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Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?

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Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? SeTyR ZeN 6/28/15 9:11 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/28/15 11:35 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Matt 6/28/15 11:47 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/29/15 12:33 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/29/15 12:56 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/29/15 1:28 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? . Jake . 6/29/15 9:13 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/29/15 5:28 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Eva Nie 6/29/15 7:09 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/29/15 10:09 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Caro 6/29/15 2:45 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Richard Zen 6/29/15 8:34 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Laurel Carrington 6/29/15 9:06 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Eva Nie 6/29/15 2:17 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? SeTyR ZeN 6/29/15 2:28 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Eva Nie 6/29/15 2:58 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 6/29/15 4:29 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Richard Zen 6/29/15 8:53 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Psi 6/29/15 11:30 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Noah 6/30/15 1:57 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? SeTyR ZeN 6/30/15 9:15 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 7/1/15 2:56 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Eva Nie 7/1/15 9:18 AM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 7/1/15 12:31 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Eva Nie 7/1/15 1:20 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? Richard Zen 7/1/15 1:38 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 7/1/15 4:56 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ 7/2/15 1:04 PM
RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? SeTyR ZeN 7/2/15 6:31 PM
Simply : -  Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? -

I'm very curious of the answer you might provide; I have been burning to ask the Dho since i started following the many daily posts on the forum; Nowhere, for now, have i read an answer to this question that matches my definition. Well i must admit some of the postings i read seem to reflects aspects of my definition, put nowhere have i read someone defining it as clearly as we define Emptiness for example; And still, "Love" is one of the most used word in here .  Can we have a common definition so we can all be more confident with what we and others mean when writing and debating using that word ?

Sounds boring maybe, but actually, i think it is one of the most important thing to do right now so all of us can settle down on many debates. (compassion, veganism etc etc etc .. you know what i mean)

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/28/15 11:35 PM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
I approach topics like this by accepting ambiguity, I would have about 12 fuzzy and nebulous definitions supported by examples. One example might be, "When you're willing to wipe that person's ass when they're sick and dying and can't wipe their own."

When you say ultimately, from my worldview, it's a hint your aiming for ground where there is no ground. I wouldn't try to nail down love like I would try to nail down a mathematical definition. I would fluidly use it, for example, loving someone conditionally, in the romantic sense, then agape love which is loving you for the sheer fact we're both manifestations of existence and that is enough for me, because one day we're all going to die, and we will never ever see the eachother once again, as if the magnitude that each moment there can be anything at all signifies the infinite probability it takes to make this this and thus is an insult to the miracle for anything less than unbounded love for it all.

From the usual romantic or friendship sense, love isn't finding the perfect person, love is seeing an imperfect person perfectly.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/28/15 11:47 PM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
I like Peck's definition: to extend yourself for the benefit of another’s spiritual growth.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 12:33 AM as a reply to Matt.
Yep, I'd use all those definitions. And then I'd use music to give examples. Most people have heard this song: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fahr069-fzE

That triggers immense tenderness in anyone who isn't literally a stone cold zombie. Is that love? I would say it's one flavor of the rainbow of possible loving expressions.

English only has one word for love and is still recovering from this sort of protestant reformation and European enlightenment that instills deep in our hearts and minds the wish for a nice tidy system with nice tidy definitions that glorifies God. But perhaps it's all God so we don't need to reach that intellectually far and can listen to this beautiful music instead! God that song never fails to make me tear up EVERY TIME. 

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 12:56 AM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
The different flavors of love:
Jazz Hip hop:  https://youtu.be/jdQYzEc6wYw
European Classical: https://youtu.be/hOA-2hl1Vbc
Anime music: https://youtu.be/0RO5XN8d63c

If these things don't elicit tender heartfelt feelings of love then you have no soul!

Semi-serious post to hone in on Love by bypassing intellectual definitions and aiming right at the heart chakra.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 1:28 AM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
Love as compassionate longing, a poem by Bob Dylan on Woodie Guthrie: https://youtu.be/Q0OdNY8Aybw


RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 8:34 AM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
Oxytocin. The motivation behind it is group survival (which includes individual survival). It extends from romantic love all the way to love of community or country. It involves caring for people beyond a short-term self-interest (though there is a long-term self interest involved - survival of the community/group/country). People often get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling when in this mode.

