Message Boards Message Boards

Magick and The Powers

Myers Briggs Adventure

Toggle
Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/14/15 8:23 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Scott Kinney 12/14/15 8:46 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Lewis James 12/14/15 8:53 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Scott Kinney 12/14/15 9:07 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure tom moylan 12/14/15 9:25 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/14/15 12:57 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Eva Nie 12/14/15 10:45 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/14/15 11:11 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Eva Nie 12/15/15 1:39 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/15/15 10:24 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Eva Nie 12/16/15 9:27 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/17/15 1:02 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/14/15 7:59 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Ann 12/16/15 10:02 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/16/15 1:08 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Ann 12/16/15 3:30 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/18/15 8:05 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/20/15 1:22 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Ann 12/20/15 2:05 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/20/15 2:31 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/28/15 6:54 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 1/23/16 4:32 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 1/24/16 10:04 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 2/2/16 11:51 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 2/17/16 1:22 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Noah 2/18/16 12:29 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 2/18/16 12:35 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Eva Nie 3/21/16 12:16 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/21/16 8:17 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Eva Nie 3/21/16 12:29 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/21/16 11:55 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 2/20/16 9:39 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/19/16 3:22 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 4/24/16 1:51 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 5/14/16 7:22 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Noah 5/14/16 7:39 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 5/14/16 10:28 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Psi 5/14/16 9:31 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Psi 5/14/16 9:43 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 5/14/16 10:36 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure shargrol 5/15/16 6:05 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 5/15/16 9:08 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure shargrol 5/15/16 5:35 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 5/28/16 12:46 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 8/5/16 9:10 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/6/16 1:24 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/3/17 1:26 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/4/17 9:12 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/5/17 11:00 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/30/17 1:22 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure shargrol 3/30/17 2:25 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/30/17 7:20 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Noah D 3/31/17 8:13 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 3/31/17 6:33 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Noah D 4/1/17 9:49 AM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 4/1/17 6:11 PM
RE: Myers Briggs Adventure Richard Zen 12/8/17 1:59 AM
Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 8:23 AM
I decided to visit a writing group from Meetup purposefully looking for INFPs. I can see the similarities I have with them and how disorganized they are, day-dreaming, introverted and strangely compassionate. I also have seen how more gregarious I am now that I developed myself with Toastmasters and how things changed. The self is malleable and changeable.

I walked home from the meetup and accidentally passed by a small Tibetan Buddhist monastery in a residential area. There was a small group walking around the building doing a basic walking meditation. Some people lost their concentration and looked at me. LOL! I kept walking and realized I'm done.

It was a good day.

I'm onto my Hartlzer workbooks now and want to develop aspects of people that I don't have. ENTJs and ESTJs can be assholes but they have other things going for them with their Thinking Extroversion, Sensing Introversion, and Intuition Introversion. According to Jung INFPs will get neurotic doing these practices but with Enlightenment there should be freedom right? So I'll put this to the test and sign in from time to time on progress.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 8:46 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
You've heard the Apple - Myers Briggs legend, haven't you?

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 8:53 AM as a reply to Scott Kinney.
Is that related to this? https://digg.com/2015/myers-briggs-secret-history

Fascinating and revealing backstory, not sure what it says about the efficacy of the type indicator.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 9:07 AM as a reply to Lewis James.
No, not related to that at all.

The short version of the story was that at one time Apple had employees wear tags with the Myers Briggs indicator on them. One person, who'd been at Apple for some time, took to wearing the indicator "FYIV".

When asked what type that was, the person replied "F**k You, I'm Vested"

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 9:25 AM as a reply to Scott Kinney.
:-)

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 12:57 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Myers-Briggs is just a preference inventory. The fact that you can develop skills shows that it's malleable and people can learn. It's not fixed. Anyone who believes MBTI is a fixed thing is wrong.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 7:59 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Oh boy I've given myself some homework. emoticon

I'm going to work on these particular functions for the next 6 months and see how I fare:

  • Se - Respond quickly to requests (or my own requests), doing whatever is necessary to meet the request.
  • Si - Create and maintain routines to conserve energy.
  • Ni - Review perspectives from different stakeholders.
  • Te - Find a goal, look at who needs to be an ally, what resources are needed, and what goals have to be dropped.
  • Te - Find a way to make a goal measureable.
  • Te - Find the most immediate steps needed in logical order and make priorities.
  • Te - Organize environments according to ergonomics.
  • Te - Create rules or standards that conform to good results.
  • Te - Evaluate all performance according to measurement and efficiency.
  • Fe - Find needs of individuals in a group and try to see that they get fulfilled. Help excluded people.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to be tired.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 10:45 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Myers-Briggs is just a preference inventory. The fact that you can develop skills shows that it's malleable and people can learn. It's not fixed. Anyone who believes MBTI is a fixed thing is wrong.
Do many believe it to be fixed?  I was told it can and in fact usually does change as you age and develop through time.  I used to be INTJ in high school, just took it again and came up almost neutral except for distinct tendency towards Intuitional.  Took it years later and I think I got INTP.  Took it just now and it was INFJ but this time all but the Intuitional was a very weak preference.  I did notice this time I had very little preference in a lot of the questions, often answering 'uncertain,' I think that's changed a lot from past times I've taken the test. 

Anyway, it's certainly just a preference list, it's not to say you can't learn any skills outside your personality type.  It's just that to some people, some skills may come to them almost as easy as breathing, in fact they may not even know how to not do those things, while others may have to put some effort and consideration into accomplishing those same things and even others may not be able to even fathom the need for those skills.  Also, to learn to do other skills is one thing, but it may not be easy to make those things your natural preference over previous preferences.  And even if you change one thing, like maybe developing a preference for reading, that will not automatically carry over to a whole global tendency towards introversion for instance.  If you are extrovert now, even if you development a preference for curling up with a book often, that does not mean you will start disliking parties for instance.  ;-P 


RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/14/15 11:11 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva M Nie:
Richard Zen:
Myers-Briggs is just a preference inventory. The fact that you can develop skills shows that it's malleable and people can learn. It's not fixed. Anyone who believes MBTI is a fixed thing is wrong.
If you are extrovert now, even if you development a preference for curling up with a book often, that does not mean you will start disliking parties for instance.  ;-P 
It's a form of balancing where you attain certain habits (not as strong as things you've done since childhood) but your mind can do these activities with more ease because of practice. Looking at those older INFPs it's pretty clear they didn't develop much and it's possible to stagnate. Some do improve without realizing it, and out of necessity but actively doing so (while using mindfulness practices, goal-setting, GTD, motivation etc) makes it easier than a shot in the dark.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/15/15 1:39 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Eva M Nie:
Richard Zen:
Myers-Briggs is just a preference inventory. The fact that you can develop skills shows that it's malleable and people can learn. It's not fixed. Anyone who believes MBTI is a fixed thing is wrong.
If you are extrovert now, even if you development a preference for curling up with a book often, that does not mean you will start disliking parties for instance.  ;-P 
It's a form of balancing where you attain certain habits (not as strong as things you've done since childhood) but your mind can do these activities with more ease because of practice. Looking at those older INFPs it's pretty clear they didn't develop much and it's possible to stagnate. Some do improve without realizing it, and out of necessity but actively doing so (while using mindfulness practices, goal-setting, GTD, motivation etc) makes it easier than a shot in the dark.
I do agree it's probably a good idea to try to develop in new areas.  I have tended to do that if for no other reason than that for many things, living another half a life time with various weaknesses is probably more of a hassle than working on lessening the weaknesses and living with them less. ;-P

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/15/15 10:24 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva M Nie:
Richard Zen:
Eva M Nie:
Richard Zen:
Myers-Briggs is just a preference inventory. The fact that you can develop skills shows that it's malleable and people can learn. It's not fixed. Anyone who believes MBTI is a fixed thing is wrong.
If you are extrovert now, even if you development a preference for curling up with a book often, that does not mean you will start disliking parties for instance.  ;-P 
It's a form of balancing where you attain certain habits (not as strong as things you've done since childhood) but your mind can do these activities with more ease because of practice. Looking at those older INFPs it's pretty clear they didn't develop much and it's possible to stagnate. Some do improve without realizing it, and out of necessity but actively doing so (while using mindfulness practices, goal-setting, GTD, motivation etc) makes it easier than a shot in the dark.
I do agree it's probably a good idea to try to develop in new areas.  I have tended to do that if for no other reason than that for many things, living another half a life time with various weaknesses is probably more of a hassle than working on lessening the weaknesses and living with them less. ;-P

Just think about it. Look at a function you don't normally do and use mindfulness or the breath to relax your stress so that you can do the new task with less pain and resistance. Shouldn't enlightenment include freedom like this?

