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Question to Arhats Michał G. 12/1/15 12:36 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Michał G. 12/1/15 2:24 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/1/15 3:19 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Derek 12/1/15 4:28 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Michał G. 12/2/15 1:52 AM
RE: Question to Arhats tom moylan 12/2/15 3:27 AM
RE: Question to Arhats John Power 12/2/15 1:55 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Michał G. 12/3/15 12:16 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/3/15 2:10 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/3/15 8:43 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/4/15 4:41 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/4/15 8:19 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/4/15 1:56 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/4/15 4:23 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/4/15 6:37 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/4/15 11:12 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/4/15 9:03 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/4/15 4:36 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/4/15 5:58 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/4/15 6:33 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Psi 12/4/15 7:29 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/4/15 11:29 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/4/15 11:06 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/5/15 11:20 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/5/15 10:15 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Daniel M. Ingram 12/6/15 2:21 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/6/15 4:09 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/7/15 12:52 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/7/15 5:55 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/7/15 5:58 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/7/15 6:18 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/7/15 12:17 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Psi 12/7/15 1:05 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/7/15 6:03 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Psi 12/7/15 10:02 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/7/15 8:01 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/9/15 7:29 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/9/15 7:15 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/3/15 6:16 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Marek Mark 12/6/15 4:43 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/2/15 2:08 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Michał G. 12/2/15 3:00 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Chris Marti 12/2/15 9:23 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Matthew 12/2/15 10:50 AM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/2/15 12:50 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Eva Nie 12/2/15 1:07 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Noah 12/2/15 3:05 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Banned For waht? 12/2/15 2:22 PM
RE: Question to Arhats Psi 12/4/15 10:15 PM
Question to Arhats
Answer
12/1/15 12:36 PM
We all know that celibacy is a theme present in many religions. Many enlightened masters were celibate and it's not like they were forcing themselves, they say that sexual desire drops after awakening.

Since we have some arhats here, if you are one please answer honestly from your own experience, do sexual desires still arise?

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/1/15 2:24 PM as a reply to Michał G..
Paweł K:

Why do you ask? Are you asexual yourself or are you affraid of becoming one?

I am not asexual but that would be actually convenient because I don't want to be ruled by sexual desire. I don't want my biology to force me to seek women to mate with, I might want to do that with a person that I am connected to emotionally, when one has found a good partner then sexual activity can be beautiful but I don't want to be forced to seek a woman to release the build up tension.

Also I would not want to masturbate, not that there is something wrong with it but I just don't want to because in my experience it is never worth it, it doesn't feel good afterwards and it's just loss of energy. I have been experimenting with celibacy but after two weeks the tension is so unbearable that I can't function so I give myself orgasm not for pleasure, but just to get rid of that huge tension so I can move on with the day and stuff to do.

I would love to be able to abstain from sexual acitivity and thoughts that's why I ask. So far I go middle way, resort to it only when I can't stand the tension and it disturbs my life.

And the question remains, to Arhats here and anyone else willing to share their experience

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/1/15 3:19 PM as a reply to Michał G..
My experience has been that awakening induces no change to the biological part of being human. Desires remain in regard to eating, sleeping, sex, and so on, just as they were before awakening. Human nature is human nature. Awakening cannot and does not change that.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/1/15 4:28 PM as a reply to Michał G..
If you're looking for support, why not join that "no fap" group that someone told us to Google a few weeks ago? https://www.reddit.com/r/nofap

I doubt that anyone who had achieved the Pali canon (ten-fetter) definition of "arhat" would be spending time reading Internet message boards. For what it's worth, the Pali canon says that sex-desire has disppeared already at the non-returner stage. Sex-desire is one of the five lower fetters. Of course, Daniel and others have their own definition of "arhat" which differs from the canonical one.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 1:52 AM as a reply to Derek.
Yes I'm aware of nofap, and this thread wasn't supposed to be about me anyway, I was just curious because of this ever present emphasis on celibacy in some religions and how it truly is in experience of Arhats.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 1:55 AM as a reply to Michał G..
Michał G.:
Paweł K:

Why do you ask? Are you asexual yourself or are you affraid of becoming one?

I am not asexual but that would be actually convenient because I don't want to be ruled by sexual desire. I don't want my biology to force me to seek women to mate with, I might want to do that with a person that I am connected to emotionally, when one has found a good partner then sexual activity can be beautiful but I don't want to be forced to seek a woman to release the build up tension.

Also I would not want to masturbate, not that there is something wrong with it but I just don't want to because in my experience it is never worth it, it doesn't feel good afterwards and it's just loss of energy. I have been experimenting with celibacy but after two weeks the tension is so unbearable that I can't function so I give myself orgasm not for pleasure, but just to get rid of that huge tension so I can move on with the day and stuff to do.

I would love to be able to abstain from sexual acitivity and thoughts that's why I ask. So far I go middle way, resort to it only when I can't stand the tension and it disturbs my life.

And the question remains, to Arhats here and anyone else willing to share their experience
Well, there are a few things you can do to lessen the desire to have sex and thus lessen the tension. Not in a particular order.
- Make meditation more pleasurable (more shamata/jhana/concentration/welcoming/acceptance). I am currently also investigating how to enter into jhana.
- Start working out, release the tension by moving your body. Personally I do calisthenics, that means using your bodyweight to train your body. The nice thing is you can do it anywhere. Be the best you can be, physically and mentally, these go hand in hand. So when you have the desire to release the tension through orgasm, think about the energy loss. You could work out or meditate or do other wholesome things with that energy.
- Thinking about if this is really beneficial and this is the way you want to go. To carry on where I left at the previous point, there are a lot of other things you can use that energy for. As a human being you have limited energy, so chosing how you use it is important. Love yourself enough to work towards the best you can be, meaning taking care of your mind and body.
Your perception starts to shift from ´I need to release this tension, please let anybody help me (have sex with me, show me porn, or in general relief)´ to ´I can use this energy beneficial and if anyone want some of it, then they have to confince me´. Instead of  neediness, you become more independant because you can use that energy. So find a goal to use that energy towards and that energy becomes more valuable, so you don´t wast it that easily.

One last link that might be helpfull: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGeOeISnb6M

Btw: I am certainly not an Arahat.

Hope that helps. All the best.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 2:08 AM as a reply to Michał G..
@OP:

I don't like the term "arhat", but I have experienced path shifts.  Just to play devil's advocate, in relation to some of the previous replies, I would like to say that path shifts do do permanent things that are helpful and healing from a relative/conventional point of view.  That is as far as it goes, however.  You can not predict what relative qualities or aspects it will improve, and how much.  You can not predict which paths will do this, or any at all.  Also, as you improve psychologically, you become more sensitive to your condition.  "Suffering less, noticing it more"- Bill Hamilton.  You might get more horny, or have the same libido but more awareness of it.  

I have wanted to, and still wish for, a deadening or desensitizing effect as a result of meditation.  What I am finding is that this is simply not possible, yet aspects of my inner and outer life, including sexuality, are very slowly being improved nonetheless.  

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 3:00 AM as a reply to Noah.
Thanks for the replies. I am working out (calisthenics also, I love it) and it's good use of energy for sure. Even though asexuality would be convenient, I don't make it a big deal, just playing with ideas and experiment with this sexual energy.