There are other good definitions for romantic love in that a person finally lets go of infatuation (objectifying the other person, "what's in it for me, etc"), and moves into wanting the partner to be happy and actively bolstering their happiness. The book "The Good Marriage" understands that strong marriages often pursue "we" and "us" goals where as weaker ones have too much conflicting "me" goals.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 9:06 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'd say loving another ideally does not involve craving or clinging. This is a tall order in the case of one's parent, child, or sexual partner. Love for one's parent all too often carries with it a lot of baggage and conflicting emotions. I don't want my mother to die because she is my last link with my infancy. That's clinging. I also have found her miserably annoying plenty of times over the years. One day five years ago I was ready to explode with aggravation, and suddenly I saw her as a little old lady, fragile and impermanent, and I felt a wave of compassion for her. But how much guilt or clinging was wrapped into the compassion?

Love for a child is wonderful, because parents give care to their children while they are incapable of caring for themselves, and the feeling inspiring such care is overwhelming tenderness. There is also a desire to see the child fulfill the parents' expectations, however, and pride when the child does so. There is also a desire for the child to love the parent in return, and a feeling of outrage when said child shows disrespect (after all I've done for you!). Intimate partners; lets see: there's craving, clinging, aversion, delusions--all of the above. 

There's the added question of what love for others is when all phenomena, including self, are empty of essence. What is it we are loving? There seems to be nothing but confusion on all sides. We, who are empty, love others, likewise empty, in a drive to hold ourselves together at some level and believe in the story of ourselves. I still can't figure that one out.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 9:13 AM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
I luv Nujabes lately. Good luv music. The opening track on Spiritual States reminds me of childhood for some reason. Or me as a child. Something like that. Freshness and innocence tinged with ambiguity and poignancy.

On love: I'm with you Ryan, there are a million meanings for this word.

Personally, my take, is that love is appreciation and respect for the being of a being. It's about seeing something/someone as they are and seeing that in a light of perfection, completeness, like a many-faceted jewel. Then in my experience I mix in other things-- attachment, aversion, ignorance-- and distort that pristine love. Part of The Work of life for me is to work with this stuff and see where clinging and aversion especially are interfering with my ability to love. Love itself is not possessive or demanding. Love itself is unconditional. I put all sorts of conditions on whether or not I feel it in relation to someone in any given moment, but fundamentally that is not to do with them so much as with me.

The more awake and mature I am the easier it is to love freely without possessiveness or aversion, without needing to divide someone up into qualities I like and dislike and am indifferent to and wishing to maximize their manifestations of the first and minimize the second and third. I look at this as a very concrete test for where I am at on the path. It's pretty sobering how challenging it is.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 2:17 PM as a reply to Laurel Carrington.
Laurel Carrington:
I'd say loving another ideally does not involve craving or clinging. This is a tall order in the case of one's parent, child, or sexual partner.
Yes, I would agree, a key component is you do it without, desire, espectation, pride, or need, either consciously or unconsciously, of anything in return.  It is given without strings attached.  I also agree, it's a tall order.  I think in most cases, love is not given totally purely in that way. As for types of love, romantic or whatever, I think they are all various incomplete forms of pure love.  I think sometimes dharma teachers use the word 'benevolence' instead of the word 'love ' which may help get around some of the baggage and confusion that the word 'love' tends to carry.  
-Eva 

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 2:28 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ  thank you for your replies, but you are off topic, i am sorru; Please re-read my question carefully

Eva, Laurel and Matthew, thank you too for your replies;

Matthew , i am very very close to your point

Laurel , i think you are hovering around it

Eva, i'd have picked the same exact sentence as Laurel, but not much more

Richard, is it really ultimately Oxytocin ? let me think about my answer to you ;

I'll be back later on , i got to go do some important stuff emoticon

Thanks all ;  Anyone else is welcome in posting their definition , so please, do not refrain ;)

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 2:45 PM as a reply to Matt.
I like Peck`s definition as well.

