foundering, floundering and other F words

Darrell, modified 8 Years ago at 7/22/15 10:28 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/22/15 10:28 PM

foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 143 Join Date: 2/22/15 Recent Posts
A few weeks ago Noah (I believe) suggested the idea of an "action plan". Great idea, I'm still trying to get this into focus.

Meanwhile, I've realized I'm more or less rudderless. I feel lost. I meditate for an hour each night before bed. An hour as well, in the morning, when my daughter is in school. Otherwise, my reading - I have yet to finish a single text I've bought or downloaded. I listen to a fair amount of dhamma talks, although that has slowed down lately due to having less time alone. So what else happens 'off the cushion' so to speak? I'd been making a strong effort to practice mindfulness throughout the day, the focus on the body for the sake of the body in and of itself, setting aside greed and distress, etc. As well, there's been the effort to keep my attention centered in the moment, this very moment. The problem with this and mindfulness is that I tend to forget more than I remember to do these things. And there's making an effort to return my thoughts to impermanence, suffering/stress and not self.

The mindfulness and present moment attention, on their good days (which are less, rather than more) is that I can "get in front of my thoughts and reactions", which I think is the first layer of fabrication that Thanissaro Bhikkhu talks of. My hope is that if I kept at it, the number of days would increase, and the understanding and insight would deepen. Whether or not this is the case remains to be seen.

Whereas I started off with MCTB, I've left that aside instead because I was drawn first to the Eightfold Path, than, to the very start of this with the Four Noble Truths. It seems there's a consensus that believes that's the ticket right there. Even Mahasi Sayadaw has a writing about the EFP as the path to liberation (he used the word nibanna). So I've started digging in from that place.

I had scheduled a ten day retreat with the Goenka Vipassana in my state, but rescheduled for August due to a family situation. I can't even suppose what that might do for me and my practice.

Meanwhile, I feel like I'm stumbling around, never quite landing on any one thing, never being sure what is the right way to proceed. Every time I think I know what's right, something comes along to create doubt about what I thought was the right direction. I blame this, at least in part, to ignorance of the facts. Ignorance isn't bliss.

I know everyone has a more or less different practice, but is there such thing as a common reliable framework for practice, serious practice, to at least get a person into and through the insight knowledges? And from there, hopefully to stream entry? Every time I think I know what's what, something comes along to dig the hole deeper. The Eightfold Path? Even just understanding Right View is dense. Then I find there are realizations/insights of the Four Noble Truths that need to be gained. Four Noble Truths, EFP, the Three characteristics, five or more lay precepts. I understand this is not easy, that doesn't slow me down, I didn't expect americanized awakening, liberation while you wait, just go through the drive-through window. but does it have to be so freaking complex?

I'm tired of doubt and uncertainty, although I don't know how that can be avoided entirely, at least in the early stages. If there's a way to end it, I'm all for it. I'm tired of feeling lost and uncertain of what I'm doing. And I'm sure folks here are tired of my lamenting. sorry about that, it's been a long, hot, stressful and difficult summer. And I know it doesn't have to be that way (well, can't do much about the heat) but, yeah, the rest is a product of my own clinging. Surrender is simple, but not easy. That's been what's been getting beaten into me repeatedly recently. I could compose another entire thread about that, but never mind...
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Don Merchant, modified 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 3:44 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 3:42 AM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 202 Join Date: 6/9/15 Recent Posts
Darrell,

I know where you are at, been there, still there. lol. Simple thing I've been discovering is to just relax on the learning. Spend more time practicing. Then revisit the learning through media later. Things will make much more sense then too. Its the practical part of doing the practice that seems to make more stuff click for me. After I experience something I then go looking for an answer. Sure enough I find something, or close enough, to see what I am doing. Or not doing. I'm really deep into the not self stuff right now. Can't seem to finish this off. Ive got the impermanence thing and doesn't satisfy thing down pretty good. I'm just wrestling with the not self. I know I'm close but its still outside my reach.

My encouragement is NOT give up. It is a process that is dependent on many factors. Some of which are not under our control. But then again, nothing is anyhow.
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 5:10 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 5:10 AM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
howdy,
don's advice is good.  I would further suggest that you really try to lighten up on yourself.  you are striving.  its obvious you are committed. there a a million paths to the goal and you mention a couple (eightfoldpath, 4nobletruths).  understanding the conceptual frameworks and organization of the different schools of though is interesting and helpful but one can easily be lost in concerns over which is better, faster....

i reccomend that you take an easier, more marathon view of this.  read what interests you and let it soak in.  do your practice with a focus on calm and enjoyment in the moment instead of constantly keeping your eyes fixed on the prize.

