Hi all, I'm new here and a little daunted - seems others in this forum easily attain sotapanna after a few years and that there are arahants lurking everywhere! Anyway, could do with some pointers if someone would be so kind.

Basically after four years of daily meditation and ten years of retreats, I still can't "do it"! 

That is, I find formal meditation practice almost invariably unpleasant (pain, boredom, frustration, despair) and cannot extend the length of sessions. I keep reading/hearing that meditation gets easier with practice, but for me it hasn't. Other meditators (including less experienced ones) tell me they routinely enter "peaceful", "pleasant", and "blissful" states. That can lead me to crave such states (which of course makes matters worse). So I usually avoid talking to others about their practice - and I generally tend to avoid websites like this, where people discuss their attainments.

But obviously samadhi and jhana are critical for progress. MCTB stresses that the first goal in concentration training is attaining "access concentration". I despair of being able to achieve this reliably.

My background: 47-year-old male, introduced to meditation in 2005 at a Kadampa centre, first Goenka retreat in 2006. Have since done three more Goenka retreats, a three-week Mahasi retreat in Doi Suthep Thailand (pure torture), three shorter retreats at a local monastery (Thai Forest tradition), and three short stays as a lay guest (1-2 weeks each) at the monastery. Have practiced daily since 2011, gradually increasing sits to 45 minutes mornings and 30-45 minutes evenings.

I LOVE the Dhamma and have a reasonable grasp of it at an intellectual level (though I've avoided reading about stages on the path since I can't even seem to get off the starting line). I'm highly motivated and have considered ordaining. I've spent time at Wat Pah Nanachat in Thailand, visited the main meditation centres in Burma, and been to the Buddhist pilgrimage sites in Nepal and India. (Also attended Buddhist Geeks 2013!)

Materially, I've been fortunate enough to attain financial independence, so I no longer have to work. I have no wife and no children (though I do have elderly parents). I live alone in a comfortable apartment near the forest and the ocean, and I'm completely free to meditate all day...but I just CAN'T! Somehow I'm blocked. Whenever I try and intensify my practice, say on a retreat, my concentration gets WORSE as the retreat continues - the opposite of what others experience! I'd like to do a three-month intensive Mahasi retreat in Burma, but I doubt I could handle even three weeks. 

After 10 years I can pretty much count the pleasant experiences I've had in meditation on one hand. (By the way, I have no idea if there is a name for these or what.) On my first retreat there was a brief (few minutes) "lifting of the darkness"; hard to describe but it felt like a glimpse into what real happiness was, and it completely blew me away. I then felt an overwhelming compassion, sadness, and sense of tragedy at how tiny and dark our lives are in comparison. That experience hasn't happened again (sometimes I wonder if I imagined it). During later retreats, on about three occasions there were pleasant tingling sensations all over the body surface, then the body seemed almost to fade away, breathing was very subtle yet attention to the breath felt quite effortless (no thinking), and I experienced sort of a luminous bright white "wall" - not static, but slowly flowing downwards like candle wax.

The latter three experiences were mildly pleasant, though I wouldn't label them as blissful. To be honest I experienced far more bliss in my old life of sexual promiscuity, drinking (I was an alcoholic until I quit booze in 2007), and drugs (ecstasy, LSD). I know that's an ignorant, narrow perspective - but the mind moves towards what is pleasant, and this mind has found very little pleasantness in formal meditation. 

Sometimes I consider ditching Buddhism and reverting to my former debauched lifestyle. But here's the kicker - I find I can't go back! I no longer have any interest in alcohol/drugs, relationships, career-building, music, entertainment, extreme sports, etc - all the things that used to give me pleasure. I've lost interest in pretty much everything "worldly". I can't even stand watching TV!

So by way of long-winded explanation, here I am in a kind of empty wasteland between two worlds. I very much want to follow the path but seem incapable. Yet I can't go back to my old life. In this existential desert I have almost no sources of pleasure. At times I've considered topping myself, but now that I semi-believe the Buddhist dogma of rebirth I fear that such an act might lead to more suffering in the next life.

Buddhism should come with a warning label! For those who managed to wade through this post, any suggestions would be very welcome. I'm guessing the answer is acceptance and patience, but at the moment all I have is resistance and doubt.

Hi, thereisnospoon, what I notice about your post is that you name places and practices, but you don't name any powerful teachers. That could be the element you're missing. I wrote down all I know about stream-entry (it comes to one page!!!) and you can read that on my website, where you can also see links to an ebook describing the way it worked for me. http://stream-entry.ca

Here are some suggestions and comments. You list your retreat history but not your present meditation practice. What are you doing in your mediation sessions each day?

You might try substituting investigation of what is happening in your meditation instead of searching for bliss. Investigating what is there such as pain and frustration can be interesting and exciting. Are you too identified with what is happening? Can you disembedd from your unpleasant experiences? Can you break your uneasiness into its components such as a story line, body sensations, etc.?
 
Try adding some metta meditation sessions.
 
IMO, you already have enough access concentration.
 
I have noticed that some people make better progress starting off with a noting practice instead of a concentration practice. They develop concentration, as they get better at noting. You might be one of those people.

Thanks Derek, I'll check out the link. You're right, I don't have a teacher as such, and there are few if any "powerful", well-known teachers where I live. Having said that, the abbot of my local monastery has more than two decades experience as a monk, but generally he is busy with his duties and only has time for group questions each day, not any intensive one-on-one teaching (unless I were to ordain).

But it seems premature to be seeking out a teacher as I feel like I don't have the basics right yet.

If you have the moolah, I'd encourage you to spring for some 1-1 Skype coaching sessions with Kenneth Folk or Ron Crouch. I'm sure that they would be happy to help with the basics, as well as taking you beyond the basics.

Thanks Derek, sounds like a possibility - I've always been suspicious about handing over "moolah" for spiritual teachings, but I was impressed by Kenneth Folk at Buddhist Geeks and I guess even spiritual teachers have to pay the bills.

Thanks very much Jack. Sorry, obviously I should have described my practice. Nowadays I'm just trying to sort out concentration using anapanasati at the nostrils. Recently I've also experimented with Thanissaro's approach but don't really get it - the assumption is that a certain kind of breathing will "feel good", but to me breathing feels completely neutral when I've just sat down. (On the rare occasions that I get deeply concentrated, THEN breathing in and out feels good.)

Prior to this, when I started meditating regularly years ago, I used to sit down and do about 10 minutes of anapana then up to an hour of Goenka/U Ba Khin's "vipassana" (body scanning). But after a few weeks it just became totally automatic and the mind was off doing other things while the body scanning went on in the background. So then I learned a bit about the Mahasi approach when I was in Thailand, and practiced noting during sitting and walking meditation. Again, for a few months this helped maintain concentration a lot better. Eventually it seemed that I could become aware of phenomena and let them go without labelling them, but maybe I should go back to explicit noting once again.

Re metta, I used to incorporate metta at the end of each session, but it seemed so non-genuine as to be a sham. Unfortunately I seem to have a contempt and disgust for the world of human beings, and find it hard to generate metta (starting with myself). Intellectually I can justify feeling loving kindness and compassion, but I can't feel it. (On the other hand, metta and karuna once came up spontaneously when I was absorbed in walking meditation and not even thinking about the brahma viharas.)

To clarify, most of the time I'm not "searching for bliss", as I'm familiar with this trap. Over the last year I've been trying to accept/observe whatever comes up in meditation, while bringing attention back to the breath. But every so often someone will tell me about their experiences and it will set off this whole thought proliferation along the lines of "why the hell don't I have amazing experiences like that, my practice is just tedious and unpleasant, even after YEARS of meditation". After a week or two this usually passes and I just put aside expectations and plough on with the chore. But reading through this forum I can't help feeling I'm doing something wrong.

Yes you're right, I'm definitely too identified with the negative experiences during meditation. Though in everyday life sometimes I feel like I'm becoming more aware of my reactions to negative events etc and can observe any feelings/emotions with detachment until they fade. Hopefully that's some sort of progress. But I'm highly resistant to formal meditation, sitting or walking. I feel averse before I even start, it feels like a tedious chore. 

