Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 7:03 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 7:01 AM

Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
In the new issue of 'mindful' magazine (August 2015 issue, on the stands since beginning of July – how's that for being in the present?) :

(p.13)
"A Turning Point For Pain Treatment

In March 2015, The University of Kansas Hospital implemented an in-patient program with Turning Point, the Center for Hope and Healing, offering free mindfulness training to patients experiencing severe pain due to illness or health problems. This is the first in-patient program for Turning Point, a Kanasas-based organization that usually offers out-patient services and workshops to people suffering from severe and chronic physical illness.
So far, the hospital reports substantial improvements to patients' ratings of how well their pain was treated at the hospital."

It would appear these folks have gotten little further than we here in DhO in numerous threads on the topic. Most of the report is about the institutional sponsors. The conclusion also is couched in terms of institutional self-gratification.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 7:38 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 7:32 AM

RE: Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Good morning, Chris,
It would appear these folks have gotten little further than we here in DhO in numerous threads on the topic. Most of the report is about the institutional sponsors. The conclusion also is couched in terms of institutional self-gratification.

How much further should DhO and University of Kansas Hospital be in understanding that placing attention on the pain can reduce the pain perception (unless someone is deliberately applying pain to another-- I think studies show that deliberate pain infliction (cruelty) increases pain perception -- an intuive result).

You may like Case Western Reserve's work in yoga-based practices and yoga breathing meditation (pranayama) in pain abatement, too, by searching these key words in NIH.

Interestingly, there were two TED talks that came to my email this week: One was about how Portugual radically reduced its drug crime and drug addiction by legalising all drugs and putting the policing/imprisoning monies into job creation, therapies, and reconnecting addicts with their friends and family in care (Johann Hari: Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong").

And then the most popular TEDTalk of all TEDtalks ("Are schools killing creativity"), well, he just put out a book, "Creative Schools: The Grassroots Revolution That's Transforming Education," (Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/ken-robinson-education-should-be-like-farming-not-manufacturing-2015-7#ixzz3faJgKyWZ) the essence of which is
If we want to transform the failing model, we need a new analogy for how that model is supposed to work, Robinson argues. We treat education like industrial manufacturing when, in reality, it's closer to organic farming. In farming, crop has different needs at different times in order to produce the greatest yield. Why not apply the process to education? Robinson distills his solution of so-called "organic education" into four key principles:

Health
: Promoting the development and well-being of the whole student, intellectually, physically, spiritually, and socially.

Ecology
: Recognizing the vital interdependence of all of these aspects of development, within each student and the community as a whole.

Fairness
: Cultivating the individual talents and potential of all students, whatever their circumstances and respects the roles and responsibilities of those who work with them.

Care
: Creating optimum conditions for students' development, based on compassion, experience, and practical wisdom.


Read more:  http://www.businessinsider.com/ken-robinson-education-should-be-like-farming-not-manufacturing-2015-7#ixzz3faJrO4Ff

And so I was looking at how solutions to both inner pain (self: mental and physical) and outer pain (pain with others) are now revolving around connecting directly and with care.

(Matthieu Richard last month was emphasizing in a news interview that corporate mindfulness programs just need to be sure that they contain care, else they get merely concentrated people, which can make quite harmful outcomes).

And then even the Pope went this week to Bolivia's worst prison and encouraged care
 in response to their despair and corruption: "Don't be afraid to help one another," he said. "The devil is looking for rivalry, division, gangs." http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/10/world/americas/ap-lt-pope-south-america.html

I woke up this morning on the wrong side of sunny, inexplicable dread (above: inner pain), and just to water the plants was correct; here was already the sunnyside of the day: care. Received a few lovely emails: Ah-ha, care. Sent a few caring emails. Ah-ha. 

(Further examples, Chuck Feeney felt the discomfort/mental pain of his business's opulence in a suffering world and went on to anonymously found Atlantic Philanthropies, winding down next year, I think, and he is credited directly by Warren Buffett and Bill Gates as inspiring their "giving while living").


So what is further? U. Kansas hospital offering free mindfulness training to people with pain seems to me both caring and practical. I'm glad they cared to share the results, even if it was self-advertising (compassion for hospital staffs in a competition to differentiate themselves in a highly competitive over-populated, lean market now...).


edits: des typoes and syntax
 
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 5:07 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/11/15 5:07 PM

RE: Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
katy steger:

Interestingly, there were two TED talks that came to my email this week: One was about how Portugual radically reduced its drug crime and drug addiction by legalising all drugs and putting the policing/imprisoning monies into job creation, therapies, and reconnecting addicts with their friends and family in care (Johann Hari: Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong").
I was reading many years ago, Britain did something similar with one of it's notoriously crime and drug ridden port towns with similar positive results except they put less money into it.  What they did was give away free drugs of choice to any who came to the hospitals asking for it. Most addictive drugs are cheap to manufacture, it's their black market status that adds to the cost.  So they gave away free drugs, which were of course pure and of good quality, and in exchange, the askers need only attend one hour a week of therapy.  End result, drug dealers left town because there was no money in it and new drug addiction dropped and crime dropped.  Drug users no longer needed to steal or do illegal things to get money for drugs, they could get it for free.  Drug sellers had no reason to fight over now useless territories and their efforts to addict new victims also were abandoned.  Current users all had access to therapy and a higher percentage were able to get off the drugs.  Why didn't Britain adopt the new strategy on a wider scale?  Public opinion just could not support the idea of it even though it had worked better.  Urge for judging others and lack of willingness to change opinions can be quite strong apparently.  But does seem like these ideas are starting to take hold slowly as the years pass.
-Eva 

