http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Paticcasamuppada.htmWanted to start with this diagram, because it includes also the Transcendental Dependent Origination, also going to include some other links, etc.
The purpose of this post is to expand upon the study of Dependent Origination, and most importantly how to actually use the information in real life practice and in real life daily scenarios, in order to liberate the mind from,,,,drum roll,,,, Dukkha.



The basic principle of dependent arising is quite unique; it is called the “radiant wheel.” Here the process of dependent arising goes into a process of termination of itself [what others call the Transcendental Order of Dependent Origination]. The amusing thing is it shows the “meritorious effect of suffering.”
The Buddha talked about the stages of ending suffering. “I will explain the cessation of influxes (asava) only to wise people or people who see truth.” The Buddha said that when one clearly sees the beginning and end of the Five Aggregates (form, feeling, thinking, volition, consciousness), the influxes within him end because of Wisdom. The Buddha was able to pronounce this Truth because he had seen and realized it.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Paticcasamuppada.htm

Psi

And, by using the wayback machine, we travel back to DHO, circa 2010


http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/401038?_19_redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%2Fweb%2Fguest%2Fdiscussion%2F-%2Fmessage_boards%2Fsearch%3F_19_keywords%3Ddependent%2Borigination%26_19_searchCategoryId%3D0%26_19_breadcrumbsCategoryId%3D0%26_19_redirect%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.dharmaoverground.org%252Fweb%252Fguest%252Fdiscussion%252F-%252Fmessage_boards%252Fmessage-boards-home%26_19_formDate%3D1439955287538


A lot of very useful stuff in those posts

Psi

http://www.bps.lk/olib/mi/mi018-p.html

The Mahanidana Sutta: The Great Discourse on Causation

The Fifteenth Sutta of the Digha Nikaya

Translated from the Pali by

Bhikkhu Bodhi

Dependent Origination (Paṭicca Samuppāda) by Piyadassi Thera


http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh015.pdf

Well, to start off.  A couple of things I think about Dependent Origination.

First, it is of great importance, IMHO, to know where thoughts arise from, why this is so can be delved into later.  But , to keep it simple, for now, thoughts come after the sense contact.  It seems that before we undersatnd this, and because it may be generally not looked at up close, most people may not even connect the relationship between sense contact and thought.  Mostly it is just  thinking, thinking, thinking, unware that the thinking is arising from sense contact.  And , to be careful with this, a thought itself is considered as a sense contact.  So, is this seen, that the sense contact comes first, then the thoughts.  Is this seen in real time?

Second, also of great importance, Dependent Origination, can also be used as a kind of Mind Tool, a method, a map, same as one would use Vipassana Methods and Samatha Methods. But, and I am still thinking this through, it is not so much a method of how, but a method of why and how.  For instance, Why are there instructions to use the Four Supreme Efforts?  And the answer lies within DO, because it brings about cessation of Dukkha, and DO, shows the when and the where, and also what happens if we just let the mind follow its old habitual tendencies.  And, by examining DO, as a process, and examining DO, in real life, as it occurs, helps us to see what the heck is really going on here.  We can even reverse engineer and see why we have done things in the past.  So ,in this way DO is likened to a method, and a scientific one at that, one that can be examined to see if it is true , and can be repeated and the results seen to come out the same, for everyone.

Now, I am not here to try and teach DO, I am here to try and learn DO, and to share what I have already learned, from experience, from a  friend to friend, point of view.

Psi

I hadn't been exposed to the upside of dependent origination before, the "Transcendental Order of Dependent Origination".  Thanks for this.

I think it's crucial to study this teaching. Over the years, I've listened to talks and read commentaries from a few different sources. Some of the ones I've found useful include Ayya Khema's book, Know Where You're Going, which goes in depth into liberative dependent arising (I believe this book is based on talks she gave at Gampo Abbey in 1988).

She asserts that the crucial link in "earthly" dependent arising, lies in between vedana and tanha. When you notice the feeling tone of an experience but do not then "take the bait," you have given yourself the ability to break free from the cycle. This feels different than seeing the movement from dukkha back to avijja, the gross cycle, and then dropping the whole mess to lead oneself into the line that is liberative dependent arising. Ayya Khema mentions that the earthly cycle differs from the liberative map, which is a straight line from dukkha to nibbana.