As for some additional food for thought: there is a quote by Thich Nhat Hanh "love is understanding" and a fascinating New York Time`s article of a psychological experiment where two strangers ask themselves 36 increasingly personal questions with the result of falling in love:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/fashion/modern-love-to-fall-in-love-with-anyone-do-this.html?_r=0

So love indeed seems to be a deliberate act to some extent and not just something that happens...

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
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6/29/15 2:58 PM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
So are you going to rate the board's ability to ferret out your personal definition?  Did we get a passing grade or will you give us remedial reading with a pop quiz on Tuesday?  ;-P

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 4:29 PM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
Am I? My posts were a roundabout way of rejecting the question as the wrong approach. That is: If we can get to the bottom of what exactly it means to love the other, we can have greater civility and peace.

I reject the attempt entirely because reality is too complex and ambiguous for such certainty. It would be like definitively answering what Truth is. Rather, we should admit our cognitive limitations and tolerate ambiguity and say, "Love kinda looks like this and that, but ultimately, it's hard to say what exactly it is, what exactly it looks like, and what behavioral manifestations it takes."

You can't walk 2 inches on the DhO without finding contradictory information, contradictory definitions, nothing makes sense, its pure chaos, and a perfect place from which to meditate! Finding common clear-cut definitions of truth and love are the last things I would ever attempt.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 5:28 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
Nice, I'm at the tail end of my second Nujabes obsession. Before this rant I want to emphasize I'm pro-Universal Love with a capital L. So don't take away the notion I'm against the more loftier notions of Love, but cautious about the narratives that surround Love.

To expand on what I mean by many expressions of love, I'll use Nujabes as an example. I'll guess that Nujabes wasn't awakened, and yet he clearly loved music and that that love is received by us in that his music has the magical power to open up a person's heart chakra and ever so slightly mutate the self in such a way that it is more wholesome, probably. Thus, in subtle ways, Nujabes is capable of loving us, sentient beings, through the medium of his love for music. Loving other sentient beings in non-direct ways.

Then on the other extreme you have countless gurus with deep insight who speak endlessly about universal love and yet their behavior is the anti-thesis of love: bullies and sociopathic behavior. Behind the facade of their beautifc smiles and platitudinous language is a true monster whom you 'd be wise to not cross paths with. (Unfortunately, most people don't have the training to identify Cluster B personalities and what emotional hangups they have inside themselves that facilitate and encourage Cluster B behavior.)

And yet I don't doubt many of these monsters have deep insight: not identified with their personalities, but gargantuan personalities nonetheless.

And then you have these narratives of universal love is so pure, conditional love is bad, which to me is ironic because often in these narratives is a hatred of personality, hatred of desire. Cloaked in the very narrative of universal love is hatred for certain aspects of experience and manifestations of life. Countless examples of abuse of gurus and their perfect love is a testament to how certain narratives of universal love can help cloak darkness.

That being said, not a day goes by that I don't cultivate loftier notions of Love with a capital-L in myself. I submit my post history as evidence to the jury that is the public DhO that I cultivate wholesome qualities, done in service of capital L love. I'm simply saying that it's easy to get caught up in lofty ideals that can have shadowsides that brainwash us into hating loving life. Hating what should just be, which then turns into an aversion so deep it may never reach awareness that is only detectable in behavior. (He's a bully? Well clearly that's just his enlightened crazy wisdom, young grasshoppah) I feel Richard Zen does a good job on explaining the practical steps to avoiding this.