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/16/15 10:02 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I like your experiment. I've found the MBTI to be a useful model for understanding myself and others.

I'm an INTP, one of the types most likely to be mistaken for a robot, and even before discovering MBTI found activities that exercise my less developed cognitive functions (Si, Fe) have helped me become a more sociable (and socially acceptable) person. Dance, martial arts, and yoga have all made me more in tune with my body, more receptive to the emotions of others, and more emotionally expressive. I'll never excel at small talk (so tedious!), but these days can pass for an extrovert quite well if the situation calls for it and am less quickly drained by social interaction.

The best summary I've read of the theory described it as such: everyone has these same 16 rooms in their house, but we spend most of our time in just one. With practice, we can become comfortable spending more time in other rooms (i.e., gain fluency in using other functions).

What are your metrics for gauging improvement in this experiment?

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/16/15 1:08 PM as a reply to Ann.
Ann:
What are your metrics for gauging improvement in this experiment?
LOL! Step 1 is to be a person that uses metrics to gauge improvement. 

All joking aside each function has a goal or benefit so if I achieve more goals and gain more benefits from these exercises then that is the success. I also feel that certain functions may also help others so I'll be interested in seeing which functions actually become habits and which ones are persistently out of reach.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/16/15 3:30 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
LOL! Step 1 is to be a person that uses metrics to gauge improvement. 


Yeah, I suppose that's not really an INFP thing.

Well, good luck to you! It seems like even without significant tangible benefits, the insight into how others operate would be valuable.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/16/15 9:27 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:

Just think about it. Look at a function you don't normally do and use mindfulness or the breath to relax your stress so that you can do the new task with less pain and resistance. Shouldn't enlightenment include freedom like this?
What I do for that is kind of investigate  how I am thinking about the task, and typically I will notice various silly inaccurate thoughts, and noticing that which is unrealistic usually helps a lot.  Cuz really, there is not much that most of us have to do that is really so terrible as we tend to make it out. Seems like the mind likes to come up with preferences, so even when the various tasks are all fairly neutral, we will tend to divide them up into preferred and less preferred, even when the less preferred are not a big deal either.
-Eva

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/17/15 1:02 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva M Nie:
Richard Zen:

Just think about it. Look at a function you don't normally do and use mindfulness or the breath to relax your stress so that you can do the new task with less pain and resistance. Shouldn't enlightenment include freedom like this?
What I do for that is kind of investigate  how I am thinking about the task, and typically I will notice various silly inaccurate thoughts, and noticing that which is unrealistic usually helps a lot.  Cuz really, there is not much that most of us have to do that is really so terrible as we tend to make it out. Seems like the mind likes to come up with preferences, so even when the various tasks are all fairly neutral, we will tend to divide them up into preferred and less preferred, even when the less preferred are not a big deal either.
-Eva
Yes but remember the intentions are already leaning towards habitual behaviours so in the end it's enough practice to make the new task seem old and you become used to it.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/18/15 8:05 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Yesterday I was doing Se - Sensing Extroversion practice of just getting things done as quickly as possible with little reflection. This was interesting in that it was like being in the present moment in meditation but thoughts are allowed. The difference is that you don't give into too much reflection like a Sensing Introvert. There's definitely a speedy quality to it that gets you into flow quickly when doing it. I still crashed back to Sensing Introversion as that is more a habit for me but it was fun to try something else.

I'm going to start working on those difficult Te functions and see how that goes.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/20/15 1:22 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'm starting the Te practices and finding them very difficult because the mental contrasting goes into "I don't know" territory which is demotivating. I think because I've never been in encouraging environments I'll have to create encouraging self-talk over and over again expecially during periods of extinction when I try new things. Encouraging self-talk is necessary to create resilience when pursuing goals. The brain out of habit (even when enlightened) requires that new conditioning be put in to achieve goals. One discouraging thought and demotivation is activated.

Si - Create and maintain routines to conserve energy.

Si is now being cultivated. As an INFP it's often difficult to keep schedules and it's easy to do something else. To follow a morning ritual, and do it in order, is starting to be a little addictive. This one is starting to work.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/20/15 2:05 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Si - Create and maintain routines to conserve energy.

Si is now being cultivated. As an INFP it's often difficult to keep schedules and it's easy to do something else. To follow a morning ritual, and do it in order, is starting to be a little addictive. This one is starting to work.

This is extremely effective. Used to be a night owl, but for years have been getting up well before dawn for tea and meditation. Right after that, I do whatever tasks are most difficult or distasteful for me because that's when I have the most energy and momentum to get them done. These are by far my most productive project hours of the day. Once it's a solid habit, it takes virtually no energy or motivation to sustain--you just do it.

Mark Twain said if you have to eat a live frog, do it first thing in the morning. If you have to eat two frogs, eat the bigger one first.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/20/15 2:31 PM as a reply to Ann.
Ann:
Richard Zen:
Si - Create and maintain routines to conserve energy.

Si is now being cultivated. As an INFP it's often difficult to keep schedules and it's easy to do something else. To follow a morning ritual, and do it in order, is starting to be a little addictive. This one is starting to work.

This is extremely effective. Used to be a night owl, but for years have been getting up well before dawn for tea and meditation. Right after that, I do whatever tasks are most difficult or distasteful for me because that's when I have the most energy and momentum to get them done. These are by far my most productive project hours of the day. Once it's a solid habit, it takes virtually no energy or motivation to sustain--you just do it.

Mark Twain said if you have to eat a live frog, do it first thing in the morning. If you have to eat two frogs, eat the bigger one first.
The yoga and pushups are a good thing to do in the morning for me. It's easy to be sluggish and aversive on Monday morning at work if there's no exercise. The next hurdle is improving my cooking. That's one of the biggest weaknesses for me which is eating out. Though I do enjoy washing the dishes while I'm cooking. I end up finishing with them faster than a dishwasher.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/28/15 6:54 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I really enjoyed Steven Pressfield's Do the Work:

http://www.stevenpressfield.com/do-the-work/

It's something I'm adding to my practice which is to ask. Is there resistance here? And purposefully pushing through it. There's always resistance even with meditation but knowing that it makes it easier to move intentions to get things done and no excuses.

I'm also looking at how the biggest bang for my buck Intuition Extroversion and noticing that it's usefulness of getting me to try new things has that kind of resistance going on. If my auxiliary function is my biggest bang for my buck on MBTI growth then new experiences plus fighting resistance will be necessary beyond my Tertiary and Inferior functions. I can also see my Sensing Introversion can be too repetitive wanting to repeat the same habits over and over again, so I have to be conscious of falling into that and start using Thinking Extroversion and Intuition Extroversion.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
1/23/16 4:32 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Just recently been dealing with loneliness and just allowing the sharp pain in my chest to be there and let it pass away naturally. I'm getting more passionate and allowing vulnerability to return. It's not so scary once the meditation has been working for so long. Samsara and Nirvana are both empty. LOL! I'm also working with an MBTI expert on careers and thinking of career options. Exploring intrinsic motivation will be interesting.

What I'm enjoying the most is being able to do nothing and feel just fine. I think for many people including myself, once the stress is lower vulnerability has a beauty to it.

I finally finished my speech on Envy and I think any audience that listens to it will be able to understand it at a higher level. I'm sure I'll tweak it until I deliver it next year.