Anyway, breaking it down, my concentration is impeded by the usual things - unpleasant sensations, stimulating thoughts, or dreamy states. Re unpleasant sensations, generally they're not a huge issue, except after a couple of days on retreat. Sometimes after 40 minutes or so there's some pain in the backside and lower back, but I can generally ignore it. Though there's always a low-grade background discomfort and stiffness that is aversive. 

Re stimulating thoughts, they're the typical junk - issues in life that I'm dealing with, memories, plans for the future, lustful fantasies, things in the news I've read about, book or movie plots, songs playing repetitively, etc. ANYTHING that saves me from the dreariness of the breath! After a day or two on retreat my mind just screams out in boredom. Yet I know it's important to keep coming back to the breath - so then of course the frustration comes up, then depression and "why can't I do it" (because I've now set up my whole life around this path and feel there is nothing else for me). 

Once or twice the depression/despair has led to a "letting go" driven by weariness - then suddenly concentration improves, subtle sensations return, etc. But I can't force this letting go, have tried. I have tried to take a detached interest in the discomfort, distraction, boredom, frustration, depression but fail to find these things at all interesting. Seems like a catch-22; without sufficient concentration I can't drill down and disassemble these phenomena that are preventing me from concentrating. 

The other distraction of course is the "waking dreams" (random visual images, auditory hallucinations) which pop up, especially when tired or energy is low. I find these even more difficult to deal with than stimulating thoughts, as they're "slippery" and can make themselves seem important and relevant and thus drag the attention away from the object. Recently I've found that a mantra seems to help a bit with this.

These all sound like the typical issues faced by a beginner - and I find that pretty depressing! What have I attained in ten years, while others on this forum have been busy exploring the jhanas and attaining stream entry?

Further to this, I watched something on YouTube with Kenneth Folk and a student talking his way through the jhanas. A Theravadan monk once told me that there is no thinking in jhana, and no awareness via the sense doors. So how is it possible for someone to go on Skype and chat away in while in the fourth jhana?

That's a question you'd have to put to Kenneth. 

One other note of clarification - typically I can't attend to the meditation object for more than a few minutes these days. This is what I mean by being unable to reach access concentration.

Okay thanks again Derek, I'll look up his website and maybe make some initial enquiries.

thereisnospoon:



Just soft vs hard jhana.  I think it depends on what order the factors arise in, and just randomness too.  

Also, Ron's the real deal.  Worked with him for over a year, every two weeks.  Worth the money (which he is flexible about, btw).

Thanks Noah, I've now looked up soft versus hard jhana in MCTB. A lot of these nanas and jhanas seem vaguely defined and difficult to distinguish, but this is the first time I've really started reading about them in detail so maybe it will become clearer to me.

Ron's website looks good and he seems very reasonable and flexible about payment - which is good, as my country has a weak currency compared with the Euro and US$. I think starting over from scratch with a good teacher might be useful for me.

Are you enjoying your actual meditation? It seems you aren't. That makes me wonder what your motivation is. Why continue to do something that only brings you frustration? I mean, if you're not getting something out of it, what's the point?

For me meditation is the best part of my day and the key is it feels really, really good. I use metta as my object of meditation - it's warm, organic, positive and less esoteric than breath meditation. And I smile a lot, relaxing whenever I release a hindrance before returning to metta.

It feels like you're overthinking all this and you're meditating to prove somthing to yourself. Could there be a little truth in this?

Hi Jeff, thanks for your comments.

Yes that's right, I'm not enjoying meditation. I'm pleased for you that you do enjoy meditation. Many people say similar things - that it's pleasant and feels good. The main point of my admittedly long boring posts is that I'd like to enjoy meditation like other people do. The fact that I don't enjoy it seems to indicate that I'm doing something wrong, and I'd like to figure out what that is, if possible.

So are you recommending I should just quit because I find it too hard? But one has to meditate to follow the path, right? Sila, samadhi, and panna. Should I give up on the whole enlightenment thing?

Sorry if I've misunderstood.

Hi,

How do you generally feel? You mentioned having few family ties, few obligations, and having contempt and disgust for this world, including yourself.  Do you have meaningful relationships with other people? Do you feel like you help other people in some way?

How much worldly purpose do you have? I understand the value of focusing on one thing, for example meditation; but is it possible that you have put tremendous pressure on yourself by finding meaning in only one task, which you so far feel you have failed at? Who's going to relax and concentrate in those conditions? I, too, frequently feel contempt and disgust for worldly things; at the same time, I've noticed that the more I engage the world in good faith, the better both my "worldly" and "spiritual" affairs go.

Also, you mentioned having given up, among other things, extreme sports. How much enjoyable physical activity do you get these days? I find nothing clears my mind and lifts my spirits as effectively as moving the body, preferrably outdoors.

You said you've had difficulty cultivating metta and compassion. Are there other wholesome feelings that are easier for you to grow? I sometimes think of the things I'm grateful for, basic stuff like food, water, shelter, clothing, fresh air, sunshine. For each, I imagine how it feels to be without them, for example, to be cold and hungry, to better appreciate their opposites. Better yet, every now and then I stop avoiding hunger, cold and the rest, to know what they are. Of course there's also the possibility of gratitude for less "worldly" things, such as the Buddha's teachings. As grows gratitude, so grows compassion for those who are less fortunate.

Related to the foundations of progress, a recent post on another thread:

CCC:

"I see the process of spiritual growth as follows:

unworthy self image  -->  worthy self image ---> no self image.

[...] I reckon where many go wrong is they find themselves feeling unworthy, and they try to skip ahead to no self.  Tolle did this.  McKenna also, imo.  A very painful way to come into enlightenment.  That's how I see it - unnatural."

Also, I've found it it useful to have clear goals. You mention enlightenment. What does that mean to you? I like Shinzen Young's definition: Happiness without conditions. That means, among other things, that there can be no conditions on the speed of attainment, either. I've found it very useful to both daily strive for my goals and to daily remind myself to accept that whatever happens, happens. Bowing forward along with breathing out usually amplifies the feeling for me.

You mentioned not having read ahead to those stages of meditative development where you feel you are not yet at. Two and a half years ago, I stumbled onto the chapter on the Progress of Insight from MCTB. Reading it was the text which, after about 6 years of procrastinating, finally got me to start meditating on a daily basis, which I've continued doing since then. Even though I couldn't locate myself on MCTB's map, just to become aware of such variety and depth of the possibilities of perception was inspiring for me. Also, it was heartening to be shown that what seems like a step backwards (you mention, for example, feeling pain and despair) may in fact be a sign of moving forward. Who knows, in the map(s) you might find yourself elsewhere than you had thought.

You mentioned having learned body scanning, to the point where it became automatic, and then the mind once again began to wander off. That sounds like progress to me: the mind's capacity increased to a point where it could handle more than just the initial task. So, scanning, noting or what have you, one strategy is to give the mind more and more tasks to do, more and more to be aware of, until most all that is useful is known.

Have you read any of the other threads on this forum where people in situations similar to yours are asking for help? In a recent thread, "Totally Stuck", maybe some of the advice the OP has received may help you, too:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5795760

Wonderful post Sakari, thank you!



Overall I feel pretty good these days (if I avoid the news, and driving!). Had recurring episodes of depression from teens to 30s, but a CBT approach has pretty much eliminated that (except on retreats when I get depressed specifically about my practice). Have a good relationship with family, and a few close friends (used to have a lot more, but they were essentially drinking buddies). My parents have been quite ill lately so I've been supporting them and cleaning their house. I have one very good "spiritual friend" (she's in a Hindu tradition) with whom there's a lot of mutual emotional support - for example, I spent a lot of time with her when she had a severe anxiety attack earlier this year and was hospitalised for a week. On a more material level I donate monthly to 3 charities and 2 Buddhist organisations, and help my parents financially.

Generally I think my sila has been good for several years now, though right speech still needs work.