i have done several retreats, solo and goenka.  definitely do it.  retreats bring incomparable progress. bring your realistic goals to it but leave your expectations at home.  there are some great tips about retreats here if you dig a bit.  (tarin's reformed slacker's guide comes to mind).

don't feel that you have to steer so much.  your commitment to awakening is palpable in your post.  look at it as more of a river than an ocean.  you will be carried along with your practice in whatever form interests you.   the rudderlessness is a phase.

cheers
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 6:59 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 6:59 AM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
In addition to Tom & Don''s advice (and along the lines of being nice to yourself), know that you are allowed to suffer on this path.  You are allowed to writhe around, feel dismay, obsess about the search, etc.  This may or may not be a side-effect of a nana (i.e. 3 C's or nanas 6 through 10).  Regardless, it is part of your sadhana, your spiritual struggle.  Acknowledging the validity of this struggle might help.  Can you also throw in several grains of salt with your tongue in your cheek?  Compassion+validation+humor/perspective while still struggling with the search sounds like a pretty good set-up.  Easier said than done of course....
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Ian And, modified 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 3:53 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 1:20 PM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Darrell:

Meanwhile, I've realized I'm more or less rudderless. I feel lost. I meditate for an hour each night before bed. An hour as well, in the morning, when my daughter is in school. Otherwise, my reading - I have yet to finish a single text I've bought or downloaded. I listen to a fair amount of dhamma talks, although that has slowed down lately due to having less time alone.

Begin where you are. Do not allow past performance or future expectation to influence you. Start with the here and now of your practice and learn to just simply stay in the present moment. Pick out something that you started to read that you have some interest in, and read it to the end without any expectation of gain, yet only seeking to learn or to see more insightfully into the material. Stay focused on one thing until you finish it.

By taking small steps along the path, you begin to sense momentum toward accomplishing your ultimate goal. Be content with taking small steps at first. After you have finished one self-assigned project, then you can look back and see what you have accomplished and have a moment of reflection about how far you have come. 

Darrell:
The mindfulness and present moment attention, on their good days (which are less, rather than more) is that I can "get in front of my thoughts and reactions", which I think is the first layer of fabrication that Thanissaro Bhikkhu talks of. My hope is that if I kept at it, the number of days would increase, and the understanding and insight would deepen. Whether or not this is the case remains to be seen.

Getting "in front of your thoughts and reactions" can take time because it requires the development (cultivation) of mindfulness. Mindfulness can take some time to fully develop. Do not let your failures at this endeavor become a discouragement. Just keep taking one step after another, and realize that this, at times, can become mundane, but that it doesn't need to be if you bring mindfulness to the fore. Pretty soon you will be able to turn around and look back at the distance you have travelled down the path. Be grateful for small victories! The path for many people (if not all) is a gradual path. Rejoice in that knowledge and do not relent in the pursuit of your goal.

Darrell:
Whereas I started off with MCTB, I've left that aside instead because I was drawn first to the Eightfold Path, than, to the very start of this with the Four Noble Truths. It seems there's a consensus that believes that's the ticket right there. Even Mahasi Sayadaw has a writing about the EFP as the path to liberation (he used the word nibanna). So I've started digging in from that place.

Aahh. This is a good place to begin. At the beginning. Find out what the Master said and taught. Do you agree or disagree with what he said. If you agree, seek to understand that in greater detail so that you can begin to see instances of this within your own life's experience. This will provide you with the confidence to continue on down the path. It will begin to remove doubt from your mind. A small victory is considered progress. Rejoice in that knowledge.

Darrell:
Meanwhile, I feel like I'm stumbling around, never quite landing on any one thing, never being sure what is the right way to proceed. Every time I think I know what's right, something comes along to create doubt about what I thought was the right direction. I blame this, at least in part, to ignorance of the facts. Ignorance isn't bliss.

I know everyone has a more or less different practice, but is there such thing as a common reliable framework for practice, serious practice, to at least get a person into and through the insight knowledges? And from there, hopefully to stream entry?

The right way to proceed is from wherever your are in this moment. Nothing more nor nothing less can be expected of a man but to begin where he is at in any given moment. There is no "right way"; there is only your way, the way that works for you personally. Pursue one thing at a time and eventually you will conquer all things. The way to be is to do that which is in front of you, consuming your interest to its utmost.

As for a framework for practice, you may wish to begin by reading a sutta (discourse of the Buddha) each day or to focus on one for several days until you come to understand what it is teaching. If you can commit yourself to this, it will provide you with a structure to your daily practice. If you do this once a day for thirty (30) days, you will be able to look back at the end of that time and reflect on the journey you have travelled down the path. Also, it will instill a sense of accomplishment in you which will assist you in continuing down the path, providing momentum. Not to mention sitting at the feet of the Master, endeavoring to understand everything he taught through his recorded discourses. You will eventually begin to see his teaching in a whole new light. This is when things can become exciting. Because you are beginning to connect the dots to the puzzle that is yourself!