I'm off to see some strange people who say they can make meditation help with creative thinking. It's seems sketchy...we will see.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
1/24/16 10:04 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Well this Cloud Thinking Meditation ending up being some "new thing just coming out of China." 

I guessed it might be something related to Myers Briggs and I ended up being right. It was like the zig zag thinking style of MBTI without the Feeling part. The 95% not in your thinking style, is a group meditation where data is being gathered by getting diverging points of view (though limited by the participants and their experiences. To me this is more like Sensing. The next step is intuition which is brainstorming and you have to stay at this in the next stage to clarify which intuitions are more realisitic. Then it's Thinking which is making a goal-setting system step by step on what to do and then taking action.

I pointed out the Feeling aspect of the MBTI zig zag in that harmony must be taken into account.

So much for something "new". LOL!

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
2/2/16 11:51 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I've been cleaning up my apartment more and find myself enjoying entertainment less, and focusing on my speeches, especially my speech on Envy in psychology which I'm quite proud of. Entertainment now is washing dishes and doing laundry and going to work and ESTJ stuff. I'm I turning into an ESTJ? emoticon  I'm also doing some soul searching regarding careers and looking at social work, and psychology which is diametrically opposite to what I have been doing and just trying to stay open minded. As they connect with my hobby of psychology, I'm getting some intrinsic motivation to go for it but naturally since I've invested so much into accounting there's a mental tug-of-war. My compassionate side is yearning towards a helping profession and my prior investments of years and energy in a mediocre-to-failed career (based on family expectations) holding me back. The yearning to help people was always there but in the backseat. It's now in the frontseat and honking the horn.

I tried some insight meditation for the first time in a long time. Noting without labels and looking at all experiences as impermanent. I can tell my brain is much better than in the past (needing meditation less and less) but strong urges for romantic relationships as time passes, needing a career with a future and stability are looking quite stormy and violent when I watch them with my eyes closed. The storm is whirling around my chest. I'm using the book Inner Bonding by Margaret Paul which has our urges be the inner child and the adult is our actions to satisfy it and bond with it. It makes me want to try new things and continue Intuition Extroversion more, which is a chaotic exploratory function. My Feeling Introversion needs more experiences than the same old same old. It makes me look at our urges (as impermanent as they are) as things that can be balanced and enjoyed in healthy ways. It brings me back to Loretta Breuning and the neurotransmitters and how a conventional happiness is having a balance of the different ones and not lacking any one severely. I can tell I'm STARVING for oxytocin LOL! Much of this is probably because of developing extroversion with speeches and just age. As one is introverted earlier in life one gets to be more extroverted in time. My career counselor is ENFP and is now becoming more introverted as we are both middle aged. It's quite interesting. She looks at all my meditation practices as "advanced coping mechanisms" but she is very happy to talk to someone about psychology that has "done so much work."

Much of our neurosis is how our parenting always left something behind and how we look for comfort in others to fill in the gap and of course that can be a danger because other people are dukkha and cannot give complete fulfillment since they are looking for their own particular fulfillment. Self-compassion is most likely what I need to condition into me more. I'm going to try out a Mahamevnawa Theravada monestary (in a residential house) and focus on some basic concentration and metta. Dry weaning seems to be at it's end of usefulness, and conditioning is so important to me now.

The most interesting part of this is how much time seems to be slower during this period of uncertainty. Let me guess? Stress makes time seem slower, and less stress (like Flow or meditation) makes time seem faster? Then Nirvana is no time. emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
2/17/16 1:22 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I've decided on psychology. It'll be an odyssey to get my Masters and I hope to do some volunteering to learn counseling. Even though it's considered an INFP job I probably will continue developing Te in my studies. I bumped into a Social Worker in a cafe and she felt there was a lot of possibility of getting worse from the experience constantly seeing trauma all the time. For some strange reason I want to see more trauma. emoticon She seemed negative about the experience. I don't know what she expected. There's no point in meeting people who have no mental health issues. Why do the job?

There are so many types of psychology I'll have to see what's available and focus on it. Many psychologists have a practice on the side but not enough clients to make it full time and so they rely on hospitals for employment.

A book I'm reading on improving therapeutic skills says that over 250 methods work but none stand out from the pack in any way. Patients benefit from psychotherapy but it's hard to notice when people are going into recidivism. Feedback is necessary to see what seems to work better than others. I'm told that psychiatrists don't like meditation and psychologists are mixing it with CBT but it's not studied enough. CBT is more short-term in a crisis but meditation works in the long-run.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
2/18/16 12:29 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard:

I've decided on psychology. It'll be an odyssey to get my Masters and I hope to do some volunteering to learn counseling.


Congrats!  FWIW I have had incredible experiences as an EMDR therapy patient.  I've also heard of DBT working really well for people.  There are lots of certifications you can get and the best therapists I've had work within multiple modalities.  

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
2/18/16 12:35 AM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
Richard:

I've decided on psychology. It'll be an odyssey to get my Masters and I hope to do some volunteering to learn counseling.


Congrats!  FWIW I have had incredible experiences as an EMDR therapy patient.  I've also heard of DBT working really well for people.  There are lots of certifications you can get and the best therapists I've had work within multiple modalities.  
Thank you! It's so nice to hear success stories.emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
2/20/16 9:39 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'm reading about Hakome and find it to be very interesting. They use mindfulness, CBT and body responses. They get the patient to be mindful and then look at body movements and ask them (with mindfulness) to examine what those meanings are of body responses. Because of the brain wirings (they call it organization) if you continue assessing needs with mindfulness you'll see the different connections and needs the client has and uncover connections that are hidden by intellectualization. 

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/19/16 3:22 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
After doing some speeches especially seeing how efficient I can make practicing (Si), I find that after writing a speech I need to chunk it, and start practicing recalling the material sooner rather than later. It was helpful for a 20 min speech on making speeches. I recalled the opening and the ending before completing the middle. I'm getting much better at (Se) and instead of being irritated if I forget something I just plow myself back into the work. That has been a big help to just be in the body and continue with work. Thanissaro Bhikkhu has been a huge help on the breathing side and how to make it more comfortable and using it when doing tasks.

My (Ne) exploring has been getting in the way of my (Si.) Though I'm more neat and clean there's loads more practice that has to happen. Getting things done for an INFP is so important otherwise all the brainstorming doesn't lead to any action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVPxmz_PvUw

This video shows that you can overload in self-improvement and that focusing on one thing at a time works better. This is why what you do the most (public speaking) improves faster than other things.

There's also critiques of the 10,000 hour rule like Tim Ferris who say that there is a better way to gain skills:

1. Creating feedback loops to check your progress (Perform an action, View results of an action, Use those results to improve the next action.)
2. Deliberate practice of sub-skills that make up an overall skills.
3. Teach it to someone else.

This will be particularly helpful for my Cognitive Psychology class. )

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/21/16 12:16 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
I bumped into a Social Worker in a cafe and she felt there was a lot of possibility of getting worse from the experience constantly seeing trauma all the time. For some strange reason I want to see more trauma. emoticon She seemed negative about the experience. I don't know what she expected. There's no point in meeting people who have no mental health issues. Why do the job?
Well if you think about it, many social workers probably do not come from a background as harsh as the one they end up working in.  So they are a bit naive to start with, often, maybe having a decent family and middle class life a their main experience.  So then if you end up working daily with crack addicts, neglected abused children, gang violence, etc, the problem can feel so overwelming and the number of social workers so small, you'll probably feel like the problem can't be fixed really, and it's all just a waste of time, seeing that kind of thing day in and day out, it can slowly drag a person down.  Plus there will be a perceptual readjustment, because although logically a person may now that a problem exists, it becomes much more of a visceral shock when immersed in it over the long haul.  Victories may often be either small or subtle, huge improvements in the lives of patients may be rare, the extent of suffering that they have and do endure may be great.  Patients will often lie to you, not do as they promise, or seem unable to see the most obvious of points you try to make, instead lapsing into preferred methods of excuse mongering or blaming others.  Bureaucracy may often prevent you from doing your best work as well.  After a while, you may find yourself wondering if you are making a difference or not.   You could see how dealing with such on a daily basis could lead more than a few down the road to depression and burnout themselves. 
-Eva