Really good point. I had grand plans to do a PhD in neuroscience and be a scientist and contribute something to the world, lol. Completed a master's with honours a couple of years back, then spent a year getting a paper published. But it was stressful, and I couldn't face continuing in academia. Stress arose mainly because my memory is poor (thanks to 20 years of heavy binge drinking) and cognition slower than my peers. I had to put in long hours just to keep up.

Since the MSc I haven't found anything that interests me. I've considered various volunteer roles but feel unmotivated. But it would probably be useful to find some low-pressure part-time volunteer work helping others somehow.



Another good point. Although the things I used to do (surfing, snowboarding, boxing, SCUBA, swimming, half marathons, and surf lifesaving) no longer engage me, I do running and weight training pretty much every day and keep in good shape. Absolutely agree that exercise (and diet) is critical for good mental health.



Yes I have sporadically tried cultivating gratitude and found this very uplifting. Perhaps it would be useful to incorporate it into meditation practice in a structured way. Thanks for this.



You're very perceptive, that has indeed been my process. But honestly after 35 or so years of struggling to get my personality and self-esteem sorted, I was actually totally relieved to discover that Buddhism places little importance on this and instead emphasises the realisation of no self. It helped me let go of a whole pile of suffering at once.

Without wanting to drone on about my backstory, I have mild Asperger's (not diagnosed until 40s) which means I often have a poor grasp of social cues and other people's points of view. So I had a miserable time at school and struggled in early adulthood. Then I discovered that alcohol eased my social anxiety, and eventually became an alcoholic. The social anxiety returned after quitting drinking 8 years ago. But I couldn't see the point in going into some long expensive therapy process to sort out my "self"; it seemed like a waste of time (and having studied psychology for 7 years I wasn't impressed with the therapies available, except CBT). But your point is well taken - discarding any attempt to develop a sense of self worth has probably contributed to the rocky road I'm having.



I think you're right. For now I suppose my only goal is to feel comfortable in my meditation so I can increase the "dose", but I probably need to be more accepting of whatever experiences occur and investigate them properly.



That's really helpful. Yes maybe I should read that chapter I've avoided if it's potentially inspiring and motivating. I still hesitate because I'm aware of a tendency for the heart rate to increase if something interesting seems to be happening in meditation - which of course kills it immediately!



Again, heartening to think that I may have made some progress (and really interesting point about giving the mind more to do as capacity increases). Also, I'm not sure if this is my imagination, but I think my capacity for awareness in everyday life has expanded. By this I mean I can generally do things and be aware I'm doing them, and most of the time I notice emotions arising before becoming absorbed in them. I still can't bring awareness to social interactions though (there's a lot of information to process consciously when one doesn't have an intuitive feel for social situations).



Yes I've been gradually reading through the threads here and it does help to know that others have struggled in similar ways. I hadn't yet come across the one you linked to - I can certainly relate to what she's saying. Will now devote more time to reading previous threads - are most of the relevant ones in this category?

Once again, thanks so much Sakari for taking the time to post such a compassionate and thoughtful analysis. I'm sure others reading your comments will also draw inspiration from them.

From your description of your metta practice, I wonder if there is a better way to do it.. First, pick an object toward which you have a feeling of loving kindness or kind regard. It could be someone in your family, friend, pet, etc. Can you feel that emotion of loving kindness? If so, you can do metta meditation. Use the words only to lead back into that feeling. Then expand that feeling to other loved ones, yourself.  friends, people that you have a neutral feeling toward, people whom you have a problem with and finally toward all living beings. Any time you lose that feeling of loving kindness and you will, go back to that original object to connect with that feeling and then bring it forward.  If resistance comes up and it will, note the resistance and go back to that feeling of loving kindness or kind regard. Try to keep your intellectual mind out of this process. It should be a feeling exercise.

At the end of all that I add the following: Go back to that original object and connect strongly with the feeling of loving kindness. Then, drop the object and just keep the feeling. Then feel the barrier between you and the rest of the world drop away. Your struggle ceases. Then feel the joy and peacefulness inherent in that feelin

Thanks Jack. I think another reason I have trouble with metta meditation (on top of a lack of metta towards myself and poor empathy for others) is that I find it even harder to keep attention on the meditation object when it's effectively a visualisation. At least with the breath it's tangible and always there to come back to. A person or being not physically present quickly evaporates from my mind. But I'll try.

Glad if I could be of help. Also, heartwarming to read that you're engaged with the world in such meaningful ways. In fact, I'm a bit jealous   Hopefully you are able to feel joy from the service you do? And perhaps also compassion to any frustration you may feel from performing such service. Because let's face it, it ain't always sunshine and lollipops

A few other things came to mind:

You mentioned having studied neuroscience. I've found for me the most useful instructions on meditation to mainly come from people with some background in neuroscience. Particularly I would recommend Shinzen Young and his Five Ways to Know Yourself, a free pdf; Culadasa (John Yates) and his Progressive Stages of Meditation in Plain English, which might still be split into several pdfs, all free, and even better but not free is his recent book The Mind Illuminated; also Gary Weber, whose main text (not free) is Happiness Beyond Thought. Each of these dudes also has lots of instruction on YouTube, but I've felt their writings to be a more coherent and thorough package.

Re therapy: Someone once said: "Lose your mind and come to your senses." It seems to me that lots of people - including myself - who've been frustrated with "heady" therapies have found more success with somatic therapies / bodywork, especially variants of Reichian therapy. An excellent thread on that here:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5201846

Glad you also mentioned diet. I've found that generally the closer I manage to eat to the Paleo way, the more focused, aware, energetic and confident I am. Another excellent thread, this time about (intermittent) fasting:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/4344402#_19_message_4342191

And yet another on the ketogenic diet and related diets in regards to meditation, where else but here on the DhO?:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/4344402#_19_message_4342191

Can you get past the visualization and get the feeling of metta? You might have to work up to it. Take some time to just feel metta with your original object. Then next time, add some friends to feel metta toward. Eventually add yourself and other living beings. This all might take several weeks. Remember metta is feels not a story or visualization.

Hello thereisnospoon,

Finally, enough information has come out in order to be able to make an intelligent evaluation of your circumstance, and perhaps to be able to arrive at a reasonable diagnosis regarding the cause of the problem. The problem with trying to thrash out these things over the Internet is that in many cases all that gets divulged and focused upon are the symptoms of the problem without any insight into any of the root causes of the symptoms. A reasonably intelligent physician will first take a history of the patient and his experience with the malady and do a physical examination before attempting to posit a diagnosis as to what the problem might be. Everything hinges, in terms of successfully dealing with a problem, upon being able to arrive at a correct diagnosis.

Before I continue, because you don't know me (and without going into too much detail), a little personal background material is in order. When I was your age (which was just slightly under a generation ago) I faced a similar (not exactly the same, but a similar) challenge upon which I had to take some action. I was forty-eight at the time and eleven years previous had left after spending nine years (seven of which as a monk) associated with a Western contemplative religious order in which I was taught meditation while being introduced to psychological training as well as undergoing liturgical training.

I left the order for several reasons, but primarily because at that point it seemed that progress in my training had stalled out, and that I needed to explore other paths which might prove more conducive to the goal I was seeking, which had always been awakening or liberation. That was the agreement I had had with my former religious superior with whom I had gradually become disillusioned. I left the order harboring the impression that I had gotten all that he could teach me, and that I needed to move on in order to complete my training.

By that time I was used to living the lifestyle of a monastic and just continued to do so. At the same time I was similarly equipped with an extensive background in spiritual training, and was able to tell the difference between the genuine item and a believable fake. It took a few years after leaving to clear my head of the programming it had been under and to begin a rehabilitation. When I turned forty-eight I realized that I was at another crossroad in my life, and had to reevaluate whether I was up to another go at completing my intended goal. I wasn't satisfied with the prospect of having to return to physical existence one more time in order to "get it right," so to speak, and since I was so close to completion, there was little question as to the outcome of that decision. The urgency of the matter weighed on me.

