Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:20 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:20 PM

Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
So when I read through various archived Dho threads, I am always struck by the mastery and precision with which Hokai Sobol used to make his points on these boards.  I just wanted to add some quotes in one space for everyone to check out.  Not trying to engage in any odd hero worship here, just interested in both the form and content of the messages.

While it is true that any and all of these quotes are 'out of context', he is frequently presenting large swathes of information that would have been somewhat out of context in the original discussion threads, anyway.  I'll be adding quotes in gradually, in the form of different posts rather than one, long thread.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:34 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:23 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
RE: Singular vs Multiple Types of Awakening 


It's important to note that a recognition of multiple paths leading to the same fundamental understanding is one that cannot arise in a premodern horizon. The postmodern horizon will, however, highlight important irreducible differences between paths (and paths are always a marriage of practices and doctrines, so that each - practices and doctrines - serve as contexts to the other). A post-postmodern horizon will begin to reassemble the fragmented multiplicity in flexible ways to discover a deep unity behind practical and doctrinal appearances, gradually uncovering a hidden gradient of depth and eventually nonrelativity as the foundation of various paths. Comparisons of maps from traditions as different as Orthodox Christianity, Vedanta, and Mahamudra have shown general resemblances and mutliple cross-confirmations, in spite of affirmative vs. negative language differences and theistic vs. non-theistic primary orientations. This however doesn't mean there is a "pure", neutral gradient of realization to be found "out there", some sort of "objective" fundamental actuality. The path itself is enacted and co-created as we go, but such dynamic enactment itself is a recent insight, to which many spiritual practitioners and practices haven't been updated.

Good point. This is closely related to the topic, i.e. singular vs. multiple. The Buddhist traditions speak of the immanent in various ways, from luminous mind in Theravada to buddha-nature to clear light to original wakefulness to the essential unity of three buddha-bodies ("svabhavika"). Of course these concepts are not identical, but they refer to the same fundamental awareness, that is a priori at the very core of our human being. Now, this core or source or essence is not immutable and fixed, nor is it somewhere - whether center or periphery - or everywhere, and is also not "one thing" so that it manifests AS different features, such as clarity, sympathy, will, strength, equanimity etc. in dynamic ways. Even original wakefulness, to take just one feature, is classified according to the buddha-genealogy of "three divisions" in earlier tantras or "five families" in later ones. These various aspects, say energy-insight-love, are often not at all recognized as multiple, non-contradictory expressions of essence, but are given priority based on the limited understanding of those who penetrate the immanent incompletely. So, some will speak of truth and reality, and some will only speak of love as the way; some will teach meditation and equanimity, and yet others will emphasize clarity and insight as that which really liberates; there are those who will teach the way of energy and power, and those who will celebrate service and devotion and acceptance and humility. Some paths will teach more than one virtue, such as three trainings and six perfections in Buddhism, and yet give priority to one as supreme (e.g. wisdom/insight). Other paths will teach pairs of virtues as equally important (e.g. insight/wisdom and love/compassion) and ultimately nondual.


(Just for example, DhO community in general gives priority to meditation as the way to a specific insight, which is the cause or even basis of realization defined by the four paths-and-fruitions.)

The problem arises when any of fundamental aspects is grasped unto and misidentified as THE essential or primary attribute of awareness, which leads to considering other approaches secondary, inferior, misguided, or even wrong. If various paths or disciplines are conceptualized as different developmental lines - somewhat similar to multiple intelligences, and not to be confused with stages or levels as some do with three trainings - we can more generously reconcile the different angles or practice-arcs proposed. In addition, there is not only a question of someone's preference, because a preference may be positive (i.e. an expression of particular strength) and also negative (i.e. an expression of particular weakness), as well as both combined. While it is surely beneficial to aim for realization, it is also crucial to work on developing what is neglected or blocked or avoided, and then balancing in a context of unique personal embodiment. In this view, the yearning for wholeness in oneself, and a profound connection to manifest reality of world and others is preferably developed from start of one's conscious spiritual engagement. The first will serve as two-way conduit for what is yet to be realized, and the second will determine what kind of mandala your awakening will unveil and give rise to.

Perhaps in this context, making clear the need for a well-rounded pragmatism, we can consider the "provocative idea" with more discernment.:-)

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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:29 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:29 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
RE: Is there an absolute reality? 