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/21/16 8:17 AM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie:
Richard Zen:
I bumped into a Social Worker in a cafe and she felt there was a lot of possibility of getting worse from the experience constantly seeing trauma all the time. For some strange reason I want to see more trauma. emoticon She seemed negative about the experience. I don't know what she expected. There's no point in meeting people who have no mental health issues. Why do the job?
Well if you think about it, many social workers probably do not come from a background as harsh as the one they end up working in.  So they are a bit naive to start with, often, maybe having a decent family and middle class life a their main experience.  So then if you end up working daily with crack addicts, neglected abused children, gang violence, etc, the problem can feel so overwelming and the number of social workers so small, you'll probably feel like the problem can't be fixed really, and it's all just a waste of time, seeing that kind of thing day in and day out, it can slowly drag a person down.  Plus there will be a perceptual readjustment, because although logically a person may now that a problem exists, it becomes much more of a visceral shock when immersed in it over the long haul.  Victories may often be either small or subtle, huge improvements in the lives of patients may be rare, the extent of suffering that they have and do endure may be great.  Patients will often lie to you, not do as they promise, or seem unable to see the most obvious of points you try to make, instead lapsing into preferred methods of excuse mongering or blaming others.  Bureaucracy may often prevent you from doing your best work as well.  After a while, you may find yourself wondering if you are making a difference or not.   You could see how dealing with such on a daily basis could lead more than a few down the road to depression and burnout themselves. 
-Eva
I understand but still she's getting paid big bucks and has a huge pension. There are many who get paid very little with no pension and simply "help" people who are spoiled executives. If one focusses on the successes and already has expectations that you can't help everyone then they will be more prepared and the job will be more fullfilling. emoticon If more of them meditated there would be less burnout.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/21/16 12:29 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:

I understand but still she's getting paid big bucks and has a huge pension. There are many who get paid very little with no pension and simply "help" people who are spoiled executives. If one focusses on the successes and already has expectations that you can't help everyone then they will be more prepared and the job will be more fullfilling. emoticon If more of them meditated there would be less burnout.
If you have studied cognitive dissonance yet, that research suggests that the more you get paid, the less your perceived liking of the job is likely to be. When the earliest studies were done, it was expected that the reverse would be found so the inexpected results and theory that followed and many studies confirming it made a big splash in the psych world.  Suffice it to say that research suggests that a lot of money will not make you like your job better, perhaps even the reverse may happen, you will blame your doing of a job that is difficult and perhaps at times unpleasant on the money  instead of on internal gratification.  The research showing this happens is huge.  But it's contrary to what you would expect.  Psych can be interesting that way. 

But I do agree realistic expectations should help and that is why I am saying what I am saying.  Those that lead a sheltered life may not be capable of having that as much either.  IMO, psychology is super fascinating, but the study of it is a diff kind of animal and a diff kind of work  from actually working as a clinician.  May you have success at both, I would look forward to hearing some good stories and info from you about what you learn!  ;-P
-Eva 

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/21/16 11:55 PM as a reply to Eva Nie.
Eva Nie:
Richard Zen:

I understand but still she's getting paid big bucks and has a huge pension. There are many who get paid very little with no pension and simply "help" people who are spoiled executives. If one focusses on the successes and already has expectations that you can't help everyone then they will be more prepared and the job will be more fullfilling. emoticon If more of them meditated there would be less burnout.
If you have studied cognitive dissonance yet, that research suggests that the more you get paid, the less your perceived liking of the job is likely to be. When the earliest studies were done, it was expected that the reverse would be found so the inexpected results and theory that followed and many studies confirming it made a big splash in the psych world.  Suffice it to say that research suggests that a lot of money will not make you like your job better, perhaps even the reverse may happen, you will blame your doing of a job that is difficult and perhaps at times unpleasant on the money  instead of on internal gratification.  The research showing this happens is huge.  But it's contrary to what you would expect.  Psych can be interesting that way. 

But I do agree realistic expectations should help and that is why I am saying what I am saying.  Those that lead a sheltered life may not be capable of having that as much either.  IMO, psychology is super fascinating, but the study of it is a diff kind of animal and a diff kind of work  from actually working as a clinician.  May you have success at both, I would look forward to hearing some good stories and info from you about what you learn!  ;-P
-Eva 
Thanks!

I think that what you're talking about is intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation, but money does have some value in that up to 100K per year it does make things more comfortable, but ultimately good relationships take the cake.

Richard

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
4/24/16 1:51 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
As I've looked at the different types I've decided to use all the types. I found that Beebe was really good at getting an understanding of how we can use all the types (including ones that are unconscious). We project negativity of certain skills we don't have on others that do have them, but with individuation it's possible to learn to see the benefit of all types and become more balanced. We still have preferences but when we use all the functions to benefit our goals type matters less.

For example Intuition Introversion is unconscious in me but it's taking many options (Intuition Extroversion, my 2nd function), and narrowing it down to the best one I should pursue. It's a form of prioritization that is necessary in goals. Sensing Extroversion is another function that is unconscious though I've done some practices with meditation that bring it to the forefront. My mind has imagery, creativity and music that interrupts but I just return to what is, but instead of meditating I actually act on what is towards my goals. This is the lynchpin for my goals which is reminding myself what I'm actually doing to support my goals RIGHT NOW. As an INFP I'm missing all the good stuff of an ENFJ and it's needed. Yet I don't have to be my shadow in an ENFJ way. I can use the following Life Guide by McAlpine to do just that:

http://www.type-resources.com/Group-Exercises/The-Eight-Functions-as-Life-Guides

Start with Introverted Feeling (Fi) by asking yourself, "What is really, really important to me?

Follow with Introverted Thinking (Ti) to define or name what is really important in a way that allows you to assess your progress or achievement.

Once you have determined what is important and know how to gauge your progress toward obtaining the objective, use Extraverted Sensation (Se) to identify if your current activities are supporting the achievement of what is important to you.

Next, use Introverted Sensation (Si) to identify how supportive or detrimental your past activities have been toward moving you closer to achieving what is important to you. 

Engage Extraverted Intuition (Ne) to generate possible activities for supporting what is important to you.

Allow Introverted Intuition (Ni) the opportunity to identify which of the possible activities is most supportive of your achieving what is important to you.

Now that you have identified the most supportive activities use Extraverted Thinking (Te) to organize all the stages of the activity in a way that supports or facilitates accomplishment.

Complete your decision process by engaging Extraverted Feeling (Fe) to consider how this activity affects the other people in your life who are important to you, and if you will be pleased with that affect. 

So I can do all the goal setting instructions and Flow questioning to identify stress and boredom, but I can also use this template for including all the function attitudes so I'm less lopsided in my actual behaviour.

What I did was to make an excel sheet with a tab for each function and put the questions in there. I list all my goals and follow the instructions and make choices on priorities (doesn't have to be perfect) and keep adjusting the lists on each function as my knock off goals or new goals replace old ones. It flows and adjusts and shows how there are multiple small goals that can be worked on with the Se page. As you type what you did you can replace those Se actions into the Si actions which record what you did to support a goal and what didn't support a goal. Si is memory and it can keep track of your misteps and remind you of what worked before. Instead of developing my 4th function (Inferior Te) directly I can setup Te with a whole bunch of thoughtfulness so that even if Te is just a simple list of processes and things to do. It doesn't have to be a complex top function to help me.

My Fe is also unconscious and my lack of boundaries has forced me to develop them and I can see the benefits already as when one creates healthy boundaries you become more assertive and people are forced to respond with reciprocity and those that don't just fall out of your life. You become more autonomous and self-contained and confident.

It's not really a Myers-Briggs Adventure anymore but a Jungian one of Individuation.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/14/16 7:22 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
This individuation process, of developing the functions by engaging the shadow first, is yielding benefits. The shadow is always operating (even powerfully influencing your actions).