At that time, it was all about finding an authentic "teacher" of whom I could trust to help guide me. Ironically, it was a quotation by the Buddha (a dead man) from the Anguttara Nikaya which helped to push me out the door of the religious order, and in which I saw the likeness of a genuine "teacher." I was familiar with Buddhism from college (and even admired it, although at the time it seemed like a steep mountain to climb) and had noticed that the Buddhist path was full of many highly intelligent and capable people. Besides that, I wanted to learn more about the man behind that quotation from the Kalama Sutta.

It took a few months of screwing around before I realized that I needed to focus solely on the discourses rather than all the books I was gathering written about Buddhism, and to see what was taught from the perspective of the horse's mouth. That realization and action taken marked a remarkable change in my practice. When I reexamined an explanation of the Noble Eightfold Path through Bhikkhu Bodhi's small book about it, I realized that I had found the pathway that I had been seeking all my life. And by that I mean that I knew this path would work! I could see it (understand it) visually in my mind. And I knew that I could achieve it. Because it was mirroring many of the things I had been taught in my experience in the religious order, but which had never been followed up on. It was literally the second half of the training that I had been seeking while in the order.

But enough about myself. Back to the diagnosis of your circumstance.

What you have going for you is time and your experience. By that I mean you are old enough and wise enough to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. It seems to me that the intelligent thing to do is to first stop! Then take a step back in order to gain a wider perspective of the landscape before traipsing off in any given direction. Then to reevaluate your situation.

There are positive aspects of your current ability described in the last two paragraphs excerpted above that you need to appreciate. Secondly, you need to consider the purpose for the use of meditation within the training procedures of the Dhamma as outlined by Gotama. And thirdly, you just need to relax your opinion a bit and get away from the negative, unwholesome thought patterns you have been cultivating about your "self" in relation to your ability (or lack thereof) to properly meditate. Once you begin to relax, and quit being so hard on yourself, things ought to lighten up enough for you to overcome these self-imposed obstacles to being able to enjoy meditation and begin experiencing some of its benefits. It becomes a matter of getting your head in the game; and right now it is not there quite yet.

At the same time, you need to be able to acknowledge that meditation, in itself, is no panacea or guarantee of enlightenment or awakening. It is merely a tool to be used in order to provide the mind with the time and the space to be able to arrive at certain realizations about one's life and existence in general, and about the truth contained in the Dhamma that Gotama taught in particular. The work comes in contemplation of those truths and being able to identify them from within one's own direct conscious experience. And that identification can easily come during waking consciousness outside of formal meditation. So, it is possible to realize profound insights the Dhamma can provide without an extensive background in meditation practice. One just has to be able to maintain mental focus while exploring the arising insight.

For example, I arrived at many of my greatest realizations about the Dhamma outside of meditation. Meditation practice, however, played an important role in my being able to recondition the mind to become more concentrated and mindful, more stable and at ease. Yet once I was able to determine the intent of certain key aspects of the teaching, the recognition of the truth of those aspects in normal waking life was fairly self-evident.

With your intellectual academic background and inclination, as you are making progress to develop a closer and more healthy relationship with meditation slash contemplation, it might profit you to explore, in the same way I did, essays and treatises and books by prominent Dhamma practitioners (and a few academics) who have written on these matters in order to begin exploring the intent and meaning of some of the more profound teachings. And before you begin doing so, it will also be helpful if you begin reading, contemplating, and taking notes on the four main volumes of the translated discourses of the Buddha in order to begin uncovering the many methods he used in order to communicate his discovery. One of those methods may trigger an epiphanal moment in your mind. I have listed a few of my favorite sources of books in a thread entitled Essential Books from Theravadin Resources.

I can highly vouch for the Wisdom Publication editions of these volumes, and the footnotes are not to be ignored. The only thing you will need to really focus upon in order to understand what is being written about are the definitions of certain key Pali words in order to verify them from your own direct experience of those concepts. Some of those definitions you already no doubt are aware and may even have experienced some release from, like Gotama's definition of the word kamma (karma). "It is volition, monks, that I declare to be kamma. Having willed, one performs an action by body, speech, or mind." It has nothing to do with the popularly perceived retributive metaphysical payback mechanism being exercised by a Creative Force in the universe. It has to do with one's honest and truthful volitional intention, and how that intention can produce a reaction (either negative or positive) in another person which may or may not have an effect on your life. Realization of this can remove a lot of pent-up existential guilt, freeing the mind which can enhance one's practice in meditation.

Simply immersing oneself in all this material (true, it is primarily mental; but then that is the nature of the Dhamma anyway) keeps it prominent in one's mind as one is grappling with comprehending it all in one's daily living. Also, it helps to provide meaning and purpose to one's day, as you begin to appreciate the meaning of mindfulness. When you begin to notice little epiphanies about the Dhamma as you go through your day, things that may have been on the periphery of your awareness and just beyond your notice before, it brings the teachings to life in a way that nothing else can. It also signals progress in your practice, in spite of any difficulty you may be perceiving with meditation itself.

It is not the experiences that you have in meditation – the "pleasant tingling sensations" or the "luminous bright white wall" or any of the rest of it – that will change your perspective on your world and how to live within it without experiencing dukkha, but rather how well you are able to integrate those realizations into your life that will make the difference in how you view and interact with the world. Don't allow yourself to become caught up in the meditation craze. When you start comparing yourself to others (either here on this forum or elsewhere) you begin a slippery slide down into a self-created hell, the likes of which you have already experienced. The only comparing to be done, if any, should be between yourself and the Dhamma. In other words, how much more is there to learn that Gotama taught that I'm not aware of?

If meditation, at the moment, is the source of your dissatisfaction, then limit it to periods of 30 to 45 minutes at least twice a day, and spend the rest of your time focusing on reading, studying, asking questions, and pondering passages you read from the discourses. There is plenty of help for corroborating your comprehension in the form of essays, treatises, and ebooks from the likes of writers like Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Nyanaponika Thera, Narada Thera, Bhante Gunaratana, Richard Gombrich, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Sumedho, Bhikkhu Nanananda, Ajahn Amaro and many others to plumb the depths of what can be discovered within the Dhamma. Become intellectually curious about what these people profess to know that you do not and see if you can stand up to their level of scrutiny.

Meditation helps one to begin disciplining the mind, and while that is important, when it appears not to be working, then focus on other aspects of the training that may help to loosen up your ability to meditate. Meditation is all about paying attention to the simple and small things that are going on within your awareness, no matter what they are. In that respect, everything that happens is grist for that mill.

Statements like "and most of the time I notice emotions arising before becoming absorbed in them" indicate a level of growing awareness and progress in the things that really matter that many who profess to have little trouble with meditation would give their right arm to be able to say that they had accomplished. So, don't sell yourself too short. Keep focusing on strengthening those abilities (staying in the present moment), because that is part of the practice too.

What I'm saying is: don't allow a perceived deficiency to drag you down. There are plenty of other useful things you can be doing in the meantime as you are working at strengthening that deficiency. Keep putting one foot in front of the other, and whatever you do, do not give in to self-doubt. It is a barrier that will only drag you down the more time you let it infiltrate your thoughts. Realize that, and don't let that happen to you.

In peace,
Ian

Sakari, thanks for your recent post, but just for now I wanted to come back to this previous suggestion of yours...



Yesterday I started reading through MCTB Chapter 24 ("The Progress of Insight") but couldn't really relate to it or understand the terminology; I guess I need to start the book again, it's been years since I read the first few chapters. So I had a look at this summary instead:

http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html#bottom

My first reaction was I'm not even on the map! The only stage I could relate to was the 8th stage - which could just as easily be depression! Most of my meditation experiences seem very dull and uninteresting compared with the exotic phenomena described.

Thinking about it further though, in theory shouldn't one move through these first few stages fairly quickly on a meditation retreat? So surely I must have progressed through these stages at some point - yet I don't recall any "aha!" moments of insight.