Here is another version, from https://newesotericteaching.wordpress.com/contents/four-noble-truths/second-noble-truth/analysis-of-dependent-origination/



I like the simile:  "the near shore is the conditioned life of suffering (First Noble Truth), the idea of making a raft is the knowledge of Dependent Origination, the origin of suffering (Second Noble Truth), attaining the far shore is the cessation of suffering (Third Noble Truth) and the raft is the Eightfold Noble Path (Fourth Noble Truth)."

edit: more on the simile: https://dharmasar.wordpress.com/2015/02/22/the-flood-and-the-raft/

Another model for understanding this subject is put forth in "The Shape Of Suffering," by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. He dismisses the usual models of the "wheel" and the "circle of mirrors" for one that bears a lot of similarity to the mathematical descriptions of complex nonlinear systems. This is akin to the "tangled skein" that is also mentioned in the canonical texts. I've only read this book once and it's quite dense and difficult to understand, but thought others of a more academic bent may enjoy it.

One of the main difficulties for me in "getting" the concept of dependent origination has to do with the terminology. Often the translations from the Pali language are imperfect and give rise to connotations in English that probably didn't exist in the original writings. So, it's important to read from several sources and see how the different translations of the Pali terms might give rise to different conceptions.

For example, it took me a lot of digging to discover that the term "feeling" (vedanā, which occurs right after contact) is not the same as "feelings," which we often connote with "emotion" in English. This is only physical feeling, NOT emotion. Emotion comes later. Emotion is personal, whereas feeling is impersonal. So, contact is made when one of the six sense doors connects with a sensory input, and mind pays attention to it. This immediately gives rise to a Feeling, either good or bad or indifferent, so that Feeling - in this context - is simply the immediate response one has to Contact.

One other thing that is important to understand is that dependent origination (or dependent co-arising) does NOT have anything to do with previous lives or rebirth (in the sense of a human being actually coming to the end of their life, and then being reborn). This is another translational error that seems to trip people up, and which has been propagated (incorrectly) for centuries. "Birth" is simply a term for "the start of," and does not refer to the birthing of an infant from its mother's womb.

BTW, where is your diagram taken from? I have not seen the right side before.

Jeff

Wow, thanks everyone, great replies.

Small Steps, Yes, Ayya Khema is awesome explaining all this, Here are the talks on Transcendental Origination, thank you.

http://ayyakhematalks.org/Gampo_Abbey_1988.html

CPM, thanks for the diagram / link, that is a nice pic, doesn't make it seem like some computer flow chart.  I like the raft simile, It is like we are on some stranded shore, alone, and we have to fashion a raft out of this mind and body, it is the only way, to scavenge all we can muster up from within, to build a strong and sturdy raft, a real survival story.  

Maybe, we could think of the raft as eight logs, each log representing one part of the Eightfold path.
And further yet, six logs across, with two to tie the raft together, samma sati and samma samadhi.  
Anything less and the raft is unstable.





And thanks Jeff,  for pointing out the "tangeled skein", true, very true, the whole mess of Dependent Origination seems very complex indeed, knots, loops, threads, tied, crossing, connected in many places, interwoven, knotted.  The mind with its nearly infnite possibilities of interconnections, baffling.  And even more baffling to think that this can actually be all worked out.  It is good to remember that DO is not such a simple model, otherwise we become complacent and think we understand everything, and complacency leads to the cessation of investigation, not good, stagnation.

BTW, where is your diagram taken from? I have not seen the right side before.

Diagram from link, it is way down towards the bottom of the page.

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Paticcasamuppada.htm

Ah yes, that's actually the link I was looking for that specifies that it's a figurative "rebirth," NOT a literal one!

I actually "get" the links from Contact on up the chain. I was worried for a while that me not really getting it all the way from Ignorance would be an impediment to my progress, but the folks at Dhamma Sukha have pointed out that the important part is understanding what is in our control: from Contact forward. And that we can break the chain and realize cessation of this whole mass of suffering by working to remove Craving and Clinging in our lives.

[quote= I was worried for a while that me not really getting it all the way from Ignorance would be an impediment to my progress, but the folks at Dhamma Sukha have pointed out that the important part is understanding what is in our control: from Contact forward. And that we can break the chain and realize cessation of this whole mass of suffering by working to remove Craving and Clinging in our lives.
]Yes!  And that is exactly hat the TWIM practice does! Working with each and every step of the 6r's each and every time we are able to remember to do so.  One would do well to follow the wholesome teachers at Dhamma Sukha.