The shadow is all the Jungian functions that are unconscious because we ignore or hate how we are bad at them and project that hatred on others who are good at them. They are the opposite introverted and extroverted functions in our conscious 4 part stack. By looking at what you hate as a possible shadow situation sends the signal right away that there's a function being ignored that has to be integrated. The fifth function is the opposite of the top Hero function so it's a Nemesis. The 6th function is a critical parent opposite the 2nd function's Good parent. The 3rd function is the Trickster opposite the 3rd tertiary relief function. Finally the 4th function which is the aspiration has a opposite demon function.

Each function has an attitude and figuring out the function's attitude is the start. Use meditation to let go of the dominant function's attitude and then develop with concentration the next attitude that is in the shadow and you get some relief.

To do this you take the function and try to use it properly with the right functional attitude. The biggest problem in my shadow is the 6th function Ni - Introverted Intuition. It predicts the future always negatively (because the shadow is treated as negative on oneself and others). It's a critical parent that needs to be ignored because it's so inaccurate and ill-developed.. Instead I drop the function and reengage it by actually trying to consciously make an accurate prediction, and it starts feeling better and the shadow elements fall away creating healthy relief. I'm going to have to repeat this over and over again to get long-term benefits.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/14/16 7:39 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard:

Instead I drop the function and reengage it by actually trying to consciously make an accurate prediction, and it starts feeling better and the shadow elements fall away creating healthy relief. I'm going to have to repeat this over and over again to get long-term benefits.


I love this attitude.  It's similar to what I've been doing with anapana, and it works just as much as insight practice does in providing real benefit.  To me Sila is about habit formation for the benefit of oneself and others.  But that formation can only come with hardcore repetition. 

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/14/16 9:31 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:


The shadow is all the Jungian functions that are unconscious because we ignore or hate how we are bad at them and project that hatred on others who are good at them. 
Yes, but, the Shadow, is just what we are unconscious of, in the moment, and this unawareness may of things either  positive or  negative.  

Just suggesting that one could also benefit from recognizing the good, wholesome , and skillful qualities in the Shadow...

Are you aware of the many good and wholesome qualities you already have in hand Richard Zen? 

The ones in your Shadow that is?

Psi

P.S.  I am not stating that you do not know of the positive side of the Shadow according to Jung already or anything, just discussing stuff. emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/14/16 9:43 PM as a reply to Psi.
[quote=
]
Are you aware of the many good and wholesome qualities you already have in hand Richard Zen? 

The ones in your Shadow that is?


Rhetorical questions, of course...

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/14/16 10:28 PM as a reply to Noah.
Noah:
Richard:

Instead I drop the function and reengage it by actually trying to consciously make an accurate prediction, and it starts feeling better and the shadow elements fall away creating healthy relief. I'm going to have to repeat this over and over again to get long-term benefits.


I love this attitude.  It's similar to what I've been doing with anapana, and it works just as much as insight practice does in providing real benefit.  To me Sila is about habit formation for the benefit of oneself and others.  But that formation can only come with hardcore repetition. 
Exactly. It took the repetition of negative projection to cause the old conditioning so now it'll take repetition of seeing the benefits of unconscious functions to get out.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/14/16 10:36 PM as a reply to Psi.
Psi:
Richard Zen:


The shadow is all the Jungian functions that are unconscious because we ignore or hate how we are bad at them and project that hatred on others who are good at them. 
Yes, but, the Shadow, is just what we are unconscious of, in the moment, and this unawareness may of things either  positive or  negative.  

Just suggesting that one could also benefit from recognizing the good, wholesome , and skillful qualities in the Shadow...

Are you aware of the many good and wholesome qualities you already have in hand Richard Zen? 


In the shadow not really. I find they are weak and negative from so much negative projection. The benefit of the shadow is that it constantly asserts it self as a means of the greater self to become whole with all the functions but one can go through life without realizing it. Eg. If I look at negative predictions of Ni as inaccurate or not-to-be-believed automatically it's like a noting practice but instead if you pickup the function and use it like an INFJ uses it then it works properly and the darkness lifts. But if one doesn't study Jung and just automatically follows the negative shadow they will find a glue or mud getting in the way as they use their other functions to get things done. It's terribly inefficient because they don't know why. The typical development without any studying of Jung is getting bored with top functions and utilizing weaker functions out of interest.

The rare person who is individuated doesn't identify with any functions as a self and looks at them as tools to pickup or put down when appropriate. This sounds a lot like a person who can let go of preferences. emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/15/16 6:05 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard, thanks for the great DhO journal and congrats on going into psychology!

It's been a while since I tuned in and I can mostly follow the recent jungian info, mostly cross referencing with John Beebe's info on Wiki, but I'm curious where I could find more info on the cross walk between a given Function and it's shadow? It sounds very interesting but I'm just barely able to follow.

BTW, what was you final thinking on Haikome? It was something I was researching years ago, but it never quite got traction for me. I'm curious about your analysis of the methods. 

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/15/16 9:08 AM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Richard, thanks for the great DhO journal and congrats on going into psychology!

It's been a while since I tuned in and I can mostly follow the recent jungian info, mostly cross referencing with John Beebe's info on Wiki, but I'm curious where I could find more info on the cross walk between a given Function and it's shadow? It sounds very interesting but I'm just barely able to follow.

BTW, what was you final thinking on Haikome? It was something I was researching years ago, but it never quite got traction for me. I'm curious about your analysis of the methods. 
I'm still working on the Jungian/Beebe stuff. He charges lots for his workshops on Type-resources.com so I'm not 100% sure. There is a tempting audio collection on individuation but I'm worried that it will be stuff I already know.  He has a book coming out in July that I'm eager to see but I'm going to look at that book first before I spend hundreds on his audio files. Type is highly complicated and the Hartzler's are a good place to find exercises in developing the functions. Marie-Louise Von Franz warned that learning weak functions requires putting them in consciousness daily with activity for a few years before they are assimilated. 

How it works is that the Anima/Animus (somewhat dated concept now) is our aspiration. I'm an INFP so my Te function is the Anima. You have to engage with the shadow functions first (for me ENFJ or INFJ). From what I'm gathering from Jung and Von Franz we can use meditation to let go of our top function's attitude (because if we use it while working on other functions it just pours hatred on them and misunderstands them.)

I found the MBTI site which lists the attitudes you have to develop along with the functions:

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/understanding-mbti-type-dynamics/the-eight-function-attitudes.htm


Without cultivating the attitude it won't work. Also the weak functions are like children so you have to engage in the exercises with a sense of play and with lots of patience. You would never rush a child with deadlines. Being around critical people and criticizing yourself with impatience again makes it impossible to improve.

Gary and Margaret Hartzler have workbooks that have good exercises you can creatively add to your pursuits but they warn that you need to have a purpose or reason to develop them or else there's no motivation to develop those weak functions. The life-guides example in a post earlier shows how to choose which exercises from the functions you should use for your goals and then you can add exercises from the workbooks to increase the development of the functions further.

http://8functions.com/BooksnPublications.php

What Jung and Von Franz say with individuation (though very vague) is to develop your shadow functions because they are operating negatively all the time. As you do this you constantly encounter the Anima in dreams and the attitude. You would still develop your 2nd through to your fourth conscious functions in order but the shadow work will reduce the negative reactivity that happens when you pursue goals. We use these shadow functions all the time but are unconscious to how they affect us and they can derail us. They stop being negative when we stop resisting them "What resists persists". They can be healing and provide useful tools that we can finally see the value of when we develop their attitudes. It make's it a smoother ride when you are developing your conscious functions. When you are individuated more you identify less with functions as a self and the self becomes like the typical metaphor of a toolbox with functions as tools.

It's fun doing these practices after seeing emptiness everywhere. People think you're 3 different people because they see more facets of yourself. These functions are empty and can be developed, if you have a good purpose for doing so.

If you want to look more into the shadow in terms of family stuff, psychological baggage and relationships then look at books like:

Romancing the shadow
Meeting the shadow

It's probably faster to just look at the functions and develop their attitudes along with the functional exercises. Remember it takes years to develop these functions in any useful way.