Obviously Goenka wants people to attain Bhanga nana during his ten-day retreat (he certainly talked about it a lot). On my first retreat I definitely experienced a clear "free flow of subtle vibrations" at one point. Later I had an experience where the entire body was tingling and seemed to dissolve (despite not having got to the point of moving the attention right through the body as instructed).

Are the stages of insight really clear and obvious when they occur, or is it possible to "miss" them somehow? I do tend to dismiss a lot of perceptual oddities that come up - partly because Goenka said to, and partly because I've studied psych and know that the sensory organs can generate a lot of interesting illusions, and the brain in general can produce considerable meaningless "noise". I don't know, maybe I'm just grasping at straws.

Anyway, either I'm in a state of complete and utter discouragement or cautious optimism. Feeling a bit like Schrodinger's cat.

Had an insight while sitting on the beach today. I'm following exactly the same pattern with meditation as I've followed with other (often trivial) worldly pursuits that I've really craved to master in the past (to name a few: surfing, picking up women, building muscle mass with weights, succeeding at university). I don't know why I didn't see this before.

I just realised it's a template for much of my life. Driven by perfectionism. Basically I select something I think is worthwhile and go absolutely hard out, devoting all my time and energy to this one thing, then after I feel I've expended a huge amount of time and energy but the results aren't coming I get frustrated, disappointed in myself, and depressed. Then usually I give up.

So it comes back to craving. Duh.

Ian, this is an amazing post. Just wanted to write a quick note now in acknowledgement and to thank you. I want to read your comments a few more times and absorb the details before I respond.

Thanks again Jack. I tried today but ran into something else. When I brought up the people I feel the most loving-kindness towards, other feelings came up as well - mostly sadness for their own suffering, compassion, and even some guilt about times I've been impatient or irritable with them. I guess I need to try and zoom in on the metta feelings, but I think this will take quite a bit of practice.

Thanks for your recommendations Sakari, I'll put these on my reading list. Will be interesting if they incorporate a neuroscience perspective; I started developing a theory linking to dependent origination while I was studying, but my focus has shifted now. I did find Shinzen Young very engaging at Buddhist Geeks and considered attending one of his retreats.



Love the quote!



Okay, this is probably an over-reaction (and attachment to a fixed view!), but any therapy connected to Freud I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Freud's bizarre cocaine-induced ideas have no scientific basis, are non-falsifiable, and Freud himself never cured anyone (contrary to his grandiose claims). I personally know two people who have been completely screwed up by therapies derived from psychodynamics. Admittedly I know little about Reich; hopefully the somatic variants you mentioned diverge a lot from Freud. Anyway, I'm glad you've found it beneficial.



I was on a paleo diet for about six years and from my experience it certainly seemed like the best diet for health - I felt a tangible change almost immediately after starting - like you say, very clear-headed and energetic (and over a month or two I got very physically lean too). 

But in 2009 I went vegetarian, almost vegan really. Part of it was wanting to improve sila and live as harmlessly as I could. But the main deciding factor was completing two university courses, one on ethics and one on animal ethics in farming. Until then, in my ignorance I hadn't appreciated the enormous harm the meat industry does to the environment, and its shockingly unethical treatment of animals harvested for their meat (even within current laws).

Anyway, when I went vegetarian I had to bring a lot of carbs back into my diet to make up for the energy I was no longer getting from meat. Nevertheless, I found I felt almost as good as on the paleo. It eventually dawned on me that the critical factor in a good diet seems to be eating primarily fresh, whole, REAL foods and avoiding processed and manufactured "stuff" dressed up as food (which naturally leads to no longer overdosing on refined grains, milk products, sugar, and salt, as most westerners do).

Re fasting, yes there seems to be a lot of research at the moment on fasting and its apparently amazing impact on health and longevity. I've only occasionally fasted - and mainly to remind myself I do still have an attachment to food! Haven't yet looked at the ketogenic diet but will.

Thanks once again Sakari for all your comments and suggestions.

Hi Ian, your post has provoked a big sigh of relief, a heartfelt thanks!

I really enjoyed reading your story, I like hearing how different religious traditions seem to offer alternative paths to the same truths - even if some may only have part of the answer. It sounds like the religious order you were involved in must have taken you a long way indeed, given that you quickly recognised the value of the Buddhist teachings and mastered them without really needing a (living!) teacher in the end - using the Sutta Pitaka to "fill the gaps" as it were. It's a fascinating journey you've had.

Regarding my situation, you've made a load of helpful observations. What I'm taking away (and please correct me if I've misunderstood) is that it's important to first drop the anxiety and doubt about my formal meditation practice, which are basically self-generated and based on comparing my own experience with others. And also somewhat unjustified, given that despite my concerns I seem to have made some progress in developing my "off-cushion" awareness. You also recommend that while I should maintain a solid daily practice, it may be counter-productive to try and extend it at this stage. Rather, it may be more beneficial to use the time I have available to study the Dhamma more from the intellectual side - starting with the translations of the original discourses and discussions of these by other meditation masters. You note that it's not all about samadhi - meditation is primarily a tool to practice calming and focusing the mind so that it can ultimately have clarity at every moment, not just while sitting. Thus realisations and insights can occur at any time, even during mundane activities. And insights may be more likely once one has gained a wider appreciation and perspective on the Dhamma from one's own study. Overall, this approach may help me relax and enjoy formal sitting instead of finding it aversive.

I'm looking forward to taking this advice on board. Couple of comments though. First, regarding intellectual Dhamma study - while my natural inclination is to read everything I can get my hands on, right from the beginning I've tried to restrain myself in this respect, simply because most teachers emphasise practice and advise against too much study. So I've tended to stolidly and precisely follow the meditation prescriptions given (first Sayagyi U Ba Khin for a few years, then Mahasi Sayadaw for a couple more) without allowing myself to really investigate how they are supposed to work. Your encouragement to dive into the literature (especially the original discourses) and to analyse and contemplate, is quite freeing, even exciting. 

Second, I've realised that the self-doubt that has recently come up so strongly had two triggers: Basically my concentration has been unsettlingly poor lately while at the same time I've been hearing from several different sources that there is no real progress on the path without solid samadhi and mastery of the jhanas. While I'm still sure this is true, I guess it's important to remember that this whole thing unfolds at its own pace and in different ways for each individual, and that I can't force it.

Strangely, while your post has given me a fresh perspective on my whole process, it's also kind of pointed me back in the direction I was already inclining toward before I got all wound up about nanas and jhanas! Over the last year I'd started reading more of the literature at our monastery, mainly Theravadin including Ajahns Chah and Sumedho (have been working through the 5 volumes of Sumedho's talks), and listening to more Dhamma talks. Until recently I'd also been working on (1) being a lot more accepting and at ease with whatever came up in formal practice; and (2) trying to develop the Thai Forest approach of bringing one's practice into every daily activity. I guess my point is that perhaps it's important to trust one's intuition at times on this path, as well as knowing when to reach out for advice.

Once again, thank-you Ian for your wisdom.

Hello thereisnospoon,


I figured that if I waited around long enough, someone would finally figure out what I was writing about, be honest enough with themselves to recognize that it makes sense, and to run with it. The young who come here (to this forum) are looking for a magic bullet to end the dissatisfaction and stress in their lives, yet they look past the very things that will help them to achieve just that. They think that meditation is the silver bullet because that is what all the stories they hear about tell them to think. So they approach the Dhamma with preconceived ideas about what it is and how they are supposed to proceed.

Rather than seek out someone who has trod the path before, someone who knows about the highs and the lows and how to maneuver one's way through them, they continue to seek for perceived short cuts without stepping back to see the forest for the trees. Every journey is different, and yet in the end, every journey is similar. It's just that the details are different.

It is particularly satisfying when someone is at a point in their life where they are able to slow down enough to be able to step back and intelligently consider something they hadn't considered before. Pretty much, the description you provided shows that you understood what I was getting at. I figured, from the context of your replies to others who were commenting on your situation, that you were old enough to take constructive commentary without taking it personally and were honest enough within yourself to be able to see how it might apply to the obstacle you were attempting to resolve.

