Ernest Michael Olmos:
I agree with what you say about the 3Cs, ultimate reality, comprehension, etc.
I don't agree about the stages, at least from my experience.
For me at least, AP involved energy and, while there was comprehension, there was what you say as "conceptualy noticing" the 3Cs.
Fruition on the other hand, was quiet, luminous, calm. Like perceiving the 3Cs differently.
I can relate to two very different experiences:
1. Noticing everything, panoramic awareness, evaluating thoughts, watching them go by, etc. This requires some effort to sustain.
2. Focusing on vibrations, usually in the middle of the head. This results in luminosity. It changes perception a lot more. It seems more similar to the moment before fruition to me.
It could be useful if you could describe the experience of genuine comprehension, basically if there is a blip or not.
If there is not a blip, if similar things that occur before the blip happen.And you have to admit that even if the 3Cs all refer to emptiness, the way you experience things is what counts. You have to work with what you have (and understand) as you progress in the path. Trying to do or relate to something beyond your reach can stall your practice.
I can only talk from my experience, which is not that much

.
Hi Ernest, thanks for the comments. I agree with you that there is conceptual noticing of the 3 C's, but what I am really trying to define here is the mechanism by which we switch from the 3C's stage into the A and P. The first three stages in the cycle of insight seem to have a natural progression over time, but the transition to the A and P is special because it represents the entrance to the dark night. Since the A and P represents the entrance to a new and higher stage of practice, I think it makes sense to treat it as a 'mini' path moment.
IMO, part of the reason people come to the path of meditation is that they are seeking more than simply 'better thoughts'. Meditators have likely realized they cannot simply think their way into a greater state of happiness, and instead they are seeking a genuine change in mind, or perception. The reason meditation is special is because it allows us to gain access to mind beyond the normal veils of conceptual thought. So while I agree that we do conceptually notice the 3 characteristics, any genuine path moment involves more than simple conceptual noticing, it involves genuine perception beyond conceptual thought.
So to put these things together, I clearly remember early in my meditative exprience having an experience in which a thought (conceptuality itself) arose in my mind, was seen clearly to be naught but a thought (not me, impermenant, and not capable of providing lasting satisfaction), and then passed away, out of my mind forever. As I read over the
traditional (Mahasi Sayadaw) description of the A and P, I realised that this experience of seeing a thought for what it was could very well be an experience of genuine comprehension; the peak of the 3 C's stage, and the entrance to the A and P.
I thought I would share this insight on here, because it seems that in the DhO community, the A and P is defined chiefly by its strong after effects, rather than by the experience that triggers it. A focus on the A and P stictly as an energetic experience may miss the significance of it somewhat, and also err by painting a differing energetic experiences with too broad a brush.
Regardless, all of this is in some sense a very subtle experience. If we are to use the cycle of insight as a dyagnostic tool to help us practice according to our own specific level, it is helpful to have a wide varietey of criterisa for each stage. I don't think my definition of the A and P should replace that which we already have, but simply be added to consideration.
I fully believe in the veracity and usefullness of the cycle of insight, and of the 4 paths of MCTB, but for many meditators these experiences are too perhaps subtle to serve as major indicators of experience. I have great interest in the Tibetan Buddhist meditative tradition, in which it is very difficult to find a comparable path to that outlined in MCTB. The 4th path experience of MCTB seems to line up with the initial attainment of emptiness in the Tibetan tradition, which serves as the completion attainment of th Hinayana, and entrance attainment to the Mahayana. The Hinayana path of progression in Tibetan Buddhism is simply characterised as 'repeated glimspes of emptiness', until one day genuine attainment is gained. When I compare the Mahayana path of attainment in Tibetan Buddhism to the MCTB 'Hinayana' path of attainment, it is frankly unsuprising that Tibetan Buddhism does not establish a path of attainment for the Hinayana, because the Mahayana attainments are much more clear and easily described in their effect on perception. This is to say the the MBTC path is both unique and special, but also extremely subtle and difficult to discuss.
Noah:
First path would then represent the first (small) stage in overcoming our delusional fixation on thought, while 4th path represents a major breakthrough in perception of thoughts true nature (seeing that thoughts are empty of inherant existance or meaning).
I felt like your OP had a strong voice in defining the mechanistic-conceptual significance of the 4th nana, and that D was asking for a similar level of rigor in regards to how you view the other milestones. So what is second path? Is it just a repeated cycle, or could this shift of perception be modelled/represented in a way that is inherently different from 1st? And why does 3rd path happen after an indeterminate number of cycles? What is it that must shift inside for 3rd path to occur? Noah - I'm not sure what DW wants, but if you would like a description of these path I would be happy to discuss it. I gave give a brief outline.
As I said above (see the paragraph just before your quote

) the MCTB paths are very subtle, and I'm not sure there is even much agreement on them among those who claim them, but here is my view:
0. Our starting point is complete conceptual fixation. There are three components to this - awareness, thoughts, and ignorance. Due to the presence of ignorance, our naturally timeless and ultimate nature has become utterly fixated on relative conceptual thought such that we believe coneptuality to be utterly solid and inherantly real.
0.5 At the A and P, we glimpse the (true) immaterial nature of thought and are thrust into the Dark Night, where though we have seen conceptuality to be false, we are still utterly bound in our perception of thoughts as solid and inherantly real.
1. At first path we overcome a small subset of ignorance, and thus gain a small measure of freedom. The mechanism for first path seems to be a moment in which wo completely cease our striving (aka the peak of equnimity), and as a result gain a new freedom of perception. After words we feel light and happy as though some small burden has been released.
2. Second path is very ill-defined, but for me it occured as a visual/ perceptua distiurabance, and afterwords I felt somewhat more mature regarding the path athought there was no clear frution or subsequent review cycle. After 2nd path we should have stable access to the first 4 Jhanas.
3. The cycle of insight between 1st and 2nd path is extrememyl indestinct, and this is also true for that between 2nd and 3rd. Eventually we have some kind of seemingly-logical conclusion to a stream of thought, where we may feel/think something like, 'the cycle is complete'. This is a relatively well deffined path moment (experientially). After the 3rd path the main shift in perception is greatly increased confidence. I know I read about this on here
- this thread - , and also this was my personal experience as well as that of a friend of mine.
After 3rd path we should have stable access to all 8 Jhanas, and as well be able to attain Nirodah Sampatti.
After 3rd path we do go through many noticible cycle of insight, first slowly i.e. one every couple of weeks, then faster, i.e. one every couple of days, the very fast, up to several cycle in a single session of meditation. At this point when we are just speeding through the cycles, each competed cycle seems to make less and less of a difference to our perception, and we begin to look for something beyond the cycles. Rapidly completing cycles is a sign we are getting close to 4th path.
4. When 4th path occurs it is as though a great space has opened up in our minds. We now experience a contrast between relative thought, and ultimate space (or awareness). When a thought arises in our minds, it is seen in relation to our percetion of ultimate space, and its relative truth is negated, or seen as it is; relative, and not ultimate true. Thus, in the Mahayana this first attainment is described as seeing that form is emptiness, aka form is empty, or form is negated by emptiness.
Cheers! Long post, but interesting stuff! Sorry for the spelling issues ;)