Currently I'm trying to look into shadow work and relationships and how type mixes in with that but like with all relationship advice, anyone who can handle differences and is flexible will have better relationships than most. Projecting negative shadows as you can expect isn't good for any relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEK1izBNsc4

In regards to Hakomi I feel that Hakomi is only as good as the specialist. I think it's a good tool but like with 250 other APA supported psychology methods it's only good for people who benefit from it. A child or a severely handicapped person will not benefit and will need different methods.

I dated a Hakomi instructor and found her to be dry and couldn't even use adjectives to describe basic likes or dislikes. Her descriptions of training sessions looked like lots of dark night symptoms and psychological baggage bubbling up in the trainees. They have nothing on the monks. The west lacks a wet path. Anybody on this site who is good with meditation and espcially with the wet path are already ahead, you just need to learn western cognitive therapy which is absolutely necessary for moving forward. If meditation doesn't deal with personal shame, defectiveness etc it won't work.

Hakomi when done properly is like this:

  • Be non-judgmental because the patient will clam up if they see the slightest judgment on facial expressions and body language.
  • Get the patient to use mindfulness to make the unconscious material bubble up.
  • Use cognitive therapy on those contents to satisfy the patient's need for validation and satisfy their most deep wants of forgiveness and acceptance that they can't get anywhere else. Eg. A workaholic can be told "can you love yourself even if you're not working?" Then they cry and heal.
  • Use mindfulness on body movements that may include other repressed thoughts and do as above on them.
It's a practice that is learning from doing and learning typical avoidance behaviours and to try and coax them out without looking like an interrogator. 

I would just say for personal use, to use meditation and Margaret Paul's Inner Bonding for yourself and you will heal your emotional wounds and memories much better. Eg. Bring up a memory that is painful and give love to that memory. You validate emotions and people but not bad behaviours. Parent your wounded child. Like a parent act on your needs like your needs are the child and your actions to protect those needs are the parent. Meditation can cut off healthy needs and be overly repressive.

Also people often have a lot of shame due to sexual encounters/incest, addictions, losses, divorces, etc. I would recommend the Responsibility Pie in Mind over Mood by Padesky. Put some slices of responsibility to names and faces in your past. It matches well with a cause and effect attitude from Buddhism about unconsciousness in early life and not taking 100% responsbility for all your conditionings that others put into you. Once you get out of shame you have to stay out with constant self-development.

Have fun!

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/15/16 5:35 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Thanks very much for that reply, looking forward to exploring that info!

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
5/28/16 12:46 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I decided to take Beebe individuation courses and they are helpful. My Si function is my third function and third functions are weak. How it was described is that we often have to practice and integrate the shadow (in my case Se) before we integrate our conscious function. The top two functions and shadows are developed enough so that the conscious functions can be chosen and the others thrown back into the shadow. The bottom two conscious functions are pretty weak so integrating the shadow functions allows their negativity to weaken their hold on me and allows enough differentiation so that both introverted and extroverted functions can be understood. 

Si is following procedures, lists, tradition, what worked well in the past etc and I find because it's only a "child" in development it gets me into trouble. So I meditate and dip into my Se shadow function so I can take in more details in the present moment and stick with my Si process. Beebe says that we often have to integrate the shadow before we can move onto the bottom two functions. This means I'll have to integrate Ti before I can really get into Te.

The inferior function can be tried but is often so weak that it becomes a gateway to the shadow. How this happens is that because the function is so weak it's an area of humility and embarassment so now the top Hero function can stop dominating so much and the shadow functions can start popping up in dreams.

I can see how my Se function is needed to keep me present while I work with boring processes. For development of the 3rd (Si) and 4th (Te) functions I'll have to go to the breath and be very present in the body sensations and 5 senses and keep refreshing that while I do repetitive routines and tasks. As Se is integrated (over months and years probably) it'll be more automatic and access to Si and it's development will be easier.

As usual I wish I knew this earlier in life. emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
8/5/16 9:10 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Well I'm just starting my undergraduate courses as a middle aged person, but enjoying it. Working on distress lines is an eye opener. The new insight for me is Jung's individuation. To notice that we use all eight functions and how therapeutic it is to learn how to use shadow functions properly. I would recommend 8 keys by Dario Nardi. The Type Resources website is also teaching me about function couplings. When you look, you can see that all functions can be coupled together (not necessarily in the best way) but there is a HUGE array of options including introvert function-introvert function coupled together. I'm much less bigoted against people who developed functions I didn't, because I understand them better.

In terms of meditation I still do it, but it's so weird. I find it more about enjoyment then NEEDING it. The one big shift has been that uncanniness of existence but with a Godly religious sense. I thank God with all my heart but I can't put a religious label on it or a religious denomination. Existence is a mystery and being honest about that brings a lot of wonder. Putting labels on it just ruins it.

My foodie addiction is reducing slowly and I thank Thanissaro Bhkkhu for helping with that. It's very hard but you need to constantly compare the enjoyment of the breath with your addiction so that the breath starts winning more and more. This is probably the area most resistant for me.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/6/16 1:24 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'm still meditating. I enjoy it more as a way to let go of stress and then return back to work. It's also a reminder to see what I'm doing to myself in mental movements that causes stress and just stop doing that. I've added some Christian Grace and Therese Lisieux to make sure I love all my imperfections as I try to improve myself. Love is a huge part of loosening tension, core shame, and it's pretty clear I'm a recovering co-dependent that lacked self-love. The C-PTSD is improving. Learning to create boundaries and saying no without feeling guilt is very healthy and aids meditation enormously. Empaths unfortunately can be targeted by Cluster B types by having emotions ride the rollercoaster of other people's emotions. They can manipulate your emotions by this. By stepping back and looking at people's emotions as THEIR emotions and to take ownership of my own relieves a lot of stress that meditation doesn't really touch. "That's your reality, not mine!"

I've learned a lot more about human envy and I'll try to distill it after I finish my term-paper on it. A lot of human behaviour is very predictable now. The brain unconsciously makes social measurements and releases stress when unfavorable comparisons are made. It's so unconscious that people deny it all the time but the body language and eye movements are telling. Even watching sports and audience reactions show that it's not really that hidden. The science really backs up Robert Greene's books on Mastery and Power in the parts talking about envy. Great gifts or skills you have, or intelligence instantaeously spark envy in others. I'm catching people faster and faster with their body language. emoticon

I'm still doing individuation. To get to my Sensing Introversion going I'm acting like an ESTP with Sensing Extraversion (helped my being as gapless present as possible) and Thinking introversion to create clearly defined goals. You basically get engaged with situations and learn by doing. What you learn helps with Ti frameworks. "Oh this is how it works". I'm getting more done this way and also accessing my Anima of Thinking Extraversion which is just basically thinking a few moves ahead and acting on it, then evaluating how well I did. This is now at a play level but according to Beebe using your 4th function creates integrity in you. INFPs can be "head in the clouds" with lots of creativity but not enough action. Taking action makes your dreams come to reality. I'm using Brendon Burchard's courses to come up with Implmentation Intentions (If, then statements) to recondition my home and work life. It's starting to have an impact. I especially like how he reminds people that you have to generate motivation, it just doesn't come to you. The result is I'm more positive and tend to avoid negative art and news which just drains your energy. In a lot of ways the self-work is moving from thoughts and plans to actual actions which is a good thing for me.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/3/17 1:26 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
I'm going to be doing a self-study-retreat until May and report experiences and obstacles as they happen. I'll be using below the book review I did 3 years ago:


http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5576267

Effortless attention

Doing the Ross Rosenberg practices helped a lot. You can take meditation and use it to heal wounds and shame by actually triggering the wound with remembrance and then heal with understanding of causes and effects, and forgiveness. Unconscious wounds operate all the time and need constant healing and meditation can be a flashlight into the mind to find those unhealed wounds. The more healing you do in this fashion, the more basic self-esteem arises. The next level of self-esteem is to develop skillful actions so that any low self-esteem beliefs are shown to be false. This is often how we are attacked by bullies and even influences from well meaning people. The placebo effect responds to beliefs and they can be hijacked so that the new negative beliefs operate and yield their bad karma. Having positive beliefs (grounded in reality) can be supported by positive actions.