First of all I was just curious about what 4th path achievers have to say about it, how they experience it. The more I investigate, the more my ideas about enlightenment shatter (which is a good thing). I guess it's not much more than a shift in perception and understanding.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 3:27 AM as a reply to Michał G..
in daniel's MCTB the unrealistic qualities and expectations of people who have certain attainments is mentioned many times. 

its difficult to pin down the source and to find the common reason behind different traditions' insistence or doctrinaire emphasis upon celibacy.  the reasons for catholic priests strictures are not necessarily the same as those of ordained buddhist monks, but maybe someone could show distant comon roots.

i remember reading kalu rinpoche and he highly reccomended that young men refrain from sexual release due to the energetic benefits of doing so.  he didn't base it on sila. 

the basic charnel ground practices and contemplations of the body are designed to help attenuate the attractiveness of the human body and thus to help move the fascination with sexual desire (amoung other things) to the less carnal, but this is at the other end of the pipeline.

your question is really "is it possible to be an arahant and still have sexual interest"?  n'est pas?

i think that was  answered above.  some have that interes, some not.  i am no arahant though.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 9:23 AM as a reply to Michał G..
First of all I was just curious about what 4th path achievers have to say about it, how they experience it. The more I investigate, the more my ideas about enlightenment shatter (which is a good thing). I guess it's not much more than a shift in perception and understanding.

It's a huge shift in how you view the world and what you think of as yourself and how that "fits in" with everything you think of as "other". It may have large effects on your demeanor and your behavior, mainly because your foibles and other traits have been revealed to you more clearly and you may feel the need to do something about them. It just doesn't change your biology. Anyone who says it does, or who makes claims that you will lose your sex drive, or whatever, seem to rely on old texts, folklore and ancient scriptures. Living, breathing human beings exist who have made path transitions up to and beyond the 4th path referenced in MCTB, and those folks, IMHO, have a more reliable story to tell.

JMHO, of course, but based on my experience.


RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 10:50 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Two posters here plausibly (IMHO) claim to have eliminated sense desire & aversion: Omega Point (Tibetan tradition) and Chuck Kasmire (Thai Forest). There's also DhO user An Eternal Now's teacher, Suchness. I speculate that the biological underpinnings or machinery associated with sense desire/aversion are still functioning in these individuals (ex. their bodies might exhibit a fear response when subjected to physical pain), but the output of those mechanisms never reaches the conscious mind.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 12:50 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
First of all I was just curious about what 4th path achievers have to say about it, how they experience it. The more I investigate, the more my ideas about enlightenment shatter (which is a good thing). I guess it's not much more than a shift in perception and understanding.

It's a huge shift in how you view the world and what you think of as yourself and how that "fits in" with everything you think of as "other". It may have large effects on your demeanor and your behavior, mainly because your foibles and other traits have been revealed to you more clearly and you may feel the need to do something about them.

I would agree with that part, plus the quote from another about 'suffer less, notice it more.' 

It just doesn't change your biology. Anyone who says it does, or who makes claims that you will lose your sex drive, or whatever, seem to rely on old texts, folklore and ancient scriptures.
From my experience, I would not exactly agree with this.  I have experienced times when I had very strong sexual drives and other times when for long stretches it was at zero.  I also knew another that experienced such changes and such is well know to happen often in the kundalini literature (contemporary experiences, not ancient folklore).  I would suggest that there definitely can be and are biological changes as one moves along the path, just that they are not super predictable.  Also consider that the pleasureable experiences along the path can be stronger and better than those from ordinary sex and eventually you may realize that you can get even better experiences than sex just from the mind (or wherever that stuff comes from) and without any physical sex or partner needed. And you don't need to be an arhat to experience those things. 

For myself , there has been a variety of ups and downs but mostly now it seems my drive for a physical sex life is much diminished.  I also no longer feel I need a male in my life in order to feel complete or happy which is more of a psychological issue.  Over time, I have very much changed my attitude about all that stuff, the drive for a mate, sex, etc, it's just not a big deal anymore.  But I would not go so far to say that I have zero drive, woudl be incapable, etc.  I also do think that historically, things tend to be exagerated over time and nuances are lost as experiences are repeated by those who don't really fully  understand them until tendencies and trends may sound more like rules or laws.  I think it is often like a game of telephone.  And also that there is a great deal of individual variation for each along the path.  But there is probably a tendency for those who are not far on the path to look at one who is much further and assume that to be a template of how it will always be for everyone, which may be an overly rigid assumption.  But I would not go so as to say biology does not ever change.  I think there are a lot of factors that biology is influence by.

I will also say that I don't know what may happen 30 years from were I am now but I would guess my perspectives my continue to change.  I try not to have too many assumptions and mental limits on what is possible.  I suspect most are limited by their own beliefs long before they get to any actual physical limits, so I like to try to see how far I can get by letting go of mental limits.
-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 1:07 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:

I have wanted to, and still wish for, a deadening or desensitizing effect as a result of meditation.  What I am finding is that this is simply not possible, yet aspects of my inner and outer life, including sexuality, are very slowly being improved nonetheless.  

Do you really want a deadening? You may be trying to swim against the flow if that is your goal.  Sorry if I sound like a nitpicking pain the butt, but I am a big fan of paying attention to nuance in thought processes and scripts that you tell yourself but I am really not trying to be an old nag (at least not on purpose).  If you want to be less ruled by sex, a route of perspective shift instead of direct deadening may well eventually get you there.  I would just be careful of already assuming a belief of 'simply not possible,' when more realistically it is simply that you are not there now but have a long life ahead of you in which you will continue to change and grow and who knows what interesting and cool things may happen.
-Eva 

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 2:22 PM as a reply to Michał G..
Manual downflowing release. Karmic retribution. After effect is feeling of being done something bad. Feeling of disgust. Empty loneliness feeling.

When lust rises, then think about the aftereffects(try to see them in your imagination) while at the same time being equanimous with emptiness and aware of the feeling of lust. Let the aversion to it disappear, notice counterpart effects are feeling good, dwell in these feelings.

At first its just maintaining discipline, celibacy and knowing it will end while doing it you will at some point just know what to do. Gaining expereince it gets more elaborate of course.

Breathing stage:
when you using breathing then at some point energies will rise to the center of the brain causing pressure to it. Focus now to the upper head and pressure moves upward to the front of you(while watching the space(third eyes, frontal lobe etc area)) there is this something nonluminous what will move directly to the lower centers, this will cause nonseminal release at night(perhaps during a lucid dream) and then sexual desire rise.

Having thousands of moments of experience you will connect the dots by yourself, starting with nothing. I watch countless hours of drama, participate on these games, music, art, fantasy etc. Thing is some part of the brain needs to figure and witness while you play around.
Excellent is when you happen to read other people comments and compare it with your own thinking. Going for work is shock, so little data. Meditation is arousing faceplam events from past.

-----long story short:
Seems like nanas/jhanas. Try to see different jhana factors while trying to get to the next one. The object is whatever is present now, maybe its the hero killing smurfs, just notice also the feelings and thoughts too what are in play at the same time..

i think that whatever you are aware of is not a fetter. Sensual pleasure is just another object we can jhana it.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/2/15 3:05 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva:

Do you really want a deadening? You may be trying to swim against the flow if that is your goal.  Sorry if I sound like a nitpicking pain the butt, but I am a big fan of paying attention to nuance in thought processes and scripts that you tell yourself but I am really not trying to be an old nag (at least not on purpose).  If you want to be less ruled by sex, a route of perspective shift instead of direct deadening may well eventually get you there.  I would just be careful of already assuming a belief of 'simply not possible,' when more realistically it is simply that you are not there now but have a long life ahead of you in which you will continue to change and grow and who knows what interesting and cool things may happen.


I want relief.  I started up with meditation again the past week and some pretty cool relief has already been happening.  I have hope for further insight development.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/3/15 12:16 PM as a reply to Michał G..
Paweł K:


Especially that I think that you believe that not being actually actratted to women is caused by masturbation and that is why you reject it so much. 