Again, I'm all for pure love, but a recurring theme with me for some time has been the power of narrative, which becomes super powerful when you pair it with a lot of meditation. Narratives are more powerful than swords. Which I why I am hesitant to say love is x, y, and z with certainty.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 7:09 PM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ:
Countless examples of abuse of gurus and their perfect love is a testament to how certain narratives of universal love can help cloak darkness.
Yes, I do agree the concept is abused when gurus ask followers to give unconditional love when they are not giving it themselves.  And example, "if you love me, you will give me lots of money, etc for the greater good of humanity and not question how I use it, etc.."  Notice that the guru asks it of others but does the opposite him/herself.  Watch out for those!  Pure love can certainly be abused if you check your brain cells at the door, but so can a lot of things.  Any tool or concept can be abused if not taken with common sense and applied equally.  Also, just because you love purely does not mean that you become spineless and give away all your assets or somesuch.  Ryan, I would say that my narrative about pure love diverges quite a bit from yours..  ;-P 
That being said, not a day goes by that I don't cultivate loftier notions of Love with a capital-L in myself. I submit my post history as evidence to the jury that is the public DhO that I cultivate wholesome qualities, done in service of capital L love. I'm simply saying that it's easy to get caught up in lofty ideals that can have shadowsides that brainwash us into hating loving life.
I do think you can recognize room for growth in self without hating your current self.  Yes, it is tricky, but I think also needed for growth to learn to love and respect self even including imperfections.  Like if you buy a new house, it may need some upgrades but you don't hate it currently, you still appreciate it now as well as appreciating its potential.  I do agree that if you have an image of perfection that is not centered with current benevolence towards self as not being that perfection, yes, result can be shadow side.  But in the end, I have to fall back on what I think is truth more than anything.  I think I would rather look for truth even if there are potential pitfalls because I think being afraid of truth likely has even more pitfalls. 
Again, I'm all for pure love, but a recurring theme with me for some time has been the power of narrative, which becomes super powerful when you pair it with a lot of meditation. Narratives are more powerful than swords. Which I why I am hesitant to say love is x, y, and z with certainty.
I do agree, the power of what you tell yourself, the scripts in your head, aka narrative, is incredibly powerful as to how your life will unfold. 
-Eva

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 8:53 PM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
SeTyR ZeN:

Richard, is it really ultimately Oxytocin ? let me think about my answer to you ;

Just remember we are hard-wired for survival. All chemicals in our brain and motivations are about survival and procreation and one of the mammalian traits is compassion which allows for group surivival.  Compassion feels good. If it didn't feel good it wouldn't be in us. A lot of our ancestors couldn't surivive if it wasn't for a compassionate person or person(s) helping us. There's also the knowledge that when one person needs help, the person helping knows they will need help sooner or later. I think compassion is less hypocritical, but still involves self-interest. Compassion is also a good way to ward off envy if you've achieved some major success.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
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6/29/15 10:09 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Nice post,

"Ryan, I would say that my narrative about pure love diverges quite a bit from yours..  ;-P "

Probably, as my brain had time to compute the information in this topic and process it, I was left with the impression it's going to do a lot of evolutions and mutations and so it's further something I look at and really can't say much on, except that while many fall into the wisdom/compassion camp I jokingly say I fall into the wisdom/love camp. I'm quite serious about Love with a capital L! This is going to take awhile for the process to unfold and explain myself clearly. Thankfully I'm feeling rather patient as of late.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/29/15 11:30 PM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
SeTyR ZeN:
Simply : -  Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ? -

Love, I would say , is an open emanating sensation in the chest area.  That sensation, which can be developed and maintained as a quality drives the behaviors of Love.  Kind of like a Motor, idling.  But, without the sensation emanating first, there are no true loving actions or thoughts.

That is as simple as I can put it.  Experiences may vary amongst individuals.

Psi

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
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6/30/15 1:57 AM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
Love=conditional love+unconditional love, for the same being, at the same time

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
6/30/15 9:15 PM as a reply to Noah.
Hi again, thank you all for your answers ; I'm honored emoticon

Well, i'm not quite good at debating in English, and don't have enough time either theses coming days, i will let the Buddhist, Mahayana branch  answer from the mouth of an actual envoyee and expert on the matter, thousands public lectures under her belt , about that point ; 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWwwPUebAqU from the start ; (i generaly skip the opening chanting part but if you like it, just enjoy ^^)

or directly to the meat (:p ) .. 25min later emoticon -> https://youtu.be/jWwwPUebAqU?t=25m1s

For thoses who can meditate 2h in a row or post 10 times a day but don't have enough time to watch a video that matters (to the subject), at least simply for their personal culture, here is a one sentence spoiler :  According to Buddhism psychology, the simple and clear definition is  "Love is the wish for another (sentient) to be happy"

Now Please watch that video , and come back and tell me where this sentence has a flaw ? (if it has one.. i've been pondering it for 2 or three years now maybe .. couldn't find a single contradiction in my everydays past and actual experience and retrospective in life .. on the opposite, i found numerous action, views, speech wich was not love . and thats great!)