Yes, "absolute" and "reality" don't go very well together, even for the rare awakened individual. Instead of "absolute", there is therefore "ultimate" as that which remains when everything is recognized to be contingent, dependently arisen etc., then there is "fundamental" as that which makes appearances be recognized as mere appearances etc. The traditional term was "lokuttara" meaning beyond the world [of dualistic appearances], i.e. transcendent, but Mahayana replaced that notion with "paramartha" or the "highest meaning" usually used with "satya" meaning truth, or simple that which is (sat). Another way to express this is "non-relative", and I find it quiet useful, since even some pretty profound experiential layers (such as bhavanga or alaya-vijnana accessed in dhyana) are still only relative, conditioned, non-ultimate. Further on, the term suchness or thusness (tathata) comes closest to conceptual neutrality, evoking a transparency, serving as a pointer and an activating signifier, inviting one to experience and understand for oneself, firsthand.

The problem with "ultimate" and "absolute" is definitely in their being easily constructed as something apart from what one is and knows at this very moment, or any moment. Still, there is a moment when only That remains.
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:39 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:39 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
RE: Responses to "The Fundamental View" 

Well, basically and most generally, traditionalist view is delineated by myth and scripture, with rigid institutional expressions. Modernist view is based in rationality and critical thinking, with democratic organizational structures. Postmodernist view may be seen as a bold embrace of multiple perspectives in every area, which thus creates a sharp relativism. It's useful to recognize a moderate and extreme version of all three.

Each of these has had precedents before actual historical emergence on the wide scale. Nowadays there are also quite a few examples of hybrids, including sometimes all three in some way, but without distinguishing their specific features, and thus such hybrids poorly integrate the components.

Typically, a traditional Buddhism would be conservative, scripture based, proclaiming Buddha's boldness in shaking the spiritual life of his times, but quite unwilling to shake the present status quo in the way practice is done, dharma is taught, sangha is organized etc. Perpetuation of "genuine Buddhism" and purity of transmission, orthodoxy and orthopraxis - those are typical traditional fixations. ("Buddhadharma is the one and only true way," or, more humorously, "Buddha loves me, this I know, 'cause the sutra tells me so.")

Further, traditional Buddhism will regularly produce chauvinism and sectarianism, whether hard or soft, at various levels and in every sphere, from doctrine manipulation (see how many great teachers have found it necessary to criticize the teachings of other great teachers as heresy) to social policy (see Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, and other histories for examples). Sutra texts will be re-written to suit momentary needs, everything teaching will be attributed to Gautama the Buddha, and hagiographies will even today be treated as bona fide biographies etc. However, this ancient structure also generates great virtues.

(to be continued)


Again, typically a modern Buddhism, wherever appearing, would have certain deep features like evidence based investigation (not just "public" evidence, but also corroborated subjective insights), distancing from myth-based reality models, sober appreciation of human potentials, recognition of any form of ethnocentrism as a serious limitation, equal rights for women at all levels of social organization (whether secular or religious) etc. A modernist approach will often have its own fixations, that may result in things like scientism (basically, mechanistic materialism) and rigid secularism, which lend themselves to understanding in a historical and developmental perspective. ("Buddha was a proto-rational reformist, and a true individual. Later Buddhists made a religion from his teaching, and a deity from its founder.")

Postmodern Buddhism will always bring an awareness of cultural contexts and the process of meaning-making, social conditioning of knowledge and its relation to power structures (whether hidden or obvious), distrust of hierarchy in various forms etc. while its fixation will be an almost irresistible urge to reduce everything to context and every context to further context, giving birth to extreme relativism, and thus denying anything resembling a universal in any form at any level, verging on nihilism. ("Derrida said what Buddha meant. Emptiness has no meaning, and that's the meaning of emptiness.")

(to be continued)


Now, it's interesting to note that each of these paradigms is generated from a certain developmental level, by giving meaning to everything as appearing within its horizon, and it's also interesting to note that each of these levels gives something important to the whole developmental edifice, something to be retained and integrated as we move on. But to move on, we need to objectify the structure prevailing at that level and thus disidentify from it to a significant degree, which isn't a small feat as that structure is the very apparatus of interpretation and the space within which our subjectivity consolidates into a coherent and stable pattern, while providing a shared platform for exchange and mutual recognition in groups and societies.

To integrate the good of premodern, modern, and postmodern while not naively running into their fixations and fantasies, we need to distinguish their strengths and weaknesses first, identify their shadow, delineate their truth-claims, and then to formulate a flexible integrative strategy: a robust, comprehensive, and pragmatic set of principles, based on radical methodological transparency and freedom from perspectival chauvinism.

(to be continued)


Chuck: "How does a postmodern Buddhism make room for a postmodern Christianity, Islam, etc.? Or does that occur at a more abstract or higher level?"