But I am attracted to women. The thing is, that I see them as beautiful beings, not just as a sex object. Whether I am horny or completely turned off I always like everything about women, the hair, eyes, body shape, everything but not in a sexual way. More like a beautiful art.

The problem is that when sexual drive kicks in. I can handle it until it eventually becomes super strong and I just can't stop thinking about having sex. So this is the place to clarify what I have problem with: I see sex as a waste of time and animalistic behaviour. Thus I consider it a waste of time (with the exception of having a life partner you can connect with on intellectual, emotional and THEN physical level - then it's wonderful). That's why I ask does it drop after some milestone in spiritual progress, because I would like to be free from it if that's an option.

Let me emphasize it again. I have no judgement about either sex with partner, or masturbation and I am even willing to accept it as a part of being human. It's ok! It just would be nice to be able to drop it completely because it just doesn't align with my values and preferred lifestyle.

Orgasm does not use any energy. You feel drained and bad because you did it against yourself and to get relief. Did I ever mention anything about relief seeking being terribly bad for you before? =P Before orgasm you seek relief which is basically trying to experiencince certain sensation which you should be already experiencing which you do not experience because you seek them as relief. Then you have orgasm and instead of getting it it disappears and there is something else. You then do not experience this something else but seek for this sensation that you were supposedly to get. And because you are not experiencing this new sensations you miss them too but mentally cannot differentiate what you miss and threw it into this 'energy' bag.

I only meant that after orgasm, males usually feel sleepy. That's a natural physiological reaction caused by body releasing... something ( I don't remember what was it).


To summarize, there are basically two kinds of celibacy: forced celibacy (for whatever reason) and natural celibacy (for whatever reason). Some spiritual teachers said that after reaching some level of enlightenment it becomes effortless, you just simply lose interest in sex. And this is what I was curious about, because in MCTB model 4th path is 'the' enlightenment, the last stage. There are some Arahants here so I was curious to see what they have to say about it.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/3/15 2:10 PM as a reply to Michał G..
 Some spiritual teachers said that after reaching some level of enlightenment it becomes effortless, you just simply lose interest in sex. And this is what I was curious about, because in MCTB model 4th path is 'the' enlightenment, the last stage. There are some Arahants here so I was curious to see what they have to say about it.

Some spiritual teachers who claim 4th path also say they no longer have a temper or get impatient, and so on. Yet when you meet them in person and spend time with them you find that they're perfectly capable of losing their temper just like everyone else. Again, I'd be skeptical of claims like this. Human nature is pretty immutable and in my experience, and the experience of others I know with 4th path "behind" them, none of these claims turn out to be the case.

Also, I don't think 4th path is the "last stage" whatever that might mean. I don't think there is such a thing.



RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/3/15 6:16 PM as a reply to Michał G..
Paweł K:
Michał G.:
I am not asexual but that would be actually convenient because I don't want to be ruled by sexual desire. I don't want my biology to force me to seek women to mate with, I might want to do that with a person that I am connected to emotionally, when one has found a good partner then sexual activity can be beautiful but I don't want to be forced to seek a woman to release the build up tension.

Asexuality can come in two flavors, one is when you are sex repulsed and second is when you are not sex repulsed but are repulsed at thought of doing it yourself though it might seem as if you are not interested in doing it yourself. I am latter type and from what I see here you might be too. I see women as attractive (that is if they are XD) but do not desire to have sex with them. All you wrote is valid for me too which is that I do not feel the same urges that 99% of other people do, urges that make them wanna actually have sex and make it such an important thing in their lives. I find this push of society on having partner to be ridiculous and while I even once had crush on one girl I didn't really think about her or idea of being together but the rush of endorphins itself and mind states it produced. 
I would only say it slightly differently, that sex has become a preference that has only weak pull or no pull.  For instance, I like vanilla ice cream but the desire is not strong enough to cause me angst either way.  Getting it or not getting it, it's just not a big deal.  I would not at all say I feel repulsed by it nor am incapable of it, it's just not particularly important anymore.  And that goes with how my general attitude about sex is.  I don't think it is bad in itself, but like any time there is strong desire in a person for a particular thing, it can lead to a lot of emotional angst and sometimes unsavory behavior (like dishonesty) and can distract from other things that might be more useful in the long run. The happiness it brings tends to be quite fleeting and the suffering it brings often is more than the happiness.  ;-P   

To be Arhat (actually Stream Enterer, but because of already ridiculously low insight level in dharma communities in this dharma ending age lets say we talk about being Arhat) means to be in jhana and not seek relief by: fapping, not fapping, having sex, not having sex, meditating, not meditating, entering absorption states, not entering absorption states, having fruition, not having fruition, seeing 3C, not seeing 3C, noticing, not noticing, eating ice cream, not eating ice cream, doing something else, not doing something else, etc. Jhana is done not for relief but because of preference to be in jhana and in bliss and not to seek relief and suffer.
Those things are more of a distraction than a relief anyway.  They only give a tiny bit of temporary relief but IMO cause more trouble than the relief you get.  Because it's all clinging and the more the clinging, the more angst when you don't get it.  It's like cigarette smoking.  When people are puffing, they feel 'relief' from the addiction, but the prob is not the desire for relief or even the puffing exactly, the prob is the addiction itself and clinging that causes the desire for relief.  The only way to get 'relief' permanently is to not have that clinging desire in the first place.  Lots of people hate that they smoke and wish to quit, but the repulsion mixes with the desire and does not stop it.  I would argue that being repulsed is not a clear way to not desire it, the two can easily coexist and you end up even more miserable.  But how DO you get rid of the addictions to things in life?  Too bad I don't have any easy answers!  ;-P
-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/3/15 8:43 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
 Some spiritual teachers said that after reaching some level of enlightenment it becomes effortless, you just simply lose interest in sex. And this is what I was curious about, because in MCTB model 4th path is 'the' enlightenment, the last stage. There are some Arahants here so I was curious to see what they have to say about it.

Some spiritual teachers who claim 4th path also say they no longer have a temper or get impatient, and so on. Yet when you meet them in person and spend time with them you find that they're perfectly capable of losing their temper just like everyone else. Again, I'd be skeptical of claims like this. Human nature is pretty immutable and in my experience, and the experience of others I know with 4th path "behind" them, none of these claims turn out to be the case.

Also, I don't think 4th path is the "last stage" whatever that might mean. I don't think there is such a thing.

I really don't know what is possible over the long haul, how far one might go, etc.  I certainly have times when I feel like temper and impatience are just not an option at that time, that my mood seems immune to such things, then there are other times when I do feel irritable but it's just a lot lot more mild than the same feeling used to be many years ago.  Could that mood when such negative feeling seem impossible become a permanent state?  It seems possible to me but I don't know if it will happen or not.  But it's been quite some time since weakness to emotion got far enough for me to 'lose my temper' which I think is a much more extreme case of being irritable such that you've fallen rather deep into irrational thought and behavior and it's really showing on the surface too.  I won't say I never feel irritation though and I can't safely say it's no longer possible for me to 'lose my temper' ever for the rest of my life.  Imagine such a scenario, I am laying in a hospital bed in excrutiating pain after some horrible accident and the guy that is supposed to be injecting me with pain killing medicine has paused with syringe in hand to talk on the cell phone with his girlfriend about who he thinks should really win the next Dancing with the Stars (which is a tv show) instead of giving me my medicine.  Would I say something snippy in a rather peaved tone?  I would suspect so!  ;-P  Will I ever reach a level of attainment when even that would not cause irritation?  Seems hard to imagine but I can't say 100% that it is not possible.