Darrell:
Every time I think I know what's what, something comes along to dig the hole deeper. The Eightfold Path? Even just understanding Right View is dense. Then I find there are realizations/insights of the Four Noble Truths that need to be gained. Four Noble Truths, EFP, the Three characteristics, five or more lay precepts. I understand this is not easy, that doesn't slow me down, ...

Aahh. The entrance of Maya. The deceiver! You must learn to ignore the Deceiver, and to persist in pursuit of the path. Right View is a good place to start in your discovery of the path that Gotama taught. It is not so dense as you may perceive, however it can be challenging to maintain.

There is an interview in the now defunct magazine "What Is Enlightenment" that interviewer Simeon Alev was once conducted with Buddhist scholar Peter Masefield about his book Divine Revelation in Pali Buddhism in which he talks about the relevancy of Right View to the whole of the path. It was quite extraordinary when I first read it over a decade ago, containing may insights that I used to guide my own practice at that time.  It appears that a link to the interview is not to be found as the magazine that hosted it is no longer being published. But here is a paragraph from the interview (which I saved in hard copy printing it out) that I will type out for you. You may be able to find the whole interview if you do an Internet search for it, preserved on someone else's website.

WIE: In your book you also discuss at great length the significance of "right view." What is the role of right view in your understanding of the Eightfold Path of the Buddha's teaching, and how exactly does one acquire it?

PM:  As I understand it, and according to all of the textual definitions of right view, it's seeing things as they really are, seeing nibbana, seeing the Four Noble Truths -- not just understanding them as a set of logical propositions but actually experiencing them, and also experiencing and witnessing the fact of impermanence. All of these things are subsumed under the one item of right view.

And right view seems to be a prerequisite for the second step on the path, which is sometimes translated as "right thought" or "right resolve," but which is properly defined as "right renunciation." As a result of achieving right view, you renounce those things to which you were hitherto attached because you've seen through the myth, the sham, of worldly life. And once you've renounced these former attachments and attractions, then of course it's much easier to go on to perform right speech, action and livelihood. Then, having consolidated your morality, you can go on to perfect right effort, mindfulness and concentration; otherwise, there are a lot of hindrances to meditation caused by various aspects of immorality due to which the mind won't settle down because it's agitated by either conscience or by desires. So this seems to be a logical progression, and the Buddha always does enumerate the path in that order as a causal chain, each successive step being dependent upon the prior one.

Now there's a very big problem in this for most people, because if it is really the case that right view is the beginning of the path, then how do you get it? It's a pretty tall order, and it couldn't be acquired via the path itself because it's the entrance to the path. This was a problem that had occurred to me, so I was looking in the texts for possible solutions to it. And I found that in the instances of people getting right view that are recorded in the texts, it's always as the result of a special teaching that they received from the Buddha.

The Buddha himself, in order to explain how this works, gives the simile of a mountain, in which he describes two friends walking through the jungle, which is a Buddhist metaphor for sense-pleasures. They come upon a mountain slope, and one friend climbs to the top of the mountain and then shouts down to the other that from his new vantage point he can see delightful stretches of level ground and lotus ponds -- a metaphor for nibbana. But the one at the bottom of the mountain, still in the jungle, doesn't believe him. And what the Buddha says is that he could, like the one at the top, go on adamantly claiming that what he says is true, or he can come down to the foot of the mountain, take his listener by the arm and gradually lead him to the top, where it is possible for him to see things for himself. And this is what I think the Buddha does. When he's causing someone to gain right view, he comes down to their level and gradually leads them to a position where they themselves have sight of things as they really are. This is why he is spoken of as the "good physician who gives men back their sight."


Darrell:
I'm tired of doubt and uncertainty, although I don't know how that can be avoided entirely, at least in the early stages. If there's a way to end it, I'm all for it. I'm tired of feeling lost and uncertain of what I'm doing.

The way to end doubt is to replace it with first hand knowledge. And the way to gain first hand knowledge is to practice, paying attention to the lessons learned along the way.