Richard, ultimately, i think it is the first reaction to oxytocin withdrawal ..  just which from the egg .. but we agree we do, just kidding emoticon
Thank you Psi, i agree to the physical and emotional description , as did Richard , thank you everyone else again for adding to my selfish lecture pleasure ;)

Laurel : Your post speaks experiences, you know Love, thank you again for sharing  emoticon

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
7/1/15 2:56 AM as a reply to SeTyR ZeN.
It's nice to hear a charasmatic teacher, in the video. I too, do not want to debate. I like the definition, I wouldn't reject it for having contextual limitations (Although I can find counter examples like wishing for a sociopath to be happy and what that means for the victims of that sociopath, (so should I love the sociopath and wish them to be happy as violent people or not love them? Or expand the possibilities of what it means to love?) again, I don't want to debate.) I'll leave a quote by someone else who says what I mean. Which is to say, I accept your definition of love, and everyone else's definitions of love in this topic, I love them all. I love all of you!

“Sanskrit has ninety-six words for love; ancient Persian has eighty, Greek three, and English only one.  This is indicative of the poverty of awareness or emphasis that we give to that tremendously important realm of feeling. Eskimos have thirty words for snow, because it is a life-and death matter to them to have exact information about the element they live with so intimately.  If we had a vocabulary of thirty words for love ... we would immediately be richer and more intelligent in this human element so close to our heart.  An Eskimo probably would die of clumsiness if he had only one word for snow; we are close to dying of loneliness because we have only one word for love.  Of all the Western languages, English may be the most lacking when it come to feeling.” - Robert Johnson, Fisher King, p. 6

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
7/1/15 9:18 AM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ:
It's nice to hear a charasmatic teacher, in the video. I too, do not want to debate. I like the definition, I wouldn't reject it for having contextual limitations (Although I can find counter examples like wishing for a sociopath to be happy and what that means for the victims of that sociopath, (so should I love the sociopath and wish them to be happy as violent people or not love them? Or expand the possibilities of what it means to love?) again, I don't want to debate.)
One might think of them finding a more lasting kind of happiness, instead the brief twisted kind (temporary, unsatisfactory) that they get from their crimes.  ;-P
-Eva

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
7/1/15 12:31 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
I've thought about it, I have the ability to force myself to feel that way, but in my heart of hearts, after being on the receiving end of them and learning in great detail how they work, how they treat others, and general psychological learning, I do not believe that will happen, ever. Quite appropriately, that is called wishful thinking. for me to pretend it to be any other way would be to lie to myself, a form of not loving and respecting myself. Rather, I cultivate compassion and equanimity with regards to them, or rather, those two qualities naturally arise via instinct having spent many hours of forgiveness. Compassion for their condition and equanimity because I cannot do anything about it.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
7/1/15 1:20 PM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ:
I've thought about it, I have the ability to force myself to feel that way, but in my heart of hearts, after being on the receiving end of them and learning in great detail how they work, how they treat others, and general psychological learning, I do not believe that will happen, ever. Quite appropriately, that is called wishful thinking. for me to pretend it to be any other way would be to lie to myself, a form of not loving and respecting myself. Rather, I cultivate compassion and equanimity with regards to them, or rather, those two qualities naturally arise via instinct having spent many hours of forgiveness. Compassion for their condition and equanimity because I cannot do anything about it.
I think that is why you need a lot of lifetimes, learning is too slow for just one.  People like that have a long road still ahead.  Maybe long ago in the process, I was also a sociopath.  Maybe that's part of the evolution.  Not saying I know for sure, but I do think about it sometimes. 
-Eva

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
7/1/15 1:38 PM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ:
I've thought about it, I have the ability to force myself to feel that way, but in my heart of hearts, after being on the receiving end of them and learning in great detail how they work, how they treat others, and general psychological learning, I do not believe that will happen, ever. Quite appropriately, that is called wishful thinking. for me to pretend it to be any other way would be to lie to myself, a form of not loving and respecting myself. Rather, I cultivate compassion and equanimity with regards to them, or rather, those two qualities naturally arise via instinct having spent many hours of forgiveness. Compassion for their condition and equanimity because I cannot do anything about it.