I think a lot of this has to do with varying definitions of enlightenment and various gurus trying to live up to expectations.  Just because you have a few gurus claiming various perfect attainments but not truly exhibiting them at all times does not mean such attainments are never reached, it just means those particular guys did not reach them. I think that does call into question the truthfulness of those particular people but I am not sure how much evidence it is for the attainments in general.  You would have to prove such is never reached and the scientists here will probably realize that a negative can never be completely proved. 

But I am not adverse to the idea that it might be possible to reach a point where irritation was so little that actual 'loss of temper' would not be seen anymore or at least not be seen in any normal kinds of circumstances.  People around a person can typically only see what is shown on the outside, a person might feel a tad of irritation but it would not be enough to yield overtly pissy behavior.  To those on the outside, it can look like 'complete lack of irritability' because no irritability is showing.  On the flip side, such would be fairly easy to fake when in public for anyone with decent self control.  You'd have to really get to know the person to get a feeling for his/her true nature, seems to me.  (or maybe have really good instincts) 

I think one thing that can probably be agreed on is when further along the path, a point is reached when a person's weakness to the emotions and desires is greatly weakened and that such a state is more pleasant than the previous state.  How extreme that immunity to desire and emotion might reach is probably the main issue for debate.  And another issue is how many fakers there probably are.  Those that like to make a lot of big fancy claims and get a lot of publicity might be the ones most likely to be faking it.  Those that have truly made the more substantial attainments may be the least likely to go around waving their flag and making a big exhibition out of it. 
-Eva  

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 4:41 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
I think one thing that can probably be agreed on is when further along the path, a point is reached when a person's weakness to the emotions and desires is greatly weakened and that such a state is more pleasant than the previous state. 


Boom!  That is why I practice, precisely.  It's already begun and I want more, and there is no evidence that I will not get more of that.   Well put, Eva.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 8:19 AM as a reply to Noah.
I want to be clearer with what I'm saying so I'll try again - it is about the biological need for sex. I'm not commenting on the ability of a human being to see what's going on, biologically and emotionally, with their body/mind. Practice and attainments do not change our biology to the extent that biological needs can be eliminated. I think we need to be very precise when we talk about this stuff or people get confused. We can do all kinds of things after we experience and recognize our bilogoical urges, but a biological urge is just what it is.

Eliminate biological needs hunger and sex? Not possible.

Control urges and habits once biological needs are recognized? Possible.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 9:03 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva --

I think a lot of this has to do with varying definitions of enlightenment and various gurus trying to live up to expectations.  Just because you have a few gurus claiming various perfect attainments but not truly exhibiting them at all times does not mean such attainments are never reached, it just means those particular guys did not reach them. I think that does call into question the truthfulness of those particular people but I am not sure how much evidence it is for the attainments in general.  You would have to prove such is never reached and the scientists here will probably realize that a negative can never be completely proved.  

This is the reverse of how I think about the issue. It's the responsibility of those who make the claim to be free of anger (one example) to "prove" that's true. It's a claim that needs evidence. There are some folks who have made such claims and then renounced them. I don't know of anyone at any level of practice who can say honestly that they can no lnger even experience anger, jealousy, and so on. It's speculation top say "maybe this is possible" and fair speculation to say "I don't know what the ultimate experience of being human is." I'm not sure of that, either. But it gets very unrealistic at times when folks talk about the fruits of practice and seem to have beliefs in such highly unlikely results. There are plenty of reasons to practice and loads and loads of benefots to be reaped from it, for sure. I just fear that the claims overshoot the reality and can thereby lead people stray or worse, turn them off when the claims are outlandish and/or unattainable.

But that's just me.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 1:56 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I want to be clearer with what I'm saying so I'll try again - it is about the biological need for sex. I'm not commenting on the ability of a human being to see what's going on, biologically and emotionally, with their body/mind. Practice and attainments do not change our biology to the extent that biological needs can be eliminated. I think we need to be very precise when we talk about this stuff or people get confused. We can do all kinds of things after we experience and recognize our bilogoical urges, but a biological urge is just what it is.

Eliminate biological needs hunger and sex? Not possible.

Control urges and habits once biological needs are recognized? Possible.
Heard!  Also well put.  I will keep this post as a reference point for myself in future discussions when I pick my words.  

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 4:23 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
I want to be clearer with what I'm saying so I'll try again - it is about the biological need for sex. I'm not commenting on the ability of a human being to see what's going on, biologically and emotionally, with their body/mind. Practice and attainments do not change our biology to the extent that biological needs can be eliminated. I think we need to be very precise when we talk about this stuff or people get confused. We can do all kinds of things after we experience and recognize our bilogoical urges, but a biological urge is just what it is.

Eliminate biological needs hunger and sex? Not possible.

Control urges and habits once biological needs are recognized? Possible.
Do women have a biological need for sex?  I don't think so.  Do men?  I can't answer that easily as I am not well versed in being male but I did not find any scientific research showing any evidence of harm if one does not ejaculate other than it might happen in your sleep or when peeing instead.   But it seems the body is able to take care of needs in that department on it's own without any special sexual effort on your part.  (oh the things one can find on the internet!)  I am certainly willing to agree that men tend to have a much stronger drive in that department but I have not yet seen any evidence that it is a biological requirement in the same way food is. 
-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 4:36 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.

This is the reverse of how I think about the issue. It's the responsibility of those who make the claim to be free of anger (one example) to "prove" that's true. It's a claim that needs evidence.
One issue is that it is scientifically impossible to 'prove' a negative. I could never prove it is impossible for me to get angry (but to be clear I am for sure not making that claim either) because that would require me to subject myself to every possible scenario and then not get angry, but it's not possible to experience every possible scenario.  Now for just mere 'evidence' (but not proof), what evidence can there be other than their word and the observations of those around them?  How else could any evidence by given?  And that is the way it is already done.  So I don't see how it is possible for anyone ever to accomplish what you are demanding.  Although I guess you could design a test that might piss off most people and then trap them into it without their knowledge and then secretly record the outcome, kind of like that 'punked' tv show  ;-P  But even that would not be them providing evidence voluntarily.    

There are some folks who have made such claims and then renounced them.
Well that sounds fairly honest.  Sometimes you don't know what will happen until severly tested and also phases come and go and sometimes a long lasting one might make you think you will stay there forever.  Any of us can only be as honest and knowledgeable with others as we are with ourselves. 
I don't know of anyone at any level of practice who can say honestly that they can no lnger even experience anger, jealousy, and so on.
Well could be evidence, but I personally don't know a lot of people way down the path so not sure myself how much that means.  Maybe it only means very very few make it down that far on the path. 
I just fear that the claims overshoot the reality and can thereby lead people stray or worse, turn them off when the claims are outlandish and/or unattainable.

But that's just me.
Yeah, I can see your point, might be counterproductive if it gets to be like either you are perfect or you got nothing.  ;-P
-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 5:58 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
The thing for me is that both easily controlling and eliminating harmful urges would meet my criteria for "good enough", meaning, a point after which I no longer need formal practice to be continuously happy and functional at a level acceptable to me.  It seems like it is everyone's job to know explicitly what their goals are for practice, and to use skillful means and intuition to get there.  Whether or not there are any people on earth who have eliminated urges is less prevelant for me than the fact that the sample size for the 'elimination group' is much smaller than the 'easily controlling' group.  I chose meditation in the end because it seems more statistically likely for me to reach the 'easily controlling' outcome more quickly.  