Younger people want the world handed to them on a plate; older people with more life experience have learned that you don't get anything in this world without first paying your dues. It was apparent to me that you had done some dues paying and might be open to hearing what may have at first appeared to be a contrarian point of view.

You might not be old enough to remember it, but there was a song done by Kenny Rogers and the First Edition back in 1968 that kind of sums up the approach I was hoping you would recognize. "Just Dropped In (To See What Condition My Condition Was In)". It was a song intended to be a warning against the use of LSD during the counterculture revolution of the late 1960s. However, I meant it to be viewed as a self-reassessment process where one kind of steps out of their body, so to speak, in order to reassess the mental environment they've just travelled through. To see what condition their condition was in from the standpoint of an impartial observer.


Oh, I recognized the value of the Dhamma long before I finally decided to give it an actual go. It was just that living back in 1972 in the American southwestern Bible Belt, it was not the most conducive environment in which to pursue such an interest. No teachers, no Buddhists, and a bunch of red-necked Baptists wanting to save you from sin while collecting money from you in the form of donations to pay for the sins they made. Besides, my emotional immaturity wouldn't have allowed me to venture to a foreign country in order to explore the interest in more detail. That's okay. Things worked out for the best anyway.


Yes. And therein lies the source of my dissatisfaction with many on this forum who may see sutta study as a distraction or an unnecessary bother to take up. And yes, reading though the suttas can be time consuming and many of the suttas can seem repetitive (which was originally done as a device for memorization purposes), boring, or worse yet, opaque. But, without doing this, a person will never discover the golden nuggets of insight and inspiration which are contain in them. If you don't spend the time to read and contemplate the suttas, how do you even KNOW that you are practicing the Dhamma in any way that at least comes close to the way it was originally intended?

From the few discourses I had been expose to before I invested in purchasing the translated volumes, I was reasonably convinced that the man who spoke them was someone whose instruction I wanted to learn about and explore in more depth. This was my last chance in this lifetime to get it right, and I was more than motivated not to make any hasty mistakes. And as soon as I was able to realize what he was really teaching (as opposed to some of the things I'd been reading about in popular "Buddhist" reading fare), that being the reconditioning and wholesome cultivation of the mind, I knew that the path he laid out for achieving an end to sorrow would be effective, and I was hooked!

It was the same path I had been on when I was first introduced to the religious order. In fact, in reflection reverend father used many of the same techniques that a Zen master might have used, only his techniques weren't quite so inscrutable. I could at least figure out what the lesson was after the fact. Following a traditional Zen path under someone who was trained in the koan tradition could be frustrating because they never gave you any clue as to why they were doing what they were doing. You had to figure it out for yourself without any instruction. Not many of us are built for that kind of teaching approach. I certainly was not.

That's why I found the suttas so inviting. Here, at least, was a series of training methods with the instruction already laid out and ready to be followed. All I had to do was figure out the intended meaning of each instruction. And I used my life's experience to do that, endeavoring to bring Gotama alive in the present though his recorded thought. There were people and processes that I knew from my contemporary experience who mirrored some of the same things Gotama was speaking about. As a young Siddhattha, he had spent time observing his father's court of law, so this provided me with a picture of what he must have been like at that age and some of the things he had been exposed to which would shape his later personality. I endeavored to learn as much as possible about what was recorded of his actual life so that I could picture him as a contemporary in the present having to deal with the same problems. This provided me with incredible insight into many of his discourses. Because I could relate them to actual live events that I was familiar with while imagining what he had to deal with in reality during his time.

Then, too, you have to approach any kind of spiritual training with the right attitude, that being a studious and honest interest in correcting and purifying your own mind and views. At least that's the way I approached it. If you aren't genuinely willing to recognize and correct your mistakes once they've been pointed out, rather than be resentful when someone points out a mental abberation, and to take a step back to reevaluate it, thinking, "Well, maybe I missed something here and just can't see the criticism they're making," then you will never make any progress. Hit your head up against enough of those walls and you will eventually figure out that it's your ego that is holding you back. And, of course, that is the whole point of the lesson.


What I'm hoping you will accomplish is to distract yourself from the negative feedback you are feeding yourself long enough to relax and to begin enjoying your experience in meditation. As reverend father used to say, "There is never a bad meditation session. There is only one in which you didn't see the kernel of insight you should have seen, and your ego became frustrated. So you labled it as 'bad'."


What I'm suggesting you do is to divide your time between reading, researching, and pondering the discourses while at the same time maintaining a practice in meditation. It is a kind of Middle Way approach which I found to be very rewarding, and I think you, too, will find it rewarding. What you will find is, if you pick up a particular discourse and read it before your session in meditation you can contemplate it during your session. You will find that this can act as a kind of priming of the pump, so to speak, as you attend to your meditation session, using it as an insight session if you find it difficult to go deeper into a calming (samatha concentration developing) style meditation session. This way, you have a choice of subject/object matter when meditating (i.e. samatha or insight) and can proceed with whatever seems to be working in the moment. In other words, you may want to spend a few minutes calming the mind down using samatha techniques, then switch over to insight methods to ponder and reflect upon the discourse you just read. It will amaze you the kind of insight that may arise should you try this method.

Then, once you begin to accumulate some positive experiences in meditation, this may lead you to see how you have been blocking your own progress in meditation enough to realize how to begin loosening up and relaxing when going into a sit. Then, maybe some pointed instruction will help you begin to understand the degree to which you control (or create) your own experience during meditation enough that you are able to realize how to take the experience to deeper and deeper levels of calm and tranquility wherein you will be able to strengthen concentration abilities.


While the above highlighted thought is true, it is also true that one cannot just put all their eggs in one basket and expect that progress in that basket will carry them through. What occurs when no progress in that basket is made? It can create frustration which can lead a person to giving up completely.

Concentration ability is a developed skill. If you stop trying to develop it, it will never develop. So, making the effort, even when it seems that things are not going well, is part of paying one's dues in this aspect of the practice. Sooner or later you should begin to get a "feel" for how you created and encountered greater levels of concentration ability in the past and be able to apply that realization to your practice.

Samatha concentration states using Buddhist meditation techniques are among the most powerful yet simplest and most nuanced for practitioners to grasp the "feel" of. The reason for this is that everything worth paying attention to happens in the mental and sensual field of "vision," so you have to become acutely aware of these two aspects of your experience in order to figure out how to do this. The sensations can be so subtle that you might miss them if you weren't paying close enough attention. Then other times, they can just blow you out of the water they are so big that you cannot possibly miss them.

When I first started to read about dhyana meditation, the very first thing I wanted to know about was: "What did it feel like when one had accessed a dhyana state." Because I knew that if I could answer that question, then I would be able to gain access to it AT WILL. I just needed to KNOW (from direct experience) what they were talking about. Then I could figure out how to get there.

Oddly enough, one of the best clues as to what this state was like came from reading the Mahasaccaka Sutta in the Majjhima Nikaya (MN 36). It told about the occasion when Gotama himself first realized that the dhyana state might be a pathway to enlightenment. But it also gave me a clue as to how that state was materialized, and just exactly what it was! An extract from that passage follows below:


I recalled experiences from my childhood when I experienced a pleasant sensation in my head when I would swing on those leather saddle swings in a park that allowed you a nice long back swing and a long forward swing. It gave the sensation of being able to fly through the air. There were other instances where I recalled just calmly watching something (some peaceful event or other, could be just about anything) which I became absorbed in and a tingling sensation would arise inside the top of my head. That was what Gotama was talking about. (You see what I mean about reading the suttas; there are little clues there that can help you put two and two together.)

Similar experiences of concentration occurred when I would be reading an interesting book and became unmindful of the time that had passed because I had become so absorbed in reading the book. Just this is CONCENTRATION (also known as samadhi)! That pleasant absorption in an object of interest. Most people can point to having experienced similar occurrences.