You might want to look at compassionate wrath:

https://www.atpweb.org/pdf/masters.pdf

It's also important to look at compassion for the sociopath not in the sense of acting it out but in the sense that they aren't living in your mind. Bullies and psychos can torment you without even being there. Just thinking about them and what they do and especially imagining them get in the way of your goals will cause stressful rumination. Wishing they weren't insane allows you to avoid over-forgiving but at the same time they don't take up tons of space in your mind. Practice giving the brahmaviharas to victims and possible future victims but also practice imagining the perpetrators failing at their attempts to hurt people and being found out.

You can be creative with this stuff. You don't have to stick to overly rigid formulas.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
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7/1/15 4:56 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I like those ideas. I'm not at all affected by sociopaths anymore. Long ago I had a dream where I forgave the one that most affected me personally, I've run into him since then, and was basically, 'whatever'. I've learned the lessons and take appropriate action now.

I've personally tossed out the heavenly abodes and replaced it with what I call the heavenly symphony, which means it's far more open and playful and less mechanical and prescriptive like the standard Salzberg versions. I imagine everyone has particular tastes for their heart chakra. Its meant to honor creativity, play, personal taste for positive mind states, individuality, and effortlessness. Trivially, it's a narrative repackaging of Shinzen's nurture positive. I don't go into those here because I'm still experimenting and want innocence of not having other ideas influencing me, actually.

As far as dealing with sociopaths it seems just having spent time forgiving and just learning how they operate by intellectual study has brought a sort of peace with it, like my mind knows intuitively it is foolish to be angry or whatever.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
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7/2/15 1:04 PM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
Reading thris forum while under wildly different mind states is a very interesting experience. If I'm feeling defensive and irritated I become far more judgemental and want to just destroy certain posts with overwhelming rhetorical force.

But then on the other extreme, which I'm feeling now, which is impossible to describe, is this extremely beautiful tenderness, it's like, I read a post and I get the sense that that person is posting because they are offering, their offering is caring, they care so God dammed much they express themselves, with the offering of their accumulated insights. Like they're just so dammed beautiful and its recognized in this caring, and that caring registers with me and I find their notion so beautiful it's overwhelming, and in that moment I care about them, I wish to know about them, in an unconditional friendship kind of way, crewmemebers of this ship as we sail from nowhere to nowhere in life, confused by being summoned here without our being asked. In this moment I am confirmed that one aspect of the many faceted jewel we call Love is caring. I care about your well-being, and if I could take action to ensure that wellbeing I would.

Love is caring with all your heart, your whole being, and the action that follows. Love with intelligence is caring so God dammed fucking much you go learn engineering and mathematics to build cheap solar panels so the planet doesn't explode and we all die and all the plants die and fish and animals rot in a sea of acid. Love is caring so God dammed fucking much you realize the prison of certain social institutions that you fight your whole life for gays to marry, because you fucking care. Love is working to put food on the table for your kids, because you fucking love them. Love is giving your excess money that you can so someone can receive medical care when they would otherwise die a brutal and undignified death.

Love is caring. Love with intelligent action makes the world a better place. Love plus intelligence is the only thing that will save us from the impending potential technological catastrophes that looms at our doorstep. The irritable, unawakened, never meditating poor social skilled nerds who dress poorly, have bad posture, and spend too much God dammed time thinking, who care about Earth are going to save us. Because they care.

RE: Ultimately, what is it to Love a sentient being ?
Answer
7/2/15 6:31 PM as a reply to The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ.
Hi The Poster Formerly Known as RyanJ ;

Now you 're talking straigth to the heart emoticon 

and now that you speak about it (but we are deviating from the original thread subject .. but nevermind on this one ! emoticon ) ,yes ,  triple yes!  emoticon  "Love plus intelligence "   , yup, totally ok with that ! and all "buddhists" are ok with you on that : Wisdom and Compassion , yup !  Without exactly those two wings, you can't fly in this world  !

Raise up your heads .. yep .. have a nice full moon people ! ;)