On a side note, part of skillful means is to have realistic expectations and a grounded contextual understanding, which is what I think Chris is warning against when he talks about people potentially getting confused.  So knowing about guru scandals, about realistic expectations for insight progress, as well as having some direct contact with people farther down the road, are all important things.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 6:33 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
One issue is that it is scientifically impossible to 'prove' a negative. I could never prove it is impossible for me to get angry (but to be clear I am for sure not making that claim either) because that would require me to subject myself to every possible scenario and then not get angry, but it's not possible to experience every possible scenario.  Now for just mere 'evidence' (but not proof), what evidence can there be other than their word and the observations of those around them?  How else could any evidence by given?  And that is the way it is already done.  So I don't see how it is possible for anyone ever to accomplish what you are demanding.  Although I guess you could design a test that might piss off most people and then trap them into it without their knowledge and then secretly record the outcome, kind of like that 'punked' tv show  ;-P  But even that would not be them providing evidence voluntarily.     

I'm not demanding anything, Eva, but I am suggesting that if someone says something like "I'm so far down the path that I'm no longer able to get angry" that we stop, take a breath, and think through what that really means. On top of that, if a person is going to make that kind of claim they can quite easily provide reasonable evidence, by which I mean things like in depth psycholgical examinations and lengthy interviews that might reveal the actuality or validity of their claim. This doesn't require the same standards of proof that would apply to a physics experiment.

I know quite a few people in the same situation I'm in, post 4th path, who have the same personalities they had prior and who all agree with me that biological needs have not been eliminated and who have retained all their original emotional capabilities. What they now have is a dramatically increased ability to observe and effectively deal with their own baggage, emotions, habits and so on.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 6:37 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Do women have a biological need for sex?  I don't think so.  Do men?  I can't answer that easily as I am not well versed in being male but I did not find any scientific research showing any evidence of harm if one does not ejaculate other than it might happen in your sleep or when peeing instead. 


There is a need to have sex, or at least there used to be before artificial insemination. No sex, no babies, no more humans  emoticon

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 7:29 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:

I'm not demanding anything, Eva, but I am suggesting that if someone says something like "I'm so far down the path that I'm no longer able to get angry" that we stop, take a breath, and think through what that really means.
Hi to everyone and peace, 

Just some more of those old thoughts, 

It seems that the lessening of anger, via the non responsiveness to the phenoneon that triggers anger is not a very preposterous claim.  I would even add that if one were not lessening the anger response, then one may want to use wise discrimination and examine exactly what is being practiced and what is being understood about phenomenon and their interactions.  And the use of that information both passively and actively.

What about if Anger arises, yet one could abandon it within seconds?  

Besides, Eva had already replied that there could be extenuating circumstances where anger could flare up in an individual, i.e. Being in a Hospital Bed and not receiving proper treatment.  But even if Anger flared up, perhaps it would only last a few seconds, who knows?  Then Anger is not such a big deal anyway, at that point.   Substituting Anger is not only possible but highly recommended.  It is a skill to practice, just another set of arising patterns of sensations to be intentionally replaced with another set of sensations. An Antidote, that when applied repeatedly, becomes the new pattern of response, indeed, over time an automatic response, this is the fascinating aspect of the Impersonal Nature of Phenomenon, Anatta.

But, from what I can tell, the anger response is trained away until there may or may not be an irritation response that arises in response to unpleasant sensations, and that even the irritation response lessens in intensity and in the lenghth of time until cessation of the irritation response, mostly when Wisdom kicks in.  This also goes without saying that one can respond to social situations boldly and more wisely, but without anger.  Practice need not make one a powderpuff pushover.

This is all part and parcel to the process of Dependent Origination, and the gradual path of Buddhist Practice and the results thereof.  And, indeed probably any other practice that a person uses or comes up with for themselves that reaches the same end, isms are actually just worldling wordings overlaying what is really going on in the Mind and Body.

There is probably more to be said and more to be experienced in all of this.  I think alot of it this is due to the confusion between the painful sensations, which will always be there for any human, barring biological circumstances, and the minds reaction to the painful sensations. 

In other words first dart, second dart.

There also seems to be confusion floating around out there as to there being a self fulfilling prophecy limit to what the mind can and can not do.

Also,  People always want proof, and people are usually skeptical, etc. etc.  And who can blame anyone?  There are loads of charlatans out there.  But, I do not see anyone claiming any kind of crazy Vulcan feats here anyways.  Mostly, :-P

But, I really do not think diminishing the anger response is unrealistic, or beyond any human ability.  I also would not rule out that one could eliminate the anger response completely, though that would indeed be rare, and an amazing accomplishment.

 But, any improvement in not letting an unwholesome state arise is an improvement,  however partial it may be.

Psi

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 10:15 PM as a reply to Michał G..
Michał G.:
We all know that celibacy is a theme present in many religions. Many enlightened masters were celibate and it's not like they were forcing themselves, they say that sexual desire drops after awakening.

Since we have some arhats here, if you are one please answer honestly from your own experience, do sexual desires still arise?

Hi, I am not an Arhat, or whatever, but I am thinking that the whole sex issue is overrated.  On the biological level, it is perhaps just a glandular function, no different from tear ducts, salivary glands, etc.  But, because of the pleasure sensations, sex becomes a fascination and a hot topic.

Besides all that, only the horniest animals reproduced from our ancestry, so here we are, a product of our very nature...

This is not to say that when one is involved in a relationship, that there are not needs, expressions, and respect  that go hand in hand in sharing sexual experiences.  

I think the sexual desires, are just like any desires, fraught with expectations, and expectations can lead to disappointments.  But, to be mindful, and just enjoy the moments , as they are, without the mental clutter chatter and desire, that perhaps is a worthy goal.   Sensations are sensations, after all.  No need to get all attached to such impermanency, especially ones so fleeting  and easily reproducible by nature.

So, to answer your question, do sexual desires still arise?  Well, do you still have an appetite and release saliva?  Does a person still sweat?  Again, it is maybe more of a difference between the biological aspect of sex, and the mental attachment to sex.

I think it is the mind and the realtionship to the phenomeon presented that changes, Is it your sweat arising?  Or just sweat?  Is it your saliva when hungry, or just a natural impersonal process?  Same with sex, do the factors arise personally, or is it just another natural process?

It seems there is also a use it or lose it adaptability process with the body, i.e. no sex, sex glands go dormant.  No excercise, muscles atrophy. No stretching, you tighten up.  Though there are probably exceptions, and differing techniques that use the galnds fo other functions, perhaps excercising them even more powerfully than sex ever would.

There is alot more involved in all this, to be sure.  Transforming or rerouting sexual energy, moral issues, culture, etc.

Psi

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 11:06 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
One issue is that it is scientifically impossible to 'prove' a negative. I could never prove it is impossible for me to get angry (but to be clear I am for sure not making that claim either) because that would require me to subject myself to every possible scenario and then not get angry, but it's not possible to experience every possible scenario.  Now for just mere 'evidence' (but not proof), what evidence can there be other than their word and the observations of those around them?  How else could any evidence by given?  And that is the way it is already done.  So I don't see how it is possible for anyone ever to accomplish what you are demanding.  Although I guess you could design a test that might piss off most people and then trap them into it without their knowledge and then secretly record the outcome, kind of like that 'punked' tv show  ;-P  But even that would not be them providing evidence voluntarily.     

I'm not demanding anything, Eva, but I am suggesting that if someone says something like "I'm so far down the path that I'm no longer able to get angry" that we stop, take a breath, and think through what that really means.
Ok well in the the last post you said "It's the responsibility of those who make the claim to be free of anger (one example) to "prove" that's true."  So I was only saying that if you attribute such a responsibility to them (but not apparently demand of them) and to do so is basically impossible, then no one is going to live up to that expectation or responsibility ever.  If you attribute such a responsibility to them to do something which is not technically possible as far as i can see, then if no one does it, then that lack of doing IMO cannot be taken as evidence of much.  Sure you may in such a way right off all fakers but if there just happens to be anyone in there that is actually telling the truth, you will be throwing the baby out with the bathwater as well.  But of course if you already decided that all such claims are always untrue always and forever, then such requirements will of course always defend the position you have already decided on. 