Of course you are correct in saying that you "can't force it," meaning dropping down into an absorption state, or a similar state known as appana samadhi or fixed concentration. Appana samadhi is what I practice now. It allows one to use contemplation (insight meditation) in order to examine and analyze any object (or mental subject, like the teachings of the Dhamma) that one wishes to observe in order to gather more details about it.

In order to reach a state of appana samadhi, the best foreplay for that state is being able to attain to the fourth dhyana. The fourth dhyana is extremely quiet and profoundly peaceful and is the doorway to being able to attain to the four (or five, the fifth being the "cessation of perception and feeling" or sanna-vedayita-nirodha) immaterial dhyanas. Incidently, it is not necessary that one necessarily experience the immaterial dhyanas in pursuit of awakening. Being able to attain the first four are all that is necessary. Because they help one develop samadhi.

In order to have access to these states, as a meditator, one just has to be patient and relaxed and allow them to come to you, then not become overly excited when they do occur because you might upset them if you allow the mind too much movement. Once a meditator has experienced the fourth dhyana, it may occur to him that this is a stable enough state from which to use contemplation (or insight methods of meditation). And he may grow weary of having to go through the previous three stages of dhyana in order to obtain that fourth state. That is when he figures out that he can go directly to appana samadhi at the very start of his sit, and be there within two or three breaths. And then he is off to the races!

The fourth dhyana (from my experience) is a state where the meditator enters a profound state of tranquility where, unless the mind provokes them into existence, thoughts do not arise and one's awareness is only focused on the utter non-movement of the mind and the peace that this brings. When you get enough of that, though, mental inertia carries you over into something more meaningful wherein the mind is encouraged to engage in movement and thought. And this is when one can begin a practice in a more profound insight contemplation on matters pertaining to the Dhamma that Gotama taught.

Yet, it stands to reason that one should be able to contemplate these subtle teachings by just applying their own waking consciousness to these matters and to reap the same rewards as during meditation contemplation. So, it seems to me that any attention at all directed toward the Dhamma and its deeper understanding would be well worth the time spent, no matter whether one was a master in meditation or not. If you get around to reading Bhikkhu Bodhi's writings, you will find someone who understands the Dhamma quite well from an academic standpoint. I find it hard to believe that that hasn't also translated into a profound integration of the Dhamma into his psyche and personality. It is well known that Bodhi has suffered from migraine headaches all his life, and as a result has not always been able to perform a fruitful meditation practice. Do you see the implication? (I'm certain you do.)

The cultivation (bhavana) of the mind in meditation practice, however, is useful in helping the practitioner carry forward that tranquility into his waking consciousness in the form of a state called passaddhi which just means "calmness" or "tranquility" which permeates the mind of the practitioner after sitting meditation. When I experienced this in my own practice, the description of "a profound inner peace" came to mind as a better definition of this word. When you can extend this passaddhi or calmness for one, two, three hours or more after meditation and between sits, then you are in the midst of mastering mindfulness on a more or less uninterrupted basis in your conscious life. This, from my personal experience, is the pinnacle of the fruit of a meaningful practice in meditation.

So you see meditation, in and of itself, does not guarantee anyone enlightenment. It is what one does (in terms of investigation into the Dhamma) with the condition that these states provide for the stable mental landscape of the mind as a result of a fruitful practice in meditation that makes the difference!


Your #1 and #2 are very good insights. And yes, at all times learn to trust your intuition. That is how I made it as far as I have made it. By trusting my own counsel. And, as you say, "with a little help from my friends."

In peace,
Ian

I knew a thug on the Internet once, who supposedly was so disenchanted with his life of crime, drugs, sex, theft, whatever, that he toned down and started working a factory job, he brags that he has not touched anything hard (cocaine) in years, he still drinks I believe. The only problem I had is that when he switched his lifestyle to a more moderate one, his character declined incredibly.

There was nothing inspiring, dark, or charismatic about him anymore, nothing powerful. Whereas in the past, when he was doing whatever it was he was doing (selling, stealing, getting in fights, trouble, etc.) he was a much stronger, more moral and ethical person. Now, it's different.

It's funny because I met him in a chat room, when he was thugging, I rarely saw his face, he wore glasses that only reflected the glare of the monitor. Now I see his face all the time, his tameness took the life out of him.

The problem is that morality and strength go together, the more powerful, effort-ful, and driven you are: the more moral you are (read Nietzsche, and the conception of the Indriya in Buddhism: “whoever has abandoned these four bases of power has abandoned the noble path leading to the ending of suffering.”)

Ask me how we can have both tame, moderate, meek, weak, avoidant morality, and strength at the same time: I don't know the answer. It's unfortunate.

Perhaps it's evolution? I mean our history as human beings has been dominated by rape, pillage, murder, conquering, etc. Violence was pretty commonplace until just recently, even what are now called “cruel and unusual punishments.”

Perhaps people are over-civilized, and cowed by living in a large world, with people squished together in small numbers, making their survival dependent on being submissive. Perhaps the government and police state discourage any form of action and aggression, perhaps human beings are not cooperative, but since financial survival is dependent upon cooperation, human beings are not living the life they should?

A bunch of interesting questions come into play, I never really blame anyone for living the life they do, especially the OP of this thread. No one can know everything, and circumstances play a big part (just read about Elliot Rodger).

My roommate, who has no interest in spiritual or religious matters, who only wants to make a shit-ton of money and establish a business here so he doesn't have to go back to his home in India, and fund his lifestyle of food, Internet, weed, this house, his car, his girlfriend, etc. Whatever, his external life circumstances tell him he is supremely successful, because of this his body reacts to the success in such a way as to say: this is right, I am successful, I am good, I am moral. I have and got what I need, I can relax, I have sexual release, I have a safe domain (my house), I have food, I have abundance.

I have a business, etc. Because of these signals, his success grows, confidence begets confidence.

The drive left me a while ago, but it's interesting to observe these things, might have to do with biology.

Too many factors unfortunately, to take into account.

Of interest might be the "World Transformation Movement," involving Jeremy Griffith.

Cheers,

JJ

A big note for me: before I resolved the existential angst in my chest, I was “driven” per se, but my drive was chaotic and not under my control. I was histrionic and bipolar (not in the technical sense), I was my own worst enemy.

After reaching the unitive state, thereby curbing the aggression (but NOT in a fake, or restrained, effort-ful way), the energy just disappears down drain in the center of my being: where there used to be a plug of uncomfortable-ness.

This was more than 2 years ago.

Since then, after a bit more expansion and finessing or “practice,” I can sink, jhana, samadhi, absorb, fall out, cessate, whenever I want. In theory, in whatever situation, or position, I am sitting or standing in. I have never meditated formally at all, in my entire life, no discipline in that regard, whatsoever.

The reason I can sink, is because I have genuinely pierced that angst, and resolved that existential 'being' issue. If I tried to cultivate jhana or samadhi, all I could do is create something fake, or cultivate a “construction,” or a form of restraint, which is not going to work at all: it will disappear within seconds, and is definitely not permanent.

You need to be genuine or real, and have “no problems.” There is no shortcut.

It's kind of like trying to enjoy Netflix without having done your homework: you can't, no matter how much effort you put into it. Try day after day, and you won't succeed. But do your homework and you can do whatever the fuck you want.

I rarely jhana anymore, even though it is open to me, and there is little I gain from it. But at times I have, for example when I was riding in a golf cart, or whatever.

Edit:

Basically, cultivations or constructions don't work. They are sankhara, to put a Buddhist spin on it. They will fall by the wayside, find something real, actual, unconditioned, eternal: genuine or sincere, not fake. Everything else comes after that.

---

This is also why the work requires brutal honesty, not tame avoidance, retirement, or misappropriating being quiet, secluded, sheltered, blissful, or reclusive as being spiritual or moral. Those are definitely not at all the case. Resolve all the issues at the center of your being, be so honest that it burns a hole in you: that's what you're supposed to do.

Then you won't be a “piece of shit” anymore, and you probably won't feel the need to seclude yourself in an apartment and meditate all day, which obviously you can't do, because both you and God have not given you permission to do that, yet.