One way to sweep away doubt is to notice the positive things taught by the Dhamma that have helped you overcome obstacles in your life or have helped to alleviate dukkha (unsatisfactoriness). Another is to have an epiphany about the training (the Noble Eightfold Path) and to see that in this training lies the source of one's salvation from dukkha. The training is all about becoming cognizant of the unseen movements of the mind, having them become seen and known to the observer. The more one learns about the way in which the mind works, the more control one can eventually gain over those mechanisms, and thus gradually release (let go of) the mental fermentations (underlying determinants) which cause dukkha

In peace,
Ian
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 7:38 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 7:38 PM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
You've already gotten lots of good advice, not sure how much I could add but I will give it a shot anyway.  IMO, doubt, confusion, etc is just a common part of life.  You have a choice to stress out over it or choose to worry about it less.  It's fine to be confused, it's natural, life is confusing, and so is the path.  You will likely be confused a ton in the future as well.  You will repeatedly move forward without being sure what is around the bend.  The thing I have noticed as I travel on the path is not that I feel I have way more answers, because as they often say, more answers just leads to more questions anyway.  Its more that over time I don't need the security of having "The Answer' to things as much anymore.  I am still curious yes, but I can also appreciate the many mysteries.   And once I stopped stressing out over it, it became much easier to pick amongst various options without much angst and to follow my natural curiousity to find out new things without worrying about if it was the most efficient way or not. IME there is a kind of situation that if you stress and obsess to much, you actually become less efficient.  I think all that overthinking tends to block natural intuition and instinct.  IME, toning down the overthinking in day to day life helps let the inner voice of curiosity and intuition have a louder say.  Give yourself total permission to be utterly clueless and confused, it's fine.  Yes, the mind often has a habit of wanting anchors and security but carry a lot of that and it sucks a lot of energy out of you via stress.  The ground you are walking is like shifting sands, changing in subtle ways as you look at it from different perspectives, that can be looked at as either scary and frustrating or something truly amazing and interesting.  If you go at things with the mind of a total clueless beginner, ie open to all manner of info but not clinging to any of it, then a great weight of stress can be thrown off!  ;-P
-Eva
Darrell, modified 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 10:08 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/23/15 10:08 PM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 143 Join Date: 2/22/15 Recent Posts
I'm overwhelemed by all these fantastic responses. I'm moved by the support and understanding shown by all of you.

Thank you very much.

When I first registered here, I entertained the idea of a virtual sangha, but was dubious about the possibility. Yet again and again my doubts have been proven wrong. I couldn't be more delighted. Indeed an e-sangha can exist.

You all have helped me more than you realize. I've got to print all of this out, I suspect I'll need to re-read these words you've written more than once as I go on from here.
charon, modified 8 Years ago at 7/24/15 2:29 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/24/15 2:29 AM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 36 Join Date: 11/24/10 Recent Posts
This thread brought me out of lurking mode again. I'm very much in the same boat as Darrel, and have found the replies to have been just what I needed to read. Thanks to all
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Don Merchant, modified 8 Years ago at 7/24/15 4:54 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/24/15 4:54 AM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 202 Join Date: 6/9/15 Recent Posts
Darrell,

I apologize for a 2nd post. I am reading a book that has a reference in it to the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta. Yeah, I never heard of it or read it before either :-). Anyhow, in there is a parable of a man poisoned by an arrow. Just read through it and see if it catches your attention in regards to questions you are having about all this meditation and Buddhist stuff.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html
Eva Nie, modified 8 Years ago at 7/24/15 11:10 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 7/24/15 11:10 AM

RE: foundering, floundering and other F words

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
Don, good post, I think the point being, we have figured out a general system that often works for enlightenment and that system does not depend on us knowing all the answers to all the questions, it only depends on us going through the system.  But in that way it's kinda opposite what scientists and Americans are brought up with since childhood to first understand a system and THEN take action accordingly.  Instead there is this big pile of questions still present even as we go forth, since it's different from normal, it's can be kinda hard to get used to.  In this way, I think it may be a bit easier for some of the cultures that have a more kick back style of living and thinking but conversely it may be a skill that Americans (and the like) may need more. 

A guru has, IMO, an unenviable position of being expected by many to have all the answers.  SOunds like a lot of pressure to me!  But I would imagine those that come from a lineage would have seen how to fend off questions that are not useful by seeing how those before did it.  Answers to such questions may just serve to distract a practitioner from what the guru may feel is a better use of brain power.  In addition, the guru may not know the answer or the answer may not be cut and dry enough to be understood by the practitioner or translated into language accurately.  Easiest solution is to say that you don't need to know the answer and/or find out for yourself.  Problem solved.

If you think about it, so far our research into the nature of reality via quantum physics seems to indicate it's some really weird and hard to understand concepts and behaviors.  It may be that our puny brains in their current state just are not fully up to understanding such things fully.  Reminds me of when I took calculus, my brain could not fully keep up with totally groking everything I was doing.  Sometimes I understood mostly but many times, I only understood partly but also just followed the systematic methods taught to get the result.  Over time, as I studied it more and more and solved more problems, I got a better feel and understanding for it.  But i was not able to grok it fully just by someone telling me a few things, my mind was just not up to it.  Most of the learning came from the doing.  And the nature of reality may well be more complicated/alien/difficult than calculus for all I know!  ;-PP

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