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CJMacie, modified 8 Years ago at 7/12/15 6:24 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/12/15 5:26 AM

RE: Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

Posts: 856 Join Date: 8/17/14 Recent Posts
katy steger:

How much further should DhO and University of Kansas Hospital be in understanding that placing attention on the pain can reduce the pain perception (unless someone is deliberately applying pain to another-- I think studies show that deliberate pain infliction (cruelty) increases pain perception -- an intuive result).
...
So what is further? U. Kansas hospital offering free mindfulness training to people with pain seems to me both caring and practical. I'm glad they cared to share the results, even if it was self-advertising (compassion for hospital staffs in a competition to differentiate themselves in a highly competitive over-populated, lean market now...).


The original motivation for citing that news item, that got forgotten and/or side-tracked by my cynicism as to the institutional issues (and the mindfulness-bandwagon effect) – apologies for that noise -- was:

What concrete evidence and/or explanations do we really have that the quality or manner of mental attention (mindfulness) substantially affects the effects of pain? That we can practice pragmatically? (How many here experience pain, acute or chronic, occasionally or often?) Many here have participated in threads discussing pain, often starting with posters' complaints of their own pain. I, for one, noticed little in the way of practical conclusions in those discussions – though I may have missed something.

It has been demonstrated (and I, for one, have experienced) that:
a) concentrative absorption (e.g.classical 4th jhana) can suppress (temporarily inhibit the experience of) pain;
b) momentary / khanika concentration can repress pain – push it into the background with the intensity of elsewhere directed attention. – e.g. the concentration of a musician, a brain surgeon, of someone dealing with dire emergency, perhaps advanced hardcore vipassana practices.

Further evidence for case (a): Than-Geof (whose anecdotal information is probably reliable) relates that some monk with advanced attainments once underwent major surgery using, instead of anesthesia, his own ability to enter deep absorption for an exactly determined period of time (that's the 3rd of the classical/Visudhimagga 'masteries' of concentration). The surgery took longer than expected; the monk came to conscousness, inquired how much longer it would take, and promptly re-absorbed for the duration.

But advanced concentration skills are beyond what introductory mindfulness / meditation training is going to afford medical patients.

Then there are more grey (gray?) areas:
Can intensely cultivated piti (concentrative rapture) experiences – which are known to physcially invigorate, generate healing energy – be systematically used medically?
Can meditative / mindfulness feedback mechanisms effecting the modulation of endorphins or other sorts of endogenous chemical neurotransmitters (the body's own pharmaceuticals) be invoked reliably?
Can cultivated mental / emotional lls, likewise systematically and reliably, modulate attention and perception to substantially alter the effects of pain?

There've been umptine studies, trials "suggesting" various such possibilities.

Where's the beef?*

(If anything significant has been found that truly works, wouldn't it have already been put into applied practice, big time?)

* For those not old enough to have seen it, there was, decades ago, a famous TV ad (maybe it was for Wendy's hamburger chain) featuring a feisty little old lady, poking around in her BigMac or whatever, protesting "Where's the beef?"
C P M, modified 8 Years ago at 7/12/15 11:47 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/12/15 11:45 AM

RE: Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

Posts: 218 Join Date: 5/23/13 Recent Posts
Hi Chris

I do find this subject interesting. Watching the video you posted of Thích Quảng Đức in another thread:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5710696

He doesn't appear to express any outward sign of pain during his self immolation.

Four years ago I broke my ankle.  At the time I had been meditating daily for a while and wanted to continue with my practice.  I have an aversion to taking pain killers and I wasn't too uncomfortable with the pain during daily activity.  But when I sat in a chair to meditate, the pain of my ankle was brought to the forefront of my attention in a very distracting way.  I “just couldn’t do it”, I couldn’t sit with the ankle pain, even though I tried a number of different times, I eventually just gave up meditating for a couple of months.

A big part of the problem was my ignorance of proper meditation technique.   I had been sitting regularly with goal of quieting the mind, with some success.  It seemed that sitting with my pain had the opposite effect of quieting my mind. At the time I didn't know any better, and didn't recognize this as an excellent training opportunity.

re: "Wheres the beef".  Heh, that commercial is over 30 years old now. 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/bp/inside-story-wendy-where-beef-ad-30-years-004259251.html
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 8 Years ago at 7/15/15 4:38 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/15/15 4:36 PM

RE: Revisiting mindfulness vs pain

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hey, Chris,

Did you have a chance to look at Case Western Reserve's fairly recent work on pranayama (slow, deep breathing) and pain perception? Googly the NIH to find...

Chris:
What concrete evidence and/or explanations do we really have that the quality or manner of mental attention (mindfulness) substantially affects the effects of pain? That we can practice pragmatically? (How many here experience pain, acute or chronic, occasionally or often?)


Have you looked for a review paper on what has been studied (nudge, nudge.. maybe you, a fine footnoter yourself could undertake and perhaps with a Cochrane review dive?)


Chris:
Where's the beef?*

Personally, I don't think this is a case of 'all hat and no cattle' [1].
=)

People are working on this and have been for a long time. Was it in Healing and the Mind (circa your BK commercial...) in which Moyers reviewed some pain techniques, people getting brain and hand surgeries with just meditation? Did E. Kubler-Ross do work in this? Olde memory churning here...

___________
[1] Can people be required to reply with, but not for the purpose of, one new Westernism?

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