Metta

Psi

Well, the log pic has only seven logs, two of the folds must be intertwined...  :-P

So, here are a couple of ways at looking at the cessation of craving, here and now , in this very life, maybe not forever, but we can definitely pick our battles one mind moment at a time.  I think this is why Noting and Body scanning , Anapansati, the instructions to keep pounding away at the attention on the sense contact , etc , is continually mentioned.  All these methods are trying to get us to develop a mind that is still enough, (tranquil) yet aware enough (mindful) to be able to catch the sense contacts in real time , before the craving starts.  It is at this critical juncture within the mind process that one can begin the real work, at the feeling (sensation) level.  Feelings in Buddhism are not like feely feelings of a care bear, but feelings as in nerve endings, both internal and external , brain and body.  So, two excerpts that point to the use of being able to be aware of the sensations as they arise initially, before the mind goes off on it's merry go round ride of craving.
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing.htm



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel121.html

Psi 

Here are some additional talks from various western teachers. There's a couple of interesting interpretations and understandings sprinkled throughout these.

Joseph Goldstein

Donald Rothberg
Donald pt2
Donald pt3 - Dependent Origination III- Intervening to end the cycle of suffering
Donald pt4 - Dependent Origination IV-Review and Introduction to Liberative Dependent Origination
Donald pt5 - Dependent Origination V- Liberative Dependent Origination

Than Geoff: Scouting the Terrain: Exploring Dependent Co-arising as a Guide to the Path

Tempel Smith - Dependent Origination Daylong

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html

Transcendental Dependent Arising

A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta

by

Bhikkhu Bodhi

© 1995

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html

The Sixteen Stages of Vipassana Knowledge

• Knowledge to distinguish mental and physical states (namarupa pariccheda nana).
• Knowledge of the cause-and-effect relationship between mental and physical states (paccaya pariggaha nana).
• Knowledge of mental and physical processes as impermanent, unsatisfactory and nonself (sammasana nana).
• Knowledge of arising and passing away (udayabbaya nana).
• Knowledge of the dissolution of formations (bhanga nana).
• Knowledge of the fearful nature of mental and physical states (bhaya nana).
• Knowledge of mental and physical states as unsatisfactory (adinava nana).
• Knowledge of disenchantment (nibbida nana).
• Knowledge of the desire to abandon the worldly state (muncitukamayata nana).
• Knowledge which investigates the path to deliverance and instills a decision to practice further (patisankha nana).
• Knowledge which regards mental and physical states with equanimity (sankharupekha nana).
• Knowledge which conforms to the Four Noble Truths (anuloma nana).
• Knowledge of deliverance from the worldly condition (gotrabhu nana).
• Knowledge by which defilements are abandoned and are overcome by destruction (magga nana).
• Knowledge which realizes the fruit of the path and has nibbana as object (phala nana).
• Knowledge which reviews the defilements still remaining (paccavekkhana nana)

I wonder just how much these maps line up?  Same phenomenon, different view?  Seems like the end result is the same.

Edited to add Mundane to top section, for better comparison.  And, at first glance it does not seem the same, but it does have some striking similarities , if not exact similarities at different stages.  Probably does not exactly line up, due to the non linear, (skein  theory) of the mind processes.  

Skein
a tangled or complicated arrangement, state, or situation.
A Google definition of skein.

Psi

Don't overlook the seven factors of awakening:

Mindfulness (sati)
Investigation (dhamma vicaya)
Energy (viriya)
Rapture (piti)
Tranquility (passadhi)
Quiesence (samadhi)
Equanimity (uppekha)

I would go so far as to suggest, all these maps are the same phenomena and the same view... from slightly different angles ;)

Boy, Me too!, That was a big deal for me, for a while.  I was like what the heck is this Ignorance they are all talking about anyway?  Ignorance for me comes attached with a negative kind of meaning.  

But, Ignorance in Buddhism is one thing, and one thing only.  From the root word ignore, and to ignore specifically The Four Noble Truths.  Ignore the Four Noble Truths and dukkha will continue to arise, every single time.

The Four Noble Truths

• Dukkha exists – unsatisfactoriness, suffering, discontent, stress (to be Investigated)
• The cause or origin of dukkha is craving (tanha-lit. thirst) or clinging (to be Abandoned)
• Dukkha ceases with the relinquishment of that craving (to be Realized)
• The path leading to the cessation of dukkha is the Noble Eightfold Path (to be Developed)

http://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/dhamma-lists/

(side note)  I think the origin of dukkha has another level of origination underlying craving, and that is I-making and becoming, i.e. delusion,  but anyway.


When one has brought about the cessation of dukkha, which is the Third Noble Truth, then dukkha will not arise, as one is not ignoring the Four Noble Truths.