Even then, it doesn't appear any religious tradition found value in seclusion, the Zennists prize equanimity in the marketplace: BUT YOU CANNOT CULTIVATE THAT.

Bye.

Edit 2:

The emphasis is on cultivation, you cannot cultivate those things, because they are based on effort (which is impermanent and imperfect), and so any attainment in that regard can be wiped out and put back to square one: Tower of Babel anyone?

What you need to find is a real cornerstone, or truth, genuineness, not avoidance, sincerity, and honesty, with which you can bank on anything: yes, this almost nearly means death.

But if you have that, you have a lot, or maybe even infinite, maybe even everything, maybe even the truth? Because everything can be based upon this.

Even when I reached the unitive state, the only thing in this world that can possibly be misconstrued as Spiritual Enlightenment (which doesn't exist by the way), I felt nothing wanting. From the age of 16, I just wanted to consummate my being and/or die, and I saw that it was impossible. The circumstances were imperfect, and I wouldn't succeed for millions of years, and I would die in hell.

4 years later, after conscious struggle, following, obeying the pull, seeking the angst and grace, submitting (not passively, i.e. following the gravity or pull. I succeeded. That friction or angst was miraculously done away with, in a way so precise (it could not be faked), that it had to have God as the cause, the puzzle pieces were aligned, the atoms were misplaced, whatever, knot untied (blah blah blah).

A few months later I expanded the center and entered a mind-blowing jhana for the first time, I have never meditated in my entire life. Even now such experiences are open to me if I want them, I could feel as if my body were really tiny (the size of a pin), and my head was massive: enveloping the entire universe.

But it means nothing.

Bodhisattvas trash those experiences and take on suffering, they empty the depths of hell.

After this unitive state, I was only 20-21, and I found that I had already achieved what I presumed to be my lifelong goal, yet I was still here, just a young kid, what the fuck am I supposed to do?

Nothing but suffer, be misunderstood, and wholeheartedly take on this shitty life, with a compassion that only a divine-center can muster, it cannot be faked, it is real and genuine. I see everyone going, getting along, the same as me, I see everyone's beauty, the same divine in everyone, there is no difference between me and others.

Even in just a physical sense, after having this mind-blowing (but not really, there is no degree, it's just absolute) “experience,” it would appear I have suffered “more.” So what gives?

The point is to complete life, 100%, live it all. No one gets out alive, no experience will be left unturned: but this time I have a true basis to start from. I get to live my entire life properly, the way it was meant to be lived. That's the point.

It appears you're 40 and you haven't even gotten there yet, that is sad. You should start.

The new thread can be found at http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/5798022.

Split to keep thread on track.

On the topic of Asperger's and attempting to pique your interest in bodywork, here's an excellent essay
http://www.michaelsamsel.com/Content/Asperger/Asperger's%20Mind%20Body%20Approach.pdf

This also,
http://reichandlowentherapy.org/Content/Character/Schizoid/asperger's.html

For an alternative concentration practice candle flame meditation is useful. The focus is initially neither on the body nor a visualization but a candle flame then a retina burn. Fire is naturally fascinating.

Thanks Ian, yes, enough to know that anything worthwhile takes a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Perhaps the view you present is contrarian to many of the opinions on this site, but seems pretty consistent with what I've learned about Dhamma to date.



Found the song on YouTube and loved it! And point taken; I'm starting to get an idea of your own process of stepping back, re-evaluating things afresh, and starting again carefully and methodically with original scriptures. I like the approach of trying to put yourself in the mind of the young Gotama, in his historical, tribal, and family context.



Extremely helpful quote.



Already enjoying some initial research, just looking through the access to insight website to begin with. And really stepping back and looking at the basic teachings again. I've compiled a reading list based on the post you linked to and some suggestions by Sakari and will look at ordering some printed books too.



I've never actually "contemplated" or pondered teachings or koans during meditation, so this will be new to me. Usually it's been a more mechanical approach with minimal thinking; for example, Goenka's body scanning.



I've had similar experiences when reading. Also when writing an essay or thesis at university (often referred to as "flow" when you're deeply absorbed in a task).



My meditation sessions have already improved, will post a summary of the approach I've taken at some stage. But just relaxing and accepting seem to have made a lot of difference, plus paying closer attention to the subtle sensations.

I've never experienced jhana, so I've been looking for clear instructions on the causes/conditions; this seems potentially helpful:

http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm



Based on my personal experience with migraines in my teens (and some research I did a few years ago for a journal article on the neural and physiological correlates), anxiety and stress can be important contributing factors. I would have thought a highly-awakened being would be pretty much free of these negative emotions.



And I thank you sincerely Ian for your support and friendship in this thread. I feel like I have a way forward now!

Hi JJ, thanks for your comments, quite a whirlwind of thoughts and some very interesting points (I think you'd enjoy studying evolutionary psychology by the way). Just briefly regarding living life to the full and attaining material success and love in the world; believe it or not I've well and truly been there already and learned the hard way that this approach doesn't bring lasting happiness (not for me anyway). But I think I'm now close to moving past the particular stumbling blocks in my practice that sparked my call for help, so all good!

Thanks again and all the best.

Thanks very much for the links DD, I'm reading through the Samsel material on Asperger's and will look at the link on Reich too. 

Re candle meditation, actually I had noticed a few recommendations about that on this forum, so I tried it the other night and did find it really helpful. The second time I tried it though I wasn't as focused. Seems my mind responds well to novelty but quickly gets bored! Still, things have been gradually improving by combining this (and some other ideas) with making a more determined effort and having slightly shorter meditation sessions (quality over quantity).

Thanks again.

My difficulties are quite well reflected in this extract from Ajahn Sumedho; perhaps others can relate to this too:

"Now if you’re coming purely from willpower - ‘I’ve got to get this -’ and ‘I want to attain the jhanas’, then this kind of effort is a joyless wilfulness. It’s ‘me’ – at least this is how I experienced it. In the beginning, a lot of it was pretty joyless because I was so wilful. That’s all I knew: how to operate from striving, making myself do things, disciplining myself and trying to attain states. This idea of attainment – getting something – was a very strong, very habitual pattern, but it was also joyless; it made the monastic life a joyless grind. There was too much intensive ‘me’ trying to get something from it and demanding results. And so I wasn’t developing the requirements of jhana practice in any way. I started from reading the Visuddhimagga and trying to attain these levels of concentration according to what I read in books. It was interpreted by the ego and put into practice through sheer wilfulness, with me trying to succeed and ‘get’ something. Even when I would be concentrated, there was always this sense of loss."
...
"There is the tendency to be always wanting something you don’t have: a higher standard of living or in meditation, some kind of attainment. What is it like to always feel you’re not good enough and you have to get something that will improve this? So that even when you come to the meditation hall, you’re sitting in meditation in order to obtain something. That pushy movement of the mind: it’s very unpleasant when you see this attitude of ‘I’ve got to get something I don’t have; I’ve got to get rid of my bad thoughts, my bad moods.’ You’re always having to do something. This is the bhava-tanha, vibhava-tanha, the second Noble Truth, the cause of suffering: grasping, desire for becoming or desire to get rid of something. Wanting something is always based on idealizing or remembering." 

"But that which is aware of this puts the ‘wanting’ into a perspective where you can see it and recognize the suffering you create by attaching to it, being caught in these desires, and enslaved by these desires. It feels like something’s always wrong; and when I get something, wanting to keep it and then getting very upset if somebody disrupts my concentration. I used to get very selfish and annoyed in the meditation hall about really minor things: somebody moving around and making a noise like people coughing and nylon jackets with Velcro fastenings. You recognize that it’s like this because you don’t want that; you don’t want that noise or disruption. You’re trying to get or keep hold of something you like. Bhava-tanha, vibhava-tanha causes a control-freak attitude. It’s something that meditators often get. It’s not a peaceful state; it’s always under threat. If I lose control or if somebody misbehaves, then my mental state is affected and I’m controlled by resentment or anger."

- Ajahn Sumedho - The Wheel of Truth

Edit: Added two more paragraphs from the book.