But now with this next post, you are switching it to a different statement which is in my interpretation basically saying the rest of us might be well served to not blindly accept every statement made by so called gurus as being always completely factual.  Yes, I certainly agree with you there, but that is a different thing from saying they have a responsibility to prove something that is not provable.  

On top of that, if a person is going to make that kind of claim they can quite easily provide reasonable evidence, by which I mean things like in depth psycholgical examinations and lengthy interviews that might reveal the actuality or validity of their claim.
Having been a psych major in college, I know of no such scientific examinations or strategies.  Plus you can always just hire someone that will give you the results you want to hear anyway, that's the same thing that happens with dueling expert witnesses in court.  Psychologists aren't any better at agreeing than Buddhists.  A psych evaluation is just not geared towards telling if someone is incapable of getting angry ever.  Psych evals are only IMO good for some guesses at a general understanding of overall personality. 

This doesn't require the same standards of proof that would apply to a physics experiment.
You used the word 'prove,' I know of only one kind and that is where you show beyond doubt, which again I say is not going to be possible. 

I know quite a few people in the same situation I'm in, post 4th path, who have the same personalities they had prior and who all agree with me that biological needs have not been eliminated and who have retained all their original emotional capabilities. What they now have is a dramatically increased ability to observe and effectively deal with their own baggage, emotions, habits and so on.
Well no argument there.  Just that going that very far down the path may not be something that 'quite a few' people do in the first place and thos that do may not be waving their freak flag proudly on the internet for all to see.   I am not saying I know the answer either, just saying that there are valid arguments on both sides.   I am curious about it myself  but with very little evidence from either side, I am not willing to stake my pole in either camp.   

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 11:12 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Do women have a biological need for sex?  I don't think so.  Do men?  I can't answer that easily as I am not well versed in being male but I did not find any scientific research showing any evidence of harm if one does not ejaculate other than it might happen in your sleep or when peeing instead. 


There is a need to have sex, or at least there used to be before artificial insemination. No sex, no babies, no more humans  emoticon

That is such a cheat argument and you know it!  ;-P  We are clearly speaking of the biological needs of a select few individuals only.  The entire society as a whole is obviously not all going to be passing on sex here.  Besides, I think it's a very valid issue to consider.  Some of you are assuming it to be a biological need, why?

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/4/15 11:29 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:

There also seems to be confusion floating around out there as to there being a self fulfilling prophecy limit to what the mind can and can not do.
That's a big issue for me, if someone decides something is impossible or that sex drive is a biological requirement, for instance, then likely that is going to be a self fulfilling prophecy.  So I like to be very careful about my assumptions.  That is not to say I feel the need to think all things are for sure possible either.  Just pays to keep an open mind either way, IME. 

Also,  People always want proof, and people are usually skeptical, etc. etc.  And who can blame anyone?  There are loads of charlatans out there.  But, I do not see anyone claiming any kind of crazy Vulcan feats here anyways.  Mostly, :-P
Yep, lots of fibbers, I just don't feel that just becuase a lot of people lie about something doesn't mean that thing is not possible for anyone.  

But, I really do not think diminishing the anger response is unrealistic, or beyond any human ability.  I also would not rule out that one could eliminate the anger response completely, though that would indeed be rare, and an amazing accomplishment.
You'd also probably have to explain precisely what is meant, does the person never experience even an inkling of irritation ever or does it just not rise to the point of showing in outwards snappiness? At least the second one to me does not seem beyond the realm of possibility either. And if you lived as a monk, did not have a crabby mother in law to deal with and basically had a more simplified life, it might be even more possible to generally and naturally be a very peaceful and even tempered person for years at a time.  
-Eva 


RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/5/15 11:20 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
You used the word 'prove,' I know of only one kind and that is where you show beyond doubt, which again I say is not going to be possible.  

Eva, we're using a different sense of the word "prove." Your version seems to be something that might be required in mathematics. Mine is a basic common sense version -- if a person says "I am no longer capable of getting angry" and then they are observed being angry, that's proof that they still get angry and disproves their claim that they don't get angry. That's all I'm saying. It's really very basic and simple.

And yes, I was teasing about the need for sex being procreation, but I'm sure you saw the smiley I posted after that comment  emoticon

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/5/15 10:15 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
You used the word 'prove,' I know of only one kind and that is where you show beyond doubt, which again I say is not going to be possible.  

Eva, we're using a different sense of the word "prove." Your version seems to be something that might be required in mathematics. Mine is a basic common sense version -- if a person says "I am no longer capable of getting angry" and then they are observed being angry, that's proof that they still get angry and disproves their claim that they don't get angry. That's all I'm saying. It's really very basic and simple.

And yes, I was teasing about the need for sex being procreation, but I'm sure you saw the smiley I posted after that comment  emoticon


Yes, it's easy to disprove a positive, all you need is one instance where it is not true and it's disproven.  No argument there.  The prob is when you say one has a responsibility to prove a negative (ie never get angry), such proof is not possible and the word 'evidence' is not a synonym with 'proof.'  The dictionary defiinition of 'prove' says 'beyond a reasonable doubt,' that is not 'my definition, it's from the dictionary.  Speaking from the perspective of logic instead of emotion, even if you want only evidence, but not proof, you would prolly need to at least give some kind of possible example of evidence beyond what is already being done, which is verbal statements and witness observation.  But you have not been able to give any example of additional evidence that could be done that actually exists (nor can I think of any myself). Therefore, my assertion is you appear to be putting a responsibility on these people to do something that is not possible, either prove something unprovable or give evidence that does not exist.  Which is hardly reasonable.  Yeah, I don't care for the fibbers either but that does not mean I will assert that people I don't even know have a responsibility to do something that is not even possible in the first place.  There is just no easy way to tell if someone is putting on a good act instead of being true unless you have a lot of first hand experience with them and have seen for yourself or know someone that has.  No one here is capable of proving much of anything.  Daniel can't prove he's fourth path for instance, but even those who don't believe him have not to much knowledge said it's his responsibility to prove it, probably becuase they realize it's not something that is possible to prove.  ;-P    

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/6/15 2:21 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
A brief plug for my favorite book on the subject, which makes for simply great reading and makes very good points that compare and contrast various Buddhist traditions takes on all this: Lust for Enlightenment, Buddhism and Sex, by John Stevens.

Enjoy,

Daniel

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/6/15 4:43 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Paweł K:
In reality in person who is depressed and addicted to things that are not even giving him/her any real pleasure this whole things look differently. Such person wake up, feel suffering from craving, suffering when drinking it because it doesn't seem to give any relief, then suffering after because coffee make muscless tense up and such person want relief from that. When doing it right tense muscles are bliss, not tense muscless are bliss, when doing it wrong tensed muscles are suffering caused by wanting them not tensed and not tensed muscless are suffering caused by wanting them tensed. Sexuality is the same, suffering, suffering, suffering and if it was gone then it would cause suffering too!

Even sense of self which IS just a bunch of tensed muscles is not bad. It can be source of bliss as much as not having it. Sense of self issue is like sexuality, it will be seen as an issue when mind is obsessed with relief. Meditation and enlightenment will be an issue when mind is obsessed with relief it is supposed to give. When relief seeking is dropped, before, during and after drinking morning coffee, before, during and after having sex, begginings, middle and ending of sensations, etc. are all fine and source of bliss, joy, exstasy and inner peace. (...)

Thanks for your inspiring post.