As I study I'm going to balance mindfulness with immersion with the work. Concentration can be developed in the meditative way but it also can be developed by trying to do something really well. In the past meditation just interfered with studying so I had to abandon it. It's because too much attention on the breath takes up too much bandwidth. Even just slightly staying with the breath is a form of multi-tasking which is always inferior to just continuing to work.

To develop effortless attention in reality will require relaxing, soothing, reduced fabrication mindfulness when there's rest and just trying to study well with proper methods as the other concentration that allows more thinking.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/4/17 9:12 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
So far for the first date of my retreat I've been doing the equivalent of a stay-cation mixed with studies. I've put together a notebook with all my notes in one place where all my self-development checklists are stored. With Brendon Burchard's self-development tools and other books I've reviewed it's impossible to keep everything in my brain. His monthly videos have helped me understand that I need to be constantly rekindling my desires for good actions to keep congruent thoroughout the day. I think a pro and con analysis, especially imagery which goes like this: "Wouldn't it be nice if this was done before I stopped?" "If I stopped before this was done then I would still have to do it later." Then the motivation to continue gives more energy. The brain likes to stop after an activity and go on permanent vacation/automatic pilot and it will ad infinitum unless you bring back the motivational thoughts right away. Focusing on how to do something well is definitely the best way to get into flow and learning to direct intentions towards details of doing something well creates enough focus that meditation is not needed. Of course if there's idleness then meditation can fill in the bandwidth to prevent short-term gratification impulses from taking over. Inner child practices of asking "what is in the best interest of my inner child right now?" can be a re-parenting alternative to a pro and con analysis.

In the past doing things was much more difficult because of C-PTSD flashbacks from prior bullying. So healing is a huge part of being able to do things and get things done. If you are fighting flashbacks it's very hard to concentrate and get anything done. Sensitive types like HSPs are probably going to have to either reduce their sensitivity by fighting back against the inevitable bullying and learn to enjoy it in a sadistic way (albeit within legal rules), or find environments that are less political or it's back to more C-PTSD wounds over and over again.

http://www.hrzone.com/perform/people/highly-sensitive-people-in-the-workplace-from-shame-to-fame

Starting a business or developing a needed skillset that provides a situation where power = applied knowledge will have to be a must. If you're a commodity in the labour force then you're easily replaced. Being aware of envy and jealousy also is important. In my experience, if I looked like I wanted the job I was doing I would be taken for granted. If I looked like I was looking for work elsewhere then I get treated better. Desire increases when your availability is in question, and when it looks like others desire you. It's sad that we have to keep teasing bosses with being aloof just to get them to treat us better, but it's almost like they deserve it by their unconscious behaviour. That practically want you to do this.

After studying Girard I've come to the conclusion that acting or volition is really imitation. To do something is to imitate from memory what to do, based on past experiences and ultimately from a model imitated sometime in the near or far past. It becomes more effortless when viewed as imitation rather than a forced intention. "What would be a quality attempt at this task?" brings up a storehouse of methods to imitate based on one's skill set, and forces one to slow down and take in more details. That's probably a hint for good meditation as well. Everything in our society is about getting things fast but slowing down is essential to learn a skill properly. Then when the skill is well developed and automatic, it can be performed faster.

I also completed a preliminary synthesis of Giannini, Gillette, Douglas and Beebe's MBTI work with Giannini's compass for organization. There are 16 MBTI types sectioned into 4 groups on a compass going counter clockwise. It starts in the Warrior and ends in the Warrior. The warrior types (ST) ask "what problem is the world bringing me?" Then moving to the (SF) parental functions "what matters?" Next is the Oceanic (NF) types "What might be?" It gets processed and systemized with the Magician functions (NT) "how might it all fit or how might it work?" Then it returns to the Warrior where plans and actions developed from the prior questions are moved on.

I now will probably continue on my Gratitude Journal nightly and I now know that I have to consistently imagine goal-congruent activities or else the consistency of action will fail. "What you think you become".

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/5/17 11:00 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
And just a reminder to myself if I go back in to old habits of low self-esteem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMekagB74OY&t=800s
Marisa Peer - 9 steps to mastermind your life

1. Know your enough.
2. Praise yourself.
3. Remove destructive criticism.
4. Your brain does exactly what you think.
5. Your brain moves you away from pain.
6. Pictures & words in your head determine your thoughts.
7. Successful people do what they hate to get what they want.
8. Don't take no for an answer.
9. Take action everyday.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/30/17 1:22 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
After falling off the wagon so many times and seeing how I get back on, I really need to do Thinking Extraversion as a visualization meditation practice. The environment is constantly impinging on our conditioning and unless I do lots of visual imagery of my goals and a pro and con analysis, I'll just end up falling off the wagon again (Damn delicious expensive sushi!) Looking at my old soup and comparing it to $70 sushi meals makes it hard to resist.

The times where I got out I did the following:

Think of the allure of sushi. (Craving rises).
Think of the downside, which is $70 dollars gone. (Aversion rises).
Think of old soup (Some aversion and craving arise)
Think of the benefits of not paying $70. (Craving arises to eat old soup).

I'll see how far this takes me. Stay away from Salmon sashimi!

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/30/17 2:25 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Oh my, that's an advanced practice -- sushi... must... resist! emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/30/17 7:20 PM as a reply to shargrol.
shargrol:
Oh my, that's an advanced practice -- sushi... must... resist! emoticon

It is advanced practice! emoticon Or at least it feels like it. emoticon

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/31/17 8:13 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
What about cheap sushi?  There's an Izakaya near me that has $5 rolls that I would put in the "mid-low" (not low) quality range.  I find them to be quite edible.  I don't know what Myers & Briggs would say though...

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
3/31/17 6:33 PM as a reply to Noah D.
It's just co-dependency on my part. It leads to all kinds of addictions, including food addictions, but it's getting better with self-love. Yes there are some cheaper options, but I should be able to eat my own food. The dopamine part of the mind wants things to be easier and higher quality. It's a form of self-abandonment, but stocking the pantry and just paying attention to the benefits of eating my own food and seeing what I can do with more money on other things, then the motivation gets controlled and moved in the right direction.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
4/1/17 9:49 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Wow!  I have the_exact_same_problem.  You described it well.  For me I'm hoping visualizing parents a lot will fix it. Antidoting Theravadan style for 12 months has already helped a lot.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
4/1/17 6:11 PM as a reply to Noah D.
I'm going to go back to my old notes with some changes and make this the motivation method of accessing the different functions/skills.

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5720286

ESTJ is very much a person that can delay gratification and already does pro and con analyses as a habit. But without imagery to condition it is just an aim. Self-regulation takes practice and involves different modes of thinking to counter hindrances. I still think that meditation is good for relaxing fabrications but we need the desire part of the brain to move forward. Again many people already do this well, but it's better to be humble about it and get to work. emoticon