This is obviously a complex issue, but at an early postmodern level there would be an appreciation of other paths' capacity to produce authentic realization, but their respective claims - either doctrinal or contemplative, i.e. conceptual or mystical - would remain rather incommensurable. At a more mature postmodern level (actually post-postmodern, to be accurate), there would be an open possibility of admitting not just compelling similarities, but defining actual states and stages that are more or less universal. Yes, a meta-view fits nicely with this kind of consideration. What Wilber has offered in "Integral Spirituality" (2006) gives great hope that such a meta-view is not just possible but actually emerging already among at least some proponents of great traditions.

I wouldn't say we need a "tradition neutral" language at all. Some sort of lingua franca is already in place, anyway. What we need is a host culture that can accommodate and provide space for such conversations, language being just one dimension or refraction within that cultural space. Once we have that, proponents of each tradition will freely engage as long as they come from a developmental level capable of engaging such exchange and interested in finding a post-denominational identity common to all participants. Contemplatives have always been and remain the most likely candidates.

(cont.)
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:45 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 12:45 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
RE: Is Arahantship what we're seeking? 

Great question. So far we've had plenty of sectarian answers to it. Apart from differences in methods and doctrines found in each of vehicles - which are not insignificant - the goal of individual liberation is common to all three. However, the nature and ideal of this liberation is viewed in accordance with the View of each vehicle, and thus the very process is felt and held differently by practitioners in each. Specifically the treatment of "poison" and "negativity" and "obstacle" differs greatly, insofar that negativity can be (1) uprooted, (2) transformed, or (3) transmuted into essential energy.

In addition, bodhisattvahood emphasizes the importance of universal compassion as the flip side of insight into the non-relative domain. To cut a long story short, the bodhisattva is reminded to practice out of love for everyone, and there are standard ways to unpack and apply this injunction. Furthermore, a post-streamentry bodhisattva should cultivate virtues that both make eventual realization more complete, and allow the realizer to be of better service to others.

Finally, tantric methods stem from teachings of the third turning of the wheel, namely the buddha-nature of everyone (and even of everything), and employ a series of special methods. The variety of tantric lineages makes a general statement very difficult. Due to innovative and creative methods, the body (not just as object), speech (not just conceptual) and mind (not just bare witnessing) are viewed as EQUAL portals to/from primordial awareness, while wisdom and compassion of Mahayana are supplemented with power/energy. All are seen as capable of participating in buddhahood, even the most debased, while simultaneously care is given to post-awakening cultivation and integration.

In short, the liberation is equal, it's employment different. Useful?
The Poster Formerly Known As RyanJ, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 3:57 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 3:57 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 85 Join Date: 6/19/15 Recent Posts
I feel like I gain a few IQ points as a new baseline by reading Hokai, thanks for this!
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 4:06 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 4:06 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
RE: Emotions 

Seems that mostly we're talking of emotions from a specific, perhaps unacknowledged perspective (sorry if I missed someone's post to the contrary). Namely, emotions are somehow that which inherently arises, tortures you, and then goes away. In this sense, the best we can do is see through the whole thing and realize the impersonal nature of this display. However, there are at least two additional dimensions to be considered. First, horizontally, we can develop positive emotions and uproot negative ones. And second, vertically, we can evolve beyond relative identification with basic emotions, and develop a dynamic meta-emotional personal stream, with emotional states being an expression and augmentation of our stage of realization. Such meta-emotions, along with meta-motives, are concerned with the whole gestalt of our situation, refer strongly do what we might call "deep time" in spiritual sense, and tend to be quite resistant to changing local circumstances. They are often pointed to when speaking of passion and compassion, zeal and enthusiasm, authenticity and inspiration etc.

Furthermore, engaging in emotional work (whether therapy or transformation, but not to be confused) from an already awakened mind, is completely different and yet even more urgent and meaningful, than, say, doing emotional work when needed because of the obstacle the unresolved emotional baggage presents on the path. Anyway, I just thought throwing this unto the table might make things more balanced.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 6:47 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 6:46 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 5145 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
It would be really cool to have the links to those conversations. Why? Because the conversational context and the questions or issues Hokai was responding to are important to the comments he posted.

Just sayin'
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Noah, modified 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 8:39 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/2/15 8:39 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 1467 Join Date: 7/6/13 Recent Posts
Agreed, Chris.. each of the thread titles "RE: such and such" also acts as a link to the original thread.
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Chris M, modified 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 1:04 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 8/3/15 1:04 PM

RE: Hokai Sobol Archived Quotes

Posts: 5145 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Wow, yeah, I see that now, Noah. I was foolishly blind to it, wasn't I? Sorry!

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