While reading your post I suddenly entered a mode of very good mindfulness. I could see very subtle movements (thoughts and ideas) in my mind and they were causing many different sensations in my body. I had an insight that every little movement and every little sensation related to this movement is dukkha, ie pleasent sensation is dukkha, unpleasent sensation is dukkha, willingness to do something is dukkha, unwillingness to do something is dukkha, trying this, trying that, looking for something etc. And i had another insight that all these things, that I've seen, happen on their own, "I" am not doer. The Karma is Doer.

Sorry if this is off topic.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/6/15 4:09 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Speaking from the perspective of logic instead of emotion, even if you want only evidence, but not proof, you would prolly need to at least give some kind of possible example of evidence beyond what is already being done, which is verbal statements and witness observation.  But you have not been able to give any example of additional evidence that could be done that actually exists (nor can I think of any myself). Therefore, my assertion is you appear to be putting a responsibility on these people to do something that is not possible, either prove something unprovable or give evidence that does not exist.

Yes, I am putting the responsiblity for demonstrating a lack of the ability to get angry squarely on the backs of the people who would make that claim. I'm happy to wait for an extended period for them to show that they no longer get angry. I would accept a solid five years without anger, as common sense proof of the claim. Again, I think this is a pretty siimple, common sense thing that does not require the kind of proof you seen to be referring to, Eva. I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on this. I think you and I have ended up in that same place before. No probelm on my end.

BTW - I can envision a lot of situations we could devise to test the claim that a person does not experience anger. Of course, they would have to submit to the tests and experiences voluntarily, but I'm pretty sure we could create experiments in which human beings would normally experience anger, even rage and related emotions, as a resault of external stimuli. It's far from impossible to do, methinks. 


RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 12:52 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:


BTW - I can envision a lot of situations we could devise to test the claim that a person does not experience anger. Of course, they would have to submit to the tests and experiences voluntarily, but I'm pretty sure we could create experiments in which human beings would normally experience anger, even rage and related emotions, as a resault of external stimuli. It's far from impossible to do, methinks. 

Really?  Seems to me it would be difficult to test someone with decent patience to crack in a short period of time, say 30 minutes, if they were to know that is the test.  Even me, and I DO certainly experience irritation, seems to me I could keep my cool for a certain amount of time if put on guard beforehand.  You could insult my momma and myself and you could have me do irritating things or whatever, I can't think of anything you could do to make me show irritation other than maybe some kind of physical pain type thing, torturing a kitten, or something like that.  If you could find some nonviolent nonevil ways of forcing someone to show irritation, that might make for a new hit reality TV show, Buddhists against the Irritation King, who will crack first!  Finalists will go on to compete for the yearly grand price of a new car!  Seems unlikely to me that people with any skill woudl crack easily, that's why I suggested there would need to be some subterfuge involved, the testee would IMO not be able to know the true nature of the test so that he/she would not be on guard to hide irritation.  Kind of like a hidden camera thing when situations are set up in advance on unsuspecting victims. 

I remember this one tv show, participants were told they had to go to a very important interview.  But little did they know, the real test was not in the interview but how they behaved on the way to the interview where various situations were set up to test their behavior.  For instance, one situation was that as they were trying to enter the building for the interview, they encountered a person in front of them heavily burdened with many items they were carrying attempting to get the front door open but having considerable trouble.  The test was if the subject took a moment to help with the door for the burdened person or if they were too worried about their own issues to show concern for others.  It would only take seconds to help a person with the door but yet some of them still did not.  Because the were being taped on the sly, it was possible to catch their more normal behavior.  If they knew they were being tested on kindness at the time, I'd guess they would have shown more of it than they did.  ;-P
-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 5:55 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Seems to me it would be difficult to test someone with decent patience to crack in a short period of time, say 30 minutes,

I think this is a failure of imagination emoticon

<said jokingly>

the testee would IMO not be able to know the true nature of the test so that he/she would not be on guard to hide irritation.  Kind of like a hidden camera thing when situations are set up in advance on unsuspecting victims.  

Yep, I think that's the kind of thing that would work.



RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 5:58 AM as a reply to Chris Marti.
@Chris & Eva:

Now yal just have to find a tv studio to produce this hidden-camera, prank show "America's Funniest Home Saints And Psychopaths."

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 6:18 AM as a reply to Noah.
 "America's Funniest Angriest Saints And Psychopaths."


emoticon

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 12:17 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
Seems to me it would be difficult to test someone with decent patience to crack in a short period of time, say 30 minutes,

I think this is a failure of imagination emoticon

Hehe maybe but I can think of quite a lot of irritating things that could be done for a sneaky setup.  Subject is told that they need to go to an important interview about receiving a large charitable donation to their organization but be sure to be on time and dressed nicely as the donor HATES late people and sloppy people.  Then give them inaccurate directions to the meeting place.  Once the person finally gets there, have the doors locked and the guard tells the subject he is not authorized to get in because the guard forgot his appointment book and all entrants have to be verified on the appointment book or go to another building (far away) to get permission to get in.  So subject has to go to the other location and come back with permission but the person that gives permission is at lunch for an unknown period of time, but while he is parked at the other building, he gets a parking ticket for parking too long, even though he wat not actually there too long.  Then goes back and is told by another guard that the parking lot is closed for maintainance and subject has to park at another location far away and walk back.  Then the building guard finally lets the subject in but is all crabby and rude about it.  Then tells him elevators have not been inspected for safety for this week so subject must climb 10 flights of stairs.  While walking up stairs a mother and child are walking up at the same time, the mother is rude and the child makes fun of  subject's clothes and religion.  Then the child throws red juice at the subject which gets all over (there is a colored liquied that is red at first and then later turns clear and nonstaining so there would be no long term damage to the clothing but the subject would not know that) and laughs at the subject.  Mother laughs too and compliments her child for being smart.  Then subject finally gets to interview but secretary turns him away as being too late and looking like a slob.  Subject goes back to car and there is another parking ticket (tickets are fake but subject does not know that and wont be told till later).  Run a variety of gurus through this mill and only the one that actually acts the most saintlike actually gets the large charitable donation. 

I'm pretty sure I would get irritated if something like that happened to me!  Whole thing could be set up with fairly low budget too.  Title the show 'Caught in the Act' or some such.   Prolly need to figure out how to get permission to air it in advance though, if I was a guru trying to act artificially all saint like, I would not give permission to have bad looking behavior aired after the fact.  You'd need some kind of prior agreement and permissions for some kind of future filming to take place at a vague time.  I am not a lawyer but that might be the more cagey part of it there.  At some point, you'd probably have crossed the line to some kind of unsavory lieing and entrapment feeling to the setup too but there would likely be many Hollywood types that would have no such qualms. 

-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 1:05 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Chris Marti
BTW - I can envision a lot of situations we could devise to test the claim that a person does not experience anger. Of course, they would have to submit to the tests and experiences voluntarily, but I'm pretty sure we could create experiments in which human beings would normally experience anger, even rage and related emotions, as a resault of external stimuli. It's far from impossible to do, methinks. Chris,

I have questions.

Do you think that , through praciticing the abandonment of anger, in all forms, leads to the lessening of anger arising?

Do you think tht if someone were guarding the sense doors, that they would or would not be able to not have anger arise in normal everday circumstances?  In other words, do you think it is possible to not have anger arise?



Really?  Seems to me it would be difficult to test someone with decent patience to crack in a short period of time, say 30 minutes, if they were to know that is the test.  Even me, and I DO certainly experience irritation, seems to me I could keep my cool for a certain amount of time if put on guard beforehand. 
-Eva
Eva,

I think that is the key. The key being the treating each life situation as if it were a test. If you treated every circumstance that arose as a test, i.e. guarding the sense doors, then one could, most likely keep their cool, in each situation as it arose.  This depends, of course, if one was staying mindful of each phnomeon in life arising , as it occured in real time, the amount of practice and skill one had previously developed, inherent genetic tendencies, and innumerable oher unamed factors.