For example with successful TWIM practice, or bare attention, or success with one of the other or all of the Eightfold Path, any success with these factors will bring about cessation of dukkha, at least for the moment.

So, this is not to say that this is a permanent state of mind, that only happens in the final stage of liberation.  But, for us normal folk, a win is a win, we take it when we can get it.

For instance, to not let anger arise when something happens to us, is a win, that is cessation of dukkha, for that moment.  We will then know that we do not have to get angry when we spill a drink or drop our change, we simply do not have to react, after all, it is just gravity, and that is what falling objects do, no need to add anger to a situation that is now in the past.  We can just smile into the absurdity of life situations, dukkha.
But, of course it takes alot of training and hard work, it is not at all easy peasy to train the minds that we are born with.  Not to mention the culture and society that surrounds us and calls to us, to join in the societal madness.

Psi

Thanks for the link, I've been reading it, and looking at dependent origination in this way make a lot of sense to me.

I've been reading some of the material, and examples from this older Dho post that you linked.

I have a personal example that really helped me to appreciate the power of this teaching.  The example stood out to the point that I entered it into my meditation diary a couple of years ago.  

I was going through a bit of a stressful time at work.  When I woke up in the morning the situation and issues I was facing started flooding in.  As I was getting ready for the drive into work, I was ruminating about the situation and was soon in a very crappy mood.   As I was driving, I was obsessing about the situation and reviewing scenarios... After about twenty minutes I was in a relatively rural area on top of the Niagara Escarpment.  I stopped to get gas and looked across the landscape and noticed how beautiful is was. That was enough to pull me out of my spinning thought process, and have a bit of a different vantage point to recognize what was happening with me.  I could see that I was completely making up all these stories and creating this hell for myself.  The interesting thing is that when I saw that, the whole thing completely vanished.  No more spinning, ruminating, crappy mood... It all just went away in an instant.  That had never happened before.  Normally something like that would run it's course over hours or maybe even days.

Reading about dependent origination I can see that in this example, I was well into the clinging phase. I find that by the time that happens, it's normally more difficult to stop the process.  

I've had lots of examples where I catch things in the feeling stage, and stop the cycle right there.  It's easier when things are caught early, without letting it cascade into old patterns.



edit: change "contact stage" to "feeling stage"

Indeed, I have read from several different sources that the best place to "get off the train" (thereby realizing cessation of the chain) is when Feeling occurs (Feeling being either pleasant, unpleasant, or neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant) - in other words, before Craving sets in. Not always easy to do in practice, though. In fact, the speed at which the links of DO unfold is such that by the time I realize what is happening I'm already well into the link AFTER Craving, which is Clinging. The good news is that it seems like you can "back the train up" after you see the habitual tendencies / usual stories start to unfold in mind.

There is an interesting parallel to this in 12 Step programs. Page 87 of their Big Book (http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_87.htm) says:

Sounds similar, eh? Granted, there is also liberal peppering of Higher Power in these readings, but this quote has always jumped out at me.

Great point. Just the other day I happened to drop something and grumbled to myself. Then ropped it a second time and before I even knew what happened, was swearing like a sailor. Totally over the top swearing, certainly not what the situation called for. Man, these habits (or habitual tendencies) sure run deep!

Sounds very familiar, truth does that.   Here is another description that may sound familiar.

Hello CPM, 

Exactly, that is an excellent description.  And a deeper level of insight.  Alot of people get caught into believing that the cessation of all the mental turmoil would have been actually caused by the view of the landscape, the Niagra Escaprment.  Which is why humanity always tries to seek peace in far off lands, beaches, mountains , etc.

But, as you have seen , the Niagra Escarpment was just a trigger, the deepr insight was that the peace of mind, or rather that state of stillness,  can arise from within, independent of external triggers.  Just by, as you stated, by catching things in the feeling stage.

As a side note, your description reminded me of Abraham Maslow's Peak Experience.  And there may be a spectum of levels t this phenomenon, from the mundane to the supramundane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience


And, what is even more interesting is that this Peak Experience is not just a random event, that occurs through unknown causes, though Maslow was correct in showing that there are causes and conditions for setting up Peak Experiences, i.e. Hierarchy of Needs.

But, that this phenomenon can be experienced though the use and understanding of Dependent Origination, not just as a concept to be grasped intellectually, but as a tool that can be used experientially to help people in this very life, here and now.

Thank you for your openeness in sharing your experience.

In peace, 

Psi