are, and aren't what they aren't, regardless of whether I call them "second" or "third" or "Path 2.5." Same work has to be done, regardless of what we call them. That work likely must continue for years and years, as is usual even for the masterful, which I'm not.

Secondly, let's imagine that I've attained MCTB second path, which may well be the case. Wouldn't that mean I'm currently on third path? Yes, that would be correct. So, then, my current path jhana would be third, would it not? Why does the path jhana of your model come from the completed path number, not the current path being walked? Well, I guess that is standard, but I'd like to hear your explanation anyway.

Thirdly, I just read Daniel's new MCTB2 chapter on the generic (neither vipassana nor samatha) jhanas. I'm trying to understand what second jhanic factors you think you see in my (private) January shift descriptions, or my current descriptions of "luminosity" or agencylessness, both of which you've read

Thanks for clarifying. I'm genuinely curious.

Jenny

Love it! 

I hearby declare, from this day forth, that all posts should end with this. 

So that is that...

and then there's just one thing to add: ". . . or not."

Pawel:

Word! I agree with you (I think). I had a huge long list of very definite insights and effects from my first path, yet I couldn't get Review fruitions. I saw Dependent Origination on path Fruition, yet I doubted myself later merely because of cycle-completion criteria.

One way to "tell," albeit subjectively, whether one has insight is simply to listen to, or read, him or her. The wisdom will pour forth if the insight is real. 

I would encourage Daniel to hold to his high standards and not be influenced by political concerns, regardless of whether those political concerns involve his personal friends--for the sake of all beings (and for crying out loud).

I admire your courage, Pawel.

Jenny

Pawel,

Well, that explains everything, ha! 

Thanks for your explanations. Having synesthesia must be totally weird. I think Daniel said somewhere that he can see sounds or something, too? But I think he was like that back when he ran sound at Cat's Cradle, long, long ago.

Jenny

This isn't a response to anyone's comment in particular, but just to the general direction of the discussion we have been having.  Hearing from Daniel, Pawel, Jenny and others (as well as having private conversations on the side), has helped me refine my definition of what I am aiming for when I say '4th path.'  I have adjusted the introductory post to my practice log accordingly.

I'm not trying to make a self-important announcement, but rather just saying this in case anyone finds it relevant since it was initially my question in this thread (as well as a premature 4th claim in my other, practice thread) that sparked this most recent line of discussion.

I'm actually really grateful to now be able to speak about practice and its goals with much more precision.

Did someone split off Droll's coment? No! Help! That's not what I meant! 

Anyway to glue it back together again? hahahahaha!

I like what Jenny has said.

High-quality (i.e. detailed, technical, honest) information is so woefully lacking that it's worth about any cost to get it out there. Daniel has a unique and very valuable voice on this subject. There are those of us who want the real deal and nothing else, even if that is the minority, and our gratitude would outweigh the short-lived irritation of anyone who had an issue with it.

Hi, Noah,

I wonder if you've considered writing up your method and results and posting them somewhere public, even in an open-access journal?

I found a metastudy that suggests that meditation is currently not thought to relieve bipolar:

Mental Disorders, Religion and Spirituality 1990 to 2010: A Systematic Evidence-Based Review

From that paper:

"All studies on dementia, suicide, and stress-related disorders found a positive association, as well as 79 and 67 % of the papers on depression and substance abuse, respectively. In contrast, findings from the few studies in schizophrenia were mixed, and in bipolar disorder, indicated no association or a negative one."

It might be good to set the record straight by setting out the facts of your own results. It won't be a controlled study, of course, but will be the best that can be done for now.

Is that something that appeals to you?

Hi Derek,

It definitely appeals to me.  I don't think I'm the first to do something like this, as Ron has mentioned others, and Kenneth himself was no longer depressed at 4th path.

There is probably a big difference between what I have done (what most of us on the dho have done) and what the participants of the studies did.  I would assume they used a "spot-stick"/temporary-solution strategy of developing 1st jhana to get to a place who's after glow would be temporarily soothing in daily life.  They also probably framed the development of sati as a skill that should be intentionally and consciously applied during difficult situations (and not equally in pleasant ones, which is wrong) to make the participant "feel" better.  After the difficult situation passes, I am assuming the sati element was dropped.

My idea would be that intentionality(to-permanently-change-the-mind) + intelligent-consistent-effort + longevity-of-effort=not-self-experiences
and that not-self experiences are what actually does the healing/curing.

I want to reach a peak/critical-mass of mental health before attempting to share my findings.  This may occur through post-4th path developments.

The study I linked to was pretty broad. It just looked at religious/spiritual involvement in general and not meditation in particular.

The studies that look at meditation tend to use either TM or MBSR. They have to choose a common practice to get a large enough sample to draw quantitative conclusions. But common practices also tend to be lightweight practices (by DhO standards!).

Perhaps in the future people suffering from depression, bipolar, etc., will be able to go on three-month residential courses of intensive practice under medical supervision. Or perhaps not, and I'm just being idealistic!

Anyway, I think it's great that you've got such good results.

Interesting.  I guess religious activity outside of meditation would have different effects than meditation practice.  And what you described sounds like the dream, I don't think its too idealistic :p

My results are pretty good, but I don't want to overstate them yet.  I still feel pretty constricted by various phobias, etc.  I'll keep updated...

Noah - just wanted to drop my note of appreciation for your thread here.  You seem to be a bit further on than I am, but I am starting to encounter some of these nonduality/emptiness-in-daily-life experiences so this is helpful.

One question though [edited to change my question] - do you do any recollections on a regular basis?  i.e. recollection of the Buddha, metta towards oneself, 32 parts, recollection of death.  Or do you skip these preliminaries? 

I tend to use such recollections but am a bit conflicted about them. 

Hey Mike,

I haven't done any recollections practice in the past because I felt really agitated and impatient whenever I would try a technique that would 'fix' my mind in one place for an extended period.  Now I don't do them just because I have enough faith in vipassana-samatha, without necessarily adding in those extra structures.  Doesn't bar the possibility of taking them up in the future, of course.