Self-regulation (same book above)
  • Possible selves are more likely to be effective in this self-regulatory function when they provide concrete and detailed future images linked with strategies that connect current behaviors to future states and when they do not feel contradictory to important social identities.
  • Possible selves are unlikely to regulate behavior if the future does not feel salient (standing out), the present does not feel linked to the future, or one does not believe one's actions have any impact on the future and if discrepancies between one's current and future selves are not salient.
  • When the present is salient, focus is likely to be on current consequences of action, including both hedonic potential (pleasant taste, satisfaction).
  • When the future feels real, it looms large in the sense that it grabs attention and resources. When the future is salient, current hedonic potential and links to the past should be less consequential for behavior choice than making progress toward one's future goals.
  • [For balance] Positive possible selves can be coupled with "balanced" feared possible selves in the same domain.
  • Positive goals alone are not enough to sustain motivation, and that to provide reminders of what one has to lose, one's feared possible selves are also needed.
  • Kahneman and Tversky noted that losses loom psychologically larger than gains so that, all things being equal, individuals should be more motivated to avoid losses than to attain gains of similar sizes, and situations in which losses are possible should be more eye-catching than situations in which gains are possible.
  • When a desired future is completely unachievable or out of one's hands completely, cuing possible selves should not influence motivation.
  • One way to undermine motivation is to provide too many concrete markers of goal progress.
  • Another way to undermine motivation is to provide very clear information that second chances are possible. Things that can be done again do not feel as consequential, even though, most goals are attained only through repeated as opposed to single choices.
  • Knowing for sure that one will have the chance to do the right thing again later reduces the chance that one will do it now (or later).
  • When told that they would be able to make the choice again later, participants opted for the short-term pleasure more often than when they perceived the choice as non-repeating.
  • Controllability refers to the belief that one's own actions can change the course of future events. The association between control beliefs and willingness to take action to improve one's situation has been demonstrated across a range of outcomes including well-being and physical health, and academic outcomes. Willingness to take action to improve one's future is more likely if one believes that outcomes are within one's control.
  • Strategies: Imagining becoming a doctor can only improve the chances of actually becoming one if this distal (feeling distant) possible self is linked to current steps and more proximal possible selves. Persistent goal pursuit involves involves a series of steps, and the more distal the goal, the less clearly linked current steps may be to distal future goals and the greater the need for linkage to detailed proximal possible selves. Vague, general possible selves lacking behavioral strategies cannot function to guide self-regulation because they provide neither a specifict picture of one's goals nor a road map of how to reduce discrepancies between the present and one's future possible selves. 
  • Strategies need to include ways of dealing with relevant others, including friends, classmates, and teachers who may reduce or increase chances of goal attainment.
  • Strategies to attain a possible self are likely to be cued frequently when the possible self converges or meshes well with other aspects of self-concept, important social identities, or contextually relevant stereotypes about one's in-group.
  • When the future is taken into account, long-term outcomes are more likely to be pursued.
  • It is not how far chronologically into the future a possible self is, but rather how psychologically proximate or distal it feels that should influence the self-regulatory impact of a possible self.
  • More abstract images of the possible self that are not linked to detailed strategies should result in feeling that the future is distal, so that one does not really need to engage in any action in the present even though the future goals are valued.
  • Once a feeling of psychological closeness is cued, then participants focus on how to carry out a task rather than focusing on whether we should carry it out.
  • Psychological distance focuses participants on whether the task is of value rather than on how the task would fit into one's daily schedule. Being able to see a goal as both temporarily close (the future starts "now") and also distal (the future has meaning) should produce optimal striving in terms of both how and why a goal should be attained.
  • Eg. There can be competition within one's person between the aspiring bon vivant who argues for going out and the aspiring scholar who argues for focusing on studies.
  • Handling multiple goals is likely to involve tradeoffs between working on one goal and working on other goals. Because goals compete for time and resources, success in making progress toward a goal may result in shift of effort to another self-goal that seems more in need of one's time and energy.
  • When progress toward goal attainment is slower than expected, increased time and resources should be diverted from other goal pursuits to improve goal attainment pace and likely success.
  • Because sustaining self-regulatory effort over time is difficult, difficulty may be misinterpreted as evidence that the possible self is not a reasonable goal and should be abandoned.
  • Difficulty and expended effort can also serve as reminders that the goal is important, and therefore effort should be continued without reduction in effort.
  • "Is this important to me?" or "Do I care about this goal?" In these cases, feelings of fatigue and difficulty should suggest that one really cares and is willing to put in the needed effort.
  • Promotion focus entails eagerly working toward positive outcomes, whereas prevention focus entails vigilantly working to avoid negative outcomes. Primed or chronic promotion focus is associated with eagerness, risk taking, and sensitivity to the presence or absence of gains. Primed or chronic prevention focus is associated with minimizing risk and sensitivity to the presence or absence or losses.
  • Promotion focus makes salient the possibility of success, encouraging action and chance taking. Conversely, prevention focus makes salient the possibility of failure, encouraging caution and deliberation. Pursuing goals in ways that match the regulatory orientation of the goal feels good and increases motivational strength. Eagerly pursuing success and vigilantly avoiding failures may feel right in a way that vigilantly seeking success and eagerly avoiding failure does not. Motivation increases when chronic or momentarily primed prevention or promotion focus is matched with prevention or promotion-focused strategies.
  • Self-regulation may improve when possible selves are more likely to be pursued when strategies are promotion focused, involving pusuit of success, whereas feared possible selves may be more likely to be pursued when strategies are prevention focused, involving vigilant care to avoid failures.
  • In risky contexts, discrepancy between current and feared possible selves should be accessible and salient. Conversely, in low-risk contexts, discrepancies between current and positive desired selves should be accessible and salient.
  • Motivation to study and hours set aside for academics increased when context and possible self-focus matched; thinking of school as risky and of one's feared possible selves improved effort as did thinking of school as safe and of one's expected possible selves.
  • When possible selves are balanced, individuals select strategies that both increase the likelihood of becoming like the positive possible self and decrease the likelihood of becoming like the negative possible self, thereby focusing self-regulation and broadening effort.
  • When possible selves are balanced, individuals select strategies that both increase the likelihood of attaining the positive possible self and decrease the likelihood of becoming like the negative possible self. In this way, balance narrows focus to those strategies that can serve both goals or at least are not likely to undermine one of the goals. By focusing on both the positive and the potential negative consequences of goal pursuit, self-regulatory effort is bolstered.
  • Possible selves and strategies are thus likely to be cued whether the context is perceived as high risk (relevant to feared possible selves) or low risk (relevant to expected possible selves).
  • Academic improvement should occur if school-focused possible selves were balanced, linked to detailed strategies, contextually cued and perceived congruent with important social identities, and if difficulty in pursuing these possible selves was interpreted to mean that doing well in school was an important self-goal.

So the process model can be put together like this:

  1. An expected or feared possible self is cued in context. (If not then you focus on the present) 
  2. The gap between the present and possible self is clear. (If not then you focus on what feels good in the present) "Where am I and where do I want to be?"
  3. The possible self seems attainable or preventable. (If not you then feel bad and stop following the goal) "Can it be attained or prevented?"
  4. The possible self is linked to a feared self. (If not you find excuses to do it later) "What is the feared future?"
  5. The possible self is linked to strategies. (If not then you are just wishing and won't act) "What is the detailed strategy?"
  6. The possible self and strategies feel congruent with important social identities. (If not you won't act) "Is this what I want to be?"
  7. Subjective experience of effort is interpreted as meaning that the goal is important. (If not then the effort feels like the goal is "not for me") "What makes this so important that I put effort into it?"
  8. Persistent self-regulation. (Or nothing happens)
The congruence part is a big one for me as an INFP. If it doesn't match personal values I do it half-heartedly. The effort part also makes me think I'm not good enough and something easier becomes salient. The feared self is the biggest blindspot. An ESTJ is probably using that a lot. "I don't want to end up like this" for an example. This helps delay gratification.

Okay I'll try this with a little more detail. Nothing's easy.

RE: Myers Briggs Adventure
Answer
12/8/17 1:59 AM as a reply to Richard Zen.
What I'm finding is working for me in trying ESTJ functions (Thinking Extraversion/Sensing Introversion), for studying, is making an Excel sheet with a chart on testing answers and my progress based on % of correct answers. This provides a plan for me, and then I use Sensing Introversion to test and verify the answers. How meditation is helping me is by just enjoying the concentration as a home base and only allowing thoughts related to reading and testing myself.

With this practice I can see a whole lot of distracting thoughts that I have to let go of and even mental celebration thoughts that threaten to dislodge the concentration as I get better at my answers. John Beebe says you have to develop a shadow function, with the weak conscious function you want to develop, and that for me would be Sensing Extraversion. Just being with the breath and enjoying it and engaging in the testing practice, makes it easier to just sit and test and verify. My intuition can get bored so keeping track of the level of relaxation and pleasure of the breath gives it something to make preferences with. Intuition loves preferences but if it takes you off track then make the preferences more about how skillfully I'm enjoying the breath so I stay at home base.