So, a question.

If a person were able to maintain Mindfuness and guard the sense doors on a 24/7 basis, would Anger have a chance to arise?

 Now , there are also two considerations to this question.  

The first consideration is having Anger arise or not during normal daily activity.  And the second consideration is having Anger arise in abnormal daily activity.

Examples,

First consideration, someone spills red drink on your costume.

Second consideration, The Evil Empire is about to blow up the planet Earth if you do not give away the location of the Rebel Base. emoticon


Chris and Eva, and everyone, 

So, is there or is there not a belief that there can be success in the lessening of the arousal of Anger both in duration and Intensity?

Is there the belief that Anger can , or can not be completley abandoned, either permanently , or on a case by case, moment by moment basis?

Could Mindfulness be developed so deeply that it became pure mindefulness, and thus with pure mindfulness, coupled with Wisdom, do you think that it is possible that anger could not arise in normal situations? i.e. Milk spills on your toes

And, same question, in abnormal situations? i.e. Toes catch fire


Psi  

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 6:03 PM as a reply to Psi.
My experience has been that I cannot truly eliminate aspects of my humanity, like biological urges, needs and emotions, nor do I want to. These are not just things that can cause pain and suffering (and they can, and do). They are part of being human. What I can do is to practice to be with my human foibles. To learn about how they work, about how experience is constructed to make it seem like there is a permanent me to suffer or to be insulted or to be angry, and thereby reduce my reactivity, increase my patience, tolerance and compassion for myself and others.

I know other folks feel and may practice differently, and that's okay.

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 8:01 PM as a reply to Psi.
Huge fan of this last post, Pawel.  It elucidates my view (although from an earlier stage of insight than where you are at) perfectly.  

With path attainments, some negative thoughts and emotions do permanently cease, for some people, some of the time.  Lots of other tense mind patterns become much more easy to deal with (as Chris has mentioned several times up thread).

This is good enough for me.  I don't need to eliminate all inner tension.  I need to reach a point that is acceptable within, where I can function from.  That is all. 

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/7/15 10:02 PM as a reply to Chris Marti.
Chris Marti:
My experience has been that I cannot truly eliminate aspects of my humanity, like biological urges, needs and emotions, nor do I want to. These are not just things that can cause pain and suffering (and they can, and do). They are part of being human. What I can do is to practice to be with my human foibles. To learn about how they work, about how experience is constructed to make it seem like there is a permanent me to suffer or to be insulted or to be angry, and thereby reduce my reactivity, increase my patience, tolerance and compassion for myself and others.

I know other folks feel and may practice differently, and that's okay.
Hi Chris, 

That all sounds very reasonable.

Psi

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/9/15 7:15 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:
Chris Marti
BTW - I can envision a lot of situations we could devise to test the claim that a person does not experience anger. Of course, they would have to submit to the tests and experiences voluntarily, but I'm pretty sure we could create experiments in which human beings would normally experience anger, even rage and related emotions, as a resault of external stimuli. It's far from impossible to do, methinks. Chris,

I have questions.

Do you think that , through praciticing the abandonment of anger, in all forms, leads to the lessening of anger arising?

Well that's a rather loaded question, how does one practice abandonment of anger might be the first question?  If your practice is a more effective type, it might work better.  If your practice was like mine for many years and basically consisted of me telling myself to knock it off, that way was not super effective.  I'd just get angry at myself when it didn't work.  ;-P

Do you think tht if someone were guarding the sense doors, that they would or would not be able to not have anger arise in normal everday circumstances?  In other words, do you think it is possible to not have anger arise?
I really don't know.  I have found in recent years, I am comfortable with not knowing for a lot of things.  Before I always wanted to have the answer to everything, now I am more comfortable either making a guess but not being too attached to it, or just waiting to see if I can get any more evidence before even putting a stake down anywhere. 


I think that is the key. The key being the treating each life situation as if it were a test. If you treated every circumstance that arose as a test, i.e. guarding the sense doors, then one could, most likely keep their cool, in each situation as it arose.  
I think this does help, it's a perspective shift. 


If a person were able to maintain Mindfuness and guard the sense doors on a 24/7 basis, would Anger have a chance to arise?
Good question!  I guess it's a two parter though, is it possible or has any human ever been able to guard the sense doors at all times in the first place?  And if so, what is the result?  Maybe it also depends on how your guard them.  ;-P

 Now , there are also two considerations to this question.  

The first consideration is having Anger arise or not during normal daily activity.  And the second consideration is having Anger arise in abnormal daily activity.

Examples,

First consideration, someone spills red drink on your costume.

Second consideration, The Evil Empire is about to blow up the planet Earth if you do not give away the location of the Rebel Base. emoticon
Yeah, how high do you set the standards? 

Chris and Eva, and everyone, 

So, is there or is there not a belief that there can be success in the lessening of the arousal of Anger both in duration and Intensity?
I think it's a safe bet that lessening is quite possible, I've seen that in myself certainly. 

Is there the belief that Anger can , or can not be completley abandoned, either permanently , or on a case by case, moment by moment basis?

Could Mindfulness be developed so deeply that it became pure mindefulness, and thus with pure mindfulness, coupled with Wisdom, do you think that it is possible that anger could not arise in normal situations? i.e. Milk spills on your toes
Seems possible to me. 

And, same question, in abnormal situations? i.e. Toes catch fire


Psi  
Yes, it's the 64,000 dollar question!
-Eva

RE: Question to Arhats
Answer
12/9/15 7:29 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:

This is good enough for me.  I don't need to eliminate all inner tension.  I need to reach a point that is acceptable within, where I can function from.  That is all. 

What I've really noticed are several things.  First I realize that irritations seems to stem from various issues I have with myself, weak or sensitive spots in my psyche, etc.  For instance, someone was acting like a jerk and I was irritated, but then thining on it, I realized that it was because his words hurt my ego.  And they hurt my ego because I was insecure with myself.  Otherwise, I would have just blown off his words and not cared.  The more I strengthen myself and shore up my weaknesses and insecurities, the more the words and actions of others do not affect me as much.  So I am not really trying to stop anger, I am trying to deal with the weakness I have that allowed or created anger.  IMO, the anger is just a symptom of another prob.  To get rid of anger, I need to get rid of the other prob and then anger evaporates on its own. 

So as I go down the path and fix more of my probs, anger naturally lessens, but since all of my probs are not fixed, I still have some anger left.  And I am not even fully aware of all my issues but anger and irritation are great markers to point them out to me.  What I find is that it feels great to have less anger but each new attainment of anger lessening also allows me to see more clearly the anger and issues that are still left, they stick out more and more each time as their brethren are cleared from the room,  and the difference between them and not having anger becomes more obvious, so I am continually motivated to clear out more and more and more probs and experience better and nicer states.  The process seems to be self perpetuating and driven by the pleasure of having a progressively more serene mind more of the time. 

I don't know if an end to the process will be found or not.  Maybe it will be that forever on Earth I and others will always see bits of self that are the least well operating bits of the pile that one might be motivated to improve on. And as those parts are improved, then other parts will now be the least well operating.  It may be that eventually all visibly shown irritation will be extinguished but still there will be parts one feels are still lagging forever, even if irritation is not obviously shown in behavior anymore.

But that would be quite far down the road and I can't see that part of the road clearly from this part of the road way back here.  ;-P
-Eva